Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion There must be more true friend companions in the game who support you no matter what

Really? Imagine your wife has been deeply loyal to her people and country since birth - willing to die to protect both. But it's Nazi Germany, and it was recently announced that Jews are arch enemies. Now imagine you are her Jewish husband. What should she choose: report you to the Gestapo as an enemy of the German people, or hide you, risk her life, and become an enemy of the very state she's devoted to? Ask your therapist which choice in this case represents true loyalty to a loved person.

The insinuation here, is that you believe that love only counts if the person will simply drop all of their prior beliefs at the drop of a hat in favour of you.

When even in this scenario, it's a lot more complicated. Since your wife was loyal to Germany, but then the German government was upended when the Nazi party rose to power. It wasn't a case of your wife being a loyal Nazi for her whole life and then suddenly out of the blue they dropped the anti-semetism. No, it was a massive shift in the political climate during a very short period of time that dramatically changed the country.

Then of course, we have the notion of "Wife and Husband" - Signifying a relationship that has matured, usually over a long time. With an expression of devotion from a marriage ceremony. (Though this is complex as women were pressured into early marriage during this time period due to only men being allowed to partake in jobs that paid well enough to support owning a home). Whereas, in BG3, we're talking a very short scale of time. A relationship that has lasted at most a month. Thus will not have much time to become anywhere near as deep as a long term relationship (On top of being with people who mostly have massive hangups about relationships too... Lae'zel being a Gith and not respecting the notion of relationships, Astarion being messed up from centuries of abuse, Shadowheart being literally brainwashed by a literal cult, Gale being on the rebound from a failed relationship, Karlach facing the issue of her infernal engine heart making her only able to live in Avernus).

Finally, we have the complexity that is loyalty and love. In this scenario, we have the wife wanting to protect their husband out of love. On the other hand the husband may want to protect their wife out of love and will want them to report him so that she will be safe. In the latter case, the wife is still showing loyalty to her husband by honouring his wishes and reporting him, allowing himself to sacrifice to keep her safe.

Love and loyalty are very multi-faceted emotions. Made even more messy by the fact that these emotions can be felt for multiple things at once (Especially true in the case of relationships that include children)

Look, Wyll, you won an award by omission. *giggles* Please carry on, this was just very funny to me.

Exactly. Why would a woman who genuinely believes the Fuhrer is a messiah - as many did in the late 1930s - risk her life and reputation for a Jewish husband?

"Yes, I betrayed you, but you have to understand my circumstances" - that's how all traitors talk. Half-loyalty is despised by both friends and enemies.

This is a family of failed species. In a family that wins evolution, one member protects another at all cost.

Yeah... He's literally the only companion that hasn't got a messed up love life. Things are are a little complicated with Mizora and his contract, but he's just your average bachelor. Hence him hitting on Shadowheart and Lae'zel constantly in Act 1.


Did many believe that Adolf was a messiah? Or was he simply talking about empowering the country post-WW1 wherein they were crippled not only by the cost of the war itself, but also shackled by the Treaty of Versailes afterward...

Also, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this statement. Your prior points are all about "Love doesn't exist if someone doesn't give up everything immedietly in favour of their partner" but here you're pointing out that there are individuals who might value their patriotism more than their husband (Whom they love)


This is quite literally your entire scenario with Lae'zel. The one you're complaining about.

You're upset that she's upset when you literally betrayed her.

The fact you don't see this and instead pin the blame on Lae'zel for "Betraying you" when she's invariable upset at you betraying her kind of gives of major narcissist vibes...

Also, my comment hadn't anything to do with betrayal. Just that loyalty and love can make for very difficult decisions, ones that are not to be taken lightly.


And that's what's happening.

The husband, is protecting the wife (And potential children) by sacrificing his own freedom to ensure they are unharmed.

This is actually evolutionary more beneficial than the wife harbouring the fugitive husband and putting both of them (Plus any children) at risk.

It's actually a staple of evolutionary design, with many species having the male sacrifice themselves to protect the females and offspring (It also appears in disaster protocols, where women and children get priority for life boats and the like)

Yes, it was a cult of personality. He was seen as a messiah and father of the nation. Ask those who can speak honestly - many loved him and were willing to die for him.


