Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

Thanks for your answer, but since RQ said right after you that Larian only changes things if it suits their own visions, then there is no further discussion for me. Thanks also to The Red Queen for making it clear that there is no point in demanding agreement to get Larian to make changes.

I mean, Tav's facial expressions have nothing to do with Larian's vision of AA. His actions remained the same. It's only about Larian's vision of Tav's reaction. Fans said that Larian took away their agency since their Tav would be happy with such treatment. That's a good point. Larian is all about players' freedom.
More than that, they continued to reinforce AA as controlling and verbally abusive, in my opinion. His new line: "You didn't leave me, I let you go" confirms it for me.
So, since, in my opinion, Larian's vision of AA is still the same, I really hope that Larian brings back the agency to the other side of this argument too (with an option to choose, as I've already requested) and let us play how we were playing all these 6 months before Patch 7. It would be a fair treatment, not favoring only one Tav's RP instead of the other. Not all fans want to see their Tav being happy with such treatment, this reaction is completely valid, and this game is all about personal RPs and players having freedom in how they imagine their Tavs.

Thanks for the video, quite a bit of interesting stuff in there. The full quote goes like this:

“About Astarion, um, about him as a character, or about the experience of the character, or, sure, I just love the fact that his incessant drive and desire to be utterly and free for unshackled by other people's opinions of it, uh, still with the capacity of being able to be a friend, or fall in love, or be a terrible-terrible person.”

Neil talks about the versatility of Astarion's character, his “incessant drive” (which he managed to convey perfectly with his acting) and that Astarion is alive, like any living person, he is capable of being a friend or falling in love, and can sometimes be a “terrible-terrible person” (note the intonation with which he said this, and the chuckles in the audience afterwards :)). Some players find Astarion's behavior “terrible” as early as the first chapter, and other companions in the game find it so regularly, probably including when Astarion is bantering with them. Before the Ascension, after the Ascension... There's no hint in Neil's words that it's the Ascension that makes Astarion “terrible”, or, much less, that Astarion is magically torn in two, like, one is friendly and loving and the other is “terrible”. And, what I was particularly impressed with (besides the joke about Astarion's “terribleness”) was what Neil said about Astarion: “desire to be utterly and freely for unshackled by other people's opinions of it”. And yes, you can feel it in Astarion. After Cazador tried to break Astarion, including endless humiliation (in the dialog with Cazador before the fight, depending on the choice of lines, Cazador belittles one or another trait of Astarion's character), Astarion still remained himself. And, literally from the first meeting with him, Astarion begins to periodically demonstrate his flamboyant character, regardless of the opinions of others. And after Ascension, he sheds all his masks and is finally free of any dependence on other people's opinions of him. It's very pleasant to watch this.




You have indeed stated your concept in detail and clearly, certainly your efforts deserve respect. The only thing that is not clear to me specifically is one aspect of your concept, namely that your base of argument is built on essentially one thesis - AA and UA are completely different. It's as if two different people “hatched from the same egg”. Could you explain what this thesis itself is based on? If you imagine a person who finds himself in a situation where he has “power” (conditionally) and can afford to behave the way he wants, then, of course, he will behave differently than he would in a situation where he is vulnerable and dependent to some degree. But he will not become “different.” His attitude toward those he loves will certainly not change dramatically. I would be interested if you could explain this particular thesis of yours in more detail. The fact that Astarion himself says that he has changed is hardly to be taken literally, Astarion's words do not always fully reflect the facts. It may simply speak of his rejection of his former self, because of what he has been through. Astarion has self-esteem and self-acceptance issues, this is also something to consider when analyzing his lines. Voice lines - UA's voice sounds more dull at times than his voice sounded in Act 2, he sometimes sounds a bit suppressed and his “theater” is noticeable in places. Astarion after the Ascension is occasionally showing off and making a show of himself. Astarion has a very rich timbre, from lower tones to higher tones, and it does vary over the course of the game, depending on the emotions Astarion is feeling. Is there a strong argument that Astarion should suddenly start treating someone who helped him and “gave him everything” badly, but tenderly and reverently to someone who didn't?

I agree. I worry that the feedback will get buried under when the thread got a bit off topic (though it was interesting conversation!), so I want to bring it back to this point. I just want things to be fair for all sides. It is interesting to me how everyone has a different interpretation of AA and I appreciate the different view points from both sides. I won't get into details on my interpretation, because I don't think it's that important to my feedback to Larian.

