Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Companions: how have your views on them changed from first impressions?

I didn't see a thread discussing this as specifically I wanted to post in without doing some forum necromancy, so here we go.

Needless to say, but this thread will of course cover MASSIVE spoilers and touch on delicate topics, so if you haven't beaten the game or cannot handle respectful discussion of delicate topics, this is not the thread for you.

Also, please remember no one has primacy of opinions. We can disagree without needing to force our opinions on each other.

Lae'zel: I was like 'ok, girl' , when she started berating me about everything and started ignoring her in my first playthrough (back in EA), but I love her now. SHe is one of the best companions writing wise.

SHadowheart: she was my favourite in EA and now I find her a bit overrated and sometimes too much. I like her, but all the hype drove me away a bit.

Karlach: I thought, I wouldn't like her, because I'm not a fan of barbarians, but she is my absolute favourite characterwise now and I don't even change her class.

Astarion: I like him well enough, but as with Shadowheart, I'm more pushed away from him by all the media hype. He is a good character, I don't just think he is better than the rest. So it is more the fact, he is shoved at you everywhere. And yeah, sometimes I want to punch him a bit for his lack of empathy. It gets better later on, but at the beginning I just want him to shut tf up tbh.

Gale: I didn't like him much in EA, but now he is another favourite of mine. He is such a great character. I like him being ambitious, but kind hearted at the same time. And he is very easily swayed from his god path with good arguments. I actually like that. He is intelligent, so instead of persuading him, you just point out the flaws and he is like 'Ok, you're right'. It's ok to have persuasion roles for companions that do think, it's their destiniy, like Shadow with becoming a DJ, but I find it refreshing, that it's different here.

Wyll: I like him more after his rewrite, I just think, he needs more content. He is another favourite of mine, being the genuine good character. I also love, that they made him a fiendlock and then have him be lawful good. It's much more impactful as if he would have been a paladin for example.

Jaheira: She was always perfection for me in all three games. She is awesome and I never really changed my opinion about her.

Minsc: Didn't like him at all in BG1 &2, but actually find him more bearable in BG3, still never will be my favourite. SO slight change between games.

Halsin: I was annoyed, when he was announced as companion, because I wanted Helia the halfling werewolf bard, not another elf and anotehr druid. I gave him a fair chance, but I find him creepy and bland and so he is mostly forgotten in camp. And stays there for the purpose of a certain quest. So it changes from being neutral towards him in EA - I liked him for what he was: a damsel in distress and a questgiver, but nothing more - , to being annoyed that he became a companion, to being outright bored by him.

Minthara: nothing much to say: she is evil, which was expected, and hilarious, which I didn't expect. I don't have a strong opinion towards her. SHe is ok, but I don't go out of the way to recruit her. So I would say, nothing has changed. I was not surprised, she became a companion, since the Minthara stans were pretty active during EA here, but I would have preferred one of the goblins (Sazza) or that half orc lady from Moonrise as a cultist companion

Astarion - My first impressions of him was that he was a colossal douche.

Gale - My first impressions of him was that he was a lovable, friendly guy who's easy to get along with.

Halsin - My first impressions of him was that he was boring and lame.

Jaheira - My first impressions of her was that she was overhyped.

Karlach - My first impressions of her was that she was kind of fun, but was hiding a troubled past.

Lae'zel - My first impressions of her was that she was a hard ass and very selfish.

Minsc - My first impressions of him was that he exists.

Minthara - My first impressions of her was that she makes a good corpse.

Shadowheart - My first impressions of her was that she was a bit curt and prickly, but showed signs of a softer center.

Wyll - My first impressions of him was that he was an annoying goody-two-shoes.

Astarion: My first impression was that he was really funny and interesting, mysterious. I never trusted him during my first playthrough.
- After he ascended he surprised me with sharing his power with my Tav and helping the whole group win the game. Earning my trust. Now my favorite character and romance path in any game I've played.

Gale: My first impression was that he was desperate and untrustworthy. Very pushy with his advances (he has been patched to be less so now), making me really dislike him.
- After he surprised me a couple of times with his support of some of my Tav's more questionable decisions and I got to know how open minded he was, I now like him.

Shadowheart: My first impression was that she seemed really cool, interesting. I really liked her sass.
- After getting to know her through her quest, I still really like her. I like both her paths, the light one for the saving those two important people, the dark one for seeing her in command and at a place of power.

Minthara: My first impression was this NPC is cool, well, time to kill her so my group can take over the camp.
- After learning she could be recruited I was intrigued to do a second playthrough. She turned out to be one of my favorite characters in the game. A much need counterweight to all the good companions.

Karlach: My first impression was that she seems cool. I liked that her fire and anger was connected.
- After getting to know her more I found her very irritating with how she likes to judge everything and everyone except herself. The revenge scene was cool.

Wyll: My first impression was that he was really cool. Loved the moster hunter story.
- After playing throught the game I find him a bit frustrating. I still like him, but I also wish he could go darker. That he could be more interesting.

Lae'zel: My first impression was that she seems strong and capable. A good asset. Liked her brutal honesty when talking to her.
- After she start trusting Tav I find her more likeable and I started trusting her in turn. Really like her quest, it's a good story.

Minc: My first impression was that he was really funny. I loved his dynamic with Boo.
- After finishing the game with him I still like him. I like how he is simple and deep at the same time. I sill laugh at some of his dialouges.

Halsin: My first impression was that I liked his values. I could understand his love for nature.
- After discovering how pushy he was with his romance, I like him a lot less. Also felt like he kind of dissapear in the last Act in terms of personality.

Jaheira: My first impression was that I really like her. Reminds me of someone in real life.
- After finishing the game with her, I still like her. She is a good, wise and funny character. She judges others bad actions, but she also judges her own.

Astarion: In EA I thought he was a despicable creature who has no place in a party that doesn't have a death wish. After seeing his story all the way through I got more information why he is so horribly, but it didn't make him any less horrible.

Emperor: A narrative contrivance. I struggle to see him as a character.

Karlach: I have little opinion of her as a character. I think it comes down with lack of interactions you have with companions - and by that I mean talking to people in BG3 doesn't feel like talking to people. That is a problem for a companion who otherwise has very little presence and most of her story is told, rather than shown or interacted with. I find it compelling how doomed she is, but I didn't think it was pulled off well in the game - that is her story is not developing throughout the game until the very end.

Lae'zel: She is easily the one I like the most. While she is aggressive from the get go, her hostility feels justified. Her story ties rather well with the main plot, so her involvement feels natural, and has plenty of opportunities for growth. In a more traditional Bioware game she would be fantastic "out-there" companion. Alas in this band of caricatures she felt like the only relatable character. She is only the one which to me feel authentic, like she belongs in the world. Most of the others feel like amateur cosplayers - which is maybe what they were going for, but it's not something that made me care for them.

Minsc and Jaheira: Eh, they are fine. Didn't spend enough time with them to judge. Minsc because I got him near the end of the game, and Jaheira because shapeshifting requires hotbar rearrengement after every use. They seem like good takes on classic characters.

Minthara: She wasn't available on good path when I played the game, so don't know anything about her.

Shadowheart: I like her less after seeing the story through. I thought Shar's involvement in the story was rather artificial, and for all the grandeur and time her story was given it was really shallow and predictable. It doesn't help that one of the classic BG1&2 characters was a victim of her storyline. It would be fine, if her story was as brief as BG2 stories were. She runs into what I would call a "Dragon Age" problem - a shallow, generic and predictable story stretched over too many conversations and too much of a content.

Wyll: Eh, Wyll. He has potential to be just as good as Lae'zel, with a set up which I think is compelling (a pretender hero), and story beats which tie with main narrative rather well. However, while the 1.0 release greatly improved him in act1, I didn't think his story developed well. I don't think his narrative direction is bad, it just not pulled off particularly well - though that's a common problem with act3.

Gale: He is.... meh? He is always amusing to talk to - a well spoken individual, often hiding his true intentions behind jokes and wit. Not necessarily evil, but also can't be 100% sure of his intentions. Oddly enough, I think that would be enough. His special, world consuming orb somehow made him more boring to me than he should be. An absurd McGuffin which was more distracting than helpful. I think his story was fairly basic and human, and could be done without gods and world endings. As such he ends up being more disposable than he could have been if the stakes were more appropriate to his more personal character growth.

Halsin: Never cared for him in EA, being being romancable I felt he had very little to offer.


So in the nutshell: Laez surprised me in a positive way. The rest is either where I was with them during EA, or disappointed.

In order of appearance:

Lae'zel
My powergamer instincts made me instantly like Lae'zel, because she carries the team so much. As a character she had a clear motivation and goal from the beginning, and though it could clash and cause rifts with the group, I always liked that she had her own agenda. My impression later only improved because there was character development as she begins to question what she has been taught to believe. MVP and top tier character to me.

Shadowheart
She clicked well with my first character in my first playthrough and I really got into the story and romance. Subsequent playthroughs I started to feel she suffered a bit from main character syndrome. I like to take the companions along when the story relates to them and act 2 has so much that relates to Shadowheart, so she's like always there and it gets a bit repetitive. So great first impression, but a bit too one note down the line.

Astarion
Annoyed me during the first act, because even though we can be on the same page about looking out for ourselves first, my characters usually want to be smart about it and having Astarion disapprove every time I don't outright insult or threaten somebody feels like he missed the part of the plan where we are actually in a bit of pickle and cannot afford to make enemies with everyone. Like Lae'zel I like that he has his own agenda and I am always down for his smartass comments. He has a good character arc and his responses and reactions improve a lot over the game so I will say my impression improved.

Gale
Gale didn't immediately appeal to me. But in my first playthrough I needed a spellcaster and his portent ability for my crit-hunter main character. And he really grew on me as a team mate and friend (it was early Gale so he also had that weird crush going for a long time, but we got our relationship sorted out eventually). No matter which part Gale plays in my playthrough I always think he plays it really well. He is great as a romanced companion, works really well as best friend and also works as an advisor and mentor if I want him to play a less active role. If I ever fail the roll to pull him out of the portal in honor mode I would probably restart.

Wyll
Wyll had everything I like in a character. A backstory that sets up a great conflict for his character arc and motivations along with a distinct trademark personality (lots of people find his blade of frontiers shtick ridiculous, but I really like it because it immediately establishes who he is as a character). But his content is lacking so we never get as much story and character out of him as we could have had. We get so much that we could unravel about him in act 1, and then a lot of it never leads anywhere other than Mizora is bad and mean to poor Wyll. If I had a top pick for a character I would want to see in a spinoff or sequel, it's Wyll, because we have so much more we could explore around him as a character.

Karlach
Karlach was iontroduced as a big and strong potty-mouth with limited impulse control, what was there not to like? I instantly liked Karlach and despite the fact that her story isn't that comprehensive (fix engine, hate Gortash), I still think it delivers when it's there. When she gets serious, it really tugs at the emotional strings. Like Wyll, the impression is that there are a few things left hanging in act 3 where Karlach could have had more history with the city to explore.

Minthara
Minthara was initially just a boss fight, since recruiting her required you to go murderhobo which is a playstyle I hate. I've recrutied her on subsequent playthroughs, but I dislike the non-murderhobo recruitment path as well because it feels odd and gamey. But as a character, I quite like her. She plays the part of villainous drow very well and her insight and comments are fun and different. Sadly, she is still in a bit of a mess with things that are broken and not working properly so it's hard to judge her fairly. If Larian finally fixes all the broken stuff, she could be great.

