I'm lucky enough to be part of the patch 7 closed beta. New evil ending animations have been announced as part of that, but I was hoping against hope that there may also have been some tweaks to endings for good characters who aren't willing to kill Orpheus without trying to reason with him or let someone else (eg Orpheus, Karlach, Gale) sacrifice themselves when they can prevent it.
We've had threads critiquing the way that the plotting plays out with Orpheus and The Emperor and while I agree there are holes I'm not trying to reopen that debate here. And I'm sure there aren't going to be any significant changes at this stage.
But I do think that some relatively minor changes could make the end of the game feel just a bit less unremittingly bleak for a good, selfless character who has tried their best to help people. I know virtue is supposed to be its own reward and all, and I don't need a happy ending, but would appreciate at least a tiny glimmer of light or hope!
For me, the smallest possible change that would at least make me feel a little less like weeping at the end of my favourite characters' stories would be simply changing the ending animation with WIthers when a character chooses to ...
... kill themselves rather than live as an illithid so that we see them with their original appearance (ie their spirit form is no longer a mindflayer). Withers' spiel about there still being a story for the character after death could be hopeful, but in context it just feels like more punishment as after committing suicide rather than continuing as a mindflayer it now seems as though the character needs to suffer an eternity as a ghost illithid.
The next step, for a bit more work but still hopefully not much, would be if Withers could enable such a character to attend the epilogue party in spirit form. And, separately, if Withers would temporarily break a self-imprisoned mindflayer out to attend the party. That way we could at least get the satisfaction of seeing what our sacrifice has achieved for those companions whose lives we've saved.
What about you folks? Do you agree the good ending is grim, and do you agree small tweaks like the above could help at least slightly, or do you have any other feasible (ie minor) tweaks that could improve it? Or have you managed to find happier endings for your good characters? And if so please tell me your secret!!!
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I voted for 1: The good ending is miserable and could be improved with small twaeks
For me that would be:
- having Omeluum there, if he lives - having the Emperor and Orpheus work together and have them come to blows afterwards. - For Karlach: have her ending solved (either joing her or have Wyll join her, if he stays the Blade), before you decide what you do with your potential love interest, for example going with Lae'zel fighting Vlaakith, so that she doesn't automatically die. - Spawn Astarion I think gets a betetr reaction already
Or let Gortash live and he is the one, that becomes a mindflayer, but I think, getting Jason Isaacs for more lines would be hard. SO I wouldn't call it a tweak.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
I agree that Karlach's resolution one way or another should be earlier in the dock scene, fylimar. Good call!
I created this thread after reloading the ending of my first playthrough to see if anything obvious had changed, and the ordering went:
- Lae'zel (whom I'd earlier failed to convince to abandon Vlaakith) tried to kill Orpheus and my character stabbed her to stop her. - My Tav killed herself rather than live as a mindflayer. - Then Karlach went up in flames.
I'll admit I almost appreciated the OTT Shakespearan-tragedy impact of it all, but it would have been good to have the potential to persuade Karlach to fight on. Or at least not to have my Tav's grand sacrifice upstaged by Karlach's so much cooler death scene coming straight after!
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I voted 4, I wouldn't call the endings where Karlach transforms miserable, for example. If you know you know, what Karlach says about her experience as a mind flayer. All positive. And we all know what the Emperor thinks... I also think that leaving someone as scheming and megalomaniac as Emperor to live and even be perceived as a hero - is a great way to wrap up this story, but not THE story. Having a calculating megalomaniac walk free is a fantastic source material for the next villain and a solid cliffhanger for the next chapter, even if its the one we'll never see.
I guess a noble sacrifice type of ending could use some love, but tbh I never had it so can't pass a reasonable judgement.
I agree that Karlach's resolution one way or another should be earlier in the dock scene, fylimar. Good call!
I created this thread after reloading the ending of my first playthrough to see if anything obvious had changed, and the ordering went:
- Lae'zel (whom I'd earlier failed to convince to abandon Vlaakith) tried to kill Orpheus and my character stabbed her to stop her. - My Tav killed herself rather than live as a mindflayer. - Then Karlach went up in flames.
I'll admit I almost appreciated the OTT Shakespearan-tragedy impact of it all, but it would have been good to have the potential to persuade Karlach to fight on. Or at least not to have my Tav's grand sacrifice upstaged by Karlach's so much cooler death scene coming straight after!
I mean, I agree that your ending sounds kind of shakespearean and I don't need always a happy end. But it is unfortunate,
that Lae'zel comes before Karlach and if you romance her, you have to persuade her to stay in order to save Karlach. It is very specific tbh. I mean, Astarion at least never dies. He will be there in the end, even if he runs away alone. No such luck for poor Karlach.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Yeah.... ending itself is not nearly the biggest problem I had during my playthrough (looking at Orpheus and EMperor that we shall not delve any deeper here). I am also not opposed to having to make a hard choice at the end, but it does feel hollow due to clunky nature of the characters we are not to discuss here.
In my playthrough Karlach took the tenticle fall, and while I don't think it worked amazingly due to clunky set up, it also seemed like a decent ending to her as a character. Larian made a decision to completely screw over one character that isn't a piece of shit, and that's a narrative choice. To me the grimness of the ending can't be change through subtle tweaks, but it is a logical end point of a rather grim outlook that BG3 has as a game.
I am not sure how I will feel an another playthrough when I will have to sacrifice someone else that Karlach, but I also think that other characters necessarily deserve a happy ending (maybe aside of Laez, who seems to be more a product of her enviroment with a capacity of change).
I voted for the second option. All companions should be able to survive unharmed, including Orpheus.
(It's cruel to turn into a MF after years of captivity. But otherwise, it's quite something to live as a cube for centuries and then have a body again at all). At least with the former, I don't know if Larian had the foresight to think of a proper sequel in which all the companions return and there's also a reunion with the freed Orpheus... Yes, I know that's off the table now with the sequel anyway, but it should still be taken into account. You should set the course far enough in advance that you still have the possibility for future recurring characters... Especially without having to come up with a completely crazy story as to why a dead or changed character should return completely unscathed (if it came to that)...
I voted 2nd even though it's not exactly what I think but the closest to how I feel about the ending.
I'm okay with the sadder tone or what transpires in it (Karlach dying, Astarion burning etc) but the way it's executed is so damn rushed there's barely any gravity given to breathe those moments in. It'd need not only a rewrite but a complete structural change and way the animatics are executed. I actually think Gale exploding himself feels better than him not doing so because there's just more time spent with the ending as a result of getting a proper scene of him grappling with it, lol (also improves the pacing as well since the final battle is a massive drag)
I do think that, had it been executed better, even without any changes in what happens in it people would feel it's less miserable as well because it'd be more satisfying to sit through. This ending is a wet fart and I just remember finishing the game the first time (patch 1) and thinking "Wait... huh? that's it?". I don't even think the epilogue fixes that. Overall I consider all tweaks that have been made to the ending very band-aid-y in nature when in order to work it'd need a complete rehaul.
I went with option four. As long as I don't play Lae'zel, I am pretty alright with sacrificing Orpheus even though he deserves better. It scared me a little how easily Lae'zel redirected her devotion from Vlaakith to Orpheus, as soon as she heard that he was the "true heir". So I was relieved to have a hopeful ending that left the githyanki without a god-prince deciding their future. In a story that is focused in finding strength in yourself and your friends instead of looking to otherworldly or divine powers for help, it seems a fitting conclusion.
