|
|
|
addict
|
addict
Joined: Nov 2023
|
If you want to discuss how he feels about Tav, I think it may be better to move this to a Story & Character discussion thread, or end it here and agree to disagree. Those discussions tend to go on endlessly, and I think we've now both made our opinions clear on whether changing the kisses in that way would make sense or not. Nah, I'd rather end it here. I've had plenty of discussions already. I'm just glad the patch is coming soon and the drama can start dying down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2024
|
Yes, I - as many others - find this explicit repeatable non-consensual scene inappropiate for several reasons, and we were discussing about that for months. You are free to see it otherwise. I just don't think there is a need to talk about other scenes elsewhere in the game and suggest to give Feedback on them, if you or someone else found something inappropiate - I am sure Larian might check this by an expert, and if inappropiate, change it. I think you may have misunderstood. I only brought up these scenes as examples for what has been in the game since release, because someone else said the game shouldn't contain content that could be potentially triggering for anyone, even if it's optional. I fully support you and others not having to see content you are not comfortable with in your games. That's why, again, I think it should be optional. I just don't think the story should be censored completely. The narratives other people have crafted are important to them too, for reasons that can also be very personal. I don't think they should be taken away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
|
I have always been of the opinion that both the trapped Tav and willing consort narratives are valid interpretations of the romance.
The Patch 6 facial expressions for Tav, which were overtly fearful in my opinion, were not open to interpretation. I could not imagine any scenario in which a Tav who was happy with the bargain they made would look so utterly miserable.
Now I have no idea what Larian intended for this romance path, so can only speculate. I do think the presence of the ‘Come on, let it hurt’ dialogue option in the turning scene is strong evidence that Larian knew at least some players would see the dynamic as consensual kink. That’s a button just screaming ‘push me’ to anyone who has ever entertained a masochistic thought.
At the same time, I think it remains problematic that there is an option to ask for gentleness instead and after the turning night the game in no way differentiates between the choice the player made. People who asked for tenderness are still presented with kissing scenes with sadistic elements (playful shoving, choking). So I fully empathize with anyone who doesn’t want to see a happy face on their Tav in the face of what could be a new and unexpected relationship element. I completely agree that the lines for “ Gently” and “Let It Hurt” should have been delineated. Except I don't find Astarion's actions Sadistic, more like dominant, as he doesn't cause actual physical pain after all. The shoves are playful, clearly do not cause pain, there is no choking as such, only imitation, Astarion just puts his hand on his throat, not even squeezing. The biting is nothing, Astarion is a biting boy and we love him that way. Even in the “Let it hurt” variation, he just bites on the neck, just like he bit during the first bite and the first night of intimacy with him. He can bite every day, there is an amulet that removes the anti-buff from his bite. I choose “Gently” just for that rare and exciting shot of him kissing my hand, because Astarion already bit me in the neck on a regular basis. Oh, and Astarion has also bitten me in the neck before, on the night of love before that. Though I wish I could have both - the hand kiss and the neck bite afterward. It would be beautiful, and more comfortable for Astarion-it's more comfortable to drink blood from the neck than from a vein in the arm. But of course, for those who don't want any D/s scenes at all, other animations would have been worth doing. If there was a chance to talk to Astarion about it during the conversion scene, he'd probably realize it, and act differently than when he's sure Tav enjoys being dominated. Sure, but mods were not enough for players who didn't like the original expressions either. Mods can add to the experience, but they don't change what is presented in the story itself. What is the story presenting? Astarion's strong love and affection, the return of his confidence, the revelation of his masculinity, the opportunity to see the real him. The way he truly begins to trust and be himself around Tav. Love-melding, where for each of the participants in this union, the other partner is the most important thing in life, the center of their world. And some lack of means of expressing this love. But Astarion expresses his affection with many expressions, thanks to Neil for such a beautiful play. Astarion's looks and voice are very heartfelt, many of his lines as