Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion and Shadowheart Poly interactions

Made this account to finally just post on this forum so hopefully they see and change it, I won't go into too much detail why as there are many discussions that detail this probably on here, reddit and many other forums. I know there are many other people that want this altered and changed as well, as it doesn't make sense for Spawn Astarion and Selune Shadowheart to be okay with cheating with Mizora and their reaction to poly in act three because of so many inconstancies and poly being felt like it's forced and portrayed poorly, there should be nuance between paths. I know and saw that Astarion got a rework for his reaction to Mizora and HOPE they change Selune Shadowhearts reaction to the point where she will break up with you and is hurt by the players actions. My other issue is both Selune Shadowheart and Spawn Astarion being okay with poly on these route there are so many problems and inconsistencies with it , it makes sense for them to be okay with it on their bad routes where Astarion is controlling and Shadowheart is brainwashed and corrupted to not believe in love and still hold her views of Shar. To try and put it briefly why it's bad (I'm sure other people will jump in and elaborate), makes nonsense and why they should change it, Astarion was SA and clearly isn't in the right mindset and is unsure of the idea and Shadowheart has many lines that shows why she wouldn't be into it like "I don't want to be a spare lover" while also her situation of being SA but in a not obvious way like Astarion and she was pressured and forced to participate in these activities, Halsin feels like a self insert and late addition that just ruins the immersion, RP and character arcs. But that's all I know other people feel the same and didn't want to write and rant on and on about why it should change as others have stated it else where.


Larian please change this for them
-Selune Shadowheart NOT being okay with poly with the drow twins, Halsin and her breaking up with the player after cheating on her with Mizora
-Spawn Astarion NOT being okay with poly with the drow twins and Halsin.
-Lastly a for everyone thing can we get something for the Harleep interaction they all are just okay with it for some reason.

Some Links
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...y_ruin_characters_development_very_long/
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...ly_romance_between_astariontavhalsin_is/
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/175aprn/it_is_weird_how_selune_sh_is_fine_with_poly/
Youtube Title "Shadowheart Refuses to be a Side Chick/ Polygamy | Baldur's Gate 3 (BG3)"

Another thread on this forum
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=891758&page=1

It is true that we have had similar discussions here before, and they have often been extremely uncomfortable, with posters appearing to equate monogamy with "good" routes and willingness to try more open relationships with "evil". It should be clear that this is likely to be upsetting and offensive to some forum members.

Can I remind everyone that this space is for everyone regardless of gender, gender identity/expression, sexuality, religion, race, ethnicity, or nationality. Offensive content or harassment on this basis, either personal or generalised, will not be tolerated?

If we do feel we need to discuss this topic again, please be respectful of your fellow forum members and very, very careful that what you say does not have negative implications about real life sexual preferences of others.

There is a thread about the topic around Shadow and Astarion out of all companions being the poly options in Character and Story. Baseline was, that it is a bit strange that the polys are all ( or general abuse in Shadows case) victims.
I think, this is the thread: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=879967#Post879967

Generally, I do like a poly route, but it is not very well implemented in the game ( one of the few things, I do not like). I personally think, that Shadowheart being open in general to it, is ok, she was pretty smitten with Karlach for example.
I just don't think, that Halsin as a character as he is written in act 3, is a good representation. He is more written as a horny guy, than anything else.
And Astarion with his background doesn't really work for me in that context either.
The whole twin situation in the brothrel is just messed up tbh. If you romance anyone else but Halsin, it feels as if you force your partner to participate. I prefer to talk with the twins about their future and the murder case, because everything else is done pretty cringe.

Poly in general is not evil or good, it is a relationship situation like any other.

Can you explain, what you want to address with Haarlep? I think, it is the most creepy encounter in the whole game, if you through with it and the aftermath is horrible. I'm ok with it though, because it hammers home, that everything to do with devils and hells will have a cost.

With Harleep, I feel as if there isn't much explanation or reactions from your love interest or companions to you going through with it but maybe I missed something there.

The association of "evil" happens because that's where their experience and trauma comes from but still doesn't make sense for it to be that way with many inconsistencies and wish for it to be changed on their "good" paths (Selune/Spawn). Maybe you a Mod can put in the good word for this to be changed and altered.

Sorry, I have expanded my post during your answer.

Ah, ok, I see. Yes, there should be more reaction from the companions for sure, especially the love interest.

I'm afraid that both as a mod and as an individual I am uncomfortable with the implication that an openness to poly or open relations per se is equated with either evil or trauma, and am very much in favour of giving gamers the opportunity to roleplay more positive open relationships with Selune Shadowheart and Spawn Astarion if that is what they wish. I would strongly disagree with the suggestion that the option is removed, and think doing so would send a worryingly negative message about Larian's attitude to non-monogamy.

Which isn't to say that I think that all the writing is consistent and couldn't be improved, and as with many other places in the game I'm sure tweaks could help make it better. Though I'll admit this is not a priority area for me.

Red Queen is right, that poly is not evil. I do agree with you, that some characters make more sense than others and as I wrote in my extended version of my first post, I think Shadow being open to poly with the right person, might not be that out of the field. Astarion has had to , therefore I don't think, he works well here.
Halsin just doesn't work at all for me, because I don't think, he was ever written as a serious representation for poly, but basically a meme. And the way it is implemented including disapprovals, if you say no to Halsin, is not well done.

Yeah, for me it's also simply Halsin, who is really icky. The smarmy way he comes on to you, the gaslighting (pressuring you, when you politely decline because you supposedly quized him about his love-life - even if you didn't) and his atrocious behaviour in the brothel (The vulture line above all) all make my skin crawl in the very worst way.

