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Just hang out with your bros? You seem to like them, so where's the problem?

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I'll grant that waifu has a wider meaning than what I expected, although widely varying. It's apparently used casually for a fictional character with some attractive personal traits or hobbies (like being good at cooking), all the way to calling your one true soulmate a "waifu". Looking a bit more into it, it has quite a confusing variety of definitions and used vastly different for/by different people. Same as with the term "husbando" for male fictional characters, apparently.

And I'll admit that I know only a little about Fifty Shades of Grey, but what I do know is that it's based severely in a very controlling dom/sub kink section. So it's smut, but smut that was largely normalized through the successful film, apparently. So I don't know if that would fit in the "waifu" definition you're referring to.

And if most gamers expected these waifus in games by the definition you're applying to it, then BG3 would not be as praised as it is for both its general story-writing as well as its romance-specific things, and Shadowheart would not be one of the most popular romance options shown by statistics. BG3 is a very popular game and Shadowheart is well liked. So it's possible that the writing is not to your tastes and that is unfortunate, but your opinions are not fact in this.

Aside from that, despite not liking certain elements of the writing, you still got to a point where you've put 150 hours of your free time in it. I know I certainly wouldn't sink 150 hours into something that was disappointing me, so there must have been enough positives to keep you playing.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
So how do you suggest I can beat the game on Tactician mode without companions? Yes, turning guys into gals is icky as fck, but that's all my options. frown

Have a bunch of dudes in your squad? What's wrong with the original male Wyll, Astarion and Gale? The romance part isn't to everyone's tastes in a bunch of games anyway, so it's not something you have to interact with. I think there are mods that keep everything platonic and make it so that no one makes advances on you. I don't know why, but you seem to be very adamant on having females in your group, but only females that fit into a very specific mold of what the ideal woman would be like for you, and only if you can see yourself potentially romancing this character. Can Wyll, Astarion and Gale only be your true friend companions when they've been turned into females?

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
You have a very wrong understanding of what "waifu" means. A waifu is a woman who loves you unconditionally - just for who you are.

Uh... No.

A waifu is someone's ideal romantic partner. Or more commonly, a character that people have parasocial feelings for.

This doesn't involve unconditional love. It doesn't even involve any kind of interaction with said character such as a video game romance.

Heck, there's the whole litany of "Dere" types that people very much enjoy, that are outright awful and disgusting (Such as Yandere, whereby someone is ridiculously possessive to the point of wanting to or actually murdering anyone else you interact with, or Tsundere where they hide their positive emotions towards you by instead being mean and hurtful towards you). Which are typical traits of many people's "Waifus" and especially popular in anime/manga characters.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Why do you think the author of Fifty Shades of Grey became a multimillionaire? Because Christian Grey is a typical waifu.

1) There are no male waifus. Married men are not wives, hence they're not waifus (Which is a Japanese accented way of saying wife). The male equivalent of a waifu is a husbando (The Japanese accented way of saying husband)

2) Christian Grey is not a husbando. In fact, he's actually an incredibly shitty character and person.

3) Fifty Shades of Grey became popular because it was a mainstream way of exploring the taboo regarding bondage (Which garners a lot of interest in the same way that BG3 got a lot of interest because of the taboo of "Bear Sex")

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
So yes, Larian quite badly failed to deliver male and female waifus in the game.

Given the sheer popularity of Shadowheart, Astarion, Karlach and Lae'zel... I don't think they did.

Just because YOU personally hate Shadowheart and Lae'zel and deem Karlach not attractive enough for your tastes, doesn't mean that Larian failed.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
If I didn't have 150 hours in BG3

I'm very curious how you managed to get to 150 hours and only now suddenly are having issues with characters. How were you going through the game that you had 0 interactions with Lae'zel and Shadowheart? While seemingly not wanting to play with male companions or hirelings?

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
hirelings are freaks with Wither's voice - absolutely out of the question.

Hirelings only have Withers voice if you actively talk to them... Of which there's no purpose of doing outside dismissing them.

When you're normally playing, their generic call outs are made using regular player character voices.

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Originally Posted by Anska
Just hang out with your bros? You seem to like them, so where's the problem?
The problem isn't me and my bros - it's that the game fails to deliver male or female companion characters (in my case, female) who support you no matter what.


Originally Posted by HFA
And I'll admit that I know only a little about Fifty Shades of Grey, but what I do know is that it's based severely in a very controlling dom/sub kink section.
It's just a kinkier version of "Pretty Woman" with Julia Roberts - porn is just spice, not the main ingredient.

Originally Posted by HFA
Have a bunch of dudes in your squad? What's wrong with the original male Wyll, Astarion and Gale?
If I wanted the company of dudes, we'd go fishing, bowling, or just hang out and drink beer. For fantasy adventures I prefer strong heroic waifus.