Jaheira
Great introduction as a returning legacy character and I think they really gave her proper care for how she was going to be portrayed in this story. I missed quite a few places where she had specific story involvement in my first playthrough, and I enjoyed finding those on subsequent runs. Good dynamics with Minsc that I feel lives up to what I expected.

Halsin
Initially I found him a bit boring and superflous, I don't really like druids and it was just the standard tirade about nature that I come to expect whenever a druid character is introduced, but ok as a character who was wise and calm and not as over the top as the others. Then in act 3 he transformed into the type of person who ticks every one of my icks. Just a big turn-off for me personally and that just made me park him in camp for good. Since he also doesn't have any story involvement in that act, there is no incentive to bring him along for a specific location or quest.

Minsc
Another legacy character that is introduced well. But once you've done the space hamster and Minsc is nice but kind of a knucklehead, the character is sort of done. Also, I find it so hard to spec him, because I have to figure out what role he is going to play and find equipment for him that someone else isn't already using, so he ends up getting a lot of hand-me-downs from stuff that the others don't need anymore and is not as optimized as the rest. So he gets to tag along for specific Minsc stuff, but I don't really use him much outside of that.

Would you mind elaborating on that hype? I feel like there's some context or something I'm missing that's keeping me from understanding exactly what you mean.


I keep seeing mentions of her and feeling like I really missed out XD


What makes her seem judgmental to you?

The long and short of it is "Karlach disapproves". For context my Tav's alignment are True Neutral so they take decisions based on what is best for the group or the realm, not what is considered Good or Evil. I would maybe have had some specific dialouge examples, but it's been over a year (time flies, huh?) since she was active in my party. Now I don't pick her up or leave her in camp.
I can imagine she is a perfect fit for a good align Tav though.

Astarion: I still like the old Gremlin a lot, but like Fylimar, I think he is overrated. Overall, I got the impression that his writing is far more concerned with portraying a character than giving the player a companion to interact with. Choosing him as my Avatar, however, has become my favourite way to play the game. Especially stepping away from the ritual is such a good scene in his origin because all of the other companions (apart from Minth and DJ Shart) do a much better job in talking him down than Tav.

Gale: Besti! He had me at “a helping hand” and I have only grown to love him better since. I like how he wants to be good, but is often distracted by his insecurities and so his greatest enemy is within himself. I love the banter he has with the other companions (especially the girls) and I think he is overall the best written companion in the game. His player-dialogue is always excellent. You can easily read it aloud or imagine in another character’s voice to create a cinematic scene, and I love how you are given great flexibility about in which direction you want to take a conversation. Again like Fylimar, I have come to appreciate how his writing uses dice-rolls too. In matters which relate to his decision making and mental health, no rolls are used, only what you say to him counts. It is so refreshing. I also discovered how many dialogue variations he has for Avatar-Origins and player classes, interacting with him as cleric-Shadowheart was quite different from rogue (or rogue/bard) Astarion in some places. 

Halsin: I like him as an NPC but think he is pretty lame and somewhat creepy as a companion. I do like that he was given a platonic route, which is nice, but otherwise my opinion hasn’t changed much: He stays in camp - or at the temple. 

Jaheira: Camp-Granny, I love her and I do really enjoy her quest and the interaction with her family. I maybe love her a little more since discovering her secret room.

Karlach: She is a bit of an up and down for me. I like her well enough, especially her banter with Gale is a delight, but when I noticed how badly the game wants me to like her and how much she derails some other quests, I got a bit resentful towards her. The resentment has simmered down again, so I enjoy her once more but still, there are a few things I am salty about.

Lae’zel: She’s a good one and her romance is funny. I liked her right from the moment when she offered to teach Gale secret fighting styles and not much has changed since then.

Minsc: I didn’t expect to like him but he and Boo are surprisingly good to be around. He may tag along some time. 

Minthara: I am so glad you can take her along now on a “good” run and was delighted to get to know her. I hope that her goodish recruitment gets smoothed out more, because I really don’t want to leave her behind anymore. 

Scratch & Cub: Such good boys, not much has changed.

Shadowheart: I initially hated how she was all sweet to my character and bitchy towards the rest, now I simply recruit her late and she is equally awful to all of us in act 1. Problem solved. Plus, I do like her low approval dialogue during the tiefling party. Apart from all this, she is fairly inoffensive as a character and has a bit of main character syndrome because of how often you have to drag her around for her quest. This makes her a very fun origin to play as avatar though. 

Tara: Always a delight! I wish her act 3 interactions for Avatar-Gale weren’t so easy to miss as they are quite essential. 

Wyll: I initially thought he was moralising and boring. Now I still think he is moralising but that saving Karlach completely derails his quest and the lack of content does the rest. I do like him much better when I allow him to kill Karlach than when he saves her and is basically reduced to being her sidekick.

Would you mind elaborating on that hype? I feel like there's some context or something I'm missing that's keeping me from understanding exactly what you mean.

I don't know, what you mean with elaborating? You just have to go to any social media about BG3 (this one included) and Shadowheart and Astarion will be front and center more often than not in lot of conversations and topics.

I see where you're coming from now, thanks.


On that note, I want to recommend playing a gith Tav and taking the hostile options! It's whole different experience, where Shadowheart and the gith are concerned.


Aw, you meant popular? That makes sense to me now, thanks.

I quite like when characters are judgemental or opposed to Tav or other people based on their personality and background. For me it makes me appreciate them more, because I am not looking for a cheerleader for my character, but a companion with their own personal views and agenda. Some conflicts and dynamics are good for storytelling.

For example, Astarion being a narcissist is often fitting, because in his life as a prisoner of Cazador he has been conditioned to look out for himself and that altruism never pays off (except when it just comes off as petty like it does sometimes in act 1 - I am just being polite because that is usually a better way to get what I want out of people than insulting them, you don't need to judge me Astarion).

Another example is Karlach getting furious if you make a deal with Raphael, because she knows what is attached to those kinds of deals. Or Lae'zel scolding me for showing sympathy with the tieflings, because to her they are merely pieces to getting to the creche and achieving what she seeks. None of those occasions when the companions disagree with me, or disapprove of my decisions by being snarky, judgy or scolding bother me. It only bothers me when it seems out of place or there's no real reason for the character to react that way.

Suspicious boss lady Jaheira in act 2 is one of my favourite interactions, I just want to ask her to interrogate me some more (maybe I should go seek out the librarian in Sharess' Caress, too bad she is dead).

I agree with them being opposed to Tav. I don't mind it either. Actually I kind of like it. I love when they rub against Tav, like Shadowheart and Lea'zel in Act 1. Astarion even though he is my favorite don't always agree with my Tav. Something about Karlach though just don't work for me. She was just a constant nay-sayer at the back of the group.

Lae'zels and Jaheiras introductions are my favourites actually, because they are not friendly, but extremely practical. Lae'zel would never had even talked to us in a different situation, but she knows, she needs help and is honest enough to take it. And Jaheira was never someone beating around bushes, so that fits.

What I do like about both Lae'zel and Karlach is, that they are totally honest from the beginning. It's refreshing, since that is not do often the case with videogame companions and the others are not so forthcoming. Well the non origins are, but for them, there is no reason to lie. I'd probably not want to tell complete strangers, that I worship one of the most evil goddesses, being a vampire, having to consume magic or turn into an atomic bomb or being a fiendlock. Minthara and Halsin are already known to the group when we get them, though I did thought, we would find out, that Haldin is a werebear tbh, since he doesn't seem to have his bearshape under control, when even a level 2 druid can do that, and they scratched the werewolf origin.

In my experience Karlach was very much right in front and in my face whenever she disagreed, however the only real major disagreement I've seen with her is making a deal with Raphael as she is usually more on the same page as my characters (we like to swear and kick things).


I am always amused at how confident Lae'zel is in her superiority. Like she is literally caught in a cage about to get killed off by two tiefling commoners and yet she still acts like she is irreplacable. But I also have to hand it to her, that she backs that up. The standard solution to every challenging encounter is to simply apply Lae'zel.

When you play as Astarion, right after she tells you that controlling the tadpole isn't an option, you get dialogue options telling you how tasty she smells - and that was the end of Lae'zel in my first Astarion run. ^^

I do like adversity best, when it is used to learn more about the involved characters and helps to bring them closer together because their relationship gets stronger through the conflict. Gale has a great example of this: When he first asks you for magical items, you can push twice into his mind to find out why he is so cagey about the reason. If you succeed, you can simply go on without saying anything but you also are given the options to be terrified or to feel bad about your transgression and confess. Gale understandably gets angry and you have to persuade (or intimidate I think) him into seeing your side of the situation, if successful he relents and is happy about your support, if you botch too many of these rolls he might leave because they cause pretty strong disapprovals. It's such a good scene because I can understand both sides of the conflict, but I especially love it because it allows for more complex player emotions, you can be scared of the orb and you can feel bad for exploiting the tadpole and try to fix it.

Astarion: at first I was mildly annoyed by how mean he was all the time, but now he is one of my favorites. His arc with Cazador was beautiful.

Lae'zel: same as above. I do still get annoyed at her pushiness in act 1 (IE telling me she wants to taste my sweat within ten minutes of meeting me and then condescends when I say no... how the hell is Halsin the one that got labeled a creep by half the fanbase when Lae'zel does THIS?) but if I ignore that part I love her.

Gale: annoyed the shit out of me from early on, and this hasn't changed. His constant condescension is a bit too much for me and I tend to kind of ignore him once I've served up his last plate of shoes.

Karlach: loved her from the very start, and continue to do so. Her storyline is one of the most compelling, I just wish she got a happier ending.

Wyll: ditto, though I also wish in his case that he had more agency. He feels like he takes a back seat in his own story more than any of the other companions.

Shadowheart: eh on her at first, but once she became nicer and turned away from Shar I started to love her. I love how awkward she is underneath the goth exterior- the night orchid exchange is what really did it and made me adore her.

Minthara: I still kill her every time. I did watch some videos of her and she's kind of funny sometimes, I guess, so she has more redeeming qualities than I initially anticipated. I might recruit her in a future playthrough to be Orin bait since i'm tired of Gale and Lae'zel's scenes.

Halsin: was the first character I heard about, so I knew I'd love him before I started playing. First playthrough I fell in love with his respect for consent and healthy communication, his love for the defenseless like animals and children, and him being the literal only companion who doesn't guilt trip me for making party adjustments, and I've only loved him more every playthrough. My real only complaint is that he should have been recruitable right after the goblin party.

Jaheira: liked her sass at first. I do still love her, though I kind of soured on her a bit after 100 too many posts that complain excessively about Halsin being a Druid when she's there. I don't get the "too many Druids" complaint- if it's that annoying, isn't that what Withers is for? Jaheira being a Druid isn't relevant to the story at all, if you asked me to guess what class she was without knowing anything I would have guessed ranger or fighter (which makes sense given BG2/BG2). She can be reclassed without changing anything.

Minsc: eh. He's alright. I feel like his recruitment is far more trouble than he's worth (I guess I might feel differently if I was a big BG1/BG2 fan) especially for where it is in act 3, which makes it hard for me to get invested in him too much. I do love Boo, though, and some of his lines crack me up. I wish we could have recruited him at the end of act 2, but then I guess there are already too many recruitments happening and it might feel overwhelming.

I am guessing this is more of a rhetorical question since you have probably followed the many lengthy discussions about Halsin that have just been going around in circles. But if you are genuinely confused I think it mainly boils down to three groups of people.

