Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

Sereda2, what a brilliant post, it was a pleasure to read. Thank you so much.

I was one of the people who gave massive feedback for Patch 6 changes by creating a resonant survey. I love that Larian listens to their players and that they fixed the mistake of removing the room for roleplay that they made before.

Ascended Astarion will always be my choice and I find his and Tav's love story utterly beautiful and inspiring.

I am a fan of both UA and AA, personally I do like the new change because before the old AA's facial expressions were somewhat triggering/sickening for me especially if I was roleplaying as my durge enjoying it. Although I do agree the facial expressions could be a little more neutral, I don't think they should make this a huge priority at the moment. Thankfully we have mods to fix this if you're playing on pc and eventually when it comes to console. I do think them making it optional could be a good idea but maybe in the future? No matter what they do for those Astarion kisses they will be damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I want to be clear I do understand where people are coming from and how this new version could very much so be triggering NOW for them. But, I'm not sure how much resources it would cost for them to revamp it once again or to make it optional, but I'd much rather get bug fixes, give UA a new kiss, and to give all the companions a unique last kiss before the end of the game, and GIVE redeemed durge better companion reactions especially from their love interest.

Please don't take this the wrong way either because I'm trying not to be against you! <3

Why would Larian be damned if they give us an option to choose? It will only be fair to all sides.
I very much doubt that 100% all the mods will be available for consoles. So it's not a given that this particular mod will be.
Nobody is asking to remake this scene again. Literally, BOTH animations already exist. People only ask for an option to choose. It's literally one boolean flag in the code, nothing more.

This thread was created for those who are unhappy with the new animations and ask for an option. Nobody is asking to take happy faces away from you, so I find it very strage that people with different opinion come here and argue with our request. We have as much right for our own RP as you have your right to be disappointed with scared faces. You provided your feedback, Larian did as you asked, now, please, let us speak our opinion and our feelings on the matter.

I want to make it clear once again, I AGREE with OP and that the kisses should be made more neutral because I am not a fan of my durge smiling during the kneel kiss , I WISH it was a little more neutral for that AND that we should be given a choice of how you want it. But AGAIN we don't know how much resources they put in for this. I fully support if they eventually make this a thing.

I was honestly surprised by the smiling for the kneel too. I had given feedback for neutral faces, and the first preview we got was fairly neutral. If the smile during the kneel is what bothers people, I wouldn't mind losing that. But I also play fairly stoic characters so grinning would never be my PC's face to begin with. So just not having the kneel smile would be a fine compromise.

I don't agree with it being a choice unless every companion gets a choice. Given expressions have changed for a lot of things. Even just Astarion's. It wouldn't be fair to give that just to Astarion and not, say, DJ Shadowheart and Minthara. But also, quiet honestly, I think they should just leave Astarion alone at this point. All the discourse is wearing out the fandom imo. Just my take!

Other companions don't have romances with such extremely different fans' opinions on them. I don't see their fans being disappointed with the changes. So it's not the same at all.
Also, as I've already said million times, BOTH animations ALREADY EXIST. So let's not pretend it's a lot of work to do.
Also, it's not only about that smile. It's also about other little things: for example.

Although Sereda2 said it beautifully I guess I should also give my opinion now that the Patch 7 is launced. I hope all opinions are welcomed here like Flooter said.

As someone who have played with Ascended Astarion the most out of all the companion, I was very much against the scared faces because it robbed RP and made very little sense with his dialog to Tav. Some said it seemed like Astarion had some short time memory loss with how badly the kisses meshed with his personality. Astarion going from loving to abusive, and Tav from smiling to scared. And back again.

Although I need to play more with the Patch 7 version to really get a sense of my feelings, I think the new playful/neutral are perfectly done to allow for many different RP. There is no need for any change. To put it a bit on the edge, I know many wanted more happy faces too, but they are still happy to work with what we got in Patch 7. Should Larian also include a third option? Instead of a boolean we have a case/switch with Happy, Neutral and scared? What if someone wants another expression?

Having it somewhere inbetween is the best Larian could have done. Do not forget this is supposed to be a button players click on for a reward scene, more people will enjoy seeing playful/neutral expressions. Catering to the majority who goes that route makes sense to me.