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Originally Posted by Taril
Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
You have a very wrong understanding of what "waifu" means. A waifu is a woman who loves you unconditionally - just for who you are.
A waifu is someone's ideal romantic partner. Or more commonly, a character that people have parasocial feelings for.
What's the difference from what I described? It's not parasocial — every hikki dreams of having that kind of relationship in real life.


Originally Posted by Taril
This doesn't involve unconditional love.
Ok, call it attraction or desire if you don't like the word "love", what's the differnce? It feels like you're just nitpicking over word choice.


Originally Posted by Taril
1) There are no male waifus. Married men are not wives, hence they're not waifus
Everyone understood me. No point in throwing around pedantic terms when they don't matter.

Originally Posted by Taril
2) Christian Grey is not a husbando. In fact, he's actually an incredibly shitty character and person.
3) Fifty Shades of Grey became popular because it was a mainstream way of exploring the taboo regarding bondage
You missed the original point completely. He's a powerful pos, but she bent him - because he loved her. That's the core fantasy for many women in this story: having a powerful scumbag they can bend and control.

Originally Posted by Taril
Given the sheer popularity of Shadowheart, Astarion, Karlach and Lae'zel... I don't think they did.
Lovable and popular are different things. The whole game is a gem — everything about it is popular. But if you break it down into individual components, not everything is nice and shiny.

Originally Posted by Taril
Just because YOU personally hate Shadowheart and Lae'zel and deem Karlach not attractive enough for your tastes, doesn't mean that Larian failed.
Are you sure you have a background in psychology?

Originally Posted by Taril
I'm very curious how you managed to get to 150 hours and only now suddenly are having issues with characters. How were you going through the game that you had 0 interactions with Lae'zel and Shadowheart? While seemingly not wanting to play with male companions or hirelings?
Huh? My last playthrough was with Lae'zel regretting not killing me at the camp. It took 170 hours. I'm on my fourth playthrough right now

Originally Posted by Taril
Hirelings only have Withers voice if you actively talk to them...
So they do have Withers' voice, right?

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
If I wanted the company of dudes, we'd go fishing, bowling, or just hang out and drink beer. For fantasy adventures I prefer strong heroic waifus.

For many people Shadowheart and/or Lae'zel is in fact that strong, heroic waifu. You're unfortunately in the minority that doesn't like them, but making blanket statements that Larian failed in that regard just seems rather disingenuous when the game is popular and these characters are well liked by the majority.

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Originally Posted by HFA
Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
If I wanted the company of dudes, we'd go fishing, bowling, or just hang out and drink beer. For fantasy adventures I prefer strong heroic waifus.

For many people Shadowheart and/or Lae'zel is in fact that strong, heroic waifu. You're unfortunately in the minority that doesn't like them, but making blanket statements that Larian failed in that regard just seems rather disingenuous when the game is popular and these characters are well liked by the majority.
I never said Larian failed to deliver Lae'zel or Shadowheart's personalities. I said they failed to deliver companions who support you no matter what - aka waifus - and that's something millions of gamers actually want. How much clearer do I need to be? I broke down why I think Lae'zel and Shadowheart don't qualify as waifus. Seven pages in, and people still don't get it.

Originally Posted by HFA
You're unfortunately in the minority that doesn't like them
Everyone is fixated on my feelings while completely ignoring that I back them up with actual arguments. You all just reduce it to "just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't" while I'm out here explaining what's wrong with the characters and why they're unlikable.

Originally Posted by HFA
For many people Shadowheart and/or Lae'zel is in fact that strong, heroic waifu.
There's nothing heroic about them. Absolutely none.

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
What's the difference from what I described? It's not parasocial — every hikki dreams of having that kind of relationship in real life.

That 1) It's not unconditional love 2) It doesn't require the waifu to acknowledge their existence

It is parasocial. Since a fictional character can not have feelings for you. Only one person has feelings and that is the observer of the media.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Ok, call it attraction or desire if you don't like the word "love", what's the differnce? It feels like you're just nitpicking over word choice.

These things are also not required.

Again, people call random anime characters that never interact with them directly, waifus.

Waifu's and Husbando's are not always receptive characters. In fact, they mostly are not.

Making a waifu rarely even has anything to do with writing. Just making a sexy character is enough for people to claim waifu.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Everyone understood me. No point in throwing around pedantic terms when they don't matter.

You're the one that brought up terminology. Complaining about someone elses "Wrong understanding of the term waifu"

When clearly, you have no concept of the meaning of the word in the slightest. You're trying to force its meaning to be this idea you have and then express that this is a very popular idea because of the terms ubiquity.

A waifu is a fictional female character that a person has feelings for. Often romantic or sexual. That is it. There is nothing more to it than that.

There's no semblence of the character being good, having feelings for the person, or even interacting with them in any way, shape or form. They just exist in their media and people will call them waifu if they are attracted to them.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
You missed the original point completely. He's a powerful pos, but she bent him - because he loved her. That's the core fantasy for many women in this story: having a powerful scumbag they can bend and control.