I would prefer a way of getting your love's thoughts but then telling them you'd much rather keep it between the two of you. For example, with Astarion you can say, "I'm not sure, I wanted to get your thoughts." He then says you can have as much Halsin as you'd like but then he proposes the question of "its not because we haven't in awhile?" I wish there were a way of saying "What are your thoughts?" then proceeding to tell them you would actually want the relationship to stay monogamous.

I think its very great to allow poly relationships in the game & I don't think evil pathed companions should only have the option. I think the discussion between you & the partner should've been more thorough.

I never stated anything regarding good or evil routes that's just how it ended up due to Shadowheart being forced into those practices by Shar, but I strongly disagree just because it is related to their “good” or “evil” paths doesn’t imply that poly is bad. It makes no sense, there are inconsistencies in their writing and then being poly wasn’t set up or thought out or set up from the start. Them removing it and changing it would better fit their characters and writing and I don’t think it sends a lord message of poly as Halsin with still be a show of poly with the drow and mizora.

Overall the poly situation just is inconsistent and poor with Astarion and Shadowheart on their “good” routes and it should be changed/removed and nuanced for their other paths.

I have no horse in this race- and, in fact, some biases against Halsin. Nevertheless, eh, I don't think it's that big of a deal.
I don't think it's too crazy that they might've chosen who to make available for poly based on popularity, but I also don't think it's *extremely* OOC for them or anything. I feel like they ran into the issue where most of their cast feels very strictly monogamous, but they still wanted to offer the poly option.
I think with Astarion some people worry about the whole thing because of some lines that could've been handled better, and his backstory making people nervous around the topic. That being said, I don't see why someone with a backstory of SA is obligatorily not okay with their partner being poly.

Shadowheart is complicated because on one hand I can see a bunch of girl next door tropes applied to her because of her romance being a slow burn and her being a secretly soft Defrosting Ice Queen, which to most people tends to suggest monogamy (whether that's a correct association or not), while on the other they've implied she's quite sexually open and/or liberated, often enough for me not to consider it out of character that she'd be okay with several partners (note that someone being sexually adventurous doesn't equal with being okay with polygamy- hopefully I'm making sense here. I mean, see Gale, he's one of the freakiest guys and I can never see him as poly).

Also, to be frank: I don't care that much. I don't want poly, so I don't pick it, and I don't see it.

I never said or meant to intend that poly is evil. I don’t think Shadowheart is the right choice for poly where she has lines that show otherwise. Being smitten about a characters like Karlach doesn’t mean that someone is or might be poly. I would have preferred someone that doesn’t have trauma and bad experiences with sex such as Astarion and Shadowheart to be okay with poly like Karlach would have been good. I just want them to change it for Shadowheart and Astarion because is ver inconsistent, ruins some character development and I think gives and paints a port representation of poly.

I agree with you, I'm not poly so I never pick the option. I reload just to see Astarion's impression of Halsin bc it makes me laugh lol

I agree with this just because on their “good” path they should not be ok with poly doesn’t paint the picture that poly is “evil” it just doesn’t make sense for them to be ok with poly on that path. I hope they change and alter it to where they aren’t fine with poly on that path and nuance it between paths. It ruins some of their story arc because of it the addition of poly seems poor and a late and last minute thought because Halsin wasn’t even supposed to be a companion.

And just because it’s “too late” doesn’t mean they can’t change it they should change it and make it better, right and correct for the character.

I really hope they listen and change it.

Ah, I'd also have to add that poly is handled a bit weirdly, I think, in that it'd feel more authentic if it was possible with anyone other than Halsin. I mean, if Shadowheart is okay with Tav dating Halsin, why not Astarion, you know? I think the reasoning for this is that maybe it was a bit of a coding nightmare to make everything so open, but I'm unsure and not particularly savvy in gamedev. Astarion does specifically mention that he's ok with the Halsin arrangement because Halsin is "experienced with that kind of arrangement", so I guess that was their explanation for why one but not the other. But I could see why that's jarring to people, or makes the poly system feel very limited.

I could also see someone like Karlach being okay with poly, but I think that similarly, like with Astarion, she has some baggage (that being her years of loneliness) that might make people uncomfortable with the idea (and I repeat: that's regardless of whether or not people are right in having that concern)

I agree that it could have been implemented and written a bit better, there are certainly issues, but unfortunately, at this point, IMO, it's too late already.
I mean, for example, Astarion epilogues with a mindflayer Tav are still a complete and utter mess. Spawn also feels utterly neglected, compared to AA, he also has absolutely no reaction to being kidnapped hy his siblings. These are much more pressing matters, IMO.
So at this point, I would much rather Larian fix their glaring huge bugs and inconsistencies before walking away from the game, instead of wasting time on something that at least somewhat works already.

I thought about that too. It would be more interesting if, after the characters have gotten to know each other better, you could maybe come back to a possible love interest the player might have had in act 1 and spin a tale from this, which would be fairly personal to that player's play through. But what a coding nightmare. With the romance-banter being unlocked for the game now, the characters' comments about each other's romances can get a second layer of meaning if both of them are at the flirting stage with you. Lae'zel and Shadowheart bonding over hair braiding for example - or Gale and Lae'zel discussing the use of psionics during sex very rationally (I love these two).