My main issue with the dock scene is its pacing. It seems to me that they wanted Karlach's explosion to be the emotional heart of the scene and everyone else is just a point on a checklist to get there. Which seems unfair to both the other tragic events that can occur on the dock, as well as the other stories that do not get resolved until the very end. All of them would have deserved to be handled with some sincerity, instead all emotion and introspection is saved for Karlach's scene, when the feels are amped up to maximum melodrama. I found that simply never recruiting Karlach solves many of my issues with the ending - though I understand that isn't a solution for everyone. ^^;
As for my satisfying, non-miserable ending: I am pretty happy with how the dock scene plays out for Spawn-Astarion-Avatar. When playing as him, the scene during which he burns up is narrated more atmospherically, the companion comments are neither over-the-top nor uncaring (apart from Minthy who gleefully roasts you) and you get a little hopeful moment in the sewers - though I could have done without the bound up victim guy. I don't think it's a miserable ending at all and I am quite happy with it.
This is difficult to answer since I feel like some good ending options are very o.k., while a few among them may be unsatisfying.
A must add: while the game builds Orpheus up as a good guy, some people feel releasing him is as dangerous as a Netherbrain on the lose. I would like some closure from Larian on that worry -- is this a releasing thousands of spawn scenario, where it somehow ends up well-ish, or a hidden disaster? Does not need an in-game explanation, I would just like some sort of official answer. Put that debate to rest. I understand the loss of rights to many things might make this difficult.
I feel as though we don't get enough time to really develop a strong connection with Orpheus, so choosing to sacrifice him doesn't hit as hard as it maybe should. Though his story and importance to the Gith is actually very compelling, he is still the new character that we just freed who is now selflessly offering to make the sacrifice. The first time I played when nothing of the story was spoiled to me I was very conflicted whether this was going to mean the rebellion against Vlakith would be over before it even began. But now that I know that the outcome for Lae'zel and the Gith remains a hopeful one, I am not very conflicted about it.
I think that's also a big flaw with the ending, if the interviews where Swen said the choice has to feel like a sacrifice is anything to go by. It doesn't feel like much of a sacrifice, considering most players will get the chance to either trust the Emperor with it or have Orpheus deal with it. If the task obligatorily fell to you or any of your (willing?) party members it'd feel different, or if you had any reason to give a lot of gravity to Orpheus being transformed, such as playing as a rebel Gith Tav.
Tbh, I don't care much for either the Emperor or Orpheus. The first one is manipulating us and is only showing his true face, when we reject him. The second one has not really a chance to win us over. I free him for Lae'zel, but I'm not going to become a mindflayer for him. Tbh, at least Lae'zel should step in and volunteer, if Orpheus says, he changes - that would be another small thing to change, give us more volunteers depending on how companion stories do go. It would make sense for Lae'zel, trying to save Orpheus.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
I think the complete rewrite that it got before full release both made it "less miserable" and gave it the plotting problems we've had discussions about. If the direction we saw in Early Access was kept it probably would have been a lot harsher, but it also probably made a lot more sense. So thinking of it like that, I'd prefer they lean back into what it was originally supposed to be. So I guess I technically vote for complete rewrite but it's more like wanting to undo the complete rewrite.
That's super impractical though so there's a different minor tweak they could make.
The good ending does have a very narrow path to get through it without anyone going Illithid, but it involves Gale's bomb and the epilogue he gets for that comes off needlessly depressing. It's fine for the most part, but the message makes it sound like his soul is just gone. Mystra didn't take it to Elysium, Withers didn't intervene, just nothing. If he's the origin you see Withers intervene, with the implication that he's trying to get to Gale's soul before Mystra does. Withers even explicitly alludes to how heavily his sacrifice weighs on the party. So why doesn't he chime in during the epilogue for any other origin? Even Lae'zel when eaten by Vlaakith gets thrown a bone with Withers talking more specifically about why she can't say hi. It's a weird discrepancy.
Anyway the tweak here would be to just have Withers chime in while you and Tara are reminiscing with a "hey yeah, his soul's fine. I'll let Mystra take him to Elysium in a bit" or something.
I liked the ending I got, although I can see why you didn’t like your ending, Red Queen!
Lae'zel’s ending was my favorite!
She flew off on a dragon to save her people from Vlaakith. That was pretty great!
Gale was cured and became a professor, which I think suits him!
Wyll was off fighting demons and seemed happy.
All pretty good except for Orpheus, who got turned into a mindflayer and then killed. But with Lae'zel then taking the lead, it worked well with her story.
I really enjoyed my ending that I got on my first playthrough! True, I reached the ending already with patch 5, when the party was added to the ending, so the experience was great. The final scene at the docks just filled with a feeling of joy, elation, real victory. After the party there was a desire to go back to the game, which is very rare for me, usually, if I go through some particularly interesting games more than once, I always take a break for another game to forget a little bit of the story and avoid the feeling of repeating the same thing. But not in the case of BG3! Though I can see why, with certain choices or having a special affection for certain companions, a good ending can feel like a tragic ending to the player. In my case, all the companions were fine, only Karlach became an illithid. But I agree with neprostoman, she ends up being very positive about her experience as a mind flayer, even saying she wouldn't have chosen a different fate. Everyone else was happy and shared their stories with me at the party:
The Ascended Astarion at the docks cheerfully offered to celebrate the victory at the tavern, then a romantic epilogue, an adorable bat at the party, the Lord's lovely costume, all in all a sunny finale to “Aeterna Amantes”. <3
Shadowheart has chosen Selune, is traveling the world, received owlbear as a gift. Seems peaceful and happy to see everyone.
Lae'zel went with Prince Orpheus to liberate her people. She couldn't come to the party because she was busy (of course, she seemed to be the chief diplomat of the githyanki now, and was holding important negotiations), so we talked through the projection. She looked solid and competent.
Gale got rid of his problem, became a professor, came with Tara and talked about negligent students.
Will has chosen the path of blade of avernus, is hunting for Mizora, and is eager to talk about his exploits (only one of the three, though, and I have to restart to hear about all of them, which is weird, I mean, it's not like we're going anywhere in a hurry).
Halsin opened an orphanage for children, which he was happy to talk about, and donated a wooden duck.
Jaheira made me glad that she's leaving Baldur, probably to seek adventure (and that's great, there will be less annoying neighbors in town).
Minsc brought some poor halfling, whom he had been mocking before, and, as usual, was talking some nonsense in his own style. The halfling sort of slowly recovered from the stress, and started drinking and snacking at the common table.
Unfortunately, in the first playthrough I missed Minthara, because I played without spoilers until Act 3, at the first encounter I took her for a regular boss, and I didn't pay enough attention to the fact that camp clothes are not looted from regular bosses. But she made the next playthrough more interesting for me, because a new companion, whom I was not familiar with before, will diversify the game quite well.
I don't perceive my ending as miserable at any point, but if Larian improves something about it at the request of other players, why not? Maybe I too would take advantage of that improvement in another playthrough. The story itself requires someone to become an Illithid anyway (well, or an alliance with the Emperor who already is), this can hardly be changed in any way. The Gortash-illithid option is an interesting one, but it looks too time-consuming to implement when the Larian are already finalizing game development. Plus, the alliance with Gortash that would be required to do this removes the player's ability to save Will's father, and would still result in one of the companions being upset (if you view this method as the key to making everything perfect for all companions).
I voted for option 4 because I'm happy with everything, but I'll never be against any change for the better. Option 5 is so fun that it's impossible to resist from voting for something, just for the sake of looking at the stats and seeing how many players chose that option.
I was terrified that Gale would NOT be dead, that his sacrifice became cheapened, but Gale was still dead after kamikaze attack on Elder Brain (win-win), Lae-zel fucked off to genocide the other Gityanki (win-win), I got to chop off Orpheous' head.
