Originally Posted by melgreg
I have always been of the opinion that both the trapped Tav and willing consort narratives are valid interpretations of the romance.

The Patch 6 facial expressions for Tav, which were overtly fearful in my opinion, were not open to interpretation. I could not imagine any scenario in which a Tav who was happy with the bargain they made would look so utterly miserable.

Now I have no idea what Larian intended for this romance path, so can only speculate. I do think the presence of the ‘Come on, let it hurt’ dialogue option in the turning scene is strong evidence that Larian knew at least some players would see the dynamic as consensual kink. That’s a button just screaming ‘push me’ to anyone who has ever entertained a masochistic thought.

At the same time, I think it remains problematic that there is an option to ask for gentleness instead and after the turning night the game in no way differentiates between the choice the player made. People who asked for tenderness are still presented with kissing scenes with sadistic elements (playful shoving, choking). So I fully empathize with anyone who doesn’t want to see a happy face on their Tav in the face of what could be a new and unexpected relationship element.

I completely agree that the lines for “ Gently” and “Let It Hurt” should have been delineated. Except I don't find Astarion's actions

Sadistic, more like dominant, as he doesn't cause actual physical pain after all. The shoves are playful, clearly do not cause pain, there is no choking as such, only imitation, Astarion just puts his hand on his throat, not even squeezing. The biting is nothing, Astarion is a biting boy and we love him that way. Even in the “Let it hurt” variation, he just bites on the neck, just like he bit during the first bite and the first night of intimacy with him. He can bite every day, there is an amulet that removes the anti-buff from his bite. I choose “Gently” just for that rare and exciting shot of him kissing my hand, because Astarion already bit me in the neck on a regular basis. Oh, and Astarion has also bitten me in the neck before, on the night of love before that. Though I wish I could have both - the hand kiss and the neck bite afterward. It would be beautiful, and more comfortable for Astarion-it's more comfortable to drink blood from the neck than from a vein in the arm.

But of course, for those who don't want any D/s scenes at all, other animations would have been worth doing. If there was a chance to talk to Astarion about it during the conversion scene, he'd probably realize it, and act differently than when he's sure Tav enjoys being dominated.

Originally Posted by Elly
Sure, but mods were not enough for players who didn't like the original expressions either. Mods can add to the experience, but they don't change what is presented in the story itself.

What is the story presenting? Astarion's strong love and affection, the return of his confidence, the revelation of his masculinity, the opportunity to see the real him. The way he truly begins to trust and be himself around Tav. Love-melding, where for each of the participants in this union, the other partner is the most important thing in life, the center of their world. And some lack of means of expressing this love. But Astarion expresses his affection with many expressions, thanks to Neil for such a beautiful play. Astarion's looks and voice are very heartfelt, many of his lines as well. I can see this being represented in the story. There is also an option for another story - Tav can imagine a monster, tell Astarion that he is Cazador 2.0, and various other breakup options (unfortunately, I'm not particularly interested in these lines, so I won't judge how well it's done, I remember some of the most famous ones, but, in general, I see that many people are convinced and play such a story, so it's probably done well). Mods can enable the missing roleplay and just change those inconsistencies in the story that prevent the player from fully embracing it. Stand up like puzzles and complete the missing, inconclusive pieces to result in an overall picture of a coherent and rich story.

Originally Posted by Elly
I mean what Haarlep does (give Tav the choice to either sleep with him or potentially die) is sexual coercion, and that can be triggering for players to see.

But this character is too weak to qualify for such a role. You can potentially die in any fight, probably if you're unlucky. When some troll on a bridge in some game tells you he'll eat you if you go any further because you can't go any further, and you kill him afterwards - would that be a threat of cannibalism? Would a troll in such a case provoke a reaction in those who have a strong dislike of cannibalism? Haarlep himself is rather seen as a potential dead man in this case. He had the chance to offer some sort of normal game that could actually be played with him and he could have stayed alive, but he chose to be the one to die by your hand and give you his loot.

Originally Posted by Anska
I keep it short because I don't want to get mixed up in this debate. It has been pointed out to you in the last thread on this topic (the most recent one that got closed) that what you say about triggers is wrong, I don't think I have to repeat it here. It's on page 4 of the other thread. Summing up my only intended contribution: What might be an ok scene for you can be deeply disturbing or triggering for someone else, and trying to diminish or invalidate other experiences because they aren't your own seems unfair. Or: I agree with what Elly said on the topic.

My focus in this case is on the existing official regulations for setting age rating for movies/video games and the regulations that specify in which case there should be a mandatory trigger warning. The kissing scenes featured in patch 6 should by these norms have a mandatory warning, and the agreed upon D/s scenes can be in an R rated game without a special warning. Unfortunately, game or video content cannot take into account specific people's private personal triggers, alas. I myself experienced my own emotional trigger after patch 6, clearly not intended by the narrative. Unlike people who were victims of SA/DA and experienced different, far more severe triggers than I did. I'm not devaluing anyone's experience, I'm focusing on standard content requirements.

One life, one love - until the world falls down.