I agree with this as well, but ultimately nothing is going to change considering the unintentional implications of restricting poly to the evil paths. It won't send a good message, that's for sure.
Honestly, this is only an issue because of Halsin's late addition as a romance, it's not like they approached this topic with the intention of giving people a good poly representation. It simply was the easiest way to make the Halsin romance option available for as many players as possible without losing their main romance and having to break up with them.
As for Shadowheart and Astarion, they were clearly only chosen to be fine with it because they are the most popular female and male romance options, regardless of any inconsistencies the previous writing creates. The same would've happened if they chose other origins to be fine with this, as none of them were written as poly from the start.

She is an option for poly, actually. She'll give Tav her consent to be with Halsin. But she gives off the same vibes Astarion does, if not even more so, and from what I've seen in the fandom, most people believe she only accepts it because she's about to die and doesn't want to disappoint Tav.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, although I think it makes more sense for Ascended Astarion to be against Halsin, and Spawn Astarion to be a bit more permissive of him. Ascended Astarion is supposed to be very possessive and controlling and it's kinda strange that they're so inconsistent with it. Spawn Astarion's current reaction is alright as it is. With Shadowheart, yeah, Selune Shadowheart accepting poly and letting you cheat on her with Mizora is absurd. In act 1 and 2, she appears to be monogamous. There's that "I'd never want to be your spare lover" line like you mentioned and there's also monogamous aligned banter where she turns down Astarion for a date because she's dating you. What's even more bizarre, is in Act 3 you can tell her that she WILL be the spare lover in your relationship with Halsin, and that you're not sure if there will be space for her in your and Halsin's relationship, and she'll just be like "oh well there's a lot of places I can squeeze in between you two ;)". Like okay? I guess the romantic relationship is frivolous now that Halsin's arrived? All she wants is sex sex sex now? Truly awful and actually ruins her romance IMO. And that doesn't even touch on the fact that she flirts with him in Act 3 even when you're not in a poly relationship with all of them. Super tacky

Her being okay with Halsin and Mizora on her Sharran route is fine since she's not truly in a relationship with you anyway, although her reaction to Mizora still makes no sense. Why would you have to ask her permission for anything when her heart belongs to Shar and you're just sneaking around?

The biggest shame is that none of this will ever be changed. I think Larian is pretty much done making big narrative changes.

Nah, they really watered down Ascended Astarion. Honestly, there should have been a scene, where he compels Tav not to go with Karlach to Avernus or with Lae'Zel. Instead, he is like: "You didn't leave me, I let you go". At this point, even though he still doesn't allow to break up with him, he looks like he really isn't even that much obsessed and he just doesn't care about Tav much (because, obviously, he is evil and very selfish, so he did let them go not because he really cares about helping Lae'Zel or Karlach, like Spawn does). He is making himself a whole army of other spawns, so like... whatever. His writing is all over the place in the end of the game. It's really-really noticeable that his writer left Larian.

I agree with this. There were moments in the game that fell short of showing AA's more possessive, controlling or protective tendencies. As it is it's sometimes inconsistent. Not likely to be changed much now though. -.-

Personally, I see it differently.
If AA has no problem with TAV having a fling with Mizora, it seems logical to me that the same thing happens with Halsin. For AA, I suppose things are on the same level: both Halsin and Mizora are a distraction, a moment of fun. AA's possessiveness is not in not allowing TAV to do what they likes (see also allowing them to follow Karlach into Avernus), but in not allowing them to leave him. He allows TAV to do what they wants, but the deal is that they must stay with him.

I think that's a fair perspective; he still wants them to do what they like and enjoy themselves.

I mean, Tav following Karlach or Lae'Zel and abandoning him for 6 months is exactly "allowing them to leave him".
It looks really weird and out of character for AA. But oh, well. It's too late, I guess.

It's fun to watch your headcanons come into conflict with the game.

In fact, this dialog appeared in the game before patch 7 and was already in the game files, it was even posted on youtube. Perhaps at the same time as the spawn had a new reaction to treason.

As for AA, since the epilogues were added, Tav-spawn could leave AA and she wasn't forcibly dragged to the palace when Tav and Astarion met at a party 6 months later. So I don't understand what OOC there is to talk about.

Yeah, I don't care how long it was or wasn't in the game's files, not the point.

OOC is that when Tav tries to break up with AA before the epilogue, he forces them to stay with him, once again in the epilogue, I ask for freedom, he denies it: "Not this again". I mean, the second time Tav isn't even asking for break up, they literally ask for "FREEDOM".
And AA denies it.
He keeps this Tav as his slave and literally denies them freedom when asked for exactly this, but somehow he is okay to let them to go with Karlach?
Nah.

AA was letting go Tav/DU with Laezel/Karlach back in patch 5, as epilogues came out.
And at the time of patch 5 Rooney was still working at Larian, what kind of leaving can we talk about then?

According to the vampire brides lore, the brides are actually convinced they can be controlled when in fact they aren't, so... The fact that Astarion can't bring back Tav, who broke up with him or left to hang around the Astral Plane, speaks volumes.

Player: Cazador could compel you - can you compel me?
Astarion: Why would I need to? You're going to be wonderfully obedient.

«Although there are some folk tales that describe the bride of a vampire as its slave, in much the same way that offspring are slaves, a bride is free-willed from the moment of her creation. The creator vampire does have great influence over the bride, however, although this control is totally nonmagical. When a vampire is created in the traditional manner - that is, when a victim's life energy is completely drained away - the new fledgling instinctively understands much about the vampiric way of unlife, and about its own strengths. weaknesses, and needs. Not so the bride. Newly-created brides are generally ignorant of their own capabilities. If in life they heard folk tales and myths about vampires, they might have some vague conception, but often these tales are totally wrong. The bride is effectively dependent - totally dependent - on her creator, to learn how to survive as a vampire. This obviously gives the creator great power over the bride. By lying to her or bending the truth, he can convince her that she must obey his every order or suffer horrible consequences. With time, and through experimentation, the bride might find out the true level of control her creator has over her - that is, none. She is still in a very inferior position, of course, because she is a Fledgling and her creator is at least an Ancient.»

