Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion (Spoiler) (Suggestion) All Companions Should Have This Act III Option

This somewhat clickbait-y title was the only way for me to avoid spoilers in the title.
I’m talking about the Act III option / necessity of one character becoming an illithid, if you decide to free Orpheus.

The game limits you, somewhat infamously, to either a) becoming illithid yourself, b) Orpheus transforming, c) Karlach transforming.
I’ve been wondering why the latter option doesn’t exist for all companions? After all, it would have been fairly simple to craft a motivation for each of them to do so:


- Karlach: motivation given in the game

- Lae’zel: The lack of this option surprises me the most. Sure, becoming illithid is the last thing she in particular would ever want. But if she is truly as devoted to Orpheus now as the claims to be — as devoted as she used to be to Vlaakith — then why wouldn’t she offer of rather becoming illithid herself than allowing Orpheus to become illithid, after just having been freed? While personally, I find it narratively more satisfying for Orpheus to sacrifice himself, and Lae’zel taking his place as leader of the rebellion — as she is the one githyanki character we’ve come to care about the entire game, whereas we only really get to know Orpheus the moment we are faced with this choice. Still, Lae’zel should at least be considering it.

- Wyll: Only makes sense if he renewed his pact with Mizora to save his father, but: Since it’s stated repeatedly that illithids don’t have souls, turning illithid would be a way for him to save his soul from his pact with Mizora again, wouldn’t it?

- Astarion: This in turn only makes sense if he didn’t become a vampire lord. It would require an “Astarion enjoying the sunrise” scene, similar to the one that does exist for Lae’zel. He could continue to walk on the surface, stay with his new-found friends, perhaps join the Society of Brilliance like Omeluum. After all, transforming to be safe from sunlight once again is little use if he still had to hide away in the shadows, simply because the citizens of Baldur’s Gate would still consider him a monster, just a different kind now. But as the Emperor states, he’d be free to use magic to take on other appearances.
In short: If turning illithid frees him from his vampire curse — after all, he’s been fairly attached to the tadpole over the course of the story, compared to everyone else — then Astarion might ultimately prefer being an illithid over being a vampire spawn. As long as you tell him he still looks pretty with tentacles, of course.

- Gale: In the game, he brings up the orb as an alternative, but Orpheus isn’t content with relying on that, and therefore forces somebody else to become illithid anyway (even if it’s himself). As far as I recall, it’s stated previously that Gale undergoing ceremorphosis would automatically activate the orb… so to have a motivation for becoming illithid himself, Gale would need to discover some way in which transforming doesn’t actually activate the orb, but instead, frees him from it. Gale could also come to see this as an act of redemption to Mystra, but one that he chose himself — rather than simply complying with her command by blowing himself up.

- Minthara: I’ve only recruited her now on my second playthrough, but from what I’ve gathered about her story thus far, she could propose turning illithid as a form of redemption, too — for all the crimes she committed while serving the Absolute. This of course would require her to accept responsibility for what she did back then — which, at least when you first recruit her, she does not.

- Minsc: He has a tadpole, too, and after having been dead already for several decades, being stuck inside a statue, he could seek to end his heroic career with a final bang. As long as you assure him you will take care of Boo after he’s gone.

- Shadowheart: I’ll admit, her turning illithid would make the least sense — and given that she leads the romance stats by a long shot, most players would probably never let her do so, either. But for her to offer it, again, she could see it as a form of penance towards her parents — whether they’re dead or still alive. In the former case, she would have to conclude that her parents sacrificing themselves so that she could live was ultimately about more than just her personal happiness — rather, so that she in turn could make a sacrifice for the city. In the latter case, with her parents still alive, it would be her penance for what she did to them while serving Shar — and she could try to make up for this by enabling them to live safely in the city from now on. Children sacrificing themselves for their parents rarely makes sense, for obvious evolutionary reasons. But one could still set up somewhat convincing circumstances for this option.


Finally, if you freed Orpheus by signing the pact with Raphael to get the Orphic Hammer, turning illithid yourself should free your soul from the pact, for lack of a soul, just like it should apply in Wyll’s case with his pact with Mizora, right?


For the remaining companions, turning illithid isn’t an option because they don’t have a tadpole: Neither Halsin, nor Jaheira, nor Alfira (if you’re using the “Alfira Joins the Party” Mod). I was honestly wondering how Orpheus gained access to the option of becoming illithid himself in the first place. Did the Emperor infect him?



