Originally Posted by Marielle
Originally Posted by Zayir
*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***


The scenes, Larian introduced with patch 6 for "Could I kiss you?", are depictions of sexual violence and sexual assaults due to the signs of the non-consensual reaction of the player's character (a gaming site reported on this), therefore it should need a warning and description in their rating for this game for "sexual violence", also in this Forum we have to warn now when talking about sensitive content as (sexual) abuse. The sudden introduction of a non-consensual, sexual violence scene into a consensual romance (All kisses were consensual before) already lead to several people, getting a PTSD episode, Depressions and anxiety by seeing a sexual violence scene. The sexual violence scene is repeatable, so it is meant to rewatch over and over again (it's not a [storywise] one-time assault), the sexual aussault could therefore fall under violent pornography, especially since the scene is used as such in a particular scene. I doubt, that Larian's intention was to show sexual violence or violent pornography (non-con), and they just got it wrong, because kink (and consensual play) is often misunderstood and the depiction of that often poorly done.
I don't judge people who want to see or play a fictional story of sexual violence / abuse, and I don't want others to judge them, but in general there is a reason why sexual violence is rarely be found in mainstream media due to the sensitive content, and if there are depictions of abuse, it is mostly done in a non-sexualized way (that means, that it doesn't fall under the category for violent pornography, which, as far as I know, may also not be allowed in some of the european countries.)

Here's the main reason why Tav's facial expressions introduced in patch 6 should not remain in the official version of the game. Even with the choices available, these scenes still pose a danger. An unprepared person could simply test the game by selecting different choices out of curiosity and end up seeing content that could negatively affect their psyche. Larian would then have to write a warning for the sake of it, that the game contains such scenes. D/s scenes that would constitute kissing after the positive facial expression changes in patch 7 are appropriate for an R rated game, and do not need a trigger warning.

In any case, for players who want to see non-con in their game, there will be mods. Mod, unlike the official version of the game, has a description, and a random and unprepared person will not download such a mod, they will be used by those players who know exactly what they want to see in their game. I've seen descriptions of future mods (I don't want to cite a third-party resource, I think those who need it can find it themselves), including for roleplaying their Tav/DU or Astarion Origin with the ability to use these animations in relation to their LI. I think a consensual D/s with happy faces in the official game is the best option. All other companions have a consensual romance, the same should be true for Astarion as well - it fits his story, the game's plot and the overall concept of BG3 romance. In any case, non-con players will quickly get their facial expressions back in the form of mods - there are animations in the game, new modding tools will allow to quickly return the desired expressions to the game.

In addition, if time and resources are spent on branching kisses, it would be unfair to leave non-consensual kisses in the game while forgetting about those players who don't like Astarion's animations and actions at all. After patch 6, there were also quite a few people posting in the change request threads for whom the D/s scenes themselves are unpleasant and they want a classic romance without the D/s. For example, the return of the kiss of patch 5. And that audience is clearly no smaller than the non-con audience. So when it comes to variation, we should definitely think of this audience as well, and consider making classic romance kisses without D/s for Ascended Astarion. Or leave it as it is - a consensual D/s with happy faces as the official version, and tragic, or classic romance the players can get with mods. That is the compromise option. Because when we talk about “neutral” faces as a compromise between non-con and healthy D/s, we completely forget about those players who have a hard time accepting D/s as such.

Personally, I can only perceive D/s with a happy facial expression on my character's face.What was presented as a gif still hints at disagreement for me, and I don't want to play with that facial expression. I really want to have a smile on my face when Astarion puts his hand on the throat, I've seen that facial expression, and I really like the kneeling kiss now. It doesn't evoke any unpleasant emotions like it used to. I've always wanted to do more for Astarion in my game, to give him more love, and in this version of the kiss performance, it satisfies my desire, making up for the lack of opportunities to show love to Astarion in other moments of the game. Tav's face after the simulated slap is playful, I love the smirks and playfulness! It gives the scene a completely different reading - the slap moment was the most emotionally heavy, unpleasant, even triggering moment for me. Now it isn't! When it is a game, and my Tav sees it as a game, there are no associations with rejection or contempt on Astarion's part, no thoughts that Astarion might be disgusted that Tav wants to kiss him. On the contrary, it is perceived that Astarion is as uninhibited as possible, free in his desires, he trusts me completely, trusts me so much that he does not need to put himself in any kind of framework, “rules of etiquette”, “masks of propriety” and the like.Astarion can play all he wants, Tav knows it's a game, and Astarion knows that Tav understands him, and he can afford to play that game with her too. Happiness is being understood and accepted for who you are. And I want to give that happiness to Astarion, I don't want to have a neutral face that gives associations with like just putting up with it. And I myself want to work through some of my own vulnerabilities with the game, but I can only do that if my Tav is happy. So I'm really looking forward to patch 7 with happy faces!

