Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

I am also against this and do not agree with the OP's subjective views at all. With thread after thread being opened asking to put back into the game, I feel the need to speak out against it. I really don't think that Larian wants to keep any in the game - and I hope they don't bring it back. It meant so much to me when I finally saw my character with him in the happier kiss animations when Patch 7 came out.

And to everyone, please be careful to NOT blame other fans for decisions that LARIAN themselves made. That can be very harmful, as it can incite hatred and encourages further harassment and aggression against a certain fanbase, who are already so often put down, mocked, and berated.
Fans can make suggestions to Larian (as they always did from the beginning) but that doesn't mean Larian always listens/agrees with it. If you look at the full patch notes, it's a huge list of changes and bug fixes; changes to facial expressions (not just for AA) was just a tiny portion of this.

You could roleplay/hc him being before Patch 6 if you wanted to. You do not need to showcase that through a repeatable kiss action. There was nothing to explicitly show our character having to be scared of him for 7 months before Patch 6 came out (and why should they be scared? SOME of us may be roleplaying certain type of evil characters ourselves, or strong leaders who would never react like that to some kisses from their romantic partner).

That has nothing to do with his romance.

That statement can also apply to you and the requests that you're making. Larian wanted to put romance, kisses, etc. in their game from the beginning.
Every other romance gets to be happy. I don't think Larian should be criticized for fixing their previous mistake and allowing players to have a happy romance with him.
Astarion's personality doesn't get altered by changing Tav's facial expression... what?

This. I wish people would stop spreading this narrative around as if it were an explicit fact. And it wouldn't automatically mean he would treat his romantic partner that way.

I second this.

Ooh, yes.

Aside, if Larian thought fear faces fit their narrative, they would've kept them.

AA fans are a minority. Most are spawn fans. AA fans don't have the power or ability to force or *make* Larian to do anything. They made the decision on their own. Just as they made the decision on their own to add, soften, and change other things in his narrative as well as UAs.

Would *love* to see the Nightingale mod on console!!

Agreed!!

I think it is highly inappropriate to suggest that there are fake accounts with no evidence. Just because people have different opinions from you doesn't mean that they're fake. A recent topic on Reddit brought attention to how the Dark Urge's story is still lacking. Someone suggested people start giving feedback on Larian's forums. So a lot of people have been signing up recently and taking a look at these forums.

Personally, I'm not doing any role plays with my trigger topics. I literally didn't expect the changes to upset me. I thought the concerns might have been exaggerated, went to Youtube to form my own opinion, and came out of it worse ever since. I will likely use the mod people have brought up if I ever do play this route again, but that doesn't change the fact that these new default expressions have triggered me and others. I doubt Larian intended to cause such a reaction with these changes, and I hope they will listen to our feedback about allowing more choice. This whole situation has soured things for me. I no longer want to replay AA's route just knowing about it, and that sucks since I also like his story.

It has everything to do with AA's characterization. And, again, this is not a dating sim. Romance defines him as a person just as well.

Yes, it applies to me. I'm asking to give me an option to have Larian's ORIGINAL ANIMATION. AKA their original vision. How they personally saw this, not how they've changed it, because fans asked for it.

It wasn't a mistake for me. It was definitely much more in line with their previous AA's characterization.
Again, Astarion's own words: "I wanted to be just like Cazador". It's canon. And no, not every romance gets to be happy. Just one example is when Gale sacrifices himself in the end. Astarion already has a happy romance route - his Spawn route. I play AA romance for the tragedy and toxicity of it, I want to process this in a safe game environment, it's actually healing to me. When I want a happy romance with Astarion, I play Spawn romance.

Once again, it IS an explicit fact, because Spawn literally says he wanted to be just like Cazador and he has no reason to lie in this moment. It's as clear as it can be.
Not to mention the scene with the Vellioth's skull.
Also, Astarion repeats Cazador's rules to Tav - it's also canon.

This is your personal canon.

