(sorry had to read again to make sure I didnt miss anything)

Btw, before I start. I started writing this like a week ago, before finding out about the forum. Then I had To keep editing it while waiting for my account to be verified (took some days for some reason) and I kept reading the new posts here. So to my knowledge this should include and take into consideration everything up to this point. I’ve gone over this hundreds of times, I can probably recite everything by heart, trying to delete any notion of value to the character of Astarion to not offend anyone and be as neutral as I can be. I am NOT saying what I say goes and that I have any right to dictate your feelings, I am just trying to show each side and maybe hopefully get the other side to understand.

Hi OP, hi everyone. Thanks for opening the thread (again). First, I am a big fan of Astarion as a whole, AA very much included. I am in no way an AA hater, i like the guy, okay? I am incredibly thankful to Larian for the game and continued support and patches. However, Larian made an incredibly complicated and complex character which is why he does deserve the attention he gets but it also comes with its own complications. It’s not a simple character or romance anymore, so by wanting to make a complex character, this is the outcome now. So this is something that needs to be addressed. Believe me when I say, when patch 7 came out and I saw the new kisses, to say that I was saddened is an understatement. HOWEVER, as I will go into later, after long discussions, I am not opposed to patch 7 and I think we ALL can have what we want (if larian makes a minute change in the next hotfix, that is)

I feel like this needs to be highlighted, so excuse me for screaming: I AM NOT AGAINST PATCH 7 AND I AM NOT AGAINST PATCH 6. I AM NOT TRYING TO INSULT ANYONE HERE. WE ALL WANT THE SAME THING, TO PLAY THE GAME AND GET THE AA ROMANCE EACH OF US WANTS. If anything in this post offends you, it was not my intention and I apologize. Please imagine everything I say in the voice of a very nice first grade teacher who still has faith in humanity. I am not trying to create a “us vs them” mentality here. We can talk about it in a civil manner, i don’t want to fight, alright? So I would appreciate the same amount of hostility towards me, as I have towards you: ZERO. Everything I say I try to convey without any evaluation as in “he changed for the better or for the worse”. I will also NOT refer to anything AA does as abusive, i realize that to some it may be clear abuse, to others it isn’t clear, and to others it’s not at all. I want to be neutral so I will just refer to it as “changed” or “different” compared to his behavior prior to ascension, you can interpret his behavior however you want, but he DID change.

When patch 6 came out, there were amazing discussions over on reddit of all places, can you believe that? Now that patch 7 came out, new discussions were added. All of them great, many ideas and thoughts were shared in a civil manner which everyone really appreciated. Nonetheless this needs to be addressed and I hope I can clearly communicate the general sentiment from those discussions going forward. Again, this is not purely a “my opinion Is fact” thing, this is a general sentiment A LOT of people shared their opinions on, from both sides (patch 7 supporters and patch 6 supporters)

While I think this needs to be a DISCUSSION, rather than a “us vs them” thing, we all love Astarion at the end of the day, personally I think it would not be leading to any good solution if this ends in a fight. We can have a civil discussion but I personally will not entertain any attacks against me personally however much I would like to, actually. And I would urge everyone to stop personal attacks, this will help nobody and only lead to the thread being locked. I love fighting and making my point heard, but what I love much much more is speaking about things like adults. I am a very passionate person, especially about this. I do like a good discussion, but one on neutral grounds.

The following is NOT my opinion, unless I say it is, while I do share some biases with either side, this is not purely my stance on the whole matter. Because only my opinion doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. This is about everyone being able to enjoy the game. And as it stands now, unfortunately only one side can enjoy it while the other is alienated, like it was before but the other way around.

