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member
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This devnote is confimed by the game, though. (Warning, discussion of abuse) Because you really can't break up with him once tadpoles are gone. (And yeah, personally, I don't pick and choose which devnotes I consider canon. I totally agree with Astarion being okay with Halsin being canon.) So these two things just reinforce each other, unlike very bugged Minthara. And honestly, if Minthara were really written as someone who won't let their partner go, I would have been all for the option to choose scary expressions in her scenes as well. It doesn't apply to AA alone if it were the case, but this thread is really not about other companions. Yeah but that's a *maybe* much like *maybe* Astarion told the player not to ask for help. There's no *definite* there's a just a *maybe*. The game doesn't confirm it. It also doesn't deny it. It works in both directions, you know. ? Wait what? Those are two different things. Player being unable to leave Astarion's side and being under a compulsion not to ask for help are not the same. Then how else can you explain that the game doesn't allow you to break up with AA in the end? How else would you explain that the game clearly shows you two together with him despite your attempt to break up? And to your request for freedom AA answers: "Not this again". Which means that you have already tried to break free of him several times. I mean it proves they half assed it which is the more condemning thing for me personally. An abusive plot is not something to half ass. Maybe, but this is not the issue we are discussing in this thread. In this thread people are asking to give them an option to choose.
Last edited by Rote90; 18/09/24 05:09 PM.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Ahem ... Can I please remind everyone of the following forum rules:
- While we are aware that sometimes users might want to have these discussions on reference to the games, please try to keep conversations about heavier topics (abuse, sexual assault, etc) within spoilered text with an appropriate warning, so other users can choose if they want to engage.
- Please avoid engaging in sensitive topics
That is, if you feel you absolutely must include discussion of themes of sexual abuse in order to get your point across, please put this in spoiler tags with a clear content warning. And even in spoiler tags, please be very careful and considerate how you discuss, given the sensitive nature of the topic.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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I'm sorry, I didn't see your post on the previous page, when I was posting my response, The Red Queen.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Feb 2024
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That's exactly what you are doing as well, though.
You are ignoring a lot of instances where the game gives players legitimate reasons to interpret it as abuse. You ignore:
1. Spawn admitting he "wanted to be just like Cazador".
2. The narrative where Tav is not allowed to break up with him
3. Dev notes calling AA's line "abusive"
4. Parallels to repeating the cycle of abuse shown in the scene with Vellioth skull.
5. A lot of AA dialogues where Tav can call him out on being the new Cazador. Who says we're ignoring all that? We are now talking specifically about the intimate component of the novel. There is a script for an intimate scene, and it wasn't described as violent. All of the above things have nothing to do with it, but for some reason you insist that it all has to be connected.... based on what? The fact that AA doesn't let go of Tav in the finale and epilogue logically has nothing to do with kissing. AA doesn't have to be a monster in an intimate sense to justify the narrative you're talking about. Someone's words don't make AA a second Cazador. Spawn and Tav's words say more about their worldview. When Tav is first able to call him Cazador, AA has yet to do anything at all. Karlach says Astarion would have lost his soul. That doesn't mean AA lost his soul. None of the characters have omniscience of the plot. Tav taunts AA, saying that he has no vampiric abilities after the riutal and that he killed all those people for nothing. In the finale, AA summons an undead army for the final battle. Having the dialog option doesn't mean that everything Tav says is true. After all, even the phrase “you became a Cazador” is just moralizing. The developers confirmed that he only became himself. Why take everything so literally?