You constantly replace "sacrifice" with "favor," intentionally or not. Their meanings are different.


I see you're quick to sacrifice a man, so let's flip the roles: he's a prominent top German officer from the early '30s, and his wife is Jewish. What does true love look like – sending her to a concentration camp for glove leather to protect the nation from so-called terrorists who tore apart the beloved country? Or hiding her and risking everything – his career, his friends, his life – and betraying the country he swore to serve?


You cannot betray what you never swore allegiance to. Githyanki mean nothing to Tav. Can you betray China as a US citizen?

I never complained that Lae'zel betrayed me. My issue is with the game designers making her act like a psychotic btch with a complete lack of basic reasoning. "You don't do as I ask – I'll kill you, even if we swore to love each other". That's her entire so-called "deep character" – aggressive, egotistical, and idiotic. I don't find it entertaining to cater to deranged idiots in a computer game – I already encounter enough of that species in real life. After all, I'm the one who bought the game with Lae'zel — not Lae'zel who bought the game with me.


A narcissist eagerly throws labels around, driven by self-imagined moral superiority, while in reality relying on shaky reasoning.

Betrayal doesn't require swearing allegiance, it requires trust. I might be wrong but from what you wrote before, it sounds like you allowed the Emperor to suck out Orpheus's brain while being on the rebellion path with Lae'zel in which she along with Voss and the rebels wants to free her people from Vlaakith, and for which they deem Orpheus necessary. They trust that you free him and if don't but side with the Emperor instead, they are understandably upset. Poor Voss tried to free his friend and prince for how many centuries? I forgot but it was a long term project.


He can join the conversation again when they all discuss their parents.

In my research I've not encountered any notions of him being a messiah. Just that he was orator getting people in a broken nation hyped up.


I do not.

I replace "Sacrifice" with "Give up everything"

Since it better encompasses what is being said. Sacrifice doesn't necessarily mean everything, just that something is given up.


I didn't make any of these up. Go tell nature and the people who made these rules up this.


Concentration camps were not a thing in the early 30's.

Early in the Nazi parties reign, Jews were simply segregated into ghettos. It wasn't until later that concentration camps were set up.

Also in this scenario, the outcomes are exactly the same.

The man can try to put themselves and their partner at risk to hide them (Or defect to another nation, which many people did. It would be easier for him than the average joe given his station as a high ranking officer)

Or the woman can decide she wants to sacrifice her freedom to protect her husband (And potential children)

Both decisions can be made out of love and loyalty to one another.


You "Swore allegiance" to Lae'zel when you initiated romance with her. Your whole "We are in love" shtick is you having an allegience to her.

It is Lae'zel you betrayed. As SHE is someone who does value the Githyanki society.

In your US vs China example it'd be more like:

You are a US citizen. You are in a relationship with someone who is from China. Your partner still likes China and values their country of origin and the peoples that reside there.

You as a US citizen then do something that then provides a massive negative impact to all of China.

Have you betrayed your partner who has a strong allegience to China? (The answer is "Yes")


"I was left with a really bad aftertaste after sparing the Emperor. The Githyanki gave me no help in getting this far, and Lae'zel - despite 100 approval and a completed romance arc - threatening me with death yet again was just too much."

You quite literally are complaining that "Despite 100 approval and a completed romance arc" she was threatening you (AKA betraying the "Loyalty of love" as you went on to talk about)


I mean, you yourself seem to heavily rely on this concept... Being unable to grasp many basic concepts like, how you massively betrayed a character or how integral societal values are to characters.


Uhh... No? That's not what a narcissist does.

Also, I'm not "Eagerly throwing labels around" I'd really rather not, however, you show a distinct lack of empathy and care about others and entirely focus on your own point of view, even going so far as to think a relationship where someone doesn't defer their entire belief system to whatever YOU personally want is somehow "Toxic".

It would likely be beneficial for you to discuss such things with an actual psychologist or therapist, as these are not normal lines of reasoning, it is indicative of extreme narcissim.

