Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Some thoughts on a few events/characters

There are some things, that don't really add up or just make me wonder a bit

Firstly: Halsin
No, this is not another discussion about his behavior in act 3, but about his abilities as a druid (it might bleed in a bit in act 3, since THAT scene, we all saw in the PfH, showcase it a bit too). The guy stayed a bear and waited to be rescued by the tadpole gang, while he had the ability to turn into a mouse and just vanished through one of the many crevices at any time. So why did he play the damsel in distress? To me, it looks, like he isn't always in control of his wildshapes like other druids are. The infamous bear scene showcases that too.
Plus he could have gotten out much sooner from the goblin camp, since he seemed to know, that things are not good at the grove. All that makes him look a bit incompetent to be honest.


Gortash and plot reveal
If you don't go through the game blindly, you find a lot of notes between Ketheric and Gortash in Moonrise Tower, detailing their whole plan with the Elder Brain. So why do our characters make surprised Pikachu faces, when he and the plan of the three Stooges is revealed at the end of act 2? I was also a bit sad, that Karlach had nothing to say to those letters concerning Gortash and his involvment. I know, she and Wyll got pretty much sidelined, but still, at least the last scene should play out differently, if you find the letters and already know everything. I think, even Orin isn't a surprise, if you save Minthara in Moonrise, since she tells you about her recruitment, if I remember correctly.

Squire
This is more a wish to save the best girl. When you talk to her, she won't be present during the Ketheric fight and if you show her Scratches ball, her reaction is heart crushing, so I really wish, we could recruit her to camp, so she might meet Scratch and Owlbert and be reunited with Isobel. She deserves a happy end. Maybe even one, where she feels loved again before Isobel guides her gently to her afterlife or so. I mean right now, I headcanon, that one of the harpers adopt her, but still, it feels unfished.

Meeting again in the city
Why can't I have those promised drinks with the saved halfling lady from Ethels lair, Rugan, Lakrissa and Beks and her husband? I was looking forward to it, but instead, you have to most likely kill Rugan, if you go a certain route and want to recruit a certain person, the halfling lady barely recognises you and only Beks and Dannis and Lakrissa acknowledge you.
It would have been nice to just have some happy reunions there. It's nice to see some of the kids again and Gandrel (though his story is heartbreaking, poor guy), Alfira and Lakrissa, Rolan and siblings and of course our best friend Barcus, but still, I would have loved more interactions.
And I probably don't have to mention, that I feel the lack of content for Wyll in the city jarring. He is the dukes son and no one batters an eyelash on his new appearance and his general return. I see wasted potential for recruiting nobles for our course through him. You don't even need the rumoured upper city for that, but some talks at the coronation would be enough. It also doesn't have to be something big, but maybe, you get a note from a noble with hints of stuff, you tried to find out or another group of allies for the final fight.

I agree with all those points.

The uncommented notes about the plot bothered me most, when playing Gale's Origin and having Lae'zel in my group. When playing as Gale, discovering what lies at the Heart of the Absolute is your act 2 quest, but it does not update if you find the book that spells out the plot, tells you exactly what the Heart of the Absolute is and introduces the Crown of Karsus to the story. I would have loved to discuss its content with my companions - or at least with Tara. In the same vein, it feels odd that Lae'zel does not react to a document that proofs all her suspicions have been right.

It would be lovely to get a conclusion for Squire. The way I interpret the scene in which she recognises Isobel's scent on you, she is reminded of what life used to be like "before" and stays aways from the fight because of it. It would be lovely to give her story some sort of conclusion - at least have her hang out in the main hall for final farewell.

Many of the long act 1 story arcs are a little wonky in act 3. I would have expected the halfling lady from Ethel's lair to jump in and speak up for us when the gang first meets the other survivors, or get actual intel on how to deliver the missing shipment - in case you take over the job from Rugan (sorry Rugan). I hope that some of these situation will be addressed by the new lines of dialogue that have been promised in the pre-patch notes.

As for Halsin, I was recently talking with someone about him and how the fandom at large seems to see him as this wise and relaxed character, while I can't help to only find him lethargic and a tad incompetent.

He doesn't WANT to get out though. Not until the Goblin Leaders have been dealt with. That's literally why he stays there if you free him, he literally says he won't leave until the Goblin Leaders are dead.

His whole "Turn into a bear and get captured" thing was part of his plan. He wanted to be kept there so he'd have time to formulate a plan to take out the leaders. Yes, he could leave at any time (Not only by turning into a mouse, but he also shows he can bust down the door to his cell without issue), but his concern is to protect the grove by removing the goblin threat.


Aye. I feel it's super strange that I can find all these notes and Ketheric's hidden journal and literally no-one reacts to any of it...

