Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Larian, please ensure you don’t take away player agency with AA in patch 7

It says, to be precise: Very arrogant Vampire Lord Astarion can't believe you're trying to break up with him. and slightly abusive/threatening. Which of these justifies fear or dread during kissing? I still don't get it. He's just grumbling.

There's also dialog with the mortal Tav, who decided to break up with him:

Astarion: Perhaps we'll even meet again someday. The future is yet to be written, after all.

Not a threat, but not NOT a threat.

But these are still not overt threats with the intent to scare.

This is to say nothing of the dialog in the game, where the player himself can intimidate and openly threaten AA.


I don't think so. “You can't leave” and “I like scaring you” are not things of the same order. It's too much of a stretch. When you agreed to be his spawn, the condition was “together forever”, which he reminds you of. He thinks without irony that you're lucky he chose you.


And I say again, the AA I've known for 5 patches would just kiss your Tav gently, not kiss him against his will, seeing that Tav is scared.


I don't know what you're talking about. What exactly was planned? Kissing Karlach was only in the spawn route. What does this have to do with AA? It's just that a lot of AA fans liked the kiss and so it was given to us.


Forced upon you an interpretation that has been in the game for 5 patches in a row? I'm sorry, how did you play before patch 6?


How should kissing that you find offensive help you avoid the triggers? When a tender kiss is much more in line with the request? My trigger is rewriting a character on the fly.

Folks, come on. I've asked repeatedly that we don't derail this thread, and extended discussions of game ratings are certainly not on topic.

I'll also remind folk that forum rules mean we must remain respectful of others' opinions and character preferences, even if we don't share them. And please do other forum members the courtesy of not flooding the forum with repetitive posts, which past a certain point also breaches forum rules.

Some forum members prefer the current AA animations and have said so here, as is their right. Others preferred things beforehand, or the new patch 7 animations and have said so, as is their right.

It feels like further discussion here is not going to bring those sides closer together, and is only going to risk annoying everyone (including neutrals who can't easily avoid the repeated arguments) and descending into another row that's likely to get people warned, suspended or even banned.

Please don't do it, people!

As I've said multiple times here, please recognise when it's time to agree to disagree and move on.

He has a special voice line for it too. Astarion romance has several special scenes for Avatar-Karlach, a modified act 1 romance scene, the kiss in question and a special "turning night" for the ascended route. That was clearly all very intentional.

I'm sorry, if you really think "abusive" means "just grumbling", I don't know how to have this conversation. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.


And that's fine. It's also fine if someone has a different interpretation and doesn't think the kisses were ever out of character.


I'm not sure what the question is here? It has never before been decided for me that my character would love being choked or told to kneel out of nowhere when they ask for a kiss.


What can be triggering is the jarring dissonance between what we see in the kisses and Tav's reactions to them. You don't have to understand why a narrative was important to someone or why something is triggering for another person to respect it. If you really want to understand, maybe it would help to stop constantly assuming malicious intentions or sexual motives on our part.

Didn't they change the Act 2 kiss for Karlach though?

From the newest yt clip I found, which is from 4 months ago, he now doesn't miss her mouth any longer.

That kiss was exclusive to Spawn and Karlach, AA couldn't have it because AA could only keep his relationship with Karlach if he skipped the transformation scene. This, by the way, proves that AA with its dominant notes didn't come out of nowhere.



He has no control over Tav, even when Tav sleeps with others. In real life though, most people have control over this in their partners.


Context:

Be careful, Astarion. My engine is running so hot. I won't be able to control it.
Hush love, it's all right. You don't have to worry.
Forget about your engine. Forget about control. I'll take care of everything.
trying to reassure Karlach, while thinking of how he's going to have control of her soon

He's reprimanding Tav, not making death threats like you're trying to make it sound.


Just as a facts:

1. The kisses were tender.
2. AA didn't do anything Tav didn't like, like grabbing his throat, only if Tav didn't want him to.
3. Tav's opinion was taken into account.
3. there were no moments in the game where Tav was panic-stricken by anything AA said or did.