1. The homophobic straight males who find it gross to be hit on by a man, but hot if a woman hits hits on them. They have the same issues with Gale and Wyll even though they have a far less blunt and aggressive approach than Karlach and Lae'zel.

2. Shadowheart and Astarion stans that are fiercely protective of their li and take dislike towards sharing the attention of their li with Halsin and are more neutral towards Lae'zel who they don't see as competing for that attention.

3. Women and queer people who have had negative experiences with uncomfortable interactions with older white men that sound a lot like Halsin. Even in my limited experience with dating apps and social media, I've had those weird interactions through DMs with random older men who approach you out of nowhere, and oddly I've never had that issue with young, brainwashed, fascist, alien frog girls. So Lae'zel just doesn't trigger that same ick reaction (Edit: Though, if I had had such experiences, I am sure Lae'zel would be equally triggering)

But, to be clear, our experiences with media are always personal and subjective. There's no absolute truth that we have to agree on. I am not trying to ruin anyone's positive impressions by trying to convince them that they are wrong. My mantra always is, other people are not in my game and I am not in theirs, so how they enjoy and play their game has no effect on me.

I just don't like Halsin, because he ads nothing to the story after his quest in act 2. So yes, Jaheira is my go to druid companion (since BG1, she is the best).
I'm not at all attracted to Halsin, so the romance is no argument to keep him either. If people like him - power to you. I just don't care about him, he is just the spare to get abducted in my games.

Yeah, I am firmly in group three there. Though a special honorary mention goes to the "carrion bird" comment and his whole behaviour when you take him and Gale to the drow. Admittedly this interaction made me feel disgusted of myself too. The revamp made it fine without Halsin, but I don't think anything has changed if he's involved. It's probably a little unfair to mention this again and again but the original scene deeply rattled me in how it turned both myself and Halsin into pretty horrible people.

I also feel that both Lae'zel and Gale's "fighting with you is hot" & "I like your musk" scenes are slightly played for humour (what they are saying in contrast to their highly poetic language) and in Gale's case come with enough awareness of maybe overstepping that he only gets into the full swing of things if you signal that you feel the same.

But yes, I also don't want to sour anyone's perception of their favourite charaster.

Nah, still shallow and predictable.
If you had played any rpg in the last 30 years or watched any TV show you could predict the story of each companion 5 minutes after meeting them. (Granted, it required some meta game knowledge of Larian being very conservative and risk averse, so there was no chance of them making any surprising turns with companions).

And if you know anything about the FR you could play "spot the difference" with the D&D original and Larians lazy copy.

The only real change was when Larian catered even more to fan demand which made the companions even worse.

Edit: To be more specific

Shadowheart: Most overused trope imagineable. While her background as cultist for the god of lies could serve for good characterization and some awesome mind games Larian was clearly too afraid to do anything with her and instead stuck with "designated waifu", meaning all edges were filed off and it was clear from the start that she can easily be fixed with just a few kind words which is also what happened.

Lae'zel: Similar issues than Shadowheart. Her arc was very obvious and telegraphed right from the start. Her background, too was much to underused in order to keep her likeable for romance purposes and after the first story beat in the druid camp where she acts very arrogant she softens very quickly without any reason. Her fight with Shadowheart is also a very underused opportunity and marks the end of anything interesting about her.

Astarion: Same as the other two (a common trend, Larian was not exactly creative when it comes to character archetypes. "Betrayed by authority figure" describes half the party).
While his story had potential to be interesting, but Larian was too afraid to do anything with it or let him be actually evil and from his design and mannerism it was clear that he was designed as romance target. And once it became clear that this is indeed the extend of his character and outside that has the same type of tragic backstory and being easily fixable like everyone else I lost all interest in him.
It doesn't help that Larian even chickened out of making him an actual vampire and instead made a Twilight "in name only" version instead.

Gale: Gale is a victim of Larians lazy writing. His backstory being a near exact copy of Elminster soured my impression of him by a lot. And his character arc as designated bomb might have been interesting, if the game would not be D&D, where ressurecting people is common and we in fact ressurected people the whole time, reducing death to the equivalent to a bathroom break. Even outside of the ressurect-o-tron, Larian made him such a special character that it is near guaranteed that he would come back in some way as archmage chosen always do.

Wyll: Same handicap as Gale, his backstory being a watered down version of Rise of the Dragon Queen. Get more creative Larian!
I had high hopes for him in act 3 which is why I kept him around, but when it turned out that despite him being nobility politics is not a factor I dropped him instantly as it reduced his status to that of a wet blanked who can't do anything in my eyes.

Karlach: From all companions the least conventional trope. Doomed, but instead of moping about it, wanting to spend the remaining time the best way possible. Only soured by the game being D&D and death not meaning anything.
Initially I was skeptical after her tantrum but her not 100% predictable arc made her my favorite, although I am not sure if Larian planned that or just ran out of time when implementing saving her, considering how safe they play all stories (which also made this result an actual surprise)
I also think she got hit by extensive reworks as her anger issue takes a backseat quite fast.

Halsin: Not a character. Painfully obvious that he was written as an NPC and that his story ends in act 2. He only got made into a companion because EA player wanted to ride his bear meat and that is the extend of his personality.
Wasted space.

Didn't play much with the legacy characters, so no comment on them.

Overall all characters are various degrees of bad and stay that way. Main reason is imo that Larian was too afraid to do anything interesting with them and instead kept them simple for maximum mass market appeal and hornyness.

Also Larian overused the same tropes over and over again. Tragic backstory, betrayed by authority figure.

Other RPGs have much more varied tropes like (pulled from Owlcat games), "proud to be evil" characters that can rationally argue why, and can't be fixed, successfull characters without tragic backstory, the pretty female companion being an unlikeable murder psycho instead of mellow waifu or redeeming evil characters by absolutely humiliating and breaking them instead of saying a few nice things and they are good now and getting backstabbed by good characters that are blackmailed.

Larian would do well to get more creative and brave with companion instead of making the same character archetype, tragic backstory and easily fixable, which the fandom/shipping community likes so much over and over again.

I think I get into the bff-zone with Gale too quickly. He always shares the whole story really early. Usually when he starts asking for artefacts I am sitting on some useless magic items that don't even bring a good price at the merchants, so I usually just go whatever and throw some boots at him and his approval goes up so much. Like I am not going to start a big fight and pull knives to defend a pair of gloves worth 12 gold. If the items he needed were more rare and valuable it would put a little more gravity to the decision, but since magic items are a dime a dozen already in act 1, it just doesn't feel like a tough decision.

From the perspective of my one playthru Tav, Sava, I guess she got along with Astarion least, since they were two very different flavours of evil, selfish vs. habitual. They bonded over brutal killing, but fought over who wanted the book more, team building and about siding with devils and thieves a lot. This only changed about mid-act 3 when they reached some mutual respect and understanding.

As a grounded, middle-aged Githyanki, Lae'zel was a focus of both envy and sarthly instincts for Sava, as she came from a very prestigious crèche and had a bad tendency to rush into action without a proper plan. Sharing a bunk probably wasn't a good idea either. They broke up late in act 1, had a major fight over going to Crèche Y'llek in the Gauntlet of Shar and only truly bonded over the events there and their determination to help Voss.

Shadowheart fascinated Sava from the beginning, they started romancing in late act 1, and are now reported to share a farm with wizard tower in the lower Chionthar area.

Astarion, Shadowheart and Sava found Wyll before Lae'zel cage, so he completed the first Act I line-up as the token good character. Sava had decided that siding with the druids was the wiser choice, so having a local folk hero was perfect. While she didn't agree with each of his decisions, she respected Wyll's spirit and learning curve, so he remained a valued ally as we explored his past, pacts and every dungeon between the Wilderness and Baldur's Gate. But then, in Sava's view, the whole Ansur fiasco broke his mind. (I did this one just before Gortash and going to the Morphic Pool.) The Wyll they met at Reunion Camp may have just as well spent the time lost in the Wood of Sharp Teeth with Scratch keeping the "Blade of Avernus" safe from Ogres and Kobolds.

Gale had a bad start with Sava. Not only did she see him as wizardly competition, but he also burned through their magic items like Kobolds in a distillery. However, his sagely advice and solid evocation spells often saved the day, so the two became good friends and Gale a regular on the team.

Karlach completed the "girls' night out" line-up with Sava, Shadowheart and Lae'zel. This is the team that did most of the exploring, since their skills were well balanced and allowed them to pass most trials. When a quest was personal, a lock too hard to pick, an enemy asked for more arcane firepower or the situation required a hamster, the experts were called in, but this crew was the Gondian pocket knife. As Wyll, Shadowheart and Lae'zel descended to the riverside, they expected a tough boss-fight against what sounded like a Cornugon. It proceeded to become increasingly awkward, as first Wyll's file on Karlach fell apart at the binds, and then we had to admit that we already killed the jerks hunting her, because we wanted their stuff more. Karlach was the bubbling soul of the party, and I'm still hoping for a happier ending for her utilising the enhanced infernal metal. Shadowheart switched to camp duties after her parents were found, but Sava stayed with her friend Karlach until the end.

Call it a weak-spot for elves, but Sava fell for Halsin's charm early. He influenced Sava to take a road closer to the light side. I guess with Jaheira and Minsc there wasn't much of a change from my first impression to the last. Jaheira was, of course, invaluable when exploring Baldur's Gate, and Minsc was much needed comic relief when the end was looming. I only found out you could get Minthara as a companion when I was way past the Goblin Camp.

I know the thread has moved on, but just in case anyone is tempted to go back and further explore the digression, could I just ask that focus here on sharing our own impressions and preferences rather than theorising what’s behind others’ perspectives?

Thank you!

Sounds like you are describing your impression from a roleplaying-perspective, like what impression your character had of the companions. That's an interesting angle, because what my characters might think of the companions would differ from what I personally think.

Interesting topic for a spinoff-thread of its' own I think.

Really interesting to read folks’ different takes. For me, one of the most enjoyable aspects of replaying the game is experiencing the differences in the way the companions develop and the feeling of the relationships with them, depending on the character I’m playing. Though admittedly some companions feel more complex and sophisticated than others, and I don’t feel I’ve fully explored all of them.

Gale was an EA fave and still is now. It was clear his mix of ambition, arrogance, romanticism, humour, open-mindedness and kindness could pull him in different directions, and I think the writers and actor pulled this off brilliantly. He’s ended up a god, a professor and a martyr in my finished playthroughs, but in each he’s felt like a genuine friend of my PC. I’ve also got current runs one with a PC romancing him, and another evil run where the relationship feels a lot rockier and darker, and I’m looking forward to seeing how things develop.

Astarion was another EA favourite who more than lived up to my hopes due to the writing and acting. His story played out similarly with my first two characters: an early fling, followed by a strong platonic friendship and moving rejection of ascension. In the third he didn’t like my nature paladin character (who had an unrequited crush) nearly as much and things felt much tenser though by the end they were friends. I’ve not even experienced his full romance or ascension paths yet, so lots to look forward to.

Shadowheart was up there with Gale and Astarion for me in EA but somehow she was less snarky, sarcastic and manipulative than I’d hoped, and despite maybe being the only original BG fan who actually enjoyed the House of Grief, it didn’t really feel as though the relationship with SH developed in act 3. Though perhaps that was because her ouchy bug overrode all party banter, she died in the Shadowfell in one run and I’ve not yet finished romance or DJ runs with her, so will keep trying.

