Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Larian, please ensure you don’t take away player agency with AA in patch 7

Repeating from page 2 of this thread …


Some of the discussion above should definitely have been within spoiler tags at the very least, and even within tags I’d encourage some folk to be more careful how they discuss such potentially sensitive topics.

One of my favs^^

Thank you. <3

I totally love his laugh and his darkly gleeful "you're mine" if you try to break up too. So much passion in there. Kinda regret not choosing that option before patch 6 because Tav does that morose walk now so trolling roleplay is not as convincing anymore.

Yes, I was so tempted to choose this everytime (my favourite line to pick), his laughter I loved this reaction. Neil did such a fantastic job on it, I cannot not adore this. True, I get what you mean.. such a pity. Luckily I had the chance to see it several times before patch 6, I will miss it...
But in any case, with this discussion about our favourite lines now I am tempted to come back to this game, I am looking forward to Patch 7, can't wait to see the new stuff and the improvements

Agree, phenomenal voice acting! Why, oh why does he say "sit by my side" instead of "sit on my lap" like he does with Durge in that other scene? Would have made the epilogue even more fun.

The patch 5 kiss was a great scene, and it was cut. It probably wouldn't be hard to bring it back into the game to provide a roleplay for all players, including those who want a classic romance with Astarion. This scene - I think it has more value than just the programmed “Scared, sad and pained” emotion. Patch 6's kissing animations were done separately, and the facial expressions were set by program code, and all the previous animations remained in the game. This may be the reason why Tav is still gawking in the Bite kiss, and there's a moment in the same kiss where Tav has a blank stare. Larian probably wanted to change the kisses so that they didn't have to spend on animations again. So all of that work done in patch 6 that was worth the real effort has stayed in the game, you don't have to worry about that. I also have a lot of respect for the work that Larian did in EA, and a lot of really interesting and valuable scenes from EA that I would have loved to see in the main game never made it into the game, and that's a really big loss, but alas, it hardly makes sense to ask for those scenes back now. The “Scared, sad and pained” expressions on a character's face can be done by anyone capable of working with the game's code, and the modders would probably do it easily.


Yes, I think it's a clear omission for the possibility of roleplaying tragic stories.


Yes, this would be an interesting topic, I didn't had cause to mention it before, but in my opinion, there are quite a few dialogs in the game where you could give the option to choose multiple lines (this one is mostly just about dialog lines that give you the opportunity to question an NPC or companion in more detail).

Gortash (the chosen one of Bane - the god of tyranny) - also a good example of lawful evil. Will's father Duke Ravenguard (well, the son into his father) - looks like a canonical example of lawful good.


“Ask me, and it will be yours.”


In patch 6, Astarion looks like a man with a mental disorder, complete with sudden attacks (well, or not quite sudden, he's specifically triggered by being asked for a kiss) and subsequent amnesia. Astarion becomes himself again, and has absolutely no memory of what he was doing. Aside from the horrible feeling of the scenes themselves with Tav having that expression on her face, it also hurts that there's no way to try to cure him, and there are no psychiatrists on Faerûn, and Astarion meanwhile probably thought that Tav was not paying attention to him or kissing him at all (due to his amnesia). Such mental illness doesn't fundamentally change personality, yes, but the character certainly wasn't designed that way originally. And Tav clearly has some problems too, if they can't talk to Astarion about what's going on with him without kissing... in a calm atmosphere.


And I think it's a bit strange to call displays of love and tenderness “instructions”. In normal life people just kiss each other, without any instructions and additional lines, in the game it's impossible, Tav can't just walk up, hug or kiss Astarion, so you need some lines that activate it. It's not an “ instruction”, it's a game convention, part of the mechanics of the game. Tav does what he wants the entire game. I don't recall a single instance of Astarion obstructing or objecting to me.


Yeah, good point. Tav's choice in the finale is to take control of the Brain or destroy it. Astarion suggests taking control of the Brain. Which is very rash, because in that case Tav will control the Brain, and, purely theoretically, could even take control of Astarion himself, why doesn't he try to take control of the Brain himself? Because he trusts Tav? And when Tav ignores his offer to control the Brain, Astarion... Rejoices that he is now completely free, and there is no more tadpole. A tyrant who won't let him make decisions and ignores his lover's opinion, no other way. Of course, he would refuse Tav if Tav wanted to kiss him gently. No more sweet pointy ears, that time has passed.