The other Origins were kicking up daisies. I found the after party meh and needless.
So, I haven't played the ending that you were talking about in the first post. In my game
I reluctantly allowed The Emperor to absorb Orpheus, and had him deal with the Elder Brain. Lae'zel hated me for it, but by the after party she had her new mission to take down Vlaakith, and told my character how much she respected her.
There's no obligation to have a fully happy ending, and I'd expect to have to make compromises. I haven't seen an ending that felt "unremittingly bleak" so I don't know how much my opinion relates to what you've seen. Maybe one for a future playthrough.
Definitely what counts as miserable is subjective, and it’s really interesting to read other perspectives. I’ll admit that the Karlach option could feasibly be taken by a good character …
when it seems the alternative is her death. Though as she’s one to put a positive spin on things and wouldn’t want anyone to feel bad about her sacrifice I think I’d probably take her assurances she was okay with a pinch of salt. For me, whether to take her up on the offer with a good character would very much depend on how it’s presented, and I’ve not seen that as in the two playthroughs I’ve made it that far with she’s not been in the party at the relevant time.
I mentioned what happened in my first completed playthrough above. In my second …
- My character failed the saving throw to resist consuming the astral touched tadpole, so ended up a half-illithid against her will. - She also chose to become illithid rather than letting Orpheus do it, as she believed he had an important role to play for the githyanki. - She was a risk taker and endlessly curious so chose to live after defeating the netherbrain but didn’t trust herself around others enough to go with Karlach to Avernus, but at least she could persuade Karlach to go with Wyll, and Lae’zel also lived and flew off with Orpheus. - But she *hated* becoming a mindflayer so everything after unwillingly becoming half-illithid (ie act 3) felt overcast with a sense of melancholy, which only got worse after her full transformation. - And then at the epilogue party while chatting with Halsin, with whom she’d had a fling, she failed another saving throw and attacked him then got booted unceremoniously out of the celebration by Withers (it didn’t help that this version of the epilogue was really buggy).
The small tweak that would have helped me not feel quite as sad during act 3 and the ending for that playthrough would have been if my character could have appeared as her original self. It surely isn’t too much of a stretch to have an illithid power to project an image of how one wants to appear. My character approximated this by using the Disguise Self spell to appear as the halfling she started off as, but it’s not the same as having the appearance I’d carefully selected. And I know that’s shallow and cosmetic, but it would mean I wasn’t constantly reminded of the fate of my character, and I’m not ashamed to admit that a bit of denial would go a long way in helping me cope better with the ending
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
- My character failed the saving throw to resist consuming the astral touched tadpole, so ended up a half-illithid against her will. - She also chose to become illithid rather than letting Orpheus do it, as she believed he had an important role to play for the githyanki. - She was a risk taker and endlessly curious so chose to live after defeating the netherbrain but didn’t trust herself around others enough to go with Karlach to Avernus, but at least she could persuade Karlach to go with Wyll, and Lae’zel also lived and flew off with Orpheus. - But she *hated* becoming a mindflayer so everything after unwillingly becoming half-illithid (ie act 3) felt overcast with a sense of melancholy, which only got worse after her full transformation. - And then at the epilogue party while chatting with Halsin, with whom she’d had a fling, she failed another saving throw and attacked him then got booted unceremoniously out of the celebration by Withers (it didn’t help that this version of the epilogue was really buggy).
The small tweak that would have helped me not feel quite as sad during act 3 and the ending for that playthrough would have been if my character could have appeared as her original self. It surely isn’t too much of a stretch to have an illithid power to project an image of how one wants to appear. My character approximated this by using the Disguise Self spell to appear as the halfling she started off as, but it’s not the same as having the appearance I’d carefully selected. And I know that’s shallow and cosmetic, but it would mean I wasn’t constantly reminded of the fate of my character, and I’m not ashamed to admit that a bit of denial would go a long way in helping me cope better with the ending
My character never touched the tadpoles so I didn't even have a save to make with the astral one - it was just "OK, uh, sure, I'll definitely consider it. Very carefully." But I LOVE the idea of using Disguise Self every day to hide it Maybe if they had an option to use Disguise Self for any character to look like their original appearence? Given that it lasts all day, you could call that an illithid power if you like; there's definitely another illithid in the game who can project a humanoid appearence.
I'm a little puzzled that they even programmed in the option for you to be kicked out of the party though
Red Queen: Wow you had epic bad luck with your endings.
About Orpheus
I normally don't feel responsible for him. I fought a devil to get the hammer and fought countless of githyanki send by Vlaakith, the rest is between him and Lae'zel tbh. Either he has to change or she has to volunteer, my characters have done enough by that time. And I do play good, but my main motivation is often 'I want to go home and see my friends and family again' - so that is a main drive.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
I'm honestly not sure which option to pick. I despise the fact that we NEED to select someone to bite the bullet when there is Omeluum, and also that we can't convince Orpheus and the Emperor to agree to temporarily work together because the situation is too dire for petty squabbles. This whole thing in my opinion needs a total rewrite. I also dislike the fact that I need to carry Karlach in my party to be the sacrifice and can't finish the game with someone I like because of it. If we really need to keep the MF railoading in the game, I would have liked if the Astral Prism choice was done is such a way that we contacted our whole party and decided together who gets the short end of the stick. I think more people should volunteer too - for example Wyll who likes to play hero and Lae'zel could be persuaded to save her Prince. I would also like to be able to control other companions in the epilogue or just see them fighting somewhere, because it's ridiculous that the city is on fire but they are chilling at camp and you only see them at the dock once the danger has been eliminated. Thanks for nothing, lazy gits!
When it comes to the actual ending beyond that awful point in the story, I didn't see the need to change anything, only add options, for example: being able to keep Scratch, having Us stay with Tav, being able to take your LI with you and accompany Lae'zel to the Astral as a friend, as well as follow Karlach into the portal. I also want to see Astarion after battle epilogue choices be meaningful, because no matter what you decide to do, you stay in the city with AA and travel with UA if you don't go to the Underdark to be a spawn babysitter.
Overall, everyone was happy in my ending, no downer there. I was very pleased with the result.
Dragon Age Origins and real life taught me that self-sacrifice is for suckers so I'm never going for that option in a game again. What Larian did with the endings shows just that - self-sacrifice means you feel good about yourself for a moment, are branded as a saviour until people eventually forget about you and may possibly backstab you, and you have to live with bitter consequences of your decision while everyone else enjoys their life at your expense.
Originally Posted by The Red Queen
For me, the smallest possible change that would at least make me feel a little less like weeping at the end of my favourite characters' stories would be simply changing the ending animation with WIthers when a character chooses to ...
... kill themselves rather than live as an illithid so that we see them with their original appearance (ie their spirit form is no longer a mindflayer). Withers' spiel about there still being a story for the character after death could be hopeful, but in context it just feels like more punishment as after committing suicide rather than continuing as a mindflayer it now seems as though the character needs to suffer an eternity as a ghost illithid.
The next step, for a bit more work but still hopefully not much, would be if Withers could enable such a character to attend the epilogue party in spirit form. And, separately, if Withers would temporarily break a self-imprisoned mindflayer out to attend the party. That way we could at least get the satisfaction of seeing what our sacrifice has achieved for those companions whose lives we've saved.
I agree that
ghost illithid doesn't make sense. At that point the soul is salvaged and the monstrous body is left behind.
