Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Wyll should make his own decisions

No, he isn't a moralizer. I like, that you can call him out and get approval from him. I think, Mizora has plot armor from the time they thought they might need her later, before they decided not to make a DLC or BG4. But that is just me theorizing.

That has never been the case for me (I always freed Wyll from his pact and she always still came up to me) maybe you were bugged?

@fylimar
It could be a plot leftover, there was a dialogue where she implied she had some further revenge plans if you outplay her (I think it was a detect thoughts option, but I might remember it wrong). But since nothing ever happens, she is just such a pointless character.

Yeah, another leftover, I guess. I remember that there was talk about revenege. I think it was after we free Duke Ravenguard while Wyll has broken his pact.

I was recently replaying the big choice for Wyll, and I had forgotten how great Lae'zel's comment about Mizora is when I chose to free him. "Chk - the devil Mizora's made herself quite at home, hasn't she? Do make her feel as unwelcome as you can."

And since I listen to my gith best friend, I tried to turn Mizora into stone. Sadly, I'm on HM, so no spell spamming.

I support this. Not only should Wyll make his own decision but he needs more content. Also I don't care for Mizora, she makes me mad and since she doesn't leave camp I will forever stab her every time I pass by her (:

By the way: YOu really should take Lae'zel, Wyll and Gale to the Rosymorn Monastery for a lot of interesting lore dump. Wyll and Gale ask Lae'zel some interesting questions about githyanki and mindflayer and this is one of the rare time, where there are continued discussions between all trhee companions. Definitively the best time, I had with companions there so far.

Yes, they have some interesting chats. Another one is Wyll and Gale talking about the shadowlands.

Coming back to the original topic, I don't think it is as easy as giving Wyll a default decision, that he can fall back on so he can make his own choice.

If you kill Karlach, I think Wyll has a compelling story that is similar to Astarion and Gale's in that he believes he needs the devilish powers to be a hero but at the same time realises he cannot be that hero as long as he is tied to the hells. If you talk to him at the party after killing Karlach and receiving Mizora's reward for it, he is in anguish over how many innocents he might have unknowingly killed for Mizora before. The theme of receiving a reward for a wicked deed comes up again in Act 2, when you can get an excellent rapier for freeing a devil, a thing that stands against all that Wyll wants the Blade to be. His dialogue after Elminster visits the party at the beginning of act 2 foreshadows the choice he has to make:


Wyll is of course not willing to die for Mystra's forgiveness, but Mystra's forgiveness does not matter to him. It is his father, that he is willing to throw his life and soul away for. And it is the ideals that he lists, that he does not and did not fully trust in. If he had, he would not have accepted Mizora's deal to become the singular tragic hero to save the Gate at the cost of his own freedom, but would have humbly alarmed the city. (The whole thing about devil deals in the game is that they seem like the only option, but if you have hope you can find another way - like Hope who did just that.)

So when the time comes to choose between his father and his soul, in order to give a compelling conclusion to his narrative, a discussion of theses topics would be needed in order to sway Wyll to one side or the other and instil him with faith in his own ideals.

This gets more complicated when you add Karlach to the mix, because with her in the party, all of this gets reduced down to Mizora being a meanie and all the nuance and character development for Wyll gets lost.

As for Wyll being a moraliser, when asked about his opinion on matters, he usually falls back to morality tales (e.g. after meeting Raphael), quotes his father or makes general statements of what would be the right thing to do.

I wish,Wyll could have had those talks with us tbh. Shadowheart can show us flashbacks, I don't know, how often the topic of Cazador came up with Astarion, to name the two most popular companions. So yes, I would love to have Wyll tell me about his doubts and wishes more and maybe have a flashback about his situation with the Tiamat cult. Someone wrote an idea for a continuation on that and I begged them to make a fanfic out of it, because it was so cool.

I don't see Wyll as moralising. Yes, he likes his little stories and he has his moral codex but he is pretty critical of himself and even gives approval, if you call him out. I think him quoting his father shows, that he does miss him.

