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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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I have always been of the opinion that both the trapped Tav and willing consort narratives are valid interpretations of the romance.
The Patch 6 facial expressions for Tav, which were overtly fearful in my opinion, were not open to interpretation. I could not imagine any scenario in which a Tav who was happy with the bargain they made would look so utterly miserable.
Now I have no idea what Larian intended for this romance path, so can only speculate. I do think the presence of the ‘Come on, let it hurt’ dialogue option in the turning scene is strong evidence that Larian knew at least some players would see the dynamic as consensual kink. That’s a button just screaming ‘push me’ to anyone who has ever entertained a masochistic thought.
At the same time, I think it remains problematic that there is an option to ask for gentleness instead and after the turning night the game in no way differentiates between the choice the player made. People who asked for tenderness are still presented with kissing scenes with sadistic elements (playful shoving, choking). So I fully empathize with anyone who doesn’t want to see a happy face on their Tav in the face of what could be a new and unexpected relationship element.
Given the very sensitive nature of what Larian decided to play with in the AA romance, I think having a few conversation flags that determine either Tav’s expression or which versions of the kisses is seen feels reasonable.
Last edited by melgreg; 15/08/24 09:16 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2024
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Yes, I know. That was what I meant; a lack of options in the epilogue doesn't have to mean the options shouldn't be there or wouldn't make sense. I think you'd have to ask them to add a lot more content than just changed facial expressions to make the trapped narrative believable. As it is now, I find it flimsy at best. That is your right. I and others don't find it flimsy at all. I think it's very apparent In the romance if you play that way, and always has been. With different expressions that each make sense for the way someone is playing their Tav, no one would have to feel like they are playing a flimsily cobbled together narrative.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2023
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That wasn't what I meant. It's been possible, and reflected in the dialogue options you can choose, for Tav to be unhappy/uncertain/afraid but stay in the relationship since Patch 1. Patch 6 added to that. The new Patch 7 expressions would add to the narrative of a Tav who is completely happy with everything instead. I don't think either of these should be the only option, which is why I am asking to make the original faces optional instead of completely replacing them.
I don't want to rely on mods for this either, as mods have no influence on what the game itself implies. I'm afraid I disagree with that a bit. Mods can greatly enhance the story, make it more real to the player. What the game itself implies can have different readings, and with mods everyone can make the story better and more realistic for themselves. In the game itself, the story still feels too much like a novel with set reactions in places, the roleplay is pretty poor, so it's hard to take it so seriously already. Who cares what the game implies if it doesn't feel like something convincing to the player? Some things I really like and find very convincing, for example I like many of Astarion's lines, his gestures, voice, facial expressions, looks. Some scenes - like the dialog scene after the Ascension - are unconvincing because there is no possibility to choose any adequate line for Tav, here you have to headcanon and “convince yourself” already in Astarion's voice, focus on his strong desire to make Tav his bride, without paying attention to Tav's lines. I installed a mod that fixes this, and I'm very pleased with it. Even the night after Ascension itself is handled much more convincingly with the “Re-live your final night” mod, where the animations are done better and Tav's facial expressions are much more appropriate to the situation. But I don't expect much improvement of this scene, the developers have quite a lot to do, so I'll play with this mod anyway. The kneeling scene is a rail, you can only agree and kneel. But you can also not go through the unpleasant check and agree right away, giving this scene its own reading. In the final dialog in the room Tav again makes a disgruntled face, also unconvincing, but maybe in patch 7 they will add the possibility of free camera and this problem will go away with a simple change of perspective. In the epilogue you can't hug or kiss Astarion, while other companions can be hugged, it's extremely oddly perceived. If a mod comes along that fixes this, I will gladly run to install it, and it will make the story of my novel much more compelling. Yes, there are some stories where there's nothing to add or take away, but the possibility of different interpretations, and even more so the possibility of improvements through modding tools, is, in my opinion, also a great option for a great game. If the story itself is unconvincing in some ways for me, there may be some inconsistencies in it for you as well, and mods can make the story convincing for everyone. If the only options available are sleeping with Haarlep or having to fight him to the death, that's coercion, it affects the player character, not an NPC, and it's very possible for this to be triggering for someone. Why is fighting him a coercion? This is a natural and normal thing - we see a potential enemy, dialog with him, then fight him, it's a normal quest. Haarlep's role is a possible mini-boss, a warm-up before the main boss of the location. In BG3, as in all RPG games, we often fight enemies and can have a preliminary conversation with them. Is every fight in the game a coercion to fight?