The spirit form attendance is already possible in this ending:
I don't see why they didn't make it available after the regular suicide too. I guess this path is just underdeveloped like Astarion LI epilogues. I disagree with letting self-imprisoned Tav show up - they're dangerous and starved. The fact that there's a saving throw check at the party is proof of that. This is yet another good example of realistic consequences of wanting to be a selfless goody-goody character.
For me, it's kinda all of the above when it comes to the poll.
I'm a little puzzled that they even programmed in the option for you to be kicked out of the party though
If that series of events hadn't been quite so buggy when I played it, it probably would have been funny enough for me not to mind such an ignominious end to my poor character's journey
Originally Posted by Ametris
I disagree with letting self-imprisoned Tav show up - they're dangerous and starved. The fact that there's a saving throw check at the party is proof of that.
I agree it would be dangerous, but for me that's not a reason not to offer the player the temptation. And if it did go horribly wrong, I think it would be extra pathetic, with the character cursing themselves for their weakness when they initially knew better.
Originally Posted by Ametris
IThe spirit form attendance is already possible
Thanks for the link! It was seeing mention of a bug with attending the party in spirit form in the patch 7 notes that had led me to retry my ending. It's good to know where that option fits in, but yes disappointing that it doesn't apply to a character who chooses not to live as a mindflayer.
Originally Posted by Ametris
I despise the fact that ... we can't convince Orpheus and the Emperor to agree to temporarily work together because the situation is too dire for petty squabbles.
You make good points about the niggles with the way that whole scene plays out. But carrying on the theme of small changes that would make the ending less frustrating for me, I just wish that the Emperor could be persuaded to at least talk to Orpheus, even if Orpheus then subsequently refused to work with the Emperor (who has, after all, been stealing his power) and we had to pick between them anyway. In that scenario, it would feel more tempting to side with the Emperor, whereas currently it feels so wrong that he won't even try talking to Orpheus that I'll struggle to pick that option with most characters.
Originally Posted by fylimar
About Orpheus I normally don't feel responsible for him.
I freely admit I'm a sucker, but his more-honourable-than-thou emotional blackmail totally works on me, and it felt as though he could do so much more good than my characters had potential for. (Especially in my first playthrough where Lae'zel hadn't turned against Vlaakith.) But I do accept that not all good characters need to be so selfless that they'd usurp others' right to self-sacrifice. It just felt wrong in the moment for either of my two characters to let Orpheus do the honours.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
About Orpheus: I kind of like him, but my character did go through so much and had to fight several gods and pissed off some more, made friends along the road, maybe a new love - it's hard to go all in to sacrifice myself for a race, that is mostly known for being standoffish and racist. Of course it would be nice, if they get rid of Queen Karen ... eh... Vlaakith..., but for me it is similar to the end of Dragon Age 2, where
Sebastian demands of Hawke to kill Anders and while I don't love, what Anders did, I don't see it as my responsibility, when the guard captian and the knight commander, the two, who have the autority to deal with Anders, are standing right there. In this case, Lae'zel is Aveline and Meredith and I think, it would be her respnsibilty.
I still think, Omeluum should be an option, if he is alive.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Terrible luck aside, It seems to mostly be a question of what a "good ending" means to you personally:
If it means that nobody has to transform into a mind flayer, you either let the emperor do his thing or use Gale-bomb.
If it means that all your companion's resolve their character arcs, Gale-bomb isn't an option because blowing him up is just as much a confirmation of his low self esteem as claiming godhood is. But you can still bite the bullet yourself, or let the emperor or Orpheus do their thing.
If you are looking for the overall morally good path - I don't even know. It again seems to depend on personal priorities.
In the end, at least after your first run, it seems to most often become a calculated game of throwing your least favourite character under the bus - which involves a healthy dose of meta gaming if you want to sacrifice Karlach. (She won't be naturally on your team if you don't like her.)
Thinking about sacrifices, the hardest moment for me was during the run in which Gale tried to convince me that allowing him to explode was the best option right before we started climbing the brain stem. Making the choice in the Astral Prism is unpleasant but it is also a fairly quick pain, by contrast if Gale tries to guilt-trip you into allowing him to sacrifice himself, it is a lengthy conversation (three layers if you don't give in) during which you have to defend your decision to preserve the life of one person while endangering the whole world in the process. I hate this conversation and think it is brilliant because it makes the decision to not make a sacrifice suddenly very hard.
The problem is more that there is never a good reason for the sacrifices. "There must be a mind flayer" with neither a obvious in game reason or a explanation outside of "because we said so" is just bad storytelling and leads to the choice being completely unsatisfactory.
And for Karlachs fate to be satisfying there are too many leads for there to be a better outcome which was then cut.
So imo not the ending itself needs to be changed, although it might still be required if no satisfying solution can be found, but everything leading up to the ending.
Terrible luck aside, It seems to mostly be a question of what a "good ending" means to you personally
I was meaning "good" in the DnD alignment sense, but beyond that I'll admit I didn't ponder it very carefully, and was interested in others' takes on what that might be. But I suppose what I was really thinking of was an ending where the player character reluctantly turns into a mindflayer because they're not willing to sacrifice anyone else. I do accept that other endings can be thought of as "good", but for me that's the one I suspect most of my favourite good-aligned characters are going to end up experiencing and, while it's always going to be a tragedy, where I'd appreciate some *slight* mitigation of the grimness.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Terrible luck aside, It seems to mostly be a question of what a "good ending" means to you personally
I was meaning "good" in the DnD alignment sense, but beyond that I'll admit I didn't ponder it very carefully, and was interested in others' takes on what that might be. But I suppose what I was really thinking of was an ending where the player character reluctantly turns into a mindflayer because they're not willing to sacrifice anyone else. I do accept that other endings can be thought of as "good", but for me that's the one I suspect most of my favourite good-aligned characters are going to end up experiencing and, while it's always going to be a tragedy, where I'd appreciate some *slight* mitigation of the grimness.
I'm sure I read a while ago that part of the point of the (good) story in BG3 is "are you prepared to sacrifice (things) to save the world?" As I said before, I had the Emperor sort it out so I haven't experienced the same choice as you, but I don't think being good aligned necessarily means sacrificing yourself for the greater good. To me, being good-aligned means generally having good intentions, but maybe turning into a mindflayer is just too far for your character. In my case, my character reluctantly sacrificed Orpheus. Probably not the most good thing to do, but It's what my character would do! (as all bad D&D players say ;-) )
I'm sure I read a while ago that part of the point of the (good) story in BG3 is "are you prepared to sacrifice (things) to save the world?" As I said before, I had the Emperor sort it out so I haven't experienced the same choice as you, but I don't think being good aligned necessarily means sacrificing yourself for the greater good. To me, being good-aligned means generally having good intentions, but maybe turning into a mindflayer is just too far for your character. In my case, my character reluctantly sacrificed Orpheus. Probably not the most good thing to do, but It's what my character would do! (as all bad D&D players say ;-) )
Fair enough! My problem is that sacrificing themselves for the greater good and turning into a mindflayer is, given the choices in front of them, what my two good characters so far would had done (admittedly Karlach didn’t volunteer in either of the playthroughs so whether they’d allow her to sacrifice herself wasn’t tested - I think probably the first would have).
And while I love an HEA as much as the next softie, I have no fundamental problem with a tragic ending for my character or (despite my quibbles on the specific logic of the plotting) a setup where hard choices have to be made, and where goodness isn’t easy. But despite listening to and appreciating the other points of view in this thread, I do persist in my wish that small tweaks would be made to make the self-sacrificing choice just a little bit less of the downer it inevitably is going to be!
