Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion (Spoiler) (Suggestion) All Companions Should Have This Act III Option

I mean there doesn't even need to be a reason for companions to become illithid.
Make the ones, who slurped tadpoles the whole game the illithid, because they can't resist. In my game that is Astarion or Minthara, since they don't need convincing. So if you are lucky and have your slurpers with you, just let them get turned by default, including your main character. I think the tadpoles should have more consequences.

I know, this won't be happening anymore, but I wish, this would be a thing. You probably have a nasty surprise in your first playthrough, but after that, you have basically control over who turns. And first playthroughs are rarely perfect anyway.

There is time for that.
And its a bit futher in the future.

???
Care to explain that statement?

What you said may happen ...
Just not at that point.

You mean in the next game? I don't think it will be possible,

Super secret conversations happening here. XD

Yes, I meant that if a companion slurps the tadpoles, they just should get changed by Orpheus or Empi.
In my case: if Minthara is my slurper and I have her with me while freeing Orpheus, he should not even ask, just change her, because she is already mostly Illithid.

Astarion and Minthara must subjugate the Brain themselves and become Absolute in that case, they won't behave like Karlach. Making someone forcibly illithid and expecting that character to do what you want afterwards is extremely foolish, it doesn't work that way, I guess Orpheus who is wise enough and has lived for many years should be realizing this and he wouldn't take that risk. He would rather sacrifice himself for his people and the world than create a new Absolute in this way.

They don't really have an agenda in this scenario. Astarion and Minthara are no more special than any other character honestly. I'm talking about being forced to change, because they used tadpoles. If you don't give Astarion or Minthara tadpoles, then it is different. But I mainly use those two as tadpole slurpers, because I myself don't want to use them.

I meant that characters have their own personalities and if Orpheus forces someone to become illithid, it doesn't make them an obedient zombie, the illithid retains their personality (we see this in the example of Karlach, who changed a bit, but retained many aspects of her personality). Those who have been forcibly made illithid will naturally take revenge, because all the bad things have already happened and they have nothing to lose (rather the opposite, becoming an Absolute will be better than just being an illithid) or they themselves will want to take more power. But after thinking about it, I think it doesn't make sense for another reason - the number of tadpoles is not important, one tadpole is enough for Orpheus to trigger ceremorphosis. One tadpole already triggers full ceremorphosis, Orpheus (in the prism) has blocked signals from the Elder Brain before, all he has to do is stop doing that with any companion or Tav, it doesn't matter how many tadpoles they have in their head, ten or one.

In the scenario of the game, everything is logical and correct - Orpheus turns to the leader of the group. Even if, he could force anyone to change, but he is well aware of the risks. Only someone who volunteers for this sacrifice can be trusted to do so. A lot depends on the character who becomes an illithid, they will have the Crown of Karsus in their hands. Tav can become an Illithid and take over the Brain without any problems, but a companion can't? If Tav refuses (and Tav represents the whole group in this case), and can also talk Karlach out of doing it, then Orpheus has to take over. If Orpheus were a character capable of such a not only cruel but also extremely reckless and stupid (to achieve his goal, and his goal is to stop the Grand Design, it's more important to him than his own life) act, as forcibly changing someone, then among other things, Tav should have had the option to attack him and try to kill him, to prevent him from doing so.

But there could be more volunteers, not just Karlach. Lae'zel, too, could probably offer herself instead of Prince Orpheus, she's motivated to do so. And someone like Wyll or Minsc, Tav could try to persuade (persuading, even if manipulative, is not the same as forcing, the persuaded have agreed to it, accepted it as the right option, and will act as they are required to - to save the world, like Karlach, not destroy it, as the forcibly changed will do).

I think we should remember that Orpheus is a gith and cruel. I personally prefer his route to Empy, but both are not acting out of the goodness of their heart.
And I would find it interesting to attack him, followed of course by an instant game over, since Orpheus power was the only thing, stopping the brain from making the group part of the Grand Design again.

My point was, that there should be stakes and consequences to use the tadpoles - either for Tav/Durge or a companion using the tadpoles. As of now, you only have a consequence, when you choose a specific evil path and botch a dice roll ( though a very high one). I think the tadpoles should be a high risk and high reward thing in general. You should be less able to resist the more tadpoles you consume, because you become more illithid the more you take in and use the power. Minthara is pretty open minded about it in general and doesn't mind the physical changes at all when she consumed the astral tadpole.

And of course a character changed by Orpheus or Empy is not a zombie, but they probably know, that they risk getting controlled by the brain, if they kill the only person, who has the power to prevent that. And even though, not all companions are as smart as Gale or as knowledgeable about illithids as Lae'zel, but by that time, they know the dangers and the full story of the protection.

That is not entirely corect tho ...
Illithids are DnD response to "ship of Theneus" (google it, its fascinating thought experiment).

Illithids copy your whole life, personality, experiences and thoughts into its brain, and while it may seem like that person is still there since that is all they contain in moment of transformation ... the original person died in the process and this is entirely new being ... ergo

And it will dissapear bit by bit as the time goes ...
SInce the same "copy all" process will go with every single feeding.

As the matter of fact, our protagonist should have get game over, once we decide to turn.
But that would be boring.


Agreed.
They may do what you need, but they should logicaly seek a way to mess you up in the process aswell.


+1

Exactly!

Yeah, that's so creepy to think about.

Wouldn't it be very unhelpful though?

In case of the domination ending (I'll just leave the spoiler tags out of it, I assume everyone reading this is well spoiled by now) it would make sense to me if both the player and their partner (maybe also the other companions, if they are part of the scene) had to resist the Netherbrain. The brain wants to regain control and if it fails to subjugate your character but manages to take control over your character's partner, it can then use them to fight you to either lower your defences or kill you.

Empi has already shown that he has no qualms to help you reach your potential against your will at the start of Act 3, but he seems to prefer taking Orpheus' power for himself. So why should he force anyone to transform at the last moment? To have stronger allies? It doesn't sound such a great idea to destroy your allies' main motivation for survival right before the final battle. Yes, there might be players who want to save the realm before all, but I feel most take the neutral stance of wanting a good ending for themselves and their pixel friends.

And Orpheus seems to only accept your proposal if it is a no-way-back commitment situation. It's why he refuses the Orb unless you assure him of a back-up solution, Gale might decide he wants to live after all, but if you have turned into a mind flayer, your fate is sealed. He does not seem to take back-stabbing into account though, which is odd given his distrust and initial hostility towards the player.

Stakes and consequences are all good and well, but I generally prefer a longer build up for choices so you can brood over the decision, instead of these last minute astral jump scares. For example, I love how in Gale's Origin, Mystra reveals that only the orb can truly destroy the Crown. Detonating it would be that ultimate sacrifice for the Weave, while delivering the Crown to her is only a compromise. Right after being given a way out, this heavy burden is placed on your shoulders and it follows you all through Act 3 - and I loved that.