Meanwhile, Lae'zel has reactions to every one of the chronicles of Orpheus and characters react to the note in the Mountain Pass mentioning Wyll's father being taken to Moonrise... So it's not like they don't have reactivity to anything you read. It's just the major plot points that simply get ignored for no reason.

Exactly to all of this. I never understood, why people feel that Halsin is wise and competent, he does seem to be pretty incompetent to be honest and I think he is an awful leader.

I really hope for more reactivity in act 3 with patch 7. I was looking for the hag survivor in the Elfsong tavern and honestly would have loved, if she would have been teh one, inviting me to the hag survivors meetings, if she is alive. And if not, you still have those posters throughout the city. But it would have been a nice touch.

But yes, the uncommented notes are my biggest peeves here. There should have been more reactivity to that. I just found the letter from Gortash about the Crown of Karsus again with Gale in my party and there was nothing. No comment from Karlach that Gortash is in part responsible for her getting tadpoled. I thought, there should be another rage outburst, that he messed with her life twice now at least.
And poor Wyll, he desperately needs more reactivity everywhere.

See, I don't understand this reasoning. He could have get some intel and vamoose. He has druids cpable of fighting back in the grove, Zevlor is a paladin and can fight too, plus he obviously could have sent for reinforcments to the other circles. There was no need to stay as long as he did to be honest. And getting caught like that is not much of a plan imo.

Plus, as some friend pointed out: If it really was Halsins plan to get captured and leave poor Liam to his fate, that is pretty cold. Plus he couldn't have known, that Liam would be so sturdy under torture to not reveal teh Groves location, so that would have been a gamble.

Except putting the grove in danger by making them go into a fight is literally the opposite of what he wants...

Zevlor is a Paladin but he's not part of the Grove. In fact, Zevlor is literally in the middle of being kicked OUT of the Grove, so why would he fight to save to people who are literally sending him (As well as the rest of the tieflings) to his death?

How long would it take for the reinforcements to arrive from other Circles? Would they even care? The grove is simply home to a small number of Druids. They're not a major circle, how much sense does it make to go against an army just for a small group of Druids who could just relocate to somewhere not under threat.

He needed to stay until the threat was dealt with. Being "Caught" helps with that, since it allows him to stay inside the camp easily, thus he can do things like sneak around at night to find out their plan and listen to the guards around his cell and when the time comes he can surprise them from within (The time being either when you free him or when the camp moves out for its attack and thus the defences are lowered - Of course, the latter ends up with him arriving too late to help defend the Grove during the attack).

Getting the intel and getting out of the camp... Doesn't help him. Since no matter what the intel provides, it does jack at helping him take down the leaders unless he literally goes back into the middle of the camp where the leaders are... So why bother leave in the first place. With the idea being he kind of wants to simply assassinate the leaders, rather than to fight the entire Goblin Army. So waiting until an opportune moment (Such as if they come to interrogate him) and then taking them out is preferable to getting a handful of people together to try and face the army head on.

Honestly, the only odd thing in the whole scenario, is why the tieflings are still being kicked out of the Grove when Halsin returns and the Goblin Camp has been dealt with.

Like, the reason they're being kicked out is because they're bringing the threat of the goblins to the grove (And in part due to Kagha wanting to do the Rite of Thorns which will kill any non-Druids, as a means to protect the Grove from the goblins). Without the threat of the Goblins and without Kagha being in charge any more (Thus the Rite of Thorns is stopped irregardless of your intervention), there's no reason for the tieflings to leave (Except that one annoying Druid who hates everyone who isn't a Druid). Yet, they still do... Maybe they decided they want to leave of their own volition after getting used to the idea of making their way to Baldur's Gate? But ALL of them deciding this seems strange, you'd think a few of them might want to stay.


That is predicated on Halsin knowing that Liam was captured. Halsin went off on his own when they got ambushed, so there's no certainty that he knew that anyone else was captured. He may have figured he was enough of a distraction that everyone else got away.

He might have learned about it after the fact, but by then it's too late.

See my second post about Liam. And the tieflings are not being kicked out anymore, they wanted to leave for BG, they just sought shelter from the goblin and gnoll trhead, that you have dealt with. After that, they leave on their own.

They are not kicked out of the Grove, they never wanted to stay in the Grove forever. They just took refuge there when being ambushed on the road to Baldur's Gate because they had been kicked out of Elturel. They just want to stay in the Grove until the road is clear for them to travel again. (I was too slow!)

Apart from that I agree with fylimar, being captured and then staying in the dungeon as target practice isn't much of a plan - and it never was the plan. He leaves the Grove in the worst possible moment to follow Aradin and an old fancy of his (which he didn't seem to have done anything about during the last century), getting captured or gathering intel wasn't the motivation, he went with Aradin to learn about the Nightsong and and a way to lift the Shadowcurse. He tells you as much during one of your conversations after freeing him, the morning after the party iirc.

