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You told me "actually, you know, the topic of abuse is a pretty serious one" a few pages ago. Yes, that's exactly what I said. And that's why I think the kisses in patch 6 were a mockery of this serious topic. The circumstances under which they appeared in the game (on Valentine's Day), the way they were implemented (the kink demonstration). I was really hoping that Larian didn't mean it that way, and it wasn't a message about the “cycle of abuse”, because that kind of presentation of the topic just belittles the very topic of abuse. The fact that they've now corrected it has convinced me that they didn't mean any such thing. Just served up a collective fanon, but got the target audience wrong. People don't play the AA route for the sake of suffering, at least not by most people who actually play rather than watching on YouTube. If you believe the stats I've seen from the polls.
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There are players who play AA all the time: whether the TAV is good or bad with that story or another, AA is often the partner. For these players, for their narrative, kisses are a fundamental thing. For you, kisses are a relative thing, they are not that important. People don't play the AA route for the sake of suffering, at least not by most people who actually play rather than watching on YouTube. That's not true. Just because someone sees the romance path as more than a happy dark romance doesn't mean the story is less important to us or that we don't play it a lot.
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journeyman
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There are players who play AA all the time: whether the TAV is good or bad with that story or another, AA is often the partner. For these players, for their narrative, kisses are a fundamental thing. For you, kisses are a relative thing, they are not that important. That's not true. Just because someone sees the romance path as more than a happy dark romance doesn't mean the story is less important to us or that we don't play it a lot. I didn't said this in my previous message. I wrote that maybe some people don't play a certain narrative often and here I admit I took it a bit for granted, but I absolutely didn't say that for you the story is less important. I said that kisses, for the type of narrative you play, are a relative thing since, since it has been said that the TAV, in your imagination, hates being kissed in that way, I don't think you often make him ask to be kissed. And even you players, I doubt you like to see your TAV sad, suffering and scared often.
Last edited by Mordred92; 18/08/24 06:58 PM.
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I don't agree with leaving the original Patch 6 expressions in-game as an option because I feel they are too close to depicting assault and intimate partner violence for a game of this rating. It's rated for mature audiences. If it had required a different rating or a warning because of the kisses, that would have come with Patch 6. (One of the kisses has also been in the game for even longer than that, in Karlach's Origin route, including the expressions.)
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I said that kisses, for the type of narrative you play, are a relative thing since, since it has been said that the TAV, in your imagination, hates being kissed in that way, I don't think you often make him ask to be kissed. That wouldn't make the kisses a relative thing. It would still be decided for players who don't ask for kisses a lot that their Tavs would be ecstatic at being kissed that way. Even if someone would only choose them once and then never ask for them again, that would still be part of their story.
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enthusiast
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Characters who are tempted to go the other way - the paths of evil are Minthara and Astarion. And what fun is the game in that if you romance an evil character there will be a hint of fear from intimate things? There's no such thing. Just like there's no desire to play for good. “Good Path. Or you know you could potentially get raped and get discomfort in intimacy. We have an option for that, lucky if you're into that, but if you're not then the character won't stop (apparently), you'll be a victim (Evil Path)”. That's what so call “create chaos, you decide”, that was the official commercial for the summer of 2023, decide if you're a potential vampire abuse victim or not. Goodness it really wasn't in the game, it was fanon, personal interpretations (like that he won't listen to Tav\Du what they like, even though the intimate scene contradicts that), often ignoring that Spawn is as dangerous, as all of Astarion. But that's the game. So priority is given to the power couple, and all angst is limited to 3-4 lines, which lead to a breakup. In Tav-Freedom line. Astarion pouts that he's not fun to be with and his love wants to destroy the eternal bond, he's trying to get back Tav's consent with gifts and all he's can now, that's all he does. I criticized this angst line. It's almost impossible, Astarion is immoral all 3 acts, Tav cuddles him. Fanservice to make Astarion hiss and find out his tactics if Tav's eternal bond agreement changes abruptly. Written as a variant where Tav can leave Spawn Astarion, after all they've been through together. To be clear, I don't mind others scenes where it can discuss, the night, the reaction of all the companions about Tav's vampirism. But putting fear into kissing as an opition, so that the character can enjoy Tav's suffering, well. Zero original idea - the balance of dark and fun, engaging, in the character. Yes, that's exactly what I said. And that's why I think the kisses in patch 6 were a mockery of this serious topic. The circumstances under which they appeared in the game (on Valentine's Day), the way they were implemented (the kink demonstration). I was really hoping that Larian didn't mean it that way, and it wasn't a message about the “cycle of abuse”, because that kind of presentation of the topic just belittles the very topic of abuse. The fact that they've now corrected it has convinced me that they didn't mean any such thing. Just served up a collective fanon, but got the target audience wrong That's right. Now it's also the official ad for “romance with a vampire”. In patch 6, it can be described the way I did. In the patches before that and on release it is not. That perception that patch 6 brings and that fear of intimacy is a very poor perfomance.