You believe these kisses are not out of character, fine, but don't say it was BEFORE patch 6. These kisses confirmed your interpretation, but don't say it was before. The way you're fighting for them now, claiming that without those kisses, the abuse narrative will disappear from the game... speaks volumes.


Funny thing is, before patch 6 Astarion didn't make you do any of the above unless you consented to it.



You're not respecting that for me the character was destroyed by patch 6 and the concept of kissing where there is no consent, which wasn't the case before this patch. It's a trigger not just for me though, but for a huge number of fans of this route.

He still calls Tav "pet" in the breakup attempt if they objected to being called that. He won't take no for an answer and continue the relationship in the turning scene unless Tav gives in and kneels. After the final fight, Tav can't even leave the relationship. Yes, he takes what Tav wants into account, but only if it aligns with what he also wants.



I do respect that. I have said numerous times now that I'm happy for you to have your version of the story, and that I understand why other players lost the narratives they had built with Patch 6. The same thing would happen to me and others if the new expressions were forced onto every Tav.

This is going to be my last reply to you, because it really doesn't feel like you're engaging in good faith or this is going anywhere.
I hope that after Patch 7, we can both have the stories that are important to us.

I don't want to engage with the ongoing argument. Nevertheless, you can't have control/agency over everything and I like when games acknowledge that, especially in relationship between characters, be it friendship, rivalry, love, or something else entirely.

There are games, where protagonist's family members get killed, i.e. Far Cry 3 comes to mind. A certain group of people could've experienced such horrors IRL, seeing such a scene being violently depicted in a game can be very unpleasant for most and traumatizing for some. I can't imagine people asking to remove this type of content though, or change it, to be a good thing. It serves narrative(!) purposes. You can't raise awareness about certain matters without depicting them and showing the associated cause and consequence. Sometimes stuff just happens, you get beaten up in the street in the middle of the night (hello, Astarion) or you get grabbed by your throat without enough time to process a thoughtful and appropriate reaction. Sometimes you just act on the whim, then contemplate later. In that regard, both patch 6 and patch 7 variants are equally just as crucial plot points that raise player's awareness about the new Astarion. Is it who he is now? Is it concerning? Do I like it? Am I OK with this? What does it mean for the relationship? It all shows in both versions, and it's the most important part.

You know, i got to the banters in the patch, be careful spoilers
I understand that you liked the expressions of patch 6, but they do not make sense to leave them, so to speak. But if Larian finds a way to leave them, based on conversations, then fine, I will be happy for you, the main thing is that the kisses of patch 7 do not disappear.
But there is a danger that new players will accidentally get to kisses with fear, and this will cause anger, misunderstanding, and other negative emotions that we experienced in our time. Therefore, it is dangerous to leave these kisses with an expression of fear, I think. Please do not be offended, I understand you, but a happy face looks more convenient, you can play the role, as I described above, and break off relations at the very end, where Astarion is angry, and Tav is not able to leave him. Complete hopelessness.

I understand that, and I do believe players should get the option to avoid that trigger. But aren’t our triggers valid too? Shouldn’t we also be extended that same grace? That’s why we’re asking for the toggle. Still, thank you for at least trying to understand. I appreciate that.

I think it's unnecessary to ask the posters, who disagree with this suggestion, so many questions and have an endless debate, some people have already given their reasons. Some of us do not want to talk about this again and again. People have given Feedback already (including the OP) in the last months and in different threads and channels. Players have stated here, that they don't want to have this sensitive scene (nonconsensual) in the game (not with a toggle and not with flags where you can then come across it unintentionally, as often suggested here by a person) and each individual who is against it has their own reason. Why is this constantly being questioned, everyone has the right to reject a suggestion of another player and say so. The decision is Larian's.