This is exactly what I meant when I said Larian is damned if they do & damned if they don't. Someone is always going to want more, no matter what.

But I don't know, I just want everyone to be happy with the final product. And to make everything even.

Against.


Because it was a mistake that caused kissing, apparently originally intended as content for D/s, to turn into content showcasing the

*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***


The fact that Larian is positioning the Ascended Astarion's kissing scenes as D/s content can be told from the animation of those scenes, Adam Smith's words can also be mentioned: "We wanted it to feel authentic... I don't think sexuality should be controversial; different kinks, arousals, fetishes, whatever it might be... I think it's okay for things to be sexy." There are also plenty of options in the game to cater to different sexual preferences, sex in BG3 is a well-known topic that is regularly discussed in different media, and it makes more than sense that Larian decided to include an audience that likes the dynamic of D/s.


Astarion author Stephen Rooney has said that Ascension is not a “bad” ending for Astarion, it's his “evil” ending. Astarion is an inherently evil character, and in most classic RPGs, including BG1 and BG2, successfully completing an evil companion's quest is an evil act that does good for that very companion and possibly bad for some NPCs or some locale, generally the “world”. The “evil” ending for an “evil” character is the good ending for that character. All the facts in the game say so. Spawn's ending is terrible: Astarion is abruptly and painfully deceived, and rejected. He doesn't expect at first what happens, he's been walking in the sun before, and probably deep down he desperately hoped things would stay the same. And he burns and runs away while the others rejoice in their victory, including Tav, and while they celebrate, Astarion sits somewhere behind the crates at the dock, curled up in a lump, slowly healing his wounds. Not only that - hunger will haunt him forever. Dulled senses and feelings - a vampire spawn has dulled senses. For example, he will no longer be able to savor the taste of food, wine (as AA does in his happy epilogue). The undead odor that will now exude from his body has returned. The sun that Astarion loved so much, and which is now killing him, is in many ways also a symbol of how the “bright world” rejects Astarion as something “foreign”. This bright, joyful, sunny, and light world in which there is no place for the likes of Astarion. Sure, a player can be on the side of the “bright world”, and everyone has their own beliefs, morals, etc., that's understandable. But it's unlikely that Astarion wants to accept that he has to retreat into darkness. And whatever the “artistic intent” may be, on the facts, it looks the way it looks in the game. And on the facts, a good ending for Astarion is the Ascension. The fact that he is no longer hungry or in need of a tadpole is far more important to me (and consequently to my Tav) than the fact that Astarion has decided to call me a pet (oops, trouble!). When on the one hand - “ spawn forever”, hunger, burning, vulnerability, depression and so on, and on the other “scarecrows” with “relationship inequality”, especially since all this “inequality” before the advent of kissing patch 6, consisted in the opportunity to admire playful Astarion, who demonstrated deep, strong affection and love.


He breaks up because he doesn't want to be around the mortal Tav, he doesn't want to go through the suffering of their deaths in the future. Astarion wants to give the gift of eternity to his consort, I think that's very caring.


Astarion thinks this way because of his past traumas, pain and humiliation, he needs a lot more time to heal and accept himself. And we also leave him with these thoughts because of the fact that we have a rails scene at this point, and the only check in the game, passing that has no result, no additional lines, no way to talk to him about it. It's literally rails, and the player is forced to go along with it because they have no choice. It doesn't look like Astarion's attitude, but rather that the author of the scene has decided to forget about such a concept as roleplay and rigidly impose their vision without giving the player any way to dodge it. The only option for me to roleplay in any way at this point is to skip the check and not pass it.


Yes, he says this to the Tav who doesn't truly love him, but wants freedom from him and doesn't appreciate him. That said, ab**ing someone who genuinely loves, understands and supports him ( like in patch 6) is of course his story as written. Extremely poorly written, in that case. In all my life and all my gaming experience, I've never encountered worse writing, alas.


