Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Larian, please ensure you don’t take away player agency with AA in patch 7

Some folks are derailing the thread and arguing in circles, telling those of us who like the current kisses that we dont deserve them or are important enough for Larian to cater to. I find that extremely reductive, especially when I personally disagree with the positive interpretations of the narrative, but that’s neither here nor there.

Can anyone give me a single legitimate reason why players having the option to keep the current kisses through dialogue options would hurt your experience / enjoyment of the game?

The latest post in this thread goes 5 days back, can you give me a single reason why this thread had to be bumped in such a manner? I find your reference of 'some people who bad' a bit more reductive than anything coming before..

And, before I or any other can answer your question - can you clarify what 'legitimate' reasoning is? Is something like 'I dislike it' or 'it disturbes me' legitimate enough?

Hey, come on folks. Let’s try to keep it friendly.

Well, some players greatly dislike the new expressions and feel disturbed by those (and have explained why many times in this thread), but we're not asking for them to not be added at all because we personally don't like them.
If we had a choice, which is all we're asking for here, and everyone could have the expressions they prefer in their own game, nobody would have to see content that is upsetting to them or ruins the story they had. I really don't think it's necessary to ask for something that was important to people to be taken away from them because someone else doesn't want to see it. If it was optional, they wouldn't have to. They could have the version of the story they want and are comfortable with, and we could have ours.

Player: A beloved slave is still a slave.
Astarion: Oh don't be like that, I'd never want to control you.


Player: After everything you went through with Cazador, you're going to make me a spawn?
Astarion: Oh that was completely different, I'd never hurt you.

You need not fear anything.

I suppose they could have written in the devnotes that it was all a lie so the kisses would make sense. After all, in the case of the lie that he was going to make Tav a true vampire in the future, they didn't fail to emphasize the fact of the lie itself. Although I never realized why he didn't lie about going to transform Tav into an actual vampire? And actually turn Tav into a spawn. Tav would have found out too late anyway. It would have been so villainous, Cazador style. But AA isn't him.


Player: I hoped you'd learn to love me.
Astarion: Who's to say I don't? I'm willing to share all of this with you. What's that if not love? Of course if that's not enough - if you need something more - perhaps this isn't for you?

I think he's asking a great question, “perhaps this isn't for you?”. So Tav, who is disinclined to agree to terms, should really think twice. “So. What's it to be, darling? Is this it?” He himself offers to break up if Tav gets confrontational.

He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him. But perhaps you wish to degrade yourself. And he knows it.

The game hints rather obtrusively that you have a choice and you can disagree and walk away. And that you should stay only if you wish to stay.

We could be together for eternity, ruling this world side by side. We could have it all.

In fact, judging from the finale, he keeps all his promises to the player, his only stipulation being “together forever”. In his understanding, he offers truly generous gifts, such as eternity and power, and in the end even shares with Tav the talents given by Mephistopheles, such as protection from the sun. According to Velioth's rules, which Cazador also followed, sharing with someone is weakness. But AA does this as soon as it gains power. Which is a serious deviation from the principles of Cazadore.

Rewriting AA as a character would definitely hurt my experience / enjoyment of the game a lot. Can anyone give me a single legitimate reason why you ignore the choice between dominant and gentle kissing that has been offered as a fair alternative here? Totally in AA's character to be gentle if that's what Tav wants.


It really bothers me that you're asking to taken away a character I've known for 5 patches. And it's definitely important to me. What patch 6 did to the character cannot be partially fixed.

I'm not asking for anything to be taken away from you, I don't know how I can make that any more clear. I'm in favor of you having the happy expressions you want, even though I disagree with the story they tell and would never personally want them in my game.
You may think Patch 6 changed the character, but since many of us didn't think it changed him at all, that is clearly not an objective reality. You don't want your Tav to look apprehensive, confused or upset by anything AA does. Others may think it made perfect sense for their Tav to react the way they did in the original Patch 6 version. That doesn't mean either version should be taken away just because someone else disagrees with that version of the narrative. Otherwise there might as well only be one romance path with no dialogue options. Playing Tav as unhappy or afraid of AA but still staying in the relationship has always been possible, since long before the kisses were added. Giving every character the new happy expressions would not restore Patch 5, it would only take away a path that has been in the game since release.

