Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Disappointed in Larian

This is a bit of my sidebar, but I have to agree that despite what Larian says, the Emperor was not meant to exist. The voice actor said he was only cast about 8 months before release, and he had already been working on other voices for the game. Theres also just weird stuff about the character’s story that don’t make sense and were pretty clearly made hastily. The emperor’s backstory being tied to Moonrise Towers feels too hard to fit in with the established Ketheric timeline, and the situation with the emperor telling you not to go to the Creche and the conversation that happens with him in the prism there feel incongruous with other parts of the plot.

Having played a lot of Early Access I feel like I’ve got a good idea of what the intended good/evil paths were which we no longer see in the game. I think the old dream guardian likely would have ended up being a manifestation of the Absolute itself, urging you to engage with the old tadpole system of being given gifts (there are still lines in game about this even though the mechanics were totally changed). Building off the “evil path” of Act 1 where you raid the grove, I feel like an Evil Playthrough would’ve led to you further infiltrating the cult at Moonrise towers and then working with the elderbrain instead of against it to take out the Dead Three’s chosen and take over the world yourself. The good path likely would’ve been mostly the same, but with Orpheus being a more important character and the one providing your protection directly. The Emperor was sort of just shoved in the game as a band-aid to wrap together the new tadpole mechanics and the changed story of the Absolute.

I would really love a definitive edition that realizes Larian’s orginal visions for the game, but they seemingly don’t have an intention of ever making one because it would be a pretty big timesink for them when they’re trying to develop a whole new game, and would invalidate a lot of a story people already love dearly. I really get the motivations to fully move on from the game, but I think if enough people started a movement to tell them this is what we want, we could eventually convince them to change their minds after their next project.

If this is true then I wonder what caused them to change it, because I think it's a lot more interesting than the main story we got. The original dream figure being the Absolute would make more sense since they show you the image of the player ruling over a burning city to tempt you into using the power. I just don't know why they would lie about it.

There definitely used to be more consequences for using the tadpole than a dice roll. In the scene where you free Nere in the grymforge he used to be able to take control of you and your companions if you had used the tadpole too many times. Astarion had voiced dialogue about what it felt like to be under someone's control again.

But the Absolute vs Orpheus would have been a lot more compelling to me than the Emperor storyline. BG3 is one of my favorite games of all time but that's definitely not because of the main story which is just kind of mid imo.

And yeah I don't see them retconning the Emperor and rewriting the story to that extent even if they were to continue working on the game, and even if the Emperor wasn't always a part of things. I don't know of a game story that has ever been changed so fundamentally post release before. So that's just unfortunate if true.

But there's still a lot they can rework. I'd love for them to work Ketheric as a companion back in. My main gripe is with Gortash and Orin's quests though. The way the ultimatum with Orin's captive is handled is just terrible in pretty much every way, for example. There's no urgency surrounding it and it has no relevancy to the story or any of the quests. It's not a part of anything to the point where it might as well not have happened. The game certainly treats it like it didn't happen anyway.

I think there should be an option/questline to work with Gortash to rescue Orin's captive if you don't want to follow her demands and kill him first. She tells you she will kill the person she takes if you step foot in her domain without killing Gortash but does nothing if you blatantly disregard this. It's contrived because they want to give the player the freedom to do the quests in whichever order they please without facing consequences. But instead of writing a story and questline to provide a well written path to disobey her that doesn't lead to the death of her victim, the game just goes on as if she isn't holding a person hostage. There should be a way to save the victim without killing Gortash, but not unless you agree to work with him to do so. If you step into the Undercity while she still has the hostage and Gortash is alive she should kill them, unless you've found a way to thwart that outcome.

This way you're given freedom and multiple choices, but not without consequence. The way it's structured currently is lazy, senseless, and contrived. And this is the kind of thing I'm referencing when I say the third act is lacking in content and poorly structured.