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
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addict
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Joined: Nov 2023
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Now I have no idea what Larian intended for this romance path, so can only speculate. It seems to me that they didn't know what they wanted and we ended up with a can of worms. It really would be great if we could choose the type of kisses we wanted (rough or gentle), as previously suggested.
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Joined: Aug 2024
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That wasn't what I meant. It's been possible, and reflected in the dialogue options you can choose, for Tav to be unhappy/uncertain/afraid but stay in the relationship since Patch 1. Patch 6 added to that. The new Patch 7 expressions would add to the narrative of a Tav who is completely happy with everything instead. I don't think either of these should be the only option, which is why I am asking to make the original faces optional instead of completely replacing them.
I don't want to rely on mods for this either, as mods have no influence on what the game itself implies. I'm afraid I disagree with that a bit. Mods can greatly enhance the story, make it more real to the player. What the game itself implies can have different readings, and with mods everyone can make the story better and more realistic for themselves. Sure, but mods were not enough for players who didn't like the original expressions either. Mods can add to the experience, but they don't change what is presented in the story itself. If the only options available are sleeping with Haarlep or having to fight him to the death, that's coercion, it affects the player character, not an NPC, and it's very possible for this to be triggering for someone. Why is fighting him a coercion? This is a natural and normal thing - we see a potential enemy, dialog with him, then fight him, it's a normal quest. Haarlep's role is a possible mini-boss, a warm-up before the main boss of the location. In BG3, as in all RPG games, we often fight enemies and can have a preliminary conversation with them. Is every fight in the game a coercion to fight? I mean what Haarlep does (give Tav the choice to either sleep with him or potentially die) is sexual coercion, and that can be triggering for players to see.
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Joined: Aug 2024
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It really would have been great if we could choose the type of kisses we wanted (rough or gentle), as previously suggested. I personally don't think that would be the right solution. Having Astarion constantly adhere to what Tav demands like that would feel very unfitting for this version of him and give the impression that they are ordering him around, in my opinion. (I know there is a choice in the scene where he turns Tav, but that's a different situation than asking for a kiss, before Tav is his spawn, and not a repeatable action.)
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addict
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Joined: Nov 2023
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It really would have been great if we could choose the type of kisses we wanted (rough or gentle), as previously suggested. I personally don't think that would be the right solution. Having Astarion constantly adhere to what Tav demands like that would feel very unfitting for this version of him and give the impression that they are ordering him around, in my opinion. (I know there is a choice in the scene where he turns Tav, but that's a different situation than asking for a kiss, before Tav is his spawn, and not a repeatable action.) "I can refuse you nothing." "Anything for you, my darling." He's also chill with you controlling the big bad and making sure you have every bit of decadence that you desire. I don't see why it would be a problem for him.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
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@Ryzaki, thank you for taking my remarks on board.
As to my first point, I’d rather see opinions as “I statements” but I think you got my overall message.
Happy posting! Thanks. Oh I am very pro the dialogue you picked on the turning night changing the kisses. I'm not a big fan of the throat grab kiss anyway frankly, that getting disabled because you picked be gentle would be nice.
