Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

absolutely noncon should not be included (canonically) with a companion. haarlep is a different story in my opinion so its irrelevant here. but just because tav's expressions shows them shocked, i dont think you can assume its for noncon narrative. personally, when patch 6 came out i found it very fitting for my own game. as a side note to explain, i will quickly run through my narrative for the game just to make it clear why i found it fitting: my durge wasnt a murder hobo but very dark grey leaning. even before astarion finished the ritual she was incredibly powerful and basically the most powerful being they have met thus far. so suddenly taking the more submissive role between her and AA was shocking and she just didnt know what to do. nothing like noncon or similar, just the sudden change in dynamic between them, thats all. and in this dynamic patch 7 would not fit for me personally. it wasnt about her enjoying it or not, it was just new for her that she was supposed to submit to someone in public. like i said, i would have preferred patch 6 to be a bit less extreme, but it did fit my narrative.



personally, like i said in my long post, i can see it from both sides. because there is no slap sound i think it makes it less clear. but if i think of the movements in the context of him belittling tav, it does seem like a slap or at least a push in a non sexy way, almost as to say "I (AA) have had enough, i dont need more from you" disregarding what tav wants, because they do lean over for another kiss. on the other hand i can totally see it as a playful "thats enough for now, we shall continue this later in private" gesture. same with the choking move. on one hand, he is vampire of course he looks at the neck, neck kisses are nice. on the other hand, it may be seen as him admiring the bite marks he left as a sign of ownership or some-such. one narrative doesnt take away from any other. but personally i dont think its about dark romance, my durge run was a dark romance and it didnt require tav to smile. both can be dark romance.

my main point is still the fact that 1. people are getting triggered by both patches so one should not be in the game without the option of the other (without mods) and 2. more options are always good, why limit ourselves?
both patches can be played in different ways

@Blue I agree with you that Harleep is not an apt or strong comparison. It's an entirely different thing imo. I wouldn't compare them.

Given there are also players on here, on both sides, even, saying the kisses themselves are triggering, if we're speaking of a toggle, would it not make the most sense to toggle kisses themselves? Make it hurt in dialogue leading to the patch 7 kisses, be gentle on dialogue leading to the patch 5 kiss? Just throwing that out as a thought.

this is not about this though. i think we are getting further and further away from the original point. at least one i tried to make. its not about other situations, content warning or not. this is specifically about the AA romance.
the animations of his kisses are not good or bad inherently, they just are animations that were added for him. the problem is putting a facial expression on tav canonically, meaning you cant change the canon of your own game in a way that makes sense for you. tav can absolutely enjoy it, but they can also be shocked at the suddenly different kisses. it doesnt mean they are scared of him, in that case i would hope youd just break up. but you can definitely be uncomfortable and still stay with him. i dont think that just because tav is with AA they HAVE to enjoy it, they can totally have different feelings towards it and i think this should be represented in the game.

I don't see how we are getting further from the original point. Because people here say they are against adding an option to have "Scared faces" because there can be no content warning for this.
And with Haarlep example: he is still a potentially very triggering content. It this sense it doesn't matter that he is not a companion. He can still be triggering for a lot of people.
So I don't see how your post contradicts mine. I'm basically talking about the same thing that we should have an option to choose.

They changed it because it makes money even if the behavior is statistically proven to be harmful.

if you mean the make it hurt / be gentle options you get in the night he turns tav to a spawn, personally i would not put a flag there. i explained it earlier, but personally i think the dialogue is misleading. for me personally, "be gentle" option is arguably more painful to be bitten in the wrist first and then the neck, instead of only the neck. it can be interpreted differently of course, but that but this is how i feel about the scene and i am sure many others do too.

personally i would not want to revert back all the way to patch 5. i think it is important for UA and AA to have different animations and the difference should be how tav reacts. i think the better solution would be to have two options past the "can we talk about us" option, something like "may i kiss you" which would trigger patch 6 (again, not scared, but tav asked if THEY could kiss him and instead Astarion approaches them, which just surprised them), or "i want you to kiss me" triggering patch 7 (tav asks confidently for a kiss which astarion does equally confidently). i just watched my recordings from patch 5 AA and it just doesnt look right, i find personally.

i understand that you dont want to see the shocked face on tav because you just dont see astarion that way. i want to be clear, tavs shocked face does not equal noncon or abuse, i also dont agree with the term that has been used of "face of horror", you can just as much interpret it as surprise (like my durge). but like mentioned plenty of times, its just over the top in general. but this is only between patch 6 and 7, patch 5 has nothing to do with this right now.

maybe a true face of surprise, big eyes, a quick breath, would have been perfect? you could interpret it as surprise at the sudden confidence and find it irresistible for tav, or not. but at this point we really cant ask larian to make yet another face animation.

edit: even in patch 6, you can see that tav is reaching for him, once their lips touch tav is totally into it. same with the "slap" kiss, they reach out for another kiss before astarion turns them away (in whatever way you want to interpret that), tav is into the kisses in general, i think its just the movement leading up to it that surprised them in patch 6. in patch 7 they just play along, flirty playful eyes etc.