I think the reason the potential story I mentioned never saw the light of day is simply due to a lack of time and resources to be put into developing it. There was clearly entire years put into the story of Act 1, which is polished to the point of perfection after being available in EA, but I think they put so much effort into this that they couldn’t put as much work into the rest of the game. Theres still some vestiges of what likely would have been the “evil path” visible in Act 2, as you can infiltrate the cult and do things like help Marcus and Balthazar, but those choices ultimately funnel you into the same climax of fighting Ketheric that all the other choices do. All these ideas probably just got scrapped because Larian realized that based on EA, evil playthroughs were of course much less common, so they consolidated their efforts into one straightforward heroic path that gives some wiggle room for you to make individually evil choices. Their need to rewrite the later parts of the game seemingly bled into the earlier parts as well, as we lose the original tadpole power system and it became a more neutral mechanical system as opposed to an integral part of the story. It even looks like some of the ideas of taking over the cult and joining the absolute were recycled into the story of the Dark Urge and their connection to the Elder Brain and the chosen’s plot.

I really wish there was some way for the community to band together to tell Larian that more BG3 is what the community wants above anything else. Theres so much that could still be done with this story that it feels like a waste for Larian to wash their hands of it permanently. People online complained enough about the Justice League film that the Snyder Cut was released, but the problem we face is that the version of BG3 we received was already praised instead of hated. I don’t want to keep going on and on about my disappointment to the point it bothers other people, but I feel like I’ll never be able to drop this subject because I’m so passionate about the game that I would sell my soul to see it at it’s full potential.

There isn't really because large parts of the community showers Larian with awards and drools over bear sex.
And even if you could gather enough that care about the core gameplay and story it is too late now. Larian has quite clearly communicated that they don't care about their product.
The only thing that you can do now is change your review to negative and more importantly don't buy Larians next game so that their game after that might be better again.

You'd firstly need to prove, unequivically, that this is even the case for even the majority of the community.

I get you're personally invested into wanting more BG3, but you alone don't speak for the whole community (Nor does any individual).

Then you'd have to prove to the community, that shackling Larian to a project they outright no longer wish to work on, will actually produce something good instead of more half-assed slop like Act 3...


Well, there's good news. Due to being part of a major IP that is regularly contracted out, there literally CAN be more done with the story without Larian's involvement.

Since WotC owns everything in the game and the story, they can literally hire someone else to do BG3 DLC or a BG4 that picks up at the end of BG3 to continue the story.

It's not like it's Divinity where if Larian says they'll never do another Divinity game that means there will literally never be another Divinity game unless they sell the IP to someone else.

I have no means to verify if what you claim is true or not, so for the sake of the argument I will assume that you are 100% correct. You are criticising the end product here, not whenever the game is finished or not. That a game has wonky narrative beats doesn't make it unfinished.

That a scope of the title is reduced, or that a big chunk of the game is build in a relatively short amount of development while previous work is discarted - that's unfortunately, part of the course. It seems that there is only that much that one can pre-plan a video game. That's why I treat any pre-release promises (especacially early ones) as just expression of intent, rather than a promised feature of the final product. No doubt Larian planned on having stronger consequences to using tadpole. No doubt narrative was planned to be tighter. Perhaps, as you claim, the Emperor wasn't part of the story and was added later to tie together loose threads. But that's what Larian chose to do to finish the game.

Where Larian seems to be doing things differently than some other studios (like Obsidian for example) is that they seem to be working from the beginning and going forward, rather than working on what is supposed to be a more complex middle part, and once they know the game better branch out to the rest of it. But with how Larian does EA, and structures their games, that is just how they do things.

On a side note, I really enjoyed Double-Fine's documentary about making of Psychonauts2: PsychoOdyssey. It's long, but it is a good watch. And personally, I was surprised how much of a troubled the project was, considering how well the final product end up being.

And now I am thinking of Larian making BG3, while upscaling to a riddiculous degree, building new tech and new studios and making a cRPG on a budget that no one has seen before. That some miscalculations were made along the way should shock no one.

I don't think anyone's talking about shackling them to the project. I understand that they're burned out and the quality of work would reflect that if they continued working on it now. This was notable to me just with the new romance "ending scenes" where all the companions get the same recycled animations.