By asking to leave expressions of fear in the game - you're asking to remove AA, who wasn't the one who scared Tav. Especially on purpose, in intimate moments, for your own pleasure. Before patch 6, you could only read about it in fanfics. I don't care if I don't see it in my game, that's not the point at all. The AA I knew wouldn't do that to Tav. The AA I knew would be gentle with Tav if Tav wanted him to be.



In what specific parts of the game before patch 6 did you see the animal fear on Tav's face when interacting with AA? When exactly had he ever wanted to scare Tav to such an extent? It was in people's fantasies, because people tend to conjure up all sorts of horrors in the AA route.


Why should I agree with something that came out as much as six months after the game came out and turned the character of AA upside down? AA had a tender kiss for half a year, I don't understand why you insist he wouldn't be a good fit for your Tav?


Until the epilogue, such a Tav does not exist in the game. In the epilogue, Tav may indeed be unhappy about not being able to leave him, but afraid? What does he do to make Tav afraid of him? “I give you wealth, power, pleasure - every decadence that can be afforded to a person? But you'd rather - what - sleep in the dirt again? You are my consort, and I will see you living the very best life. Even if you don't appreciate it. Why don't you go and mingle? Have fun with your so-called friends. I'll be here when you're done.”


Since the game's release there have only been happy facial expressions when kissing, AA has had no problem being affectionate if Tav wanted it, and there are no moments where Tav is panic-stricken of AA. Are you saying that before patch 6 this narrative didn't work in the game? I'm sorry, how did you play for half a year before that?

Ahem, again ...


It's clear that we're never going to all agree on this point, and that is okay.

I will also ask everyone to be careful not to imply that they are ascribing sexual motives for requesting features to people when that isn't what they have claimed. It should be obvious that people aren't going to take that well. Please allow people to express their preferences in their own way, and treat their statements in good faith, and you can expect the same courtesy in return.

That's not true. Tav could always be scared of AA. For example, they can be intimidated out of breaking up with him. Since you brought up the devnotes, the notes for his line in that scene even indicate he's supposed to sound threatening and abusive.


Have you seen Tav's heartbroken face at the epilogue party when they ask for freedom? And their expressions in the romance scene (which has always been there) are much closer to the Patch 6 expressions than they would be to the new ones.



Again, that it "turned the character upside down" is your opinion. The kisses and Tav's reactions to them were an intentional addition, and at least one of them has been in the game files for much longer than Patch 6 (you could see it in Karlach's origin route). It didn't change the narrative, it added to one that already existed, that being the story of a Tav who feels scared and trapped.



That's not true. Tav can express uncertainty before and during the romance scene, and there have always been options that very clearly indicated they were afraid of him (see my example with the breakup dialogue above).


Yes, because AA didn't yet have kisses that were exclusive to him. He kept the same kiss he had as spawn, which wouldn't have given Tav any reason to suddenly be afraid or unsettled if he just kissed them the same way he always had.

Thank you for your posts. This is so true.

As far as I remember when patch 6 first came out, I suggested 10 more hits in dialog. Or say 10 more insults that Astarion was swearing, getting angry and scaring Tav, make sad and angry.
Before patch 6, Tav was expressing negative emotions on something like this.
Likewise, I've never been against for discussing a line during a wisdom check at night. Which, of course, suggests a variety of options.
But not in the February 14 kisses that replace the happy ones. The game didn't involve a dead dove, fear of intimacy, not a single one.
Tav wanted it gently, Astarion did, they both enjoyed it - that's it.

Rough - Gentle for kissing, like turning night would be perfect for a romance where player and character would feel comfortable.

Kisses were created for a narrative line where the player agrees, their character agrees and enjoys - mixing fear and non-consent - especially in intimacy where it was about trust, vulnerability and enjoyment in the script. What a clumsiness.

What scene? Can we get a little more specific?


I'm not arguing that Tav may be unhappy about not being able to leave, but I still don't see how that should make AA a sadist who enjoys scaring her? What does that have to do with it? And why would a scared or unhappy Tav even ask to kiss herself? I completely understand that you're trying to link dialog about freedom with faces of fear, but even in those dialog lines AA isn't sadistic or anything, he may be angry and grumpy, but there's no hint there that he enjoys scaring Tav, hurting her, etc. Not wanting to let Tav go is not the same as wanting to torment Tav. How can you not understand that?