well. I can see this being represented in the story. There is also an option for another story - Tav can imagine a monster, tell Astarion that he is Cazador 2.0, and various other breakup options (unfortunately, I'm not particularly interested in these lines, so I won't judge how well it's done, I remember some of the most famous ones, but, in general, I see that many people are convinced and play such a story, so it's probably done well). Mods can enable the missing roleplay and just change those inconsistencies in the story that prevent the player from fully embracing it. Stand up like puzzles and complete the missing, inconclusive pieces to result in an overall picture of a coherent and rich story. I mean what Haarlep does (give Tav the choice to either sleep with him or potentially die) is sexual coercion, and that can be triggering for players to see. But this character is too weak to qualify for such a role. You can potentially die in any fight, probably if you're unlucky. When some troll on a bridge in some game tells you he'll eat you if you go any further because you can't go any further, and you kill him afterwards - would that be a threat of cannibalism? Would a troll in such a case provoke a reaction in those who have a strong dislike of cannibalism? Haarlep himself is rather seen as a potential dead man in this case. He had the chance to offer some sort of normal game that could actually be played with him and he could have stayed alive, but he chose to be the one to die by your hand and give you his loot. I keep it short because I don't want to get mixed up in this debate. It has been pointed out to you in the last thread on this topic (the most recent one that got closed) that what you say about triggers is wrong, I don't think I have to repeat it here. It's on page 4 of the other thread. Summing up my only intended contribution: What might be an ok scene for you can be deeply disturbing or triggering for someone else, and trying to diminish or invalidate other experiences because they aren't your own seems unfair. Or: I agree with what Elly said on the topic. My focus in this case is on the existing official regulations for setting age rating for movies/video games and the regulations that specify in which case there should be a mandatory trigger warning. The kissing scenes featured in patch 6 should by these norms have a mandatory warning, and the agreed upon D/s scenes can be in an R rated game without a special warning. Unfortunately, game or video content cannot take into account specific people's private personal triggers, alas. I myself experienced my own emotional trigger after patch 6, clearly not intended by the narrative. Unlike people who were victims of SA/DA and experienced different, far more severe triggers than I did. I'm not devaluing anyone's experience, I'm focusing on standard content requirements.
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2024
|
I mean what Haarlep does (give Tav the choice to either sleep with him or potentially die) is sexual coercion, and that can be triggering for players to see. But this character is too weak to qualify for such a role. You can potentially die in any fight, probably if you're unlucky. When some troll on a bridge in some game tells you he'll eat you if you go any further because you can't go any further, and you kill him afterwards - would that be a threat of cannibalism? Would a troll in such a case provoke a reaction in those who have a strong dislike of cannibalism? Haarlep himself is rather seen as a potential dead man in this case. He had the chance to offer some sort of normal game that could actually be played with him and he could have stayed alive, but he chose to be the one to die by your hand and give you his loot. My point is that the situation Tav finds themselves in with Haarlep (his ultimatum) can be triggering, and that potentially upsetting content shouldn't have to be cut completely from the game, especially if it's avoidable - like Haarlep is, and like optional Patch 6 faces in the kisses would be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
|
My point is that the situation Tav finds themselves in with Haarlep (his ultimatum) can be triggering, and that potentially upsetting content shouldn't have to be cut completely from the game, especially if it's avoidable - like Haarlep is, and like optional Patch 6 faces in the kisses would be. Unlike the kissing scene in Patch 6, the Haarlep scene did not receive the same number of complaints. Players in general perceived it relatively positively. And since the Haarlep scene has been in the game for a very long time, we can assume that this scene was not perceived as traumatizing by the audience, including the players who tried it for the test, unlike the large number of complaints and letters that Larian received after the “Valentine's Day” update. And of course, in my opinion, if this scene gathered a certain amount of complaints, like the patch 6 kisses, it too should have been changed or removed from the game.
Last edited by Marielle; 16/08/24 07:02 AM.