Meaning? Astarion goes to this party and lets the player socialize with former companions. Even if the player wants to spend more time with Astarion himself and will approach him ten times, Astarion will send the player to socialize with others. And, I apologize, but what does a link to an article on domestic psychology have to do with the plot of BG3? It's curious, sure, and conjures up fantasies about an AI waifu Astarion to whom I can surrender all my passwords (one of the article's points) and finally stop losing them, but still, it doesn't correlate with BG3 at all, much less with the horrible faces for Tav in kissing. What correlates well with them, though, is this article here (not with the plot of BG3, but specifically with the kissing scenes of patch 6). Under spoiler:



A very unusual headcanon. It's your personal interpretation. A lot of people really like this line of Astarion, it shows his love, the attention he gives to Tav. Even when socializing with other companions, you can think of Astarion watching, meaning he's still around, and rejoice in that. The adorable bat that often stops its flight near Tav is also very cute, and sort of hints at the possibility of being together, even while doing different things.


Did the player make a mistake? Bought a BG3 game at release? Or at the time of EA? Sorry, there was no talk of extreme video content when I bought the game. There was nothing to suggest trouble at all, lol. And try to force the player into this:


Scaring them away with some red flags from happily passing like a wolf on the hunt, well, I still hope Larian didn't want to do just that. And the patch 6 kisses are not the “original Ascended Astarion kisses” (there were wonderful patch 5 kisses before that). And if you're referring to the trendy theme of “red flags” for relationships, well, first of all, for many of us, “flags” are of the Ascended Astarion are quite green, and some may even be gold. And speaking of emotional abuse, there are quite a few very, very “red” flags in Tav's behavior towards Spawn:

1. Manipulation. Tav manipulates Astarion into giving up what he really wants - the healing that the ritual will give him. If you fail the Persuasion check for this manipulation, Astarion will say how he feels about it, and how he “wants” the kind of fate Tav wishes for him.

2. Astarion suffers a lot in the scene of abandoning the ritual. It's a very heavy scene that just can't be watched without tears. Astarion cries if he doesn't ascend because he will be hit not only with the pain and grief of what has been taken from him, but also with the realization that nothing can be taken back. From the realization of the future that awaits him. Tav doesn't care. No reaction to it.

3. Tav specifically doesn't care about the state of Astarion at all. Not a single attempt to find not that healing, even at least some artifact to protect him from the sun. Tav is quietly going about his other, “more important” business and having fun.

4. Tav's behavior in the graveyard seems somehow not particularly empathic, despite what Astarion tells them. Well, that's okay, we also have terrible post-Ascension dialog where I have to exclusively “want to become a vampire” because otherwise I have to “want his body” and spit on all of Astarion's past traumas.

5. The scene at the docks is the apotheosis and culmination of the embodiment of the worst partner behavior example in the relationship. Tav doesn't care about Astarion specifically.

And additional possibilities - you can get Astarion into a “threesome” with Halsin (the scene where the un-ascended Astarion is in a brothel with Halsin is just awful and nothing will happen to the player for it). You can cheat on him with Mizora. You can abandon him at the end of the game - abandon a man who has been through so much pain and needs intimacy so badly, who has trusted someone for the first time to his misfortune. Yes, these are all optional extras, but in using them, no one is going to “show the player” how vile their Tav's behavior is, at least not in the way they tried to “show” to those players who never did anything wrong to Astarion in their entire playthrough.

Where then are the appropriate facial expressions for UA when he is in such a toxic relationship?


Players who want to play with “dead pigeon” already have a mod available (there's a link right in this thread). The violence is no “canon”, it's just violence, it's three scenes with appropriate content. It's not a “story”, it's someone's specific fantasy that has no place in the official version of a game that positions itself as a fun M-rated RPG.

It's really not only about being happy or not. For a lot of people these new changed expressions are literally TRIGGERING (I confirm it as a SA survivor myself). To the point of not being able to play this route anymore.
I understand that this is only a game, but it will be such a shame if I can't play AA romance anymore just because Larian prioritized other people's RP over mine and also over their own original vision.
Because we all know that Larian's original vision was SCARED faces before fans asked for a change, not happy ones.

Since I ascended him recently to finally get my seduced-to-power ending (thank you evil Gale-ending, I love you), what goes most against the story is, that Astarion does not get some kind of backlash from performing the bite-kiss on our two bombs. I am only half joking, it would be very fun to have him retch a bit there.