Lae’zel somehow hasn’t found a regular place in my EA or full runs, and ended up on a slab for much of act 3 all three times I’ve got that far. I think she’s hilarious and, from the brief fling with one of my PCs before the latter broke it off, the romance path looked as though it would be fun, but I still don’t feel like I know her. It was heartbreaking not to be able to persuade her to reject Vlaakith in my first run, and her story ended tragically, and she felt like a friend and companion with a happier ending in my other runs, and again there are more permutations to try and I’m looking forward to a run where she’s a more core part of the gang. The rapidity and completeness with which she could turn on Vlaakith did surprise me, but on reflection it made sense that whatever she does, Lae’zel goes all in.

Wyll didn’t convince me totally in EA. I liked the idea of the character but it felt as though there were too many facets that just didn’t gel and it was probably right to rewrite him. But you just can’t please some people, and now I feel he doesn’t have enough facets or complexity and I prefer my lawful good characters with a bit more humour and light and shade. But I do like the idea of a paladinly warlock and enjoyed the slow burn, slightly awkward romance from my first playthrough even though it did feel a bit threadbare, and his connection to the plot is great even if not as much is made of it as it could be. And Mizora is hilarious and fabulous, so I guess that was the good surprise from Wyll’s story. And that all said, Wyll will likely be my first origin character run (hoping I can find a way to RP him that I find a bit more compelling) and I love the idea of being able to play a warlock with a patron who is in game.

Karlach had a tough gig, breaking into the gang after I’d already played hundreds of hours in EA with the others. I was pleasantly surprised by her after her somewhat bloodthirsty intro in EA, and thought the choice to make her so bouncy and in some ways younger than her years both meshed in an interesting way with an emotional barbarian character, and made sense in the context of someone who was trafficked as a relative youngster (if not quite a child soldier) so whose development in certain ways was stunted and in other ways accelerated. And she has those powerful emotional scenes that brought a tear to my eye in various permutations, even if I was a bit grumpy when she upstaged my PC’s own moving death scene.

Halsin didn’t pan out as I expected. Kudos to Larian for not doing the obvious and making the distant and wise-seeming ancient druid lusty and actually kind of insecure, and as unsure what he’s really meant to be doing in act 3 after breaking the curse that’s been his focus for a century as I was. I was glad he was there as a LI for my second PC who felt the others were all a bit too demanding of commitment and to pick up the pieces after Astarion didn’t warm to my third, but I am among the folk who find that some of his interactions strike a bum note for PCs who aren’t attracted to him.

Minthara I don’t know yet. I brought her along via the KO route on my last playthrough but she didn’t really get on with my PC. Though some of her lines were unexpectedly hilarious, as fylimar said. My evil Durge currently at Rosymorn did have an interlude with her post-grove-slaughter and is looking forward to getting to know her better.

Jaheira was brilliantly done, with writing and acting both great and true to the BG1/2 character while updating her for this sort of game. I just loved seeing glimpses of the life and family she’d made for herself.

Minsc and Boo were also well done, but given how late we recruit them the relationship feels a bit rushed and forced (which is kind of acknowledged) and I’ve not kept him active in my party yet. Given the characters could just be a one note joke, I think it’s great Minsc can occasionally give my PCs pause, while still making me laugh and recognisably being the character from previous games, albeit a more fully developed version. I’m determined to give the pair more adventuring time in a future run.

Wyll might be the only origin, I would maybe play at some point. He has main character energy, is pretty involved in the main plot and as RQ mentioned: his patron is actually in the game and the stakes are high.

I have different relationships with the companions depending on who I play.
I also choose romances mostly by the roleplaying aspect. If I would go by attraction, I would romance Karlach every time, but I romanced everyone with different characters ( apart from Halsin and Minthara, the latter just never liked me enough to start a romance in act 3, I'm too good for her, literally :-D)

Technically The Dark Urge is an origin, but obviously we are talking about origin companions. I will probably always play a character I can fully customize on my own. Pre-defined characters in rpg games just does not appeal to me.

I've had playthroughs where I have dismissed or killed companions that I like based on how I roleplay my character. Astarion has been senf off during the bite night, because my manipulative character saw him as a rival that played the same game (yes all of the companions up tp that point, except Lae'zel and Karlach, are a bit deceitful, but my character recognized that Astarion was good at it, and as such a larger threat). I've had Shadowheart getting killed when she tries to murder Lae'zel because my hothead character wasn't the type of person who would just tell the girlies that we need to talk this out, but reacted to someone taking a knife to one of the party members throat by immediately intervening and attacking them.

I like coming up with headcanons for my romances about what has been happening behind the scenes to create the bond and attraction between my MC and the companion and how they might be an odd matching, but there are sides to them that they don't show or even know about that brings them together.

I prefer making my own characters too, which is the reason, I haven't played Disco Elysium or Witcher yet, despite liking Geralt in the books. I like developing my characters and back stories.
And yeah, I would sacrifice characters if it serves roleplay purposes. My good aligned gnome artificer would not dream of trying to save the evil drow, who wants to kill her friends in the Grove ( she is best buddies with Rolan and siblings, protective of Silfy, who seems not fit into Mols little crime sindicate, and has a crush on Nettie)

Lae'zel
It was love at first sight, to such a degree that I played my entire first playthrough with two pure fighters. I just couldn't bring myself to put her on the sideline since my Tav was a fighter. I started courting Shadowheart, but her being all mysterious and secretive made it all too easy to fall into Laezel's arms when she showed interest. The rest is history... My opinion has not changed, I love Laezel and it is only with great effort of will that I let her rest any playthrough.

Shadowheart
First impression was that of an annoying emo with phoney secrecy, first playthrough I was mostly annoyed and did not interact a lot with her at all after Laezel swept me off my feet. Subsequent playthroughs I have gotten to know her better and I really appreciate her character arc. Probably the companion my of whom my impression has changed the most.

Astarion
First impression was "oh darn, this one is going to stab me in the back eventually" and I kept interactions as brief as possible. Him being a vampire didn't make me trust him any more... Since my fighter Tav had Urchin background I took care of the rogue role myself and Astarion stood loitering in camp the entire playthrough. Later on I have come to appreciate him more, he has a truly tragic, heart-wrenching story that makes me empathise with him despite his clearly selfish tendencies.

Gale
I've never liked him, from the first time I pulled him out of the rock to my current playthrough I just can't empathise with him. The fact that he started eating magic objects right off the bat didn't help of course, but I believe it's mostly a personality clash. I don't like too much talking - and he talks A LOT.

Wyll
Thought him a one-dimensional bore at first, left him in the Grove first playthrough... Next time I was so annoyed with Gale that I decided to use Wyll as the primary spellslinger and I got to see that he has a lot more depth than I thought at first. I like him a lot.

Karlach
My girl <3 Loved her from the first interaction and her ending broke my heart in a way I never thought a computer game could. Still love her, so my opinion has not changed much from the first impression.

Minthara
My encounter with Minthara at the gobbo camp has never ended in any other way than me killing her. She's an arrogant villain and the mission is to take her out, so how could it end any differently? Anyway I could never side with the gobbos, and knocking her uncon just to pick her up later is a little too meta for me. From what I've seen on youtube it seems like a fun character, but knowing myself I'd probably end up fighting her later on if I recruited her, she's just too evil...

Jaheira
I've had a crush on Jaheira since BG1 so when she appeared in Act 2 I was delighted - then she kamikaze'd into a throng of absolutists and was torn to bits before I could react. I was like wtf have they done to Jaheira?!?! Next run I managed to keep her alive and could recruit her. Love her, although the exaggerated body language in dialogues can be a bit annoying.

Halsin
Don't like him. Comes across as a self-important poser. I've never interacted with him more than to get the Act 2 quests to progress.

Minsc
Bro Minsc, loved this guy ever since BG1 and I think he was introduced to BG3 in a great manner. Not much of an arc to him since he is introduced so late though. They just buggered his game stats up royally - Minsc does NOT have 12 strength. In BG1 he was a brutal berserker, in BG3 he is defaulted to an archer. If you want to make him seem more like himself in play you need to respec him, that's a huge miss on Larian's part.

Hah, sorry about that! I've been DMing AD&D for close to thirty years now, so I was entirely playing through that filter with a lot of glossing over to head-canon when I had the chance to be a player and play someone's campaign for once. My personal view on the companions actually didn't change that much. I went in with some sort of apprehension that the game and its characters may be too Wizards of the Coast-D&D for me to indulge in, but found the characters and their stories very enjoyable and suitable for a Forgotten Realms-campaign. While I was trying to find the story I want to tell with Sava, I don't think I heaped too many expectations on the companions. Maybe some of my character's disappointment with the Blade of Avernus was my own, though. Up until that point I thought his story was solid!

I found it really interesting as I also choose a lot of interactions based on what my character would think of this person, not what I would think.

So I'll make a separate thread where we can discuss our roleplaying impressions with freedom to include whatever headcanons we want.

My answer to this question is kind of boring. My opinions on the characters have barely changed. This might be due in part that I've been playing since EA so I've been around both to see the datamines and make my own (ultimately right) conclusions about where their arcs would go.

I generally enjoy all companions. I think my opinion on Wyll got worse with Full Release because I really liked him in EA and I find his newer version a bit blander (I tend to dislike very nice, morally spotless characters). I already disliked Halsin in EA, and it did get worse with Full Release. I really liked EA Shadowheart, and while I still enjoy her in FR, I have to say I was slightly let down, but her actress did an amazing job and she has a lot of charming moments. I think that's about it regarding opinion changes.

Astarion: Bounced off him hard. He's very...whiny not a fan. Also his story has bits I'm not a fan of.

Gale: I adore Gale. Absolute fave.

Wyll: Liked him more in EA but I still like him

Lae'zel: I was neutral on her but she's a fav now.

Shadowheart: I went from dislike to neutral so improvement?

Minthara: Love her no notes

Halsin: Neutral really. Like he's fine I guess? Kind of just there.

Jaheria: I like her *way* more than I did in the original games which is great.

Minsc: He's fine.

Karlach: not a fan at all. I just get the robes and move on.

I'm seeing a lot of people pointing this out. There's definitely no reason for most good characters to recruit her, only non-lethal extremists and evil characters have any logical reason to save her. It would be nice if she had some kind of protected status that prevents her from being killed before act 2, so more people could have the experience of an openly evil person helping to save the world lol.


Yeah, I have always thought that was a baffling choice. Granted the default stat distributions all have multiple odd-numbered choices that functionally waste points, but his stats are exceptionally bizarre. I keep wanting to handwave it away but I can't even imagine a reason to do that. And it's such a simple fix, too!

Yeah he is following the standard point distribution when you recruit him. With that, if you look at his stats before you fight him, he has his standard stats. I was hoping a modder would fix this. Jaheria’s stats are also borked.

Jaheria (mind you I would be cool with a few age related adjustments, IIRC 3rd Ed had some rules for this).
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Jaheira

And Minsc for relevance:
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Minsc

The reason is that when Minsc was created barbarian was a subclass of ranger and Minsc clearly was designed for the barbarian subclass.

But people associate Minsc with being a ranger and Larian didn't spend any effort on Minsc and thus made him a generic ranger and slapped the default ranger stats on him which by now changed to a pur archer or dexterity weapon build as barbarian was made into its own class.

This lack of compatibility was exactly why I was initially unsure if I could enjoy the game. Rangers and Barbarians used to be a special kind of Warrior, so you had the extra strength column that other classes, capped at 18 for humans, didn't get. You can use books from across the TSR editions interchangeably with little or no adaptions, but Wizards changed the game and many narratives in such a way that a lot had to be "re-imagined" in distorted form. Luckily, I didn't play the earlier BG titles (yet?), so I met Jaheira, Minsc and Boo for the first time in BG3.