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Joined: Aug 2024
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It really would have been great if we could choose the type of kisses we wanted (rough or gentle), as previously suggested. I personally don't think that would be the right solution. Having Astarion constantly adhere to what Tav demands like that would feel very unfitting for this version of him and give the impression that they are ordering him around, in my opinion. (I know there is a choice in the scene where he turns Tav, but that's a different situation than asking for a kiss, before Tav is his spawn, and not a repeatable action.) "I can refuse you nothing." "Anything for you, my darling." He's also chill with you controlling the big bad and making sure you have every bit of decadence that you desire. I don't see why it would be a problem for him. "I'm done bowing to the whims of others." Those kiss lines, in my opinion, aren't very different from Spawn Astarion's "How could I say no", they don't mean he would give Tav literally anything they ask for. His Origin also has a special line with the drow twins implying that he hates being told what to do because it brings back bad memories. This is more of a meta reason, but I also think it wouldn't be fair for the AA path to have access to all the kiss cinematics, when Spawn already has so much less content than him.
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Joined: Mar 2024
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I don't want to rely on mods for this either, as mods have no influence on what the game itself implies. Sorry, but that sounds selfish. Then the same can be said for those who ask to keep the patch 6 animation. So if I want to play as the happy couple, I can't do it, since that animation will exist in the game, implying a different story? Yes, I know. That was what I meant; a lack of options in the epilogue doesn't have to mean the options shouldn't be there or wouldn't make sense. The lack of options in the epilogue may also imply freedom of interpretation. а. Tav does not wish to ask for freedom, he is happy б. Tav can't ask anyone for help I don't think it's necessary to add more dialog or narrator narration about it. It is up to the player myself to decide the reason for this. I personally don't think that would be the right solution. Having Astarion constantly adhere to what Tav demands like that would feel very unfitting for this version of him and give the impression that they are ordering him around, in my opinion. (I know there is a choice in the scene where he turns Tav, but that's a different situation than asking for a kiss, before Tav is his spawn, and not a repeatable action.) You are free to interpret it that way in your story. However, this choice would allow to come to a possible golden mean, where roughly-new kisses of patch 6-7, gently- old animation. However, this ambiguity goes to branching out into the already accepted choice of AA or UA, and in my opinion is unfair to other companions neglected, unlike Astarion as a whole.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
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Yes, I know. That was what I meant; a lack of options in the epilogue doesn't have to mean the options shouldn't be there or wouldn't make sense. I think you'd have to ask them to add a lot more content than just changed facial expressions to make the trapped narrative believable. As it is now, I find it flimsy at best. I agree with you. Tav and Astarion are both happy when they are arriving at the Epilogue, when Tav is talking with the other companions and when approaching Astarion. And they have given a grand Masquerade before. The narrative of the Epilogue shows us a consensual romance. As long as potentially triggering content can be avoided by being locked behind options the player doesn't have to choose, like the OP of this thread requested for the kisses, I don't think the game or its characters need to be censored. I'm sorry, but how do you a romance locked behind the options? The only option I see is to not start it with that character. Not the entire romance. Tav's expressions during the kisses could be decided by the options the player chooses. For example, I think it would make sense for any one of these to lead to the original faces: -"You're starting to scare me..." after ascension. -"Give in and kneel" after Tav first tried to refuse. -"Well, I suppose it cannot be undone now" the morning after becoming a vampire. -"Sorry! I didn't mean it" in the breakup dialogue. I absolutely disagree with this suggestion. I would have gotten there, because I like to choose 3 of those answers, and I am not into seeing a SA scene. Beside of, that I doubt, this kind of things could be done, it will still lead players to an unexpected scene containing SV (and I think it's not appropiate and storywise for this romance or a mainstream game). I always choose the "no" in the kneeling scene, because I admire Astarion saying "yes" in a playful dominant way. As Melgred mentioned, the ‘Come on, let it hurt’ dialogue (also the Abdirak scene) implies and is a strong evidence that Larian wanted to give players a path to enjoy a kink (AA is a romance which contains D/s dynamics, and UA is a classical romantic romance). Welch, Larians former writer, also stated, it's a kink and with the kneeling scene, where you can agree or disagree or even kick him in the balls (2! breakup options for those, who are not into this type of romance / D/s dynamics) it is clear, that