1. AA gave no comment about Tav leaving with Karlach or Lae'Zel back in Patch 5, so it doesn't count. His epilogue with a mindflayer Tav makes it look like he is together with them, but it's obviously just a bug. So, the same situation could have been there.

2. Tav is not a vampire bride. They are his Spawn. Confirmed by devnotes and other flags in the datamined files.
It's Larian's canon. Also, AA compels Tav to stay with him when they want to break up in the end. Also canon.

3. For the sake of this argument, let's pretend that Tav is a vampire bride, even though it's not true. Then what, are you saying AA is a good partner for literally gaslighting Tav into thinking they are his slave, because they can't leave him without his permission? "You didn't leave me, I let you go." Nope. Still abuse either way. Still lying to them to deny Tav their freedom.

You realize it's possible to play a spawn PC, break up with Astarion before the end of the game and never get compelled by him to stay right? (Not even saying he can or can't do it. Just saying he always compels spawn Tav is literally not the case).

The interesting thing in that ending is you keep the suns resistance and he's rather "We did have something good together didn't we" at the ending. Honestly it's the most fond I get of AA especially since he admits his loneliness.

Oh man, I love his line about missing Tav and admitting he's lonely. Especially in the face of how hard he copes when he's first dumped, acting like it'll be so easy to replace the PC. Only to show up six months later and swallow his pride enough to admit he didn't. The voice acting is great there. You can hear the bravado, mixed with a tinge of nostalgia.


BUT that brings it back to the relevant topic of the thread. I agree with @celesti. I'm actually surprised how...non-possessive he can be as a Lord. I wouldn't mind him being a tad more vampiric and obsessive in the face of poly scenes and dialogue. I'm surprised AA is so permissive and "do what you wish" with Tav. Compared to normal vampire lore, he is pretty soft with the PC. Not necessarily a bad thing. But couldve been fun to lean into the obsessive nature a bit more.

Obviously it's possible, because he can't compel Tav while the tadpole is still in their head. He never compels this Tav because they literally never stay with him alone in the end if they broke up previously. And if he tried to do it in the presence of other companions, they would have defended Tav and kicked his bottom for it. This perfectly explains why he only forces Tav not to break up with him when they do it in the end, when they are alone with AA.
Confirmed by the epilogues, if you attack AA at the party, everyone joins you against AA.

Actually, thinking about it, I get it now, why he didn't compel Tav not to go with Karlach and Lae'Zel. Because the party would have killed him for controlling and enthralling Tav like that. And of course, he can only compel Tav when they hear his words (confirmed by the epilogue of Spawn Astarion with Cazador still being alive).
All right, I take my words back. This ending with Karlach/Lae'Zel actually makes sense now. It's just that AA lied and gaslighted Tav again.

My whole point is that PC has had *months* without the tadpoles protection at that point and he doesn't force them to join him. Neither does he attempt it at the party.


Yeah the cope does make me chuckle. Man went full "I'll have another you by tomorrow" then had to choke on his words later. I do respect him for being real enough to admit it though.

I like yanderes but I don't really feel AA would be one? Like I dunno he doesn't give me the possessive vibes personally.

For me a yandere Astarion should've jumpscared my dumped him spawn at the ending. XD I didn't get that.

i lowkey wish he was more possessive after the ritual.

I think that it's implied that Tav, who recognized how awful he was and thus broke up with him before he could compel them, knows they can't really see him or he will compel them. These months they just didn't see each other (confirmed by the dialogue, by the way). Maybe Tav even run away from him on purpose.
Once again. He can't compel them at the party. Otherwise all the other companions will kill him for it. He can only be there with already compelled Spawn, because, obviously, he told them not to tell anyone they are with him against their will. Hence, you can ask for freedom, he will deny it at the party, but you can't ask other companions for help, because you are already compelled not to.

And all of this doesn't even matter anyway. He still forces Tav to stay with him in the end, when they want to break up. It's canon. Period. It's like to say that a man who killed one person isn't a killer, because he could have killed two, three, four people, etc.
Just because he didn't do it in some cases doesn't erase the fact that he is willing and able to do it.

Then walks up to him in a party where he can follow them like an idiot? Not to mention there's endings where the player *clearly* stays in Baldur's Gate so like what he didn't bother looking around?

And the reason you can't ask companions for help when you're not being compelled by him? I'm not sure why you're saying this like it's fact instead of your headcanon. Like this is a video game it's quite easy for devs to have a dialogue choice say one thing then have the companions clearly react to something else being said with player going "oh shit". This isn't some impossibility. A star wars MMO did it over ten years ago.

I didn't say he wasn't willing to do it. I said there's a circumstance *in which he doesn't* which is literally in game. Now if you want to argue that it shouldn't *be* in game fair enough but it's been there as long as the epilogue has been.

Canon doesn't explain these things, so yeah, it's my headcanon, but since there is no canonical official explanation to all this, then my headcanon is just as valid as yours. Maybe Tav warned other party members that if they see them with AA again, this means AA enslaved them. Perfectly reasonable explanation. Maybe Minsc, Jaheira, Wyll, who stayed in Baldur's Gate, were looking out for Tav, because they were warned by Tav to defend them against AA.


