Originally Posted by ladyincognita
Some of us never interpreted it as a kink or bdsm thing though, which is precisely the reason why the new expressions bother us. In fact, if it was supposed to be bdsm/kinky, the old expressions might even still apply because a lot of bdsm is based on cnc, and that is also a valid kink to have and shouldn’t be shamed either.

I never once named kissing animations specificallyEdit: Also, I’m sorry, but going back and forth between calling the kisses a kink and SA makes it hard for me to pinpoint why exactly you’re against the addition of a toggle. If you think they’re a depiction of SA, wouldn’t Tav reacting positively be even more disturbing?[/spoiler]

No, it isn't. I understand that you like dead dove and not D/s, and that's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of either, but please, before you judge scenes that reflect other people's tastes, try doing a little research on the matter before making judgments that may be in bad faith and offend those players who like those scenes. In order to fill the information gap, I'll put Seramina's post here under a spoiler from the thread where we were discussing the kissing issues of patch 6. I think this post explains everything in a very accessible and informative way.

Originally Posted by Seramina
I'm gonna jump in here as someone who has knowledge of the BDSM scene for a bit since people are bringing specifically SM up, which is not what the kisses are portraying and I think it's important to understand what the specific terminology here since BDSM is often misunderstood to a harmful degree. SM in kink culture is about pain and pleasure, not about fear (unless it's a specific scene you're role playing but I highly doubt the devs thought about putting a sub-culture of a sub-culture into the game, and if they did they failed in their portrayal). Spanking is SM, for example. Very vanilla, basic SM, but that's what it is. It's meant to be consensual and enjoyable to both parties, even when roleplaying a non/dub con scene (which you could argue the kisses are but it's executed so horridly I don't think that holds water here). The mind control/noncon stuff aren't actually BDSM, they're their own specific kink, and they shouldn't be lumped together with BDSM where trust and respect are integral to a healthy dynamic.

With that in mind, in my opinion the kisses are trying to display D/s dynamics, not SM.

Dominant/submissive dynamics are usually misunderstood (look at 50 Shades for example), because a lot of people don't understand the submissive thing (wanting to not be in control). It usually boils down to people thinking submission is humiliating/degrading/lesser what have you; it can of course be about those (if both parties agree and it's enjoyable to them), but more often it's about being able to safely give up control to a trusted party and just not having to think; it can be about pleasing another person, or just being taken care of. People also think the domination thing is just about being able to boss someone around, when often it also involves caring for another and meeting their needs and showing that you are worthy of your sub placing their trust in you so thoroughly they let you have complete control of themselves. One big misconception is also that it's always about sex, when it's not. D/s is often more psychological, and it's always consensual and enjoyable to both parties. It's also one of the more fundamental parts of BDSM because the power dynamic thing is kinda baked into it all, but D/s is also its own thing and to me it seems like Larian wanted to go specifically for that.

Kneeling is one of the most basic D/s things, as is face grabbing. Grabbing someone's face is a control thing; in this case, it's about who controls the kiss and it's so vanilla people who don't do BDSM do it. It's even common in movies and books (and everyone seems to agree it's hot so I don't understand how Larian screwed that up here). It can just look a little different in D/s scenes. Unless you're doing a dub/non con scene, the sub should visibly enjoy it because it's meant to be enjoyable.

And kneeling is one of the the first things you're introduced to in D/s scenes. That's how basic it is. The thing about the kneeling here is that you're doing it for a reward (the kiss). This is where the sub should be ecstatic because they're getting a reward. The moment Tav realizes they're getting kissed they should be beaming in a D/s situation. They've done the right thing, they've "pleased their master" and that's what you aim for as a sub. If your sub looks scared (and you're not doing a scene where that is expected) you immediately stop everything and check on them.

The animations look like they're made by someone who heard "D/s power dynamics" and just put their frankly insulting misconception in the game. It's like someone who thinks kink is weird and gross just assumes that D/s is all about humiliation or something and thought that if you have to kneel you're not going to enjoy it (which makes me think the animations were done by a straight man with no experience or knowledge of BDSM because they're often the ones who think kneeling is supposed to be humiliating). There's a set amount of expressions coded for the characters and they just slapped the scared one in there because they thought it looked best for this. They probably assumed that having Tav not be into it would be good because "normal" people don't enjoy submitting or something. Astarion can enjoy dominating since he's evil, though (because evil=not normal I guess), and maybe that's why they made Tav scared? Because of course you'd be scared of the vampire lord? In reality Tav should look happy. They should be smiling. Astarion should be delighted his partner trusts him (which I reiterate is an essential part of BDSM!) and listens to him.
Portrayals like these are extremely harmful to the kink community since they reinforce the idea that kink is "gross" and abnormal and "normal" people (the player) don't enjoy it. It's inaccurate and disrespectful. They took a dynamic where trust and respect are the core elements and turned it into the complete opposite of what it's supposed to be. If their goal was to show toxic D/s dynamics I guess they succeeded but nowhere in the game did they give a heads up that this is what the dynamic would be. D/s, sure, it fits Astarion, but nothing about his character suggests he'd enjoy an unwilling partner. I'd say the opposite should be true just based on his history. Astarion should be a borderline service dom, at the very least he should want a partner that's into what he's offering.

