Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Are we supposed to imagine everyone's forgotten their abilities?

Warning, storyline partial spoilers.

We allready talked about this so many times ...

I never stop to wonder me why people think Astarion specificly should have any skills at all, i mean ... yes, he had a few (2 of them if i remember corectly) centuries to gain experience, but from his own words, all he did for Cazador was to find a fine looking noble and mingle with them long enough so they are inter ested in some private action ... and then simply lure them to his Master's lair.
Wich of that says "Rogue skills" to you? xD
(And btw i say this the whole time ... he should have ben Bard.)

Wyll's story was partialy rewritten, wich made him a bit messy ...
But this was exactly my point during EA, when i thought that Wyll is a unwilling fraud ... imagine the twist, if he would find out during our adventure that Myzora was leading him by the nose this whole time ... and all those "heroic wictories" he brag so much about, were just her in disguise, or some low imps or something.
Shame ...

Gale in my honest opinion makes the most sense ... thinking that he wields an orb that "consume magic" ... it seems only logical that his own magical powers will be diminished by that. He may still know all the incantations, but simply lack spellslots.

And finaly Lae'zel ... this is imho just another case of ego boost, no matter what Lae'zel does she automaticly assumes she is better at that than anyone else, just bcs she is a Githyanki and they "simply are better". xD

It is said a few times in the game, that the tadpole swapped their abilities and they had to relearn them.
So no matter, if Wyll fought hell beasts, Karlach was the hero of the blood war, Gale the next Elminster or Astarion practicing lock picking for 200 years, they were temporarily disconnected from that and had to relearn. In Gales case, the orb is a second problem hindering him and as Rag mentioned, Astarion was a slave and I doubt, Cazador was about training his spawn.

Less "Forgotten" and more "Suppressed"

Illithid tadpoles are supposed to completely consume the host "Body and soul" erasing all aspects of them and creating a new Illithid with it's own mind and abilities in their place. This being quite literal in the sense that they eat away the hosts brain entirely and replace it while transforming their body into an Illithid one. This ensures that nothing is left of the original host and this new Illithid is completely at the command of the Nether Brain with no possibility of the original host existing again.

The tadpoles used by the Absolute are modified, in a way where they don't consume the host's mind (Even after full ceremorphosis, the Emperor still has his own mind intact - As well as whomever is relevant for the final confrontation) for whatever asinine reason, as this makes literally no sense from any perspective.

Like literally, the only thing this modification provides... Is the ability to have a bunch of gullible idiots run around as "True Souls"... Whereas if they used unmodified tadpoles, they'd just focibly implant whomever and then they'd get a completely subservient Illithid. With only extremely rare cases like Omeluum where an Illithid splits from the hivemind and develops individuality.

But I digress, the fact remains is that these (Stupidly) modified tadpoles do suppress powers, while retaining some ability to be commanded to further ceremorphosis and provide power back to the host (Which is used to entice "True Souls" by offering them power and rewarding them for furthering the Absolute's plans). However, due to the Artifact and the people within, the Absolute is cut off from providing commands to the PC/Companions tadpoles so there is no power returned after the initial suppression (As the price to prevent the later commands to instantly ceremorphose once you're actively fighting the Absolutists)

Thus all the companions are stuck as level 1 plebs until they regain power naturally (Or stick more tadpoles into their brain to unlock Illithid powers... Which is something that raises further questions... Mostly around how in the heck do multiple tadpoles co-exist peacefully inside one mind...)

Something hilarious just occured to me ...

Astarion is a Vampire ...
Vampires in DnD cant enter houses without permition ...

Meaning even if he would indeed spend last 200y picking locks ... what would he do with such skill?

Can you imagine?
He sneaks up to a locked door/window ... pulls out his trusted set of lockpicks ... silently open said door/window ... and then say "oh ... right" ... and just leave, since he cant enter anyway. xD

This statement is debatable ...

Mind Flayers are DnD version of "ship of Theseus" ...
(Feel free to google it, if you dont know, its quite interesting thought experiment.)

Regular tadpole is creating complete copy of the Host ... it feels reasonable to expect newborn illithid to see themselves as previous person, even if that one is no longer there ...
And over time, as they consume more and more brains, they are not just consuming matter, but memories and experiences aswell (that is why The Emperos is able to steal that shielding ability from Orpheus ... by eating his brain, he litterally learned how to do that) ...

Meaning the Mind Flayer starts as the Host ... but as they keep on living, they are slowly becoming amalgamation of all people they consumed.
(Fun fact: That is why its bad idea to let Mind Flayer only eat criminals, you are growing yourself one first class psychopath ... oh wait. xD )

Better point.

Jaheira is a nearly 150 year old HALF-ELF! She was level 18 by the end of Baldur's Gate 2, at a minimum. And now when you get her she is at most level 10 and forgot everything about being a fighter.

Halsin is 350 year old high druid, who fought in the first fight against Thorm over 100 years ago. And yet is barely level 4 when you get him in the grove.