Astarion likes you to kneel. The "turning scene" is a truly and well done scene, which BDSM and kink lovers enjoy. Therefore, I doubt, that this kneeling and playful shove kiss should show any kind of "circle of abuse", but Larian or the animation team unintenonally made it look like a SA scene, which was just not intended and they are correcting it now. I used this scene as an example because it can be potentially triggering in a similar way, even if it isn't to you personally. If the only options available are sleeping with Haarlep or having to fight him to the death, that's coercion, it affects the player character, not an NPC, and it's very possible for this to be triggering for someone. You think the Haarlep scene doesn't need warnings. Other people may think the AA kisses don't. Either way, both of these things are optional and can be avoided. That was what I meant. If you find the Haarlep scene being inappropiate, you may give your Feedback to Larian. I don't think there's any point in using other scenes that have nothing to do with Astarion here. There is also a torture scene that may be inappropriate, if they would glorify violence. In fact, there are some games that made subsequent changes because they had inappropriate scenes or would have increased their rating. As far as I know, from a hidden coitus to a real life bullying victim's house that someone integrated into a game, which the developer later said he didn't know how THAT thing got there - it was removed and never came back, although there were complaints from several players (even a massive attack on gaming sites, who reported about it) who wanted the bullying victim's house back in the game. And the dicision to remove this reallife house of a victim of bullying was the right decision, there are things that are not appropriate. And to add: If you find Astarion's act 2 scene inappropiate, also this, you might report and give Feedback to Larian.
"I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear."
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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Yes, I don't argue that the pain of a beloved character can be much more acute than one's own. It was very hard for me to watch some of Astarion's videos, and I even admittedly didn't watch them all to prevent myself from feeling pain and anger. But in this scene everything is too obvious, there is not one but even two lines, I watched this video:
“I was hoping that as regard for my support you'd throw yourself at me” - in my opinion, the line itself is very strange and stupid, especially since Astarion started a serious conversation. All right, let's say someone took it as playfulness.
“You should learn to enjoy sex for your own pleasure, and you should enjoy it with me” - Really? After what he said? I don't know if someone has problems with localization and translation. But it seems to me that already at this point the player wants to see what will happen if you induce Astarion to have sex despite... And his voice, his facial expression - there are so many signals here that it's strange to me to imagine how it can be ignored. But I'm not condemning anyone's roleplay, I'm just saying that this scene doesn't fall under the category of scenes that need a special warning.
And I agree that we can have more empathy for companions. And the most important companion is our LI. So how am I going to make the kind of facial expressions that were suggested for me in patch 6 in kissing Astarion? And even neutral expressions? It would look like I'm tolerating the touch of my significant other, rather than enjoying it. And I don't want Astarion to feel like there's something I don't like about him. It's not fair to make me look like I dislike him. In that case, it's not just the scrapping of the roleplay that upsets me, but also the thought of what Astarion thinks when he sees that look on Tav's face. About the associations with Tav - I didn't really mean that, I meant that the trigger can be activated under some similar circumstances. A person who was the victim of SA/DA sees some similar actions, and the same fear and pain on the face of the character with whom they associate themselves, together this triggers and can provoke PTSD. In the case where there is no match, for example, the expression on the character's face is happy, even if the actions that are done to the character are judged as unacceptable, the person is more likely to experience dislike, disgust at the scene, they may not like it, but it will not be as traumatic a trigger as it could be if there is a more complete match to some situation that happened to them in the past. It's not a matter of who one feels more sorry for, Tav or the companions, it's that the situation itself, also because of the association of oneself with the character being violently acted upon, can be a trigger. So a consensual D/s would be a much safer option for the player who gets into these scenes. I keep it short because I don't want to get mixed up in this debate. It has been pointed out to you in the last thread on this topic (the most recent one that got closed) that what you say about triggers is wrong, so I don't think I have to repeat it here. It's on page 4 of the other thread. Summing up my only intended contribution: What might be an ok scene for you can be deeply disturbing or triggering for someone else, and trying to diminish or invalidate other experiences because they aren't your own seems unfair. Or: I agree with what Elly said on the topic.
Last edited by Anska; 15/08/24 10:41 PM.
