Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Playing as Astarion is POINTLESS (contains spoilers!)

Hera! Hear!

I think the wild card for the roleplayer is the fact that Astarion is undead. So how do undead express their emotions and handle trauma ? I guess there's a wide landscape of possibilies to choose from.

Take the "romancing" example. Astarion certainly likes sex. At the grove party he tells you so much. Can he also "love" ? Probably not in the same way as a mortal. But Dracula had 3 brides that he cared for well. (Untill he abandoned them to rush to his new fascination, Mina) He cerainly didn't seem to treat them badly, as Cazador trated his conquests. So Astarion could get infatuated with a party member. Have sex with them, care for them and try to get into a stable and permanent relationship. Like Dracula, I think he would want to turn the companion to a vampire also. But, if the love were reciprocal then..... why not ?

This is one of the byproducts of having companions as "Origin" characters.

Nothing and no-one can care about Astarion or help guide him on a path to redemption, because if this happened naturally, it'd devalue the effect that is supposed to be created when Tav/Durge actively makes an effort to do so.

The game is built around how your custom character/played character can take an active part of companions lives, but this limits the interactivity between companions so that things are based off your own actions.

It'd be much better if "Origins" were completely separate characters (Much like Durge) and so they had completely unique interactions with companions and stories within a game.

As far as Astarion himself goes, his only possible thread to salvation, is if he remembers his past from before he was a vampire (Where presumably, he would have experienced friendship, love, kindness etc). Which could be possible if the tadpole helped resurface those memories. If he remembers this better version of himself, he might choose to actively seek it out again rather than focus entirely on power.

As per forum rules, for the time being, the Moderator Team have been asked to close any new discussions or debates involving Astarion's character ending (Ascension vs. Non-Ascension). This measure will be re-evaluated at a later date. Discussing the character and the general narratives surrounding him is acceptable as long as the discussion remains civil and respectful of all forum members.

This thread has been locked pending advice from Larian’s Community Management team whether or not it falls under the scope of that rule. I do recognise that it’s about Astarion as origin, and therefore may be permissible as long as all involved are respectful of others’ preferences and game narratives and resist the temptation to insist their interpretation is the only valid one when others disagree.

I’m afraid, though, that the rather provocative tone from the OP which seemed to be trying to shut down alternative perspectives in advance probably means this isn’t the right thread for us to try to see if, with a bit of time and distance from previous problematic debates, we can manage an open and constructive discussion about Astarion’s character arc.

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*** UPDATE ***

Okay, new year, new chances!

We've consulted and agreed that, despite some concern about the tone with which it started, this thread can be reopened for discussion of the experience of playing Astarion as an avatar. It's an opportunity to show that we can discuss the topic in a civil, constructive way that is respectful of others' preferences and game narratives - and given those are forum rules, hopefully that's the sort of discussion we're all here for!

To help avoid the toxicity that we've seen in related discussions before, let's try to apply the following guidelines:

• Keep the heat down and try to be measured in tone.
• Talk about the game not fans or other individuals.
• Keep close to the topic and be concise: no walls of text or long posts with lots of quotes from others.
• Try to make the positive case for your own position rather than trying to pick holes in that of others: allow others the space to express alternative viewpoints and accept their right to their preferences.
• Don't take disagreements with your opinions or preferences as personal attacks.
• Don't repeat yourself even if others disagree, and be ready to agree to disagree.
• Avoid as far as possible discussion of potentially traumatic topics: given Astarion's back story some mention may be inevitable, but let's recognise when topics can be personally difficult for others and steer clear of real world specifics.

Further posts in this thread that aren't in line with forum standards and the above guidelines may be removed and attract the normal sanctions for rule-breaking. If you're not up for a discussion of this topic on these terms, then please consider steering clear of the thread.

Astarion, of course, will take his own Ascension. He wants to be alive again, to live life to the fullest, to get rid of his painful hunger, to enjoy the sun he loves so much, to see his reflection again, and to taste real life in all its fullness. Astarion himself would hardly think that condemning himself to an eternal existence as a spawn is to become “the best version of himself.” As someone who has been forced to survive and exist in extremely brutal, hellish conditions, he will think rationally. A character too “good” and “moral” to sacrifice himself and give up such a chance as Ascension would simply not be able to survive and would have died while still a slave of Cazador, or would not be able to keep his mind and survive all that Astarion experienced, or would have changed radically, completely changing his attitude to ‘morality’ and to the gods of this world who dictate what is “good and evil” ("I tried them all. None of them answered." Astarion doesn't like the gods, and with very good reason).

Personally, I like the Origins variant of the game, where you make decisions based on a character's approval table, and making the decisions that character himself approves of when he's a follower. It turns out to be a sort of movie game when you don't make the choices yourself, but it's interesting to see what happens when you do, and how the story plays out.