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: May 2024
|
During the party Tav seems to behave more like a bored housewife who wants to go on an adventure on her own more than anything else. You've just described perfectly how I interpret that epilogue dialogue, lol.  The fact that they're now changing the expressions at all proves that they care about player agency I wish we could know for sure, but we don't really know why they've decided to make adjustments to the facial expressions during animations and in other places of the game (not just for AA). Some changes to facial expressions and body language have also been made during normal epilogue conversations, for example, and I've no clue why they deemed that was necessary. But of course, for those who don't want any D/s scenes at all, other animations would have been worth doing. If there was a chance to talk to Astarion about it during the conversion scene, he'd probably realize it, and act differently than when he's sure Tav enjoys being dominated. I agree, I think Larian could have treated the whole thing with much more care from the beginning (regarding Patch 6 kisses).
Last edited by Celesti4; 16/08/24 07:32 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2024
|
My point is that the situation Tav finds themselves in with Haarlep (his ultimatum) can be triggering, and that potentially upsetting content shouldn't have to be cut completely from the game, especially if it's avoidable - like Haarlep is, and like optional Patch 6 faces in the kisses would be. Unlike the kissing scene in Patch 6, the Haarlep scene did not receive the same number of complaints. Players in general perceived it relatively positively. And since the Haarlep scene has been in the game for a very long time, we can assume that this scene was not perceived as traumatizing by the audience, including the players who tried it for the test, unlike the large number of complaints and letters that Larian received after the “Valentine's Day” update. And of course, in my opinion, if this scene gathered a certain amount of complaints, like the patch 6 kisses, it too should have been changed or removed from the game.
That's not the point I'm trying to make. I don't think either Haarlep or the original kisses should be removed. Not everything that has the potential to upset someone should be completely removed from art. The kisses the way they are have been in the game for half of its release now. Many players including myself have gotten used to them and incorporated them into our stories. Instead of censoring them completely, I think the best solution would be making Tav's expressions optional. That way, players who do not want to see them in their games could avoid them without having to drop the romance path altogether, and players who did like them the way they have been for the last six months wouldn't have to lose their stories to a new narrative either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
|
My point is that the situation Tav finds themselves in with Haarlep (his ultimatum) can be triggering, and that potentially upsetting content shouldn't have to be cut completely from the game, especially if it's avoidable - like Haarlep is, and like optional Patch 6 faces in the kisses would be. Unlike the kissing scene in Patch 6, the Haarlep scene did not receive the same number of complaints. Players in general perceived it relatively positively. And since the Haarlep scene has been in the game for a very long time, we can assume that this scene was not perceived as traumatizing by the audience, including the players who tried it for the test, unlike the large number of complaints and letters that Larian received after the “Valentine's Day” update. And of course, in my opinion, if this scene gathered a certain amount of complaints, like the patch 6 kisses, it too should have been changed or removed from the game.
That's not the point I'm trying to make. I don't think either Haarlep or the original kisses should be removed. Not everything that has the potential to upset someone should be completely removed from art. The kisses the way they are have been in the game for half of its release now. Many players including myself have gotten used to them and incorporated them into our stories. Instead of censoring them completely, I think the best solution would be making Tav's expressions optional. That way, players who do not want to see them in their games could avoid them without having to drop the romance path altogether, and players who did like them the way they have been for the last six months wouldn't have to lose their stories to a new narrative either. I totally agree with you. Bg3 is a mature game with horror themes and I'm totally ok, that something creepy like Haarlep is in the game. I don't care about kissing animation much, but I do think that a good story sometimes let's you feel uncomfortable. And defeating Haarlep gives you a lot of gratification exactly because you take back your autonomy.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Dec 2023
|
The discussion is going in circles, then other players would also like to have things optional for other companions. For some Dark Urge players, who initially interpret little romance or anything sexual in these kisses, the evil Dark Urge story with AA has been ruined for 6 months because of the facial expressions. I would also like it better if the story of the Dark Urge and Tav were completely separate. The kisses themselves, an evil Durge certainly likes them, but the facial expressions, how can you incorporate them into any story? "Darling, you are a really evil vampire... look at my face, I'm really scared of you?" And pretend that the king at my side is stupid?... pfffft. I refrained from kissing AA for 6 months and when I did, I threw him off the cliffs afterwards and who knows what the poor guy had to suffer from other Durges for it. Most evil players will be very grateful to Larian for this change and the choice they will have in the evil endings, will also make many people cheer.