I'm be honest as someone who used to romance AA Patch 6's kisses turned me right off which kind of bums me out. I enjoyed AA (As a messy relationship but yes) but those weird kisses turned me right off. Even with the better expressions the kisses are so overly extra it's a turn off.

And yeah the forced horror on Tav's face was a big part of that. LIke I don't need my PC looking horrified when they were happily involved every other time.

(That and I'm be frank I don't think Larian has enough skill to do a abusive plot involving the player as a victim the way it deserves frankly.)

This. Exactly. It's still triggering for a lot of people. So it shouldn't be some default expression without any option to choose.

I'd like to expand on my first comment.

I'd like to point out a fact:
The intimate scene with Aastarion, is written without any hints, shadowy anxieties or anything else that my character is afraid of, uncomfortable doing it.
There's no need for fear opition, or a neutral face - which would just look like dissociation.
So I'm strictly against the opeation of a fearful or even neutral face in kissing.

I'm not against various discussions of why, what happened, (it's just better to make it a sorta dryad quest in general).
Especially when the player said "no" to everything, discuss things. And there will be different options, no problem there.

Enjoyment in intimacy was dictated.

My character no matter how I play them enjoys being choked in their knees if I click on it.
I can intrepret that my character decided to do it when they didn't really want to in order to keep the relationship. And doesn't understand any of what's going on at all, and “forever together” and “being his” are figuratively speaking.
And then he'll play 3-4 lines of dialog other than breaking up because they don't want to. This is a possible development, but the main mood is different.
The scripts are one-sided in that regard.

‘They're enjoying’.

This shows Larian's attitude of how they treat intimate scenes with AA.
I don't know if Larian were trying to make it BDSM. Or "fantasy BDSM".
The enjoyment of such a thing is shown.

If it's a dirty problematic story with a man who can't be touched and doesn't really like any rules, moral rules - well, yes, from Act 1.
A - no.
It's a fantasy story, not a very cheesy reality show with an ugly moral lesson in “how to do the right thing” told through kissing and pantomime of angsty and scared faces.

The character enjoys. And Astarion hardly enjoys when they're uncomfortable.
So originally Larian didn't want any discomfort with intimacy at all in Astarion's path of evil when everyone agreed to an eternal bond.

So I'm in favour of opition
- gently
- roughly
to make it comfortable for everyone to choose like before.
but with an enjoyable set of faces categorically.

I could say I'd like different vibes for the kiss, as I like to press ‘gentle’ to see different dynamics.
But Larian really has something to do in this game.
So I'm just glad the original enjoyment story is back.

Frankly, it's not even a matter of role-play.

The patch 6 facial expressions made Tav seem like they had amnesia. Imagine asking for a kiss fifty times in a row and bugging your eyes out as if you'd seen a twenty-foot spider - each fricking time. Talk about overreacting! The expressions were simply ridiculous.


The Larian team member who came up with the idea to swap the original motion-captured animations with these overly frightened faces made a huge mistake. The fixed animations in this scene still aren't perfect, but at least they've been toned down and are less komisch now. Let's live with that.

P.S. Honestly, I could create more realistic facial expressions using soft like Blender, staying true to real-life emotions. And none of these would look like the options we've seen so far.

---


As a free-thinker, I also don't dare to claim my interpretations and head-canons as canon. Hopefully, we can all follow that approach. I also strongly believe we should listen to the original writer, Stephen Rooney, as only he has the right to express definitive opinions on Astarion storyline, and no-one else.

Let's remember, people working at Larian are human-beings who make mistakes. They made a dire mistake (which actually looked like some rookie employee's initiative), they saw the consequences, and they fixed it - while still leaving room for different interpretations. Well done, and thanks to the Larian team.

Dixi.

His original kisses are not Patch 6 kisses, his original kisses are the ones that were available at release. They have changed over time, just as many characters have also received new kisses and character changes. Patch 7 is now the final version Larian wanted.