I don't understand how the devs screwed this up so bad. At least the fix is easy (some changes to animations; nothing needs to be changed from the ground up), so hopefully Larian gets on it. Right now the kisses are triggering, abusive, and harmful to an entire kink community that's already misunderstood and rarely portrayed well. That's an accomplishment in its own right and if the devs wanted that then congrats they succeeded.

Personally I'm gonna play other games until the animations are changed, and I've already sent Larian feedback on this. I recommend others do the same since direct feedback is something they can't ignore and the more direct feedback on this they get, the clearer it will be for them that something needs to change.

I don't know if this is of interest or matters to anyone, but since the topic came up I thought it good to at least offer this information because even from the BDSM side this is really bad, and knowing why should matter in this discussion.

I never once named kissing animations specifically

"kinky and SA.” It's not the animations that make the SA/DA kissing scenes of patch 6, it's Tav's facial expressions directly. It's the facial expressions that turn the D/s scenes into SA scenes.

I'm not against “adding a toggle”, though from my perspective it's illogical and inappropriate in Astarion's story, and it would be much better to make a separate, more appropriate romantic interest for players who are fans of the respective genre. Raphael, for example, I think would be great for this role, given that, it turns out, his entire House of Hope sort of hints at it. I just think content like this should be rated accordingly and have all the necessary warnings. Tav's positive reaction is in no way disturbing because, once Tav's facial expressions were changed to positive, these scenes came to represent normal consensual D/s acceptable in an adult game without any additional warnings. That facial expression reflects my reaction to Astarion, my roleplay, well, and judging by the comments in various threads, the roleplay and reactions of many other players who have been asking for 6 months to be allowed to have a normal facial expression in a romance scene. Those players who don't like D/s, don't like the animations, and happy facial expressions don't make those scenes acceptable are certainly not going to be helped by facial expressions suitable for a “toxic romance” audience. They need other animations. And yes, there's an injustice in that because the game doesn't prepare the player for D/s in any way, the hints of dominance in Astarion's behavior are too non-obvious and can be interpreted in different ways. Astarion doesn't greet with “Hello, I am your master!” and doesn't make his graceful finger gesture demanding to kneel in the very first romantic scene with him. So this category of players was as upset and disappointed after patch 6 as your audience was after it was revealed that with patch 7 the kissing scenes would become happy kissing. And in this case Larian needs to make a two way switch, the facial expressions of patch 6 for your audience, and the kissing of patch 5 for that audience that wants classic romance.

Originally Posted by fylimar
Please talk to Hope in the bodoir and specifically ask her if she was in here before and then we can talk again. Honestly, that is worse, than any face animation in the game and it broke my heart.

Thanks for the info, I will find preservation and try to get that conversation. I must have asked her something else and didn't get that information. Unfortunately I can't remember right now at what point Hope appears in the boudoir, I would appreciate it if you could tell me exactly how to activate that conversation. What I personally don't like at all about the dialog system in BG3 is that the dialog regularly ends after certain lines, you don't manage to ask everything, and you sometimes aren't even aware of what you missed. And it's often unclear which lines are optional and can increase the dialog by giving additional information, and which are reactions or responses and can end the dialog. It seems that you have to save before each dialog and look at different options, and if you just play, half of the plot passes you by.

Originally Posted by fylimar
It is very much hinted, that she was SAed there. Haarlep giving you an ultimatum "Have sex with me or get killed" is pretty much in the SA category. I was pretty shocked,when I encountered him the first time. So for me, it felt like taking back my agency in that room by killing the creep, especially after talking to poor Hope. It's totally ok, if others see it differently, I'm not here to convince anyone, I was agreeing with the other poster about a similar view in this matter. I know that some people like Haarlep - and a lot more like Raphael, who very likely orchestrated Hopes bad experience in there or even participatd.

I'll definitely go through this scene, but now I know what's meant. You sympathize with Hope so much that by killing this creep, you're not only avenging her, you're taking back your agency.

One life, one love - until the world falls down.