Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

Pls read my message above. Man idk if you can interpret abuse in different ways, but I guess you can. Honestly I can understand how what he does to Tav seems kinky, but outright refusing to acknowledge abusive tendencies is really something else entirely. But we can let that matter rest. This thread is not about the kisses themselves. The three kisses he has are great, I wouldn’t change a thing about them. This is about Tav and I still don’t see how having a choice in ONE dialogue option is a problem.

That's not true. Minthara is even worse than AA. From the moment you start a relationship with her, you never have the chance to break up with her. You are forced to stay with her.
At least with AA, before the end, you can leave him at any time. She also has various dialogues in which she physically threatens the player (for example poisoning).
Even with her, in my opinion, there would be valid reasons to insert expressions of terror/concern, but no one would ever dare to ask that to be inserted during kisses because it is a romance path that, like the others, to obtain it you have to overcome steps, steps that determine consent.


This is one of the main reasons why I am personally against the reintroduction of the expressions from patch 6.
For the game, romance paths are, basically, consensual because, as said before, to obtain them you have to overcome steps and if you accept them it means that it is what you want and, consequently, the TAV appears happy.
If the player/TAV is not satisfied, he can always end the relationship at any time (except with Minthara).
For me it is not about roleplay, no one can take that away from you, no one is stopping you from imagining and playing a TAV who does not have the courage to leave AA or who is afraid of him, but this does not mean that the game must necessarily take this hypothesis into consideration when there is the possibility of ending the relationship. And therefore also to put an option that leads to having a terrified TAV during kisses which are a voluntary action that the TAV performs, and not forced by the NPC.

Having a choice is not a problem if it doesn't kill the character. Having choices that fit the character's personality is not a problem. The kisses from patch 5 would be perfect as a choice. Especially since AA already has them - in the evil endings. If the game reintroduces expressions of fear - the Ascended Astarion will be all but dead to me. And the point of me playing this game? I'll mourn the character, but I won't touch the game again. I think that's why other AA fans here are reacting so strongly. We don't want our favorite character killed off. I don't know how else to convey... that's exactly how I feel about it.

This is exactly how WE feel about it too. This is the hypocrisy. We are not arguing that we should only have patch 6 expressions, we want both since both animations are already done and will only have to be triggered once. You say of patch 6 is bright back you will mourn AA, this is exactly what patch 7 did for us. If you want Tav to be smiling, you only have to choose it. The other expression will not be in your game. But making one OR the other expression canon for everyone is the exact problem we already had with patch 6.

Show me the dialogue where Minthara explicitly forces you not to break up with her, so you can't refuse. I did refuse relationship with her in my own playthrough.
Otherwise, considering that Minthara is still VERY bugged, it's not in the narrative itself, it's just a missing dialogue choices. Which, obviously, should be fixed.

That's exactly what you are doing as well, though.
You are ignoring a lot of instances where the game gives players legitimate reasons to interpret it as abuse. You ignore:
1. Spawn admitting he "wanted to be just like Cazador".
2. The narrative where Tav is not allowed to break up with him
3. Dev notes calling AA's line "abusive"
4. Parallels to repeating the cycle of abuse shown in the scene with Vellioth skull.
5. A lot of AA dialogues where Tav can call him out on being the new Cazador.

Just some examples off the top of my head. Obviously, it's far from all of them.

But most importantly, you ignore all the new romance banter, where companions see Tav/AA bond as abusive. But somehow nobody is asking Larian to take this away from the game. Very strange. Because if anything, for me companions' reactions confirm the abusive nature of this relationship much more than some Tav's facial expressions. For example:
Almost every companion expresses their concern for Tav's wellbeing under AA's control.
If companions interpret this bond as abusive and unsafe for Tav, the player is also allowed to interpret it just as well as they do. It's totally legit and this is in the game itself. Like it or not, if you really don't want other people to see this relationship as abusive, you need to ask Larian to completely rewrite the whole AA/Tav relationship. Otherwise we are completely valid in our request to have an option to choose to play it as we see fit.

I don't want to be contrary just point out that there is a difference between the rotating kisses and the evil endgame one, during the former you ask for a kiss and receive what Astarion is giving you, he is in charge of the situation. During the evil ending sequence, the player character is in charge, you either kiss him or make him kneel. Just as a further ingredient for the discussion.