Last edited by LiryFire; 19/08/24 06:24 PM.
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I think "I don't believe this is sincere" is in response to him saying he believes it's for the best for both of them. Astarion: There's no use in us fighting any longer, is there? You are a person of rare talent. You aided greatly in my conquest, even if you did not end up a part of it. And if we were beholden to one another? Well, how is that too different to being enslaved? It is for the best. Player: I don't believe this is sincere. I've always seen that quote as evidence that Astarion is trying to convince primarily himself that “it's for the best”. And Tav doesn't believe that Astarion actually believes that. Likewise, I take the rest of the dialog the same way. As a way to cope with the breakup and devalue the relationship itself. There's nothing but bitterness in his words.
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Again, if you want to discuss that, let's please move to a discussion thread.
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Completely agree with this. Tav is allowed to react to him with confusion, discontent or uncertainty in every other instance, including the romance scene itself. The new expressions would feel entirely out of place for my Tav and their story, and are just not compatible with some of the dialogue options. I'm happy for players who find them more fitting to have them, but I really don't think making them the new default for every character would be a change for the better. Especially after seeing the original expressions on my Tav's face for the last six months, the new ones would feel incredibly out of place and disjointed from the rest of the narrative to me.
An option to choose how our characters feel about the kisses would allow for every player to have a consistent story. I'm afraid that the technical difficulties that Mirmi wrote about above in this thread, related to the open/closed flag, will hardly allow the studio to focus on two lines for one Astarion, while they are currently working on bugs, trying to do everything so that patch 7 can fix all the problems in the game. To introduce new expressions, and even a separate line for them, is technically quite time consuming. And leaving a flag open for one companion (“deferred decision”), which can lead to bugs and problems for all Astarion romances in the game, seems to me to be a much more time-consuming and controversial solution than simply asking the modders to make a mod that changes facial expressions in kisses. It's easier and more convenient from a technical standpoint. But AA was objectively not the one who was scaring Tav, and for no reason, just for sadistic pleasure. It was in fanons and fanfics where people fantasized about scenes of Tav being sexually assaulted etc But it only appeared in the game in patch 6, and you know it very well, that's why you're so eager to keep it. Just because those kisses confirmed your fanons about physical violence doesn't mean it was in the game before. AA from before patch 6 didn't turn pleasure into punishment. But most importantly, there was no physical violence. It didn't exist and patch 6 changed that a lot. I don't doubt that in your fanons physical violence existed and kissing just realized your fanons, but it did NOT exist in the game then. AA empathized as deeply with Tav over the Haarlep deal as Spawn did. Even if Tav himself didn't fully realize the implications of the deal. That's not my opinion, that's objective reality. AA as a character was destroyed for me in patch 6. The character was remade under the influence of the collective fanon. Even the dialog lines related to the disgruntled and unhappy Tav had nothing about violence. On the contrary, AA wanted to supplant the desire for freedom with pleasures and a “better life”. There was no talk of a basement, torture, or a rat diet. But those kisses, frankly, only fit into such a plot. But it's still not in the game, and I don't know who you have to be to add that to the game now. The premise of the cycle of abuse and Cazador 2.0 in the game just isn't realized from the start. Even Tav who wants to break up with AA goes to the party and walks around freely among her friends. Can all this really be compared to what Astarion had to go through when he was the spawn of Cazador? I think it really depreciates and downplays his traumatic experience. At least in relation to Tav, he's not even close to being a Cazador. Though for some, what he calls a “pet” is enough to make them feel victimized on par with Astarion. Absolutely agree with every word you say. The abrupt and unjustified introduction of fanfiction themes that skew the character's history is a clear mistake, an inconsistent development in terms of storytelling plot. Thankfully, this has been decided to be rectified, and I can see that Astarion's romance is now in the hands of a good author. Larian presents players with excellent modding tools to realize any fantasies. I'd like to add that when I played with Astarion immersively, “through myself”, choosing only the lines I might want to say to him myself (well, or at least the least unacceptable ones, depending on the scene), then yes, I got a lot less content than I could have, but there was not a single hint of any violence