Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback I dream of smiling at my beloved (a request for a happy face for Tav in Ascended Astarion's kisses).

I'm just putting you on ignore, we'll never be able to get into a constructive dialog, and I distinctly remember all your posts in the last thread, all through the spring, when fans were asking change facial expression.

I've been asking to change facial expressions since early access. You're a newcomer. Do not think you can "pull rank" by coming forward with: why have you not been online non-stop for the past year, where were you?

I see you doing this over and over again in an attempt to shut people down, when you only started to care when it affected one very small part of the game. I'm not as easily bullied as the OP of the last thread. Don't think this will work on me.

Make an argument that the look of fear on Tav's face when kissing AA is justified. What specific dialog lines in the game do you want to tie them into?

For me, the argument is the Dark Urge. As an evil Durge, I don't kneel for AA and I don't look at him like a scared deer. But OK, I can live with the neutral facial expressions, even if I would have liked a devilish smile or bitten back, especially considering that the relationship between Durge and Astarion is already so unique.

I think it would work great after attempting the first breakup in the AA route. Any of the explicitly very negative paths will do. At this point, the romance is ripe enough for that kind of path, though I stand by my general criticism of the game -- most expressions are overplayed.

In total, if you break up with a vampire because you think he has become a monster... yeah, you're probably afraid playing as Tav, though the faces still need polish.

Anyway, let's get back on topic. AA kisses should have happy/playful facial expressions, can't wait for patch 7 to see this.

After a breakup, there are no more kisses. Or are you saying they should add kisses that the PC doesn't ask for.

Justify your point of view in detail and explain exactly what dialog lines in the game you want to tie the emotion of fear to? Because I, until patch 6 was released, did not see fear in any dialog lines. And to me, those kisses are a rewrite of the route, not an add-on as many believe.

Tav \ Dark Urge doesn't have a single dialog line of animalistic fear of AA in the game for those faces to be justified, you know? There wasn't before the patch. If Tav AA doesn't like it and Tav reacts negatively - Tav fights back (e.g. might even punch). I would still understand hurt and disgruntled faces, but then why would Tav ask to kiss himself if Tav can just break up the relationship?

There are two opposing lines in AA's relationship with him. There's Tav who loves him and Tav who wants to break up. But Tav, who wants to break up - does so rather than asking to kiss herself. And the Tav who wants to break up is still not the Tav who is terrified of him. If you want to tie the emotion of fear to these lines of dialog - there's still no reason for fear.

Plus the issue of scripted sequence. In the scene where Tav kneels for the first time, AA doesn't force Tav by intimidation or at all. In that scene, you have the choice to refuse to do it. Yes, it breaks the relationship with AA, but it's a choice. AA doesn't intimidate, he takes offense and walks away. The point is that you only get on your knees if you want to. In kissing faces of fear this logic is broken, because Tav is motivated specifically by fear and the inability to say no. And there is no consistency or logic to it.

No, I'm saying they work fine for a route where Tav attempts something as severe as some of the statements in the breakup dialogue, whether they finally break up over it, get back together, whatever choices added. I can very much see a path for a toxic romance here where Tav feels unsettled, but can't let go of Astarion, all while believing he has become a monster. *That* is the source of the fear. It would be an interesting path, an opportunity for actual well written tragedy. How far Larian would want to go in branching out paths would be their choice. I don't have *expectations* they'll add more than the reportedly neutral expressions in patch 7, to be clear, but I do think it would be nice. There are not a lot of tragic romances in media. I'm always sad to see something sanitized for a wider audience.

It's a evil ending on morality, DnD. There isn't some rule that evil is over the player, it's Evil Win with its own pros and cons.

Larian themselves "enforcing one way" as all patches before this, including the new kisses 4 patch with Astarion on both paths were happy.

In addition... What kind of face should Asatrion have if hypothetically Larian adds an opition of fear? The same as with consent? So Asatrion will stare and smile while his partner is uncomfortable with intimate things.
Hardly fits the original character idea (an enchanting balanace of dark and fun, engaging. Stephen Rooney. Idle Insights Idle Champions D&D 21:51), the story and what game Larian released and wrote.
Dark Fantasy Abuse Rape was only in fanon.

Fear is not applicable to AA kissing in terms of plot and logic of the kiss. There is no situation, no dialogue or line suitable for kissing and fear together.

I'm convinced that in bg3 in a single romance with an evil man where most of the lines play a consensual, willful, happy dynamic.
The rest is 3-4 lines, where Tav either didn't realise something about "forever together" and consented, or dating the rather dangerous, immoral spawn Astarion is afraid of rough kissing. Maybe some people were drawn to it, the whole atmosphere and context of the story is different. Of course Larian chose a happy set of kisses for both Minathra and Astarion. Tav who doesn't like it will break up with him.

If you are afraid of AA and consider it a monster, there is absolutely nothing to stop you from breaking up with it. Just break up with him. Asking him for kisses is illogical, to say the least. And once you break up with him, there is no kissing option at all.

