Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Orpheus Plot Hole

SPOILERS

Okay. Was writing the climax for my fanfic, the Afflicted, which is a narrative of my original characters going through BG3 including elements that were in early access and my own original ideas and dialogues, etc.

I finally got to Orpheus, and I finally found a flaw I could not reconcile in any way. Up until now, I've been able to reconcile everything else in the game, but this one thing has me completely unable to work through.

Orpheus becomes a mind flayer.

I even chose this ending in my initial playthrough, but it hit me as I was trying to write this out. When did Orpheus get infected by a mind flayer tadpole so he could suddenly transform into a mind flayer? It's like he just decides, "Okay. I will die in your place by just willing myself to become a mind flayer. No no. Don't try to stop me. I must do this.". And then miraculously, he transforms into one.

Are we to assume that the Emperor infected him also? No. There is no mention of him getting infected, and he does not treat the PCs as if he is one of them because he's also been infected. He literally just decides to be a mind flayer, and he turns into one.

So I canned that possible ending altogether and I'm making my own. I was kinda disappointed about the ending for Orpheus anyway. But THAT... Yeah. Sorry Larian. I can't reconcile that one. That was not well thought out.

I thought his willingness to become a mindflayer was bad enough.

"At last, I am free from millennia of captivity! The son of gith will take his rightful place among the Astral Sea!"
"Could you become a mindflayer instead?"
"Yeah, alright."

I did enjoy my evil ending, but that was _such_ a letdown

I haven't really seen a ton of endings for the game, but from what I've read, thus far the Orpheus one appears to be the weakest and most unbelievable. I also remember being rather disappointed in it because I saved Orpheus with the idea that he would work with my PCs to defeat the Absolute perhaps without someone transforming into a mind flayer. I mean, here's this super powerful gith prince who the entire game has built up as a guy with incredible powers that can even defeat an elder brain's powers, but without any persuasion whatsoever, he just gives in and says, "Yep. The Emperor's right. The only way to stop the Absolute is to have someone become a mind flayer. No other options. Guess one of us is doomed."

Yeah its one if the many failures of Larian.

They just had luck that most BG3 players were only interested in waifus and bear sex and did not care about a consistent story, otherwise BG3 would have tanked.

They rewrote large sections of the game, shoved in the Emperor in the last minute and removed every form of branching story. And clearly they had no idea what to do with Orpheus.

You won't be surprised to learn this juncture in the plot is where a few people think the story goes off the rails. Or on it, depending on your point of view.

Daisy, the Absolute, and the Emperor

I don't remember if they address it. But Orpheus is incredibly old at this point, so maybe he was tadpoled during the War, or when he was betrayed.

I'm glad you ended up playing the game GM4Him

To be fair, the game is mechanically solid (Not amazing, but decent).

With most of Act 1 and Act 2 being relatively coherent story. There are a few outliers, like inconsistency with the Nautiloid and acquisition of characters. But otherwise it's not THAT bad storywise (Other than the disconnect between utilizing tadpole powers and being told you "Feel part of yourself slipping away" and the actual lack of any consequences from using them)

It's really just Act 3 where the writing goes to pot. With the Emperor and Orpheus being written so horrendously. As well as some companion stories being pretty awful in their Act 3 conclusion...

Mechanically it also has many bad points like party control, trading, stealth, the dialogue time freeze, ect.

Yes, which is why I said it's not amazing.

There are some bad points, but overall there's enough there that's actually okay or good to make it play decently.

I haven't studied the Githyanki-Illithid wars in much detail, so what I say here, based on fragments of knowledge may be utter nonsense.

But the successful offensive against the mindflayer hegemony started with Gith making a deal with archdevil Tiamat. Gith herself did not return from the dealmaking, but her people obtained the aid of dragons and the power to destroy the grand design and to liberate themselves, and many other peoples from realmspace from Illithid submission.

So, are dragons sufficient to do this ? Or did Tiamat also provide Gith's son with mental powers equal to an elder brain, enabling him to disrupt the hivemind and break the Illithid defenses. If that is so it also explains why none of the Vlaakith's afterwards were able to master that powerful weapon.

Maybe this clould also expain how his elder brain power enabled him to transform his mortal shape to that of an illithid. All while remaining independent without the need to submit to an elder brain's hivemind. (As he was basically an EB by mind himself)

Yea, it's not very satisfactory, but maybe a way out to help choose that ending.