About AA story and romance: pre patch 6 kisses, many interpreted his changed behavior as being worse than UA because of the drastic change. And when someone drastically changes from being gentle and soft, most of the time they change to the opposite, hence changing to be more rough and dominant. Some interpreted it as being abusive, which was kind of confirmed with the patch 6 kisses in which tav looked shocked. But I see how his behavior can be interpreted in different ways. Him wanting to turn Tav into a spawn can be seen as him wanting to control them, but also that he wants his partner to live forever like himself. I think what many get hung up on is his reaction to some things. Like trying to break up with him. He is angry and aggressive, not like UA in a “oh I thought we had something special, what can I do better?”kind of way, even devnotes say he is arrogant in that situation. So the fact that he is intimidating and you can back out of the break up, just doesn’t sit right with people, hence why many believed this is where larian was going with AA and patch 6 confirmed that view. Same issue in the post-game tavern scene, you can’t break up which is why many interpreted it as him being able to control Tav since the tadpoles are gone, interpretation being confirmed in the epilogue when Tav asks for freedom and he gets upset - because apparently Tav had asked before. Same thing with the turning night, not wanting to become a spawn is a valid reaction, and his anger just brings up difficult feelings for people. On the same note, when you agree to be turned, the only way he will actually do it is if Tav kneels before him. Why couldn’t he turn Tav without the need to kneel? But if you never want to break up with him, of course you don’t see it this way. Also his dialogue a few days after breaking up, he says his love would’ve ruined Tav. Interpretations can be varied, just like basically everything about Astarion. There are some instances where it’s a bit hard to interpret “good” intentions in his AA lines. But there are also some that can be interpreted as “bad” in his pre-ritual UA lines, especially act1 where he is still trying to gain your trust. Like I said, highly complex character with nothing much to go off of other than personal interpretations, which judging by the discussion here, the same scene can be interpreted in various different ways. Personally I can’t help but feel a little lost at what larian was trying to do with AA. They must have had their reasons to implement patch 6 in the first place. So I just don’t understand why they are going back on that decision now, and in such an extreme manner, as in going from shock to enthusiasm, and not something softer. Also, I do not understand where the notion of rape came from here. Even with patch 6 kisses personally I never took AA as a rapist, rougher, sure, but going all the way there is too much. So I will not be addressing or entertaining this particular narrative going forward, as I quite frankly do not see the point and this has never, to my knowledge, been brought up in SERIOUS discussion about Astarion in general (apart from some guys saying Astarion bit their character without consent, which is irrelevant here).

Reading on the other thread and having the discussions on reddit, I understand their (as in patch 7 supporters) point. There is definitely space for a HEAD CANON(!) for tav to be happy in the relationship. Be it because violence is all they know so they take that sentiment into the relationship, or because they are just into it, whatever the reason may be, all is fine. It doesn’t matter much, honestly. It is a HC. Their HC doesn’t take away from mine or yours, and ours doesn’t take away from theirs (however much it is claimed it does on both sides), we cannot fault them for wanting a representation of their feelings in the game, HOWEVER they also have to realize patch 6 supporters want the same thing. There is a difference between UA and AA, you absolutely cannot deny that. The argument that Selunite and Shar Shadowheart didn’t get different kisses depending on the route Shad is taking, while this is true, Shad’s personality doesn’t change. She still loves tav, even going so far as to give Shar less space in her heart because of tav. Aside from that, Tav doesn’t have some sort of extreme reaction to Shad kissing them, they just smile softly, like all other companions AND UA also. AA is a wholly different person from UA, he even says so himself. If you think he still loves Tav, then that’s your narrative. I do believe he still loves Tav, too, in a different way though. While of course, having Ten thousand different kisses for everyone would be nice, this is not a dating-sim, and UA vs AA Just happens to be pretty much the biggest change a character goes through in this game. So it makes sense to have different relationship dynamics between the two. The fact that his voice lines change is reason enough to claim that he did change. Without adding any value if it’s for better or worse, you cannot deny that he did change.

This is my personal take, feel free to ignore if you’re going to reply: To the point of “my evil durge wouldn’t be scared of him” – why would they not be? Your partner changed to a different person before your very eyes, at the very least tav would be shocked to see it. And the first time kissing him after being turned into a spawn would most certainly be shocking in comparison to the kisses until that point, assuming he is still like pre-ritual Astarion during the turning night, or something in between UA and AA. If you decide that your tav is into it afterwards, please be my guest. That HC doesn’t change the changed behavior AA is portraying. And if tav is into that, they can enjoy it. I do totally see that there is potential for Tav / Durge to be happy with his changed demeanor and behavior. He is more dominant, more assertive, more confident, there is definitely appeal in that, no matter if you play and good or evil character.

Back to general opinions: the Funny, and upsetting, thing is, some who support the smiling facial expression are still upset though and some are still using the mod. Why? “patch 7 facial expression is too neutral” – it is not. Categorically untrue. Tav is enthusiastically smiling and flirting (look at their eyes, there is nothing but playfulness). This is comparing patch 7 to the smiling mod which made tav just look even happier. I was messaged about this by someone who has been using the mod and wanted to tell me “the new one is way more neutral” but then they realized that they were comparing it to the mod and hadn’t seen the in-game expressions in forever. So yes, comparatively to the mod, patch 7 is more tame. But in and of itself, it definitely is not. Discussions on the other thread, and according to patch 7 supporters on Reddit, now include suggestions to change the animations themselves, not just facial expression, because “tav still looks upset when he slaps them”. Whether or not he slaps Tav, or just pushes their face away (as some said on here), you can interpret that in different ways. Whether or not it’s really a slap or just a playful push to say “no no you’ve had enough, darling”, it is a powerplay, which can be problematic or appealing, depending on your interpretation of the movement. But since AA and UA are so different, You cannot have AA and then demand tender love. You don’t go to AA for tender love. You go to him for the slaps and bites. That’s what he does. Whether you see it as degrading or not is a different topic and up to your interpretation, but that is his canon romance: slaps, bites, sweet nothings in a sexy tone. And tav (and player) can enjoy that as much as they want, it doesn’t take away from any other HC, but does respect the canon of his character. This is why we romance him after all, no? Otherwise you would just go spawn route. The kiss animations need to be drastically different from UA because his character undergoes a drastic change.