An interchangeable scene of a BDSM / Kink with an SV scene, separated only by a toggle or flag, is disrespectful and dangerous for the BDSM community and brings it into disrepute, can fuel prejudice and hatred towards us, so I don't want that.
The changes of a consenting kiss scene (prepatch 6) into non-consenting (patch 6) turns Astarion into a


in that specific scene, which wasn't there before, when asking for a kiss. A lot of People here have stated on the last pages, that they do not want personality changes in Astarion (or in that specific scene.) The fact, that some may see it otherwise, doesn't change the fact, that those people don't want it.

There are women* among us, who are affected by


don't question people, who are affected by this, why they may not want to have this scene in the romance path or why they may not want to have a toggle or flags for keeping this:

I and others have stated here: We do not want this suggestion of a toggle or flags to keep a sensitive scene and depiction of (see above) in the game. Again, everyone has their own opinion and different reasons. And some of us don't want to be questioned by this again and again, it's unpleasant for some of us. Some people agree with this suggestion, some people disagree with this suggestion - Larian decides to go with whatever they think is appropriate, what the majority wants or whatever reason they may have then. Thank you.

Edit: *Some of the victims I know don't want to come to the forum and / or talk about their personal life and feelings themselves in public, they just "cannot" do this. I hope it's understandable. And there are also very obvious reasons. Others have spoken out in the past months already, why they don't want this non-consensual scene, and cannot or don't want to do this again - for reasons.
Edit to Elly below: "It could also be argued that(...)" - Again, you questioned my disagreement. I disagree with this suggestion. These were my reasons. Point.

Can you please leave out the statistics and generalizations out of your request? This makes it look like a political pamphlet. There is no need to bring 'some group out there' into discussion. If those 'people out there' want it, they can write for themselves and naturally reinforce your point.

It does feel a lot like when we left feedback against Patch 6 in spring. Endless questions and having to defend our reasoning about everything.

It is one thing, asking to understand. When you get your answer you make up your understanding of a viewpoint and stop asking. Asking posters the same thing again and again feels a bit agressive. Answers are seldom gonna change.

To a lot of us it never was a "BDSM scene", though, neither did we see the romance path as a representation of it. It could also be argued that equating a relationship that includes Tav being intimidated out of a breakup attempt and in the end unable to leave the relationship to healthy BDSM would be far more dangerous and disrespectful to the community than a realistic depiction of a relationship that has nothing to do with BDSM.


To be honest it feels like it's the other way around now to me. In the first thread that was opened about this topic, the OP was bombarded with incredibly insensitive questioning and assumptions about their motives for wanting to keep the old expressions, so much so that it had to be locked. You can see the same things happening in this one too.

You know, I was neutral to the whole toggle thing, but I agree with this. Having a romantic kink scene masqueraded as an abuse scene at a toggle point.. no thanks.

it is indeed a merry-go-round.
I stand by the opinion the face needed the change and I'm glad to hear that is the case.

by all means I would prefer gentle or rough options depending how you answer turning night that would be a win -win not going to be a thing though so neutral would be the best option.

As stated in the thread that was 50+ pages
there is no signs of violence towards Tav at any point in Astarions role after his first initial scenes bite/dagger I have Ascended and Unascended him many times I'm at 20+ Tavs and I currently have a bug that I only romance Astarion though I picked Minthara/Gale on the choice dialogue so 20+ Astarion romances lol.

Patch 6 kisses were flaming awful and the 6 months prior to them they were not a thing there is no evidence in his story that they should of been a thing I don't even like the Karlach kiss.(pre patch 6)
I do believe we need to nuke the topic until after patch 7 .

There are less people wanting these patch 6 kisses to stay then those who want rid of them.
those who want to keep them seems to of inconveniently forgotten they didn't exist for 6 months beforehand.

That is not true. The community that has formed here is a very niche one. In broader communities like the bg3 reddit, the vast majority thought the original Patch 6 kisses made sense.

I see it that way too, the story can be dark, but in no case do I want something like that. Some things are too much and I don't understand why some things even came into the game.