So? It's like to say: "See? Sometimes this killer doesn't kill people!"

Meanwhile my headcanon is he just left them be because man is too prideful to go crawling after them. :P

Yes it's almost like there's a scenario in which he lets the player go freely and it's relevant to him letting them go to Avernus or something. Crazy I know.

Okay, you are totally entitled to your headcanon, just like I'm entitled to mine. For me it doesn't make sense that AA has no pride to actually let Tav go and not enslave them in the end, but somehow he does the opposite out of his own free will when they break up with him just a few days earlier.
Much more logical explanation to me is that he is just afraid of other companions, because it's canon they are all very worried about Tav, once Tav becomes his Spawn.


Once again, what's your point? Okay, there is such scenario, just like the path where he forces Tav to stay with him is still equally canon. I mean, he literally forces Tav to stay with him the same day he allegedly lets them go out of his own "free will".
These two events directly contradict each other. If he was really okay to grant Tav their freedom, he would have NEVER forced them to stay with him. Instead, he does it twice. At least. Considering he says: "Not this AGAIN", it's implied that Tav regularly asked him to let them go.
My explanation is perfectly reasonable and nowhere does it contradict canon.

Oh I wouldn't argue someone's not entitled to their headcanon. Only when they try to use that headcanon to say canon events don't make sense. It is canon that Astarion lets spawn Tav go on their merry way if they dump him before the brain is dead that's my whole point.

I mean people can be contradictory now how you want to square that is up to one's headcanon I personally go with him being too prideful to be seen as begging for Tav to come back you rather see it as them being afraid of the companions. The game doesn't give a solid answer on that so it's pointless to argue over neither of us can say our way is right or not.

I'm glad you recognize this.

Long as you recognize it as well

I agree it would have been fun imo and they wouldn't have needed to go overboard with it, either.^^

That made me think of this line that he says the morning after the turning night:
"Just... don't stray TOO far – but you would never dream of doing that, would you?"

When he says the first part, he sounds kind of worried and uncertain, and I feel like that's because he knows Tav *could* stray from him if they wanted to, and he really doesn't want that to happen. In the second part of that dialogue (where he makes a slight pause and then says "but you would never dream of doing that-") it seems like he catches himself and then puts on the self-confident air again, as if he's very sure that Tav's not going anywhere.

But to me, this was one example of the writing showing that he has possessive tendencies and doesn't want you to leave his side, at least not too far or for too long. The 'sequestering you' dialogue also comes to mind.

I personally lean more towards the vampire bride theory and I think there are enough clues there to make it ambiguous (if you'd like to think Tav is a regular spawn or if AA actually performed the vampire bride ritual on them, that is up to the player to decide in the end).

I just wanted to point out, in regards something said here a bit earlier- that he says he likes you and missed you because power is lonely in the epilogue regardless of whether or not you were ever together. It's still an interesting bit of insight, though.

I really wish Larian would fix this but I know it's too late. It's the one thing in this game I think is out and out terrible and doesn't fit with prior dialogue

This is a very contentious issue all around. Nonetheless, instead of shying away from hard, or uncomfortable, conversation, I think we need to engage in them - amicably. It's not a question of poly, but what form that poly takes. As someone who is poly, it's important to remember that there's a difference between polyamory and polygamy. Polyamory IS linked to trauma; which is why Halsin, Shadowheart, and Astarion being poly makes perfect sense.

Personal take on changes: Leave everyone the way they are until they make the definitive choice. I see Spawn Astarion becoming almost hyper-possessive, and not wanting anything to do with anyone else but Tav. Shadowheart down the Selunite path, probably not, but shifting more into being in a closed relationship than an open one. But that's not really something that's possible, so that would require a lot more writing, and I just don't see it happening.

In short, being poly isn't about being good or evil, right or wrong, righteous or blasphemous, etc, etc. It's about the individual, and all-in-all, I think Larian did a pretty damned good job with it; even if I am a little butt-hurt that my love, Shadowheart, has certain proclivities...

No, I don't think we do need to have conversations that include such contentious and potentially offensive general claims as that polyamory is linked to trauma here, on what is meant to be a fun place to chat about a game where everyone feels safe and welcome. Please let's steer clear of making such sweeping statements with implications for very personal aspects of people's real lives.

If people really feel the need to argue that the specific attitudes to sex or romance of game characters is linked to their personal story, that's a different matter, but as I said on the first page of this thread I do expect everyone to be very, very careful to avoid negative implications about others' real life sexual preferences.

That wasn't at all the primary focus of my response. My point (and I thought it was quite clear) was that I think Larian did a very good job of portraying such romances in game. The link between characters in a game, movie, or novel SHOULD be relatable, hence others can actually feel a connection with said person. Again, this is why characters that go down certain paths can have an alternate story arch. If not, then what would be the point of writing anything at all? I was in no way wanting to cause aggravation, humiliation, or frustration. Again, that's why I mentioned talking about such things in a more understanding manner.

Regardless, The primary point was that I think everything works well as-is, and nothing really needs to be changed. Though a few odds and ends here and their would, potentially, make sense.

Really? I think they did a terrible job of it. Shadowheart and Astarion flat out do not want to share in Act 2. The poly thing was forced in Act 3. This thread I saw a couple minutes ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1fw89g9/ummm_ew/ makes it even more vile. That third image is from when you cheat on Shadowheart with Mizora. Larian is actually using child abuse as a justification for her being fine with cheating and open relationships (even though she wasn't fine with it two hours ago in act 2 and has plenty of sexual boundaries in act 1)

Good God, this is awful.