Larian is in the end not very good at writing.

Just like the story of BG3 is not very good and falls apart when put under any scrutenie so are the characters in bG3 rather flat once you take away the sex.

What Larian managed to do is to capitalize on BGs fame and cater to the currently booming genre of fan fiction level romantic fantasy. But there is no place for deep characters there.

because it's convenient for your demagogic style of arguing


You are confusing survival mechanisms with love. Replace "man" and "woman" with "partner A" and "partner B".

You quite figuratively put words in my mouth. I'm not complaining about betrayal - I'm saying this isn't what love looks like.

The answer is "No". Love places people above their country, their nation, and their families. Let's say I'm a CIA officer and she's a Chinese spy. If she demands I steal classified documents to save her country - that's manipulation. If my colleagues are about to arrest or possibly kill her and I risk everything to hide her - that's love. If I ask her to become a double agent to help the US fight Xi's regime - that's manipulation. If her mission was to infiltrate, use me to steal documents, and then eliminate me, yet she tells me everything and ends up on China's death list - that's love.

and this is where it became clear that you're not defending your opinion, but rather indulging in moral self-satisfaction

The thread has been Godwinized. That theoretically puts it to an end.

I'll allow it. The personal comments are getting quite close to the line, though. Let's be careful to discuss opinions rather than those who hold them.

I told her "we'll see". I didn't promise her anything. I expected the game to offer more choices beyond “him or him.” I said I was entirely on the Githyanki side and would do everything to help them, but I never ever promised to exchange the life of my most important ally for their Prince. So no, I didn't betray her trust.
Even with Orpheus gone, there were still paths to defeat the Queen that didn’t require killing my allies - and I would've backed them completely. But no - they demanded I do exactly what they said: free Orpheus. That's manipulation. How the hell could I be sure that freeing him would help us defeat the brain, or help overthrow the Queen? And Lae'zel threw another tantrum "I regret not killing you in the camp". Thank you, Lae'zel. Had she killed me at the camp, her pathetic ass would've ended its existence in that brain machine in the Creche. Screw the sunset scene in the Lower City and the 100 approval. Why is she simply incapable of such basic reasoning as a sapient creature?
She'd make a great pitbull-style NPC - aggressive, dumb, and relatively loyal. But as a main companion? Maybe if there were more satisfying GTFO mechanic available throughout the whole game - not just at the beginning - and a wider selection of female companions to choose from, I'd be happy. But with only Karlach not periodically getting on my nerves, I'm not.

Casting "Friends" and canceling it repeatedly is a super efficient GTFO mechanic.

But again, not how trust works. I think you never explicitly say or have to stay that you won't take over the Brain and I feel the companions are still justified in feeling betrayed when you do. Lae'zel probably never told you that she would never threaten you again if you do something incredibly stupid either. You might have noticed she isn't someone to talk things out over tea and biscuits. I mean, I think I understand what you want, but I do get why they react the way they do, so I don't quite understand the outrage - or much of the reasoning.

But I wonder, in the title you wrote about "friend companions" but wrote exclusively about the girls' romances (minus Minthara) so what makes the rest of the gang bad friends? And how can you think this way about Scratch?

In real life, we would know each other's steps years in advance, but that requires hundreds of hours of interaction. The game can't afford such luxury, so instead it uses a simplistic approval scale to replace or "replicate" those long hours of bonding. When I see 100, I assume we've gone through that lengthy process of connection - where you know everything about your partner: all beliefs, motivations, dreams, health issues, past enemies and friends, food preferences, etc... Instead, at 100 approval, the game flips me off and Laezel threatens to kill me. It's like your partner stabbing you in the back after ten years of happy life just because you didn't help her criminal brother escape jail (for example). If the game designers truly wanted unpredictable characters, these approval numbers should be thrown in the garbage. Otherwise, it's nothing but trolling and mockery. And yes, I mostly talk about Laezel - I'm still fuming over that Emperor vs. Orpheus choice. It's just so poorly designed. Just like that binary choice with Shadowheart and Aylin - no middle ground.

Nah, that's metagaming - I don't do that.

their hairy asses