Tav's facial expressions in that scene are confused rather than scared. The most similar facial expression is Tav's during Karlach's kiss. But it was AA's least problematic kiss. In the bed scene when AA bites her, Tav by default has a face with an expression of ecstasy, you for one aren't confused by that? Why? Doesn't kissing hurt? https://ibb.co/W3j34Cm


Now Tav has the same exact face when her neck is grabbed during the kiss.


That kiss belonged to the spawn, not AA.


Tav can feel anything, but that still doesn't make AA a person who enjoys scaring Tav for no reason. AA has always had a different approach.


What exactly scares your Tav, the question is “What?” or “Why?”.


So what? He'd been kissing tenderly for six months, and Tav was happy doing it. To me, gentle AA is canon. He has a tender bed scene and had tender kisses for half a year before patch 6. No sixth patch will change that with its “exclusive” kisses won't change that.

Tav saying they want to break up in dialogue. It's the note on his response "No, I thought not. I don't want to hear anything like that from you again, my pet. You know I adore you terribly."


The notes for the breakup attempt at the end of the game specify "Genuine laugh - the player can't get away from him. Not even if they want to." I think that counts as enjoying scaring Tav.


Yes, which bothers us, because we don't think it should be decided for our characters that they would make a sex scene face at their throat being grabbed out of nowhere when they ask for a kiss. We have explained why it can be unsettling, uncomfortable or even triggering many times in this thread.


Yes, I know. My point is that it has been in the game and likely a planned addition for quite a while before the patch.


And I'm happy for you to have that in your game. I just don't want the same interpretation of the narrative to be forced into my story.

That's what I'm trying to convey, that AA didn't turn pleasure into punishment during intimate scenes, that's not his approach at all, and never has been. He also listened to Tav's desires. Why is this being ignored and devalued? It's unthinkable. If Tav wanted to leave him - it was much more typical for AA before patch 6 to cajole rather than intimidate. Even the epilogue speaks only of “wealth, power, pleasures.” If we talk about methods of encouragement and punishment, AA clearly used only the encouragement method. And all this in no way interferes with playing the role of a victim who has fallen into a trap. What's stopping you from playing the role of Tav being manipulated? People say these kisses confirm the cycle of violence, turns out it didn't exist before patch 6?

Because that story is more upsetting to some of us than the story that is upsetting to you. This is our point. We all have different triggers, this is ours. Both us and you should be allowed an option to avoid them.

The way you sometimes mention Karlach's kiss is a bit misleading.
It's true that that kiss has always been in the game but, until patch 6, it wasn't an AA kiss, but a spawn Astarion kiss (and it still is with Karlach). When it happens we are still in act II and it was a kiss created on purpose between Astarion and Karlach.
It was then included among AA's kisses because many players had considered that kiss suitable for the character for a long time. They considered it suitable for AA not because of Karlach's expressions or for who knows what other reason, but simply because in it Astarion appears dominant, self-confident.
However, no one had asked that the TAV keep the expressions that Karlach makes, expressions that were also appropriate at the moment the kiss between her and Astarion occurs... And that actually, given the situation, were funny.
Maybe it's true that the authors were inspired by Karlach's kiss for the others with AA also for the TAV's expressions, but not in a negative sense. Maybe they thought it was funny, given the reaction of some on Valentine's Day when the video of the kneeling kiss was published. But they probably didn't consider to much that in the case of AA, kisses are a repeated action, not a moment like with Karlach.

I meant it's been in the game files for a while, not in the AA romance route. I'm not sure if it still is a Karlach/Spawn Astarion kiss too now, but I think it's very possible the animation was always meant for AA (his new lines for the kisses have also been in the files since long before Patch 6) and was being tested in Karlach's Origin.


Can't it be both?

If it was a test animation it wouldn't have been inserted into the game at all, much less put with only one character and in such a specific moment. They would have kept it hidden, not playable like the AA lines (which were then inserted later).
As far as I know that kiss was created specifically for Astarion and Karlach as a first kiss.
It then became an AA kiss at the request of fans, I remember that even here on the forum there were messages in which some players talked about it.
I remember that people liked it for AA because he looks at the neck and for the confidence.