No, you missed the point.

The book was ONLY popular as it was a mainstream insight into a taboo.

As characters, everyone in the book is shit. Even as BDSM writing, the book is shit.

Literally, the ONLY thing it had going for it, was that it became mainstream and much of that was because it touched on a taboo.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Lovable and popular are different things. The whole game is a gem — everything about it is popular. But if you break it down into individual components, not everything is nice and shiny.

People REALLY like these characters. Explicitly so.

You can hand wave "Oh the game is popular" but no, these character in specific are adored.

You can go literally anywhere that discusses the game and find people gushing about how much they love these specific characters and their writing.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Are you sure you have a background in psychology?

Yes.

Though I'm not sure how that relates.

People have individual tastes. Just because you, one individual, dislikes something - Which you yourself have said that your personal opinions are a minority opinion, doesn't mean that the company failed in writing characters, when most of the characters (Basically everyone besides Wyll and Halsin) are very much well received.

I mean, personally, I really hate how Gale and Astarion are written. But again, these are still very popular characters. With Astarion being so popular that these official forums have had to do futher moderation because almost every thread was being derailed with people gushing about Astarion.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Huh? My last playthrough was with Lae'zel regretting not killing me at the camp. It took 170 hours. I'm on my fourth playthrough right now

I still don't get how you've gone so far and only NOW are actually getting to see any interactions with Lae'zel or Shadowheart.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
So they do have Withers' voice, right?

Only if you literally go up to them and talk with them. For which there is no reason to as they don't have any unique dialogue or interactions.

If you simply play the game with them, they use regular player character voices not Withers voice. Meaning you can play through the entire game with just Hirelings and never hear Withers voice from them at all even a single time.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Everyone is fixated on my feelings while completely ignoring that I back them up with actual arguments. You all just reduce it to "just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't" while I'm out here explaining what's wrong with the characters and why they're unlikable.

That's because your "Arguments" are "I don't like them because they don't fit my personal tastes, therefore they're bad characters and Larian sucks and can't make any characters and I hate them"

Meanwhile, many people like these characters.

They like that Lae'zel is combative. It fits her character because she's a Gith. You then throw out some nonsense arguments about "Modern Personalities" but no, she's Gith. She's a magical alien race. She happens to be consistent with all established lore regarding the magical alien race. Which is that they're extremely savage and xenophobic. Lae'zel is different to most Gith in that she's naturally kinder and more caring. This creates an interesting dynamic where her nature to want to care is constantly battling against the brutal upbringing she had and the expectations of the society of her race.

They like that Shadowheart is bitchy. It fits her character because she was captured by Sharrans at a young age and had her mind wiped and was indoctrinated into being a Shar worshipper. They also like that you can take her on a journey to rediscover her true Selunite identity as well as all the little things where her true identity peeks through the indoctrination. She is a troubled soul, one who was taken from her family to be part of a cult and literally brainwashed into serving the cult.

These are deep and well written characters. They go through development as their world view gets utterly shattered by events in the game. Lae'zel finding out the betrayal of Vlaakith and the lies perpetuated by her about ascension and Orpheus. Shadowheart confronting Nightsong and betraying Shar who then abandons her undoing some of the grasp of her indoctrination.

You just keep throwing out more strawman arguments like, "They have modern personalities" "They remind me of unpleasant people IRL" "They're poorly written" "They're not (My completely distorted meaning of) waifus"

With the most egregious thing being that characters you actually seem to like (Gale, Astarion and Wyll) have exactly the same writing you're critisising Lae'zel and Shadowheart for (With Astarion being oftentimes worse). But these are apparently good because you modded them to be sexy genderbent versions you are attracted to.

Meaning that apparently the litmus test for any game's character writing is... Whether or not YOU specifically deem the character to be visually attractive or not.

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Everyone is fixated on my feelings while completely ignoring that I back them up with actual arguments. You all just reduce it to "just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't" while I'm out here explaining what's wrong with the characters and why they're unlikable.

I provided several arguments in other posts and also a five paragraph accounting of my experience with Shadowheart in my first first playthrough providing arguments and motivations, you just either didn't read these things or chose to ignore it because they're not in line with your own opinion. I literally quoted you saying that no one explains why they like them based on their emotions and then provided an answer why I like Shadowheart based on my emotions when playing through the game.

Concerning the rest, I'd mostly just be echoing Taril at this point, so I'll just say I agree with pretty much everything he said.

When it comes to specific companions, I'm less negative about Astarion and Gale. A main point of critique for me is probably how Wyll doesn't have a Nightsong point system of sorts that allows him to choose on his own whether or not he prioritizes his dad or his soul. I find that if you save his soul and then find and save his dad, he does have agency whether or not he stays under his dad's wing or become the Blade of Avernus, but with the biggest choice of his quest, it's a very weird writing choice that he's not able to decide for himself. It's also rather game-breaking narratively that if you go straight from the coronation to the Iron Throne you will find Ravengard dead in his cell, but if you have a Long Rest and Mizora's contract choice, Ravengard will then be alive in the Iron Throne if you choose to save Wyll's soul. It makes zero sense the way things are currently set up chronologically. Aside from that, I do like Wyll even if I find him a little preachy and a bit holier-than-thou.