Personally I am totally with you on the expression during the kneeling kiss, in both patch it’s too much. In patch 6 it looked like Tav was mortified which disappears once he kisses them which doesn’t make sense. In patch 7 many described it as “orgasmic” idk. Optional expressions locked behind a one time toggle is all we want. Nobody is taking anything from you, nobody is taking anything from us. Also agree on the dialogue about the dynamic, which is exactly why I think it is intended as abusive. Were it anything BDSM related, there would’ve been dialogue about it.

Personally, I never thought the only problem with patch 6 was that my roleplay was broken. The biggest problem for me was that they changed the Ascended Astarion. So I don't agree that I'm being hypocritical to any degree when I oppose allowing other players to react to kisses with fear.

Patch 6 kisses themselves aren't non-canon, but expressions of fear definitely are. Because in the case where Tav asked for tenderness, Astarion was gentle.



I'm pretty sure the kisses in patch 6 were a failed fanservice, because a lot of people write everywhere they can that AA scares them. But these are often people who haven't played the AA route themselves.

I encourage Larian to stick to his original script.

Honestly I just take it as Larian's PC expressions are frankly kind of badly overly exaggerated a lot of the time. I'm currently using the stoic expressions mod for my own sanity because so often it just...no. The companions are fine the PC though? Bleh.

The complete lack of the player being able to frankly tell him he's being abusive is what gets me. I don't need clown expressions I want dialogue from the player. I want conversations. Especially since they have him immediately flip a switch instead of doing a slow decline. Or at the very least let me interact with the companions being concerned about it. Give me the player dumping him for being abusive (not this but Cazador shit after it's been 2 days), let my PC actually be able to discuss the aggressiveness of the kisses, give me the player desperately asking other companions for help at the party (and either being stopped via compulsion or the companions agreeing to help off screen). The expressions are just lazy. I want fucking meat if they want to do an abusive plot.

(And I'm someone who likes dead dove content but if you're going to half ass it just don't)

Each character reacts to AA and Tav's relationship according to their worldview. That doesn't prove anything.

Lae'zel: You have shared your new power with your lover, Astarion. I'm surprised - I expected you to turn your back once you got what you wanted.
Astarion: Quite the opposite - I need someone I can trust. And now I know they'll never betray me.

Minthara: Would you ever consider sharing the gift of immortality with me, Astarion?
Astarion: I think not. That is for me and my darling to share.
Minthara: If they have prevented your eyes and fangs from wandering to other necks, it must be a special bond indeed.

Only characters with a good alignment react negatively. Gale's reaction is rather neutral because he himself is neutral.

They didn't change AA with Patch 6 at all. Again, him refusing to let Tav go was always there in the end. When they released the epilogues, they added AA refusing Tav freedom once again. But fans were okay with it and didn't ask Larian to get rid of it.
And also saying that abuser can't be gentle sometimes is a problematic thing to say. His gentle kisses prove nothing, because they don't erase times when he isn't gentle. Him abusing origin Karlch just because she can't be turned, was ALWAYS there.
They never changed AA's personality. Even with Patch 7 changes, all they did was changing Tav's expressions, not his.

Astarion walked the city of Baldur's Gate during 200 years. If he could have asked for help, he would have done it multiple times.
It's obvious that AA compels Tav not to tell anyone at the epilogue party anything that can turn companions against AA. Just like Cazador ordered Astarion not to ask for help, while he was seducing his victims.

Yes, it doesn't 100% prove anything, but obviously, companions aren't written as fools. If they are concerned, this means they have their own legitimate reasons for it.
Which means that the player has total right to have the same interpretation and opinion as they have.
So you really-really better not tell other people that AA 100% wasn't written as abusive and that we have no right to ask for an option to choose.
Our request is just as valid as was yours.
Saying that only your RP is valid and should be canon is just double standard.

@Ryzaki you make a very good point that I've seen quite a few people mention.

That *if* that was the intention of the devs, it was very poorly executed. And bandaiding it with over the top expressions is horrible writing. If we're going with the ab**e argument, why include the biggest demonstration of that in a *skippable cinematic*. Plenty of people don't even do the kisses. AA would need to be, as I think a few others have said, and I agree with, entirely reworked and rewritten, with more dialogue, more unskippable, unmissable demonstrations of that.