EDIT: I just realised similar questions were raised in this recent thread: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=955362#Post955362
However, I think that thread was about Lae’zel’s lack of a ceremorphosis option, specifically — I wanted to go through the possible incentives for embracing ceremorphosis for all main characters.

You raise several good points, especially about Orpheus ha.

I've always headcanoned it that Karlach and Orpheus are uniquely equipped for the job in ways that the others aren't

It's a plotpoint that Karlach is so uniquely tough that she could withstand an unwilling demonic heart transplant(and presumably thrashing around violently the whole time). In scenes regarding transformations the narrator says things to the effect of muscles being replaced with synapses, so is it that large a leap in logic because she's so beefy, Karlach would have better control over herself as an illitid?

Orpheus was born with PLOT MAGIC that makes him immune to elder brain control, so he's a really, really good choice.

Admittedly, both of those ideas have flaws but that's my personal headcanon still.

I think all tadpoled companions should be able to step in here.
Lae'zels case was already discussed. She wants Orpheus to free her people? Then she can turn to a mindflayer herself . No way, I'll do that. While I sympathise with her situation, the githyanki people are not really my problem, I already solved enough.

But I think everyone of the companions could be motivated to do it. And being the most romanced I wouldn't take as an argument, since ultimately it comes down to player decision. But I never understood why my characters should sacrifice themselves to become a mindflayer. So in my case Orpheus will always be the one, who has to change.

I love the idea ...
But honestly i cant really imagine a scenario where Astarion would offer himself no matter what you two lived trough. O_o

Quite honestly even persuating the Elder Brain to just bugger off seems like easier task.

To be honest, I don't see the point of it. Orpheus' transformation is the optimal option for those who are sorry to make illithid Karlach. There is no need or motivation to become illithid yourself at all, it seems to me that this is made for those players who just want to roleplay a self-sacrificing hero themselves, well why not, great. So why torture the rest of the companions? Lae'zel may have agreed to it, but why let her down like that when you can decide her fate with a good outcome for her? I don't like the idea of some sort of “redemption” being imposed on the companions at all. Plus, pretty much every companion has moments in their storylines that could be improved upon than wasting resources on making them illithid.

Astarion is most unwilling to let the tadpole transform his body. When the player offers him an astral tadpole, he talks about how he felt when he was transformed into a vampire spawn.

“That was before I knew the cost. Before I knew it meant transforming into some grotesque beast. I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last. I - I don't want to turn into anything else. I can't do that again. I can't watch my body be taken over.” “It isn't about the pain... it's about being beholden to the tadpole's influence.” “Just don't ask me to sacrifice my body. It hasn't been mine for so long.” “What is there left to protect, if you lose your very body to the monster? I'm not going to submit to this. Don't ask me again.”

Astarion already has the most number of bad options for him in the story. And so it seems like all the cruelest things you can do to your companions have been given to Astarion. He's had enough. He's categorically lacking in good interactions. Larian, of course, is unlikely to make any changes to the companion storyline at all now, but still, it would be a pity to waste resources on making everyone illithid instead of improving their storylines in other, more important places for them.

So you have options?

I mean ... sometimes you make some choices, wich lead to some scenarios ...
Like when you be-headed Karlach in early game as a Githyanki, who would NEVER turn to Mind Flayer, but in time you find out that Vlaakith is a treacherous b**** and so you want to side with Orpheus ...

What are your options then?
Side with Mind Flayer and loose your rightful prince.
Let your rightful prince sacrifice themselves.
Or sacrifice yourself.

Neither of that options is what your character would do. :-/

And sure, those are consequences for your decision bcs you killed Karlach ... but even if she is alive but is chilling in your camp, you simply cant use her.
It feels odd (to me at least) that Larian allows only one companion to have this end ...

Thiking about it a little futher, in perfect world they would all react differently ...
Imagine that if you could as every companion ... but those who would be against it would get super high persuation/intimidation/deception check ... like 30, or even 40, but not 99 (xD) ... something only super-focused character could pass, still something a player could achieve.
But then, when you would fail ... and lets be honest, most people WOULD fail that check ... they would become hostile.
But then again, if we would knock them out, we would be able to turn them against their will.

I mean, for hells sake, we can be evil enough so we quite literally "drown the whole world in blood of our victims" ... lets not pretend that some of our characters would shy away from such option.

