Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Build Discussion Cleric L3vel 3 Spells Under Powered??

Is it just me, or are the Clerics Third Level Spells pretty under powered? To be clear, I mean spells useable by a 5th+ Character Level Cleric.
Background Note: Long Time (40 years?) Table Top Gamer...BUT my friends mostly moved to Pathfinder instead of 5e.

I am way behind the curve in this game; my longest campaign is just a bit past half way from 5th to 6th. But so far my main use of ShadowHeart's 3rds has been to up cast Prayer of Healing.
I totally get that Cleric Spells should not match the Wiz/Sor power level of the classic Fireball, but I'm kinda feeling like even the 2nd level cleric spells are more useful to me...

Mass Healing Word does 1d4 Healing; Really?!? Vs. spells that do 8d6 and melee opponents with 3 attacks?!? I mean I would think at least d8; or better yet 2 (or 3) d4.
Animate Dead for 1 Skeleton?
Daylight used to effect Drow & do some Radiant Damage to Shadows, No? Other than dispelling a 2nd level Darkness, is it any different than Light Cantrip? Perhaps it has a Storyline application...
Prot from Energy use to effect a 10' radius, no?? Cool but so specific and only on 1 ally. You often don't know which energy to expect...
Revivify probably becomes way more necessary at the higher levels; but we start with free scrolls of that and I haven't used 1 yet.

Glyph of Warding & Spirit Guardians I can get down with. Tho ShadowHeart has slightly morphed into a stealthy archer w utility & healing spells for me...thinking about a level or 3 of Rogue for her.
Just saying, haven't used the Guardians much cuz she doesn't wade into the melee arena much.

Beacon of Hope I just learned a useful little detail from: Concentration Spells are only ended by casting a new Concentration Spell; NOT any spell. Which of course would render the Beacon nearly useless since it was most likely cast by your main healer. Are there challenges looming that will make the Advantage on Wisdom & Death Saves extremely helpful???


Thanks for any & all advice! Cheers!!

Respec her into light cleric, they get fireball as level 3 spell.
Spirit guardians are overpowered if your cleric has the armor and gloves that apply radiating orb, because the orbs stack.

Spirit Guardians is a fantastic 3rd level spells.
Just stay put to protect a place (like Halsin's portal in act 2) and see the enemies run or fly to their doom.
Or run around and blast everyone in your path, including those irritating invisible Bhaal assassins.

Cleric does have a lot of pretty mediocre 3rd (Also 4th and 5th) level spells.

Out of the not-so-amazing spells:

Mass Healing Word can be decent. Mostly because it only uses a bonus action and it can be super clutch as it can get multiple downed party members back up.

Animate Dead can be useful. The zombie can threaten enemies making them less likely to simply run towards backline party members, while the skeleton can do decent damage (I'm not sure if they fixed this but you at least used to be able to take its bow and give it to another character to get a neat bow with a 1d10 bonus necrotic damage on its damage rolls)

For the good spells:

Spirit Guardians is very powerful. Especially given the synergies with Radiant damage (Dealing double damage to undead enemies and the Luminous items that proc Radiating Orbs)

Glyph of Warding is also good, essentially Fireball but with optimal damage typing for the enemies you encounter (As well as the option for something like the knockback which can allow you to send a bunch of enemies to their death via a pit/cliff)

The spells that specific Domains get at this level are also decent:

Light Domain gets Fireball which is Fireball. Scores of Wizards and Sorcerers swear by this single spell for good reason.

Trickery Domain gets Fear. Which can trivialize many fights due to the fact that it makes enemies drop their weapons (Thus, if your characters then... Pick them up. You've successfully neutered the enemies offensive capabilities)

Knowledge Domain gets Slow. Which is another potent CC spell that can absolutely cripple enemies.

Tempest Domain gets both Call Lightning and Sleet Storm. The former is simply a powerful AoE damage spell that provides a lot of bang for the buck due to being a Concentration spell allowing you to blast 3d10 damage in an Area every turn for only 1 spell slot. The latter is a decent control tool both for its base effect of disrupting enemy Concentration and creating an ice surface in a massive area. But also due to its synergies with Tempest Domain itself in that when you stop concentrating on it the ice it formed turns into water... Which you can electrify and if your Tempest Cleric electrifies it, it will proc the level 6 Tempest Cleric bonus of knocking back enemies from dealing Lightning damage (Turning it into a huge impassable terrain for enemies)

yes one or two spring to mind but they are act 3

Thanks for the Response/Info!!

