Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Make changed/positive facial expressions for Ascendant Astarion kisses optional

Well, someone here was obviously not hurt and rather pleased with the new flavour to this romance path. And they are making the humble request that they would like an option to keep this flavour and being met with repeatedly dismissive rejections of:

1. Just wait

2. Just use mods

3. Your interpretation of your character's romance and how you want to play your game is wrong, you should only interpret this romance path the way I say it should

As another user pointed out, this (and being compared to an arsonist) isn't a very welcoming and respectful way towards a new user who is making a simple request that isn't hurting anyone else.

Edit: Given the explanation provided I acknowledge that the arsonist comment was not intended that way, I am leaving it in here so that it doesn't look like I am trying to wash the post history clean.

What happened to "This is the feedback & suggestions area of the forum, don't start discussions here!" sentiment that was so vehemently advertised in all the other threads about the Asstarion kisses? Someone asked for an option to keep something they liked without denying a change others asked for to them. Probably a bit premature, yes, but no reason to rehash sentiments that have been completely chewed out in several other threads already. Just with the added bonus that now someone who seems to actually enjoy the ascended path and the formerly new animations gets told how they are supposed to feel about the romance.

If the OP wants to ask for changes before seeing the altered animations they're free to do that, and the others are free to post their comments. I'm not responsible for how other people respond to the OP. If you feel they were wronged, there's a report button available.

I stand by my words that it's still too early to tell what the patch will look like. After seeing the preview, I'm afraid the facial animations will make Tav look indifferent and the tense body language will remain unchanged. Then I will still have to rely on mods if I decide to play this game again.


Maybe it has something to with the fact that a mod allowed this forum section to become a discussion area so it seems like everything is fair game now when it comes to Astarion threads?

I understand that some people may like to see such facial expressions on a character, some people even bought the game after patch 6 in order to create a character of their own liking and enjoy seeing such scenes (however, let's not forget about the large number of players who were so offended and disappointed by the game that they quit the game for good, completely disappointed in a company that considers it possible to introduce such near pornographic content into the game as a "Valentine's Day gift"). I don't mean to offend you in any way, your enjoyment of the game is your right, all I'm saying is that many people who simply updated the game were suddenly confronted with triggered traumatic content and suffered emotional damage and abuse from a game they loved and voted for before as "game of the year". Those players who had been victimized by SA/DA in the past were hit particularly hard - the trigger scenes caused them to relive their traumas and triggered PTSD. The gaming magazine GamePro wrote about this in their article Neue Astarion-Küsse in Baldur's Gate 3 wirken verstörend auf Fans und das ist der Grund("New Astarion kisses in Baldur's Gate 3 have a disturbing effect on fans and here's why"). Please note the full warning about disturbing content at the beginning of the article - this indicates that the content has been peer-reviewed. Leaving this content in the official version of the game would oblige the company to put such a warning. Therefore, such scenes should not be present in the official version. You can ask modders to do this, or you can use the extensive new modding tools that were promised in patch 7 to bring these facial expressions back into your game. To do this, you will simply need to replace the keywords that programmatically set your character's emotions during kisses with "scared, sad and pained". These keywords were discovered by modders in the game's code, and they were the ones used to paint the facial expressions of a rape victim on the faces of player characters. I, for example, was only able to play this game again after the Nightingale mod came out, which gives much more joy, and fits the love story of my character and Astarion much better, and I will probably continue to play with it after patch 7. Or with a combined version of this mod with the Happy Faces mod. For many players who choose this romantic path, the mod is better than the original, and that's fine, good thing there is such an option.