Also, Karlach's act 3 part of the story feels largely unfinished. Depending on choices, Dammon will be in act 3. You will also continue to find infernal iron and even enriched infernal iron. Enriched infernal iron in particular is an item that seems like it should have had a special use considering Karlach's earlier quest steps and Dammon's interest in infernal materials to forge stuff with, but it's entirely useless. Her character arc is tragic, but with the things available to you in act 3 it feels as if her engine should have been fixable as long you kept Dammon alive and found the necessary materials in the Steel Watch Foundry.

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Originally Posted by Taril
Again, people call random anime characters that never interact with them directly, waifus.
Making a waifu rarely even has anything to do with writing. Just making a sexy character is enough for people to claim waifu.
But think about it - why do they call them "waifu"'? Maybe it's because of the expected set of traits, right? What trait is that?

Originally Posted by Taril
You're the one that brought up terminology. Complaining about someone elses "Wrong understanding of the term waifu"
Of course I brought up the terminology, because for him, a "waifu" refers to a sex doll from a porn game. And you, on the other hand, are just nitpicking words for no real reason.

Originally Posted by Taril
When clearly, you have no concept of the meaning of the word in the slightest. You're trying to force its meaning to be this idea you have and then express that this is a very popular idea because of the terms ubiquity.
You're the one stretching the meaning, not me. I used the term to shorten and simplify long descriptive writing, and it's obviously clear what "waifu" means in this context - which is more than enough for the current purpose. We're not at a chemistry naming symposium, after all.


Originally Posted by Taril
No, you missed the point.
ask a woman what it's about, not chatGPT


Originally Posted by Taril
People REALLY like these characters. Explicitly so.
I like Laezel too. She's an amazing character. Never argued that. A terrible romantic companion though - looks like a ghoulish frog, puts her people uber alles, and never discards the possibility of killing you if needed.

Originally Posted by Taril
Just because you, one individual, dislikes something
So either you're intentionally reducing my arguments to the opinion of a one-of-a-kind individual to make it seem insignificant, or your background in psychology is as solid as mine in quantum physics.


Originally Posted by Taril
I mean, personally, I really hate how Gale and Astarion are written.
Start a topic about ideas for a male companion you'd like to see and justify it. Maybe Larian will add it to the next game if they find it interesting - and thousands (or even millions) of other Tarils will be happy.


Originally Posted by Taril
They like that Lae'zel is combative. It fits her character because she's a Gith. You then throw out some nonsense arguments about "Modern Personalities" but no, she's Gith. She's a magical alien race. She happens to be consistent with all established lore regarding the magical alien race.
You're skimming, right? Should I paste my earlier quote where I said only Shadowheart doesn't fit the fantasy world because she's too girly for a battle cleric? She acts within the paradigm of "men are buyers, women are sellers - men chase, women get chased". That's how relationships work in the contemporary world. You can't transplant that into a fantasy world with female warriors who are equal in everything to male warriors. It simply turns the whole world into Comic Con. That's why I called Shadowheart a "streamer".


And I think I'm done arguing with you, because you're clearly trying to get self-satisfaction from winning an argument with someone you disagree with - which I'm not willing to waste my time on

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Originally Posted by HFA
I provided several arguments in other posts and also a five paragraph accounting of my experience with Shadowheart in my first first playthrough providing arguments and motivations, you just either didn't read these things or chose to ignore it
I didn't ignore them - I respect your opinion and simply had nothing to add. Nevertheless I'm still doing my best to understand why you all believe Shadowheart qualifies as a companion who supports you no matter what.


Originally Posted by HFA
Also, Karlach's act 3 part of the story feels largely unfinished. Depending on choices, Dammon will be in act 3. You will also continue to find infernal iron and even enriched infernal iron.
Yeah, I was so happy when I found enriched iron. Had the writers not doomed Karlach, this entire thread wouldn't even exist.

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Originally Posted by Taril
You're the one that brought up terminology. Complaining about someone elses "Wrong understanding of the term waifu"
Of course I brought up the terminology, because for him, a "waifu" refers to a sex doll from a porn game. And you, on the other hand, are just nitpicking words for no real reason.

Originally Posted by Taril
When clearly, you have no concept of the meaning of the word in the slightest. You're trying to force its meaning to be this idea you have and then express that this is a very popular idea because of the terms ubiquity.
You're the one stretching the meaning, not me. I used the term to shorten and simplify long descriptive writing, and it's obviously clear what "waifu" means in this context - which is more than enough for the current purpose. We're not at a chemistry naming symposium, after all.