I actually really like patch 7 for that exact reason. The little looks of shock and momentary surprise are present without being over the top and denying the PC their own enjoyment.

He's still powerful. And some of his handling is rough. I like that they still included that because it still registers without giving off fear/terror/non-consent, or like Tav wants him to stop. I wouldn't agree that the patch 6 faces aren't and weren't meant to be fear, however. Since I think the audio select chose from the fear "bank" of expressions. correct me if I'm wrong!

But, again, I do not agree that the dynamic, story, and path is in anyway comparable to the Harleep scene. The context and implementation is entirely different. I'm also not in this thread to discuss the intricacies of Harleeps scene. That's a different topic.

I see you are not paying much attention to what I'm writing.
I've never said it is. It wasn't about it at all. I said that this game DOES have a potentially triggering content. Even if Haarlep content is entirely different from AA, it doesn't change the fact that it is still triggering for a lot of people and it DOES exist in this game still without a warning.
Saying that one triggering content is allowed to exist and another isn't allowed is just double standard.

Also, conveniently ignoring the same point about Embrace!Durge and AA himself.

I'm with you with this idea. Also because that kiss from patch 5 has been put back into AA in the new evil endings, so I don't see why it couldn't be an option in kisses as a consequence of choosing "be gentle". It's a kiss that AA had for a long time before patch 6 anyway.

i didnt say anything about haarlep, since his scene is irrelevant for this discussion anyway. but going forward, i would just urge others to also drop it as it doesnt have anything to do with AA.


just had another look some videos, as i havent updated my own game yet to see it on my own durge. but: agree on the biting kiss, i think tavs reaction is good there, not too much, especially with the look when he does bite. for the kneeling kiss i am torn, i think it is a bit over the top, especially adding the flirty eyes and barely a reaction to AA pushing tav away. the neck kiss is alright imo.



i am not sure what you mean by "audio select chose from the fear "bank" of expressions". our interpretation of the patch 6 expressions is different, it seems. i dont think its fear per se, you do. thats okay though. i think it comes down to how you interpret his behaviour as a whole. i dont know if you are open to the suggestion, but it *could* be interpreted as abusive. again, abuse comes in different ways, and this could be one. in which case patch 6 would be a more fitting expression, though still over the top. i am not saying this is noncon at all. there is still consent present. but you have to admit there is such a dynamic of a fun toxic relationship where you cant live with each other but also not without each other. doesnt mean tav doesnt do the same things to astarion sometimes maybe behind closed doors. understandable if you dont want to play this way, but the option would be nice (again, with patch 6 slightly tweaked to be less intense)

again, if this is not for you, feel free to ignore. i feel we are slowly inching towards mutual understanding and i dont want to fight.

Sorry, @Blue, I have a habit of doing a sweeping reply to a few things at once. The Harleep thing was not directed at you! I'm aware that someone else is wanting to have the discussion with me (not you) on Harleep. I'm just hoping to get across that I will not engage in that, as there are particular RP/arguments being used that are too violent and very triggering to my personal trauma.


I agree with you here as well. I play hardened/stoic characters. So the smile to me is goofy. And almost looks like a wince. Perhaps another compromise would be just to get rid of the full out grin. Though I know other AA fans may strongly love it. And deciding what face to put their is admittedly very difficult.


All good! From what I've heard from one of the body/face actors, facial expressions were modeled by actors, then four were selected for each emotion to be stored and used for various scenes throughout the game. So there is a "bank" of expressions for the AI selector to draw from, based off of audio present in the game. Which is how Tav gets their expressions.

I actually appreciate that you are able to not read it as fear. And I can also appreciate it just being seen as surprise/shock in the moment. I wish I could see the patch 6 faces that way. To me the shock and surprise is better communicated with 7. I don't personally see AA as an ab*ser. My read on him is just an evil, powerful, domineering vampire lord, being commanding with his love interest. Which I very much like. I have no problem with others wanting to RP whatever they wish, even ab*se. But I do think the patch 6 faces are too careless, and too harmful. I hope I'm actually addressing your point and not just rambling here!