All that to say, I don't believe that was ever their intent. Given they advertised the kisses as fan service on Valentine's Day. And his dialogue with Jaheira about him not planning to be "like Cazador", with Jaheira agreeing, and the devs noting his good intentions, I think is a good demonstration of that. Is he a villain, evil, and power hungry? Yep. That's why I like him. But the parallel to Cazador is weak at best. And a stretch, imho.

Also, yes I found it very fun that Minthara gets to be just as possessive>:) she doesn't let you break up, and she also has "youre mine" dialogue, I believe. I love her.

But he really isn't ab**e. Astarion just reacts to the player/Tav's actions. Tav is the initiator of the conflict, always, Astarion reacts to it, gets angry, offended, etc. Like any other character. He himself is never the first to harm Tav. By the way, if you take spawn and break up with him, especially at the end, he will behave so viciously with Tav. Does this mean that he is ab**e? I don't think so, just like AA. This is just a reaction to the fact that the person he trusted leaves him, condemns him, etc. These are obvious things. Everything else that Astarion is toxic, for example, is on the conscience of headcanons.

Please, don't do victim blaming.
Whatever Tav does, they have their right to break up with him and call him out.
It's very problematic what you are saying that a victim is responsible for abuser's actions. VERY problematic.

We don't know the details about that Cazador's friend scene. Maybe Vellioth did it on purpose, allowing him to ask for help, because he wanted a reason to kill Cazador's friend right in front of him.
Different cases.
We have the devnote explicitly stating that the Player can't get away from AA in the end. So it's canon, it's confirmed.

I'm not arguing that it could have been written and implemented better, but this proves nothing except it could have been executed better.

Rote90

It's funny, I've seen the dnd lore about true vampires applied to AA many times in the context that Ascended Astarion is incapable of love and that he has no soul because that's what the dnd lore says. Though the same applies to vampire spawn too. But generally speaking, the process of transformation into a vampire is described in the game itself, lor dnd aside, and it doesn't require blood to create a spawn. Tav's transformation is very atypical. It was just that even if Astarion shared his blood with Tav, it should have already spared her from being controlled by him. That's how it works - a vampire voluntarily shares his blood, and there's also dialog in the game where he says that Tav will drink his blood.


It's confirmed.
In the script it is also confirmed that:

1. Tav and AA love each other. It says so in plain text. They gaze lovingly at one another and enjoying.

Why does this story suddenly have to turn into a rape story? The canon is written in the script.


2. The kneeling / throat grabbing has a voluntary dynamic, not a violent one. If it wasn't for Tav's words,

I don't think he would have started grabbing by the throat at all. If Larian created the kisses based on these scenes, which is obvious since the actions are exactly the same as Tav's transformation scene, then a scared face is out of the question. Based on the script it's safe to say that frightened expressions are not canon.



In fact, nothing in the script or in the dev notes disproves the Tav Bride theory. And many of the circumstantial details even confirm it. «By lying to her or bending the truth, he can convince her that she must obey his every order or suffer horrible consequences.With time, and through experimentation, the bride might find out the true level of control her creator has over her - that is, none.» In the finale, Tav may just not know that she can leave and that there is no control. After all, we don't even see him magically forcing her to do anything. And the fact that Tav is free to leave with Karlach and Lae'zel, and again he doesn't force her back in any way, is pretty telling. If Larian wanted to show a cycle of abuse, why didn't they use the techniques I mentioned earlier?


By the way, another interesting technique for demonstrating mental control from the game Vampire:

The Masquerade:




The game has a clear demonstration of how a vampire controls his spawn. In the epilogue, we see nothing of the sort.




Though I suppose that's what the cycle of abuse is supposed to look like.


That's not true. I've seen many times people suggesting the kisses from patch 5 for AA as a fair alternative that not only fits your character, but also fits the original script.

Can I please remind everyone of the following forum rules:

- While we are aware that sometimes users might want to have these discussions on reference to the games, please try to keep conversations about heavier topics (abuse, sexual assault, etc) within spoilered text with an appropriate warning, so other users can choose if they want to engage.
- Please avoid engaging in sensitive topics

That is, if you feel you absolutely must include discussion of themes of sexual abuse in order to get your point across, please put this in spoiler tags with a clear content warning. And even in spoiler tags, please be very careful and considerate how you discuss, given the sensitive nature of the topic.