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I don't want to rely on mods for this either, as mods have no influence on what the game itself implies. Sorry, but that sounds selfish. Then the same can be said for those who ask to keep the patch 6 animation. So if I want to play as the happy couple, I can't do it, since that animation will exist in the game, implying a different story? Sorry, what? That's the opposite of what I mean. Both options are valid and should remain represented in the game, because it's a roleplaying game and the story changes with your choices. I don't think anyone should have to play the story in a way that feels wrong to them, and having both options available would be the best way to ensure that, in my opinion. Yes, I know. That was what I meant; a lack of options in the epilogue doesn't have to mean the options shouldn't be there or wouldn't make sense. The lack of options in the epilogue may also imply freedom of interpretation. а. Tav does not wish to ask for freedom, he is happy б. Tav can't ask anyone for help I don't think it's necessary to add more dialog or narrator narration about it. It is up to the player myself to decide the reason for this. I was replying to someone else who implied Tav clearly doesn't need to ask for help because the option to do so is not there. I agree that it's up to interpretation the way it is now.
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addict
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Joined: Nov 2023
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It really would have been great if we could choose the type of kisses we wanted (rough or gentle), as previously suggested. I personally don't think that would be the right solution. Having Astarion constantly adhere to what Tav demands like that would feel very unfitting for this version of him and give the impression that they are ordering him around, in my opinion. (I know there is a choice in the scene where he turns Tav, but that's a different situation than asking for a kiss, before Tav is his spawn, and not a repeatable action.) "I can refuse you nothing." "Anything for you, my darling." He's also chill with you controlling the big bad and making sure you have every bit of decadence that you desire. I don't see why it would be a problem for him. "I'm done bowing to the whims of others." Those kiss lines, in my opinion, aren't very different from Spawn Astarion's "How could I say no", they don't mean he would give Tav literally anything they ask for. His Origin also has a special line with the drow twins implying that he hates being told what to do because it brings back bad memories. Astarion repeatedly makes sure that Tav knows they are not like the others. He tells them they're both better than them. Tav doesn't order him around either, he's fine with them asking for things and pampering them. They're his treasure, after all. Everything he does for Tav, is of his own free will. The fact that he lets Tav become the ruler makes it crystal clear that he lets them do what they want. He also doesn't want to break up with Tav like UA does after cheating on him with Mizora.
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Joined: Aug 2024
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If you find the Haarlep scene being inappropiate, you may give your Feedback to Larian. I don't think there's any point in using other scenes that have nothing to do with Astarion here. There is also a torture scene that may be inappropriate. In fact, there are some games that made subsequent changes because they had inappropriate scenes or would have increased their rating. As far as I know, from a hidden coitus to a bullying victim's house that someone integrated into a game, which the developer later said he didn't know how THAT thing got there and removed.
And to add: If you find Astarion's act 2 scene inappropiate, also this, you might report and give Feedback to Larian. I don't want the Haarlep scene or the Act 2 scene to be removed or censored. They were examples I gave because it was said by someone else that the game shouldn't contain the original kisses even as an option, which I disagree with. To your other points, I don't see the Ascended path as just a kink thing. You are free to see it that way of course, but I personally think forcing that interpretation onto the player by making Tav look happy and sensual in the kisses for everyone would really diminish the story being told, and it wouldn't be the story I have been playing for the last year.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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Short intermission about Haarlep and horror undertones in the game: I think the point of Haarlep is, that he is supposed to be unsettling.The game has a lot of horror undertones and I consider Haarlep one of them. The game is for mature audience and makes it pretty clear, that it goes into horror territory from the first cutscene on. It certainly is not for people easily rattled. The whole of act 2 is a lovecraftian nightmare. I as a horror fan love it, but I get, it isn't for everone. But the answer can't be to ask for every unsettling thing to get patched out, then we have a soulless story in the end. I think, Haarlep is in so far ok and even rewarding, that it is satisfying to put an end to him and his antics (though, I would prefer to have more of the Hearthflame sisters instead of a pointless npc, that is only there to creep us out) - you basically take back your atonomy over your body.