Well, it's not a new point from my end and has probably no chance of ever being in the game at this point, but a getting Omeluum to do the thing was what I'd hoped for, when controlling the Nether Stones failed. I played a Githyanki, so - while I still have that savegame - letting Orpheus make this sacrifice would have been out of character.

Omeluum should have been an option too, I agree. He already proofed, that he has a knack for the heroic, so having him there to destroy the Netherbrain would have been really nice.

First of all, i want to put a disclaimer that i dont really want to play a blame game ... its just a joke, okey?
(or is it? >:] )

This topic made me wonder ...

Is it possible that someone in Larian dont really like our buffed red one-horned waifu? :-/

Maybe use Wyll and you know that he

Maybe i would ...
If there was at least something even remotely interesting about him.

Dunno ... since his re-write he seem kinda dull. :-/

But that is not the point.

Suit yourself, he is one of my favourites.

Omeluum would be great as an option, other players in the thread have already written about it, I can only join in and agree.

However, in your version of the game - yes, I agree, your character is really trapped in a choice without a single good option. Each option is tragic and the choice is really hard to make.

I myself can say I was lucky enough to take Karlach with me in the first playthrough, although I was very disappointed and disenchanted with the character, she was good in combat and I took her with me on bosses. I really wanted to save Orpheus and ensure Lae'zel had a bright future. But, if she's sitting in the camp, then yeah, in a game with no spoilers you wouldn't guess she could do that. I think Larian had a reason to let exactly her have that ending - Karlach wants to stay on Faerûn very badly, at any cost, she's willing to die just to avoid going back to Averno, and will only live if someone is willing to go there with her. Her quest with the engine didn't get developed further for some reason, and without the option of becoming illithid with those Tavs who have their own personal lives and don't want to go Averno with her, she would only survive at all if Wyll becomes the Blade of Averno. After becoming a Blade of Frontiers, Wyll has no desire to help her. And this way she has another option for survival.


Yeah. Exactly that only “drown the whole world in blood of our victims”, but interesting evil roleplay was not brought in. So to have not “isolation” and a bunch of corpses along the way, but a separate full-fledged storyline, as it was in BG2. Even the evil DU ending was made so that I now have to give any of my evil characters some sort of motivation to reject Bhaal, just so I never end up with that. But, in general, you're right, maybe my evil character wouldn't mind playing such an “evil joke” with Wyll, manipulating the stupid ducal son with the ideas of “self-sacrifice” and “saving the world” to then laugh with Astarion at his tentacles, lamenting that his horns have disappeared (horns and tentacles together would be even more amusing). Or with Minsc - that might be even funnier! Yes, I'm already changing my previous point of view, having imagined a Minsc-illithid, I would definitely do it with him, terribly curious how a Minsc-illithid would behave...

Well, if we think about each character in relation to the difficulty of the check and the degree of their reluctance...

Lae'zel - will agree for the sake of Orpheus and for the sake of her people. The persuasion must be based on that.

Wуll - yes, you can persuade/deceive him, he's pretty stupid (Mizora will confirm this) and manipulatable, and generally a dependent character (the only one in the group who can't make his own decision in his own quest). You can use his “heroism”, I wouldn't make the persuasion check very difficult. Intimidation can be harder to deal with, deception and manipulation always work better with “stupid good” alignment.

Minthara can be persuaded, but not in a “form of redemption”. First of all, she had nothing to “redeem”, she was under the control of the Absolute and her life was already hard. Secondly, Minthara is intelligent, and she would never fall for such manipulation. She can be persuaded by the fact that by becoming an Illithid, she will gain immortality and power. In the finale, Minthara will make a grandmaster's gambit - she will subjugate Brain herself and become the Absolute, and it will be a separate “evil” finale with Minthara in the lead role and the collapse of all Tav/Du's hopes and plans. Although with the “redemption” persuasion could also work, but there should be a high passive Wisdom check - will Tav realize what Minthara is really up to? Same Wisdom check with Intimidation.