I also want to add that I am strongly against making the faces more “neutral”. They are neutral as it is, it could have been done better at some points, but it's tolerable. The kneeling smile is done just perfectly! I really like it, and I absolutely do not want it to be replaced with something similar to what was in the gif in one of the announcements for patch 7. I also like the smile in the Bite kiss when Astarion pushes Tav away slightly. They both look playful now, I started to like that kiss, I rethought my attitude towards that act of pushing away, it stopped being excruciating. I couldn't stop sobbing like Astarion in the ritual rejection scene when I updated after patch 6 and saw that kiss. Now, thanks to good, rational and logical explanations from other forum members regarding Astarion's motives for this action from D/s's point of view, the fact that he doesn't feel contempt for Tav in this scene and, very importantly, thanks to my Tav's playful smile that matches perfectly with Astarion's grin, I no longer feel any emotional discomfort from this scene. I don't want more neutral faces, I can only play with smiling faces. These D/s scenes are still in some aspects a bit harsh for me, as a player who was not familiar with this theme before, and is playing D/s dynamics for the first time. Softening these scenes by adding a happy facial expression for Tav is necessary including for those players who Ascend Astarion for Astarion's sake and not for the dynamic itself. The option that came in patch 7 I like, suits me, and makes it possible for me to play with Astarion in a way that doesn't torture myself in the process. Larian, please leave the smiles on Tav's face! Don't make the faces more neutral! I can't speak to what expressions are more appropriate for the members of the BDSM community for whom these scenes were made, but for a “newbie”, happy faces are perceived much better than neutral faces would be perceived, and it's much easier to play that way. If a player has to vary their romantic preferences for the sake of their LI, then they need to make that “input” as easy and painless to perceive as possible, I think that's fair enough.

Valentine's Day present is scared faces? Do you know that the kiss on the knees was announced with Gale? and there was no sign that Gale was scared, no one could even imagine what awaited in patch 6, everyone was happy with this announcement until they found fear on the faces of their characters directly in the game. Larian could not have punished us like that on purpose. I think it was a mistake, which fortunately was corrected.

Marketing team =/= developers team.
And everyone makes mistakes.
Also, this game is not a dating sim. These characters have their own personality. They don't exist just to satisfy fans' wishes. Larian's own words about the ritual:
[img]https://imgur.com/a/FhNMGSV[/img]
(said by Adam Smith, by the way)

Larian has been very open about their opinion that AA is repeating Cazador. It's not punishment, because, again, this is not a dating simulator. This is their characterization of Ascended Astarion. He is repeating Cazador's rules. It's canon.

P.S. Also, in fact, I distinctly remember that Gale WAS scared in that advertising.

nly Tav can call Astarion Cazardor and that's rude. That's not a Larian opinion. Never announced something like that. Why are you misleading people?
What is said on the screenshot does not mean that Astarion is Cazador 2.0

Because this is canon confirmed first by Larian's writers: "horrible place", which means it's canon the Ritual is a bad thing for him.
Welch's opinion on the matter.
and the most important: Astarion's own confession that he wanted to be "just like Cazador". When he stays Spawn, he thanks Tav for talking him out of the ritual several times, he is extremely happy and says: "You saved me from myself" and admits he wanted to be "just like Cazador" and this is one the reasons he wanted to do the ritual. It's canon, yeah, absolutely.

(and not to mention the whole scene with the Vellioth skull)

I have to agree with you here. I didn't want to bring up my own baggage on this forum, but this change has affected me enough that I think I should. I love Astarion, BG3 is my favorite game, and seeing the new expressions completely killed my desire to test out patch 7. I didn't expect seeing the new expressions to trigger me so hard. I keep finding myself thinking back to it and crying and it's frankly really messed me up. If the faces were changed to increase player agency, what about -my- agency? The exact same argument applies here. But also, these kisses are extreme content and it's upsetting for me to see Tav so happy to be slapped/choked. To the point that I have to take a break from the game. It did not trigger me before. There's no way to please everyone, so I don't know why people are arguing against having options.