Liam is someone I would have liked to meet again too. He seems to have been the only nice guy in Aradin's lot.

Funnily enough, the guy with the locket: if you get the kid to tell, why he took the locket, that guy tells the kid to keep it and gets all emotional. So he at least seem to have a bit of a heart. He also thanks you for interfering.

And yes, Liam would have been great to meet again. Maybe even as part of the tiefling group, since I can't see him staying with Aradins group after what happened there.

I also am wondering, what happened with Abdirak, the Loviatan. It would have been interesting to see him involved in both the Ilmater murder case and the Banite part of the Absolute plot in one way or another, since Loviatar is tied to Bane and has beef with Ilmater.

It's similar to the situation with Shadowheart and the Dark Justiciars. In Grymforge there are dead DJ's everywhere, their statues and armour, documents and letters. And this prompts comments like "I wonder if this is related to dark justiciars" and '"we must keep looking out for traces".

After talking to Raphaël in Shares' caress where he bluntly reveals why he wants the crown of Karsus, I would normally have had a word with Mizora in our camp and tell her all. So she could help us into hell and steal that Orphic hammer. Unfortunately we don't have that option.

I also find it strange that no one takes a clue from the steel watcher's comments on Karlach's heart. If the Gondians can make a stable version with better material and advanced technology, then the ironhand gnomes should also be able to do that also. The logical ending for Karlach, IMO, would be then to let her take refuge in the House of Hope, while we get either the Gondians or Wulbren to create a new heart for her that is stable in the material plane.

To be honest, I guess I either ignored or missed most of these points so far, especially inappropriate miming or missing dialogue options. There are several other threads about it, so I'm not going into detail. When it was about something I as a player already picked up from documents/context/knowing D&D, or when my Tav being gith/necromancer missed things that probably were in her school slates, I simply assumed she knew these things and didn't pay too much attention to the mimic art or even dialogue. Also, when the expression seemed totally out of character, like NecroGith-Tav, Lae'zel, Astarion and Karlach - all covered in blood and zombie innards - giving the Graveyard Montarch this shocked look when she says something mildly morbid about welcoming death. That cracked me up every time!

In Baldur's Gate 3, the passing of time is very strange indeed. It only ever seems to consistently advance around Tav while almost everybody else is stuck in loops that have to work for a wide spectrum of Tavs, narrative tempos and player expectations. Sometimes, the game gives a time frame, but for how long a character has been at a certain point in the world often depends on how you as a player read it. How long had Aradin been away before Halsin followed, do they say it anywhere? From what I read, Halsin dies if you proceed to the Mountain Pass or the Underdark before freeing him. I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the game, but I always assumed his "extra" Cave Bear wildshape along with his scars came from him being a closet lycanthrope, so those goblin pelters were probably doing a good job keeping him angry and wildshaped so he can't escape. It would also explain why his instincts and visions got the better of him and maybe clouded his judgement. He says multiple times that he isn't very good as a leader.

As for NPCs not getting closure, I could also compile a list the size of the Reithwin Necrology. Bex's husband didn't survive Moonrise in my adventure, so I had a bitter ending for her, but we never find out for most of the others. Do you reckon Zlorb moved to the Hallowleaf cottage? Who I missed most at Reunion Camp were Sina'zith, Brinna and Kerz. Sure, they were dead already when they joined. Some of Sina's equipment dropped into Tav's, so we could at least put the Steelwatcher helmet on a barrel and toast to her, but at least a one-liner from Withers or other memento mori would have been nice. I know many see hirelings as disposable, but I had a lot of fun playing with classes I didn't have in the group otherwise and while they only took part in specific missions, I tweaked their appearance multiple times and probably should have gotten them statues at the circus.

What I'm struggling with about Karlach's ending may be a D&D version thing. Perhaps "the Hells" in 5e aren't as tough as a place as Baator used to be in AD&D Planescape (2e), but from my own knowledge as a player, Karlach is dead right at the closure of Get the Orphic Hammer that she'd become a target for each and every devil and every other infernal monstrosity if she returned to the House of Hope to stay alive; accompanied by Wyll with drained powers and a slightly deranged cleric they wouldn't last long. But, apparently the banks of the Styx are now a nice place to go for walkies with your pet wolf. I would have loved to give the Netherstones to Omeluum and get Karlach a fixed heart and mutton chops, at least for Reunion Camp. I totally agree about the Steelwatch lead and was a bit disappointed that I couldn't find anything in the Foundry, even though we had infiltrated it thrice before blowing it up and got most of the Gondians through the ordeal alive.

Plans change.

Seemingly, after finding out about the goblin army and its leaders, Halsin's plan changed to dealing with this and the threat it posed to the Grove at some point after leaving and by the time they were discovered.

