Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion and Shadowheart Poly interactions

Nah, they really watered down Ascended Astarion. Honestly, there should have been a scene, where he compels Tav not to go with Karlach to Avernus or with Lae'Zel. Instead, he is like: "You didn't leave me, I let you go". At this point, even though he still doesn't allow to break up with him, he looks like he really isn't even that much obsessed and he just doesn't care about Tav much (because, obviously, he is evil and very selfish, so he did let them go not because he really cares about helping Lae'Zel or Karlach, like Spawn does). He is making himself a whole army of other spawns, so like... whatever. His writing is all over the place in the end of the game. It's really-really noticeable that his writer left Larian.

I agree with this. There were moments in the game that fell short of showing AA's more possessive, controlling or protective tendencies. As it is it's sometimes inconsistent. Not likely to be changed much now though. -.-

Personally, I see it differently.
If AA has no problem with TAV having a fling with Mizora, it seems logical to me that the same thing happens with Halsin. For AA, I suppose things are on the same level: both Halsin and Mizora are a distraction, a moment of fun. AA's possessiveness is not in not allowing TAV to do what they likes (see also allowing them to follow Karlach into Avernus), but in not allowing them to leave him. He allows TAV to do what they wants, but the deal is that they must stay with him.

I think that's a fair perspective; he still wants them to do what they like and enjoy themselves.

I mean, Tav following Karlach or Lae'Zel and abandoning him for 6 months is exactly "allowing them to leave him".
It looks really weird and out of character for AA. But oh, well. It's too late, I guess.

It's fun to watch your headcanons come into conflict with the game.

In fact, this dialog appeared in the game before patch 7 and was already in the game files, it was even posted on youtube. Perhaps at the same time as the spawn had a new reaction to treason.

As for AA, since the epilogues were added, Tav-spawn could leave AA and she wasn't forcibly dragged to the palace when Tav and Astarion met at a party 6 months later. So I don't understand what OOC there is to talk about.

Yeah, I don't care how long it was or wasn't in the game's files, not the point.

OOC is that when Tav tries to break up with AA before the epilogue, he forces them to stay with him, once again in the epilogue, I ask for freedom, he denies it: "Not this again". I mean, the second time Tav isn't even asking for break up, they literally ask for "FREEDOM".
And AA denies it.
He keeps this Tav as his slave and literally denies them freedom when asked for exactly this, but somehow he is okay to let them to go with Karlach?
Nah.

AA was letting go Tav/DU with Laezel/Karlach back in patch 5, as epilogues came out.
And at the time of patch 5 Rooney was still working at Larian, what kind of leaving can we talk about then?

According to the vampire brides lore, the brides are actually convinced they can be controlled when in fact they aren't, so... The fact that Astarion can't bring back Tav, who broke up with him or left to hang around the Astral Plane, speaks volumes.

Player: Cazador could compel you - can you compel me?
Astarion: Why would I need to? You're going to be wonderfully obedient.

«Although there are some folk tales that describe the bride of a vampire as its slave, in much the same way that offspring are slaves, a bride is free-willed from the moment of her creation. The creator vampire does have great influence over the bride, however, although this control is totally nonmagical. When a vampire is created in the traditional manner - that is, when a victim's life energy is completely drained away - the new fledgling instinctively understands much about the vampiric way of unlife, and about its own strengths. weaknesses, and needs. Not so the bride. Newly-created brides are generally ignorant of their own capabilities. If in life they heard folk tales and myths about vampires, they might have some vague conception, but often these tales are totally wrong. The bride is effectively dependent - totally dependent - on her creator, to learn how to survive as a vampire. This obviously gives the creator great power over the bride. By lying to her or bending the truth, he can convince her that she must obey his every order or suffer horrible consequences. With time, and through experimentation, the bride might find out the true level of control her creator has over her - that is, none. She is still in a very inferior position, of course, because she is a Fledgling and her creator is at least an Ancient.»

1. AA gave no comment about Tav leaving with Karlach or Lae'Zel back in Patch 5, so it doesn't count. His epilogue with a mindflayer Tav makes it look like he is together with them, but it's obviously just a bug. So, the same situation could have been there.

2. Tav is not a vampire bride. They are his Spawn. Confirmed by devnotes and other flags in the datamined files.
It's Larian's canon. Also, AA compels Tav to stay with him when they want to break up in the end. Also canon.

3. For the sake of this argument, let's pretend that Tav is a vampire bride, even though it's not true. Then what, are you saying AA is a good partner for literally gaslighting Tav into thinking they are his slave, because they can't leave him without his permission? "You didn't leave me, I let you go." Nope. Still abuse either way. Still lying to them to deny Tav their freedom.

You realize it's possible to play a spawn PC, break up with Astarion before the end of the game and never get compelled by him to stay right? (Not even saying he can or can't do it. Just saying he always compels spawn Tav is literally not the case).

The interesting thing in that ending is you keep the suns resistance and he's rather "We did have something good together didn't we" at the ending. Honestly it's the most fond I get of AA especially since he admits his loneliness.

Oh man, I love his line about missing Tav and admitting he's lonely. Especially in the face of how hard he copes when he's first dumped, acting like it'll be so easy to replace the PC. Only to show up six months later and swallow his pride enough to admit he didn't. The voice acting is great there. You can hear the bravado, mixed with a tinge of nostalgia.