Minsc was a level 20 ranger by the end of BG2, 150 years ago... and Human.... Who turned to stone.

Volo... a level 1 wizard human born in the 1300s DR, is some how a bard in BG3?



Dont get me started on the Emperor. No. Just no. The story they cooked up for him makes no sense. The human he was based on vanished almost 400 years prior to the events in BG3. Humans live for 80-100 years in D&D, and Mind Flayers live for 150 years, max. They do not combine or change base on the original species. The only species has an effect on Mind Flayers is Gnomes. And it is about a 5% chance of a Mind Flayer becoming a short "gnomish" version. Even his transformation story doesnt match up. As Moonrise wasnt built till the early 1300s and that individual vanished in the mid to late 1000s, 300 years prior.

Not really.

When a Mind Flayer consumes a brain (Including the initial host) they acquire a shard of that person. A small echo of them, which intergrates into their Illithid self in the form of an incomplete memory, a personality trait, a fear etc.

They taste the full person as they consume the brain, but they only integrate a small portion of them into their being, which simply merges with the rest of their self (Quite unlike the Ship of Theseus, which is all about replacing parts) - Unless they notice it and purge that shard.

Yet the Emperor has complete recollection of his existence pre-Illithid. Not just "Oh, I vaguely recall being this person" but all the details of his life. This mind also takes full control completely once he goes into proximity to the artifact, completely suppressing the entire Illithid mind, indicating that it is completely separate to the Illithid mind and hence, not merged into it like a normal Illithid.

Sure, maybe we can attribute this to Magic Man Orpheus and his aura of BS. But at the very least it's indicating that these tadpoles are somehow (And for some reason) causing their original hosts minds to be kept intact and then suppressed by their Illithid selves. With this suppression being able to be itself supressed by Magic Man Orpheus (Though, somehow selectively... As other Mind Flayers besides the Emperor are unaffected. Not to mention you can waltz right into the middle of Moonrise and no other "True Souls" find themselves shielded by the artifact you're holding...)

I thought that was the idea ...

400y ago he was a human ...
+/- 300y ago as an old human he was infected ...
And few unspecified years later he found an astral prism and entered it, since there is no flow of time, he didnt age ...

What am i missing?

Thinking is a bane of BG3.

Challenge:
Name a story (from last decade) where you cant say this.

If you talk about Hollywood movies, then yes, they've been bad.

But the main story of BG2 was also riddiculous.


Also, Larian wasnt given a choice about the main plot really. It had to have Mindflayers, WotC said.

To what has already been said in the thread, Mindflayers need one adult brain of a sentient race every week to maintain themselves. They cant eat anything else as substitute.

So - benevolent Mindflayers ? Independent Mindflayers ? Mindflayer slaves ? Mindflayer mass production ? Those are all absurd proposals.

Every Mindflayer is an enormous demand on resources. To run just a small colony of 20 Mindflayers, you need multiple 10,000 of slaves, so you can farm them for 1,000 adult brains every year. Alternatively you need just as many free people that you have to hunt down.

About the artifact not being noticed in MR, my theory is that, because it is a pocket in the Astral plain, the physical location on the material plain does not matter. The emperor can shield anyone he considers useful at any place. At the start of the game, while on the ravaged beach, he can still shield Karlach near the Tollhouse. It's also clear when you save Minsc, that the shield does not extend automatically to anyone nearby. Only the emperor can grant it.
Which leaves one question : Why does he shield Minthara during the victory party if you go the evil route and sack the grove. Well, allying with Minthara was YOUR (Tav's ) choice, and the Emperor might approve of it and see a lot of potential in Minthara, if her devotion to Orin is broken, which will be your task.

This may also give support for the fact that the partymembers were once very mighty adventurers. They've proven their worth once already, and that is the reason why the emperor chose these and only these selected few to go against the absolute. Trusting that you would be capable to do it a second time.

Aye, but this raises a lot of questions. Such as:

If Orpheus is the one granting the power... Why is the Emperor able to control it? Sure, if the Emperor eats Orpheus's brain he might get to inherit this power... But he's manipulating this power well before then.

Then, if we consider that this power is selective... Why did Orpheus choose to use it on the Emperor in the first place? Literally the Emperor only regained his individuality after being affected by the power.

Why would he choose these companions?

Like, sure Karlach has proven herself... But the rest?