It's good that the reporting function exists. Exaggerated comparisons from real life are not desired here.

I fail to see what's exaggerated. "The way I was raised, the way I was trained... Well it was positively encouraged to get to know each other".

It's pretty gross and Larian does indeed use that as the reason she doesn't care if you're faithful or not

Strange assumptions and you use assumptions to accuse Larian.

I'm honestly not understanding what you're saying. Shadowheart says she was raised and trained to have sex with other people. RAISED to do it. And yeah they do use it as the reason she doesn't care if you cheat on her

Look at this video

Ahem ...


Let's try to stay constructive and civil, as this is not a comfortable topic to have a row about.

No, that's not what you meant (we knew the other from the beginning), you're writing about her childhood and what supposedly happened to her.

To help with constructive debate it is good practice to quote specific comments that you are replying to, otherwise things get very puzzling and it's not clear what is a response to what or whom.

It also helps to actually be constructive, and that doesn't include telling others what they did or didn't mean. Please let them define that, and make your own points civilly and without heat.

This is why I stated at the very beginning that this is a sensitive topic and should be addressed with care. It's very possibly why Larian stayed away from sexual preference as far as gender went at the very beginning, which I both admire and also shun in equal measure. One one hand, it allows the player to engage in romance with whom they want; on the other, it's not very believable due to the nature of sexuality itself. Just as we all have preferences of whom we find attractive, we also have opinions on how that will manifest. Add in the options of polyamory, and it only muddies the water further. Why be open and free with one (sexuality) but not the other (poly or mono)?

An argument could be made for any and all sides, but at the end of the day, all we can do is speculate and air our grievances and opinions. When I said Larian did well enough, I meant well enough, not perfect. It's a very difficult implementation to add, and I think they handled it fairly well. Again, not perfectly, but well.

For me, personally, it's always about the story. I'm in no way saying that has to be anyone else's, so please don't start. When we veer from discussion and devolve into fallacies, the conversation breaks down. I love reading and hearing everyone's take on several topics, but the biting comments do nothing to further debate.

In short: It's not easy to write such thing's narratively due to the complexity of what poly entails. Side note - Cheating isn't the same as having an open relationship. And just because you're poly doesn't mean you're fine with your significant other being with everyone. So, the act one VS act two VS act three debate is another story all together.

Seems my 'in short' wasn't all that short... Oh well.

With the discussion and assumptions about SH as a child... 😑

Bi is normal in this world.

That's a very good point, and I see a huge difference too, having watched the videos of Astarion and Shadowheart in Acts 1 and 2 (regarding the “third” in the romance) and comparing that to the video of their agreement to it in Act 3. If you watch those videos in a row, it seems that our companions have Tav digging into their brains with the help of a tadpole to switch some “button” there. Moreover, the somewhat intrusive suggestion of polyamory occurs precisely when Tav and Astarion or Shadowheart already have a serious relationship, the player has had time to become attached and form an opinion about the relationship. This is especially acute in the Shadowheart romance. At least Astarion himself doesn't want any polyamorous relationship with Halsin, the player himself has to push him to do it, if you refuse Halsin right away, there will be no ambiguous banter between him and Astarion. And while it's certainly frustrating to see my favorite character being used for a bear video, it's still okay to say “No, that will never happen in my game, and it doesn't exist in my world”. In Shadowheart's case, unfortunately not all players can do that, and I completely understand their frustration and outrage over it. By the way, Zevran in DAO has the opportunity for polyamory, and he flirts with others, but only until your relationship has become serious, then, unless you yourself have used the opportunity for polyamory, there will be no hints of it, the relationship will be monogamous. Same with Daeran in Pathfinder, the opportunity is there, the opportunity is easily ignored, there is no sense of imposition.

I think BG3 should have also approached this topic more carefully and gently. Halsin should have first asked the couple he wants to join how they feel about polyamorous relationships in general, that would have been polite and reasonable. And only if they are willing to offer them. Also, just as it's unclear why Astarion and Shadowheart specifically? Both are traumatized characters, in Astarion's case it generally looks like he's only agreeing to this because of his affection for Tav. It doesn't seem like a positive representation of a polyamorous relationship. Wyll, for example, would be a much better fit for the role (Gale hardly, the character doesn't really fit), if Wyll happily agreed to a polyamorous relationship with Halsin while giving a speech about how good, free and generally “good” it is, it would look much better than in Astarion's case. Lae'zel, who offers sex to the player before any other companion, takes it very lightly at first (consistent with her upbringing and githyanki culture, but without any hint of trauma or being “taught anything”), is monogamous, and Shadowheart is poly. The only explanation I can see for why Larian decided to make poly specifically with Astarion and Shadowheart - they are the two most popular characters for romance among players, it's hard to find any other explanation for this choice. And this decision most likely came later, so polyamory was crammed into Act 3 without caring about the tactfulness of the execution or the consistency of character development.

They aren't assumptions about her though, she is forced into that situation with out consent. She was kidnapped and then tortured, brainwashed, pressured and applied a curse mark she was abused in all manners of ways and it would fall under a form of SA.

Thank you for making this topic. It's been hotly debated before and a lot of things can boil down to preferences, interpretation and visions on character consistency. One thing I personally find a glaring issue is that in some situations it ignores your Tav's consent, or even worse, pressures you and coerces Tav to consent to something after you've said no before already.