Astarion - yes, I realize that it is possible to pressure him into doing it after all. That won't work with Ascended Astarion though, Astarion is now able to stand up for himself. He may try to convince the player to choose another victim, arguing that with his new powers, he will be a more useful ally in the coming battle. If the player insists, no amount of persuasion/intimidation/deception will work in this case, Astarion has absolutely no intention of doing so. It would be illogical and unprofitable for him to fight the player, considering the strength of the whole group and the danger of the Elder Brain, he might turn into mist and leave, and won't participate in the battle (and won't come to the party in the epilogue, he might write a letter). Unascended Astarion may be forced and surrender eventually. Persuasion and deception is unlikely, intimidation just might work, Astarion must realize he has no other way to preserve his own life. Astarion will hate Tav very much after this. After becoming an Illithid and gaining power, Astarion will do the same thing as Minthara, become an Absolute himself and enslave all the other companions, including Tav. This kind of ending with Astarion and Minthara would happen when the player wanted a “good” ending (and it would be a gorgeous sudden plot twist), when the player themselves wants to take over the Brain - there would be a battle and confrontation similar to what happens in this case with the Emperor.

Gale is the big question with his sphere. I don't think it's even possible because of the sphere. And Gale has the option of self-sacrifice in the finale when he blows up the Brain and dies himself. You could consider that an alternative. Have you tried in a game as a Githyanki to persuade Gale to sacrifice himself and blow himself up in the finale? That might have solved your choice problem.

Minsc - persuasion is practically guaranteed. Shouldn't be particularly difficult, Minsc is considerably dumber than Wyll. Persuasion shouldn't be difficult, Deception will be easy, but Intimidation is probably impossible. In the case of an Intimidation attempt, Minsc will attack you, most likely.

Shadowheart - I don't know what string you can pull to manipulate her into agreeing to this. Maybe only Intimidation (and that's not the fact that she wouldn't prefer death). Shedowheart is a religious character, she either finds her faith in Selune or is a devout servant of Shar, and illithids are repugnant to the gods by their very existence. Those who become illithids betray their god forever, and lose any chance for postmortem in the deity's domain (the souls of illithids in DnD lore are sent to the Far Realm, the gods have no power over them, which is probably why Withers says that “illithids have no souls”, for the gods these souls don't exist at all). The character serving the deity, the cleric, is unlikely to ever agree to this blasphemy, more likely to die and go to the domain of their god.

According to the video I linked below the cut, a mind flayer option for Gale was planned, but eventually discarded (it doesn't even have voice acting, it's at 24:30 ish). It would have required him to be super eager to get that Crown, so the opposite of what you suggested.

You can blow up Gale without turning anyone into a mind flayer, if you have previously accepted the special gummy worm from the Emperor and have it in your inventory when talking to Orpheus. He will accept that as insurance. Personally, I am more than content to make Orpheus bite the shrimp, big heroic prince can do the big heroic thing. Thanks.

Thirdly, Gale has an option to redeem himself that does not require him to blow up, it's his orb-free human ending. Giving Mystra the Crown is a compromise that she agrees to and that comes with her forgiveness, she may or may not make him her Chosen again in this version too.


It would be cool if you could ask Lae'zel why she doesn't want to volunteer though.

Nah ...
Hard pass from me.

I mean sure, Omeluum would be great if he would be present for making that decision ...
But there are two problems with him for me:

1) "Oh wait i know a guy, he should probably be somewhere around this city ... i mean, yeah he can basicaly teleport around the world, but could we please put the apocalypse on hold for a few minutes so i can go check if he is still aviable?"

2) And this is maybe even more important question ... since we DO know now, what kind of character is the Emperor:
If he would get another Illithid ally ... far more capable and fitting to his plans than us ... why would he need us still? O_o

AND DONT GET ME WRONG HERE!
Personaly i love dialogue trap options ... and draging Omeluum to the Emperor just to Emperor just state "you are no longer required" and we get game over ... oh that would be sweet as pure lemon. xD


Video is not aviable.

Accepted.


Like a team of fighters to take him to Elder Brain. He's going to use us as a battering ram. To oversimplify, the Emperor's whole plan is to get to the Elder Brain using a militant team with the leader holding a prism. One Omeluum isn't going to replace an entire SWAT team. Besides, there's nothing stopping him from combining two in one - another Illithid ally and a SWAT team, and Omeluum would be an ally for both us and the Emperor (especially since the Emperor and we're allies up to a point), so why choose and give up anything? And whose side Omeluum would take if we decided to free Orpheus is a separate question. But yes, all of this requires at least bringing Omeluum into the camp to begin with.

It's just not available for remote linking. You can click and be transferred to yt (as it says) the direct link is this youtu.be/Lz9kgbMfX14?si=m_4NgKuy9l6Zay9G

Edit: lol The forum is to clever and automatically converts it. ^^ You have to add the https part yourself - or click on the video in my last post to watch the un-embedded version directly at the source.