in my game. Astarion didn't even raise his voice once. He didn't say a single bad word to me. Before my eyes, he was becoming calmer, more confident, compared to the somewhat prickly and tense behavior he had in the first act, and he finally squared his shoulders and opened up after the Ascension. This novel was completely consensual. Even more, Astarion gives more love than I can recall from other LIs in any other game. Trigger warnings for stuff in BG3 The premise of the “cycle of abuse” lies in the same fanfiction, and, in my opinion, is a fantasy (I'm not saying it's a bad fantasy, every fantasy is beautiful in its own way) of fans of the genre of uncoordinated romance. First you can feel Astarion's suffering, then imagine Tav who “made a mistake” because of it, and field that to feel Tav's suffering already. I also noticed beautiful arts with Cazador in the works of fans of this genre and fantasies to feel themselves in the place of Astarion. There is a mod that changes Astarion's voice to that of Cazador, I think it works well for roleplaying with Cazador 2.0. The idea of this “cycle” itself lends itself perfectly to these kinds of stories of suffering and violence. That's where, in my humble opinion, the fantasy of Cazador 2.0 was born. Of course, for those of us who aren't fans of the genre, the idea seems like something strange, and trying to pull it on the original game - even more so. We just have different perceptions and different understanding of the game. The romance author said they were including the fanfiction community in the game, perhaps the line, “You're like Cazador” was added for their enjoyment. If someone wants to get a feel for their character in this way, it might be enough to evoke fantasy. I believe that one could have avoided such outrage from players who are used to classic games, analyzing the existing plot, and logical and consistent game development if earlier the author had voiced in an official interview what kind of romance and for what audience they wanted to make in the game. I don't think everyone would have taken it happily, but at least there wouldn't have been the shock, the feeling that the game was insulting and punishing the player and the subsequent outrage. That said, I'm very glad that Larian changed their mind about doing this as a result. I respect all communities, but still, many fans of Ascended Astarion are not ready for that kind of dynamic in their game. Oh, and Astarion's story itself was clearly not originally written for that purpose. Better to write a separate character for such purposes, consistently, in a way that actually works. Hopefully, other developers will take this into consideration, and those who want to create in this genre will no longer suddenly change the path the character's story originally took.
Last edited by Marielle; 18/08/24 08:35 PM.
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
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I'm afraid that the technical difficulties that Mirmi wrote about above in this thread, related to the open/closed flag, will hardly allow the studio to focus on two lines for one Astarion, while they are currently working on bugs, trying to do everything so that patch 7 can fix all the problems in the game. To introduce new expressions, and even a separate line for them, is technically quite time consuming. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say adding a dialogue flag to keep something that already exists in the game would definitely be too difficult or time consuming, after six months of asking for three entirely new animations to be created and implemented for Tav.
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Well, Larian probably already regretted making such kisses for Astarion in patch 6, heh, so many problems now, some asking for one thing, others asking for another. It is impossible to please everyone. But still, happy faces suit a larger audience, simply because people want to see positive things with their characters. This is really a large part of people, you can't deny it. I'm not only talking about Astarion, but in general, players in general want happiness for their character and want to get happy impressions. In any game. Therefore, the corrected emotions on Tav's face in patch 7 are right, especially since they are quite neutral, like before patch 6, you can imagine whatever you want. But I understand that there may be some attachment to the faces of patch 6. Of course, leaving a choice would be nice, but it seems difficult to implement, you need to take a lot into account, and making a choice in a dialogue when you come up to kiss would be a strange decision...
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Come on, folks. I’ve repeatedly asked that we remember the forum rule:
“While we are aware that sometimes users might want to have these discussions on reference to the games, please try to keep conversations about heavier topics (abuse, sexual assault, etc) within spoilered text with an appropriate warning, so other users can choose if they want to engage.”
I’m not seeing enough care taken about this, and also seeing worrying signs of people attacking others’ preferences rather than respecting their right to express them, as well as making the positive case for their own.