Last edited by Denis999; 18/09/24 05:15 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
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Rote90And also developers clearly state in these files that Tav can't get away from him once tadpoles are gone. It's confirmed. In the script it is also confirmed that: 1. Tav and AA love each other. It says so in plain text. They gaze lovingly at one another and enjoying. I've recently asked a reddit user the same thing since they were quoting exactly this, but where is this devnote from? I've checked all of the turning night and triggerable kisses devnotes (and other parts of the script that aren't devnotes) and I couldn't find anything like this one. Regarding this whole Spawn VS Bride debacle, if I may add (more of) my two cents (because I forgot to earlier), the devnotes for Karlach's origin seem to point to the intent being Spawn, as well, since Neil's given instructions to think about how he's soon going to have control of her. Emphasis on the word intent, people are free to interpret however they like. I also agree that if you're sticking with "devnotes are canon" then all of them are, so yes, I will find someone hypocritical if they think Astarion being OK with poly isn't canon. EDIT: Also, I insist, I feel like it's heavily heavily implied by the flag descriptions for the event at the Elfsong Tavern, so I don't think saying the devnotes never contradict it is true. The wording "Astarion denied the player the ability to break up with him" or "The player can't get away from him, not even if they want to" seems pretty deliberate.
Last edited by jinetemoranco; 18/09/24 05:17 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
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This devnote is confimed by the game, though. Because you really can't break up with him once tadpoles are gone. (And yeah, personally, I don't pick and choose which devnotes I consider canon. I totally agree with Astarion being okay with Halsin being canon.)
So these two things just reinforce each other, unlike very bugged Minthara.
And honestly, if Minthara were really written as someone who won't let their partner go, I would have been all for the option to choose scary expressions in her scenes as well. It doesn't apply to AA alone if it were the case, but this thread is really not about other companions. Ah fair enough I don't consider dev notes canon. But the inability to break up I don't argue my only argument was the compulsion stopping them from asking for help. It also doesn't deny it. It works in both directions, you know. We have been over this. That's my point. It's headcanon which fair enough. Then how else can you explain that the game doesn't allow you to break up with AA in the end? How else would you explain that the game clearly shows you two together with him despite your attempt to break up?
And to your request for freedom AA answers: "Not this again". Which means that you have already tried to break free of him several times. Easily the epilogue is hastily slapped together fanservice and certain things make this *abundantly* obvious. For instance if you choose to travel the world with Astarion (and he cheerfully agrees) you still are throwing parties and there's *zero* dialogue about this. If you are Astarion's spawn and dumped him before the brain hit there's also *no* difference between that or dumping him pre turning into spawn. It's a video game. Some of the writing is going to have holes in it by the medium's very nature because the devs either forgot all variations or didn't accomodate for them. Maybe, but this is not the issue we are discussing in this thread.
In this thread people are asking to give them an option to choose. I mean this argument is how the kisses *are against the story as written* the abusive plot being half assed is very much on topic.
Last edited by Ryzaki; 18/09/24 05:16 PM.
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member
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Warning: discussion of abuse: Honestly this is a personal bugbear of mine but the comparisons the player makes to saying he's like Cazador are just so trashy. Someone's words don't make AA a second Cazador. Spawn himself says he "Wanted to be just like Cazador". He confirmes it himself. And I have my right to believe him, because nothing indicates he might lie, because he is happy and grateful to Tav in this moment. The fact that AA doesn't let go of Tav in the finale and epilogue logically has nothing to do with kissing. It has eveything to do with kisses, because kisses is a part of romantic relationship. And him refusing to let Tav break up with him is also a part of their relationship. the abusive plot being half assed is very much on topic. I really don't care how well or badly it's written. No matter, abuse is still abuse even when it's badly written. , exactly. Even without the devnotes, you can't break up with him after tadpoles are gone - this is a fact from the game. Easily the epilogue is hastily slapped together fanservice If you consider this as fanservice, then I have my right to consider Patch 7 happy expressions to be fanservice too. Especially because it wasn't like that from the start and Larian's original vision was scary faces. Again, it works in both directions.