Wow, some very good ideas have been presented here. Here's my perspective and as always thinking a bit far into the future in the unlikely event of a sequel:

Gale as a nuclear bomb seems to me to be the best solution so far. Mystra will revive him somehow. She has some practice at it herself.

Jenevelle (Is she actually called by her real name again if she chooses Selûne instead of Shar?) Well, anyway, I could well imagine in a sequel that a twin sister suddenly appears and of course Jenevelle will represent Selûne and Shadowheart Shar and continue the battle of the twin goddesses as mortals, so to speak.

Ascended Astarion I would have liked to have seen as another solution, and pretty much the reverse: i.e. not twisted, insane and dumbed down version of a Vampiric Illithid or vice versa.

Quick derailing: No, she asks to still be called Shadowheart because it represents a part of her life and she doesn't want to try to forget things anymore.

Ascended Astarion will never agree to that. He can't be forced - he can just walk away, turning to mist. If the group destroys the Brain without his input, he's just as well getting rid of the tadpole, if the group dies or Tav becomes Absolute, he risks... becoming an Illithid? There is no leverage or manipulation to force the Ascended Astarion to become illithid. That would be a violation of his character. But for Astarion Origin, where the player defines the character's personality, and may want to become an Illithid, the option of him being a Vampiric Illithid would be a nice detail that would show a scrupulous regard for DnD lore, in this case, yes.

But, please, don't have Astarion-illithid in the sequel. I will hate this sequel if the developers do that. But, this is no longer an Larian question, Hasbro has all the rights to the characters, and we're unlikely to see any of the old acquaintances in the next Larian game.

I support the ideas with Gale and Jenevelle/Shadowheart, very interesting solution. Also Shadowheart has a strong and in a special way beautiful “evil ending” in her Origin. This new deity she's become could be a worthy character for a sequel, too.

I mean there doesn't even need to be a reason for companions to become illithid.
Make the ones, who slurped tadpoles the whole game the illithid, because they can't resist. In my game that is Astarion or Minthara, since they don't need convincing. So if you are lucky and have your slurpers with you, just let them get turned by default, including your main character. I think the tadpoles should have more consequences.

I know, this won't be happening anymore, but I wish, this would be a thing. You probably have a nasty surprise in your first playthrough, but after that, you have basically control over who turns. And first playthroughs are rarely perfect anyway.

There is time for that.
And its a bit futher in the future.

???
Care to explain that statement?

What you said may happen ...
Just not at that point.

You mean in the next game? I don't think it will be possible,

Super secret conversations happening here. XD

Yes, I meant that if a companion slurps the tadpoles, they just should get changed by Orpheus or Empi.
In my case: if Minthara is my slurper and I have her with me while freeing Orpheus, he should not even ask, just change her, because she is already mostly Illithid.

Astarion and Minthara must subjugate the Brain themselves and become Absolute in that case, they won't behave like Karlach. Making someone forcibly illithid and expecting that character to do what you want afterwards is extremely foolish, it doesn't work that way, I guess Orpheus who is wise enough and has lived for many years should be realizing this and he wouldn't take that risk. He would rather sacrifice himself for his people and the world than create a new Absolute in this way.

They don't really have an agenda in this scenario. Astarion and Minthara are no more special than any other character honestly. I'm talking about being forced to change, because they used tadpoles. If you don't give Astarion or Minthara tadpoles, then it is different. But I mainly use those two as tadpole slurpers, because I myself don't want to use them.

I meant that characters have their own personalities and if Orpheus forces someone to become illithid, it doesn't make them an obedient zombie, the illithid retains their personality (we see this in the example of Karlach, who changed a bit, but retained many aspects of her personality). Those who have been forcibly made illithid will naturally take revenge, because all the bad things have already happened and they have nothing to lose (rather the opposite, becoming an Absolute will be better than just being an illithid) or they themselves will want to take more power. But after thinking about it, I think it doesn't make sense for another reason - the number of tadpoles is not important, one tadpole is enough for Orpheus to trigger ceremorphosis. One tadpole already triggers full ceremorphosis, Orpheus (in the prism) has blocked signals from the Elder Brain before, all he has to do is stop doing that with any companion or Tav, it doesn't matter how many tadpoles they have in their head, ten or one.