I was hoping that animate dead didn't give you just one basic skeleton that goes down with one hit.

OK. I will def revisit the Luminous Armor idea...I just like how Shadowheart looks in the magic 'Azure Shadows' dyed armor I got her. Pretty sure LZ is wearing the LA
Trickery also gives her a short length Invisibility ability at level 6; and I've been thinking a level of Rogue fits her well in my campaign anyway.
3 levels of Rogue would give her all those extra bonus options & an extra bonus action so she can move further thru the battle with her Guardians out...

I love the Tempest Domain spells & abilities. Planning to give Karlach a level of Tempest Cleric for MOAR Healing and the auto retaliation...fits her fight vs the cambions; Thunder is the only damage they aren't resistant to.

You will get additional and better summons at higher levels and depending on your exact subclass choices with Animate Dead.

There are no death saves in D&D5. Thats an AD&D thing.

You get saves during negotiating if you will die, but those are IIRC Constitution ? Cleric doesnt get Consitution Save Proficiency. They get Wisdom and Charisma.

Cleric is an awesome class, probably the strongest single class in the game, and unless you pick Trickery, you only get good to overpowered options (Light).

Skeletons are ranged in BG3 and are thus massively prefered over Zombies.

Animate Dead is solid, but it's a much stronger spell when you upcast using a 4th lvl spellslot rather than a 3rd level spellslot, since you'll get 3 skeletons or zombies instead of just 1.

Skeletons deal necrotic damage with their arrows, which can be pretty useful. Even in the Shadowcursed lands a lot of the enemies you'll face will still take necrotic damage even though they're mostly undead and it might not seem like an optimal damage type.

Zombies have a chance to spawn additional zombies when they kill other enemies, though those zombies are only temporary and will start losing hitpoints per round once the combat concludes. They have slow movement, but high strength so they can jump pretty far. (They're similar to the Druid's Woodland being > Wood Woad summon.) Basically you have to jump the Zombies into position to use them effectively.

This becomes a bit of a pain in the ass though, due to the way BG3 handles party movement and allows for friendlies to body block each other. It can become tedious to maneuver the zombies by jumping around, or jumping out of the way. I think the skeletons are better over all, since it's easier to fire off shots and press on with the turn order sequence without too much micromanagement there. The important thing in either situation is not so much the damage they're putting up, but just having opportunities in the turn order sequence to disrupt or run interference.

Upcasting Animate dead with a 5th level slot is somewhat lackluster by comparison in my view. There you get a single Ghoul, either a Flying Ghoul (specialized in ranged attacks) and a Running Ghoul (specialized in Melee). To me this feels a bit backwards, since I think it would make more sense to fly into position for a melee attack, or run to position for a ranged attack. In either instance you only get 1 summon using the 5th level spellslot, compared to 3 using a 4th level spellslot. The summons are stronger (more HP) and have a stunning attack, but you lose out on those extra opportunities to run interference by having more teammates in the fray.

Cleric spells are sort of weird, because at each Spellslot level the spells on offer are pretty uneven. Also because a lot of spells are just way better when upcast to the next spellslot level higher.

For example the spell Hold Person (2nd level spellslot) is much more powerful when upcast using a 3rd level spellslot, since then you get an additional target and it's more likely that the Holding spell will actually work on at least one of them. Sometimes you can Hold both, occasionally you'll miss both, but that seems to happen less often. Same deal with the 1st Level spell Command, when upcast you'll have more targets again with a better chance that one of them will Halt.

I think the least impressive Spell level for Clerics is actually the 4th level spell list. Trying to choose between Banishment, Freedom of Movement, Guardian of Faith etc. It just seems like I'm almost always better off upcasting a 1st, 2nd or 3rd level Cleric spell instead. Spirit Guardians upcasted for the extra damage or that sort of thing. In addition to Radiating Orb, there are also so many ways to boost a character's movement via items for that one. The boots of speed, those gloves that gives the extra jump after you dash, stuff like that. Or again a 4th level Spellslot used to Hold Person, then you get 3 targets, which means you'll almost always Hold at least one of them. Or Command at lvl 4 with 4 targets, same deal. Command is one of the more reliable spells in the game, and seems to work particularly well against larger enemies. You know your various Giant Spiders and Bulettes and such.