Last edited by Rote90; 18/09/24 05:27 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Easily the epilogue is hastily slapped together fanservice and certain things make this *abundantly* obvious. For instance if you choose to travel the world with Astarion (and he cheerfully agrees) you still are throwing parties and there's *zero* dialogue about this. If you are Astarion's spawn and dumped him before the brain hit there's also *no* difference between that or dumping him pre turning into spawn. It's a video game. Some of the writing is going to have holes in it by the medium's very nature because the devs either forgot all variations or didn't accomodate for them. I fully agree with what you're saying here, especially in regards to Astarion, not so much other companions- that being said, it can also go both ways. I'm not privy to what they actually intended of course, but I feel that way and suspect the same reasons when people ask "then why didn't he compel Astral Plane/Avernus Tav at the party?" It could easily be that they forgot about that possibility or swept it under the rug at the time, and it was easier to write a couple lines acknowledging it when it was noticed patches later (that and/or Larian's philosophy regarding player agency, which I feel sometimes supersedes narrative). It does feel like it's structurally weird, because he talks to you as if another friend unless you bring it up or pick the right dialogue options, so it could fly over the player's head when realistically, it's something (you going away) he would bring up in more depth, regardless of what you think he's capable of doing in regards to compelling Tav. It's complicated to discuss those, because yes, they are in the game, and thus, canon- but it's not hard to speculate why some things are the way they are, especially when you know of other budget cuts that happened leading to similar things. Of course, if someone says "well, it's in the game" you don't really have an argument against it, just suppositions, because yeah, I mean, that's true. At the end of the day, I don't know why they did it, or if I'm right in my assessment, but eh, I guess I'm free to say what I think : P
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
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Warning: discussion of abuse: Honestly this is a personal bugbear of mine but the comparisons the player makes to saying he's like Cazador are just so trashy. Someone's words don't make AA a second Cazador. Spawn himself says he "Wanted to be just like Cazador". He confirmes it himself. And I have my right to believe him, because nothing indicates he might lie, because he is happy and grateful to Tav in this moment.
That doesn't make the *player* comparing him to Cazador less trashy (especially given again they know jack all about Cazador other than Astarion's heavily filtered information).
That said I do love AA's reaction to you calling him worse than Cazador at the party
I really don't care how well or badly it's written. No matter, abuse is still abuse even when it's badly written. That's great for you *I* care about poorly written abuse. Especially when it clearly wasn't done with any type of care. If you consider this as fanservice, then I have my right to consider Patch 7 happy expressions to be fanservice too. Especially because it wasn't like that from the start and Larian's original vision was scary faces.
Again, it works in both directions. I didn't think it had to be seriously stated that a kiss patch advertised from valentine's day was *fanservice* from the jump.
Last edited by Ryzaki; 18/09/24 05:37 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2024
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The fact that AA doesn't let go of Tav in the finale and epilogue logically has nothing to do with kissing. It has eveything to do with kisses, because kisses is a part of romantic relationship. And him refusing to let Tav break up with him is also a part of their relationship. . No, it has nothing to do with the kisses. The kisses are an action you do during the game when you can also break up with him every time before the end. So there is a safe way to stop everything. After the epilogue, when he refuses to let TAV go, the kisses don't exist anymore. Maybe I can understand putting the patch 6 expressions after that moment in the epilogue but, like I said before, at that moment the kisses aren't an option anymore.
Last edited by Mordred92; 18/09/24 05:32 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
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I fully agree with what you're saying here, especially in regards to Astarion, not so much other companions- that being said, it can also go both ways. I'm not privy to what they actually intended of course, but I feel that way and suspect the same reasons when people ask "then why didn't he compel Astral Plane/Avernus Tav at the party?" It could easily be that they forgot about that possibility or swept it under the rug at the time, and it was easier to write a couple lines acknowledging it when it was noticed patches later (that and/or Larian's philosophy regarding player agency, which I feel sometimes supersedes narrative).
It does feel like it's structurally weird, because he talks to you as if another friend unless you bring it up or pick the right dialogue options, so it could fly over the player's head when realistically, it's something (you going away) he would bring up in more depth, regardless of what you think he's capable of doing in regards to compelling Tav.
It's complicated to discuss those, because yes, they are in the game, and thus, canon- but it's not hard to speculate why some things are the way they are, especially when you know of other budget cuts that happened leading to similar things. Of course, if someone says "well, it's in the game" you don't really have an argument against it, just suppositions, because yeah, I mean, that's true. At the end of the day, I don't know why they did it, or if I'm right in my assessment, but eh, I guess I'm free to say what I think : P I mean Wyll's been hacked together and didn't even get a kiss in his epilogue scene til this patch. There's plenty wrong with the epilogue scenes too. Oh defo it could be them just plain forgetting but like that's my whole issue with The abuse plot. Like if you can just *forget* you wrote an abusive relationship and ignore it with the endings that's an issue. Like you had time to put in a cute note for Durge knocking out Alfira but plain forgot PC being spawn how exactly??? I mean we're all free to say what we think of course. Honestly my only issue is the X is canon and your thoughts are wrong when the writing around this is so messy. Edit: I really wish this board auto removed double quotes!