I'll chime in here as it started with my interpretation of "waifu" being different than yours. I guess at this point we can agree that adding the term "waifu" simply wasn't helpful and leave it at that. The definition wasn't clear for me and still isn't after looking it up, it's simply used too haphazardly and could refer to a person you think looks nice and would consider dating all the way a person you'd see as your soulmate. So at the very least we can say that it's clearly not clear what "waifu" was in this context.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
I didn't ignore them - I respect your opinion and simply had nothing to add. Nevertheless I'm still doing my best to understand why you all believe Shadowheart qualifies as a companion who supports you no matter what.

Alright, figured I'd mention because I felt included when you said "everyone" earlier. I can't elaborate further on Shadowheart, I've touched on characters (all of the BG3 ones, and also the DA:O ones you have mentioned) having deal-breakers and that it seems healthy to me and I also think it makes them feel more multidimensional and alive. For Shadowheart there is exactly one deal-breaker, not giving her space to think on the decision on what to do with Nightsong. Before and after that, she's amenable to doing whatever you choose to do as Tav or Durge throughout the story and supports you no matter what on either her DJ or her Selunite path.

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Quote
She acts within the paradigm of "men are buyers, women are sellers - men chase, women get chased". That's how relationships work in the contemporary world. You can't transplant that into a fantasy world with female warriors who are equal in everything to male warriors.

1) There are waifus like that
2) Shadowheart is actually the one that initiates the romance, not you. So she "chased" you.
3) It does fit fantasy worlds and it's more common than you think in all kinds of media.
It's telling how you are not able to reconcile the fact that Morrigan was the most popular romance for straight guys in DAO

Your arguments there have no substance and makes no sense. You made up rules in your head on how it should be that media wasn't trying to follow in the first place. If all female characters were as you suggest, they'd be seen as soulless dolls, carbon copies of eachother - nobody wants that. People want depth, character development and relationship building with RPGs like this.

Do you think Morrigan is also a "streamer" ?

Quote
- it's that the game fails to deliver male or female companion characters (in my case, female) who support you no matter what.

Is that how it works? You think it should be one sided and you shouldnt need to support them "no matter what" ?

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
But think about it - why do they call them "waifu"'? Maybe it's because of the expected set of traits, right? What trait is that?

Because it's a meme term?

It's Japanese accented "Wife". Why?

Because it originates from anime culture which is predominantly Japanese.

Wherein, there is a culture of forming unnaturally strong feelings for fictional characters. With the connotation being that you go so far as to buy body pillows of your "Waifu" and take them on dates and have sex with them.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
You're the one stretching the meaning, not me. I used the term to shorten and simplify long descriptive writing, and it's obviously clear what "waifu" means in this context - which is more than enough for the current purpose. We're not at a chemistry naming symposium, after all.

You're the only one stretching the meaning.

Since you are apparently unaware of what it actually means.

It is not "Obviously clear what 'waifu' means in this context" because you're using it wrong. A waifu is literally any female character that someone is attracted to in some way. That is how the term is used, that is how the term originated.

It is not, nor ever has had any connotation to someone liking YOU in any capacity. Be it attraction, love, affection or anything. It is simply "I like this character romantically/sexually"

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
ask a woman what it's about, not chatGPT

I never have, nor ever will use ChatGPT.

I also have asked women what it's about. Including plenty of women who write and/or read BDSM fiction. As well as men who write and/or read BDSM fiction. As well as people who write books in general.

I have a good understanding of what it is about. Including why it is successful despite being poorly written in every way.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
So either you're intentionally reducing my arguments to the opinion of a one-of-a-kind individual to make it seem insignificant, or your background in psychology is as solid as mine in quantum physics.

So are you now claiming that you're not a one individual? That you are some sort of hivemind combined of multiple personalities?

Your arguments are derived entirely from your own opinion. You brought up things like how they "Remind you of people you met in real life" which is something that would be unique to you as most other people in the world have not met those people.

You state your opinion like it is objective fact and that anyone who has a different opinion is either "Wrong" or you simply ignore other viewpoints.

Many people like these characters. This is an objective fact. You can easily find such things for yourself by browsing any site (Including these forums) to see that.

Claiming that they are "Unlikable" is utter nonsense. Just like if all these people tried to claim that it is impossible to dislike these characters would be spouting utter nonsense.

You can have an opinion. You can put forth your opinion. But the moment you start to claim that your opinion is objectively correct is when the problems arise.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Start a topic about ideas for a male companion you'd like to see and justify it. Maybe Larian will add it to the next game if they find it interesting - and thousands (or even millions) of other Tarils will be happy.

Or... I can be a grown up and accept that part of good writing is that not everyone will like every character. I don't like these characters, and that is fine. I just move on. I'm not going to go on a tyrade about how Larian sucks at writing characters because there are 2 characters I don't like (One of which I know many other people like).