I’d also remind everyone that it’s okay to agree to disagree, and it’s inevitable on this topic that there is never going to be consensus, and not everyone can have the last word. That’s fine, but I’d strongly recommend not just going round in circles until it gets frustrating and ends up in a row. Please consider taking the moral high ground and recognise when you’ve had your say on this topic and move on. Particularly if your post isn’t strictly relevant here.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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journeyman
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Well, Larian probably already regretted making such kisses for Astarion in patch 6, heh, so many problems now, some asking for one thing, others asking for another. It is impossible to please everyone. But still, happy faces suit a larger audience, simply because people want to see positive things with their characters. This is really a large part of people, you can't deny it. I'm not only talking about Astarion, but in general, players in general want happiness for their character and want to get happy impressions. In any game. Therefore, the corrected emotions on Tav's face in patch 7 are right, especially since they are quite neutral, like before patch 6, you can imagine whatever you want. But I understand that there may be some attachment to the faces of patch 6. Of course, leaving a choice would be nice, but it seems difficult to implement, you need to take a lot into account, and making a choice in a dialogue when you come up to kiss would be a strange decision... I completely agree with what you say. I couldn't have expressed all of this better.
Last edited by Mordred92; 18/08/24 08:14 PM.
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especially since they are quite neutral, like before patch 6, you can imagine whatever you want. But I understand that there may be some attachment to the faces of patch 6. Of course, leaving a choice would be nice, but it seems difficult to implement, you need to take a lot into account, and making a choice in a dialogue when you come up to kiss would be a strange decision... They don't look neutral to me and others requesting an option, though. Not at all. The suggestion was also not to give us different dialogue options to ask for kisses. It was for a dialogue flag to lead to the old kisses if Tav has already expressed fear or unhappiness in one or multiple dialogues before. But still, happy faces suit a larger audience Maybe that's true for a lot of players posting here, but whenever this topic is discussed elsewhere, from what I have seen, far more people thought the old expressions made more sense or would be in favor of at least making the change to the new ones optional.
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It's rated for mature audiences. If it had required a different rating or a warning because of the kisses, that would have come with Patch 6. (One of the kisses has also been in the game for even longer than that, in Karlach's Origin route, including the expressions.) BG 3 is rated M (mature 17+) by ESRB on Steam. Why not A (Adults only)? Maybe because Larian management themselves wanted to truly make a Valentine's Day gift for the D/s audience, but something went wrong and there was a mistake? Quality control didn't look into it, for example. That wouldn't make the kisses a relative thing. It would still be decided for players who don't ask for kisses a lot that their Tavs would be ecstatic at being kissed that way. Even if someone would only choose them once and then never ask for them again, that would still be part of their story. Is it really worth it for the sake of it for developers to take on all these problems with a game's program code? Romance in a game is generally designed for fans of the character, who love them and want to interact with them often. I certainly wouldn't get particularly worked up over a scene that I'll only see once. After all, I don't like how lustfully Halsin looks at me in the epilogue, but I still think it makes more sense to ignore it or skip dialog with him with a spacebar than to demand that his expressions be changed for the sake of a scene that I'll only see once. Goodness it really wasn't in the game, it was fanon, personal interpretations (like that he won't listen to Tav\Du like they like even though the intimate scene contradicts that), often ignoring that Spawn is as dangerous, as all of Astarion.
But that's the game.
So priority is given to the power couple, and all angst is limited to 3-4 lines, which lead to a breakup.
In Tav-Freedom line. Astarion pouts that he's not fun to be with and his love wants to destroy the eternal bond, he's trying to get back Tav's consent with gifts and all he's can now, that's all he does.
I criticized this angst line. It's almost impossible, Astarion is immoral all 3 acts, Tav cuddles him. Fanservice to make Astarion hiss and find out his tactics if Tav's eternal bond agreement changes abruptly. Written as a variant where Tav can leave Spawn Astarion, after all they've been through together.
To be clear, I don't mind others scenes where it can discuss, the night, the reaction of all the companions about Tav's vampirism. But putting fear into kissing as an opition, so that the character can enjoy Tav's suffering, well. Zero original idea - the balance of dark and fun, engaging, in the character. Forcing the player to watch the fear on their character's face as they kiss, that's completely inappropriate. Good thing Larian will fix that. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say adding a dialogue flag to keep something that already exists in the game would definitely be too difficult or time consuming, after six months of asking for three entirely new animations to be created and implemented for Tav. Mirmi has already explained in this thread why it would be technically difficult to make a way in which two different kissing options are possible for Astarion. To avoid repetition, you can go back a few pages and read that. Why other animations were needed for Tav (for those players who love Astarion, and don't just want to watch a scene they dislike once) - tons of text in different threads. I'm being completely sincere. 1000%.
Last edited by Marielle; 18/08/24 09:00 PM.