But the final act of the game is... I guess I'm becoming a broken record here but it's poorly structured and the reason it's so easy for people to believe there was hastily cut content is because it feels so patchy. Especially when compared to the rest of the game. The drop in quality is immediately apparent. And this is far from an uncommon criticism.

If there was some kind of organized community effort to present this feedback to Larian I don't think it would be without support because the game has had a passionate online player base since early access. Larian has been very clear that they don't intend to work on the game again, and I don't see that changing anytime soon because they are so excited to move forward, but maybe they'll consider working on a definitive edition after some time has passed.

I think there would have to be a concise and consistent list of criticisms. I truly hate "petitions" for things like this because they feel so cheesy and silly. And while Larian is mainly going to be seeing (deserved imo) praise right now, after the hype has died down critical analysis of the game might become more common.

Would another gaming company be allowed to add content to an existing game, even if it's in the form of dlc? A separate game with the same characters is one thing, but I would imagine the game is still Larian's.

My issues are with the existing game and things within it I would like to see reworked because I think they were constructed poorly. Whether or not another gaming company would create a game with these characters in the future is separate issue.

You are correct in assuming that WotC itself can't do anything with the product that is BG3. The Intellectual Property within it belongs to them in all legal senses, so they are the only ones able to make new content using them in an official capacity, but the game Baldur's Gate 3 and the engine on which it runs are legally owned by Larian Studios, so they are the only ones who can make any dlc or changes to the game unless they willingly bring in another studio to assist them.

At this rate, I'm not even sure that waiting a few years and then opening discussion with Larian is going to accomplish anything. Given that they're a completely independent company, they're fully making all of their decisions on their own without any external company guiding them. The only person making executive decisions for them is Swen, and he's made it pretty clear that his entire philosophy towards game development doesn't gel with the concept of continued support over an extended period of time. He wants him and his teams to be devoted to a project and pump their passion into it as best as they can, and then when it's in the hands of the public, they make sure it's stable and then call it a day and move onto the next project. I'm sure there's things that even Swen himself wishes could have been in the final version of the game, but he seems to cleave to the idea of "we're proud of what's there and that's good enough for me".

I think the best strategy is to simply be as loud as possible in the present moment before it's too late. It's highly unlikely we'll ever see some of the bigger changes that would benefit this game, as those are shreds of ideas left behind in the development process. I'm going to personally be submitting some things directly through the Larian feedback platform regarding smaller changes that could still feasibly be made in upcoming patches before support of the game is concluded. Beyond that, if things remain unaddressed, it will be in the hands of modders to figure out how to substantially alter the game. Larian certainly hasn't made it easy given that the modding tools are more akin to tabletop dnd homebrew than actual modding tools for a computer game, but people are persistent, so I'm sure we'll get something eventually. I wish I knew the first thing about computer programming so that I could make some mods myself, but alas...

I might as well just put the things I'm going to send to Larian here, just so they're as visible in as many places as possible as constructive feedback and suggestions.

- In Act 1, Companions still have several instances of dialogue following interactions with the Dream Guardian that make reference to mechanics which are no longer in the game. Some minor tweaks here would be much appreciated as the party is no longer receiving gifts from embracing their powers, but are rather consuming tadpoles willingly to gain abilities.
- Karlach: Just some minor scene/new dialogue with Zanner Tobin would really help to tie up the hanging thread of potential cures for Karlach's condition. All the enriched infernal iron in Act 3 and the connection between Karlach and the Steel Watchers raises questions, so just some lines suggesting that Karlach's engine can only be dealt with in Avernus itself because she's a living being would go a long way to make her story feel more believable.
- Wyll: Wyll is still sorely lacking in an ability to make his own decisions in comparison to the other companions. Given his character, he really should have an outcome he will choose on his own in the situation where he initially confronts Karlach, and the scene where he might break his pact with Mizora. The player constantly being the only factor in deciding what he does is likely the main reason why a number of fans believe that he is "boring" or too flat of a character.
- Minthara: Minthara is in need of additional dialogue in Act 3 to make her feel like a full and involved member of the party who cares about what is happening in the story. This is doubly true for her romance storyline, as she does not have any dedicated romance cutscene once you are actually in a relationship, and there are plenty of opportunities for you to have a deeper conversation with her and dive into her innermost feelings (for example, after Orin is defeated).
- Halsin: Unlike Minthara, Halsin's romance story is some of the only content he has in Act 3, and so for players who choose not to pursue a relationship with him, he does not have much to say about anything at all that happens during important moments. He simply needs some more comments and conversations related to things happening in the third act that he might care about.