In Bite, yes, there's a moment I didn't really like, and as Silver/ wrote above, it could be interpreted as Tav changing her facial expression when Astarion closes his eyes.
I wouldn't have thought of that, but it's a curious perusal. I'm assuming it's part of an old animation that was filmed rather than set programmatically (just a guess). I think I can live with that. I'll imagine Tav making those eyes because she's just surprised. A sudden bite is capable of surprise, after all. About the look - I can imagine Tav thinking for a second. Whether she should try to kiss him again, lick her lips, or react in some other way. Then Tav smirks playfully, as if laughing at the fact that Astarion took the initiative first. So, it can be said that these scenes allow for different interpretations based on the player's wishes.

A question for fans of the non-con genre:

I'm just curious if this interpretation is possible. Is it possible to imagine that Astarion controls Tav so much that he makes them smile, i.e. even their facial expressions don't belong to them now? As far as I understand, the interest in such scenes is created by the fact that the passive participant in the process is like a toy in the hands of the active one and is completely under control? I apologize if I have expressed myself wrongly or understood it incorrectly - I warn you that I am a complete zero in this topic, I read about it only recently. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, I'm really just curious.
CW: potentially disturbing topics, no secret lore in this spoiler.
I'll try, though am suffering mildly from the language barrier -- AFAIK that's a complex issue you're describing. Some people enjoy being used, or having their mobility severely restricted to that degree, or even like to pretend they're furniture. That description could fit many things. Most people who are into non-con mean consensual non-consent, with themselves being the person pretend violated. There's usually something "extra" involved that drives someone past wanting something as "boring" as bondage.

Most people who go for non-con in fandom also don't have it as a fetish. You're more likely to find someone exploring their own trauma, especially in the written medium. Humans generally aren't wired to find lack of consent sexy per se, to seek a victim. Those who do are often supremely hateful individuals rather than people with a traditional fetish. Combining all of these factors, I really can't say for sure if any of the people you've encountered are sexually motivated. It's certainly possible, but in this case I would speculate the attraction is Tav being *owned*, without complete free will, bound, etc. Almost all people into non-con project onto the victim role, not the abuser role. *If* there even is such an imagined dynamic, not a hunter and the hunted, etc.

With AA, it's more of a form of extreme submission than non-con, a surrender. Though submitting to that degree can lead to wanting to be "used". Or, so I speculate. Whether the non-con is actually dub-con in that sense is difficult. We get many hints AA thinks we want to be degraded, used, even he doesn't say "violated". Assuming he is *right* (risky), a person can fully want to be ruined, and consent to it. In a way, such a person is using the one who "violates" them as much as they're being used themselves. This doesn't have to be as healthy as kink attempts-- it can be a genuinely toxic dynamic. Not sexually motivated. Astarion has to participate and consent to your "degradation" as well. He could just not do it. It might be distasteful to him. It being a "sex thing" really is the best case scenario. Degradation is a source of arousal for some, after all.


Lore wise, I don't think vampires are capable of fine tuning your facial expressions into a smile (?). I really don't know. Tav seems unsure about the kneeling for a moment, but genuinely enthusiastic about the threat of choking. Generally, I get the impression that Tav performs in part for Astarion's enjoyment. That's normal enough. Maybe even the objective basis, after which we're to ask why and arrive at different answers. I rather like that more than heavy handed alternatives.