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
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Ahem … I’d also remind everyone that it’s okay to agree to disagree, and it’s inevitable on this topic that there is never going to be consensus, and not everyone can have the last word. That’s fine, but I’d strongly recommend not just going round in circles until it gets frustrating and ends up in a row. Please consider taking the moral high ground and recognise when you’ve had your say on this topic and move on. I’ve also asked that folk take discussion not on topic here elsewhere.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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but I still think it makes more sense to ignore it or skip dialog with him with a spacebar than to demand that his expressions be changed for the sake of a scene that I'll only see once. We're not demanding for the expressions to be changed, though. Asking for a way to keep the expressions we already have is the opposite of that. It's up to the studio to decide if they want to implement a way to choose. Why other animations were needed for Tav (for those players who love Astarion, and don't just want to watch a scene they dislike once) - tons of text in different threads. I'm being completely sincere. 1000%. That's not fair. I love Astarion, I don't think Patch 6 changed him, and I don't want my character's story to change now. I don't think it's necessary to imply people who liked the story as it was don't really love the character.
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journeyman
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Now I've seen the kisses, I'd just like to make a request that Larian consider allowing us to mod them on the PS5.
They are fairly neutral now, Tav doesn't look distressed or terrified but they don't look more than moderately happy when A. Astarion kisses them. I think 'tepid' is a good word for how I percieve their response.
I would personally prefer a little more passion, so being able to use the kisses from the other origin characters would be my preference.
I am grateful to Larian for the fix because for me, Patch 6 absolutely ruined the romance with A. Astarion. However, while I will romance him in future, I probably won't bother asking him to kiss Tav very often, if at all. I don't hate what they've done but I really can't say I'm enthusiatic about the change.
Please allow us to mod these on console if at all possible.
Just leap the flames to take a chance...
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That's not fair. I love Astarion, I don't think Patch 6 changed him, and I don't want my character's story to change now. I don't think it's necessary to imply people who liked the story as it was don't really love the character. I apologize, can I ask you a small question - how do you reconcile “love” for a character and the option where you only have to choose to kiss him once and never ask for them again? Respectfully, I in no way mean to say that you're playing it wrong in any way, I really have little familiarity with the genre you want to see in a game and I can't figure it out on my own. I understand that someone might enjoy the kissing 6 patch, but I can assume they will use that option quite often. And your option is a mystery to me, but I'd really like to understand, what it's like. Now I've seen the kisses, I'd just like to make a request that Larian consider allowing us to mod them on the PS5.
They are fairly neutral now, Tav doesn't look distressed or terrified but they don't look more than moderately happy when A. Astarion kisses them. I think 'tepid' is a good word for how I percieve their response.
I would personally prefer a little more passion, so being able to use the kisses from the other origin characters would be my preference.
I am grateful to Larian for the fix because for me, Patch 6 absolutely ruined the romance with A. Astarion. However, while I will romance him in future, I probably won't bother asking him to kiss Tav very often, if at all. I don't hate what they've done but I really can't say I'm enthusiatic about the change.
Please allow us to mod these on console if at all possible. I second that! I too see flaws in the new facial expressions - I especially don't like Tav's eyes during the bite and the blank stare afterward. I'd prefer more passion too (the kneeling smile is perfect, I'd like to have something similar in other moments as well). Also, I'd really like to be able to combine the game's original kisses with a mod that allows romantic kisses so that the kisses from the mod don't replace the main kisses, but work together with them. Dear Larian, please take care of the availability of the game modification on all platforms!
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
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I apologize, can I ask you a small question - how do you reconcile “love” for a character and the option where you only have to choose to kiss him once and never ask for them again? Respectfully, I in no way mean to say that you're playing it wrong in any way, I really have little familiarity with the genre you want to see in a game and I can't figure it out on my own. I understand that someone might enjoy the kissing 6 patch, but I can assume they will use that option quite often. And your option is a mystery to me, but I'd really like to understand, what it's like. There may have been another misunderstanding here. Someone else said people who liked the old expressions must not choose the option a lot, so it shouldn't matter much to them what Tav looks like. I replied that even if someone doesn't choose it a lot, it would still matter. That was all I meant. The story can still mean a lot to someone if they play it as a tragedy. Love for a character and narrative doesn't always have to mean seeing it as something solely positive or the best outcome. People can find comfort in fiction for all sorts of reasons, and someone having different reasons for feeling attachment to a character and story doesn't mean it's not honest, or that it should matter less.
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