I hope Mephistopheles has enough room for all the 7000 souls needed for the ascension of Astarion that will check in with Patch 7.
Last edited by Sini; 16/08/24 02:45 PM.
"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
|
|
|
|
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Aug 2021
|
I hope Mephistopheles has enough room for the souls that will check in with Patch 7. I suppose damning people to hell is one way of keeping the conversation from going in circles, but I’d rather a perfectly spherical thread than one with this kind of invective. There’s a good chance I just misunderstood your joke, but we had a nice “agree to disagree” vibe going and I fear this could threaten that. Please play nicer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Dec 2023
|
I apologize, I thought it was a harmless joke and would be understood as such. I added the 7000 souls for Astarion's Ascension.
"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
|
|
|
|
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Aug 2021
|
I apologize, I thought it was a harmless joke and would be understood as such. I added the 7000 souls for Astarion's Ascension. Whoops, my bad for misunderstanding. I appreciate the edit. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
|
I hope Mephistopheles has enough room for the souls that will check in with Patch 7. I suppose damning people to hell is one way of keeping the conversation from going in circles, but I’d rather a perfectly spherical thread than one with this kind of invective. There’s a good chance I just misunderstood your joke, but we had a nice “agree to disagree” vibe going and I fear this could threaten that. Please play nicer. I understand it the way, that Sini was mentioning the new, great evil endings, as Swen and the announcement have mentioned, are coming in Patch 7 (and seems they have seen them and found them impressive), believing a lot of people will go for an evil route. Is that an invective? Edit: Okay, it's cleared up already  My point is that the situation Tav finds themselves in with Haarlep (his ultimatum) can be triggering, and that potentially upsetting content shouldn't have to be cut completely from the game, especially if it's avoidable - like Haarlep is, and like optional Patch 6 faces in the kisses would be. Unlike the kissing scene in Patch 6, the Haarlep scene did not receive the same number of complaints. Players in general perceived it relatively positively. And since the Haarlep scene has been in the game for a very long time, we can assume that this scene was not perceived as traumatizing by the audience, including the players who tried it for the test, unlike the large number of complaints and letters that Larian received after the “Valentine's Day” update. And of course, in my opinion, if this scene gathered a certain amount of complaints, like the patch 6 kisses, it too should have been changed or removed from the game.