It was totally poor choice of words on my part (someone else replied to my message but it was deleted(?) when I was about to send the reply). I don’t mean him to be an abuser canonically. I mean it more as toxic relationship, I want to make this clear, consent is always there. They both consent to whatever the other will do. Kind of a “I can make them worse” situation, starting with making them get on their knees. Though, RP can still include this as abuse in which case it would be absolutely HC. We can’t assume that the game decides which relationships are consensual or not, to the game everything you do is consensual. But HC can be abuse nonetheless, is what I mean. Patch 6 would definitely fit better with that narrative, both just toxic and abusive. But I definitely agree that they were over the top, especially the kneeling kiss. There is just dissonance of some sort between the over the top expression and then reaching for a kiss. Were it just slightly tweaked it would’ve been better. But we can’t demand that at this point. Also the other comment that was deleted mentioned patch 5. I don’t think we should go there. I think AA already has that kiss in the new ending, right? Personally I would like to keep the UA and AA kisses separately. And just go with the current AA animations with different expressions on Tav. I think it’s important that AA has his own kisses

It can absolutely be canonically non-consensual in some playthroughs: (Warning)

if you try to break up and he refuses, sure. but that will be your game-canon because you chose the option. i dont want to tell you how to play, but there are different options and you dont have to choose them if they dont fit your narrative, or do choose them if they do. for example, my durge never asked AA to break up in the post-game scene so for my game-canon it didnt make sense to ask for freedom at the party. they were toxic to each other (loved patch 6 expressions), but they were together. i appreciate the narrative of tav being naive and falling for AA to the point of wondering if it was the right decision and trying to break things off in the end to realize they are trapped, but again this is only game-canon for that individual game because you chose that option.

Like I said, in SOME playthroughs.
(Warning: discussion of abuse)

Friends, seriously? I can't believe that this argument not only exists, but is clearly not going to end.
So much has been said here (and other CLOSED THEMES) that if I post something, I'm just repeating someone. And it will be an endless circle of dance in place. So, I'll be brief.

I didn't see a single grievance or argument when AA and UA kissed 1 single. No one was yelling about the switch, adding fear, etc. EVERYONE was fine with it.
Yes, they are different ways of Astarion, I'm mindful of that, no need to repeat it. But the studio released the game with one kiss for both paths.
Repetition:
One. One satisfied kiss. In Romance.There were no complaints.

Patch 7 brought a bunch of updates, and, mind you, a bunch of bugs. A huge pile of bugs. And if you factor in the mods... Well, it's not all smooth sailing.
I still have patch 6 animations AA in my saves. Something's interfering new, and I haven't figured out why yet. And it's horrible. I had to start a new game.
Maybe should pay attention to this? To fixing the bugs? Rather than adding a feature that's going to break something?
Guys, things are still bad with Will's content. Maybe that's something better to pay attention to?
But... Larian wants to turn the game in, do a new project, not introduce new content. Maybe that's something to consider too? Well, at least a little bit.

And I DON'T want a fear/love switch. I just won't and I can't use the "fear" feature in romance. Thank you. But no.That's it, I've made my point.

So what if he's evil? Alignment mandates being an ab**er? Why doesn't Minthara do that then? There's nothing wrong with her romance. Romances with evil companions have been in many games:

BG1: Dorn Il-Khan (Neutral Evil) - everything is fine with the romance. BG2: Viconia DeVir (Neutral Evil) - beautifully written romance. Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous: Daeran (Neutral Evil) - great romance, was my favorite until I met Astarion. And of course, Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader: Marazhai - I haven't played it myself, but everyone praises it, including many players who were disappointed with Larian and quit the game after patch 6. If you look at the Owlcat forum, you won't find anyone who was disappointed with this novel. I only mentioned the games that I could immediately recall, and where the alignment is either explicitly stated in the companion description or obvious, as in the case of Marazhai. You can probably find more, but you won't find it anywhere, not in any RPGs

*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***


Please cite the source of this quote (article, interview, etc.).


Yes, that's an excellent point. Indeed, Larian themselves call it an improvement, and it is.