I have provided some feedback about why I dislike these characters. I.e. My issue with Gale is the disconnect between how he acts and how his background portrays him. During gameplay he's written as a nice and likable guy. But his background is that of a huge douche who prioritized his lust for power over his relationship, because he was too arrogant to accept that "Parts of the weave are not meant for mortals". While my issue with Astarion is that he's just plain unlikable, he's written as chaotic evil but without much nuance (Supposedly he gets better after you romance him, but then it also gets much worse if he ascends...)

But really, it's fine if they don't even consider it and write more Astarions and Gales. So long as I'm not stuck having to like them, then it's no problem. I'll just not like them and move on, to characters I might actually like.


Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
You're skimming, right? Should I paste my earlier quote where I said only Shadowheart doesn't fit the fantasy world because she's too girly for a battle cleric? She acts within the paradigm of "men are buyers, women are sellers - men chase, women get chased". That's how relationships work in the contemporary world. You can't transplant that into a fantasy world with female warriors who are equal in everything to male warriors. It simply turns the whole world into Comic Con. That's why I called Shadowheart a "streamer".

Don't worry, I got you:
Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
That's amazing. I'd probably feel the same if I hadn't met one Lae'zel and two Shadowhearts in real life - and it never ended well.

Oh wait... Apparently Lae'zel is included in your "People you met in real life"

Seemingly, a literal alien raised in a pocket dimension is the type of person you can meet in real life... And having done so has affected your view of her.

But that's right, according to you, the culture that someone is raised in has no bearing on their personality and values:

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Lae'zel may not exist in the real world, but I do. Belonging to a different culture doesn't grant anyone the right to threaten their loved ones with death. Even "killing machines" can show kindness and care to those they truly value. I don't understand why people enjoy this kind of toxicity, it's more of a sadistic femdom fetish than a healthy expression of love.

Meanwhile, Shadowheart is "Too girly" (Somehow... Lae'zel is the only character that brings up any actual "Girly" facets, when she admires Shadowhearts hair and asks if she can be taught how to do it herself). Then something to do with gender equality meaning that typical roles are no longer a thing (Which already isn't true for real life, where men and women are equal in most cases and still men are expected to initiate romances, as well as being the ones to propose marriage - Like literally most women will drop hints on what engagement rings they want bought for them rather than actually propose themselves).

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Originally Posted by HFA
I'll chime in here as it started with my interpretation of "waifu" being different than yours.
This isn't about differing interpretations - you narrowed it down so much that it completely distorted the picture, making it look like I was asking for a harem sex doll game. That's like saying "If you want a game with elephants, go play one with snakes" just because elephant trunks resemble snakes. So I had to clarify that this is not what "waifu" means - just as elephants are not snakes.


Originally Posted by HFA
I guess at this point we can agree that adding the term "waifu" simply wasn't helpful and leave it at that. The definition wasn't clear for me and still isn't after looking it up, it's simply used too haphazardly and could refer to a person you think looks nice and would consider dating all the way a person you'd see as your soulmate. So at the very least we can say that it's clearly not clear what "waifu" was in this context.
What source are you using that makes this unclear? It's absolutely clear that "waifu" refers to an idealized romantic partner. What else could it possibly mean - honestly?

Originally Posted by HFA
I can't elaborate further on Shadowheart
Agreed - I'm tired of focusing on her too. She was never the main point of this thread. To me, Shadowheart comes off as a spoiled, arrogant, egocentric wannabe princess and a LARPer. There are already plenty of discussions out there, including right here on this forum https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=735973 . Anyone interested can google for more opinions.

Originally Posted by HFA
So are you now claiming that you're not a one individual? That you are some sort of hivemind combined of multiple personalities?
Nice try. Ever thought about a more productive route to moral self-pleasing? Like, say, learning what "Inductive Generalization" means?

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
This isn't about differing interpretations - you narrowed it down so much that it completely distorted the picture, making it look like I was asking for a harem sex doll game. That's like saying "If you want a game with elephants, go play one with snakes" just because elephant trunks resemble snakes. So I had to clarify that this is not what "waifu" means - just as elephants are not snakes.

You'll find I said "started" and I've also stated that my initial understanding of the definition was too narrow. It's also very much clear that your definition is also too narrow and personal, so it's simply an unclear term in this context.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
What source are you using that makes this unclear? It's absolutely clear that "waifu" refers to an idealized romantic partner. What else could it possibly mean - honestly?

I've stated the various definitions and Taril also mentioned it more clearly a few times now. I just went through a search engine and found various dictionaries and forum threads where that term is used in many different ways and with a wide variety of uses like I described earlier.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Agreed - I'm tired of focusing on her too. She was never the main point of this thread. To me, Shadowheart comes off as a spoiled, arrogant, egocentric wannabe princess and a LARPer. There are already plenty of discussions out there, including right here on this forum https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=735973 . Anyone interested can google for more opinions.