Yeah Minsc's original strength score translates to +2 to attack and +5 to damage so can't be immediately translated to a 5th ed score - but I'd give him 20. If nothing else for the crawling out of a mimic scene.

To get Minsc in BG3 working somewhat like he did in the originals, you need to multiclass him Barbarian/Fighter or even Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter. My last run I gave him 3/3/6 and it worked better than I expected. Since we can respec him it is no biggie, I just think it is unforgivably silly by Larian to introduce Minsc with a scene screaming "Whoa, this guy has superhuman strength!!1!" and then when he joins your party he has a score of 12...

Astarion: First impression - funny, interesting, “Mr. Disapproval”. The knife scene made an impression - I love such surprise plot moves and “non-standard“ variants of getting to know future companions. But then Astarion entered my heart like no other character in any other game before. His story shook me to the core, became much more important than the main storyline or anything else. Astarion is so alive thanks to Neil's wonderful acting, his emotions, his voice, his facial expressions - no fictional character has ever evoked such feelings before. My all time favorite character, just for him I keep logging into the game until now, simply because I start to miss him if I don't see him for a long time. The big disappointment was the writing of his romance (act 3). Not Astarion himself - he's lovely, he has great lines and his gaze alone, the way he looks at Tav, is worth a lot. But extremely, in my opinion, a meager choice of lines for the player, very few not only decent, but at least any acceptable lines for roleplay, rails in the story, imposed mimicry, such novelization I have not yet met in any RPG-game. It changed my opinion a lot, but not of the character, but of the quality of the game as a whole. Fortunately, modders have fixed a great many of his romance's shortcomings, and it's possible to have a much better gaming experience with mods. Still, Astarion's own personality is far more appealing than even a well-written romance in any other game, so it's a truly unique experience.

Minthara: My first impression was wrong. I mistook her for an evil boss only when I found her wearing camp clothes, I thought there was something wrong, but the knockout method didn't work then. On the second playthrough I already knew too much about her to get a fresh first impression, but my overall impression is a wonderful companion, the most intelligent companion in the group. My favorite character #2. Disappointing that she has so little content, and that she's been unfairly neglected.

Lae'zel - first impression is good, liked the fact that she challenges me and argues. Interesting character. To Lae'zel I have no complaints - very interesting personal quest, bright and well revealed and realized character. Plus she's very useful - not a single boss fight was without Lae'zel.

Shadowhart - no complaints either. Her story is moving and she is quite intelligent and observant.

Gale - there are some good interesting lines, funny moments with him. My first impression of him was better than the subsequent ones. But no particular complaints, either. And neither is there any specific sympathy.

Wyll - the first impression is neutral, after negative. Pretty stupid character, I have no sympathy for him, in the first playthrough I completed his quest and uncovered his story, further sits in the camp forever. All I found interesting about him was his personal quest, which is well written and engaging. The character himself, not so much.

Karlach is a character-disappointment. The biggest difference between the first impression (I liked her a lot at first) and the subsequent one. Her intelligence does not shine, in Act 3 her engine problems and constant talk about how she is going to die are already perceived as whining. The quest itself looks unfinished and underdeveloped, in my first playthrough I always try to complete all companion's quests in as much detail as possible, and Karlach looked like the only companion with an underdeveloped quest. But speaking of her, I don't really care.

Minsc, Jaheira are my least favorite companions. Minsc is much more in line with the original than Jaheira, but I don't have the patience to see them around for longer than it took to complete their quests in the first playthrough. I liked them better in previous games in the BG series, though I was never a big fan of them. If Larian had paid more attention to their own characters instead, the game would have been better in my opinion.

Halsin - stands apart. The character, in my opinion, could have been realized much better. He had much more interesting potential in EA. In the first playthrough I had an extremely negative attitude towards him. Later - I decided to be open-minded, skipping with the help of the “space” key his “offer”, simply refusing him and not paying attention to his obsession. In everything else - a good, adequate companion, more pleasant than many other “good” companions, like the same Wyll. He doesn't have many lines, but I didn't find anything repulsive or silly. It was a character with a good idea, but not the best realization.

Not exactly: Ranger was itself a subclass of Fighter back in BG1 days (2nd edition D&D) Barbarian and Berserker were kits from the Complete Fighters Handbook. People could have applied them to Fighter subclasses too, although a separate Handbook appeared later for Rangers.

Hm, a lot of different opinions here! My biggest impressions:

Karlach: Didn't enjoy her. Felt a bit like a character out of a children's cartoon personality wise to me.

Halsin: Loved. His personality was more layered than it seemed at the surface. Always a sucker for 'personal sacrifice for the good of the people' types.

Gale: Something about him made me uncomfortable. Can't really put my finger on it. He has some sweet moments, but I had difficulty keeping him in party because he somehow made my skin crawl.

Wyll: Total prince charming. Was very sad he lost so much content from EA. A good mixture of sweet and strong. And his VA was amazing.

Astarion: Thought his hair was a bit silly (it was a strong first impression lol), but his dorky, morbid sense of humor made him fun to keep around constantly. A party staple.

Minsc and Jaheira: I got the sense they were both very powerful, despite surface appearance. Still waters run deep here.

SH: she was really unpleasant and unenjoyable to talk to. I didn't feel inclined to "impress her" in order to get her to open up. Also her bangs felt so silly. Stuck through it, and by the end of the game I really liked her!

Lae'zel. Ride or die from first meeting. I loved how straightforward and harsh she was, and seeing her convictions get challenged later on...her writers did a great job with it! A well rounded and well thought out character imo.

For me he is usually a little cagey about his request and doesn't want to tell me why he needs our magical items, which makes the whole situation a little suspicious. So if you have a player character who doesn't trust easily and is a bit morally flexible, you might want to abuse your newly gained powers to learn more. What I specifically love about the scene is that it does not have to be a pure exploit of powers (as it is with Astarion) but that you can be apologetic about it, which I really loved as a layer of complexity for my own character. As a player I don't mind feeding him our magic loot either, I feel the Grove is deliberately stacked with a variety of possible Gale dinners. It's a whole different level of pain when you are Avatar-Gale and are basically forced to eat a super nice ring on day one.

I don't like custom characters much in games that have a narratively tight story because I feel it takes too much shoehorning and preplanning to get a satisfyingly impactful story out of it. I know Durge tries to bridge that gap a bit, but I didn't vibe with Duge's writing and it annoyed me pretty quickly. Otoh I am having a great time with Astarion, Gale and Shadowheart as my avatars, and I also like how they shift the main plot to be their personal quest + dealing with the tadpole, instead of putting focus on the whole conspiracy.

Good comparison. Really, pretty infantile behavior for a character who is supposed to be someone who went through the Devil Wars in the Nine Hells. And she regularly uses the word “soldier” even though I find it rather difficult to see her as a “soldier” herself. When she tries to pose as a “protector” towards Tav, it's... just facepalm.


Maybe his hypocrisy? My impression is that Gale is trying hard to show himself to be “good” according to the moral standards of the society around him. He is quite clever, and he generally succeeds. His real attitude is “revealed” in his lines when some misfortune happens to one of his companions (if Astarion catches fire in the sun, the old line before correction, the reaction if you give Shadowheart to Viconia, etc.). I changed my attitude towards him after he demanded that Astarion be kicked out of the camp after learning that he was a vampire, even though he himself is a walking bomb, and he himself was supported and “fed” artifacts to him in every way possible, but when someone else has the problem, and “moral standards” allow such behavior, everything becomes clear with Gale. Gale gets attached to Tav though (but they all do if you properly help them on their quests), and may sacrifice himself at the end. I don't condemn this approach, it's also a survival option, and it didn't make my skin crawl - Gale is a rather weak character, such a person is unlikely to ever dare to stab someone in the back who is strong enough, even if the situation doesn't go the way he wants it to, but he is quite capable of leaving a co-partner to die.


Haha, Astarion's jokes never seemed dorky to me, but periodically made me roll under the table with laughter. In some places in his jokes lies a very even intellectual subtext, well, I'm generally a great connoisseur of black humor, Stephen Rooney managed, certainly managed to impress me with his character's lines. But the jokes of Minsc, on the contrary, maybe once you can laugh at something, but then perceived as: “Oh, no, it's going to be about ‘asses’ again, or about ‘good’, or all together...”. In BG2 the authors somehow managed not to “overdo” Minsk, but in BG3 this character gets tiresome after a while, too hyperbolized fool.


Yeah! I agree. Her straightforwardness is exactly what makes her trustworthy, and it makes me want to impress her and build a good relationship with her. And the way she yells at you, yet gives approval when her beliefs are questioned - a small touch, but a cool character reveal. Her scenario was really well handled.

I really wanted to like Karlach. She reminded me a lot of the first Dovahkiin I ever made in Skyrim way back. It helped a little to lean into the naivety of her a bit. *In my opinion she judges others from a sort of childish morality meter, but is really blind to herself often doing the same thing. When I view it that way, she becomes a bit more empathetic. Ie, she's not as good or perfect as she thinks she is (which is understandable, and makes her naivety a bit more relatable). Though, not someone I'd enjoy on anything but a really good-aligned playthrough! (Which I never really play that way)

Edit for clarity, my evolution of opinion on Karlach is: wanted to like > did not like > learned to roleplay with >ending with seeing the value in her character even if it wasn't for me personally. Apologies for not laying that out more clearly!

For Astarion, his little joke about Halsin making "an excellent shield" is one of my favorite lines. The joke itself is, in my opinion, delightfully morbid (using companions as fodder), but the way he sort of braces himself and leans his shoulder in as he says it is just so endearingly dorky. I already though he was clever before, but seeing him be just outright silly made me like him even more!

For Astarion my evolution of opinion was: judged by appearance > wait he is morbidly funny > oh cool they made him silly, I like himself *a lot* now! Wanted to give my specific example of my favorite joke that pushed that evolution forward. (Sorry if thats off topic!)

It’s pretty clear from reading this thread that we’ve had an interesting variety of reactions to different characters. Let’s try to keep discussion here light and friendly by respecting those different perspectives by avoiding implying that our own views are objective (sometimes a good way to do this is to talk about our impressions of a character, as Natasy does above, as opposed to about what the character is actually like). And by keeping our language calm and moderate when we know we’re making negative comments about characters who, while fictional themselves so don’t have feelings to hurt, can mean a lot to other fans.

Let’s also be careful to avoid derailing the thread by getting involved in detailed side discussions of the characters, rather than how our impressions have changed. Consider starting or resurrecting a different thread if you’d like to discuss a specific character in more detail.

Thanks! (And apologies for moderating before things have actually deteriorated, but from experience here I thought it worth a quick reminder to hopefully help avoid that outcome.)

Alphabetic order:
Astarion - I tended to kill him immediatelly after he deceived me and tried to backstab me. Having him in my party made my opinion go from bad to worse. Cheating, lying sadist. Chaotic Evil.
Gale - my opinion of the arrogant academic actually improved the longer I had him in the party, Neutral Good, I'm surprised to say.
Karlach - a young criminal made into a slave soldier, mental age - 15. Chaotic Neutral
Lae'zel - insuferable racist bitch, no change. Lawful Evil
Shadowheart - whining voice does her no favours. A psycho, two peas to a pod with batnose. No change. Neutral Evil
Wyll - pass. Boring. The last-gasp rewrite leaves holes the size of Bahamut or Tiamat in his story

Shadowheart : Variant of the old changeling folklore story. kidnapped as a child, raised in evil company, returning to her origins she becomes her old self again. A classic story. Love her.