I very much agree. Wyll has the outlines of a fascinating story and character, but there is too little of it actually shown to us in the game itself. We have to read between the lines to understand him better, when really he needs to have more meaningful conversations with the player about himself. While I'm not sure how feasible that is for Larian to add at this point, I very much do wish Wyll was more fleshed out.

I mean he does tell you about it already, but it's a bit of a shame that you don't have a climatic conversation about ending the pact or not with him, when Mizora pressures him. It just goes straight to picking one of the options for him without any kind of conversation about the advice you give him and his feelings in regards to it. I am not expecting Boat-scene levels of intricacies but something would be nice.

I'd never thought about how this reaction reflected Wyll's own situation. Very interesting. As an aside, I do like Wyll's reaction to Mystra's orders. It's the same basic points as Lae'zel gives, and I love her reaction too. Coincidentally, they are the only two I can get reactions from here, when I play as Gale.

I think like with the other companions he should at least have a default decision without the MC's input, as I'm sure others have said. If he was allowed to make his own choice imo there's no way he wouldn't choose to save his father over himself. I've always told him to end the deal but I don't believe it's what he would choose on his own, and I think it would make more sense as a persuasion option. Then again maybe this is an intentional characterization decision for him? That he's so unsure of what to do in the moment that he in a sense lets someone else choose for him, or at least follows whatever advice they offer.

Even if the writer intended for this to represent how unsure Wyll is, this does not mean the protagonist - who is controlled by the player - has to be in agreement. There should be an option to tell Wyll to choose for himself.

At the core this is the same issue as with e.g. Halsin inviting himself into your camp. The writer does not consider what the protagonist's (player's) point of view of the situation might be. And that is not good writing.

I agree. The single worst thing for me about Wyll is that he's unable to make his own choice in this scene. If Larian is winding down on making narrative changes to the game, this is the top thing I would choose to add for Wyll. It's weird that he's the only one without a default choice/agency. And if it is intentional characterization that he's so unsure of himself, there needs to be at least some dialogue lines where he expresses this. Otherwise it looks accidental. And there also needs to be some kind of resolution to his uncertainty, or else it looks like an unfinished story. Given all that would need to be done to make intentional indecisiveness convincing, I think it is easier for Larian to just give him agency.

Totally agree. He needs agency and a bit more meat to the story. I mean he has by far the least content and didn't get any polish to his quest and story in all patches , despite people having asked for it.
Other companions are down to counting kisses, poor Wyll can't even make his own decisions. Not to mention, the lack of reactivity.

I thought there is already an option for Wyll to decide if he wants to save his father or break the contract. If you let him decide it, he will save his father and sign the new eternal contract. I will never let him sell his soul to any devil again. Wyll is basically the only person who keeps facing tough choices that require major sacrifices. He is too good a person to make choices that put himself first, and for that I am unapologetically interfering for sure. I have to, or this good man never gets a break in his life. To me, Wyll making his decision equals to Wyll sacrificing himself for others again, so I am not sure if this redundant option is really that necessary.

Also, during the conversation, we will be convincing Wyll, not speaking directly to Mizora for Wyll. We suggest to him what to choose, then he tell Mizora. For me, by the time this happens, Wyll is already deeply in love with my character. He is the only one I will romance in all my play throughs. I have a very specific type. Lol. I don't think it's that bad for a romantic partner to have a say in this scene if we plan to share the rest of our lives. If you don't romance him, it is super easy to max out his approval in a good or non-evil run. High approval means you are really good friends. It is natural to consult and listen to a good friend or someone you admire.

I had the scene not long ago and he looks to us expectantly to decide. While I could live with something along 'What do you think? I could use someadvice here.' from Wyll and then, if his approval is high enough, he follows our advice, I could most certainly live with that. But I feel, like we just decide that for him.

And I agree that making tough choices for the better of others and in doing so making his own life worse is kind of Wylls thing. I don't say, he never made his own decisions, in fact, I'd say, he is one of the most mature ones in decision making among the companions.