Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

Warning: discussion of SA and the Harleep scene.

This is a very good suggestion, I also don't think PC would be shocked every time they now kiss Astarion, I can see them possibly doing it the first, maybe even the second time.


I'd like to suggest this again (anyone can disagree!). But, I'd like to point out that Minthara's kisses are somewhat rough, nowhere near as rough as AA's but to an extent they could be viewed as a little rough. She will have her cute evil face and then grab the player into a hug kind of forceful or same with going in for a kiss. After both of those specific kisses Minthara will have a sweet, playful smile. I think the same could be used for AA, he has his evil smirk in the beginning but once the kiss is done he has a playful smile. I can almost say that is what he is doing with bite kiss, I think that is why that specific kiss is my favorite out of all AA and UA kisses.

I don't know if this is a good idea to everyone but maybe a suggestion?

After the biting finishes he gives the player character a single sweet kiss, the player character leans into it and gets a face slap as a reward. There is nothing playful about this, he enjoys being cruel to the player character and that's it. Which is why I think it is such a horrible idea to ask for this kiss for the unascended route as well, which does not have any kind of "perhaps you are enjoying to degrade yourself" framing, but is a partnership between equals as stated by the dialogue post Cazador.

And agreed, Steeltempest.

Once again, Tav's expressions is only half of the problem. Any new player can very much be triggered by AA's treatment of Tav in the first place: biting, choking and putting them on their knees without discussing such rough treatment with them before.
And yeah, personally, I play this romance for it's toxicity, I DON'T want to see Tav being happy with such treatment at all. These scared faces was in there for 6 months! A lot of players have already built their entire RPs and headcanons around it. And then suddenly, after half a year, Larian takes our agency away from us and validates the completely opposite side of RP, which doesn't fit into our playthroughs at all.
If Larian didn't want any players to RP and interpret this romance as abusive, they shouldn't have implemented AA refusing to break up with Tav and taking their freedom away in the first place. In my opinion, they shouldn't have shown how extremely awful AA is with Origin Karlach when he can't turn her so he insults her. They shouldn't have shown how AA constantly reinforces how he has the complete and utter control over Tav's body and soul: "You didn't leave me, I let you go". For many people AA is already described as an abusive partner in multiple scenes in the game and changing Tav's expressions here doesn't change AA's overall characterizarion for many people. This opinion and interpretation is just as valid as "AA isn't abusive at all and he loves Tav in a healthy way".

I'm absolutely against it. It has been discussed already: Larian spent their time and resources on AA's kisses TWICE already, while Spawn still has only one new kiss from a horrible angle and no additional variants to the question: "What we are to you", etc.
At this point it's completely unfair. Spawn feels utterly neglected compared to AA. Give us an option to choose, fix his epilogue and move on already, please.

I was not suggesting this for spawn in my previous thread I did but I then retracted my statement, I am suggesting this is for only AA because this thread is about AA not spawn. My personal opinion was the bite kiss is my personal favorite of all his kisses. I personally do not see AA slapping tav/durge in that specific kiss nor do I see him as being cruel. I can see how others do but my mind suggests otherwise. Adding playfulness to his kisses could potentially make the kisses seem less harsh and controlling/abuse. This is only my opinion please do not think I am trying to make your opinion feel less superior. I'm merely trying to suggest a compromise.


Spawn is very much so neglected! I again will say I am very much on board to have the options but not everyone is. Which is why we need to find a common ground. We can't move past it if people are continuing to argue or differ opinions unfortunately. I wish it was easy but its not.

Perhaps this is because of my lack of interest in the kisses looking particularly good, so I've never really cared about the Spawn angles, but I have to say I don't really feel Spawn was neglected in comparison to AA or anything. Yes, there is a disparity in the amount of kisses, but other than small details like that (the other thing I can think of is AA having like 3 different "What are we to you" responses, and the much needed conversations around Tav becoming a Spawn- it makes sense those are included and they aren't for Spawn, and Spawn also gets special stuff AA doesn't have like responses to half-Mindflayer or Durge Tav) I don't really see one being favoured over the other by Larian?
I also felt that, in terms of narrative, the story bends over itself to say that Spawn is the "right" path (in terms of that being his good ending), to goofy degrees that detract a bit from the dialogue, so in that sense he was the one that felt favoured to me. Like, going through that path, I was like "wow, the writers have a strong bias for Spawn and that might not be for the best sometimes". I don't know if I'm right in that assessment, but that's what it felt like to me.
I'd also say the Cazador aftermath scene is so, so much better for Spawn (the way I describe it is that the Ascension scene feels like a super epic power fantasy where you're like "Whoaa that was cool", but you won't be thinking that much about it afterwards, while the crying scene shakes you to your core for a while in how well it's done and how raw it is) but that's also not really the writer's intent, that was Neil improvising and thinking it felt right to do that, otherwise the scenes would be on much more equal footing.