The choice that really should have been introduced into the game is the choice between "Gently" and "Let it hurt", because adding the possibility for D/s romance is a really great and pleasing idea for many people, much more interesting and needed than sex with a bear or the idea of a "toxic white abuser", hopefully other developers in the future will also appreciate the possibilities of such romance and there will be more games with content for the BDSM community. But still, I would like to see the inclusion of D/s romance be completely voluntary and desired by the player, rather than forced, because people choose these relationships with joy and desire, rather than, like the Little Mermaid in the fairy tale, sacrificing their voice to the witch, signing a pact that "they like to degrade themselves" and putting their face under slaps, in order to save their beloved from the cruel fate of remaining a spawn forever, and be close to him at least that way. And the rescued prince-Astarion is sure his beloved is enjoying themselves in the process. Maybe I would have liked it though, if indeed in the game itself there was some powerful evil being that had to sign such a pact with, it would have made the possible "abusive narrative" much more interesting and realistic. But still, a "Gently" option with romantic kisses, or a softened option where Astarion is dominant but softer, in a way that would also be suitable for those players who weren't initially ready for a D/s relationship (e.g. when choosing "Let it hurt", Astarion gives that little slap after the bite, but when choosing "Gently" accepts the kiss, and the bite ends with Astarion and Tav passionately kissing) would be ideal and express care for all players. Or, in terms of Tav's emotion choices, a choice between neutral and happy faces. As a person who is very far from loving humiliation, however, I can say that I enjoyed the kneeling kiss with the Happy Faces mod, where my Tav clearly adores Astarion and enjoys giving Astarion pleasure, and is willing to show the middle finger to any social norms and rules while doing so - it's fun. So adding the ability to choose a happy facial expression for Tav would also be a good option to mitigate D/s scenes for those players who didn't originally plan to be submissive in a romantic relationship, as it were - for me personally, D/s scenes are much better received with happy facial expressions, whereas with neutral ones it's still a "mermaid story".

It seems to me that the idea of "toxic white abuser", as well as the idea that the player should suffer if they dare to truly love Astarion and want to see their favorite character happy, comes from the same "Discord shit-posting hole" as the idea of sex with a bear. Unless about the bear former Larian writer Baudelaire Welch explained everything in their lecture and interviews with game magazines. "Discord shit-posting hole" is a quote from the article "How the Baldur's Gate 3 bear ...watershed moment in game history'" . There are more articles on this topic if anyone is interested:

“Baldur's Gate 3 writer labels Ha...ot; wasn't originally a romance option


“Bear sex 'a watershed moment in game history', says Baldur's Gate 3 writer”

It's a bit odd, of course, that the author calls fans of their art "shitposters", come on, maybe it's such a cute joke among themselves in their fanfiction community. But still, shit-posting hole romance stories shouldn't be forced on other people who aren't part of that community. With zoophilia, to everyone's delight, it is, no problem, it's a choice for the player that they can easily ignore. I'd like to do the same with the out of place, "abuser story". Still in "Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion" - a topic for 59 pages, where there is a huge number of posts from different players, explaining all the plot inconsistencies (many thanks to LiryFire, for explaining everything in this thread again in detail!), how bad it is to traumatize real people for the sake of the author's "abuser" ambitions and dictate to the player how to feel like a failure after you naively bought RPGs and was sure that you have a good game in front of you, also in this thread you can also find quite a few posts from people who have never played this way, hate and insult Astarion, and really, 100% agree with KiraMira, they just want to "burn down the neighbor's house". Oh, or else it's ugly - the "toxic white man" must apologize and burn in the finale, while the "strong and independent woman" can only condescend to this "comic character" and become his educator, or "make a mistake", "want freedom", whine and suffer. The capacity for real love and fidelity is something unmodern, of the dinosaur era, obviously, and women and homosexual men with this approach to romance should be immediately silenced, "canceled," made a showy victim (for others to see because it's an "unhealthy relationship"). In the movie industry, a somewhat similar approach in recent years has led to a lot of failed "movie masterpieces", Disney's biggest stock plunge, etc. In the game industry, making the player feel like a failure, making them a victim, imposing an "abusive narrative" is not the best approach either. They experimented, they saw the result, and that's probably enough, because classic good love stories always make people happy, at all times, don't create "toxicity" and hatred, don't offend or traumatize anyone. Larian have always been a good studio making great and fun games, and I believe that will continue to be the case. The change of course to turn the focus towards players rather than "narrative" and "agenda", which I definitely see in the promise of fixing facial expressions in patch 7, is great and very welcome, for which I thank the studio very much. If Larian also add a kiss to Astarion's epilogue, and make their players even more happy (well, really, the patch 5 kiss is cool, don't throw that scene away please!) - that would be great in general, and for me personally it would mean that Larian's next game will have good stories, and I can trust the studio again and remain their fan. I'm all for love, joy and deep sincere romance without toxicity and "abusers"!