Yes, thanks for the clarification. I remember now in which specific article that quote was:

Baldur's Gate 3 Developers Explain ...s, and Making the Best RPG of 2023"

Yes, Adam Smith obviously sees the ending of Astarion that way, and it has nothing to do with his romance. Since Adam Smith is not the author of Astarion, only Stephen Rooney's opinion on it can be “canon” to me, but that's my personal opinion. In my post, I simply stated my perception about the fact that, yes, I'm afraid too, so Astarion and I are both afraid of what will happen if he doesn't Ascend, why not interpret it that way. I just don't see what's wrong with it if fear is not an irrational phobia, but part of a reasonable mechanism for survival and adaptation in an aggressive environment. In RL we don't live in a pink pony world either, after all, and “fear” has its degrees too, the form of “fear” that causes one to adequately perceive reality, to take steps to ensure one's own safety, is a useful survival mechanism. It's worse when it isn't. In my opinion, AA is behaving in this way, he is reasonably concerned for his own safety, increasing his chances of survival. Of course, his fear is deeper and it is that fear, that alteration of consciousness that is a consequence of severe PTSD. Only time and, indeed, the development of one's own strength and power will help. But isn't UA afraid? He must be even more afraid deep down, because he is more vulnerable, weaker, and we don't forget that this is the same Astarion, with the same PTSD. The authors don't talk about it, but it follows objectively from all the facts we know about him. He's afraid to even take off his mask, to show his true character, he's afraid Tav will leave him. He has even more fears. I rather strongly disagree that having fear and having a “ fearful ending” are the same thing. “A ‘ fearful ending’ is a description that fits someone who dies a fearful death. But the ending of the game is, of course, only the ending of this particular stage of life for Astarion, and so is only the beginning of his new life.


Both characters gave their autonomy to each other and became one - yes, I really like this interpretation. I myself also see this novel the same way, not only in the “evil” ending, but in the “good” ending too. Tav is dependent on Astarion nominally and emotionally (a character in love is dependent on the other anyway, since the beloved is the most valuable person in their life). Astarion is also highly dependent emotionally, he needs Tav very much, which is why he makes Tav his bride (or spawn, who likes it) so that Tav will never leave him. But he also gives up his autonomy - he's always there for Tav, Tav is central to his life, he doesn't feel the need to do anything autonomously without Tav's input. He could, after all, not go to that party he didn't want to go to, but stay to rest in the castle, Tav won't “run away”, the bond between them is strong enough, after all, he lets Tav go with Karlach if Tav wants it. But he still goes together with Tav to the party, which means he just doesn't want to stay home alone. Ideally, this novel should have been like that, both characters having given their autonomy to the other, if Astarion just knew that Tav doesn't get high on “degradation” and loves him unconditionally and will always be there for him. But I liked the one single playable option for the evil ending - option 1, when Tav, becoming Absolute, leads the army. All other options are extremely disappointing - there again “evil-isolation”, and Tav kills their beloved (or LI kneels with the rest, as in the option with a stupid statue of “self-love”). But the first option leaves room for a wonderful headcanon - use the power of the Absolute not according to Dead Three's plan, but for your own purposes - find a god sphere on Faerûn/kill some deity for the sake of their sphere, make Astarion a deity, then he will definitely have a “good ending” and you won't have to worry about his safety, then destroy the unnecessary Brain and live peacefully in his domain.


Yes, I overplayed the scene, at “ gentle” he does bite twice, first on the hand, then on the neck. And actually, the whole point of that choice is for Astarion to kiss Tav's hand gently. I meant that the “tenderly” option could in no way imply frightened faces, that would be silly. If Astarion saw such a face on his beloved, of course he would stop and find out what was wrong.


I apologize, bug in the sense of “mistake”. I was in a hurry because I had to leave and quickly used the translator to save time, and it already translated “mistake” as “bug”. About ratings - I've discussed this issue in detail in other threads, so I'd better make a link so I don't have to write the same thing.

Warnings in the game - necessary or not?

Larian, please ensure you don’t take away player agency with AA in patch 7




DU doesn't force love-interest to kiss them through tadpole, but kisses them and kills them in the process, the video of the scene does not show any “forcing” in any way. This video is a murder scene. DU kills their lover in the moment of kissing, when LI trusts them completely.