That's not the point I'm trying to make. I don't think either Haarlep or the original kisses should be removed. Not everything that has the potential to upset someone should be completely removed from art. I myself don't count an animated scene of sexual violence, which uses vanilla BDSM elements, released for Valentine's day, repeatable for players for letting their character kiss their LI, as art. But we will agree to disagree on that and that everyone has their own opinion and definition of art. In my opinion the added kisses around the Valentine's day were fanservice meant to be *spicy* and enjoyable for all the D/s, kink and BDSM lovers (those who enjoy the consensual and sensual kneeling scene and throat grabbing in his romance), which just went horribly wrong with a misunderstanding of D/s dynamics somewhere in the team, who was not well versed in this topic and simply thought, that choosen fearful and sad face would be the right thing for D/s. The fact, that Larian posted the exact kneeling scene right for Valentine's day to promote their "love is in the air" patch and their game is a strong evidence - including the overall reactions (*hot* and *spicy*) on that little gif. I still doubt and hope not, that Larian intentionally wanted to present and promote their big patch with a depiction of an SA scene (or "circle of abuse"-scene) and I assume they are simply improving and correcting this scene (it's a "kiss" for a romance after all!) in their next patch now among other animations. It's understandable, that you want the non-consensual scene stay like this in the game for your own roleplay. There are but also people who like this repeatable depiction of SA (non-consensual) from patch 6 to be removed from the entire game as well, and this for several and different reasons, we discussed the last months. A consensual D/s scene completely similiar to a scene of SA - separated from each other only by an answer and a facial expression, would further harm the kink and BDSM community, which is already often misunderstood and condemned by people, by making "abuse" and "kink" or"D/s dynamics" appear literally "interchangeable." I ask Larian not to create or keep a second scene in the game that contains the exact same BDSM / D/s elements to depict any kind of "circle of abuse"-idea respectively sexual violence. When people are already mistaking and condemning consensual D/s dynamics (Tav enjoying BDSM elements in Patch 7) as "romantizing abuse", or similiar things, where else will this lead? I find this very concerning and hurtful. Lack of understanding, kinkshaming and insults towards the kink and BDSM community and people who enjoy consensual D/s dynamics have unfortunately increased significantly due to Patch 6 (D/s elements combined with non-consensual Tav). There is absolutely no need to use those elements against us. If desired (by Larian), a "circle of abuse" could be shown on another way or a completely another animation or occasion, which would make more sense than Tav backkissing Astarion in a kneeling scene with a smirk/smile on his face (yes, a smile! in patch 6 scene), especially, as the kiss animations overall makes not a lot of sense for a realistic depiction of abuse, because it is sexualized. Different Feedback and suggestions were given here as well as in the Discord channel by a lot of people already, including the OP. As far as I know, Larian viewed all of them. Patch 7 will change and improve the facial expressions and throw this depiction of SV out of their game and out of the D/s dynamics - for what a lot of people are grateful and now looking forward to the patch to be released to finally enjoy to play again.
"I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear."
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
|
That's not the point I'm trying to make. I don't think either Haarlep or the original kisses should be removed. Not everything that has the potential to upset someone should be completely removed from art.
The kisses the way they are have been in the game for half of its release now. Many players including myself have gotten used to them and incorporated them into our stories. Instead of censoring them completely, I think the best solution would be making Tav's expressions optional. That way, players who do not want to see them in their games could avoid them without having to drop the romance path altogether, and players who did like them the way they have been for the last six months wouldn't have to lose their stories to a new narrative either. Yes, unfortunately you and I misunderstood each other a bit. I don't mean removing Haarlep or generally removing any scenes that might upset someone. I don't mean scenes that can cause upset, but specifically content that requires a specific warning. There was no such content in BG3 before patch 6, and there is no other scene in the game now that can be compared to that. I'll try to make a clearer comparison to scenes from other games that do contain content similar to patch 6's kissing content, and accordingly, those games contain a special warning. *** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning*** The game Hatred. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/H1CZzOH.