Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

Yes, I'm sorry. There are so many people in this thread, that it's hard to keep up with "who said what originally".
It's great, I'm glad that we agree on the option to choose.

This. The patch 7 expressions were triggering to me and I haven't played AA or the game since. It's not fair that only one side gets to be happy, when I love Astarion and love this game. Giving users a choice would be the perfect solution.
Agreed that a one time toggle makes sense.
Agreed. BDSM involves clear communication and involves many elements not included in the AA path at all. For example, discussion + agreement of the dynamic beforehand, safe words/color signs, check-ins, aftercare, ability to stop at any time (removed for Tav/Durge in the epilogue). As someone who DOES like BDSM, there is no indication to me that the AA path is meant to represent BDSM. If that's what the developers intended then they have major changes they need to make to the entire route. It is extremely inaccurate and spreads misunderstandings about actual BDSM that can potentially get real people into unsafe situations. My best conclusion is that it ISN'T meant to represent BDSM at all, or else Larian did no research into it. Abdirak is a much better representation of BDSM in the game.


Personally, if this theory WAS true and AA is lying to Tav/Durge to convince them that they must obey his every order or suffer horrible consequences...that is abuse to me. That would be so horrible of him to do. I really don't see how that paints AA in a good light.

I don't understand what is being said here. It's just as bad if AA is
Agreed. I really did not like how they advertised the V-Day update with these harsh kisses. I'm chalking it up to a disconnect between the marketing team and the game development team.

This thread is moving way too fast to keep up...

All we want is the option. Honestly it was a mistake that larian implemented patch 6, totally agree on that. But arguing that patch 6 took away player agency and not acknowledging that patch 7 is doing the exact same thing is very simple.

Larian's original vision is a script that describes everything as voluntary and reciprocal. And it's been there since the game's release.

@BlueScaliesxx98

Yeah honestly I enjoyed my AA romance until Patch 6. The forced expressions and the arguments sadly soured me on the relationship quite a bit. It would be nice for the next patch to at least have an option so everyone can play their PCs as *they* want and not a forced storyline.

I would have thought it was very obvious that most people do not want a button to press to relive their real life trauma. Even if it is optional.

I simply have no desire to change your mind about something you are so damn convinced of. I know full well how useless these discussions are. Tav actually says abusive things too and their interactions are worth each other. Most of the time AA just reacts symmetrically. I can't influence your perception of the character.

Girl you legit said he is verbally abusive but that’s not as bad as if he were physically abusive. Nobody is talking about the shit he says when Tav compares him to Cazador, he has a right to be angry in that case. Be shitty, get shitty back. We are talking about his unprovoked aggressions if anything. You can’t seriously stand here and say “he may be saying abusive things but he would never physically abuse Tav” like that’s a legit argument ..

I don't understand what is being said here. It's just as bad if AA is
Once again, I have no desire to discuss emotional abusive behaviour or anything else, and I have no desire to convince you of anything about it, I'm saying it's not in AA's character to grab Tav by the throat just for fun. He only did it if Tav agreed to it. THAT'S THE POINT.

I'm just trying to speak to you in your language. Most of what you consider abusive I don't, most of the time I think you are exaggerating. People think it's abusive when he calls Tav a pet. Do I find that offensive? No. You do. I'm not going to change your mind that it isn't.

But Tav did not agree to it in the game. At no point does AA ask, "is it okay if I suddenly grab you by the throat?" I didn't see that option, or else I would have said no. I'm not saying you can't like it. It's fine if you do. It's also valid that I don't like it.

Absolutely agree. Astarion is a very lively and reactive character. And he reacts to words and actions the way a living person reacts. Tav is always the initiator of conflict. The line “You're like Cazador” are words fit for a roleplay of an extremely cruel and emotionless character, those words are aimed at hurting him, nothing more. Astarion - a character with PTSD (PTSD survivors can have very aggressive and even lightning fast reactions to such things, tell a soldier who has experienced torture in captivity that he is just like the one who tortured him and no good will come of it). Astarion was a victim of real terrible violence, he's been a victim for 200 years, I don't think headcanon authors on the topic of “toxicity” or anyone in the real world in general, can fully imagine it. Maybe the game's authors went a bit overboard in describing the suffering in Astarion's story, the psyche can't handle something like that, and a personality that has gone through something like that is unlikely to retain integrity. But Astarion has. And he reacts more than adequately to the cruel, insulting, treacherous words from the one person he, unfortunately, has only just begun to trust.