Unless this was changed post-2e, the deal between Gith and Tiamat was after the liberation from the Grand Design and the schism between Githyanki and Githzerai. The Githzerai rebelled against Gith for going down the same path of tyranny they had suffered under the yoke of the Illithid Empire. Gith wanted to conquer the planes, the Githzerai and their spiritual leader Zerthimon demanded peace. For the deal with Tiamat, a group of Githyanki, led by Gith and including her advisor Vlaakith, travelled to Tiamat's domain in Avernus and Gith never returned, making Vlaakith I. the first queen of the Githyanki by her last decree - according to Vlaakith. The 2e-stats for Vlaakith CLVII. who we see in BG3, show a very powerful high-level githyanki lich, but except for being able to use a Githyanki's own plane shift ability to yank them back to Tu'narath, no special powers beyond that. Maybe those were lost in undeath. From what I remember, sources like the Illithiad or Guide to Astral Space only hint at Gith leading the first mind flayer thralls that became resistant to psionics, without particular bloodlines or details being mentioned. There are also no stats for "noble" Githyanki, but it's quite likely that Vlaakith would have consumed them all by now, since that hard level-cap and the ascension go back to at least 2e. The only other possibly noble Gith in the game is the Githzerai's spiritual leader Zaerith, who is said to have powers beyond imagination with rumours abound of him being half-illithid, undead or a god.

Yeah. I don't know. Orpheus' first words are that he smells the stench of illithid upon the party, making it sound like he isn't infected himself. If he was infected with a tadpole at that point, I would think that he would not treat them with such disdain, even if he is a proud Gith. I mean, I would think he would not respond by saying WE have illithid stench on us.

Now, he would clearly be upset that we destroyed his honor guard and worked with the Emperor, but seeing as how he seems pretty knowledgeable that the Grand Design is the ultimate evil here, I would think that he would even be a bit more understanding of why we killed his honor guard if he was also infected. The desire to be cured from an illithid tadpole would be far more honorable to someone like him, I would think, than surrendering to be executed for something even HE has floating around in his brain.

Yeah, I just have a hard time believing he is infected by that point, and I have an even harder time believing that HE would accept being a mind flayer even IF he had a tadpole in his brain. No. He abhors illithids, and although I could see him not necessarily trusting anyone but himself to face the Absolute with the Netherstones, I REALLY struggle with him just saying, "Yep. The Emperor was right. Although my mother's powers flow through me and we used them to free ourselves and our people eons ago from illithid elder brains, I wholeheartedly believe that the only way I could possibly defeat this Netherbrain - which I've never faced a Netherbrain before, mind you, so I couldn't possibly fully know how powerful it is - is if one of us becomes a brand new mind flayer. And since I only trust myself, I'm willing to do it. Never mind that they are the most vile things imaginable to me. I'm just willing to accept this and run with it. Please kill me afterwards, by the way. Thanks."

My struggle with this ending was it felt like an unnecessary sacrifice. I went with Orpheus as a savior because I thought it might be the only way for NO ONE to turn into a mind flayer, and I ABSOLUTELY did not trust the Emperor. He was willing to kill his old best friend for survival sake. How much more readily would he toss me and my companions aside and just take over the Netherbrain himself as soon as he got his hands on the Netherstones? So as I sat there pondering how this could go, I thought that Orpheus might be powerful enough to defeat the Netherbrain WITH our help. We would use the Netherstones combined - 3 of my characters hitting it at the same time - and Orpheus would use his powers to suppress part of the Netherbrain's power. Together, we could hit the Netherbrain from different, unexpected angles while Orpheus suppressed a good portion of its power. After all, the whole game made such a big deal about just how powerful the dumb relic was, and Orpheus is the power behind it. So why SHOULDN'T Orpheus have a much greater impact against it while maintaining his original form?

It just didn't make sense to me, and it didn't sit well with me. But then again, I wasn't real happy with any of my other options, so I went with it.

BTW. The above is not how the fanfic goes. I'm taking it in a slightly different direction.

I think it is quite a credit to your creativity that you managed to somehow reconcile BG3 story up to that point.

Orpheus changing into Mindflayer at a whim is one of the more puzzling developments even for act3.