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
RQ, I feel you, my first campaign was one of the best and worst storytelling experiences of all time. Every choice felt like choosing between the bad and the worse, I swear my character's facial expression even changed to a constant sad face and during harbour scene I laughed out loud when I saw a dialogue option about 'leaving this wretched city and going on a holiday to Amn'. I also had to kill Laezel since I trusted the Emperor to be the only one who can...
Endings aside, cool thing about the Emperor is this: if you choose to be somewhat trusting or neutral to him from the get go - it is EXTREMELY hard to read his predatory nature between the lines. I genuinely wasn't sure about the guy during my first PT, the Balduran lore dump made by doubts grow like wild weeds... this, is masterful storytelling, when sometimes you are so conflicted you need to take a day break from playing the game just to contemplate the choice you're about to make
I want to drop my two cents here. I see some assumptions that Orpheus is one of the good guys. Remember that his mother Gith wanted to conquer the realms herself. Doesn’t matter her motivation. Because of the split with the followers of Zethimon and the fact Vlakath stopped her this wasn’t attempted.
As such, I do *assume* that Orpheus has similar motivations to follow his mother’s footsteps. After they defeat Vlakath, they will likely turn on their Githzerai allies. And then begins their true war.
Siding with the emperor and letting him eat Orpheus may give him the knowledge to someday begin his own grand design (obviously if you allow him to become the absolute).
The only “good” endings I see with meta knowledge is Gale nuking himself, without anyone gaining Orpheus knowledge (letting Orpheus live is still a safer bet as war among equals is much better than a unified mindflayer race). Even you or Karlach being mindflayers with that knowledge is dangerously edging the grand design.
The D&D universe still has an ace up the sleeve if the grand design were to begin. That ace is the God born Dead, Atropus. He has a thing for killing mindflayers it seems.
Fair point that we don't know how the whole Orpheus thing will turn out. From a good-aligned perspective, my biggest problem is that we have to side with the Emperor without even talking to Orpheus and giving him a chance to help out. If we were able to let him out and he then refused to cooperate with the Emperor (or they refused to cooperate with each other) then to my mind there would be more of a choice to be made there.
From the in-game info such as what we find in the creche and what Orpheus says when freed, I do think the impression he gives is positive enough that a good-aligned character would, for me, need to be imagined to either be suspicious-minded or to have knowledge of the githyanki that's not presented in the game (both totally valid RP options!) to find it easy to side with the Emperor over Orpheus. But if the Emperor were less unreasonable about flouncing off in a huff just because we insist on talking to Orpheus, then depending on the relationship that had developed over the course of the adventure could well be enough to swing things in his favour if the two refused to work together when they both had a chance.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I must admit that I'm quite torn between "miserable, but liking it" and "miserable, but can be fixed with a few tweaks". For my Tav (Orphic Githyanki necromancer), the ending she got surely felt horrible.
Sava had hoped that either the saved Gondians or Dammon with the enriched infernal iron could fix Karlach's heart. Both Sava and I thought Wyll completely lost it when he announced his rebranding, and I still feel the Wyll we meet at Reunion Camp rather spent a few weeks lost in the forest with his "pet wolf" Scratch trying to save his new 1st-level ranger self from a bunch of goblins and an ogre, than in actual Avernus. So, basically Sava was forced to see her ra'stil and friend turn ghaik. From her vantage point, Lae'zel had an egg to hatch and a revolution to fight along with Orpheus, and she sure wouldn't turn herself. Karlach said she was happy, so that was the ending of my playthrough. For Sava, it was a tainted success, for a path of recruiting a saved Omeluum, killing the treacherous Emperor on the spot and saving Lae'zel, Karlach and Orpheus seemed in reach. I guess I'm wondering if this didn't work due to lack of story development, or if it just wasn't in the cards.
From what I understand, there were a number of story elements that had to be abandoned when Russia invaded Ukraine. The entire St Petersburg studio had to be shuttered and the employees evacuated to the other studios. Doing so we lost the return to Avernus, etc. There does appear (when speaking to the gnomes and steel watchers) there was a quest line about/for karlach’s heart, that didn’t get implemented.
The staff was evacuated because Sven saw the writing on the wall and didn’t want his employees drafted in the war.
RQ, I do agree with you somewhat; however, Orpheus likely can read the Emperors motives like when he read you mind. Doing so he would have known all the false hoods the Emperor was saying and likely would have immediately attacked all of you. By betraying the Emperor first, he atleast he knew you could be either used until no longer needed (like the Emperor maybe doing), or at minimum an enemy of my enemy is “currently” my friend type scenarios.
I want to drop my two cents here. I see some assumptions that Orpheus is one of the good guys. Remember that his mother Gith wanted to conquer the realms herself. Doesn’t matter her motivation. Because of the split with the followers of Zethimon and the fact Vlakath stopped her this wasn’t attempted.
As such, I do *assume* that Orpheus has similar motivations to follow his mother’s footsteps. After they defeat Vlakath, they will likely turn on their Githzerai allies. And then begins their true war.
Oh yeah for sure, Orpheus is also very clearly not good. That's why even knowing how to not have a mindflayer I still end up having Orpheus do it. Let Lae'zel after all she's learned with the party lead the Githyanki and perhaps the whole lot of them learn a little more tolerance from her example.
The good ending is miserable and that's the way I like it
Yet, I don't like how they're railroaded to be that way sometimes. It's come up often enough, but there are plenty of things given to us in the game that people find absent from the choices we're given, without even a Fawkes level of lampshading.
I haven't played the game for a few months and only came back to see if the ending had been changed. Thanks @TheRedQueen for advocating for changes during the beta!
I chose "The good ending is miserable and nothing short of a complete rewrite could make it any better" because that is what I would need to play the game again. There are small tweaks that could be made to make *less* of a downer but the end game is deeply flawed.
@Sozz just introduced to the concept of lampshading and I'm going to start using that word all the time. The "someone needs to become a mind flayer" is a lampshade event. lol wut? We have just freed the Gith messiah and we have the chosen of one of the most powerful gods in Faerun on our side I think we will be okay.
So you can kinda feel okay if Orpheus decides to become ghaik once he says no Gale's offer. But that is still a downer because the rebel Gith lose their most powerful weapon against Vlaakith as well as their most powerful weapon against the mindflayers. From a practical - not moral - stance that's bad news for the multiverse because the Gith prevent the mindflayer empire from reforming. Metaknowledge tells us that the rebel Gith actually do pretty well against Vlaakith without Orpheus but Tav doesn't know that at the time. And from a moral POV sitting there saying "go ahead, destroy your soul and the hopes of your people if you want" doesn't feel right either.
Hope people don't mind if I bring this in from this thread - I'm trying respect RQ's desire to keep the conversation in this thread.
Good thread! Your summary captures my feelings well.
Oh well. I'll pass on this patch and let Tav's noble suicide stand as the depressing end to the journey.
Wow! If this is the best "good" ending we can have, then I'm now not sure I'd even want to play the game at all. This is to me an utterly horrible way for my game to end, not just a downer ending.
It isn’t.
Gale's ending could be better if it were rewritten to be consistent with FR lore. It would be the good aligned choice if we saw Gale get a Gawain and the Green Knight like moment where he sacrifices himself and we all get a scene where Mystra tells Gale he has redeemed himself that would nice. And Mystra would be acting like the Mystra of the forgotten realms novels, not like one of the gods from DOS2
But that's not ideal if you aren't playing Origin Gale because it takes attention away from Tav. Tav is no longer the main character, she is part of Gale's party.