Yes, a tragedy. Not a romance. I do wonder do you have any interest in romance in the game? What are your choice for a partner out of the companions we get? If you don't mind sharing. And I'm not asking in a shouting or negative way, I'm curious.

I don't believe non-consent or rape is necessary for that path. The point is that Tav is in love with someone they believe has died the day of the ritual, and grows from being unable to admit it to loving their ghost. That's tragic romance. It's not necessarily abusive, though it is toxic.

Again, I think the expressions are overplayed as usual -- a subtle vibe of just being somewhat *colder*, a short moment of hesitation, even desperation would suit it better than extreme fear. Nonetheless, I think this path deserves a shot. There was great potential here Larian never fully utilized, then tried to tap into with a random patch that unifies all routes in a weird way. I only really have time to play in summer, so I'll only get to experience any changes next year either way.

You do realize that you just described a fanon that, in addition, contradicts scenes that are already in the game, right? AA doesn't force you to get on your knees by intimidation, he didn't grab your neck unless Tav didn't like it.

I pick romance choices mostly by how well they fit any Tav or Durge I create narratively. The biggest secondary interest is variety. I do not want the same cookie cutter, perfect romance every time... even if I had the choice. That's just not me. Some of them will be happy, some will be tragedies.

And why would it be necessary to have divergent romantic paths if someone who doesn't want an eternal bond with Astarion, and who might make a miserable face because of it, "wanting freedom", can immediately say, "No" in response to Astarion's proposal and break off the relationship with him? Astarion makes it clear that it will be an eternal bond, and it's extremely odd for someone who considers it unfreedom to agree to a conversion ritual to then try to break something that can't be broken. To roleplay a character who is completely unable to predict the consequences of their actions? And someone who truly loves Astarion, who is happy that they will be together forever until the world falls down, who themselves would never let Astarion go far away from them of their own free will, why should they kiss their beloved with a neutral face?


I don't see the same standard being applied to everyone. No one but those who love Astarion has been tried to be made to be miserable in the game. There was an attempt in which Minthara insulted the DU who refused to accept Bhaal, but thankfully that was quickly removed. But that incident with Minhara is the only one, nothing else like that happens to any of the romantic companions in the game.

So many points... Let's start with:

"I don't see the same standard being applied to everyone. No one but those who love Astarion has been tried to be made to be miserable in the game."

Well, there is Karlach. Larian very much made us believe for months that all our effort was for nothing, and that she is doomed to die. The Avernus ending being a "badass" route where the whole party doesn't die in 3 months or so is a rather recent invention. It's not possible to survive permanently there -- for multiple reasons! -- so this one requires immense suspension of disbelief from me to this day. Nonetheless, we got something. I can live with what we got.

It's not completely equal to what happened with Astarion, no, but as I've said -- that does not mean other companions do not have *similar* complexity. In parallel: the last time I played the game, SH was bugged into the Dark Justiciar route! I had to *kill* her since this wasn't an evil playthrough.

"And why would it be necessary to have divergent romantic paths if someone who doesn't want an eternal bond with Astarion..."
Nothing is *necessary*. In a way, I could level the same criticism at happy expressions -- the only fix "needed" is complete neutrality. However, I believe both could enrich the experience, albeit for different people.

"To roleplay a character who is completely unable to predict the consequences of their actions?"
I am a realist, so him turning more "evil" is obvious to me, but there actually were a lot of people surprised that he does and that this is the dark route when the game came out. They fundamentally disagree on it being the "dark" choice. I can see a Tav thinking in a similar style to these people -- the vampire spawn could wreck a lot of havoc, and Astarion "deserves" his freedom. Therefore, the ritual is... not inherently evil. I don't agree with this line of thinking, but yes, I could roleplay it.

Maybe we could be a bit more open to compromise and adopting a live and let live approach to everyone's own enjoyment of fiction?

To all AA fans - don't fall for provocations, let's just be happy to be heard and soon we will see changed facial expressions :3

Romance with Astarion was never written the way you want it to be, Silver.
About fear, on the player character's face, especially in intimacy.
It's taken out of the context of the story.
That wasn't there when the game was released.
It doesn't fit with the character's idea of being both dark and fun.

Especially there's the weird black and white romance where "I can heal\fix" works even though everyone knows it doesn't work and leads to death. I for one can't remind Astarion of his threat in the epilogue, or see how he's corrupted by the power of ruling 7k given the bent of his personality.
I don't think I have any desire to ask for any of that. It's not a path I'm choosing and exploring.
Maybe I'd like 18 charisma to be affected by something in the game, the actions we make.

It's not about "sanitised for a wider audience". That's more suitable about Astarion's past when he was selling criminals. Well, we won't know why anyway.

I know enough about the genre of dark romance and tragedy, but I can see the idea perfectly, by the majority lines for the game, the atmosphere, it was about consistent and fun to share decadence together.