Last edited by Ryzaki; 18/09/24 05:39 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Feb 2024
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I'm just saying that the viewpoint that having an abusive context in an AA affair and the fact that he says abusive things under certain circumstances doesn't make scared faces valid by default. Yes, he may say abusive things and not let Tav leave in the epilogue, but that doesn't mean he's going to physically abuse Tav. It was out of the question before patch 5, it's out of the question in the epilogue. Tav is locked in a golden cage, but no one is torturing her. There are nuances. Astarion is a survivor of sexual assault himself, and the entire AA route covers the topic as respectfully as the Spawn route. They have the same reaction to the brothel, to Haarlep and other such events. AA should not be devoid of undertones and nuance.
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apprentice
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apprentice
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Maybe I can understand putting the patch 6 expressions after that moment in the epilogue but, like I said before, at that moment the kisses aren't an option anymore. Honestly that's what bugs me. If the kisses were meant to be the big abusive moment why were they not AA's epilogue kisses (does he even have any epilogue kisses?) that would've made way more sense. It would also explain him being that extra when Tav can't leave him anymore.
Last edited by Ryzaki; 18/09/24 05:42 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
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I'm just saying that the viewpoint that having an abusive context in an AA affair and the fact that he says abusive things under certain circumstances doesn't make scared faces valid by default. Yes, he may say abusive things and not let Tav leave in the epilogue, but that doesn't mean he's going to physically abuse Tav. That is one hell of a way to say emotional abuse is less bad than physical abuse. so he says abusive things (your own words) and Tav being scared is NOT valid. But then smiling is? Wow. Okay. Also never said he is physically abusive. Neck grabbing is meh could be interpreted both ways. That’s why tavs expression matters.
Last edited by BlueScaliesxx98; 18/09/24 05:44 PM.
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enthusiast
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@Ryzaki I just felt that, surprisingly (because I often feel he's very very privileged in terms of being given content) he was particularly shafted, while other companions (even Wyll, from what I saw while datamining!) got a lot of consideration put into different paths, they have plenty to say that is unique in their own way, which doesn't really apply that much to about any path in Astarion's epilogue. Sad to hear Wyll was shafted in that way again, though.
I similarly to you think that plot exists and was intended (apologies if I misunderstood you earlier) but I think there are things complicating it. I don't believe it was /that/ badly written or executed (although it isn't extremely explicit or anything, but I can understand why because of the circumstances around the relationship at the time), but something I felt in regards to the Valentine's tweet was that I was getting a whiplash with how they were combining both sexy advertising for it with animations that seemed to be intended to convey a certain non-sexy message.
I put it this way long ago, but it reminds me of how TLOU2 is like "Killing is bad and everything" and then markets the awesome killing gameplay. I do believe the facial animations were pre-meditated (that doesn't mean they haven't regretted it or decided to go in another direction or whatnot), but the way they decided to go about it both in mechanics and marketing was certainly mishandled (not to mention, that yes, even for what they represented they were too exaggerated).
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"then why didn't he compel Astral Plane/Avernus Tav at the party?" It's very easy to explain. (warning: discussion of abuse)
Cazador can't compel his spawns when they don't hear him. Confirmed by Spawn's epilogue when Cazador is still alive - Spawn is still free, he wasn't forced to come back through distance. It's also confirmed in case gurs help him to kill Cazador behind the screen: Spawn says they ripped off his tongue, after that he was able to approach him and kill him.
Leon and Aurelia weren't forced suddenly, their compulsion only turned on once they tried to go directly against Cazador's previous order - to capture Astarion.