Some are happy with squiding out and assuming that they will be good mind flayer. But we have sooo, so, so much in evidence in the game that tells us that is a bad assumption (all of which is backed up by FR lore)
So sacrificing your soul and committing suicide before you complete Ethel's prophecy of becoming a mind flayer that slaughters all their friends is the good ending. (good aligned, not just good for me). You avoid all the deadly sins, notably the sin of pride - Orpheus has more to offer the multiverse than does Tav. Letting him take the hit is, at best, a neutrally aligned option.
Painting the bomb ending as a good, desirable ending, especially if it was focused on redemption and forgiveness, would be such a horrible twisting of Gale's story. Maybe in the context of legends it makes sense, but in a story that deals more with real human emotions than with abstract symbolism, and especially in a story that deals with self-worth issues, I think it would have been absolutely horrible.
We've had this discussion before I thoroughly enjoyed it. But I think Mystra should have / would have returned Gale-Bomb Gale to life just as the Green Knight declined to take Gawain's neck.
At this moment Gale redeems himself, he self actualizes, he conquers his shadow. He has defeated his fundamental flaw - his Hubris. He acknowledges that his hubris brought him to this place - not the evil doings of his crazy ex. And he is prepared to make amends, he put the world in danger and his sacrifice can fix it. He can save Faerun and all of magic with a snap of his fingers. And does just that. All hail Gale, hero of Baldur's Gate
Yes we had and I was very glad to see your name pop up again too. =)
Making Gale a hero, is kind of devaluating his whole story. Gale's belief that he needs to do that one big thing to change the world for the better, is what drives him to either offer himself up as a heroic sacrifice or to go for the Crown. But this belief is ultimately fuelled by his critically low self-esteem, which is his worst flaw, his opinion that he as a person cannot to anything to change for the better and he needs some kind of power to be worthy (even if it's just the explosive power of the orb.) So both his God and his Bomb endings cannot be good ones. In his human endings he deliberately steps out of the limelight and takes a stance that he is still brilliant, but does not need the public acclaim. He is just doing his thing to help, enjoying it and that's enough, be it as a teacher, or an adventurer, raiding through the hells, or building a community for a bunch of vampires. I think that is ultimately an awesome message.
Coming back to the original idea of the thread, I think what is most "problematic" about the current good ending, is that it contradicts the general moral of the narrative. In all the endings "ascension" isn't a good thing, instead trusting in your friends and drawing from the power of your group is generally framed as desirable. Lae'zel has a bunch of dialogue about it. So that it is weird when in the end, some form of ascension is necessary after all, and some big sacrifice outweighs the power of the group.
I do like Orpheus to take the fall for several reasons but one high up on the list is that he too does not believe himself to be so special. When Lae'zel is desperate that without him there can't be a revolution, he tells her that she and the other githyanki can do just as well without him. This brings the idea of finding strength in yourself and your friends back into the story again.
Gale's ending could be better if it were rewritten to be consistent with FR lore. It would be the good aligned choice if we saw Gale get a Gawain and the Green Knight like moment where he sacrifices himself and we all get a scene where Mystra tells Gale he has redeemed himself that would nice. And Mystra would be acting like the Mystra of the forgotten realms novels, not like one of the gods from DOS2
Warning - discussion of depression, etc.
For that to be satisfying, they would also have to rewrite Gale a bit, so that his story doesn't seem like that of someone struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. He socially isolates himself after he gets the orb. There's explicit possible dialogue at the circus where we find out he thinks that he, and the world, might be better off if he were dead.
If the player picks the dialogue that pushes him away from suicide in his stargazing scene, his dialogue the next day sounds like someone who was contemplating suicide (for non-wold saving reasons). The non-romantic version is:
"I wanted to... to thank you. I was sinking into a dark place, but you reminded me there is still light in the world, if I should care to look for it. You... you may well have prevented me from doing something very rash in the near future. I count myself lucky to call you a friend."
Even if he isn't literally depressed in universe (I personally think he is), his story invokes the idea and feelings of depression and suicidality. In light of that, I think having the main "good" ending being a depressed man deciding that suicide was the answer would be icky.
@KillerRabbit, you seem more familiar with Forgotten Realms lore than I am. Do most of the people on the Sword Coast understand the role the Gith play in preventing the reformation of the mindflayer empire? If not, that opens up a lot of roleplay options. I could imagine a barbarian having no concept of multiverse politics. For my own games, I tend to play my characters as hoping that an Orpheus who sacrifices himself for his people will serve as a potent symbol for the rebels, and they hope that will help balance out the loss of his powers.
Yes we had and I was very glad to see your name pop up again too. =)
Likewise!
I guess we see him overcoming different flaws. You are right to say that it a theme of his romance to come to accept that he can be valued for what he is, not for what aims to be or what he pretends to be. And we both agree that Gale-god is a "failure" ending, one where Gale is consumed by his ambition.
Let me add another text to the one's we've discussed already.
This interpretation is on my mind because I recently watched the truly terrible Sci Fi adaptation of the Wizard of Earthsea (don't! it's sooo bad! but do read the books if you haven't) and have been realizing how many parallels there are between Ged, Wizard of Earthsea and Gale, Wizard of Waterdeep.
Like Ged, Gale was progidy, a golden child. When Ged went to university he learned the secret names at an astonishingly fast rate, his memory was far superior to other students. And, of course, this earned him the enmity of his peers. And yet Ged felt inferior to them because he came from a poor village and because he had been trained by a woman. (Earthsea being a patriarchal culture where women's magic was thought to be wicked and weak) Goaded on by a playground duel Ged sought to prove his superiority to the other students. Like Gale, Ged found a book of forbidden secrets that contained a spell that he was warned was far above his ability to cast. But Ged was the star student, the valedictorian, perhaps even the chosen one - no spell was above his abilities! Suffused with Hubris he cast the spell, and successfully summoned a dead spirit. Only to be attacked by a shadow. His shadow. A being that nearly killed him and that destroyed much of his magical acumen. The shadow stole many of Ged's skills, he learned at a far slower rate and had to quietly depart the college as a C student, not the valedictorian.
He is hounded by his shadow for years and he tries to face it, unsuccessfully, a number to times. Until he finally realizes that he can no longer run from it. He will come to terms with it even if doing so kills him.
For me the bomb moment parallels the moment when Ged turns to face his shadow. He looks his failures in the face and no longer seeks to blame his misfortunes on his ex. With both characters it's hard to say where the feelings of inferiority end and feelings of superiority begin, they are twin traits that eat each other's tails and feed on the other. BUT for all the good things about the Gale romance he still pins his failures on Mystra and not himself. Don't ask him about Mystra! You won't like the answer. In the romance has wrestled with his shadow but not yet defeated it.
Gale only defeats his shadow when he offers to detonate. He has learned to care something other than his personal ambition. This, IMO, is best ending of romance because there is no greater love. His act not only saves his friends but destroys the object that could have made him a god. Love achieved, Hubris destroyed. Success.
i have never done the quote /unquote "good" ending because i get bored of those runs and normally just let my wizard pop or delete the save at sorcerous sundries
Luke Skywalker: I don't, I don't believe it. Yoda: That is why you failed.
@KillerRabbit, firstly I do have to ask where you take it from that Mystra is painted as a crazy ex and especially that she is made out to be one by Gale himself. I have read this assumption in many fan theories, but not from Gale himself. I admit, that I only went through his dialogue with a lawful/good "such ambition is horrible" angle once, so I am not sure if it changes anything. In my experiences with his dialogue, he is even protective of Mystra and stands up for her when you make snide remarks about her in Act 3 and he isn't on the war path. The most negative thing I recall ist that he feels a little salty that she asked him to die, which I cannot fault him for.