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/htrNdvS.jpg) One of the scenes of possible killing of the victim. This is one of the scenes that caused the game to be removed from Steam for a while (then returned), which was a trigger for many people (though there was more than one such scene in Hatred), causing Steam to be flooded with complaints about the game. This is also a repetitive violence scene like the patch 6 kisses, you can kill civilians in Hatred as many times as you want and activate these scenes as many times as you want, just like with Astarion's kisses from patch 6. Dead Space 2 game. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AnHP3iw.jpg) Isaac pokes out his eye. This is a one-time but obligatory story scene, without it you will not be able to pass the game. Also similar content and similar facial expressions. The game had to raise the age rating because of this scene. BG3 ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/w6YutKu.png) BG3 is rated M (mature 17+) by ESRB on Steam. Hatred is rated A (Adults only) by ESRB in Steam. Both Hatred and Dead Space 2 have an additional warning on the screen, unlike BG3. I understand the frustration of people who bought the game after patch 6 for the opportunity to roleplay special romance and relevant scenes. I've read reviews from players who say it's frustrating to be the minority and now romance has become too “vanilla” for them. Of course, it's up to the developers, if they want to keep the content in their game for the audience they've already attracted so as not to disappoint them, they might be willing to raise their ESRB rating to A. But, in this case, if the game is ready to satisfy all of its players, including those who came to the game after patch 6 (or because of it), then they should certainly satisfy the audience that wants a classic romance with Astarion after Ascension. These players bought the game at release, someone involved back in EA, and they had no idea that their favorite character would become a romantic partner exclusively for D/s. They played the game for six months and then suddenly found themselves unable to play without mods anymore because they find the kissing scenes unacceptable to them because of the actions and animations themselves, regardless of Tav's facial expressions. For these players, the patch 5 kiss should have been returned to the “Gently” line. It wouldn't create any problems for the game itself, it wouldn't increase the rating, it would just improve the game and add variety to it with the possibility of inclusion for all players. The very idea of D/s romance in the game is great, but it shouldn't be mandatory, you should give players a choice whether they want it or not. I totally agree with you. Bg3 is a mature game with horror themes and I'm totally ok, that something creepy like Haarlep is in the game. I don't care about kissing animation much, but I do think that a good story sometimes let's you feel uncomfortable. And defeating Haarlep gives you a lot of gratification exactly because you take back your autonomy. Honestly, when I went through the game I just fought Haarlep, I liked the fight, but I had no idea about any “back of autonomy” thing. How can you get back something that no one took from you? To learn about Haarlep, if you don't want to consent to sex with him, you need to at least read about it or watch a video. There's nothing creepy about him in the game itself, he's a rather vulgar but unusual and curious enemy. I don't see the difference between a “Take your clothes off” line and a “I'm going to kill you now” style line - both are cause for a fight.
Last edited by Marielle; 16/08/24 08:28 PM.
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
apprentice
|
|
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
|
The Haarleep thing is gross because Hope mentions how she hates that room and you can't even bring that up. I do tend to ignore Haarleep exists though because everything around it is disgusting. The companion reactions are atrocious (except Astarion), it's wants to be a cute quirky sex scene but also non consensual and the game completely falls on its face handling that with any seriousness making me wish the whole thing was never included.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Aug 2024
|
Some of us never interpreted it as a kink or bdsm thing though, which is precisely the reason why the new expressions bother us. In fact, if it was supposed to be bdsm/kinky, the old expressions might even still apply because a lot of bdsm is based on cnc, and that is also a valid kink to have and shouldn’t be shamed either. Edit: Also, I’m sorry, but going back and forth between calling the kisses a kink and SA makes it hard for me to pinpoint why exactly you’re against the addition of a toggle. If you think they’re a depiction of SA, wouldn’t Tav reacting positively be even more disturbing?
Last edited by ladyincognita; 17/08/24 03:24 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
|
That's not the point I'm trying to make. I don't think either Haarlep or the original kisses should be removed. Not everything that has the potential to upset someone should be completely removed from art.