About the romance, that's an interesting question. I liked the romance with Minthara in Astarion Origins. In the main game, Astarion approves, if you take her side, perhaps an understanding could develop between them. I felt encouragement from her during the game, and the romance turned out great. But perhaps it was purely my desire to see her romance, and Astarion himself would prefer solitude.

Personally, I really like Astarion's origin and choosing him as my avatar is my favourite way to play the game. For me his issues are mostly anxiety based and the game does a good job in giving you options to play/feel scared early on (The dream sequence about Cazador is excellent, though I wish there had been some more of the same impact.) while the companions do a good job in giving you confidence in yourself and telling you that you do not have to be scared and have friends who look out for you. So by the time the ritual rolls around, it is quite easy to step away from it - especially since the companions (the ones who do) do a much better job in talking you out of it than Tav does.

I feel that stepping away from the ritual with companion-Astarion, is a very lame scene. Yes, the crying is nice, but the decision making is boring because it solely hinges on the dice-roll, the dialogue that leads to this roll has no tension or drama. For Avatar-Astarion otoh it's an excellent scene because you can bully Cazador to the point of carving the runes and then at the last moment listen to your friends' pleas and break it off. Such a good scene.

As for romance, yes he does not have to seduce anyone, but that doesn't mean you can't approach it with the mindset that he feels that he has to. From this point of view I really enjoyed saying "no" to Lae'zel. For those who haven't romanced her, she is such a consent queen, that she asks you about three times if you really want to sleep with her and eventually picking the "No" option, feels like such a good replacement for the Araj scene because Lae'zel isn't even properly salty about it and her support doesn't hinge on sexual gratification. In the end, for me, Gale works best. The special Underdark ending Avatar-Astarion can have with human Gale is my favourite ending for the game in general and I just love the odd-couple energy the two of them have if Astarion is Avatar and Gale your slot 2 companion.

That's another point, Avatar-Astarion is slightly less on edge and concerned with being cool than companion-Astarion is. As Avatar he is much more excited about the world he gets to explore and him and Gale squabbling about loot, appreciating the efficiency of mushroom-zombies or coming up with stylish ways to kill themselves in case of starting ceremorphosis is just endlessly entertaining too listen to.


Edit: That is not to say that I don't have some issues with the origin, it has some narrative and pacing issues that don't work too well, for example you can fairly easily miss all of his unique scenes, by clicking the wrong option or biting someone too early. There'd be some things to iron out, but I didn't get the impression that's what this thread is about.

Just a quick note: that Dracula thing was made up by Coppola, it's not in the original book.


As for the topic: you can use some headcanon: Astarion having to take control because the group somehow thinks, he is better suited than them and letting him make decisions is a bit similar to Durge tbh. For me, it's that him taking responsibility for the first time in a long while and maybe getting positive feedback can change him to become a better person. He clearly cares about Sebastian and he is not immune to the fate of the children by act 3 so him taking control and people actually applauding him for that, can change.
Plus playing as an origin is making that character your player character, there is no 'This has to happen' , just see it as a clean slate and make that character yours.

Not sure what you mean by "that Dracula thing". The 3 "brides" that Dracula cared for, providing them with victims and protection,are in the Bram Stoker book. When Dracula leaves he explicitly gives them permission to feed on Harker, which he forbade during the time needed to copmlete his business. After he left, they obtained the castle and most likely continued to haunt and terrorize the lands around it. So quite different from the way Cazador ran his shop.

I think these are very good points, interesting to think about for sure. I can see him becoming infatuated with a party member or even falling in love with them. We can't know for sure how different it is for an undead but it's something to think about.
Yes, he does say he likes sex early on in the game, and it's certainly clear he enjoys it with Tav/Durge (if in a relationship) after he finishes his main quest. He also can potentially ask your character why you didn't invite him if you spend the night with Mizora.

A reminder that this thread is principally about playing Astarion as an avatar. It’s fine to make reference to his behaviour as a companion where it helps shed light or illustrate points you want to make about playing Astarion as your own character but let’s tread carefully in this thread and try to keep as on topic as possible.

It won't be any different for Astarion, as he's not “undead” in the classic sense of the word - the tadpole started up Astarion's organism again. The only things he still has in common with the classic vampire spawn are vampiric hunger, needing to drink blood, and also invulnerability to spells that work against the undead. But he can also eat normal food for pleasure, he breathes, he sweats, his body works the same as the living, except for bloodlust. Actually biting is his only ability as a spawn, he has no other vampire spawn abilities in DnD. Thinking about how the undead would feel only makes sense if Astarion doesn't Ascended and loses his tadpole, then he would be undead again with dulled senses.