OP

Just want to say I think your suggestion is very respectful. Though I personally think other things aside from intimacy could be prioritised and there are perhaps practical limitations, the fact that these animations already exist means there isn't that much work needed to implement them.

You are not playing your game or interpreting your romance path wrong, it is your game and you can enjoy it and your story any way you want. Should these animations make it into the game in the manner that you have requested, I am happy for you to enjoy them.

My response wasn't to say "Just use mods." I expressed my opinion that it's the 'extremes' that should be made available as mods, rather than as the default (as it currently still is with Patch 6 after the Valentine's update).
Also, as far as I'm aware, console players currently still need to wait for mod support in the next patch. Back in February when the extreme changes to the kisses first happened, many people still couldn't use mods and those wouldn't help them.
It also still caused distress and shock to "new" players who weren't aware of it, but this has all already been discussed before in other threads.
I agree with Ametris in her response regarding this as well. It's the developers who should officially fix things while the game is still getting patches, in particular something which came out of nowhere and hurt many.

Larian is of course free to take OP's request into consideration and if they want to take it onboard in the end, they will.


Edit: And to the person who is abusing the Report button, how do you justify reporting perfectly civil posts that are merely expressing their opinions if they don't agree with OP's opinion? I don't care to hear your answer. But oust yourself if you want.

Wait, "former" writer, have they left?

I remember being abit concerned about Larian's next set of companions after reading that lecture (or atleast, your transcription of it).

Let's be honest: people want to leave scared facial expressions not because it deprives them of something in their roleplay, but because it deprives them of using AA's kisses as an argument for him being a rapist and abuser who enjoys Tav's fear.

I've never understood why spawn fans pretend to be AA fans, even though objectively they're not.

People here have already explained in great detail why the emotion of fear is meaningless to Tav, fear of AA in the AA route before patch 6 never happened. By all developer notes it was a consensual affair, otherwise Tav was breaking up with AA. Tav asking for freedom has the least amount of dialog in the game.

People here have written numerous times that if Tav is afraid of AA, he has the option to break up with him. Kissing with emotions of fear and resentment is disposable. You got kissed like that once - didn't like it - why go up and ask for it again? How do you explain it to yourself? I really don't get it.

I don't understand at all why spawn fans ask for something for themselves in the AA route, why don't you ask for more spawn kisses?

Just because someone interprets something you both enjoy in a different way/enjoys it for a different reason doesn't mean they're pretending they enjoy it.

Yes, the worst thing is when people are sneered at and mocked by "not recognizing reality", "justifying violence", the options are many, but they are all disgusting.
The kissing poll that was sent to Larian already had a "provokes toxicity" point. Fact that it encourages this kind of rhetoric. Tav chooses Astarion, continues the romance, doesn't fear him, chooses to ascend, doesn't fear him, could break up but chooses consent and continues. Options and reactions have to make some sense. For example that reaction of the companions to the burning Spawn, it breaks the context, the story.
The fact of this fear on an intimate, consenting thing is not valid in the context of the story.

The people who speak out here for the return of the fear emotion have familiar nicknames to me from other sites. They are fans of the spawn and zealous haters of the AA route at that. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Nah, it's just people pretending to be prissy little daisies, untouched by anything but the gentle morning dew and the the dark powers of their vampire lord when it suites them, and behaving like condescending cacti when it suites them better.

And again, it's one person making a very polite (if premature) request for an option.

Yes they have been dismissed as of April I believe.



Knowing where this post originated from, I would say this is just concern trolling. The community it spawned from does harbor some of the biggest harassers of people who like AA across multiple sites. OP has expressed their opinion, people have come in to disagree and state their own, and are being accused of hostility and attacks where there are none. It's, "state something inflammatory, then police how people react. If there is no big reaction, act like there is anyway and treat them as unreasonable."