Astarion : A corrupt official in Baldur's Gate's administration. Gets corrupted physically and becomes undead, is tortured during a century, and suddenly finds freedom again. Seems normal that he's a bit cynical after all that. Don't like him, but we can get along because we must.

Gale : Slept with a Goddess and wanted more. Got really screwed. He deserved it. Now he's ashamed to tell us, but he wants us to help him with a supernatural problem nevertheless, because he 's going to be of soooo much use to us afterwards. What a jerk.

Wyll : The blade of the frontiers. Doesn't want to talk about his problems and history until he needs our help. What a jerk.

Karlach : Originally a kind of mafia bandit, but she got a really shitty deal. Now she has no future left for her, but she lives each day as a new day and can give the team a veritable laugh and motivation. Love her.

Minthara : She's the bestest. Just follow her lead and love her, no questions asked.

Jaheira : A long history of saving people sems to have given her a cynical twist also. Despite all that she's okay. We 're having our daily cup of tea together to exchange gossip and make plans to defeat the absolute.

Minsc : Ask Boo what it thinks.

Halsin : We saved you. Now be quiet.

I appreciate when the characters have shortcomings and there are inconsistencies which portray how they struggle with their identiy and self image.

When Wyll is caught in his own deception, Gale struggles with his ambition and belief that he would make a better God, Minthara grovels in front of Ketheric, Karlach handwaves the ethical ramifications of soul coins, Halsin doubts his abilities and work as a leader. Those are the moments when the companions become most human to me. I cannot judge them for having the same struggles with who we want to be and who we really are as the rest of us.

I appreciate Wyll and Gale because they are introspective and we can share those struggles with them very earnestly. They are not honest with themselves or you, but you get to join them on their journey and arc to getting there. I like that it's not entirely about how something external has deceived, wronged or brainwashed them, but also an internal self-deception that they carry. The boat scene with romanced Gale and stargazing scene are my two top favourite personal scenes in the game.

That's so nice to read. I always thought, I was alone in those two being my favourite scenes.

The boat scene also plain simply leaves me in awe. I once spent and evening going through different variations of it, from the righteous "you shall not desire such things" route, to edging him on, to letting him sweep you off your feet with his plan, to telling him that you are very fond of the man and don't need him to be anything else. Each gives you the impression of deciding your future together with Gale. I also love that if you talk him out of the Crown and have shaken up his self-perception, he is not ok. He is so much not ok, that right at the brain stem, he might make that last ditch effort to do one big, grand gesture instead of having to live with himself. Only after the brain fight and in the time between the end of the game and the epilogue, does he come to terms with his situation.

I also get the impression that there are character flaws which are considered cool, so it's ok if they go unchallenged as long as the character's backstory is tragic enough. (BBG Astarion is a prime example for that.) While there are other flaws that are decidedly uncool, so they are held against the character even if they are fully acknowledged by the story and get resolved through the plot. Gale's need to please and impress, as well as his mix of desiring power while at the same time being scared of causing harm with it, are examples of this. All get resolved over time and you can see him gradually become less tense more at ease with chaos - even going so far as to joke about his bomb. (You could probably make a video about Gale's character development told through scenes about booze and socialising.)

With Wyll it's all a bit more buried, which is a shame. I like the party conversation with him if you kill Karlach and he has come to realise that he can never be the hero he wants to be as long as he is bound to Mizora.

I'm not necessarily sure thats a fair assumption. I think to be a bit more understanding, it's important to remember some issues will just speak more to certain people! And certainly personality traits will just be more off putting to certain people.

Everyone is different in their perspectives and priorities! Karlach is a really prime example. Can't speak much on Gale, as I have my own personal reasons for finding him uncomfortable. But a player who values maybe a more stark view of reality, and tough pragmatism, may be put off by someone such as Karlach who enforces (what I feel) is a very naive outlook, in a way that feels very immature.

I wouldn't say that has anything to do with "what's cool" by any means! I think it's valid to just find some things off putting.


Oh, this is well said. This is the perspective I can ultimately come to with the characters I dislike. Even if, from a roleplay perspective, I wouldn't bring it into the game, I as player can still sit back and enjoy the characters through filters like this. I think it's interesting how it can tie in so well with the concept the tadpoles bring, of the greatest monster of the game being inside everyone's own mind.

Would you be ok with it if I turned "cool" - which is admittedly slightly flippant - into "socially more acceptable" ?

With Karlach it is less her view on life (and what I think is deliberate self-deception in some points) that bothers me, but that it cannot be questioned. I think the only time you can call her out for something is when she complains about having to save Mizora's asset in order to save Wyll from eternal damnation. Otherwise she is allowed to the luxury not having to deal with a lot of things. In addition with how even the more cynical party members are only ever full of admiration or at least respect for her, I am left with the impression that this was mostly done to make her end more tragic but it unfortunately takes away a lot of the potential of the character too.

But that's just me, I generally prefer inner demons over the quick and easy solution to hit a bad guy and be done with it.

A reminder:


It’s fine to digress briefly to explore an interesting side point or opinion, as long as it’s all good natured and everyone is having fun, but please be careful not to take over the thread!

Honestly, no! It's not the term used, but the supposition on *why* a player may or may not like a certain character in such a monolithic fashion. I think that sort of over simplifies how complex people (and the topic) are. Also preference vs analysis! We could discuss all day the finer tunings of a character, and *why* they act a certain way, but, it's not going to suddenly make me enjoy the behavior, or want to engage with it. (Sorry Shadowheart lol. Though I did actually find her a bit more sympathetic as the game progressed, for a whole digression of reasons).


Yeah, I would find it much more interesting if we had the inability to ever call her on it. Otherwise it comes across as...not a self-insert, but like a self inserted ideal. Which, inevitably not everyone will agree she is. But it's going to break the fourth wall for me when I sense it. I think it's interesting you see her self-deception as intentional. I'd ask you why, but not sure if we're being told to stop the conversation here? (Sorry mods for the digression)

Yes please! No issue with the discussion in and of itself, and it would be fine in another thread, but it’s threatening to take over and derail this one.

Ha, guilty, I guess. I find that analysing a character adds to my enjoyment of them as characters even though I might still not like them as people. I hope this makes sense in its brevity and does not digress too much. I am equally sorry for derailing a bit, Red Queen.


It's also what makes me a little apprehensive to try her Origin because from clips I have seen, it slides even more deeply into this idealised self insert territory. I don't like it if my character is singled out as the hero for things which have been group efforts, and I equally don't enjoy being fawned over by my companions too much. I guess the line between caring for the PC and fawning over them is a fine one.

Talking about the companions as Origins (I hope it is alright and not too much of a derailment to talk of the companions when playing as them) I was surprised how much Wyll and Astarion's relationship changes /can change depending on if they are both companions or if Astarion is Avatar. For Avatar-Astarion, Wyll doesn't seem to be bothered by the whole vampire situation, so I wasn't prepared for all the jabs against Astarion when they are both companions. That really took me by surprise. Otoh, I find Wyll's indecisiveness during his quest much more bearable as Avatar-Astarion because you can play the "I used to be in law" card and basically become Wyll's lawyer when dealing with Mizora.

By contrast, I enjoy Gale's origin a lot because the other companions aren't necessarily much nicer to you, even if they are a bit more sympathetic. You just can't feel very heroic when your cat, the space warrior and the resident vampire all boss you around. Talking about the latter, I do find him much more enjoyable in Gale's Origin too because he seems to have a bit more agency in it. He basically becomes the devil on your shoulder who advertises free will (that one is bugged atm, unfortunately), power, and taking over the cult as an alternative to death and redemption. Which is of course very sinister but also makes for such a good story. By contrast with my Avatar-Shadowheart Astarion's attempts to power-grab feel a lot more random.

@Anska, I feel this is now more than just derailing a bit, and certainly would be if anyone replied to your points rather than getting back onto topic.

As I said, I’m happy for any constructive, friendly discussion within rules to happen in an appropriate thread, but am firmly calling time on this digression now. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or objections.

Yeah, good characterization of the character. And I really liked her at first - from the first encounter, when you see the nasty Inquisitor-like characters and already suspect you're going to side with whoever they're after, and how Karlach ends up blowing everything away with her fiery temperament - I thought she'd be one of the best companions at first, which is why I find her character the most disappointing. And I have to take her into the group anyway, simply because no character of mine would ever side with the likes of those who prey on her. Her reaction to Astarion's quest, for example, is subjectively seen as some kind of meltdown. In general, the “good” companions in BG3 - leave a rather unpleasant impression, especially if you remember the spirit of companionship in Pathfinder games (if you make a comparison between Seelah and Amiri and Karlach, or between Sosiel and Wyll). Or the realism of BG2, when yes, the companions could hate each other and how, there were incompatible companions, but no one was forcibly tied to anyone with a prism, and the player's agency was complete. The player could take any side, and the companions behaved realistically, reacting to your words and actions, not toadying, but treating you according to their values and morality. The only plus in this situation is the possibility of an unusual but curious roleplay of a character who, starting out “good” (CG) gradually changes her attitude to the world, becoming CN or NE, and in this case the characters of the companions fit perfectly. But in a “conventionally evil” walkthrough (I never do either “really good” or “totally evil” walkthroughs), when Tav/DU is already starting out as a “knowing life” NE, but not a manic lunatic who would crush a squirrel or rip Gale's arm off the first time they meet, so the whole ‘good’ pack is still going, the perception of “good” companions is consistently held to a not-so-very-high standard.


Oh yes, I was incredibly humored by that joke of his when I heard it! Maybe there's also a difference in perception between LI and the others, and about jokes too - in my perception Astarion said the joke about “an excellent shield” from Halsin to me personally, to his beloved, it's like between us - when a couple discusses people they know or jokes about them among themselves, it's one thing, but probably if a companion, for whom I'm the leader of the group and not his girlfriend, made such a joke, I'd take such a “revelation” as something endearingly dorky too!

But, even putting personal biases aside, those companions who are not the bearers of some “morality” turned out to be much more attractive and interesting. But I don't really like the idea of separating companions for certain “good” and ‘evil’ playthroughs, as well as the apparent piety towards the “good” ones. For example, when I didn't side with Minthara in the first playthrough and left her dead, then later, after “getting to know” Halsin better and just reading about Minthara, I felt cheated - such “obstacles” to taking a more interesting companion into the group don't seem to me to be justified in any way. Oh, and the “knockout method” seems like a very lazy way out to me - either the metagame or you have to leave not only her but everyone else knocked out. This is despite the fact that we spare the “good” Minsc from Absolute's influence with a prism in the cutscene. Before meeting Minthara, I already know what the prism is capable of. The options for killing good companions are manic and completely out of place for the logical and rational evil Tav. Karlach and Wyll are “oblivious” to the ceremorphosis threatening them and only leave the group if you cut out the entire grove, there is no opportunity to fight with them where it would be warranted by the plot or your choices.

With apologies, I am going to temporarily lock this thread. I fully expect to reopen it soon, but given my repeated attempts at moderation in it seem to have been ineffective I want to take advice from the Larian Community Management team.

Hey all! After discussing with our moderation team I am reopening this thread, the conversation here is very interesting and all good as long as it's kept on topic and everyone remains civil towards each other 😛
And please just be mindful of our moderation team's notes and requests to keep the thread in line!