- Tav is a random no-name. No feats or accomplishments at all.
- Durge is literally being manipulated by Bhaal, so there's going to be conflicts of interest (Especially when one of the main antagonists is Bhaal's chosen...)
- Wyll is subject to his pact. So he's on the leash of Mizora and can only do as she wishes. He's not completely free to go about and mess with the Absolute.
- Gale has his Netherese Orb inside him. One slip in the Emperor's ability to protect him and he'll pop, not just a ceremorphosis but an entire nuke (Both the first dream visit he mentions "I got here just in time" and later after the Creche there's a whole thing about how he's struggling to keep control) - Can the artifact survive a full on Netherese Orb blast?
- Lae'zel is a Gith youngling. Any Gith would make a poor choice for an ally given their protocol is to instantly kill anyone infected (WIth that being the ultimate goal of the Zaith'isk too). You can't even argue that she's some spectacular god slaying warrior, as she's inexperienced (She has some fighting experience, but not enough to be notably worth the risk of her following protocol and being put down)
- Astarion is just a magistrate who's been tortured as a prisoner for 200 years. Yes, he's a vampire spawn and so has a few extra abilities... But he's not "Proven himself". Heck, how would the Emperor even know these tadpoles would sever his connection to Cazador and allow him any free will at all?
- Shadowheart is a Sharran, whom seem to be allied with the Absolutists. She may have helped in taking the artifact away from the Gith... But her mission was to then hand it over to the Sharrans and thus the Absolutists.

Literally anyone besides Karlach makes no sense and she wasn't even a planned implantation she just happened to get picked up while the Nautiloid was fleeing through Avernus...

About Lae'zel, there's once again something loopy. Yes, she acts like a brazen youth. Minthara commments that she is still young. But when she is before Vlaakith, the undying queen comments that <dontrememberhisname> from Kh'lir speaks highly of her. As did his predecessor <dontrememberhisname2> from Kh'lir before him. So that then points to a certain status and experience.

About Moonrise tower. The confusion comes from cut content. The tower we see is the second version that Keitheric rebuilt (before his first fall). There was a quest that would’ve taken us to the old ruins under the rebuilt one. I don’t remember why they cut this info; however, they kept some hints and odd time warps in a few areas without any explanation. Thus the confusion.

It was the first tower that Baldurian/the Emperor visited.

And (I am fuzzy on this lore), the resident mindflayer colony collapsed (why?) and it’s elder brain went into a form of hibernation before awakening by the game’s antagonists. Before it did so, it seems to have planned the events of BG3 and “freed” some of it’s mindflayers (to unknowingly carry out this mission). The Emperor is one, but I suspect the other “free” and “nice” one (Omeluum) was also apart of this defunct colony.

Also, about them forgetting their stats, they did Minsc wrong on so many level. His personal stat block also gets readjusted when you recruit him. Look at his stats before you defeat him and then after you recruit him. The only why I can head cannon this is that the elder brain allows you to retain your old abilities as long as you serve (plus some gifted abilities). Once you come under Orpheus’s influence it mostly reverts to any thing you learn after you got the worm. Only issue… Minsc apparently got weaker but got wiser and smarter with a side of extra rizz.

Jaheira I can chalk up to old age (I am over 3 decades from my twenties and I can honestly attest). IIRC she is equivalent of 60 to 70 human years. Druids in 5E apparently don’t age any slower unless they do the rite that slows aging.

No clue on Halsin and the others.

One thing to point out. Age is an odd thing in the DnD universe. A mortal can be virtually immortal.

I suspect the Emperor was actually an Ulitharid (he either never showed his extra tentacles or it was an artistic oversight). IIRC they can live much longer than a basic mindflayer, if properly nourished, and can become an elder brain if allowed. This IMO is the Emperor’s ultimate goal to ensure his freedom (enact the grand design with himelf as the nether brain 🧠 once he “consumes” the actual nether brain). Only strong servants may serve him, the rest are fodder.

All the Emperor’s abilities (including shifting in and out of the prism) is explained by this. See the wiki below to compare. Your charecter can’t go in and out of the prism even though you possess it.


https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ulitharid

The emperor seems to be like Doctor Strange (Marvel superheroes), able to analyze millions of possible steps in the future and choose the one that has the best ending. If he had seen that Astarion was a link in Cazador's ascension ritual, now broken free. He might have calculated a fairly high possibility that the spawn would want to take revenge, discover t the existence of the ritual and ascend instead. So that would make him a valuable soldier, even if he wasn't very high level rogue before.
Yes, I know every explanation is a bit contrived.
Apparently the emperor didn't know that Raphaël could block him out. Oops.

I think someone, preferably Larian, should write the story. Maybe as a comic book. Of the whole prequel , from the 3 chosen planning to get the crown. The rise of the absolute. The emperor's and Shadowheart's quest for the prism. All up to the beginning of the game. I think it could make some money, even though there would obviously be inconsistencies with the game. But I think there would be a public for a consistent story. I think I would buy that book.

BTW, in my latest PT there was a discussion with Karlach that I think I didn't have before. (I'm now playing a Gale origin PC) which made me think that Gortash sold Karlach to Zariël in order to get the plans to create the steel watch. (They are made of infernal iron after all)
Or maybe this is common knowledge and I just missed it before.

I think this makes more sense if Orpheus didn't use it on the Emperor in the first place.

According to the elder brain, "When the Chosen sent my thralls to retrieve the Prism - who do you think let the 'Emperor' slip its leash, knowing it would be the one to bring you to me?"

I take it that the elder brain deliberately ended its control over the Emperor, but did so in a way that the Emperor mistook it as being caused by proximity to the prism.