The kisses the way they are have been in the game for half of its release now. Many players including myself have gotten used to them and incorporated them into our stories. Instead of censoring them completely, I think the best solution would be making Tav's expressions optional. That way, players who do not want to see them in their games could avoid them without having to drop the romance path altogether, and players who did like them the way they have been for the last six months wouldn't have to lose their stories to a new narrative either. Yes, unfortunately you and I misunderstood each other a bit. I don't mean removing Haarlep or generally removing any scenes that might upset someone. I don't mean scenes that can cause upset, but specifically content that requires a specific warning. There was no such content in BG3 before patch 6, and there is no other scene in the game now that can be compared to that. I'll try to make a clearer comparison to scenes from other games that do contain content similar to patch 6's kissing content, and accordingly, those games contain a special warning. *** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning*** The game Hatred. One of the scenes of possible killing of the victim. This is one of the scenes that caused the game to be removed from Steam for a while (then returned), which was a trigger for many people (though there was more than one such scene in Hatred), causing Steam to be flooded with complaints about the game. This is also a repetitive violence scene like the patch 6 kisses, you can kill civilians in Hatred as many times as you want and activate these scenes as many times as you want, just like with Astarion's kisses from patch 6. Dead Space 2 game. Isaac pokes out his eye. This is a one-time but obligatory story scene, without it you will not be able to pass the game. Also similar content and similar facial expressions. The game had to raise the age rating because of this scene. BG3 BG3 is rated M (mature 17+) by ESRB on Steam. Hatred is rated A (Adults only) by ESRB in Steam. Both Hatred and Dead Space 2 have an additional warning on the screen, unlike BG3. I understand the frustration of people who bought the game after patch 6 for the opportunity to roleplay special romance and relevant scenes. I've read reviews from players who say it's frustrating to be the minority and now romance has become too “vanilla” for them. Of course, it's up to the developers, if they want to keep the content in their game for the audience they've already attracted so as not to disappoint them, they might be willing to raise their ESRB rating to A. But, in this case, if the game is ready to satisfy all of its players, including those who came to the game after patch 6 (or because of it), then they should certainly satisfy the audience that wants a classic romance with Astarion after Ascension. These players bought the game at release, someone involved back in EA, and they had no idea that their favorite character would become a romantic partner exclusively for D/s. They played the game for six months and then suddenly found themselves unable to play without mods anymore because they find the kissing scenes unacceptable to them because of the actions and animations themselves, regardless of Tav's facial expressions. For these players, the patch 5 kiss should have been returned to the “Gently” line. It wouldn't create any problems for the game itself, it wouldn't increase the rating, it would just improve the game and add variety to it with the possibility of inclusion for all players. The very idea of D/s romance in the game is great, but it shouldn't be mandatory, you should give players a choice whether they want it or not. I totally agree with you. Bg3 is a mature game with horror themes and I'm totally ok, that something creepy like Haarlep is in the game. I don't care about kissing animation much, but I do think that a good story sometimes let's you feel uncomfortable. And defeating Haarlep gives you a lot of gratification exactly because you take back your autonomy. Honestly, when I went through the game I just fought Haarlep, I liked the fight, but I had no idea about any “back of autonomy” thing. How can you get back something that no one took from you? To learn about Haarlep, if you don't want to consent to sex with him, you need to at least read about it or watch a video. There's nothing creepy about him in the game itself, he's a rather vulgar but unusual and curious enemy. I don't see the difference between a “Take your clothes off” line and a “I'm going to kill you now” style line - both are cause for a fight. Please talk to Hope in the bodoir and specifically ask her if she was in here before and then we can talk again. Honestly, that is worse, than any face animation in the game and it broke my heart. It is very much hinted, that she was SAed there. Haarlep giving you an ultimatum "Have sex with me or get killed" is pretty much in the SA category. I was pretty shocked,when I encountered him the first time. So for me, it felt like taking back my agency in that room by killing the creep, especially after talking to poor Hope. It's totally ok, if others see it differently, I'm not here to convince anyone, I was agreeing with the other poster about a similar view in this matter. I know that some people like Haarlep - and a lot more like Raphael, who very likely orchestrated Hopes bad experience in there or even participatd. But as we cleared up, people are moved and triggered by different things. I personally think, that the game giving a general warning in the beginning and being for mature audience is enough. The first two intro scenes also give a pretty clear picture of the more horrifying content, you can expect - the body horror of the whole mind flayer deal and the psychological side. And I would not put a face during a kiss over everything, that happens in the House of Healing for example, but others, you included, do, which is fine. I personally don't play a DnD game for romance, but it seems, especially in the BG and Dragon Age fan crowd, romance is pretty popular, so people have different things, they want from a game. I won't get into the kissing animation discussion, I just wanted to go into the horror aspects of the game - for a DnD game, all BG games are pretty dark and gritty.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2022
|
I agree with fylimar.