Before reopening, due to the topic of the thread I just wanted to remind everyone that this rule is still in place:
- For the time being, the Moderator Team have been asked to close any new discussions or debates involving Astarion's character ending (Ascension vs. Non-Ascension). This measure will be re-evaluated at a later date. Discussing the character and the general narratives surrounding him is acceptable as long as the discussion remains civil and respectful of all forum members.

Thank you all and please proceed!

In my evil/dark urge playthrough, I reached Moonrise Towers last night. Loved the opening to act 2 in general, but Minthara... Well, there's a change in my impressions! First game I don't think I even spoke to her, just put a smokepowder barrel beside her desk because I just saw her as any other enemy. But now... I can already see why she has so many fans. I love that there's so much extra depth there for a second playthrough, rather than having every path open in my first game. This was easily the best scene so far in my evil game, partly because I hadn't seen it before

Minthara - Is like the rainbow coated in color black, you'll assume she's all dark and black but once you start scraping it off, my first impression changed to see her in more complex layers that of a rainbow, wanted to explain this in the most poetic way possible.

So, would you say that she's...a rainbow in the daaaaark?



I had to, sorry XD

For me, the core 4 haven't changed; Astarion, Lae'zel, Gale and Shadowheart are likable and compelling companions in their own ways. I omit one or two on a run only for keeping their inclusion fresh.

I realized in original play-through Karlach and Wyll were tier 2 companions, in terms of story and likability, and this hasn't changed. I had high hopes for Karlach on release, but she didn't match expectations of what I thought a Blood war veteran would be like. I might recruit 1 of these just for interactions.

(I consider Wither's followers kind of more interesting in that they include uncommon races.)

Jaheira and Minthara are wonderful non-origin companions. They're really well grounded in the setting and enhance a play through. Originally I was inundated with companion choices, so didn't appreciate them as much. Prefer to recruit either/or so that one can get plenty of party time.

Minsc and Halsin were and remain tier 2 non-origin companions. Minsc comes far too late and I'm not really into comedic companions, though I could see myself including him in a sillier run. I found Halsin not compelling as a companion compared to his npc roles in the story in Acts 1&2.

Overall, Jaheira, Minthara and Astarion have improved the most favourably since original play through. And to be clear, six well liked companions is plenty enough for me.

Yeah, I rarely took Minsc out and didn't feel like I was missing much. I'd talk to him in the Elfsong most evenings and hear any updates to his thoughts, and I got all of his background, and that was fun; but rarely actually had him in the party. Except that I specced him as a gloomstalker ranger, and used him when I wanted a max stealth party.

Minsc has some really funny banter when you have him in your party. Well, if he align with you humour prefrences that is, I know many don't find him funny.

Well, my Tav felt dumber after every conversation with Minsc, but I must admit that he brought some much needed comedic relief into the last sessions. Some of his lines are such WTF-material that even Astarion is nonplussed by them sometimes. During Act 3, I sometimes felt like a showrunner making sure every character gets enough screen time.

One of my most memorable moments was overhearing Minsc telling Astarion how he thought fishies was the perfect dish for him.

Thanks, Minsc! The keyboard really looked thirsty for some coffee.

Gale: Thought he was a decently nice guy at first (I give a lot of credit for this to his voice actor), with some inconsistencies thrown in. But my views on him completely changed for the worse during Act 3 when playing as Dark Urge. I started to warm to him some more again though after seeing banter between him and Minthara.

Shadowheart: Immediately jealous of her voice. Wish Larian would have given an option for a similar high-pitched voice for Tav, but for some reason that was forbidden and only reserved for Shart.
Not much changed regarding my initial views on her. At first I thought she was made to be just a pretty face type character who is a little aloof, but have noticed a tiny bit more nuance to her character since then.

I didn't know a thing about D&D or Baldur's Gate, so I had no idea what to expect with all of the different subclasses or fictional races.

I rarely team up with Wyll, Karlach and Gale. I feel like Wyll's story has potential but it's almost as if the writers gave up on him. Or that his story seems overshadowed by characters like Karlach and Mizora. At least Mizora seems interesting and she makes sense since Wyll's a warlock, but I forget about her most of the time and get her name mixed up with Minthara's. Karlach annoys me. She's like some marvel or dreamworks character, like she's gonna break the fourth wall and wink at the audience. Always skipping and hopping around in camp. Gale is a mess. Just a mess. It's funny because the warlock and wizard classes caught my attention at the start, so I was actually interested to learn more about Wyll and Gale.

Astarion's introduction was terrible. Poorly written. He's really funny and I like his snarky comments (find myself agreeing with him on most things, like his comments about the druids hospitality). I understand why a lot of people find his character overrated. I wish the game allowed more options for your character to interact with the companions and befriend them without instantly focusing on romance. I often wonder how a platonic relationship would've worked out between Astarion and Tav. I feel like BG3 lacks a lot of options for the player while still being overly detailed, but I'll avoid turning this into a rant about the entire game. Anyway, Astarion's character design reminds me of Marshal from Animal Crossing or Bede from Pokemon.

Shadowheart annoys me. She's just back and forth. What's funny is that I somehow got Shadowheart to open up to me about her purple prose backstory around the same time I had thoughts on sacrificing her to BOOOAL. Jenevelle Hallowleaf... father was a werewolf... I mean they added everything into her story. Tries too hard to be mysterious. Shar worshipper but no one ever gets the chance to point that out, which I find weird. Your character might get the chance to notice other deities, and Gale claims to know everything so he should probably notice that Shadowheart is dressed as Shar's mascot. I care so little about the artifact.

I often joke that Lae'zel is a personal trainer, life coach and executioner all in one. She's crazy but she stands on business I guess. So I respect that. Her ears remind me of a cactus. I care so little about the creche.

Halsin is the worst. Could've turned into a rat or a bumblebee to escape the prison the goblins had him locked in. I hate Halsin. Minthara could've just taken a short walk around the corner and would've found the grove. She's boring.

Jaheira is cool. We have Jaheira, why do we need Halsin? Sometimes Halsin 'accidentally' dies during the fight at the goblin camp. Strange how that keeps happening in my game...

That may just be what happened due to the game having to be wrapped up. I thought his story was solid and relatable until the end, and then he got a Game of Thrones-finale with so many question marks. For instance, the Avernus layer of the Nine Hells/Baator that I know from older D&D books would kill an unprotected low-level character within rounds. That's why IG, my Tav considered him off his rocker after losing his powers. To me it was a bit of a bummer so close to the end, as the whole campaign arc otherwise fit even older editions of the Forgotten Realms settings neatly.

Astarion. My favourite and always in my party. Never had any reason to change my opinion on him.

Lae'zel. One of my favourite characters. Originally I suppose I found her a bit too aggressive especially towards the tieflings in Act 1 but these days I find her interrogation scene funny as hell. . My opinion of her improved half way through my first playthrough and I haven't had any reason to change my mind since.

Shadowheart. I like her well enough and she's often the 3rd companion in my group. Originally I liked her more than I do now although that's not to say I dislike her as I don't.
Jaheira. I like her very much and always have,
Gale. My opinion of him is improving slowly with later playthroughs.

Halsin. My opinion hasn't changed.

Wyll. I think my opinion of him went down since first playthrough.

Karlach. First playthrough I enjoyed her more than I do now.

Minsc. Well he's in my camp. Never too sure what to do with him as by the time he appears in the game I already have my party preferences all sorted out and don't really want to mess about unnecessarily. I quite enjoy his 'off the wall' takes on things though. Not changed my mind on him at all. Except I think its a shame he's so late to the party.

Minthara. I haven't really changed my mind on her.

I see this topic is active just as I'm coming to the end of my second (evil/durge) playthrough, and I've just completed two rather different character stories.

Shadowheart


Astarion

I play since the beginning of early access and what I find sad is, that some characters are mellowed down so much.
Shadowheart now basically pours her heart out after a few nights and you are her instant bestie. And her cottage core tradwife ( exaggerating here, but you know, what I mean) ending when romanced is just too much for me. I would have preferred her more complex personality from early access.
Astarion: same as with Shadowheart. I don't look for rising his approval, I play the way, I picture my characters and I usually have the bite scene in the third night and I hate it. In EA he was more careful and paranoid for a longer time. Granted, he doesn't do a 180 like Shadow, but I still think, his reveal comes too soon. Yes, we all can see, he is a vampire, I still loved to find the clues and him trying to come up with excuses ( for the bloodless boar for example). Same with Shadowhearts reveal, that she is Sharran: both are big things. Most people in the Forgotten Realms would not trust a vampire or a Sharran, so I would love to see both reveals a bit more of a big deal. Though at least, Astarion stays somewhat paranoid up to the drow encounter in Moonrise, which is a nice touch.
Gale: in EA it was possible, that he makes a pact behind our backs with Raphael, if we don't give him magical items. That was kind of cool and it gives a sense of dread and more motivation to maybe break into the House of Hope to destroy the contract, Gale might have made on our behalf. He is ambitious and takes care, to not kill others, plus he is not opposed to dealing with Raphael, so for me, it is sad, this story element is gone.
Karlach was more aggressive towards the group before, though like Wyll, her character had a total rewrite, so that wouldn't make sense with full game Karlach.
Wyll was more hateful towards goblins and had a more complicated relationship with Mizora, though I think apart from the fact, that he has not enough reactivity compared to other companions, I prefer the rewrite in this case. He was always one of the more good aligned characters.
Lae'zel luckily is her bitchy self, she has the slow development, that I wished from Shadowheart. It just makes sense that she takes a while to warm up towards us and Faerun.
Halsin in EA was supposed to be the one, who killed Isobel and therefore felt responsible for the Shadowcurse. I really wish, they had kept that storyline, it would have made his character so much more interesting.

That fits with Astarion in my first playthrough. If he was able to feed off animals, it was stupid to try to feed off the party leader who had just kicked him out of the party. I can't remember about my second game, but maybe I wasn't resting as much and so missed a few night time cutscenes due to conflicts. I certainly didn't try to raise his approval, but my second character is seeking power and doesn't care about hurting people unless he can get something out of them, which chimes with Astarion's attitude.

As a player I was wrong about Shar's goals in my first game - I knew she was evil, but not "end the world" evil. Maybe I wouldn't have kept Shadowheart in the party if I knew.


Ooh, I like that idea. Presumably that's instead of him leaving or exploding? I've still not played with Gale, because I kicked him out of the party in the first game because my character couldn't know that he wouldn't explode at any moment; he left in the second game because we were too evil.

Lae'Zel is my favorite. She is always true to herself and says what she thinks. Her arc when she accepts that Vlaakith is lying is epic.

Shadowheart never acts like a cleric of Shar. There is no evil thoughts, no manipulation, nothing but waifu girlfriend. Back in BG1 & 2 Viconia was evil, she did evil things and said evil things. If you spent the considerable time it took to show her a better way and romanced her you got rewarded with a nuetral good transformation that was hugely satisfying, especially with a Paladin who rejects Bhaal. There is nothing like that with Shadowheart.

Karlach is another poor character development, just a bubbly girl. You never get the sense of a hellspawn reaver.

Astarian is great, he's not a hero and gets upset when we act like one. His arc is tragic with how badly Cazador treated him.

Halsin is a waste, just a pervy old guy who only serves the purpose to stop the shadowcurse and to be kidnapped by Orin.