Glyph of Warding is generally pretty awesome, because in addition to extra damage types you also have those options to blast with force, or put enemies to Sleep. Since the Sleep spell is so useless with the HP bloat everywhere (like good luck even putting a goblin to bed lol) I think Glyph of Warding just becomes the default Sleep spell. Or similar to Power Word sleep in BG2. It works more like how you'd expect the standard sleep spell to work, with multiple targets dropping at once instead of just 1, or maybe a couple who are already about to die anyway.

There are just a lot of spells that aren't all that spectacular though, or which are too situational to really be a workhorse. This has a way of making a lot of Clerics, or spellcasters generally, feel a bit of a one trick. Where there's one or two spells that are clearly optimal, and the others are more like for RP flavor.

Trickery Domain is rough, not so much because it's a terrible Domain per se, but because the perks are all stealth and disguise related, instead of direct damage stuff or bonuses to their armor or weapons etc, and that stuff requires way more micromanaging. Again because of the way Party movement is handled, it becomes pretty onerous to do a bunch of ungrouping, pre-positioning for ambushes, or to attempt the trickery stuff. Like I don't know, maybe if the main character is a Rogue, or if you were trying to solo as a Cleric, then abilities like Pass without a Trace and such would be more entertaining. But in my experience it takes too long, and requires too much meta knowledge to set up, in order to be a workhouse Sub-Class for Clerics. Nature Clerics felt similar, because they key off charming Plants and Animals, but there just aren't enough plants and animals in the game to make it feel like a clutch choice. If there were more roving wolves and bears and such maybe, but I found it hard to find much use for the Sub-Class action, or again spells like Dominate Beast. For the way this game plays, 10 rounds of charm isn't really enough to be much fun, especially if the beasts are going to turn on you shortly after the battle ends. I find spells like Dominate Person and Charm to be similarly kinda weaksauce. Like if it works ok cool, but then it's pretty easy for the enemy to snap out of it after they start taking damage. Lots of spells have that sort of vibe, where it's like I'd probably be better off just casting another Glyph ya know hehe

Freedom of Movement is pretty solid though. Especially if your party is using any forms of Difficult Terrain creating spells (Like Hunger of Hadar or Insect Plague) or fighting in areas where there is Difficult Terrain (Or enemies that create it). Not to mention the immunity to Paralyze can be invaluable in various encounters.

There's also a couple of great Domain spells at 4th level. Namely Wall of Fire and Ice Storm.


The main flaw with Trickery Domain is that they themselves cannot benefit from all of the things. Like, the entire concept of the Domain is about providing tools for stealth... But Blessing of the Trickster can only buff someone else.


Nature Clerics at least get some neat spells;

Shillelagh and Thorn Whip are decent Cantrips.

Speak with Animals is a nifty thing to have to interact with various notable animals.

Spike Growth is pretty nice if you set it up properly (Stack it with Darkness or Fog Cloud to prevent ranged attacks and force enemies to run through it and die... And if they make it through, have a high Str character throw them back across it)

Sleet Storm is great CC.

Insect Plague can be decent.

Also, Nature Cleric's perks of Dampen Elements and Divine Strike are pretty neat. The former allowing some Reaction usage to mitigate damage and the latter being flexible bonus damage that can allow you to capitalize on various items or vulnerabilities (As well as Wet status)

Their Channel Divinty and 4th level spells kind of suck, but the rest of their perks aren't bad. I mean, you can't go too wrong running around with Spirit Guardians up bonking things with a Shillelagh buffed staff as a nice easy mono-stat character (Allowing flexibility with where you put excess attributes) - And while yes, you can dip a level into Druid to get Shillelagh on any Cleric, doing so does cost the 12th level Feat (As well as delaying all your class perks and spells by a level)

Knowledge Domain is probably the weakest domain, given their overall lack of good spells (Or even unique spells... Much like Life and War Domains many of their Domain spells are part of the Clerics natural spell list) and mediocre bonuses. Whereby outside of grabbing 2 levels on a Skill Monkey character for Knowledge of the Ages there's really not much going for them.

