Originally Posted by Ametris
I'm always for some extra Gortash content, because it's criminal how short and unsatisfying his presence in the game is. Romantic and/or platonic additions, we need more! I was so sad to see the game unceremoniously discard him like that when confronting the brain together.

His romance could have been something amazing:


Please! I wish! I doubt they’ll do anything elaborate at this stage, but this is what it should have been originally or with patch 7 and the evil endings. His arc ended up being very anticlimactic as one of the game’s main antagonists, which is disappointing given that he has so much potential. While Ketheric and Orin had their roles, Gortash was the mastermind of the plot along with DU. I don’t think the other two would have initiated such a grand, diabolical scheme.

Originally Posted by Marielle
What could a hero do, if they were in the past, to prevent the troubles to come? Save and adopt little Enver Gortash. Sympathetic villains Larian in BG3 succeeded perfectly, and personally they touch my soul much more than “good” characters. A hero who survived in a cruel world and can “walk on ashes” often turns out to be smarter, stronger, and brighter, and is more appealing than a superficial and silly “moralist” who probably wouldn't have survived such trials. Gortash's character is, of course, the product of a violent environment, an abusive childhood, and a subsequent spin in Baldur's criminal circles. He ended badly, come to think of it, because of one misstep:

He overestimated the strength of his control over the Emperor and sent him off to find the prism. Which then led to us and our companions not becoming slaves to the Absolute, but being able to defend ourselves from control, gain strength, and thwart Gortash's plan. The chaos factor is always present, even in the most perfect plan. But, if in the case of the usual “good” roleplay everything looks realistic and logical - a group of people connected by a tadpole becomes the very chaos factor that destroyed the whole carefully constructed chain of sequential planning, then the a priori death of Gortash, even when we take his side, looks to me something somewhat artificial.

Devils in BG3 (as well as in the world of Faerûn in general) do not look like some mystical embodiment of evil, they are rather a very tough aggressive society (with magic, of course, and with the peculiarities that this magic imposes). Gortash's parents are of the human race, but that doesn't make them any better than the devils. The story of parents selling their child to someone for service, where the child would be virtually enslaved and tortured on a regular basis - in the not so distant past of mankind, such stories were not uncommon at all. Except that the word “trauma” in the modern sense of the word did not exist then. Gortash's story in many ways resembles the story of a man “from the bottom” who managed to rise and penetrate into the noble society, where he successfully outplayed everyone and became dominant, because the people around him, who grew up in hothouse conditions, unprepared for such competition, were not able to notice his plans, let alone oppose him in any way. It is indicative that Gortash did not just become a gang leader or an arms dealer (it was just a step for him), but devoted a lot of effort to self-education (no one taught him anything, all his knowledge seems to have been acquired one way or another on his own), which allowed him to eventually become what he became.

Very beautiful character analysis! I agree. In order to escape the horrors Gortash was subjected to, a “hero” likely would have had to take actions contrary to their alignment to survive. The “turn the other cheek” types would up dead or worse, given that their captors do not hold themselves to the same moral code. Additionally, a character with a weaker constitution than Gortash may have wallowed in their own despair or resigned themselves to their fate.

I was really only viewing devils based on the phrasing used on page 122 of the 5e manual in order to illustrate just how unlikely it would have been for Gortash to come out of The House of Hope possessing a good alignment. But you brought up another really excellent point— devils are constantly scheming and plotting to advance themselves further at the expense of others as they live in a caste system. Raphael demonstrates this core behavior through his own machinations to
obtain the Crown of Karsus to rule over the Nine Hells.
. I wish I could say this in a way that wasn’t so cliche, but the apple doesn’t really fall far from the tree. Gortash was already described as brilliant at a young age. His hatefulness came from none other than his own parents— the corpses of the Flymms do not hide the fact that they have always despised him, thinking of him as wicked, troublesome, and a burden. I suspect they largely blamed him for their marital problems and probably blamed him for their financial woes as well. They really were rotten people— as you said, no better than devils— and even if the player kills them, they seem to feel no remorse or take any responsibility for their actions. So this hatefulness was already planted within him before he was sold off into slavery and his main childhood role model is a being whose race follows a meritocratic structure. As an aside, I wish we would have gotten more dialogue referencing Gortash’s relationship with Raphael.

Considering the medieval fantasy setting, you’re right that trauma would be defined differently than it would in a modern sense. I just personally head canon him as having this slight vulnerability— that he never wants to find himself at the bottom of someone’s boot ever again.

But realistically, I think describing Gortash as a success story of someone who literally clawed their way to the top is more true to his character and properly showcases qualities that are commonly perceived as attractive: intelligence, ambition, determination, and resilience. Definitely one of the reasons why people, myself included, admire his character and would like to see him as a LI. He isn’t a boring, one-dimensional, mustache twirling villain— there was a lot of thought and effort put into his creation.

His very connection with the DU is central to the plot and their relationship dynamic would make a compelling romance. “Baby gurl” isn’t too busy for smooches. I get what they meant that he’s too focused on his own ambitions for a serious relationship, but I could make a counter argument using one of my favorite game romances of all time: Solas from DAI. If an actual god was able to be distracted temporarily from his goals through a dalliance with the Inquisitor, I don’t see why something similar couldn’t be written into Gortash’s story. I thought I recall reading somewhere that Solas wasn’t even originally written as a LI but was added later. I might also be imagining things.

Sorry for the overly verbose response! I just love Gortash and I enjoy discussing the complexities of his character!

Last edited by TheUrgeVeszroos; 22/09/24 11:15 PM.