My main issues are that potentially triggering content in this route is not obvious to the player beforehand, and that players do not have the freedom to choose how they want their Tav/Durge to react. I think those two things are very serious, and I've seen the negative impact it had on myself. Larian cannot warn players of every possible trigger beforehand, but many people do see AA's added kisses as rough. I think player safety needs to be prioritized in this case. Fair warning, I am about to talk a bit more about intimate partner violence and SA but there is nothing graphic.

I completely agree with the OP.

A complex story about a cycle of abuse has been cheapened. It's now just a kinkster story. Sad.

Since this posted in the suggestions and feedback subforum I have this suggestion:

A. While I do congratulate the fans of AA for convincing the devs to change their mind - they have shown us what tireless effort and passion can produce - I also think

B. Larian should release a statement saying that the threats made to the authors of the original story played no positive role in its decision to revise the kissing scenes

If I were throw up a rough draft it would look something like

" . . . the threats made to Larian employees played no positive part in our decision to alter any of the game material. Indeed such behavior initially promoted us to dig in our heels and refuse to comply with fan requests. We only had change of heart when we considered feedback from fans who found ways to express themselves . . . "

If the issue is the kisses being too rough for some players, then would having a toggle to turn off the current kisses and replace them with the gentler kisses from earlier patches work?

Personally, that would work for me. I'm not sure if it would be hard for Larian to do or not, but that would also make me happy. Perhaps "Kiss me and make it hurt" versus "KIss me gently?" Mirroring the options the player has in the turning scene. I think at some point someone said they roleplayed their character as naive and happy in the relationship at first, but then later growing unhappy. I wouldn't want to shut off those types of role-play, which can logically flow from the story of the route. So I'd have to think more about that. But I do like the bones of this idea.

Yeah, I’m not sure how the coding / toggle would work either, but I like your suggestion a lot! I suggested that as an opinion though since I’ve seen a few say that the kisses being rougher was triggering (and then the facial animations seem to either make that worse or better depending on the person). It is a change from the Act 2 kisses, and may catch people off guard.

I’m not sure if it’s any consolation, but I do think some modders have been trying to change some of the kisses available. I think the Nightgale mod used a combination of different character kisses, and have had some friends use that since they didn’t like the rougher kisses. Hopefully, we can continue to get more mods like that too. It be nice if console players had this options though without mods.

We've been through this already. At this point, it's extremely unfair to ask Larian to work on AA's kisses the third time in a row and add even more, when Spawn only has one kiss from a horrible angle. It's just extremely unfair.
If Spawn had at least the same amount of kisses, I would have agreed with this offer.
But as we have it now, as both AA and Spawn fan, I'm absolutely against it.



I've seen people in some places already claiming that "Larian is normalizing abuse" by these facial expressions, so I do now begin to worry about Larian, if they don't make a statement, I just hope it won't spiral into something crazy.
It really worries me. I don't want to see anybody starting a cancelling campaign against Larian.

I read SpookyBookey's post as suggesting an option to only see the original, gentler AA kiss. So it wouldn't be adding anything extra that didn't already exist. I am definitely against adding more AA kisses when Spawn Astarion already has so few.

i dont think the animations for AA should be changed at all. like it was previously said, his animations need to be rough to 1. show the difference between UA and AA and 2. because it is fitting for his behaviour. he is more dominant, confident and he knows the power he holds. i understand that the kisses themselves can be triggering for people, but it is at the players discretion to pursue this path, even without knowing what ascension might entail, this is a consequence of your actions in a game about consequences. at many points in the game there are hundreds of possible triggering situations. (implied) SA, violence, spiders, fire, blood, death.. all possible triggers. again, i am not saying getting triggered once is okay, of course nobody should be uncomfortable playing a game, but it is at your own discretion to keep playing certain paths. so if you decide to ascend astarion and go to kiss him, and dont like the animations, you are free to break up or go back to UA. but there needs to be player and player character agency in the response to the rougher dynamic. you cannot expect everyone to enthusiastically take it, exactly the same as you cant expect everyone to be shocked or fearful at such behaviour. there are many valid reaons why tav would and would not like the kisses AA gives.

This isn’t about unascended versus ascended Astarion, or the amount of content they each got. I really don’t care who has more kisses or not.

Someone brought up that the rougher kisses were triggered to them, especially with ‘happier’ facial expressions. There have been individuals that have said the rougher kisses have the potential to be triggering depending on the facial expression present. To prevent anyone from receiving facial expressions that may be triggered to them if they do not like the rougher kisses, my suggestion was a toggle for gentler kisses. They could even be the same ones from Act 2, or an earlier patch.