In the scenario of the game, everything is logical and correct - Orpheus turns to the leader of the group. Even if, he could force anyone to change, but he is well aware of the risks. Only someone who volunteers for this sacrifice can be trusted to do so. A lot depends on the character who becomes an illithid, they will have the Crown of Karsus in their hands. Tav can become an Illithid and take over the Brain without any problems, but a companion can't? If Tav refuses (and Tav represents the whole group in this case), and can also talk Karlach out of doing it, then Orpheus has to take over. If Orpheus were a character capable of such a not only cruel but also extremely reckless and stupid (to achieve his goal, and his goal is to stop the Grand Design, it's more important to him than his own life) act, as forcibly changing someone, then among other things, Tav should have had the option to attack him and try to kill him, to prevent him from doing so.

But there could be more volunteers, not just Karlach. Lae'zel, too, could probably offer herself instead of Prince Orpheus, she's motivated to do so. And someone like Wyll or Minsc, Tav could try to persuade (persuading, even if manipulative, is not the same as forcing, the persuaded have agreed to it, accepted it as the right option, and will act as they are required to - to save the world, like Karlach, not destroy it, as the forcibly changed will do).

I think we should remember that Orpheus is a gith and cruel. I personally prefer his route to Empy, but both are not acting out of the goodness of their heart.
And I would find it interesting to attack him, followed of course by an instant game over, since Orpheus power was the only thing, stopping the brain from making the group part of the Grand Design again.

My point was, that there should be stakes and consequences to use the tadpoles - either for Tav/Durge or a companion using the tadpoles. As of now, you only have a consequence, when you choose a specific evil path and botch a dice roll ( though a very high one). I think the tadpoles should be a high risk and high reward thing in general. You should be less able to resist the more tadpoles you consume, because you become more illithid the more you take in and use the power. Minthara is pretty open minded about it in general and doesn't mind the physical changes at all when she consumed the astral tadpole.

And of course a character changed by Orpheus or Empy is not a zombie, but they probably know, that they risk getting controlled by the brain, if they kill the only person, who has the power to prevent that. And even though, not all companions are as smart as Gale or as knowledgeable about illithids as Lae'zel, but by that time, they know the dangers and the full story of the protection.

That is not entirely corect tho ...
Illithids are DnD response to "ship of Theneus" (google it, its fascinating thought experiment).

Illithids copy your whole life, personality, experiences and thoughts into its brain, and while it may seem like that person is still there since that is all they contain in moment of transformation ... the original person died in the process and this is entirely new being ... ergo

And it will dissapear bit by bit as the time goes ...
SInce the same "copy all" process will go with every single feeding.

As the matter of fact, our protagonist should have get game over, once we decide to turn.
But that would be boring.


Agreed.
They may do what you need, but they should logicaly seek a way to mess you up in the process aswell.


+1

Exactly!

Yeah, that's so creepy to think about.

Wouldn't it be very unhelpful though?

In case of the domination ending (I'll just leave the spoiler tags out of it, I assume everyone reading this is well spoiled by now) it would make sense to me if both the player and their partner (maybe also the other companions, if they are part of the scene) had to resist the Netherbrain. The brain wants to regain control and if it fails to subjugate your character but manages to take control over your character's partner, it can then use them to fight you to either lower your defences or kill you.

Empi has already shown that he has no qualms to help you reach your potential against your will at the start of Act 3, but he seems to prefer taking Orpheus' power for himself. So why should he force anyone to transform at the last moment? To have stronger allies? It doesn't sound such a great idea to destroy your allies' main motivation for survival right before the final battle. Yes, there might be players who want to save the realm before all, but I feel most take the neutral stance of wanting a good ending for themselves and their pixel friends.

And Orpheus seems to only accept your proposal if it is a no-way-back commitment situation. It's why he refuses the Orb unless you assure him of a back-up solution, Gale might decide he wants to live after all, but if you have turned into a mind flayer, your fate is sealed. He does not seem to take back-stabbing into account though, which is odd given his distrust and initial hostility towards the player.

Stakes and consequences are all good and well, but I generally prefer a longer build up for choices so you can brood over the decision, instead of these last minute astral jump scares. For example, I love how in Gale's Origin, Mystra reveals that only the orb can truly destroy the Crown. Detonating it would be that ultimate sacrifice for the Weave, while delivering the Crown to her is only a compromise. Right after being given a way out, this heavy burden is placed on your shoulders and it follows you all through Act 3 - and I loved that.