You have torture and people turned into eldtrich abominations in act 2 and I think, it is great to drive the point home, that we are playing against pretty severe odds. Astarion being desperate enough to make a deal with a devil, even after witnessing Wyll getting severly punished, Lae'zel throwing everything she believed in over bord, Gale defying his goddess, Shadowheart not only doing that, but go all in with renouncing her faith - all that shows people in extreme situations and it makes for great storytelling.
And I get, that discussing a kissing animation is more than just 'I want more sexy time'. For one group it's romance, for the other the exploration of a more personal type of horror - both is valid imo. I see it no different than the Halsin discussions: one group find him very sexy and refreshing, others downright creepy. I don't think, that one group is objectively more right than the other, because how you receive a story, is subjective. I always saw Abdirak as a good representation of healthy BDSM (friends who are into BDSM agreed to that), despite the fact, that the way he came to be in the goblin camp is fishy, others see him as downright creepy - both groups are right and I have no problem with people seeing it differntly.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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Sorry, what? That's the opposite of what I mean. Both options are valid and should remain represented in the game, because it's a roleplaying game and the story changes with your choices. The way I understood it is that if the game is about (let's say) a cycle of violence (or partnership), you don't want to rely on mods to change the story to fit your vision when the game assumes a specific story. If I misunderstood, I apologize, it's the complexities of translation.
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Astarion repeatedly makes sure that Tav knows they are not like the others. He tells them they're both better than them. Tav doesn't order him around either, he's fine with them asking for things and pampering them. They're his treasure, after all. Everything he does for Tav, is of his own free will.
The fact that he lets Tav become the ruler makes it crystal clear that he lets them do what they want. He also doesn't want to break up with Tav like UA does after cheating on him with Mizora. If you want to discuss how he feels about Tav, I think it may be better to move this to a Story & Character discussion thread, or end it here and agree to disagree. Those discussions tend to go on endlessly, and I think we've now both made our opinions clear on whether changing the kisses in that way would make sense or not.
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Joined: Aug 2024
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Sorry, what? That's the opposite of what I mean. Both options are valid and should remain represented in the game, because it's a roleplaying game and the story changes with your choices. The way I understood it is that if the game is about (let's say) a cycle of violence (or partnership), you don't want to rely on mods to change the story to fit your vision when the game assumes a specific story. If I misunderstood, I apologize, it's the complexities of translation. What I meant was that I don't think anyone should have to rely on mods to be able to continue playing the game in a way that makes sense for their character. If someone had to install a mod to still feel like their character's story makes sense, it would mean the game itself doesn't allow for that story anymore, when it did before. That's why I think just having both the option for a happy Tav and for a trapped Tav to be represented in the kiss cinematics (like in the dialogue choices that have always been there) would make the most sense.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
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If you find the Haarlep scene being inappropiate, you may give your Feedback to Larian. I don't think there's any point in using other scenes that have nothing to do with Astarion here. There is also a torture scene that may be inappropriate. In fact, there are some games that made subsequent changes because they had inappropriate scenes or would have increased their rating. As far as I know, from a hidden coitus to a bullying victim's house that someone integrated into a game, which the developer later said he didn't know how THAT thing got there and removed.
And to add: If you find Astarion's act 2 scene inappropiate, also this, you might report and give Feedback to Larian. I don't want the Haarlep scene or the Act 2 scene to be removed or censored. They were examples I gave because it was said by someone else that the game shouldn't contain the original kisses even as an option, which I disagree with. To your other points, I don't see the Ascended path as just a kink thing. You are free to see it that way of course, but I personally think forcing that interpretation onto the player by making Tav look happy and sensual in the kisses for everyone would really diminish the story being told, and it wouldn't be the story I have been playing for the last year. Yes, I - as many others - find this explicit repeatable non-consensual scene inappropiate for several reasons, and we were discussing about that for months. You are free to see it otherwise. I just don't think there is a need to talk about other scenes elsewhere in the game and suggest to give Feedback on them, if you or someone else found something inappropiate - I am sure Larian might check this by an expert, and if inappropiate, change it.
"I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear."
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