Against.
Why did Larian change Ascended Astarion's kisses from what they were?
Because it was a mistake that caused kissing, apparently originally intended as content for D/s, to turn into content showcasing the
*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***
Scenes of repetitive sexual violence that traumatized a large number of players who, unsuspecting, just updated their game at one far from perfect moment. There have been quite a few posts on the forum from people who have actually experienced SA/DA. People have experienced PTSD from these scenes. Many have permanently quit that game afterward and can't get back into it again, even despite the changes. I have spoken to people who were affected by the kissing scenes of patch 6, and I believe that the demand to add sexual assault scenes to the game is insulting to people who have actually experienced it, and had to experience their triggers again because of patch 6. Journal GamePro in the article
"Neue Astarion-Küsse in Baldu...end auf Fans und das ist der Grund" wrote on why these kisses were real trigger content. I'm in no way judging those who enjoy playing non-con, but I (and I'm not the only one, the rating system and the need to put warnings for triggered content exist for a reason too) believe that a legitimate place for such scenes is in games rated AO, Sexual Violence (depictions of rape or other violent sexual acts), and the presence of appropriate warnings. A conscientious developer who wants to add such scenes to a game should make the player aware of what they're buying before they buy, i.e. the game description and promo should mention that, for example, such-and-such companion will have SA/DA scenes if they choose to have romantic interactions with them. Then the roleplay you want will have all the legal grounds for existence and will not traumatize and hurt innocent people who just bought an RPG game after seeing their favorite setting and admiring beautiful promos, and wanted their favorite character to do well in the game, deciding to go down the “evil” path for the sake of it. The victim facial expressions on the player character's face added by patch 6 looked like consumer deception and outright mockery of part of the audience amidst the general cheerfulness and “positivity” because BG3 positions itself as a fun game.
The fact that Larian is positioning the Ascended Astarion's kissing scenes as D/s content can be told from the animation of those scenes, Adam Smith's words can also be mentioned: "We wanted it to feel authentic... I don't think sexuality should be controversial; different kinks, arousals, fetishes, whatever it might be... I think it's okay for things to be sexy." There are also plenty of options in the game to cater to different sexual preferences, sex in BG3 is a well-known topic that is regularly discussed in different media, and it makes more than sense that Larian decided to include an audience that likes the dynamic of D/s.
I don't want to disrespect those who like Ascended Astarion's new kisses, but I don't think Larian's original artistic intention was for Ascended Astarion to be a good ending for him. Instead, it was supposed to be an example of how he's repeating the cycle of abuse Cazador started. In the Spawn ending, Astarion treats you like an equal, but in his Ascended ending, he treats you like a subordinate.
Astarion author Stephen Rooney has said that Ascension is not a “bad” ending for Astarion, it's his “evil” ending. Astarion is an inherently evil character, and in most classic RPGs, including BG1 and BG2, successfully completing an evil companion's quest is an evil act that does good for that very companion and possibly bad for some NPCs or some locale, generally the “world”. The “evil” ending for an “evil” character is the good ending for that character. All the facts in the game say so. Spawn's ending is terrible: Astarion is abruptly and painfully deceived, and rejected. He doesn't expect at first what happens, he's been walking in the sun before, and probably deep down he desperately hoped things would stay the same. And he burns and runs away while the others rejoice in their victory, including Tav, and while they celebrate, Astarion sits somewhere behind the crates at the dock, curled up in a lump, slowly healing his wounds. Not only that - hunger will haunt him forever. Dulled senses and feelings - a vampire spawn has dulled senses. For example, he will no longer be able to savor the taste of food, wine (as AA does in his happy epilogue). The undead odor that will now exude from his body has returned. The sun that Astarion loved so much, and which is now killing him, is in many ways also a symbol of how the “bright world” rejects Astarion as something “foreign”. This bright, joyful, sunny, and light world in which there is no place for the likes of Astarion. Sure, a player can be on the side of the “bright world”, and everyone has their own beliefs, morals, etc., that's understandable. But it's unlikely that Astarion wants to accept that he has to retreat into darkness. And whatever the “artistic intent” may be, on the facts, it looks the way it looks in the game. And on the facts, a good ending for Astarion is the Ascension. The fact that he is no longer hungry or in need of a tadpole is far more important to me (and consequently to my Tav) than the fact that Astarion has decided to call me a pet (oops, trouble!). When on the one hand - “ spawn forever”, hunger, burning, vulnerability, depression and so on, and on the other “scarecrows” with “relationship inequality”, especially since all this “inequality” before the advent of kissing patch 6, consisted in the opportunity to admire playful Astarion, who demonstrated deep, strong affection and love.
He breaks up with you if you don't want to become a spawn, which I think if he truly cared for you, he wouldn't do.
He breaks up because he doesn't want to be around the mortal Tav, he doesn't want to go through the suffering of their deaths in the future. Astarion wants to give the gift of eternity to his consort, I think that's very caring.
He literally thinks you're degrading yourself by staying with him as an Ascendant.
Astarion thinks this way because of his past traumas, pain and humiliation, he needs a lot more time to heal and accept himself. And we also leave him with these thoughts because of the fact that we have a rails scene at this point, and the only check in the game, passing that has no result, no additional lines, no way to talk to him about it. It's literally rails, and the player is forced to go along with it because they have no choice. It doesn't look like Astarion's attitude, but rather that the author of the scene has decided to forget about such a concept as roleplay and rigidly impose their vision without giving the player any way to dodge it. The only option for me to roleplay in any way at this point is to skip the check and not pass it.