As for the feelings of the undead in DnD in general, there can be different interpretations, largely depending on the DM. My DM, who is a big fan of necromancy and the undead, when I discussed the topic with him, said he thought Astarion's backstory wasn't realistic because the undead can't have sex, due to the fact that the body is effectively dead and functions differently. A vampire spawn could be a seducer, but it would be a seduction in words, flirting and such to lure a victim, but nothing more. Besides, there is no need for more than that to lure a victim. In this case, Astarion would have only wanted sex after the tadpole had revitalized his system. In terms of emotions and feelings - intelligent undead (vampires) can experience emotional and intellectual attachment, there are no limitations here, except that the vampire spawn have their senses dulled in general. But Larian has a different view in this case, and the DM who does Ravenloft campaigns also thinks otherwise.

Ahem! (What I said about discussing Astarion as a companion only insofar as it can be tied back to playing him as an avatar also applies to discussing the sex lives of vampires.)

I meant Dracula falling in love with Mina, that wasn't in the book.

Ow, you are correct of course. But , I didn't say "falling in love", but "fascinated by". But that also was not in Stoker's book, indeed.
But, it was not Coppola's invention. It's already there in Murnau's 1922 "Nosferatu - Eine Symphonie des Grauens". (also based on Stoker's Dracula) Where the vampire sees a locket with Ellen (=Mina) portrait, commenting that she has a lovely neck. The names are changed in this movie. Harker = Hutter etc...
I can recommend this ancient movie. There are several copies on it on youtube to watch. With different language subscripts or not. I won't post a link 'cause Redqueen will freakout and say it's offtopic.

Of course I know Nosferatu, one of the best vampire movies ever made. I assumed you mean Coppola, because nowadays most people refer to that movie when talking about Draculas fascination with Mina (and calling it romantic - which is just ...no). I'm glad to see someone referring to Nosferatu

(Sorry for OT, OP)

Okay, let’s move on from Dracula chat now!

I got the impression Spawn-Astarion's enjoyment of sex is related to how he feels about his partner. When he is your friend he has a line about how his conquests failed to give him even temporary bliss often (something along those lines) and the drow scene doesn't go well with him either. Otoh hand he mentions that he overall enjoyed his time with the PC even though complicated feelings about his past soured that enjoyment. It's never clearly stated where he draws the line of "not wanting to be thought of in terms of sex" or how he eventually resolves it, but party banter suggests that once Caz is dead, he's at least heavily into pda again, to the point of annoying Lae'zel with it.

If he's your player character it's up for your interpretation how he deals with it, and thinking it through and coming to satisfying solutions for yourself is part of the fun. He can also always stay single and become a Harper.

Becoming a harper is a thing?

Generally I agree, that an origin as player character is up for the player to flesh out. If I would play one of them, then I would probably just go with what I headcanon would feel right, just like with every other character one plays in a rpg.
I saw people do pretty evil, tiefling grove raiding playthroughs with Karlach, romancing Minthara after, and having a blast. I just see it as alternate reality - if you play, Karlach can be evil, Astarion a paragon of good and Lae'zel open minded and engaging. Whatever is the most fun. I don't think, there is right or wrong in playing a character (with the exception that if it is a multiplayer, everyone should have fun and be on board for a direction )

AfaIk for the goodish Origins if they are single and in Faerûn. Gale has to pass a roll because Jaheira suspects he only wants to read through their secret archives. ^^

It's an interesting discussion. I've never played as Astarion but having played the game many times as other OC's and having had Astarion in my party many times it's not too difficult to start running through the various interactions we are all so familiar with.

I think the idea that it's difficult to imagine Astarion choosing a route other than tadpole-kill-ascend is valid. After all, he's an undead vampire, so default-wise he's more or less already on the evil side of the ledger from the gitgo. His character also has a predisposition to embrace the tadpole as he admits in ACT I. The temptation of Ascencion once he learns of it is also pretty hard to resist.
His personal story/quest is a fugitive on the run, so he's motivated by fear as opposed to some OC's who are either mission goal-directed (SH, Wyll, Lzl) or already engaged in a potential redemption arc (Gale Wyll). Curiously Kerlach is also a fugitive, though she exhibits a "just cause" motivation of revenge. I think like Astarion it's hard to play Karlach logically any way other than her obvious "good" character.

Perhaps its simply a case of "yeah Astarion's evil", there is a possibility to pursue a redemption type story but it doesn't make a lot of sense. Likewise I think Karlach is "good" and while it's possible for her to turn out evil (AFAIK) it doesn't make a lot of sense either.

I think its good that not every OC is a dual personality "twoface". I never take Astarion in a good party, nor do I ever take Karlach in an evil one. In fact there are some hard limits when taking Karlach and Wyll as followers that keep you from pursuing some evil paths which would suggest that there are some actions by them as evil avatars that should not be possible.