Well, maybe you don't care, but I, as a fan of both routes, very much do care.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't play this game on release, I've only joined later, but I thought that AA originally only had 1 simple kiss like peck on the lips, no?
Honestly, it's a pretty bad substitute for me as a AA fan, tbh. I play it as a toxic romance, so I'm okay with him being rough as long as my Tav shows appropriate reaction for my taste.

BlueScaliesxx98, well said. MTE.

that would work if the gentle / painful options had switched results. unless someone can link me a credible source that it is not the case, i am convinced that the "be gentle" option results in a more painful outcome: biting wrist and neck instead of only the neck. yes, there is a kiss on the hand, but also a second bite. if there was only a kiss and then neck bite, i am fully with it being more gentle. so since i am personally against adding new animations to AA kisses (from patch 5 of UA) i dont think this will work as intended.

Well, it's obvious I support making it easier to avoid triggers. And as a huge Astarion fan, I want to be able to romance him comfortably while experiencing this path. But I agree with you that AA is different from UA and the new kisses demonstrate his character well. Which is why even though I personally dislike them, I don't want them removed. And I also agree with you both that there are a number of valid reasons why Tav/Durge might look happy or unhappy about being handled roughly. It's a difficult situation and I hope Larian will find some way to make as many people happy as they can.

First everyone had a peck.

Then Astarion, Wyll and iirc Halsin got the peck replaced with one unique kiss.

With patch 6 everyone got new kisses and the smooches were divided for Ascended and Spawn.

i will also add to my previous message: there needs to be player and player character agency, as in deciding if they like it or not, without changing AA as a character. this is why i am against adding or changing the animations themselves. there is a difference, even if you dont agree that he changed as a person, you can clearly hear and see different behaviour in him. since he is different / behaves differently, the romance has to reflect that in a true manner. personally, i have never ever ever seen anyone complain about the animations themselves (if there were concerns here i apologize i must have missed those), and i have been in A LOT of discussions on reddit about this through out the year that the game has been out. from people begging for AA to get fitting kisses pre patch 6, to praising larian for adding them in patch 6 to now with patch 7.

from the very beginning when patch 6 was introduced, larian was praised for adding exactly these animations (and facial expressions). they already went back to change the faces, its not fair to ask 1. larian to change the animations, which for sure take even longer than faces and 2. take something that is specific to AA away.

I’ll let the insinuation that I don’t enjoy and play both routes slide. We obviously won’t agree.

My suggestion was based on @Yume (and others) mentioning that they didn’t like the rougher kisses. Personally, I find the scared/frightened facial expressions upsetting, so I would prefer no one else to have to stumble across them during their gameplay (especially since it caught many off guard that had been playing since release as what was suppose to be a fun Valentine’s Day update). This is unfortunately a topic it seems that someone will always be unhappy and that’s disappointing.


Yes, there are people that have said they don’t like the rougher kisses including individuals on these forums. I personally like them. That’s is why I suggested a toggle option above.

Unfortunately, the facial expressions whether they will be happy or scared/frightened seem to be a point of heated debate. I believe you previously talked about compromise. In compromise to prevent people from encountering kisses that could be triggering, I think having a gentle option would work. This could be older patch kisses, or even the current unascended Astarion kisses. That’s my suggestion.

this is not the debate though. the debate is about the facial expressions. what you suggest still removes the agency to decide whether or not you like the new behaviour from AA which can only be conveyed through the facial expressions. only because he has a gentler kiss, does not mean tav likes the relationship. that is why the facial expressions were praised in the first place and needed to be added. adding a kiss from patch 5 will still force the player and character into the narrative that they like it because both will be smiling.

edit: also sorry to everyone who doesnt like the animations for AA kisses, but i think changing those will be an even greater problem and will lead to even more outrage. honestly at this point, sometimes i am even sorry to have brought up the suggestions at all. i will personally just live with whatever facial expressions tav shows, i dont care. but changing the animations themselves i will definitely not agree with.

You make a great point and I didn't think of that. I will be satisfied with anything Larian does as long as:
1. Players know that they will get rough treatment before asking for a kiss. That way, they can still choose to avoid potentially upsetting content.
2. Player agency to decide if their characters like or dislike the kisses is preserved.

(Edited slightly because I reflected more due to the conversation and reverted back to my original stance. I agree the rougher AA kisses fit his character. A gentle-only option doesn't make sense since he is more dominant in personality now. I previously liked the gentle idea due to my personal preferences. But I want to make suggestions that I think please the most amount of players, while still matching the route characterization.)