You are my consort, and I will see you living the very best life. Even if you don't appreciate it.
Yes, he says this to the Tav who doesn't truly love him, but wants freedom from him and doesn't appreciate him. That said, ab**ing someone who genuinely loves, understands and supports him ( like in patch 6) is of course his story as written. Extremely poorly written, in that case. In all my life and all my gaming experience, I've never encountered worse writing, alas.
These are clearly signs of Ascended Astarion trying to isolate the player, which is a sign of
emotional abuse.Meaning? Astarion goes to this party and lets the player socialize with former companions. Even if the player wants to spend more time with Astarion himself and will approach him ten times, Astarion will send the player to socialize with others. And, I apologize, but what does a link to an article on domestic psychology have to do with the plot of BG3? It's curious, sure, and conjures up fantasies about an AI waifu Astarion to whom I can surrender all my passwords (one of the article's points) and finally stop losing them, but still, it doesn't correlate with BG3 at all, much less with the horrible faces for Tav in kissing. What correlates well with them, though, is this article here (not with the plot of BG3, but specifically with the kissing scenes of patch 6). Under spoiler:
Video Games and Sexual Violence: How Pervasive is Sexual Assault in Video Games?"Quote Jose Zagal, professor in the University of Utah’s Entertainment Arts & Engineering (EAE) program who teaches the course “Ethics in Video Games.”:
“There is no fundamental reason to say that a game cannot or should never include or portray sexual assault. That said, creators need to treat such inclusion or portrayal with a great deal of care, tact, mindfulness and positive intentionality. Including sexual assault to titillate or shock is irresponsible and unethical.”
Certainly no care, much less tact, mindfulness and positive intent was demonstrated by Patch 6. People were simply traumatized, shocked, offended and upset. The goal of causing shock (and pain, I would add for myself) to the player is rightly called irresponsible and unethical by the professor. About such a goal as satisfying the non-con audience, I don't think it's anything bad, it just needs to not be done at the expense of other players who are unfamiliar with the theme, and don't want to experience similar feelings, and give all the necessary warnings, ratings, etc.
The "always be watching" is an additional threat on top of that; no matter where the player goes, Astarion is always going to be watching out for them in case they say something wrong.
A very unusual headcanon. It's your personal interpretation. A lot of people really like this line of Astarion, it shows his love, the attention he gives to Tav. Even when socializing with other companions, you can think of Astarion watching, meaning he's still around, and rejoice in that. The adorable bat that often stops its flight near Tav is also very cute, and sort of hints at the possibility of being together, even while doing different things.
Ascended Astarion's original kisses were good because it shows the player how big of a mistake they made (if they ignored the several massive red flags along the way).
Did the player make a mistake? Bought a BG3 game at release? Or at the time of EA? Sorry, there was no talk of extreme video content when I bought the game. There was nothing to suggest trouble at all, lol. And try to force the player into this:
Scaring them away with some red flags from happily passing like a wolf on the hunt, well, I still hope Larian didn't want to do just that. And the patch 6 kisses are not the “original Ascended Astarion kisses” (there were wonderful patch 5 kisses before that). And if you're referring to the trendy theme of “red flags” for relationships, well, first of all, for many of us, “flags” are of the Ascended Astarion are quite green, and some may even be gold. And speaking of emotional abuse, there are quite a few very, very “red” flags in Tav's behavior towards Spawn:
1. Manipulation. Tav manipulates Astarion into giving up what he really wants - the healing that the ritual will give him. If you fail the Persuasion check for this manipulation, Astarion will say how he feels about it, and how he “wants” the kind of fate Tav wishes for him.
2. Astarion suffers a lot in the scene of abandoning the ritual. It's a very heavy scene that just can't be watched without tears. Astarion cries if he doesn't ascend because he will be hit not only with the pain and grief of what has been taken from him, but also with the realization that nothing can be taken back. From the realization of the future that awaits him. Tav doesn't care. No reaction to it.
3. Tav specifically doesn't care about the state of Astarion at all. Not a single attempt to find not that healing, even at least some artifact to protect him from the sun. Tav is quietly going about his other, “more important” business and having fun.
4. Tav's behavior in the graveyard seems somehow not particularly empathic, despite what Astarion tells them. Well, that's okay, we also have terrible post-Ascension dialog where I have to exclusively “want to become a vampire” because otherwise I have to “want his body” and spit on all of Astarion's past traumas.
5. The scene at the docks is the apotheosis and culmination of the embodiment of the worst partner behavior example in the relationship. Tav doesn't care about Astarion specifically.
And additional possibilities - you can get Astarion into a “threesome” with Halsin (the scene where the un-ascended Astarion is in a brothel with Halsin is just awful and nothing will happen to the player for it). You can cheat on him with Mizora. You can abandon him at the end of the game - abandon a man who has been through so much pain and needs intimacy so badly, who has trusted someone for the first time to his misfortune. Yes, these are all optional extras, but in using them, no one is going to “show the player” how vile their Tav's behavior is, at least not in the way they tried to “show” to those players who never did anything wrong to Astarion in their entire playthrough.
Where then are the appropriate facial expressions for UA when he is in such a toxic relationship?
It's also very frustrating that players who want to see their Tav happy with the relationship had a mod available; it would've been a great way for Larian to show off installing third party mods by using this mod as an example.
Players who want to play with “dead pigeon” already have a mod available (there's a link right in this thread). The violence is no “canon”, it's just violence, it's three scenes with appropriate content. It's not a “story”, it's someone's specific fantasy that has no place in the official version of a game that positions itself as a fun M-rated RPG.
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