Originally Posted by Elly
Completely agree with this. Tav is allowed to react to him with confusion, discontent or uncertainty in every other instance, including the romance scene itself. The new expressions would feel entirely out of place for my Tav and their story, and are just not compatible with some of the dialogue options. I'm happy for players who find them more fitting to have them, but I really don't think making them the new default for every character would be a change for the better. Especially after seeing the original expressions on my Tav's face for the last six months, the new ones would feel incredibly out of place and disjointed from the rest of the narrative to me.
An option to choose how our characters feel about the kisses would allow for every player to have a consistent story.

I'm afraid that the technical difficulties that Mirmi wrote about above in this thread, related to the open/closed flag, will hardly allow the studio to focus on two lines for one Astarion, while they are currently working on bugs, trying to do everything so that patch 7 can fix all the problems in the game. To introduce new expressions, and even a separate line for them, is technically quite time consuming. And leaving a flag open for one companion (“deferred decision”), which can lead to bugs and problems for all Astarion romances in the game, seems to me to be a much more time-consuming and controversial solution than simply asking the modders to make a mod that changes facial expressions in kisses. It's easier and more convenient from a technical standpoint.

Originally Posted by AnnaMyrk
But AA was objectively not the one who was scaring Tav, and for no reason, just for sadistic pleasure. It was in fanons and fanfics where people fantasized about scenes of Tav being sexually assaulted etc But it only appeared in the game in patch 6, and you know it very well, that's why you're so eager to keep it. Just because those kisses confirmed your fanons about physical violence doesn't mean it was in the game before. AA from before patch 6 didn't turn pleasure into punishment. But most importantly, there was no physical violence. It didn't exist and patch 6 changed that a lot. I don't doubt that in your fanons physical violence existed and kissing just realized your fanons, but it did NOT exist in the game then. AA empathized as deeply with Tav over the Haarlep deal as Spawn did. Even if Tav himself didn't fully realize the implications of the deal. That's not my opinion, that's objective reality. AA as a character was destroyed for me in patch 6. The character was remade under the influence of the collective fanon. Even the dialog lines related to the disgruntled and unhappy Tav had nothing about violence. On the contrary, AA wanted to supplant the desire for freedom with pleasures and a “better life”. There was no talk of a basement, torture, or a rat diet. But those kisses, frankly, only fit into such a plot. But it's still not in the game, and I don't know who you have to be to add that to the game now. The premise of the cycle of abuse and Cazador 2.0 in the game just isn't realized from the start. Even Tav who wants to break up with AA goes to the party and walks around freely among her friends. Can all this really be compared to what Astarion had to go through when he was the spawn of Cazador? I think it really depreciates and downplays his traumatic experience. At least in relation to Tav, he's not even close to being a Cazador. Though for some, what he calls a “pet” is enough to make them feel victimized on par with Astarion.

Absolutely agree with every word you say. The abrupt and unjustified introduction of fanfiction themes that skew the character's history is a clear mistake, an inconsistent development in terms of storytelling plot. Thankfully, this has been decided to be rectified, and I can see that Astarion's romance is now in the hands of a good author. Larian presents players with excellent modding tools to realize any fantasies. I'd like to add that when I played with Astarion immersively, “through myself”, choosing only the lines I might want to say to him myself (well, or at least the least unacceptable ones, depending on the scene), then yes, I got a lot less content than I could have, but there was not a single hint of any violence in my game. Astarion didn't even raise his voice once. He didn't say a single bad word to me. Before my eyes, he was becoming calmer, more confident, compared to the somewhat prickly and tense behavior he had in the first act, and he finally squared his shoulders and opened up after the Ascension. This novel was completely consensual. Even more, Astarion gives more love than I can recall from other LIs in any other game.

Trigger warnings for stuff in BG3
The premise of the “cycle of abuse” lies in the same fanfiction, and, in my opinion, is a fantasy (I'm not saying it's a bad fantasy, every fantasy is beautiful in its own way) of fans of the genre of uncoordinated romance. First you can feel Astarion's suffering, then imagine Tav who “made a mistake” because of it, and field that to feel Tav's suffering already. I also noticed beautiful arts with Cazador in the works of fans of this genre and fantasies to feel themselves in the place of Astarion. There is a mod that changes Astarion's voice to that of Cazador, I think it works well for roleplaying with Cazador 2.0. The idea of this “cycle” itself lends itself perfectly to these kinds of stories of suffering and violence. That's where, in my humble opinion, the fantasy of Cazador 2.0 was born. Of course, for those of us who aren't fans of the genre, the idea seems like something strange, and trying to pull it on the original game - even more so. We just have different perceptions and different understanding of the game. The romance author said they were including the fanfiction community in the game, perhaps the line, “You're like Cazador” was added for their enjoyment. If someone wants to get a feel for their character in this way, it might be enough to evoke fantasy. I believe that one could have avoided such outrage from players who are used to classic games, analyzing the existing plot, and logical and consistent game development if earlier the author had voiced in an official interview what kind of romance and for what audience they wanted to make in the game. I don't think everyone would have taken it happily, but at least there wouldn't have been the shock, the feeling that the game was insulting and punishing the player and the subsequent outrage. That said, I'm very glad that Larian changed their mind about doing this as a result. I respect all communities, but still, many fans of Ascended Astarion are not ready for that kind of dynamic in their game. Oh, and Astarion's story itself was clearly not originally written for that purpose. Better to write a separate character for such purposes, consistently, in a way that actually works. Hopefully, other developers will take this into consideration, and those who want to create in this genre will no longer suddenly change the path the character's story originally took.

Last edited by Marielle; 18/08/24 08:35 PM.
One life, one love - until the world falls down.