I agree with what you said Yume! I think we should have the options. For me personally the old animations really triggered me badly but the new ones don't. BUT I know it is triggering for others. I think giving the option is honestly the best idea for everyone. Everyone is different which is why it is so difficult with his particular kisses ://

Just have Larian add the NIghtingale mod (that now have a version that reverts to Patch 6 kisses as well as happy ones) to console and everyone can choose the version that they enjoy the most to watch.

I also want to add my opinion to this topic, since Larian Studios should see how many people actually hold some opinions. I don't want to blame specific forum members, but it seems like there is some fake accounts, which upsets me. I saw what the victims of SA said about kissing and what kind of rp they are running. And I also have questions about why they are running rp on their trigger topic. Doesn't it add discomfort to your life and the game?
I, like probably many fans of the ascended Astarion, used to consider spawn route as something good, and the ascended one abusive, because many people said so. But when I saw the ascended Astarion in the game myself, I did not notice a hint of abuse. I've been playing since launch and I know what I'm talking about. I've been a victim of constant abuse myself, but I survived it and I know what it looks like. I haven't seen abuse in Ascended Astarion for 5 patches. I saw him as a happy vampire lord, loving and caring, but patch 6 disappointed me from the moment they posted the kneeling kiss scene om Twitter.
They created something that didn’t fit into my vision of the character in any way, although I never considered Astarion as “kind” or “not problematic” partner (neither a spawn, nor a lord). I can’t say it "ruined my RP", because some writers have long deprived me of a choice in the scene on the night after the ascension. It was not Astarion who did this, but the writer who was supposed to give me a choice. However, I closed my eyes to it, because it was a small detail in the overall romance that suited me. And now, a year after the release of the game and the beginning of my love for Astarion, I see it. I acknowledge other people's opinions and desires. We all have the right to have them and to make requests too, but I don't like it when people use manipulation to draw attention to their personal problems that doesn't concern the majority.
Why do I think it's not worth even introducing a choice of reactions, but rather leaving a happy one?
1. When the player chooses to ascend Astarion for the first time, they doesn't know what will happen next. Yes, Tav can say "you will become the next Cazador", but this doesn’t mean the soul transfer or a complete change of personality. Cazador was a powerful lord, and Astarion was going to take his place at the beginning of the game. Everyone can play with this line as they want, but my logic is supported by facts from the game. If Tav doesn't say that phrase, then being "the second Сazador" isn't a bad thing, because this phrase is aimed at preventing Astarion from coming to power and not being engulfed by it (as happens with influential people).
2. When the player has ascended Astarion, he still has a choice of lines: both positive and negative. This doesn’t apply to some moments in the night scene, which saddens me.
3. If the player agrees to become Astarion's spawn, this means that they wants to continue the romance. The player can roleplay either submission to some manipulation, or sincere love.
4. In romance, the player can speak positively towards Astarion again, playing their role, but the victim of abuse will not ask for a kiss from an unpleasant person (if Tav realized their mistake). A person in love will be happy to kiss their loved one in any case. The victim of manipulation will also be happy, because they will not understand that something is wrong.
5. This is a love story still. Of course, the romance can be both happy and not, but usually it becomes clear in the end. There are very few unhappy options for Tav in the epilogue, only 1 out of 4. The ending for Tav is mostly happy, which hints that the romance is also happy. Then there is no point in making an unhappy romance. In addition, there is no point in making unhappy gameplay for tens of hours, because most people want to enjoy the game.
6. As a result, we have a very few options to roleplay as an unhappy Tav in romance. And in some of the options Tav even can end this relationship instead of enduring it which further reduces the number of unhappy Tavs.
7. If we introduce an unhappy option for a romance with one character, then it should be the same with others. There should be different kisses and different reactions to them for everyone, if we require RP diversity. But this is a lot of work and is not beneficial for Larian. If they make a choice for Astarion, it would be unfair and selfish to take away other players' choices, but somehow I don't see people starting threads about it.
So I think those who are unhappy with Larian's decision would be better off using the mod. I think the studio knows how many people wanted kisses with happy faces and why, so they made this decision. And I want to thank them for that.

So I think that those who are unhappy with Larian's decision would be better off using a new mod for unhappy faces. I think Larian Studios knows how many people wanted kisses with happy facial expressions and why, so they made that decision. And I want to thank them for that decision.