On a side note, I can't understand such hyperfocus on one aspect of the game, when there is plenty to like. If something feels out of place, I don't lose my shit, I justify it for myself or pretend it never happened and continue playing the way I want. The MC looks shocked while grabbed by Astarion yet I know my MC loves him? I say my main was just caught of guard and live on, no relationship ruined. On the contrary, my MC looked well too pleased during the uncomfortable situation? I say that was about keeping their cool in public or some such. You don't need to be spoon fed by the game at any given moment, in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
|
Some of us never interpreted it as a kink or bdsm thing though, which is precisely the reason why the new expressions bother us. In fact, if it was supposed to be bdsm/kinky, the old expressions might even still apply because a lot of bdsm is based on cnc, and that is also a valid kink to have and shouldn’t be shamed either. Edit: Also, I’m sorry, but going back and forth between calling the kisses a kink and SA makes it hard for me to pinpoint why exactly you’re against the addition of a toggle. If you think they’re a depiction of SA, wouldn’t Tav reacting positively be even more disturbing? I don't know where you got your information - I am concerned by your statement. BDSM is already often misjudged and condemned. Yes, I know, and I think that's why there are so much lack of understanding and players condemning and belittle us for letting Astarion ascend in the romance. a lot of bdsm is based on cnc No. That's not true. cnc, and that is also a valid kink to have and shouldn’t be shamed either. Yes consensual non-consensual would be a valid kink. But it isn't and it is not received as cnc. (You stated yourself: "Some of us never interpreted it as a kink or bdsm thing though, which is precisely the reason why the new expressions bother us") In fact, if it was supposed to be bdsm/kinky, the old expressions might even still apply Yes, for us it was supposed, there are a lot of hints as mentioned above, like posting it for the "love is in the air"-Patch to promote their patch and the use of BDSM elements. And again, I find it concerning, how many people misjudge this scene: No, like this, it is not consensual non-con, it is non-con or abuse / rape fantasies, it shows sexual violence as the reasons, we have discussed and even pictured before several times, I will not repeat it, but you might read the two old threads about it and how people got seriously affected by having seen SV. Edit: Also, I’m sorry, but going back and forth between calling the kisses a kink and SA makes it hard for me to pinpoint why exactly you’re against the addition of a toggle. If you think they’re a depiction of SA, wouldn’t Tav reacting positively be even more disturbing? No, a consensual kiss is not disturbing - at least for the majority of people. And at least 90 % prefer the kiss to be consensual. It's easy: If the scene is consensual, then it is a kink/bdsm thing or D/s dynamics, if the kiss is non-consensual, then (and it doesn't need! and shouldn't use BDSM elements in order not to bring the community further into disrepute) it is a depiction of SV respectively On a side note, I can't understand such hyperfocus on one aspect of the game, when there is plenty to like. If something feels out of place, I don't lose my shit, I justify it for myself or pretend it never happened and continue playing the way I want. . In general, I would agree with you. We are looking forward to the new patch, for the brand new evil endings and overall improvements of differents things The way the kisses seem to be enhanced in the upcoming patch 7 and the description sounds like Larian now had an expert with them to make the adjustments. *thumbs up*
"I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Aug 2021
|
On a side note, I can't understand such hyperfocus on one aspect of the game, when there is plenty to like. If something feels out of place, I don't lose my shit Sometimes, living beings need to “lose their shit” in order to survive. Sometimes, that reaction is more harmful than helpful. It is what it is. This (and similar) thread(s) can help posters process their thoughts and feelings. Hopefully, you don’t need to understand them to see that popping in with fecal imagery serves no good purpose. I’m asking you what I asked of everyone else: Do not belittle anyone’s opinion; do not lash out at all.
|
|
|
|
|