Had a quick look at the thread, aside from it being 4 years old and there being plenty of writing adjustments since then, at least on the first page no one agrees with the poster. A similar positive sentiment about Shadowheart seen here is shared on the first page of that thread as well and in the OP's very first reply he partially admits he is baiting for a response.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Originally Posted by HFA
So are you now claiming that you're not a one individual? That you are some sort of hivemind combined of multiple personalities?
Nice try. Ever thought about a more productive route to moral self-pleasing? Like, say, learning what "Inductive Generalization" means?

That wasn't me, but I can respond. Inductive generalization requires a sample size to be statistically significant to be able to make a broad conclusion on a subject. You have already said your opinion is in the minority and the thread you linked also showed that the OP there was in the minority, so the sample size would be too small to apply inductive generalization. In fact, the statistics mentioned on the popularity of the characters and their romance routes, as well as the mentioned awards for BG3 for the writing, could be considered as strong enough sample sizes to apply inductive generalization.

More importantly though, the original point of Taril from what I can read is that personal opinions were being stated as facts and that's simply incorrect. Applying inductive generalization to an opinion, even when you can find a strong enough sample size to back that opinion up and make broader generalizations based on that opinion, will never make an opinion a fact. Taril illustrated that and also mentions how his personal opinion of Astarion and Gale for example doesn't actually affect the quality of writing of Larian and their characters, it purely affects how much he personally dislikes them as characters in the game.

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Should I paste my earlier quote where I said only Shadowheart doesn't fit the fantasy world because she's too girly for a battle cleric? She acts within the paradigm of "men are buyers, women are sellers - men chase, women get chased". That's how relationships work in the contemporary world. You can't transplant that into a fantasy world with female warriors who are equal in everything to male warriors.

The behaviour you call contemporary is anything but. It's routed in inequality and the second part in not being allowed to voice your desires for fear of being chastised. Which is also what is going on in Shadowheart's case. She loves nature, animals and wants close connections but her Sharran "upbringing" and the wound on her hand tell her to abstain from these things. So when you start her romance (which you haven't? I am not sure.) she might give whiplash through her very warm greetings while taking a more reserved stance when you want to talk to her about the relationship. I am not her greatest fan, she is too sweet for me and I am not into nature vs. nurture plots which lean this heavily on the nature side, but I also don't see a problem in how her story is conveyed. There is something off with her and you are supposed to recognise that there is something off with her.

I feel like the main issue here is that you never say what you do like about the characters. Karlach seemed to have been ok (apart from her looks not being to your liking and not wanting to go to Avernus with her), Bae'zel seems to have been ok (apart from being a frogprincess and not liking a decision you made) but you never state what you liked about them apart from how closely they match your ideal of a female character whom you can make to agree to all of your decisions. Is that all you like about or want from a romances?

For me that is a little sad because at least UA!Astarion, Gale and Lae'zel's romances place a heavy emphasis on partnership, equal partnership, which implies mutual trust and understanding of your love interest. Personally I like romance to be an important impetus to move my own character's plot forward, which is why I do love Astarion & Gale's romances. Gale's is (and probably will remain) my fav though because how heavily it is based in friendship, and how you can help him overcome the common wizard problem (all the wizard characters and Lenore- apart from Elminster - have the same issue that they want their lives to mean something, which for them means fame and recognition through their magic) and he can have a meaningful life without the need for some bombastic magical deed - like godhood or exploding. I am very fond of teacher Gale endeavouring to keep his students a bit grounded, it's such a good conclusion to his arc. To keep it short and maybe a bit vague - I am not sure if the thread has moved on from discussing Lae'zel and Shadowheart to discussing everyone.

@HFA
I haven't forgotten about talking to you about Tara. I'll come to it later.

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Originally Posted by HFA
You'll find I said "started" and I've also stated that my initial understanding of the definition was too narrow. It's also very much clear that your definition is also too narrow and personal, so it's simply an unclear term in this context.

I've stated the various definitions and Taril also mentioned it more clearly a few times now. I just went through a search engine and found various dictionaries and forum threads where that term is used in many different ways and with a wide variety of uses like I described earlier.

There's nothing personal about defining a waifu as a non-existent partner who unconditionally loves, desires, or is attracted to the main character. Nothing personal at all. I don't see the point of using an overly broad definition of the term when I'm only interested in a single aspect of it for my argument.
Think of it like this: I say "If we need to reach the North Pole, we should take a plane to fly across the ocean". Then you respond "That vehicle where people sit in chairs one after another in two rows? We'll never reach the North Pole on a bus" So I reply that you incorrectly understand what plane means. Then you and Taril argue that people also eat, sleep, and use the bathroom on planes - so claiming that planes fly over oceans is just my personal, narrow definition. But I don't care about what else planes do. I'm talking about the concept of reaching the North Pole - that's it. And I define a plane as the means best suited for that purpose. Abstract thinking, you know? Same with waifu - I don't care about the million other things people associate with the term. I want one specific trait - unconditional loyalty. No porn. No fanservice. Just a female companion with pure, unwavering devotion - or simply a "waifu" for fck's sake, to avoid writing a hundred descriptive words.


Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Agreed - I'm tired of focusing on her too. She was never the main point of this thread. To me, Shadowheart comes off as a spoiled, arrogant, egocentric wannabe princess and a LARPer. There are already plenty of discussions out there, including right here on this forum https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=735973 . Anyone interested can google for more opinions.

Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
Had a quick look at the thread, aside from it being 4 years old and there being plenty of writing adjustments since then, at least on the first page no one agrees with the poster. A similar positive sentiment about Shadowheart seen here is shared on the first page of that thread as well and in the OP's very first reply he partially admits he is baiting for a response.
I did not share that link to prove Shadowheart is a failure. It was just a redirect for anyone who wants to keep digging into the topic and is interested in opinions besides mine. Like I said many times, the issue is not that Shadowheart's personality exists in the game. The issue is that she is the only human female companion you can have.That is a huge issue for some gamers.

Originally Posted by HFA
That wasn't me, but I can respond. Inductive generalization requires a sample size to be statistically significant to be able to make a broad conclusion on a subject.

It does not matter what inductive generalization requires to be considered correct. What matters is that inductive generalization exists. What do you expect me to do - gather a thousand people and convince them to join this thread just to support my opinion? Fine, then you and Taril can go find another thousand who will argue with my thousand that Shadowheart is a great character. Don't you find that absurd?

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Originally Posted by Anska
The behaviour you call contemporary is anything but. It's routed in inequality and the second part in not being allowed to voice your desires for fear of being chastised. Which is also what is going on in Shadowheart's case. She loves nature, animals and wants close connections but her Sharran "upbringing" and the wound on her hand tell her to abstain from these things.
Tell me honestly - would you date a drug-addicted, abusive, aggressive guy? Or any other personality you find repulsive. You'll probably guess where this question is heading - but answer honestly anyway.

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Originally Posted by Djoperdjo
There's nothing personal about defining a waifu as a non-existent partner who unconditionally loves, desires, or is attracted to the main character. Nothing personal at all. I don't see the point of using an overly broad definition of the term when I'm only interested in a single aspect of it for my argument.
Think of it like this: I say "If we need to reach the North Pole, we should take a plane to fly across the ocean". Then you respond "That vehicle where people sit in chairs one after another in two rows? We'll never reach the North Pole on a bus" So I reply that you incorrectly understand what plane means. Then you and Taril argue that people also eat, sleep, and use the bathroom on planes - so claiming that planes fly over oceans is just my personal, narrow definition. But I don't care about what else planes do. I'm talking about the concept of reaching the North Pole - that's it. And I define a plane as the means best suited for that purpose. Abstract thinking, you know? Same with waifu - I don't care about the million other things people associate with the term. I want one specific trait - unconditional loyalty. No porn. No fanservice. Just a female companion with pure, unwavering devotion - or simply a "waifu" for fck's sake, to avoid writing a hundred descriptive words.

Except the issue with that is the VAST majority of uses have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with your one specific definition.

To the point where the actual basis for the term has no regard for them whatsoever.

Meaning you are adjusting the basic and most understood meaning of the word to mean your personal version of what the word means and then assuming that everyone will simply understand that context, despite how niche and obscure using the term in this way actually is.

It's like saying:

"I would like a car"

Everyone would think you mean some form of automobile for personal transport on a road and then going:

"NOOOO I mean a train car, a vessel for transporting passengers or goods on a rail system that is powered by a train, gosh it's SO obvious and very clear I meant this very specific definition and nothing else"

Also... You manage to sum up your meaning in a whopping 7 words. "A female companion with pure, unwavering devotion"

How is that "Writing a hundred descriptive words" and necessitate the use of an niche and obscure meaning of a word as replacement? I suppose you can throw in "That I find personally attractive" for an extra 5 words and to show why Karlach doesn't count. Still... Hardly "A hundred descriptive words" and it avoids any confusion with general meanings of terminology.

IF you still wanted to use some abbreviation you could simply use the term "Wife Material" which is more inline with your usage of "Waifu" as it is specifically about someone who is considered ideal to be ones wife and has absolutely no connections towards sexual desire and is purely about "I would like a long term relationship with that person"

Of course, with this being more generic, the statement that 'Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Karlach are not "Wife Material"' is still not true, as many people do find these characters to be suitable for their personal definitions of "Wife Material" - Hence why actually explaining your personal view of what you want a character to be works better for your statement, saying "Shadowheart and Lae'zel do not show pure, unwavering devotion" is factual and not an opinion. That you think this fact is a problem, is then an opinion backed by facts.

People may then disagree with your opinion, but they cannot disagree with the basis for it as the basis is fact. As opposed to terms like "Waifu" and "Wife Material" which are exclusively determined by subjective opinions and thus can never be fact.

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