For me the hubris reading - also in connection to the story you related - misses the plot twist in Act 3. Hear me out:
Gale is a wizard, he gets his power from study and using his intellect to solve problems. While he is generally very cordial to clerics and bards, he's competitive with other wizards and somewhat dismissive of sorcerers who just got talent. He also points out how important study is at every opportunity, a lot of his banter resolves around this, especially with Lae'zel who seems to be a fellow nerd.
So, during the first act of Gale's folly, when his girlfriend shows him what magic is possible and beyond his reach, he gets a spot of imposter syndrome and, instead of being inspired to study harder, asks her for a leg up. She says no, he pleads and pouts (framed as the wrong thing to do by Gale himself) and eventually sets out to get her a very over the top present, a lost part of herself. This of course backfires and in Act 1 Gale believes that he was punished for trying to push to hard. This differs from the story you told about Ged, because Gale never tried to get himself a powerful spell from a forbidden book, he tried to get a present for Mystra to sort of guilt-trip her into letting him in on some of her secrets. His assumption that he got punished for his transgression is also wrong. It does show that he only blames himself for everything though, leading to depression as @SteelTempest pointed out above.
In act 3 Gale learns that the orb was something completely different from what he thought it was and that Mystra did not punish him at all. She just severed their connection, because he suddenly became very dangerous to her and - this is my interpretation - she didn't quite know what his intentions towards her were. I say this because she instantly reaches out to Gale if he shows good will in the Shadow-cursed Land, and her dialogue during the audience to me also sounds like she trying to suss out where he's standing. After the audience, Gale is furious with himself that he made such a rookie mistake and - at least on the forgiveness route - is mostly furious with himself for having been so stupid. Gale's "facing his shadow" moment is meeting Mystra because really everything hinges on this conversation. If he tries to ascend without having spoken to her, he will explode because he wasn't "armed with the truth".
The irony is, that in his desire to become an even more powerful wizard, he ignored what makes a good wizard in the first place: Research and study, two things he holds dear. The moral of the tale isn't that power or even ambition is bad, but that throwing your ideals in the wind to get somewhere quickly leads to ruin - even God-Gale needs to have learned this lesson in order to succeed.
In regard to your last paragraph and again with what @SteelTempest wrote in mind, I don't like to think of love as one-way-street. Yes, Gale offers to sacrifice himself so neither his lover, his friends nor the world come to harm, but his desire to do so is very much fuelled by his low opinion of himself. I am not sure if you ever got the conversation with him at the brainstem, during which he tries to persuade you into letting him explode, but he is clearly not in a good head-space during it. So, while this conversation is painful, I love that it indirectly forces you to tell Gale that he quite literally means the world to you because you'd rather risk everything than loose him.
While Gale's "the exploration and acceptance of the self and the other" from Act 2 mostly means sex in the context he gives it in, I really like it as a general cornerstone for love - or any form of relationship really.
Gale certainly has dialogue where he expresses bitterness towards all the Gods. He also has dialogue available after his act 2 romance scene where he says he doesn't think he mattered much to Mystra: "I was not the first wizard to fall under her spell, nor will I be the last. I was an amusement to her, a mortal to be trifled with, amused, and eventually discarded." His next line is him acknowledging that he hurt her and saying he regrets it, so I don't think that interaction counts as him calling her a "crazy ex."
Upon further reflection, I have come up with further additional difficulties for a Gale sacrifice to be a satisfying good ending. The "man sacrifices himself to find redemption" thing is not unique. I've seen complaints that it's a trope. I'm not saying it can't be done well, it can, but there's competition. Of the top of my head, I can think of
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and Return of the Jedi.
It would have to be written very well to compare favourably.
KillerRabbit has already pointed out the other big problem. In that situation, the story stops being about the player character and focuses on Gale.
I also remembered that Gale has an "eager to die" flag, so we can add that on to my list for proof of depression. I do think that interpreting Gale as depressed helps make his human endings more satisfying. Not chasing external validation anymore is great, and recovering from depression on top of that is lovely.
Thanks for @SteelTempest! That is the line I was thinking of. I waited until after the tabernacle before choosing that option wondering if it would be different if I asked then and was disappointed that it was not. The voice actor does deliver it with certain fervor . . .
So as it stands Gale is still thinking that Mystra used him as a plaything even after learning the truth. And this one of the many flaws with Act 3. The Larian authors were still using the DOS2 template when thinking of the gods - and that framework constructs gods as parasites that treat their followers as toys to be discarded when broken. But the gods of Faerun aren't like the gods of Rivellon . . .
As far as tropes, I think you are right. I think the UR template - one behind both of your examples - is a xtian one. A hero is a martyr, someone capable of infinite love because there is no greater love than self sacrifice. Indeed if we ask why we can't raise Gale after he dies you would do better to examine the template than to dive into FR lore. True Resurrection only requires a name it doesn't even require a body. (and a description will substitute for a name)
@Anska On the Hubris reading
I think we've hit a keystone if not *the* keystone of our different readings. I don't believe Gale when he says he went to get Mystra a present, I think he's lying to himself.
Borrowing some relationship dynamics from my family for a silly example. Dad - really likes fishing / Mom - really likes books and reading.
Dad: "So I went to the new bait and tackle shop because I heard that your mom's favorite author likes to hang out there - an autograph would have been the best present ever! Unfortunately the author was a no show. But the trip wasn't wasted, I did get this new fishing rod"
KillerRabbit (internally): Sure dad you went to the bait and tackle shop to get a present for mom
...
Gale: "I know, I'll get Mystra the best present ever in a manipulative grand romantic gesture. Who knows, perhaps such an effort would persuade her to relent and show me what she is hiding. And if I happen to see some arcane secrets that Mystra hadn't managed to hide away that wouldn't the worst outcome would it? But that's not why I'm doing it! Nope, I'm not trying to manipulate her and/or find a way to uncover some secrets. This is an innocent romantic gesture like . . . like . . . proposing to someone in the middle of a sports stadium!
. . .
I think Gale went in search of arcane knowledge. The gift would either persuaded Mystra to reveal her secrets or the book itself would include some of Mystryl's secrets that she hadn't secured.
While I like the "needed to return to research and study" interpretation I think he did intend to do what an adventuring researcher does - look for knowledge in a dungeon and study it. Making his failure one based in hubris and not in failure to remember what makes a wizard a wizard.
Because my Tav was multiclassed as Cleric of Mystra / Wizard I got to see both conversational options when finding Karsus' book. From memory the wizard option was something like "you need to uncover these secrets that's what wizards do" and the cleric options were something along the lines of "you are contemplating a blasphemous act, put it out of you mind immediately"
So in Larian's view a proper wizard should seek to defy the gods and becoming their equal. Perhaps you are smarter than Karus, Gale? (and I sooo hate that they changed the ending to make this work in a way players could feel good about)
@Ussnorway I would like to see Larian numbers on this. How many people get to act 3, complete the companion stories and then just quit or start another game?
So I do think that Mystra announcing that Gale had proven himself worthy of the trust she placed in him and returning him to his lover would be a good ending. But, as @SteelTempest notes that ending also has problems.
I really want a no mindflayer ending without using an exploit.
Does anyone know how much knowledge about Gith politics the residents of the Sword Coast have? Players can have metaknowledge that the Gith help keep the Mindflayers from taking over the multiverse, but would our characters know that? I asked earlier, and I'm not sure if my comment was missed, or if people don't know. I'm really curious.