A little over a year ago, @Michieltjuhh already put the sequence of events down that can happen chronologically, so I'll link his original post and put a rewrite of that below (original post on ignoring player character's consent):

As it is now, this is what currently happens chronologically in act 3 between Tav, a romanced Selune Shadowheart and Halsin:

1. Tav goes skinny dipping with Shadowheart and then they "make sand castles", talk about it the next day and cement the relationship between them. From here on, following through with her personal quest and finishing the game, you'll either end up together adventuring, or you'll live together in a cottage. A happily ever after together.


2. Halsin confesses his love/attraction towards your Tav in camp. You can tell Halsin you are not attracted to him. As another option you can say you are already in a relationship and then follow up that you don't want to change anything about your relationship. He says he understands your choice and when you mention your established relationship he emphasizes the importance of consent.
Here are the dialogue choices written out:

So here you have explicitly stated you do not want to be involved with Halsin romantically/sexually or that you do not want him or someone else involved in your relationship with Shadowheart. So you either decline his advances specifically or you explicitally state you see your relationship with Shadowheart as monogamous (or at least not involving him).


3. The next time you have both Halsin and Shadowheart in your party, they will have a banter where he tries to invite himself to the next time you and Shadowheart go skinny dipping and "make sand castles". Halsin ignores that your Tav did not give consent to this just before and even explicitly stated you do not want him to involve himself. For whatever weird reason, instead of shutting Halsin down, Shadowheart says "maybe". With Shadowheart's "maybe", she is also disregarding your Tav's opinion on wanting nothing to do with Halsin romantically/sexually. As it's party banter while exploring, there is no way to interject or to speak with either of them about it afterwards to give your consent or decline this offer.
Here's the dialogue written out:


4. When you visit the Drow Twins and they suggest a foursome with Shadowheart and your Tav, she says she's interested if you are, then you can agree to do it or not. Genuinely great way to approach the subject in my opinion, she gives her opinion and leaves consent entirely with Tav at this point. However, if Halsin is in the party, after you agree to a foursome with the Drow twins, he will then try to invite himself and make it a fivesome and Shadowheart agrees to it. If your Tav then declines, both Halsin and Shadowheart both disapprove of you not agreeing to this fivesome. Halsin has now for the second time ignored your Tav's explicit statement of not wanting to be involved with him sexually/romantically, or your explicit statement of not wanting him involved in your relationship with Shadowheart. Shadowheart left it at "maybe" during the party banter, now she agreed before you could give your consent and disapproves of you not wanting sex with Halsin after declining him twice already.
Here's the dialogue written out:


And as I said, that conversation ends with both Halsin and Shadowheart disapproving of your Tav not consenting to sex with someone you have already declined twice. After declining Halsin's advances at 2., both 3. and 4. completely ignore your lack of consent. Despite declining Halsin at 2., he tries to have sex with you and your established romantic partner Shadowheart not once, but twice. And instead of Shadowheart declining if she knows about your Tav's choice at 2. (what I imagine is something you would discuss with your partner after declining someone else's advances), or asking on your consent if she is not aware of your choice at 2., she wlll say "maybe" at 3. Then she will say yes at 4. before asking your consent to a fivesome including Halsin, despite asking for explicit consent for a foursome, and then disapprove of you not giving your consent to a fivesome including Halsin.

Regardless of anyone's opinion on polyamory, monogamy, etc., open communication and consent are pillars of any type of romantic and/or sexual relationship. As these events are chronologically now within the game, and have been for the past year at least judging by the original post I am referring to, there is a complete lack of respect for your Tav's consent concerning involving Halsin in your relationship. After him highlighting the importance of consent and you declining his advances towards you personally and towards your relationship with your romantic partner, he then proceeds to disrespect that your Tav declines consent and tries to convince you and your romantic partner to have sex with him. Not once, but twice. And while Shadowheart handles the offer for a foursome with the Drow twins fantastically, communicates openly and sees if you consent or decline, she will completely disregard open communication and consent when Halsin tries to have a fivesome and will disapprove of you not giving consent. To me, it's absurd that so many of your Tav's boundaries on open communication and consent are disregarded and you're even punished with hits to approval for standing your ground to say no to Halsin rather than saying no and him pressuring you until you say yes.

I propose a very simple hotfix to this disregard of player consent towards sexual propositions. If your Tav turns down Halsin's advances at 2., then stop 3. from happening all together and stop Halsin from including himself in 4. He says he respects your choice and emphasizes the importance of consent, so have his character be consistent. A hotfix like that will also solve the problem of Shadowheart approving of Halsin's advances without communicating with your Tav on consent and the possible inclusion of other romantic/sexual partners into the relationship. If you fix the issue like this, there will be no need for rewrites or anything complex, just a simple flag set after your decision at 2. so that 3. and 4. can never occur the way they are doing right now.

I don't see it that way, the author or the game doesn't convey it that way, SH likes it and she likes Halsin, understandable, Tav is rnd and not really an MC, hope they get together.

Act 2




Versus Act 3



Decided to get screenshots of this 180. In act 3 she's suddenly fine with being the spare lover as long as she can get a threesome. Literally told her I want Halsin more than her and she's just okay with it because... they needed to force a poly romance in the game I guess?

With the late addition of Halsin as a companion and poly romances becoming a thing, they didn't have proper time to implement it consistently throughout the story unfortunately. If your Tav/Durge is attracted to him and like the idea of a poly romance with your other established romance partner, it's a nice addition to experience that. Personally I feel in this particular case poly romances aren't implemented well unfortunately, precisely for the reason you are showing with the sudden shift in character without inbetween on-screen character development portraying this change and also a severe lack of communication with the established romance partner on how you view things together.