*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***


Words don't do anything at all. Nobody's words do anything. Facts - the only time Astarion hurt Tav was a failed patch 6 fanservice. Karlach and Will, by the way, cannot be called highly intelligent characters. They're both pretty simple and judge solely based on their own ideas of morality. Moralizing is degrading the plot, spoiling the story, and really, as you correctly mentioned before, killing off a complex, interesting, and unique character, and when done in form:

*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain a discussion of violence, abuse, SA related to a BG3 scene) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. Trigger warning***

The animations were shot separately, and the words “”scared, sad and pained“” that created Tav's facial expressions in patch 6 are part of the game's program code. There is no confirmation that this was the entire studio's idea. Patch 7 fixed this, and most likely led kissing to the content option that was originally intended as fanservice.


Ryzaki, thank you for intelligently laying out the problems of the scenario from the perspective of a player familiar with the topic of “toxic romance”. I found it interesting to read your posts and helped me somewhat understand the topic and what, logically, such stories should look like. For my part, I would add that for a roleplaying character who sincerely loves and understands Astarion, for a player who is a fan of classic romance, the game has an extreme minimum of not only appropriate, but at least more or less acceptable lines. But offensive lines and rails trying to turn RPG into a bad novel - from the heart. It's interesting that in the AA romance, Astarion's own replicas are very good, many of them just very much liked by fans (myself included), but the replicas and choices for Tav are a level below nowhere. This is the first time I've encountered a game where you're not thinking “what's the best choice” but “what's not so bad, and at least somewhat acceptable” to choose that, and in some scenes there isn't even an acceptable option. Unless the epilogue has a normal set of lines, and so, the lion's share of the content is Tav provoking a fight with Astarion, and in my game, even though Astarion never once even raised his voice at me, let alone any “insults”, I end up with a rather reduced and sparse content, because a lot of lines for which interactions are prescribed, I just have to ignore. I just don't wish to play a stupid character, why can't normal lines for roleplay be given? But, no for “roleplay richness”, they need to introduce a selector with terrible, and as you rightly point out, “over exaggerated clown expressions”.

I am locking this thread now, as it seems to be tempting people on all sides of the debate into rule breaking behaviour.

As a reminder:

- Be respectful towards all forum members.
- Do not use excessive or extreme language.
- Remain constructive and respectful of others' opinions and gameplay styles.
- Remain respectful of game narratives and character preferences.
- Do not use Larian Studios Message Boards' features in a manner that adversely affects the availability of its resources to other users (e.g., excessive shouting [use of all caps] or flooding (continuous posting of repetitive text or topics).

If you find yourself wanting to swear or shout in caps, that's probably an indication you need to disengage.


Some points, in the event that anyone is tempted to start a new thread:
- We are all entitled to our own interpretations of the game, and it's probably better *not* to start off a thread as this one effectively did by saying that other interpretations are less valid.
- On the other hand, we are allowed to think and say that our interpretations are better supported by the evidence in game, as long as that's done constructively and we're not being dismissive or rude about other perspectives and as long as we are happy to have others explain why they think we're wrong. We all need to make sure we're not treating people who argue against our position as attacking us personally, and be willing to have *friendly* disagreements. If you can't disagree in a friendly fashion, then you probably need to take a step back and not get involved.
- But while we are all free to think that our own position is better supported, we need to respect others' rights to their views, and particularly to their preferences, and while friendly disagreement is fine please don't allow that to slide into trying to shout down or drown out opposing views.
- We are never all going to agree, and that is absolutely fine. What isn't fine is going round and round in circles, getting increasingly wound up and annoyed with one another. Not everyone can have the last word, so once you have made your point and find you are repeating yourself, please consider taking the high road and agreeing to disagree.


I will also say to those who prefer the patch 7 kisses that, at least partly due to the behaviour of those who agree with you, every thread criticising the patch 7 animations has ended up locked. That means that I expect you to be welcoming and tolerant of opposing views in other AA threads that are still open, or indeed any new ones that are created.