Yeah that tracks with my experience trying to get into playing as a Nature Cleric. They felt like playing as a Circle of the Land Druid just without a Wild Shape more or less. That was actually fine for me, since I prefer the support spellslinger archetype there to the wild striker.

For Druid multiclasses I couldn't find any 1 lvl dip that felt worthwhile, especially since we don't even get to use a Club or a Scimitar for a weapon doing that if trying to graduate from a Wizard or Sorcerer say. Like you get the medium armor proficiency I guess and a shield, but then feels like everyone and their cousin can have a shield and medium armor, so it's not quite as impressive. For Druid it was more like 10 lvls or bust, or dipping out of Druid instead of dipping into it. I think they probably should have granted a universal ASI at Character lvl 12, just like a homebrewed bonus feat right at the end, cause that would have made many more multiclass combos feel viable. I mean beyond just the 1 lvl dipty dipper. Otherwise seems like you really need to get a lot out the initial class kit/gear.

For Life, if one enjoys playing as the Support Cleric it just feels like Life is the only Domain that really delivers on that with the generic buff to all Heals. It's probably because Healing Word is so just much better than Cure Light Wounds for the lvl 1 spellslot, and pretty much sufficient as the only healing spell in the repertoire. It's easy enough to get by just with Healing Word alone. Sure it's cool to have the Mass Healing Word option when it can be stacked with another buff via items and such, but otherwise it's expensive for the spellslot. Like if I need it for that, I'm already so far behind the 8 Ball that I probably should have prepared a direct damage or CC spell. Then you got the supped up super healing potions to contend with as well, diminishing the heals that come from the standard spell list.

I guess I was just bummed that Druids and Nature Clerics didn't have access to some spells like Animal Summoning II and III. Particularly in Acts II and III, where it might have been fun for an alternative vibe. I mean I felt a little odd about having my Druid Nature-y team running around with a bunch of re-animated skeletons and the boneyard on that. I feel like Jaheira would probably find that a bit suss, and would rather have a couple wolves or wild boars or a pair of lions. The Woodland Being is a classic, and clearly the elementals are cool, but random animals would have been fun. Or I don't know, if it has to be Druids + Undead maybe Spirit animals or whatever? Just felt like Charm/Dominate Beast with that whole angle wasn't reliable enough cause it's so area dependent.

Also not really related, but it would be cool if Scratch lvl'd up with the Rally ability and maybe a bonus to attack vs the bones? Help action is such a bust but Rally would surely be power up not to balk at. Any sort of heal or stabilize that cost an action is a bit of a bust. I mean if the potion takes a bonus action or an action to throw, then anything not a bonus or at range action isn't really competing. Cure Light wounds just feels like such a trap, with the lone exception of the Life cleric thing, but then it's not super exciting really. Probably even better for me would be to summon Scratch without occupying the animal familiar slot, if you're one of the Nature classes, so he could team up with the Raven or the Frog or whoever to make it seem more Beast big time.

Otherwise seems like the lvl 3 spell to Animate the Dead upcast to lvl 4 for 3 is just like way better than the other summons at that level. Woodland being and Minor Elementals compete for the second slot I guess, but it's 3 ups in the turn sequence vs 2 there. Woodland Being is so hardcore that she's like always first up I think over the exploding Ice Memphits but I don't know, like just a Scratch, the Bird a random Spirit Cat might have been a fun way to switch it up there.

I honestly found a pacifist cleric to be a LOT of fun. Equip the Whispering Promise ring and Hellrider's Pride, suddenly Mass Healing Word makes your whole party into sniper tanks. Combined with Beacon of Hope and Sanctuary and just in the process of keeping you party blessed, you've already healed most of the damage received. It burns through spell slots fast, but camp supplies are so abundant in BG3 taking a full long rest after every battle is very easy to do. I did a full playthrough like this, and again it was quite fun.



I do think though, BG3 heavily favors offense over defense and it's much more effective to kill enemies faster than it is to try and escape a doom spiral of trying to keep your party alive while enemies force you to play their game. I think it's better to disabuse yourself of the idea of a "healer class" in BG3, because it's basically setting yourself up to fail.