No one has brought it up here, but in a similar vein, I find it weird when people say Astarion himself in his entirety is hated or neglected by Larian, when he's clearly extremely favoured in terms of being given content. I don't complain because I like him, so I'm "privileged" in that.

Well, that is all to say, I don't think it's a priority either that Spawn gets reworked and/or new kisses.

This whole thread is about AA's kisses. And you call it 'a small detail'? And you say it isn't a priority when you are literally in the thread dedicated to kisses?
I mean, all the other companions have 4-8 new kisses (counting the endgame ones), while Spawn has one. From an awful angle. And instead of evening this out, Larian worked on AA's kisses again.
You really think it's fair? As a fan of both AA and Spawn (for different reasons), I strongly disagree with you.

1. It has been like this from the start. Kisses were introduced in Patch 6.
2. AA is awful to a mindflayer Tav and he also reinforces how Tav's beauty is so important to him, so it makes total sense that these dialogues are only for Spawn. But it's not something you can repeat. AA has his own dialogues about Spawn Tav of his own to compensate it already.
3. When Spawn's fans complained that Larian doesn't give them agency to choose to run after Spawn burning in the sun, Larian completely ignored this request, instead they spent their time to fix AA kisses.

AA was never meant to be depicted as a good path, it was always intended to be his evil path. So how can it be unfair? It is what it is. What's the point of even having Spawn's path if AA were described as his good path as well? (and by "good" I mean "the opposite of evil"). It's not a bias, this is how Larian wrote these characters. No one is forcing you to choose Astarion's evil path, it's your choice completely. I Love AA BECAUSE he is evil. He doesn't need to be good.
It really doesn't matter, because in terms of the amount of content, Spawn is definitely feels neglected compared to AA. It has nothing to do with who is evil and who is a good person. That's not the point at all.
Yes, AA is extremely favored in terms of content. There are two different paths. Imagine how Shadowheart's fans would have felt if only DJ Shadowheart had several decent kisses, while more popular route Selune Shadowheart had only one new kiss with a bad camera work?

EDIT:

Thank you for understanding.
I think there is a simple solution: don't change any animation, give people an option to choose between two already existing animations. That's all. Simple, quick and effective.
Problem solved.
But the other side just doesn't want to compromise at all. They want the game to validate their RP and their RP only.

I feel things might be getting very heated if this is the reply to a quite milquetoast opinion from me. Have I not stated liking both paths several times? I've been one of the people asking for more neutral expressions for AA kisses since the beginning.

To your second bullet point, then this could've meant getting a dialogue branch for AA disliking Half-Mindflayer Tav, but it wasn't included. If people wanted to, they could complain about that.
To your third, Tav running after Spawn is much more complicated to the flow of the ending scene than the kisses.

And to the final paragraph: I'm seriously puzzled as to where do I say I don't like AA for his evilness. Yes, that's what I seek in his route. It's pretty obvious. I never said he needs to be described as a good path as well. What I'm saying though, is that his good route is clunkily written in not trusting the viewer to figure things out themselves, so they just beat you over the head with it, when it'd feel much more natural if Astarion didn't look straight into the camera and went "Oh yeah I broke the cycle of abuse and stuff", which I think is obvious to anyone who is willing to engage with the story, so it feels goofy when he makes it clear like that was necessary.
A feeling of neglect is also pretty subjective, so at least when it comes to me: I didn't feel that.

EDIT: I'd also like to include that the difference in the complaints about the Spawn kisses and the AA kisses are very different in nature and how they'd have to be prioritised. Bad angles do not equal goofy, RP breaking expressions for some players.

I'm going to have to politely disagree. Spawn and AA have unequal content at the moment. I thoroughly believe if AA has three kisses then spawn should. If AA has different kiss dialogues then spawn should. Currently spawn has kiss dialogue that is bugged and for whatever reason Larian is taking their time to fix it even though modders were able to fix it very quickly. Same goes for content with Spawn that AA doesn't get, we should be able to tell AA that durge is afraid they will kill them similar to spawn.