I wouldn't say Orpheus is cruel. Harshness of the gith yes, definitely, as well as the fact that what is truly important to the gith is the well-being of their people and the fates of other races and the inhabitants of Faerûn are unimportant. As long as a member of an alien race does not become an ally of the Gith, they have high notions of honor and the Gith know how to be grateful. Orpheus, moreover, is a wise and skillful diplomat (he builds ties with the Githzerai, as we also learn in the epilogue from Lae'zel, who becomes a diplomatic representative, and given the history of the Githyanki and the Githzerai, that's saying a lot). We've already helped Orpheus, we've already become allies, and if he just forcibly changes someone who has become an ally to him without asking, that's not very honorable for him. It makes much more sense to offer and find a volunteer, especially since someone should understand the meaning and necessity of the act. As a diplomat, Orpheus also has to understand the mindset of other races as well; the one he's trying to forcibly transform may have someone who loves them. Even if they don't attack him at the moment (although I would choose this particular game-over, if Orpheus started changing Astarion, my character would think of nothing else at that moment and I would never free Orpheus again, and would play through the game exclusively in alliance with the Emperor, who definitely wouldn't do that, he's an Illithid himself), after defeating Brain, there's nothing stopping Tav and whoever he made Illithid from getting revenge on Orpheus for that and killing him, and that would bring harm to the entire Gith people and their fight against Vlaakith. Yes and the image of Orpheus it ruins - this character is interesting, well shown (as well as in general githyanki, Lae'zel and their culture is revealed interesting and worthy), causes sympathy, and the bastard who just takes and turns into illithid your companion - well, one bad playthrough, and after that just never want to free him, no matter whether tadpoles were used or not, which also spoils the storyline of Lae'zel and githyanki.


There are consequences for Tav/DU - I had as high a roll as ldo58 for not becoming half-illithid (even I think it was 30 the first time, but I could be lying, I don't remember the exact number) because Astarion and I took almost all the tadpoles for two, when I shared with Minthara in the next playthrough, the roll was still quite high. In Honor mode, I don't use tadpoles myself because of this. I know Minthara is fine with the physical changes, but she won't want revenge, she'll want to become an Absolute and take the power herself and rule.


Not at this moment, when they risk falling under Brain's control, but later, when they use the Crown of Karsus themselves. When Karlach becomes an Illithid, in a fight with Brain, she must subdue Brain using the Crown of Karsus. There is a moment of choice when Tav can make the evil choice to attack Karlach and take control of the Brain. But Karlach could do it herself and subdue both Brain and Tav and everyone else, she doesn't do it not because she can't, but because she never wants to do it. Astarion and Minthara will do it. In Astarion's case, Orpheus will be very, very hurt afterward, and Minthara will probably be satisfied with that outcome, and she won't let go of this power that has fallen into her hands on its own.


Yes, thank you! Also, the illithid has a completely different set of hormones, these hormones are clearly different from the original state and, under the influence of these hormones there are quite serious changes, + every time we eat the brain we get a copy of the personality. Illithid is no longer a warm-blooded mammal, it's a different organism altogether. Karlach says her engine has cooled down (illithids are clearly cold-blooded, more like an amphibian, like a fish). Over time, enriched by these experiences from multiple meals, and naturally a different hormonal background of the illithid, the personality will change greatly, gaining knowledge and experience of the surrounding world of all these eaten humanoids. Karlach becomes much calmer after the transformation, her previous emotionality disappears literally immediately, which also shows the changes in the hormonal background and neural connections of the illithid. Illithid gets the life experience of the eaten humanoid + new hormonal background of illithid = in time there will be little left of the former worldview of the individual (illithid will also stop humanizing food, but will distinguish who is a friend and who is an enemy). But, unlike the real world, there is a soul physically on Faerûn. The soul is still there, and it is this soul that Ansur tried to pull out of Balduran. In the Emperor's story, the Emperor's body itself lay sleeping, and Ansur was talking to Balduran's soul. But as the Emperor was under the influence of a new hormonal cocktail, he liked his new form and had no intention of terminating it. Illithids tend to like a new form, even if the character had previously perceived the transformation as something immeasurably horrible, new hormones affect the personality. Even Orpheus, who asks to be finished off so he doesn't “live as an abomination”, can be talked out of it and will live. Ansur wanted to free Balduran from his new shell, he wanted to return his soul and allow his soul to enter the Domein (he probably expected to fish Balduran's soul out of the Astral Sea and bring it to the Fields of the Dead, since the gods themselves have no power over Illithid souls, this is an assumption since Ansur considered this act a mercy).