To be able to add in Halsin's romance and particularly poly options so late into development, to me it seems that too much surrounding Halsin's romance and other companions behavior towards poly romances had to be turned on its head at too short notice. I think it would have been a lot healthier of an approach to have the start of a potential poly romance and/or open relationship beginning with discussing the option with the established romance partner. Not just a few lines, but a full dialogue on how both sides look at things, what they are or are not okay with, why they view things a certain way... these kinds of things. If you could start the conversation with them first and come to a healthy balance with enthusiastic consent, boundaries, trust and openness first, only then you can begin with outside influences as potentially adding other people into the mix. Starting the path towards a poly and/or open relationship with "hey that person that's been travelling with us wants to be involved with me romantically/sexually" to me is a very awkward and unhealthy way to begin a conversation on potentially changing the established relationship.

And this being a video game, player agency in these things is extremely important because for a lot of people these roleplaying experiences are a way to escape all the messy and confusing real life interpersonal connections and take control over your own fictional story so you can really get immersed into it and attached. To have that feeling for two full acts, to experience a carefully crafted story and development of characters individually and relations with each other, only for them to then get a whiplash of sorts because of a late addition of something (in this case poly romance options for Halsin) that isn't as thoroughly written and developed as what came before, is understandably disappointing and frustrating for people.

If you're already acquainted with poly romances and/or open relationships, it's easier to look past the sudden jank of a tacked-on new companion romance with poly options and head canon how an established romance partner might off-screen work their way towards a shift that's now written for Shadowheart's views between act 2 and act 3 for example. For it to be a healthy development and portrayal of a poly romance, it should still definitely start with a conversation with the romanced partner first and working everything out together before even entertaining the idea of introducing someone else into the relationship, but with the way that's it's written now, it's clear to me they rushed past that to get to the "juicy bits" of characters banging each other.

If you're not acquainted with poly romances and/or open relationships though, or if you're personally against your Tav/Durge being involved in anything other than a monogamous relationship, to me the current way these romance/sex options are hastily written are very damaging for the established view on the romance path you've built up to that point. Because to me this late addition and option feels so tacked-on, it's a horrible introduction to something beyond monogamous relationships. Bluntly put, it's a dude barreling into your established relationship and inviting himself where he is not (yet) welcome. If you then tentatively broach the subject with your established romantic partner, not even because it's something you want to do but because you're confused by what the third party just suggested, your partner's first response is to enthusiastically go for it without them even considering what your own views actually are. To me, with the way it's currently written, a lot of player agency and consent is out of the picture and all parties are super excited before you've even had a chance to process what was even really suggested and that adds a lot of pressure in what is supposed to be a safe enviroment within your Tav/Durge's relationship.

Then of course things unfortunately go wrong even further because of dialogue flags not properly setting and Halsin seemingly not taking no for an answer if you reject him and him propositioning for sex a few times after desipite your lack of consent, either specifically with you or with you and your romantic partner. Logically you can see this sequences of interactions as (what I hope are) dialogue bugs not flagging the rejection properly, but in the moment in-game your Tav/Durge now has a creep trying to force himself on them and their partner is seemingly okay with that.

In my opinion, there needs to be a lot more care when it comes to approaching a subject of relationships other than "standard" monogamous ones. It's a subject that needs to be approachable and discussable within the game from the outset and at the start of relationships, not tacked-on at the end when you're practically married with the person already. The subject should also be introduced to the player through dialogue options with the romantic partner, rather than a third party suggesting the option. And there should be player agency in a video game in how to approach it and what their decision is, rather than the established romance partner taking that agency away and telling their views before you've had the chance share yours. And only once a baseline and balance of enthusiastic consent, boundaries and trust is reached within your established romantic relationship, only then should other parties be thrown into the mix. Because the writing regarding poly romances and open relationship did not get the necessary attention and care it should have for such a complex subject, it currently strongly pushes people away that are new to these topics. And therefore I find it very unsurprising that it alienates people from these concepts, that it sours their platonic relationship with Halsin in current and future playthroughs, and to some extent also damages their established romantic relationship in that playthrough because in some aspects the established partner suddenly seems like a stranger to them compared to how their on-screen character development was going in the first two acts.

Tbh there's no real way to show this change naturally. Her acceptance of being a third wheel in a relationship in Act 3 is just so wildly out of character compared to her Act 2 self it's simply not possible

With the current writing it's absolutely impossible in my opinion, I agree. If the writers would have had this idea from the start and would have written this development from act 1 on, it would have been feasible to have several of the current companions feeling this way in act 3. Because they only added Halsin's romance late in development and added the poly romance option specifically for Halsin so late in development, there's no way to organically write Shadowheart's change in views on relationships between act 2 and act 3 and make it make sense.

A popular opinion is that, with different writing in act 1 and 2, both Karlach and Shadowheart could have been written to be okay with such a relationship for example. Karlach's current dialogue in act 1 even contains "I know you and hairdo girl have something happening, but keep a piece left over for me, hmm? I won't always be too hot to touch.". That's still by far not enough within the current writing to make a poly romance between them and your Tav/Durge believable, especially considering the ultimatum in act 2 that pushes for exclusivity, but they had a little bit of groundwork there if they really wanted to rewrite companions to be accepting of poly romances. But the fact is that they didn't rewrite anything concerning that in act 1 and act 2, they only added things in act 3 and only specifically for other companions together with Halsin. And as there is no groundwork for any companion in act 1 and 2 for this to become a thing in act 3, to me it completely misses the mark and makes every companion involved in this seem out of character.