Both Aradin and Liam will tell you he ran off on his own at the point where they were ambushed. Meaning, Halsin's motivation was not to escape at that point. Otherwise he would have stood his ground and helped Adarin's group escape.

Thus one can conclude that Halsin's idea was twofold: 1) Be a distraction for Aradin's group, by turning into a bear and running deeper into temple. Prompting the goblins to focus on him. 2) To somehow deal with the goblin leaders that were inciting the goblins to attack locals and as such were threatening the Grove (It's likely he and Aradin's group had spotted Priestess Gut and heard about Minthara and Ragzlin)

Being captured effectively accoplishes part 1. He was a distraction, enough that at least 2 of the 3 members of Aradin's group got away. Meanwhile, he is kept relatively close to the goblin leaders within the camp allowing him to potentially accomplish part 2 (In which he succeeds when Minthara attacks, when he shows up post-attack he has apparently killed Ragzlin and Gut - Though I don't recall if I ever actually checked in a run where I decided to do the Grove attack)

Halsin's reason to go to the temple, was to find out why all these tadpoled creatures appeared from everywhere and converged to that place. (Nettie's words)
So he had to find a way to infiltrate the temple and get that information. Joining Arradin was probably a way to do that. (Let the adventurers attrack the attention of the guards while he could sneak in)
Once inside and captured he would find out who the leaders were and then probably decided they needed to be eliminated ASAP.

You can do everything in the Underdark, including Grymforge, before saving Halsin, he won't die. You jsut have to stay in the area, so the monastery is not possible.


Taril: I still think, that was not his plan. He just got caught. And as Anska said, he explained, what his plan was after you free him.

He quite literally states his plan when you talk to him in the dungeon.

He quite literally states he won't leave until the goblin leaders are dead because the Grove is in danger while they're directing the goblin army.

It may not have been his initial plan for why he went with Aradin and his group, but it became his plan by the time they were in the goblin camp and were ambushed.

Just assuming, you are right (I free him, when the dealers are dealt with normally and he tells me a whoel different story about finding the entrance to teh Underdark), it just would show even more, he is pretty incompetent. "Yeah, I just stay prisoner, until someone, who might never come, deals with those pesky leaders." He had no way to know, that Tav/Durge would come in with the tadpole gang to help him out with this. The better way would have been, to get out and warn everyone.

*Sigh*

And AGAIN I'll mention, if you go with Minthara to attack the Grove, he also will free himself, take out Dror Ragzlin and Priestess Gut and return to the Grove.

Meaning he capitalizes on their forces massing outside the Grove (Thus not being in the Goblin Camp) to take out their leaders.

Showing that he's waiting for an opportunity to strike, whatever it may be. Whether it's someone coming in and attacking or some mobilization of troops.

The only fault with this scenario is that he arrives AFTER the battle for the Grove is over, so he doesn't protect the Grove when he capitalizes on the lack of force in the camp. But it's not as if he has much in the way of options. Especially since as long as the leaders exist, attacks on the Grove won't stop. So it doesn't matter if he's there to stop 1 attack, if he doesn't take out the leaders there'll just be more and more.

Also, "Warn everyone"? Warn everyone of what? They ALREADY know about the Goblins, that's literally the reason why Kagha is doing the Rite of Thorns and why the Tieflings are seeking refuge...

If you free him before all the leaders are dealt with, he tells you that he can't leave before they are and asks for your help. You can then tell him to sit tight until you have dealt with the leaders or ask him to come along and help. It all doesn't sound much like a plan, he got captured while wanting to get something else out of the trip and now he refuses to leave until the leaders are dealt with. There is nothing in the dialogue that suggests he had some grand plan how to take them down, he just sits in his cell until the pointy pebbles hurt too much.

As for him breaking out when you defend the Grove but don't kill the other leaders: I haven't checked if they survive in such a scenario but I assume it since Ketheric has dialogue about having talked to Ragzlin about the adventuring party.

They know about goblins roaming the area, they don't know about how big the cult is, or the leaders. And even if he frees himself and waits until you leave with Minthara and teh forces, it is still a stupid plan. He could have been killed beforehand. He is entirely relying on Tav to free him or thin out the forces however.
I get, that you like the character, but he really is not as clever as you make him out to be per proof from the game. And anyway this thread wasn't supposed to be about Halsin alone, tehre are different points, so maybe just let's agree to disagree here and move on. I don't want to destroy your headcanon of wise and clever Halsin, if that is how you see it.



Ido58

I do agree about not being able to get Mizora to help you against Raphael. I don't think, she has any form of loyality for her. He might reside in Avernus, but seems to be not tied in any form to Zariel.

And yes, not being able to adress, what that steelwatcher said about Karlachs heart is sad. Even if you only have an additional dialogue with the Gondians and maybe at the reunite party a letter, that they are close to fixing Karlachs heart. It would have been nice.