Except, that's exactly what people are talking about.

The discussion is literally about wanting Larian to go back on their decision, so that they can instead become slaves to BG3 and continue to work on that game and that game alone. (Or at least at the expense of other games)

They've literally expressed desire to no longer work on BG3, trying to make them work on BG3 against their wishes is exactly trying to shackle them to this project.


That would depend on the details of the contract between WotC and Larian.

However, the most common contract is normally "We own literally everything about the game" - Which would mean that they do have access to the game itself and even the engine (But only so far as BG3 itself goes, they won't have rights to use Larian's engine to create new games)

Though, there is the possibility that their actual contract might keep some aspects, like the engine, under Larian's control. Only WotC and Larian know the exact details.

Correct me if I am wrong because a lot of this thread makes me feel like I have lost the plot. There is currently what sounds to be a massive patch being tested, one of the points teased in the highlights posts was additional dialogue for improved reactivity, which seems to be one of the additions desired by this thread. So they are still working on the game and polishing it up, they just said they wouldn't make new content in form of a DLC for it.


I am not sure if that is even an indicator of burn-out but instead of having to finish a massive amount of new animations for a set date (Valentine's week) , which makes recycling some animations so you have something for everyone just more efficient. I am glad they are taking more time with patch 7 and are testing it thoroughly.

I do kind of agree with Anska. The next Patch is a huge one and waiting to see how many goodies we get before voicing further disappointment might not be such a bad idea. They did also say that they wasn't done after Patch 7, what they mean with that i'm not sure, but there might also be more in store for us.

Yes there is patch 7 in the works, with its big features being better evil ending(s?) and modding toolkit, and what I am sure is a ton of smaller tweaks and fixes. However, it seems like it is the last big content patch for the game, with the update 26 stating that:
https://baldursgate3.game/news/community-update-26-evil-endings-new-beginnings_117


It seems like some folks were hoping that in addition to those patches Larian was working on some major overhoul, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I honestly think people should stop asking Larian for more at this stage, I don't think it's to anyone's benefit. Larian has said that they're done, and even if they weren't, I think the problems with this game are too fundamental for Larian to be ableto reaosnably change at this point anyway. If you don't like the game as it is currently, you just don't like the game. And frankly if Larian did go back to change the game, I think that would be a bad decision that would cost irresponsible amounts of time and money for a game that they're ready to be done with and that a truly vast majority of people love as it is. Beyond that, I don't think Larian can actually give people what they want. This is the game Larian wanted to put out. There were aspects to it tht Larian felt needed to be polished and tweaked, but I think that the fundamental bones of the game are as Larian wants it to be, and that includes the shambles of a story it has.

No people should keep asking and demanding changes so that those demands cut through the flood of praises and nsfw fanfiction and Larian realises they made a mistake.

This. If people want to provide feedback to Larian in a meaningful way, providing it with their next project in mind is the only way to go about it. BG3 is done, it has made tons of money, is acclaimed as a success, and Larian has explicitly stated they are moving on. If people felt it was an undercooked game from the beginning, they shouldn't have hyped it up so much. Most of the changes people want to see would basically require Larian to re-make the game, which is definitely never happening. BG3 is about as stable and finished as it's going to get once Patch 7 is out.

So with that in mind, I think it's more useful to consider what design flaws Larian could try to avoid in their next project, which strengths they should focus on, etc.

Mistakes can be accounted for in the next project. This product is finished and polished to the extent the developer wants. Same goes for acknowledging feedback. If the suggestions are not reasonable from the developer's standpoint - they won't likely be taken into account.

Threads like this prove that there is a lot of passion for the game though. Well deserved, I would say.