Yes, in fact he even allows for cheating. I really wish Astarion would be more possessive and protective, like being the first to attack Haarlep while protecting Tav, instead of flapping his eyes the moment that incubus makes such a disgustingly obscene suggestion. But he's waiting for me to draw my own sword. And at the party himself, he tells me to go hang out with my friends, even though I'd like to stay close to him.


Tav really lacks humor. P.E.T. - is Perfect Every Time. How could Tav not have guessed?


I like that a lot. A real live character that reacts to the attitude towards him.


Oh, that would be worth adding for Tavs who don't want to break up... Hell, I can't even joke with words like that, it doesn't fit my character, and I'm missing out on an Astarion like that again. It would be great if Tav could harass Astarion asking how much he loves them, and Astarion would make that “scary” face and say: “You know I adore you terribly.” That would be terribly romantic. <3

Right folks, let’s try not to derail another thread.

Please use https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=947209#Post947209 or one of the other Astarion threads for more general chat, and keep this one for specifically discussing preferences for Astarion animations, etc that enable multiple readings of the romance.

I am genuinely so proud that the community has managed to keep this thread alive without getting it locked!

Anyway, I think you are getting off topic by focusing too much on Astarion. The bottom line is the kisses he offers are far from vanilla and we should have the option to react accordingly based on whether those kisses exceed what ours Tav’s would be comfortable with. I know mine would be flat out uncomfortable with them and would either respond with fear, anger, or annoyance he made them kiss him that way.

Turns out that's how it works? Well, when AA says he will “destroy your love” and “use all your trust,” Tav may say, “I don't believe you are serious,” meaning Tav senses a clear lie in his words. But I'm sure you are one of those people who believe these words of AA are pure truth.

I don't, actually, and I don't see why it was necessary to make that assumption. I think "I don't believe this is sincere" is in response to him saying he believes it's for the best for both of them.
But if you really want to discuss that, let's please move to another thread like the moderator suggested above.

Completely agree with this. Tav is allowed to react to him with confusion, discontent or uncertainty in every other instance, including the romance scene itself. The new expressions would feel entirely out of place for my Tav and their story, and are just not compatible with some of the dialogue options. I'm happy for players who find them more fitting to have them, but I really don't think making them the new default for every character would be a change for the better. Especially after seeing the original expressions on my Tav's face for the last six months, the new ones would feel incredibly out of place and disjointed from the rest of the narrative to me.
An option to choose how our characters feel about the kisses would allow for every player to have a consistent story.

And you think that phrase is reason enough for scared faces during a kiss? He reprimands Tav like a little kid, not meaning something like, “I will destroy you and your entire family if you bring it up again.”


But AA was objectively not the one who was scaring Tav, and for no reason, just for sadistic pleasure. It was in fanons and fanfics where people fantasized about scenes of Tav being sexually assaulted etc But it only appeared in the game in patch 6, and you know it very well, that's why you're so eager to keep it. Just because those kisses confirmed your fanons about physical violence doesn't mean it was in the game before. AA from before patch 6 didn't turn pleasure into punishment. But most importantly, there was no physical violence. It didn't exist and patch 6 changed that a lot. I don't doubt that in your fanons physical violence existed and kissing just realized your fanons, but it did NOT exist in the game then. AA empathized as deeply with Tav over the Haarlep deal as Spawn did. Even if Tav himself didn't fully realize the implications of the deal. That's not my opinion, that's objective reality. AA as a character was destroyed for me in patch 6. The character was remade under the influence of the collective fanon. Even the dialog lines related to the disgruntled and unhappy Tav had nothing about violence. On the contrary, AA wanted to supplant the desire for freedom with pleasures and a “better life”. There was no talk of a basement, torture, or a rat diet. But those kisses, frankly, only fit into such a plot. But it's still not in the game, and I don't know who you have to be to add that to the game now. The premise of the cycle of abuse and Cazador 2.0 in the game just isn't realized from the start. Even Tav who wants to break up with AA goes to the party and walks around freely among her friends. Can all this really be compared to what Astarion had to go through when he was the spawn of Cazador? I think it really depreciates and downplays his traumatic experience. At least in relation to Tav, he's not even close to being a Cazador. Though for some, what he calls a “pet” is enough to make them feel victimized on par with Astarion.

That is not an objective truth.
I'm not going to respond to the very hurtful assumptions in the rest of your reply. You told me "actually, you know, the topic of abuse is a pretty serious one" a few pages ago. Maybe consider how you speak to complete strangers about that indeed pretty serious topic.