This is the reason AA couldn't force Tav to get back from Avernus or Astral Plane - because they couldn't hear him.
He didn't force Tav not to go with Karlach/Laezel, because all the other companions would have killed him if he tried to control Tav in front of everybody.
If he tried to begin to compel Tav at the party, again, other companions could have turned against him, being warned previously by Tav. It's very different than being already told not to tell anyone before the party.
So in my opinion, AA is just lying when he says he could have said a word - and Tav would have magically returned to him from Avernus. He is trying to gaslight Tav and keep his face. Which only proves further, how he constantly reinforces Tav's slave status to their face.
Last edited by Rote90; 18/09/24 05:46 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Feb 2024
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Please, don't do victim blaming.
Whatever Tav does, they have their right to break up with him and call him out.
It's very problematic what you are saying that a victim is responsible for abuser's actions. VERY problematic. I could say the same thing about the phrase “you've become a Cazador”.
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member
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I didn't think it had to be seriously stated that a kiss patch advertised from valentine's day was *fanservice* from the jump. In this case it's just hypocritical to tell our side that we should be denied to get our "fanservice" option, just like you already got yours. Especially since our preferred Tav's expression was Larian's first choice.
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apprentice
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apprentice
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@Ryzaki I just felt that, surprisingly (because I often feel he's very very privileged in terms of being given content) he was particularly shafted, while other companions (even Wyll, from what I saw while datamining!) got a lot of consideration put into different paths, they have plenty to say that is unique in their own way, which doesn't really apply that much to about any path in Astarion's epilogue. Sad to hear Wyll was shafted in that way again, though.
I similarly to you think that plot exists and was intended (apologies if I misunderstood you earlier) but I think there are things complicating it. I don't believe it was /that/ badly written or executed (although it isn't extremely explicit or anything, but I can understand why because of the circumstances around the relationship at the time), but something I felt in regards to the Valentine's tweet was that I was getting a whiplash with how they were combining both sexy advertising for it with animations that seemed to be intended to convey a certain non-sexy message.
I put it this way long ago, but it reminds me of how TLOU2 is like "Killing is bad and everything" and then markets the awesome killing gameplay. I do believe the facial animations were pre-meditated (that doesn't mean they haven't regretted it or decided to go in another direction or whatnot), but the way they decided to go about it both in mechanics and marketing was certainly mishandled (not to mention, that yes, even for what they represented they were too exaggerated). I mean Wyll's still bugged to think people are Lae'zel so XD (also is bugged so he's giving me nothing but hostile greetings for some reason. booooo). But honestly Wyll and being shafted in BG3 more iconic duo meme at this point honestly. Yeah some of the advertising is weird (again I bring up the Christmas special with the Mizora picture because my god that still bugs me). Honestly at this point I'm just chalking it up to misfired fanservice. Maybe they thought the horror faces were sexy for some reason. Oh god you just gave me flashbacks to the TLOU2 discussions  (good lord the rage) Honestly as I said already I do enjoy dead dove content so my personal headcanon for the AA route was always it being an abusive relationship but more emotionally than physically. So the aggressive kisses in patch 6 turned me right off.
But honestly for me it's *very* badly written. Like the conversation you get the night he's ascended strikes me as some of the worst writing in the game frankly (God that I want sex choice lives in my head rent free). Which is crazy because the convo you get right after he ascended is fine. The player is forced into extremely narrow boxes (which is insanely unnecessary it was quite possible to get across Astarion's whole be my spawn or it's over without forcing the player into being hostile.) God I could go for ages on how much I hate that scene.
Last edited by Ryzaki; 18/09/24 06:01 PM.
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apprentice
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In this case it's just hypocritical to tell our side that we should be denied to get our "fanservice" option, just like you already got yours.
Especially since our preferred Tav's expression was Larian's first choice. When did I say you should be denied your expressions? Are you mistaking me for someone else? I'm very much pro the fearful options being an option for those that want them. I don't care if someone wants those faces for their PC that has no effect on my game if it's an *option*. (I do wish we had *more* options. I for one love variety)
Last edited by Ryzaki; 18/09/24 06:02 PM.
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