I don't like this ending at all, but here one can except to complain to Larian themselves about the plot of this ending, which made it impossible to play as a DU without rejecting Bhaal for those who love their romantic companion. But, if we review the evil endings for consistency with the M rating (review in terms of “bloody”, since a certain level of conventional violence also requires an AO rating, as in bloody horror games), they fit perfectly within the M rating. Yes, they are gory, but:

1. There are no sustained intense scenes of violence. We see a sequence of brief violent scenes, cumulatively creating a sense of drama, of carnage, but each of these scenes is brief, the camera moves away quickly (by the way, at one point they used Astarion's animation when he stabs Gandrel in the eye with a dagger, right to the point, lol). The blood doesn't look very realistic, like paint (maybe it's the fact that it's a video). There is no child violence shown in the footage. The little girl dies in the story, but we don't see how. At 8.08 (Urge Ending) we see the girl (the central NPS of these scenes) with a dagger sticking out of her chest, the little girl is below, shown up to her neck, no dagger sticking out of her is shown. The little girl does not pick up the spear in choice 1, she is not shown in the shot (even a shot like “war child” was decided to be avoided). The little girl is not shown in the shot when everyone becomes illithid. By the way, it is not even shown how an adult girl puts a tadpole in her eye.

2. There is no naturalism in the depiction of cruelty. A townsman puts another townsman's face to the burning coals of the forge, where are the burns? The victim looks as if he was just smeared with soot, although the game's graphics are perfectly capable of showing the burns (the face of the half-illithid's DU looks very realistic, showing the burns would be no more difficult). The way his head is smashed with a hammer afterward isn't shown either. When the little girl stabs her protector with a dagger, that also looks unrealistic, she just pokes the dagger + red color of blood, and that's it, just like a mannequin. No anatomical details of the killing process, everything is softened. These endings are dramatic, but if you compare these scenes to scenes from AO rated horror games, they would be pretty “vanilla”.

Swen doesn't seem to want BG3 to be on the same shelf as AO rated games. Larian could have easily made those scenes with the same plot more violent and naturalistic, but they didn't. They could have shown a child being killed for once so that the evil players could see the “aftermath”, but no, it seems Larian doesn't want an AO rating for themselves. I'm certainly not an expert in this matter, but okay, if they suddenly listen to you and bring those scenes back, the ESRB will consider it, it's their job. And then we'll see.


So? Where is the video of traumatizing content here? Are there any rules about this, or at least the name of a descriptor that would describe such content as “a voice/text line talking about someone not letting someone break up”?


D/s scenes refer to normal sex scenes and can be in a game rated M. Well ok, Larian should write somewhere that there are D/s scenes in Astarion's romance, for those who don't like it. But that's at their discretion, no rules obligate them to do that.


The option doesn't clarify what you are “forcing”? Well yes, the text for selecting this line says nothing about it. If in your perception it does, that's your right, in fact it doesn't exist in the game.

Mirmi Actually a lot of people do pay attention to bugs. There are other threads which discuss other issues and bugs with Astarion. One thing doesn't contradict the other. IDK why you didn't notice all the other threads.
This thread wouldn't be active if people just agreed to compromise, to have both options and moved on.

Seriously, no one here is asking for a new content. People literally ask to give us an option to choose between two already existing animations. Which requires one boolean flag.

Marielle, yeah, sorry, I'm not reading this wall of text.
I will give you your link to Neil's words and move on: ( - 18:38)


- 18:38

Rote90, No my friend, adding a "switch" is new content. It's not in the game yet. And thanks for pointing out other topics, will definitely visit them if you don't consider seeing a different opinion here.

I understand what you mean and I accept it. It would work for me too if it was a one-time thing. But this face of shock is fair for one such time. Isn't it? Will the PC be shoking the same way the second time when asking for a kiss? Another reason why these faces from patch 6 seem out of place is that it's impossible to feel shock every time, in my opinion. The next times our character would already be ready for such kisses.
Such a kiss, on his knees in a state of shock, by the way, would be suitable for breaking up with Astarion at the very end. It would be perfect.
I want to say, kisses are made for fun and players want to see their characters happy in repeated kissing scenes. I personally wouldn't use a kiss if I knew that my PC was in for a shock every time. Fear, shock, that's not something players want to play through all the time. Of course, there are fans of that kind of content, but BG3 doesn't seem like the kind of game where that's appropriate. But if Larian deems it possible and appropriate and keeps both kissing options in the game, patch 6 and patch 7, and does it carefully so that new players aren't shocked that they chose the wrong option and see something other than what they expected, then everything will be fine. I want everyone to be happy. Everyone should enjoy the game. But honestly, I don't know how to implement two options, because here you really need a metagame, because all people are different, and for example, a new player will choose the options that he likes, and the result will be that his character is shocked, and the player expected something completely different, there will be frustration and misunderstanding. The same with the other side. Therefore, I don't know how this can be carefully implemented into the game so that it works. But probably Larian could come up with something.