If viewed from the outside, from the eyes of someone who knew this individual before, then, under the influence of the new hormonal cocktail and the experience of the meals, that viewer might say that the illithid has lost their soul, themselves, everything. Neuroscience - hormones guide our decisions.

I liked how Larian showed the interaction between Ansur and Balduran. Also, as Karlach is still there. Will she change by eating other people's brains - yes, she will.


Yeah, and this is basically impossible to display in a game (for the player). Imagining how we'd feel and what we'd think if our human hormones were replaced with illithid hormones is impossible. Not to mention the experience of being fed. It can be reasoned that a newborn illithid that has not yet eaten another's brains is still guided to the greatest extent by the experience and worldview of their former personality.


That's right. Otherwise, there's just no point in all this saving the realm if you and your friends aren't to live in it.

Ha!
Not at all, my friend ... not at all.

You see there are lots of games (especialy if you like certain themes, lets say it this way) ... where your protagonist is basicaly lost in the process ... same situation could happen here.

Lets imagine together:
Instead of transformation scene we got ... where our character simply squirm in pain (is suppose) and then illithid stands its place ... we would make something entirely new, and unique in this game.

We would ... change our perspective to first person!

Imagine:
You click on that dialogue option, offering yourself to turn ... and then you see your character squirm and being in pain ... next second, you are no longer looking AT the character, you are looking at The Emperor / Orpheus trough your character eyes, still squirming ... and the sight fades to dark in meere seconds, all you hear there is Narator telling something like:
"Too late you realize this is end of your journey, too late you understand true weight of your decision, but there is no going back, not anymore ... your body, your mind, even your soul, everything has ben lost in the process ... the ultimate sacrifice."

Then we let this nothingness for a second or two to sink in ...
And once again in first person, we would trough eyes of our character see in flash of light The Emperor / Orpheus abowe us ...
Narator telling something like:
"You were BORN anew! Yet you rememer your own death. You wonder for a second if is this really you, or just something that remembers you?
But there is time and place for such questions, and its not here, nor now ... you have work to do.

And then you get that scene, where newborn Illithid is standing up and materializing that weird armor.

Tada!
Entirely possible as you may see.

In Disco Elysium, once you start watching someone else's playthrough, you immediately turn it off so you don't spoiler further and get to play the game yourself as quickly as possible:


Hardspace: Shipbreaker is an example of breaking the illusion of continuity, when you first get to the place where you will be disassembling ships, an automated system puts you in a capsule and sort of kills you in the process of creating a digital copy of your neural network to revive in case of an emergency while disassembling ships.


I imagined it... And... Impressive. Yes, you can create a great transformation entourage from an artistic point of view.

Ha, I like it! Still could work on the dialog lines - display the perception of this change in the dialog options, more other dialog options for Tav-illithid different from those of regular Tav, and more lines from the narrator relative to those of other characters - for example, another illithid could communicate with Tav-illithid mentally, and a dialog with a humanoid character may be framed by words from the narrator pushing Tav in a certain direction (“He's subject to his emotions and thinks this decision is absolutely right”, “You would have reacted differently before, but now you have a lot more senses, you're free of emotions and can see the bigger picture”).

In Disco Elysium, an example of conveying the perception of Harry's new personality is that the narrator, represented by Harry's different senses, says only what his new personality sees and perceives, and over the course of the game, as we unravel the events that led Harry to this state, also in parallel investigating the murder, by the end of the game we have a complete picture of who Harry was. But at the beginning of the game we get sort of a new identity for Harry, who is open to different paths.

If we're thinking about immersion, then yes, it turns out it is possible to create an impressive entourage of trasformation.

Feels like we are aiming towards offtopic ...
So i say just this, and then leave it ... if i dont respond any futher, dont take it personaly.

Raphaël states in Act 3 that the elder brain does not have emotions like humanoid mortals, but that his current state is very much like "angry".
So I think that they do have this emotional factor complementing the pure logic.

I enjoyed our discussion, thank you! In conclusion, I will add one point:



Yes, I agree, “emotional factor complementing the pure logic” is probably the most accurate and closest to the truth.