That's a great take bringing Earthsea's Ged into Gale's story, he is certainly a vain person, brought low by hubris, but I think when we meet Gale in our story he's been humbled. Like all of our characters he's given a choice of back sliding into resentment and doubling down on that hubris or in coming to terms with the consequences of his actions. I'm curious to know how much of his attitudes and responses change based on which direction you foster through out the playthrough. I'm also not sure how much of a Jungian overlay we can transpose onto the the orb as much as we can Ged's Shadow, but that's neither here nor there.
Having him make his great sacrifice and then being saved after this act of total devotion seems like a perfect happy ending for him.
I also think that Gale's desire to be more powerful, might have actually come from a place of true affection. Gale is in a relationship with a serious power imbalance, one that he thinks will only continue if he can meet Mystra on more equal terms. If I remember correctly, what spurred his reckless action was knowing that his great romance was on the way out. I've never really agreed with the take that Gale is a self-serving manipulator, self-aware or otherwise, and I don't think we're not supposed to take his self-assessment at face value. Especially considering that without any interence from my Tav, he seems to default to the route of selfless sacrifice.
As for 'lampshading' I'm glad you enjoyed that @KillerRabbit, it seems I find it more and more in stories I see, and I'm not sure if that's just me looking for it, or if writing is just getting more 'meta' "This is the part of the story where you make a great sacrifice hero!"
Originally Posted by SteelTempest
Does anyone know how much knowledge about Gith politics the residents of the Sword Coast have? Players can have metaknowledge that the Gith help keep the Mindflayers from taking over the multiverse, but would our characters know that? I asked earlier, and I'm not sure if my comment was missed, or if people don't know. I'm really curious.
I think if people know about Mind-Flayers, they know about their ancestral enemies who exist in the Aether. It probably isn't common knowledge, but it isn't going to be completely unknown. There's is supposedly a starjammer port at Waterdeep, though they're not supposed to fly in. I personally find that pretty contrived, but so is a lot of the FR.
Yes I do believe him there, @KillerRabbit, because the game never calls his words into question. When Gale learns of the Orb's true nature and is rattled by the revelation, he offers Mystra the same excuse "I only wished to prove myself worthy" and while she calls him out on several things during their conversation, she believes him here and tells him that he already was worthy.
For me the closest thing to how Gale tried to persuade Mystra, which we can experience ourselves, is the boat ride. Here he tries to convince the romanced player to take the Crown for the greater good.* He is clearly deluding himself (which you can point out) but the reason isn't hunger for power but again his desire to prove himself worthy. "Then have me, but have the best version of me." The scene itself and all the interactions that come before it during Act 3 (The circus, the brothel**, the newly repaired conversation about his family name) are set up to show, how ill at ease he is with his human self ("You like so many things about me, that I'd have sooner discarded.") and that magical power for him is a way to escape himself.
In the situation with Mystra, he wanted to prove himself worthy of her gift by presenting a grand romantic gesture, again the magical power is just a substitute while the feeling of being deemed worthy is the real goal. I'd also like to point out that Gale's whole story is very adamant about big, over the top romantic gestures not being necessary or - in the worst case - bringing doom. Which is why self sacrifice as the greatest love does not work in this setting either, it is a bad thing to allow your lover to do something like this.
And I think they did a good job with all of his endings because they are way more nuanced than say Astarion's. Especially the "monster pcs" Avatar-Astarion, Karlach and Flayer-Tav have some overall very lovely variations as far as I can tell. You don't always need a hammer to make a point stick.
* And I love, how they made this his evil ending too. ** Again, I am so glad they changed the player dialogue here so you can now have this conversation without being an utter jerk.
This is an aside, but I love the insights Auntie Ethel’s vicious mockery can give into our companions, or their insecurities. In one of my current playthroughs, I’m fought her yesterday and the things she said to Gale were along the lines of “a human, wanting to be *special*’ and “at least the tadpole made you interesting”, reinforcing his self-worth issues. Though of course that doesn’t resolve the question of whether he responded to those by a grand gesture to prove a deity-worthy love, or by trying to steal enough power to become the equal of a deity.
Aside over
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I think if people know about Mind-Flayers, they know about their ancestral enemies who exist in the Aether. It probably isn't common knowledge, but it isn't going to be completely unknown. There's is supposedly a starjammer port at Waterdeep, though they're not supposed to fly in. I personally find that pretty contrived, but so is a lot of the FR.
Thanks for the response. That would give us some flexibility in what we would expect specific characters would know, and thus some roleplay flexibility.
Since Anska brought up how Gale's conversation about his family name is newly fixed, I would like to say how happy I am about that fix. It makes Gale's scene reclaiming his name more meaningful, since it now has the proper buildup explaining why he had stopped using it. ... It's an ending scene, my comment isn't completely off topic
Hopping on that tangent for a moment, I am also very happy this line got fixed. Like you said, during the scene in the Elfsong it sounds like the player character should already be aware of his family name and the reasons why he dropped it, so that reclaiming it becomes a sign of him starting his journey to be a bit more at ease with himself.
I know it's just a small thing, but it's probably the fix that made me most happy in the recent patch.
Does anyone know how much knowledge about Gith politics the residents of the Sword Coast have? Players can have metaknowledge that the Gith help keep the Mindflayers from taking over the multiverse, but would our characters know that? I asked earlier, and I'm not sure if my comment was missed, or if people don't know. I'm really curious.
I can only speak for 2e AD&D, set 120 years before BG3/5e, where your average Doust Sulgrym from the Sword Coast certainly wouldn't know anything about spelljamming, the fight of the githyanki or the Blood War. You needed a lot of magic to even reach these vistas to begin with. Only a handful of nations and city states had spelljamming vessels and jealously guarded their economies from goods that could be valued differently on other worlds. Even gold coins did not have the same value across the spheres, so this was strictly controlled. Therefore, landing spelljammers would turn their vessels invisible, and landing facilities were kept secret. Of course, this also provided an in-game explanation why worlds like Toril (FR) or Oerth (Greyhawk) still had medieval/renaissance societies while other campaign worlds had advanced firearms, different magic, other racial variations and so on. It actually became a part of my home campaign to show how species, technology, exotic goods and knowledge slowly spread and advance.There are even rules for this in some of the old TSR books.
Other planes of existence, like Astral Space, the Inner/Elemental planes and the Outer Planes that contained many of the divine domains where more of a religious or spiritual idea to someone born into a small village on the Sword Coast. Planar natives would therefore call folks from the Mortal/prime material plane the "Clueless". Tales from these fantastic locales would probably be known to Doust, but coming with poetic liberties from the side of the priest or bard spinning them. From encounters in adventures and their monster book entries, Githyanki would mostly be known as raiders coming out of nowhere and would either be fled from or get attacked on sight. So, a moderately advanced character who has been around could know these things, but without either a sagely background or hands-on experience, most commoners would not be able to tell fiends apart or know mind flayers as anything more than these brain-eating monsters from the Underdark.
Not having played any of the WotC editions, it was part of the fun with BG3 for me to explore the world 120 years on. The devils seem to have gotten the upper hand in the Blood War, at least I can't think of finding any demons/tanar'ri in the game. Gith were no longer attacked on sight, but still seemed to be fairly unknown to most of the folks we met. Tieflings on the other hand seem to be way more common on the Sword Coast in 1492DR than in the olden days. I'm not sure how much this has to do with the events in Elturel, but they were quite rare and superstitiously feared in 2e.
Maybe if they had an option to use Disguise Self for any character to look like their original appearence? Given that it lasts all day, you could call that an illithid power if you like; there's definitely another illithid in the game who can project a humanoid appearence. 