BUT that brings it back to the relevant topic of the thread. I agree with @celesti. I'm actually surprised how...non-possessive he can be as a Lord. I wouldn't mind him being a tad more vampiric and obsessive in the face of poly scenes and dialogue. I'm surprised AA is so permissive and "do what you wish" with Tav. Compared to normal vampire lore, he is pretty soft with the PC. Not necessarily a bad thing. But couldve been fun to lean into the obsessive nature a bit more.

Obviously it's possible, because he can't compel Tav while the tadpole is still in their head. He never compels this Tav because they literally never stay with him alone in the end if they broke up previously. And if he tried to do it in the presence of other companions, they would have defended Tav and kicked his bottom for it. This perfectly explains why he only forces Tav not to break up with him when they do it in the end, when they are alone with AA.
Confirmed by the epilogues, if you attack AA at the party, everyone joins you against AA.

Actually, thinking about it, I get it now, why he didn't compel Tav not to go with Karlach and Lae'Zel. Because the party would have killed him for controlling and enthralling Tav like that. And of course, he can only compel Tav when they hear his words (confirmed by the epilogue of Spawn Astarion with Cazador still being alive).
All right, I take my words back. This ending with Karlach/Lae'Zel actually makes sense now. It's just that AA lied and gaslighted Tav again.

My whole point is that PC has had *months* without the tadpoles protection at that point and he doesn't force them to join him. Neither does he attempt it at the party.


Yeah the cope does make me chuckle. Man went full "I'll have another you by tomorrow" then had to choke on his words later. I do respect him for being real enough to admit it though.

I like yanderes but I don't really feel AA would be one? Like I dunno he doesn't give me the possessive vibes personally.

For me a yandere Astarion should've jumpscared my dumped him spawn at the ending. XD I didn't get that.

i lowkey wish he was more possessive after the ritual.

I think that it's implied that Tav, who recognized how awful he was and thus broke up with him before he could compel them, knows they can't really see him or he will compel them. These months they just didn't see each other (confirmed by the dialogue, by the way). Maybe Tav even run away from him on purpose.
Once again. He can't compel them at the party. Otherwise all the other companions will kill him for it. He can only be there with already compelled Spawn, because, obviously, he told them not to tell anyone they are with him against their will. Hence, you can ask for freedom, he will deny it at the party, but you can't ask other companions for help, because you are already compelled not to.

And all of this doesn't even matter anyway. He still forces Tav to stay with him in the end, when they want to break up. It's canon. Period. It's like to say that a man who killed one person isn't a killer, because he could have killed two, three, four people, etc.
Just because he didn't do it in some cases doesn't erase the fact that he is willing and able to do it.

Then walks up to him in a party where he can follow them like an idiot? Not to mention there's endings where the player *clearly* stays in Baldur's Gate so like what he didn't bother looking around?

And the reason you can't ask companions for help when you're not being compelled by him? I'm not sure why you're saying this like it's fact instead of your headcanon. Like this is a video game it's quite easy for devs to have a dialogue choice say one thing then have the companions clearly react to something else being said with player going "oh shit". This isn't some impossibility. A star wars MMO did it over ten years ago.

I didn't say he wasn't willing to do it. I said there's a circumstance *in which he doesn't* which is literally in game. Now if you want to argue that it shouldn't *be* in game fair enough but it's been there as long as the epilogue has been.

Canon doesn't explain these things, so yeah, it's my headcanon, but since there is no canonical official explanation to all this, then my headcanon is just as valid as yours. Maybe Tav warned other party members that if they see them with AA again, this means AA enslaved them. Perfectly reasonable explanation. Maybe Minsc, Jaheira, Wyll, who stayed in Baldur's Gate, were looking out for Tav, because they were warned by Tav to defend them against AA.


So? It's like to say: "See? Sometimes this killer doesn't kill people!"

Meanwhile my headcanon is he just left them be because man is too prideful to go crawling after them. :P

Yes it's almost like there's a scenario in which he lets the player go freely and it's relevant to him letting them go to Avernus or something. Crazy I know.

Okay, you are totally entitled to your headcanon, just like I'm entitled to mine. For me it doesn't make sense that AA has no pride to actually let Tav go and not enslave them in the end, but somehow he does the opposite out of his own free will when they break up with him just a few days earlier.
Much more logical explanation to me is that he is just afraid of other companions, because it's canon they are all very worried about Tav, once Tav becomes his Spawn.


Once again, what's your point? Okay, there is such scenario, just like the path where he forces Tav to stay with him is still equally canon. I mean, he literally forces Tav to stay with him the same day he allegedly lets them go out of his own "free will".
These two events directly contradict each other. If he was really okay to grant Tav their freedom, he would have NEVER forced them to stay with him. Instead, he does it twice. At least. Considering he says: "Not this AGAIN", it's implied that Tav regularly asked him to let them go.
My explanation is perfectly reasonable and nowhere does it contradict canon.

Oh I wouldn't argue someone's not entitled to their headcanon. Only when they try to use that headcanon to say canon events don't make sense. It is canon that Astarion lets spawn Tav go on their merry way if they dump him before the brain is dead that's my whole point.

I mean people can be contradictory now how you want to square that is up to one's headcanon I personally go with him being too prideful to be seen as begging for Tav to come back you rather see it as them being afraid of the companions. The game doesn't give a solid answer on that so it's pointless to argue over neither of us can say our way is right or not.