If we are requesting to make expressions optional, then I would also request to have a toggle for the sad expressions during UA kisses. I have always experienced that route as unhappy. With the upcoming facial expression changes, if we're suggesting having a choice, I would like to have the choice to continue to play spawn the way I always have. Or perhaps the fear option there as well, given a few years down the road I always imagine spawn becoming unhappy with his LI robbing him of so much power.

If we want toggle expressions, then for sure let's give relevant ones to everyone!

OMG, I laughed so hard at that comment and agree totally. I would add, if OP fears, that they will patch the other animation out completely and it is important to them, than it makes sense to adress it before the patch comes out.


I assume, you have proof, if you are accusing people of malicious intent?


And Marielle: your comment is very hurtful and I was gonna report it, but someone did beat me to it. Not liking AA in a certain way is not pushing a political agenda in any form.

Personally, I do not have a problem with OP's suggestion (and I think they've been real polite and all). And, in passing, they don't seem to be a "Spawn Astarion fan", but maybe I've misunderstood some comments.

I do not really vibe with the changes from patch 6 when it comes to kissing with Ascended Astarion, just because they don't make much sense with the rest for me (no matter if you like gentle or not). And I've stated as much, and developed, in the other thread. I thought it was quite alright then for people to be able to say and suggest a few things.

But, as I understood that the changes in patch 6 might have switched the rapport people previously had with the romance, I can understand that it too can happen now for someone who got into said romance with said changes in place. I know that it might be tempting to say "wait and see", but I can also relate to being anxious about it by anticipation and wanting to make such a suggestion, while still adamant about letting everyone choose what they prefer. It's a bit the same to me as stories like "my cannon play through is always the first one" and such. Sometimes, for me at least, the first time you connect with a story, the way you connect with it, well it's just difficult to imagine it being different. It's the problem when things keep changing, with much time in between patches. It doesn't work for me, doesn't mean it can't for someone else, most of all if they have known only the patch 6 version. As long as it's having more choices for more people, except for the technical side of things, I don't see the problem in the suggestion.

Where were all these advocates for choice when patch 6 happened and people didn't want to be forced fed one type of narrative they found harmful to their mental health? I remember people basicly being told to accept that AA is Cazador 2.0 and to deal with it.

For someone who openly dislikes AA and criticises people who post in his threads calling them toxic etc., you certainly do enjoy spending a lot of time in them and talking to these "prissy little daisies".

What post specifically has said anything negative about the ascended Astarion romance? Or argued against those posts that keep repeating the same reasons why they don't want it portrayed as abusive, even though no one has even asked for the reasons or challenged them? No one has engaged with that, least of all OP. So I don't understand why they are gettting shouted down and accused of being a spawn romancer.

Well, I'll repeat the same suggestion. If you want to include 2 options, include them for all companions, since it's choice and RPG. As written before, the patch states that not only AA is getting edits in emotes. And I'm still laughing at the fact that the patch isn't out, but they're already demanding such a change. It's like you know what's in it.

Okay, well, now it sounds like you're trolling.


From what I know, they actually quit themselves about 2 months ago, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was in part due to the harassment.


Let's not play dumb. There is a difference between expressing disagreement and the passive-aggressiveness I've seen on this thread. I think a lot of users here who love AA and the dark romance aspect have expressed their disagreement respectfully, while some have been passive aggressive or needlessly up in arms towards OP themselves, sometimes assuming things that haven't been stated by them at all. For what it's worth, I think you can say "I think that's a really bad idea" or "I think that's really harmful" without also getting snarky when OP has done nothing to earn that treatment.

Please try to understand, I love this character, and the story my character has with him. I only want to preserve that. It's very hurtful to be repeatedly accused of malicious intent, for no reason other than having experienced a different version of the romance than you and asking for the chance to keep that. I would also like to clarify, this thread did not "originate" from anywhere. I made it to give my suggestion, and then shared it in a place I hoped it would be accepted. That is all.