Absolutely right. Thank you very much for quoting from the game. Astarion's words to Tav explain his intentions and show his love for Tav.

Astarion doesn't want to control Tav. Astarion wants to bind Tav to him, so that they can be together forever. Astarion needs that guarantee of loyalty, of togetherness, a guarantee that Tav will never betray or abandon him. And he, in turn, gives Tav that same assurance. He does not use the possibility of control even if Tav decides to become an illithid (by the way, a good opportunity for all those who “want to be free”, illithid ceases to be a vampire and is no longer bound to Astarion). While Astarion himself is strongly against it, but he does nothing to stop Tav and prevent this tragedy, Tav make their own choices. And the person who can't (not because they don't have the capabilities to do so, but clearly for another reason) use master control even in such a critical situation would become controlling for what? For the sake of non-consensual kissing? In a fanfic, anything is possible. In a good game with consistent story writing, it's not.

But, the story doesn't seem to matter, the motives can't be named, and indeed, anyone can make up anything for themselves. If someone wants to fear and hate, they will do so, and will want to have visual evidence of it. I'm against the game having scenes

*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***

Because I'd hate for Larian to be faced with having to up-rate the BG3 game from an M (Mature 17+) rating to an AO (Adults Only 18+) rating because of this. The kissing scenes with that Tav's facial expressions in patch 6 match the AO rating with Content Descriptors:

*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***

There are no more scenes in the game that go beyond the M rating. To avoid being accused of spamming, I'll provide a link to my post in the thread where I touched on this topic. Warnings in the game - necessary or not?

But it might be worth elaborating a bit more on what the AO rating is, to clarify the point why a game like BG3 doesn't need it at all.



Most AO-rated games are adult video games, usually with pornographic or sexually explicit content, or games rated because of extreme levels of violence. Self-imposed restrictions imposed by publishers and distributors narrow the availability of AO-rated games, which is why journalists describe the rating as the “kiss of death” and essentially consider it a ban. All three major game console manufacturers (Nintendo , Microsoft , and Sony) prohibit the publication of AO-rated games on their platforms. Steam, the largest distributor of PC games, allows these games on its platform, but hides them by default. Most retailers refuse to sell games, and the popular video game streaming service Twitch prohibits streaming. In light of these regulatory concerns, most AO-rated games have been released for personal computers, and almost all erotic game publishers have abandoned the rating process altogether and sell their games in unregulated markets.

GTA5 received an AO rating after the ESRB review due to complaints from a number of players. For several years Rockstar Games sued (at the time of the trial the game was rated RP (Rating Pending) in order to regain the rating M. They succeeded as a result, but in the game there were no scenes:

*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***

The controversial scenes had, according to the ESRB's preliminary conclusion, too high level of violence. What's better for the studio - to simply fix the bug with patch 7 (which they've already actually done, the only thing left to do is wait for the patch to be released) and move on, finishing BG3 and moving on to work on the next game, or to overcome the technical difficulties associated with Open Flag (which will lead to new bugs and issues that will probably require new testing and feedback, patch 8, etc.) for the sake of then facing an ESRB review and the associated need for a rating change?

Larian are of course well aware of the rating system themselves, the 6 patch was a mistake and oversight that they will fix. I've seen the new evil endings, I know they can't be discussed, I'll just say I watched all those scenes several times with close attention. In my certainly unprofessional opinion, given all the information I've been able to gather on the subject of game ratings over time, in terms of showing violent scenes (evil endings are required to contain violent scenes), there is nothing in these endings that could in any way go beyond the M rating. And while there are scenes where showing violence would have been appropriate and probably appealed to the large number of players who choose evil endings, Larian was nonetheless able to create the right emotional feeling while staying within the rating limits by not showing intense and prolonged or overly naturalistic scenes of violence.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Karlach even has this kiss with Spawn Astarion in Act 2 anymore? It's likely it was given to her by mistake initially.


He says in dialogue that relationships are a form of control, and a devnote for the attempted turning scene with Karlach even directly says he's thinking about controlling her.