Minthara is great with the voice acting, went from being evil since she was controlled by the Absolute to being evil because she is a Drow who followed Llolith. I've not played her entire arc yet as she is difficult to recruit. They should have had a cutscene where when she gets defeated in Act 1 she gets summoned/teleported away by Ketheric for judgement. Then everyone would have the scene in the throne room to settle her fate instead of needing to either throw a massive amount of quests and venders in a pile and burn them by siding with the Goblins or doing some weird meta knowledge no-lethal KO just to have her survive to Act 2.

Wyll is annoying in his one dimensional eagle scout routine. You never get the sense of a power craving Warlock. He just doesn't work for me as a character.

Gale works well as an ambitious wizard where curiousity did kill the cat, or almost. He makes sense and his actions fit his personality.

I know it's fine for other people to have differing opinions and I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions on characters, but I do want to help provide some context behind some characters:


The major difference is that Shadowheart is not inherently evil.



That's the thing though. She ISN'T a hellspawn reaver. She literally is just a happy-go-lucky city girl who was sold into slavery to a literal Archdevil. She is not evil, she is not bloodthirsty (Other than being really angry towards her betrayer and her slaver), she is just a normal girl put through the wringer.


Wyll is not "Power Craving" at all. His motivations for making the pact was simply a short term "I want to be able to protect these people" and the rest of his pact life was dealing with the consequences. He never craved power, he just naively took the opportunity to be able to save people (Not thinking through what it actually entails to make a pact with a literal devil)

He actively does not want to be a Warlock. Which is why he's eager to get out of his pact (As he mentions in the conversation post-Mizora visit in Act 1 if he gets punished for not killing Karlach).

To me, the three guys (and Minthara) basically have the same conflict, they think they need power to compensate for something. Gale thinks he needs power to be worthy, Astarion to be safe, and Wyll to be able to protect others. That he on the one hand rejects Mizora and the things he has to do for her but on the other hand thinks he needs the infernal help to get things done, is a compelling conflict - same as Gale's is - just that it isn't very developed in his case and gets watered down even more if you don't kill Karlach.

And yes, how hard Shadowheart's story drives home the nature over nurture argument is a bit annoying too.

To be fair, a large part of Gale's thing was that he wanted power for power's sake.

His entire driving force is he wants to experience more of the weave. This eventually lead into him wanting to be more worthy, but the core is he just wants power.


This isn't the case actually.

Wyll DOESN'T think he needs the infernal help to get things done. He needed it at the specific time he made the pact, but after that it wasn't necessary. Was it beneficial? Yes, the power allowed him to do more things, but was it necessary? No, he was a capable fighter before the pact (Since as a Noble he was tutored in martial combat).

Which is why this conflict isn't developed. Right in Act 1 he outright states he wants out of the pact, which wouldn't be the case if he thought he needed it.

We'll have to agree to disagree with regard to both.

Gale saw all the Weave had to offer and felt he wasn't good enough. Imposter syndrome next to a god. Him wanting to be a better wizard (have more magical power) is never the issue, the way he tries to get there quickly is. He is too confident in his own abilities and it tends to backfire when he doesn't prudently prepare things. High Int, low Wis is a running theme in all his stories, and it's why he ended up with the Orb too. I also feel that equating experiencing the Weave or Gale's eternal curiosity with "just wanting power" and turning this into his driving motivation on top of it, is an oversimplification.

As for Wyll, when he is torn between saving himself and his father in act 3, the basis of his dilemma is that he believes that he needs Mizora to save his father. When you tell him that you'll find and rescue Ulder without Mizora's help, he thinks it's futil. Looking back to his original dilemma, he could have also opted for alarming the city guard instead of taking the pact and trying to take on the cultists on his own. But being the conartist that she is, Mizora made him belief her help was crucial both times.

But, like I said, we can agree to disagree.

Except none of that is true.

He didn't see all the Weave had to offer. That's literally the point. Mystra was keeping part of the weave away from mortals due to it being hilariously unsafe for them.

Gale wanted to access this part of the weave. This is the reason for him and Mystra falling out and why Gale went to go and get the Orb to return it to her as a gift to make nice again.

He outright states this in Act 1 upon him revealing the Orb to you (Rather, as a preamble to revealing the Orb) either after giving him 3 magic items or by bringing Elminster to see him.


Except this isn't about needing the "Power" from the pact. This is about Mizora giving him an offer; whereby Wyll gets locked into an eternal pact with Mizora in exchange for the information about his father's location.

Wyll is perfectly capable without the pact. As I mentioned, he states not wanting to be in the pact in Act 1 and is annoyed at the pact still persisting for some time after it is agreed for it to end in Act 2.

In fact, this is literally the reason why the Act 3 "Dilemma" is even a dilemma. He doesn't WANT to be in a pact with Mizora because he doesn't NEED to be.

I don't think this is the thread for this but, Gale asked and pleaded with Mystra to show him more (like, let him read the books and not just show him that there's a library) and she told him to be content. He got the book to bribe her, the orb ate Gale's magic and she cut their connection before it could feed from the Weave. The radio silence was because he had gotten dangerous to her. She explains this in act 3, although I am not sure if she goes into this detail in every version. I don't know of dialogue in which they mention having a falling out previous to this.

The timeline isn't the motivation though, which I'd say is that he feels insignificant as a mere human wizard. This sense that he feels like his life can only have meaning if he does something grand - either explode and save the day or get godlike powers - is present in basically all of his conversations that deal with the orb. So no, I wouldn't say that he just wants power like a cartoon villain, he feels he needs power with a capital p - be it that of a god or an explosion - for him to be a meaningful influence on the world, ordinary brilliant wizard doesn't cut it. And it's the same feeling of insignificance that made him ask for Mystra's secrets in the first place. I mean, even his bliss isn't to be powerful, it's to be wise, which translates into his story as that he needs to learn about the true nature of his orb in order to have any kind of future. I hope that explains my point of view well enough and we can let it rest now. Not that I wouldn't like to discuss this further. Gale's relationship with power is super interesting. I just really don't want to be the culprit of thread-derailment again.

As for Wyll, I might have to do his act 1 dialogue again, but I don't recall that he states that he wants to be free of Mizora. The player suggests it to him and he agrees, in act 2 it's again the player who starts to initiate breaking his pact. To me he also sounds mostly annoyed that she's toying with him again at this point. During the party conversation when Karlach is dead he brings it up himself that he cannot be the hero he wants to be as long as he is under Mizora's control. He sounded like he didn't have a big problem with his pact before because until this point he didn't think that Mizora could use him against innocents - at least not big enough to actively try to get himself out of it. Her treating him badly is tolerable for a good cause, her sullying his integrity is where he apparently draws the line. I also don't think that he especially wants to be a warlock. It's more that whenever Mizora pushes some urgency on him, his convictions falter.

Yes, you are right about Gale. We didn't see the full consequences, but I think, I remember, that you can send him away, similar to Astarion after bite night.

I agree about the bite night being really stupid. In EA you had a chance in one of his cover up scenes ( I think, it was the boar) to catch him lying and address that. He then confessed to be a vampire spawn. And I think, if you make it soon enough to the Underdark, he still confesses it without the bite night. I haven't managed that yet, but I really want to try it.
The bite night is so risky from his perspective, that I don't get it from a logical POV. I would have preferred, that he just told my character after we find enough clues and his approval was raised a bit. Maybe choosing the kind option in first dialogue ( 'I sleep better for that', when he offers to stay awake and guard the camp for example or telling him about the tadpole and offer a spot in your party, even if he attacked you). If you want the bite scene playing out, you could offer afterwards. It would be more natural.

Shadowheart is complicated for me: she worships the most evil goddess in the realm ( and there is not much worse, than just end everything to have a great big nothing), she would be killed on sight by most people in the realm for that and she knows that and is a) not stupid and b) on an undercover mission and still is decked from head to toe in Shar symbols. I mean ... that makes zero sense. Then she is as bad at hiding her goddess as a 3 year old is in hiding, that they raided the cookie jar. She makes so many comments that point in less than wholesome directions, that in all reality she is not at all trustworthy. Combine that with her personality being mellowed down so much and I lost a lot of interest in her. We already have Karlach and Wyll as the friendly and outgoing ones and it fits both of their characters well, I would have preferred to have the Sharran in the group more on the guard.

I might one day play as Shadowheart to give her back a bit of her edgyness. It's funny, coming from me, because I normally don't like that trope: I totally don't care about Morrigan in DA or Yennefer in Witcher, but I think it was well done with Shadowheart in early access. I even liked her look more in EA. I still use that face for my half elf bard, that I made for a DnD campaign. It was attractive, but had more character imo.

I have a recollection of Wyll answering Tav that "getting out of the pact" has been on his mind every day, but he could not think of any way to do so.

Thanks Ido, I'll be at the spot again soon and pay attention to it. Wyll might be the character with whose dialogue I have toyed the least too because many of his dialogue options are so rude.


I feel it makes sense in his origin, where he has a nightmare about Cazador and his rules. Upon waking Astarion realises that he is no longer bound by them and biting a companion ( or deciding against it) is framed as proofing his autonomy to himself. It does not translate completely to him as a companion but maybe this background makes it a little more relatable.

That makes more sense, but still, he could just go after a goblin

Probably would have been wiser, but I also think that the game does not always try to be completely realistic or serious and leans into tropes at times. Depending on your taste this might work or be completely off-putting. For example the way the act 1 Durge scene switched from horror to silly comedy didn't work for me at all and felt very disappointing, others like it. Bite-night also feels pretty tropey to me in the way it leans into the whole sexy vampire bite fantasy, it's never really presented as a dangerous situation. For me it works when Astarion gets a mouth full of bile and is either treated like a misbehaving cat or like an annoying roommate who becomes the victim of his own prank. It's funny and establishes a dynamic between both characters. Of course turning Astarion's hunger into a bit of a joke or a sexy thing undermines how you are later on supposed to be very scared of vampires and both his hunger as well as the vampire simping become serious topics. Astarion being part tragic and part comedic relief is a bit hit or miss - in my opinion.

No comments on Shadowheart - but being bitchy in her origin is very enjoyable. Do recommend.

I've always been bothered by the logic of that scene. It's like the grove makes everyone dumb just for the scne, you know? Lae'zel is dumb for interrogating and threatening a dude out in the open while surrounded by two groups that are on edge and primed for violence after the goblin attack. The druids would be pissy because of some random space frog lady stirring up trouble in their grove. The Elturel survivors have been through enough together and experienced enough prejudice that a threat to one of them should be a threat to all of them. But no, Lae'zel stirs up trouble in hostile territory, the druids are 'nunna my business' and the other Elturel survivors lose solidarity. Maybe Zorru just peed in Octa's gruel or something. (Or it's just how the game is written, but I like my version better.)


Something tells me you're not alone in changing Shadowheart's class.

When I did a Shadowheart avatar campaign, I tolerated trickery cleric until reaching the major turning point in her story, and decided to make her an open hand monk instead to have her character growth be represented in gameplay. No more goddesses messing with her life, she gets to put her fate into her own hands.

Of course I COULD just learn to use trickery cleric, but where's the fun in that XD


Some additional Astarion spoilers are below, based on Trantion's takes.




Yeah, that sounds more my speed. I do think that would cause more people to miss out based on the reception Lae'zel and Minthara have, but that would definitely be more my speed.



Oooo, I like that. Tons better than "oh my dad went pyscho cause I died for some reason, now don't ever think about that again."



New headcanon: ranger Wyll founds the Sword Coast Eagle Scouts after escaping his pact. (Durge helps Karlach in Avernus, in my headcanon.)

This is the exchange that I was referring to.