Maybe then you'd think that such traumatic content shouldn't be left in the game at all? And what Larian is doing is righting a mistake. But I don't want to hang out with you either, nor do I want to hang out with the rest of you who insist that horror/ pain/ fear should be on par with consent and love. That's just my opinion.

Who said anything about hanging out? This is a feedback thread.
Multiple people here have said that they wouldn't consider making their Tav smile through what you call traumatizing content "righting a wrong".
The bottom line is, if the expressions that bother you were optional, you would not have to see them in your game. It's not necessary to censor them completely for the potentially upsetting content to be avoidable, and not at the cost of turning it into something that can be equally upsetting to other people.

I'll try and keep this brief because I have posted at length in the other threads on this section and to some extent I will be repeating myself.

First of all, I am pleased that Tav's facial expressions are being changed in Patch 7 and are apparently going to be more positive.
I would hope that the body-language might be changed too, because it was very disturbing seeing my character asking for a kiss and responding to it by apparently being frozen in terror. I have never been triggered by a game before and that was a particularly nasty shock, especially since it was promoted by the phrase 'Love is in the air' and all the extra kisses for the other Origin Characters were actually romantic and joyful.

I don't feel changing the expressions to make them more positive would be a loss of player agency because the kisses are something the player has to request not an action that Astarion initiates and I think that is a very important distinction.
Players do not have to ask Ascended Astarion for a kiss if they dislike him and Players who wish to RP their Tav as being trapped and unwilling in a relationship with him, can easily head-cannon a pleased/neutral expression as being forced.
In contrast, players who want a traditional dark romance, have no plausible explanation for their character being totally happy in the relationship and making positve responses in the dialogue but looking limp and terror-struck every time they request a kiss.

Personally, I think the Patch 6 kisses were a mistake because Tav's expression and body-language completely contradict the dialogue between A.Astarion and Tav, where Astarion seems possessive but loving and willing to acquiesce to their wishes.
However, those Patch 6 kisses are in the game now and people would be upset if they were removed. So, I think damage limitation by changing Tav's expressions to be more positive and hopefully changing their body-language too, is the best response.
Larian have stated they are moving onto new projects so I doubt they want to spend a lot of time fixing this, when there are other issues that can actually break the game.

I don't agree with leaving the original Patch 6 expressions in-game as an option because I feel they are too close to depicting assault and intimate partner violence for a game of this rating.

++++++ Totally agree with this.

Tav asks for the kisses, yes. They don't ask for anything else that happens in the kiss cinematics.


That's why I think letting us choose would be the best solution, because that way, nobody would have to headcanon around something that doesn't make sense for their character.

"He *made* them kiss"? How do you mean this? Actually Astarion does not *make* them kiss, they are *both* consenting and enjoying. Tav wants it the same way as Astarion. Or is there not enough consent visible in the scene between the two?
Literally, you are asking to turn a sensual and consensual D/s dynamic kiss into the opposite and into something unsafe, just because it is not "vanilla" enough.
Have you thought about, that this would be a disservice and disrespectful toward the BDSM and kink community? In your OP, you said, another, non-"bdsmy" kiss would be okay, so how about to ask for a consensual Vanilla Kiss as a toggle, and we could all play without heavy and sensitive scenes, when asking the romance partner for a kiss?



Well said, I agree with that.

While I may partly agree with giving the ability to choose the expressions a player prefers to see on their TAV, let's be honest.
Everyone has their own way of playing and interpreting the story, but in your narrative, how important are kisses? Since you imagine a victim TAV who hates being treated in a certain way by AA, I don't think you'll often click on the "Can I kiss you?" option. While you may find certain expressions more suitable for your TAV, I don't think you like seeing them all the time.
I also believe that the victim TAV narrative is a story that you play from time to time, but for the rest I think you prefer to play in other ways.
There are players who play AA all the time: whether the TAV is good or bad with that story or another, AA is often the partner. For these players, for their narrative, kisses are a fundamental thing. For you, kisses are a relative thing, they are not that important. Knowing that TAV has certain expressions reassures you in your ideas, but I repeat: how many times will you use and see your TAV kissing with AA? Maybe some have never seen them because, first of all, they can't stand AA.
So, in my opinion, this is also why the authors then decided to fix the expressions, because they realized that the main users of them are those who imagine a romantic relationship with AA.