All I want is the equal content but again this is a AA thread we should focus on that aspect.

Why? For people to complain about it again, so that Larian deletes it later?
Like I said, AA already has his own dialogues about Spawn Tav. He also has much more explicit sex scene with them.


But this is about the quality of writing, it has nothing to do with how much attention was paid to Spawn vs Ascended.
It's a completely different topic.

It could have been resolved in a different ways, also, Tav is silent, so you don't even need to record voiced lines for them. I think it was completely doable - to show that Tav at least cares - as much as fixing AA kissing animations.

Ehm, the kisses are a small detail in the greater scheme of things and as someone who runs around mostly with spawn (one way or the other) I do not mind that he only has two kisses. I would like the second kiss to have a nicer angle, yes, but if I could choose between the angle being improved for non-tall player characters (because it is a beautiful kiss for tall characters) and having that awful "I will protect you" line changed into something thoughtful. I would absolutely take the latter.

I also don't think Astarion needs multiple endgame kisses, Gale does because he can be utterly suicidal during the endgame. Before patch 6 you might have gotten into a situation in which you had to talk him out of sacrificing himself without previously getting a real sense of how desperate he really is - which was heartbreaking, especially since it is a long dialogue. You might also loose him during endgame and get no happy end with him at all, depending on your choices. So yes, I think it's fair that people who romance the designated sacrificial lamb get some extra smooches here because they have narrative purpose, they aren't just fluff.

And back to topic.

(Edit: Just to prevent the ruffling of feathers, I was also replying to uneven content between UA and AA and I didn't feel like quoting a giant text block.)

@Rote90 Um, well, it doesn't really matter what people think about it, when it comes to discussing content disparities. The truth is, for those dialogues, Spawn has content AA doesn't when he reasonably could have it. I don't have a bias for either route so I say this from the most neutral perspective I can have, any differences in content are small enough to be irrelevant in terms of how I enjoy both routes of the character.

The explicitness of the sex scene is also, I feel, trivial. I'd argue it'd feel strange to have a explicit sex scene at the graveyard, in a meta sense. Seeing nothing feels much better for that route. That is not a loss I feel when playing that route, but rather a net gain.

And I do feel that how a route is written can make it feel like a path is favoured over the other in the writers' eyes, so that's where the nature of how things are written comes into play. I'm not sure what WOTC's plans will be for the character if any at all, but all I could think while playing was "oh, the writers want Spawn to be the canon route huh?" The same goes for Selunite Shadowheart. I'm not saying them being favoured narratively is necessarily wrong or the wrong move, I'm just saying that's what it feels like, which is why I'm somewhat surprised when people think AA is favoured. Aiming for the exact same amounts of content or lines or small details is just not the most important when judging routes as a whole. Every character or route will have different privileges or details others don't, it just happens.

I also don't have a bias for either route, I play and love both routes and for me it's extremely noticeable.
As I've said: AA already has his own dialogues about Spawn Tav. He also has much more explicit sex scene with them (even if it's justified). This is his compensation for Spawn's dialogue about Half-Illithid Tav and Durge. Spawn scene at the docks also isn't fixed to give Tav any agency. These are objective facts from the game.

If kisses are such a small detail, then it makes it even more unfair that Larian spent their time twice on AA's "small detail" and didn't bother with Spawn at all.
Like I said, maybe for you it doesn't matter, but it's strange to tell this to people that this is how it should be in a thread dedicated to kisses.


Gale has 4 endgame kisses! 4! And you can only trigger one of them per a playthrough. Why do we even need this? You can't trigger them all at once.
It would have made much more sense to leave Gale with one endgame kiss and give three others to Spawn.
Shadowheart has equal amount of kisses for both routes.
It feels extremely biased and unfair for no apparent reason.

After what happened with Sarevok and Viconia, I'm pretty sure WOTC will choose AA and will make him a villain in BG4.
Like I've said, I'm not talking about writing, it's completely subjective. I'm totally fine with Larian's vision, because Spawn was meant to be a good path and AA is an evil path. I like how both of them are written.
But the amount of content is very much an objective thing.

No, he does not. But every companion deserves one endgame kiss. Not the select few that got it. Gale can have his four but everyone deserves at least one unique one.