As a small, well-intentioned side note

Trying to pass off your own free interpretation of statements as fact is not a good discussion style and will not help you find support for your goals. There is little point in believing that you just have to be loud enough to achieve your goal, you also have to convince the other side with arguments. So it is more likely to be seen as trolling and will always ensure that there will be strong backlash. It's not "we" who have to argue what speaks against it, "you" who have to explain argumentatively what speaks for it and with facts. You have to convince Larian why they have to stick to the "circle of abuse" and why AA's story is actually complete would have to be changed because the rest doesn't fit in at all. Yes, he said “Pet”. Personally, I would stay objective in a discussion like this and not try to insult others by accusing them of using the game as a dating app. Fewer swipes would make these discussions more serious.

I personally think that these kisses, facial expressions and other adaptations are what AA is supposed to be, a lovable, quirky villain. For my Durge, I would have liked even more smiles in the kisses, as an approval of our relationship as a villain couple.

I also don't know where this moral judgment comes from that says evil=bad ending. For me, AA is a happy vampire who now has everything he wanted. For me it has a happy ending with my evil Durgie. I'm very happy how the game experience is for me. And no, I personally don't want to see Astarion or any other companion in the role of the violent "badword". And I don't want people to act like *badword* in a game it's a therapy like "swimming with dolphins."

With the recent changes to UA I really feel sorry for the poor man. He doesn't deserve that.

This so much. So much. I remember bursting out laughing the first time I saw those faces because they were so clownish and over exaggerated (almost as much as I laughed at that I want sex choice during the turning scene because whew wtf was that).

And yeah if they wanted to put that in the game fair enough but A. A custom character isn't where to do it and B. Please have some actual experts in the room.

Asking for a kiss isn't the same thing as asking to be (description of the patch 6 kisses) It makes perfect sense if Tav/Durge is surprised and upset if they ask for a kiss and that happens to them instead. The same can be said for players. They only consented to a kiss according to the text, not anything else. In my playthrough I only asked enough times to see all the new kisses once, not 20 times. So it made perfect sense for my character to look upset.

I strongly disagree that this route depicts BDSM. There's nothing to show that this is meant to be a BDSM relationship in-game. Here's more information about how BDSM is actually practiced. In the game, there's no discussion of the dynamic beforehand, safe words, check-ins, aftercare, etc. All of which are practiced in BDSM to ensure everyone's safety and enjoyment. If Larian intended to depict a healthy BDSM relationship, they should add some of these things in order to educate people who don't know what a healthy BDSM relationship should look like. Otherwise, it perpetuates a negative and incorrect view of what BDSM actually is.

So your character upon being *asked for another kiss to be horrified at* instead of going "Wtf was that?" (like seriously that's the entire issue with this scenario. It's nonsense from top to bottom).

Not to mention got on their knees again without saying anything instead choosing to have that horror look on their face?

Then the cherry on top Astarion swings side to side with a chirpy dialogue quip like it's tuesday and your PC has *nothing* to say about this?

But the expressions that's the immersion breaking thing here.

I agree

All of this is very well put

Honestly I'm a bit surprised. I see the people on here asking for the smile to be removed saying AA slaps Tav. Where?

Personally I also don't think being bitten by your vampire partner is a demonstration of any kind of negative connotation. I think it's fairly standard vampire kissing 101. But that's just my read on it!

I'm gonna ask again to please not put the blame on AA fans, when it was Larian's decision.

I think calling it a slap in the face is an exaggeration. He wipes Tav's face aside.

I would have liked to have had the opportunity to bite back and mix our blood while kissing. After all, I'm also a vampire and I get a lucky buff. *Durge approves*

This. All of this. Exactly.
Calling something BDSM which is not at all, can be very triggering for a lot of people and very harmful.

Okay, folks. Let’s remember forum rules and not get yet another AA thread locked and more forum members warned.


- Be respectful towards all forum members.
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