Some of the now Patch 7 supporters were upset at patch 6, and wanted it changed. Absolutely Understandable. But when patch 6 supporters want the same thing, or agree on a compromise, they get upset and play the “astarion already gets so much attention we don’t need to change anything any more” card, while knowing that this will alienate a lot of players, and outright saying so (“this is what AA haters get” is a sentence I hoped I’d never have to read, but did unfortunately more than once or twice)

those who are in support of patch 6 facial expressions want a compromise, Patch 7 supporters don’t for the most part, and this is upsetting for multiple reasons. I get that they have their HC, I also have mine. Doesn’t change the canon of the character. Someone on reddit correctly pointed out that there is no canon in the game story-wise, but there is very much is character-wise. This is a different relationship dynamic from UA, all you can do as a player is make your tav take it enthusiastically (and be into it, hence smiling), be scared and stay (interpreting(!) it as abusive, because that is how a lot of abusive relationships work - btw a lot of patch 7 supporters also interpret it as abusive and still want smiling Tav, you can interpret his behavior as you will) or leave. Which is why I am not upset that patch 7 facial expressions were ADDED, but it is extremely upsetting that the enthusiastic smile is made the default and hence canon for everyone.

And if patch 6 is taking away player agency, so does patch 7.

I absolutely cannot understand how the argument here is “we want patch 7 kisses because patch 6 took away player agency” when patch 7 does the exact same thing in the opposite direction. You cannot stand here and tell me it doesn’t. Tav can enjoy the rough relationship, they can also be scared and stay, they can also leave. I totally understand that you want your “my tav would enjoy it” HC and narrative, others want the “tav was blinded by love and cant leave now (for whatever reason)” narrative. I don’t understand how you can be upset that “patch 6 took something from you” and not see parallels and continue the same treatment you were upset over yourselves. We should ALL try to understand each other’s POV here.

What many also found incredibly disingenuous is the diminishing of SA survivors, unfortunately mainly coming from patch 7 supporters, but definitely present on both sides. One may be triggered by patch 6, understandably so. Another might be triggered by patch 7, absolutely understandable as well. One does not take away from the other. And yet for some reason, I keep reading “well it doesn’t trigger me so we should keep patch X”, that is incredibly awful to say to someone who went through a similar situation and only wants the same thing as you: enjoy the game. Arguing that “you can use the mod to revert it back to patch 6” is the same as “you already had a mod for smiling Tav”, it doesn’t help anyone. And going one way or the other, is both not good. Some people don’t want to mod, some can’t. Only because mods are available, doesn’t mean they can be used by any person. Saying “don’t play then” is an incredibly mean thing to say to someone as well when you share the same interest that everyone just wants to enjoy. Also, this is about what is canon, as in what is IN the game and not modded into the game. And I understand that it must have sucked to have something in patch 6 that a group of people didn’t agree with, but now we have the same issue again. So you should be understanding towards the other side now, too. Someone pointed out that they can use a mod (when it comes to console) but they can’t enjoy it because it won’t be canon in the game. What also came up in discussion a lot, not by just one person, is that BECAUSE players are a SA survivor, they romance AA BECAUSE of his relationship dynamic WITH patch 6 facial expressions (interpreting the relationship as unbalanced and somewhat abusive). They said it helps them heal and they can play out a fantasy of Tav being scared, because it made them realize that it’s okay to be scared. I understand that it’s the same thing for SA survivors who like patch 7 and they would be highly uncomfortable with patch 6. It goes both ways here.

So some suggestions that came up on Reddit, and here as I saw, are for the facial expression to be determined by dialogue. I browsed through the dialogue tree to find possible points to add the flag. Mind you, this is by no means the definitive answer, just a suggestion that I found makes sense.