You can trigger them all at once. Smooch Gale at the Morphic Pool to your heart's content. I am also very much in favour in letting the animators do the stuff they feel invested in, this time they obviously had loads of fun fiddling with Shadowheart's new camp animations which are adorable.

I also have to ask, how is a more or less explicit sex scene favouritism? The point is giving them lovely conclusions to their character arcs and the graveyard does that. It would be cuter if the "lets just sit here for a while" option was a little less stiff, but that's about it.

You know, after thinking about it, I changed my opinion. If you can trigger them all at once, it's even more unfair for Gale to have 8 kisses vs 1 for Spawn.
It's not like Gale has to die. It's too much of a disparity for me to be okay with it. Gale still has all the epilogues and endgame content as others, it's still there. You can play second playthrough and don't sacrifice him and experience even more. You can even marry him! Which you can't do with any other character. Yep, extremely unfair.
Definitely a favouritism for me.

Because more explicit scenes are much more fun for a lot of people. I'm not saying that this is how it should have been for Spawn, but the other user brought up Spawn's dialogues about Illithid-Tav and Durge, so I've said that this explicit scene totally compensates it, even if, personally, I'm okay with a graveyard scene.
Once again, AA also has dialogues about Spawn Tav, so it totally evens things out.

Not to mention that now, with the evil endings, AA has even more kisses.
It's totally skewed in AA's favor.

I am not entirely sure if you are employing irony there Rote, because it seems so absurd, that you feel slighted that the character who has no huge dungeon dedicated to him and no big, complex final animation to his quest (Unless you blow him up. Gale's show down with the Absolute is awesome - but still a very simple animation.) because the resolution to his quest are literally a few seconds of dialogue during the dock scene, is shown favouritism over Astarion and his piles of content because of a few kisses?

And I disagree, explicitness does not make a scene more fun, though it might make it more cringe or ridiculous. What makes a scene more fun is careful, clever cinematography - we could now walk down the path of discussing the purpose of a certain candle, but I rather wouldn't, as I overall find the last-night-alive rather cheesy, if intentionally so. Personal opinion again. I am also not the greatest fan of the act 1 scene either.

I think you should think about this game in a different way than just in terms of “good” and “evil”. Good and evil defined our morals and ethical views. These mechanisms only work to a limited extent in a fantasy world. From my point of view, UA is the tragic end, even if morally he may be the “good” one, while AA, as an “evil” character, now enjoys life with his beloved consort as compensation for 200 years of torture and misery. Morally, of course, you ask yourself why UA doesn't have that too, he also experienced this misery and that's where the tragedy lies for me, he rejected the supposedly evil act. In our world no one sacrifices 7000 souls, but in Faerûn it is something that a vampire will definitely pay and as a Dark Urge I ask why it took 200 years to collect 7000 souls with 7 spawns, doesn't sound effective to me."I don't see why AA should be the one, who should be seen and understood as a tragic figure in a world that doesn't share our moral ideas. I therefore think the final adjustments to AA are very well done, because they now show AA as the character who he should have always been, the villain who has won everything and gets his happy ending. Surely there are always things that could have been better from a subjective perspective, but for me that would be "complaining on a high level".

I don't really care about the number of kisses, I honestly don't know who has how many because I didn't kiss Astarion for over 6 months after Cazador's death and I was never interested in the rest. But I don't think, that everything musst be equal . I don't envy others or feel like I'm being treated unfairly as a result.

Unsure if aimed at me, if so, I just wanted to say my ending comparisons don't really rely on pure morality all that much (AKA I don't really focus much on 7K deaths), but on what it means for the character psychologically. I love dwelling into what Ascension represents in terms of Astarion's insecurities, fears, and relationship with the world and what Tav's response to it means to him in the end in regards to confirming or challenging those. But I'm aware that this is very disputed on these threads, so it's just an agree to disagree situation.

Larian did not work on AA's patch 6 kisses twice. The kisses are exactly the same. The only thing they did was make a few tweaks to Tav's facial expressions, which I doubt took much.

Yes. Choosing a darker path doesn't mean you can't love or find happiness with your partner. I don't like to look at it in such an oversimplified way, when there's plenty of nuance to reflect on and enjoy.
I always saw this game as a fun fantasy game and not some lecture about real world problems where everything is a depressing metaphor.^^