Regarding the dialogue with him post ascension, where he suggests Tav being turned to a spawn, since agreeing is the only way to keep the romance, I don’t think the flag should be placed anywhere here. Even saying “you are starting to scare me” or something similar doesn’t mean much in that instance because they still have to agree and wont know the outcome yet, they may enjoy it after all. so When tav does agree to be turned, personally I think this is also not a good point to add it because of the following reasons:
1. With the “make it hurt” dialogue he only bites tavs neck.
2. With the “be gentle” dialogue he bites the wrist first, then the neck.
Personally I take it as more hurtful to bleed from two places, so him disregarding the wish for him to be gentle should flag the patch 6 shocked face for tav, which is the opposite of what we expect and would want I assume. Also as someone mentioned here (or the other thread, sorry can’t remember), only because they chose one or the other, doesn’t mean they can’t enjoy the one they didn’t choose with a different Tav.

So dialogue flags should be placed after tav turns into a spawn, preferably before tav can kiss him as to not show the “wrong” facial expression to the player that they do not want. The morning after you get a long dialogue with no option to ask for a kiss yet. For example this dialogue tree, you always end up here and have the options:
1. “I don’t trust the brain” -> tav does not believe in AA vision of taking over the brain -> patch 6 shocked face
2. “isn’t it enough to have each other?” -> tav wondering if AA is even still on their side -> patch 6 shocked face
3. “if the chosen could subdue it (the brain), so can we. We will rule together” -> tav is on AA’s side, ready to conquer the world together -> patch 7 smiling face
4. “so one tyrant replaces another” -> tav is unsure about AA -> patch 6 shocked face

If (3) is chosen first, face could be changed by trying to break up
5. Trying to break up, backing out due to intimidation -> patch 6 shocked face

(I realize there is only one option to get the patch 7 facial expression but I don’t see any other way for tav to be enjoying it without being fully 100% on his side, which is only option 3. Of course, it is difficult to assume the tone in which each line is said, but 3 is clear. He wants the brain, and tav supports him. I believe there needs to be an enthusiastic “yes I am on your side” type of option for the patch 7 faces to make sense and hence trigger correctly and option 3 seems perfect. Of course just because you back him up here, doesn’t mean you have to really take over the brain)

A different approach might be one extra option when asking for a kiss (or only the first kiss):
6. choosing between “could *I* kiss you?” -> patch 6 shocked face because AA kisses tav, which they didn’t expect and “I want *you* to kiss me” -> patch 7 smiling face because AA kisses tav like they asked – for this its just one more clickable line in the dialogue and not a new voice line and you could have both facial expressions at any time, changing between them instead of locking you into just one, so you can always just choose the one you want (or only have to choose the first time)

I saw the concern of meta-gaming mentioned here. I don’t think flagging dialogue for this is any more meta-gaming than choosing the right dialogues to gain approval quicker or knowing to choose to hug him to keep the romance in act 2. Or even more so, knowing NOT to choose to sleep with him in act 2 as I saw multiple(!) fans asking if they misinterpreted the dialogue choice and were surprised that Astarion broke up the next day.

In general i think both facial expressions in patch 6 AND patch 7 are too extreme and both would do good with some minor tweaking.


There is a solution that will make everyone happy and not alienate any player. I hope we can come to an agreement. I understand it’s asking larian to change something AGAIN, and it having to do with Astarion AGAIN. I’d also rather not argue about this, but Astarion is a complex character, maybe the most complex out of everyone, so there cannot be a simple solution of keeping one or the other and alienating players.

On a personal note, so you can take it or leave it. When community update 28 showed the changed facial expression, I was okay with the face shown in the gif because I personally felt it was a neutral expression, leaving more room for RP. i could have totally lived with that. But we got something different which is upsetting in and of itself. Judging by the discourse though, none of the parties involved would’ve been truly happy with that face either. For patch 7 supporters it would’ve been too neutral, for patch 6 supporters it would’ve taken away the face the grew to enjoy. Nobody would’ve been happy, which is not good. With patch 6 apparently only one side was happy, now with patch 7 only the other is happy. There needs to be a middle ground so everyone can be happy. And it honestly sucks that some are willing to die on this hill to keep either one of the patches when our goal should be to get everyone happy. And it sucks that all of this makes it look like Astarion fans can never be satisfied, but this is the result of building a highly complex and incredibly loved character. Personally I do enjoy AA (with patch 6) a lot for a tragic romance in which Tav thought the ritual would make him happy, but instead it changed him to the point that Tav doesn’t know what to do but stays with him because they still love him. That is my personal(!) way how I played with AA before. But I admit I am intrigued with tav and him taking over the world together in which patch 6 kisses wouldn’t really fit. But patch 7 also doesn’t fit into that for me either because of how extreme I feel the facial expression is. Again, totally my opinion here. For me personally both are too extreme.

So, I hope I was able to make both sides heard. I really tried. I do appreciate discourse, but I will not tolerate personal attacks.