I'm hoping that Larian return to the ARPG format seen in Divinity 2: The Dragon Knight Saga (not to be confused with Original Sin 2 for newcomers to the series) together with the ability to either turn into a dragon or ride one as games like that are lacking. Divinity 2 had this but there was a major drawback; ground enemies disappeared when taking dragon form. An old game, Drakan: Order of the Flame and it's PS2 sequel Drakan: The Ancient's Gates were perfect examples of dragon combat games.
I hope this game is a continuation of the story seen in Divinity 2 even if it's set decades after. We didn't know what happened to Damien in the end nor the fate of the Patriarch - did he get killed by the poison gas? I doubt it. But it would be epic if the dragonknight and / or the Patriarch brought the dragon race back for this new game.
Last edited by Arokh; 13/12/2512:20 PM.
By fire and by blood I join with thee in the Order of the Flame!
I think if the game will be brutal like dark souls but with faster combat. If that is the case sort of hoping for maybe something cool like the kensai in bg1-2. I am think alot of people I spoke to are not too fond of turn based combat.
I'm hoping that Larian return to the ARPG format seen in Divinity 2: The Dragon Knight Saga (not to be confused with Original Sin 2 for newcomers to the series) together with the ability to either turn into a dragon or ride one as games like that are lacking. Divinity 2 had this but there was a major drawback; ground enemies disappeared when taking dragon form. An old game, Drakan: Order of the Flame and it's PS2 sequel Drakan: The Ancient's Gates were perfect examples of dragon combat games.
I hope this game is a continuation of the story seen in Divinity 2 even if it's set decades after. We didn't know what happened to Damien in the end nor the fate of the Patriarch - did he get killed by the poison gas? I doubt it. But it would be epic if the dragonknight and / or the Patriarch brought the dragon race back for this new game.
Same here, been waiting for Divinity (3?) for a loooong time. Third person like Dragon Knight Saga is the Divinity sequel I'd like to see.
Personally, I'd probably err towards wanting a TB CRPG. I do like me some strategic combat.
ARPG could be fine though, depends a lot on the implementation.
It's very easy to mess up ARPG combat and have it just not feel very good. For example, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was pretty good in how abilities felt as they were chonky and impactful but balance turned everything into a mess. Dragon Age: Inquisition and Dragon Age: Wokeguard both felt horrible, at best they were floaty and imprecise and at worst they had just awful mechanics (Like Wokeguard's lame colour coded health bars related to your three attack buttons...)
But we'll see. The distinction that this "Isn't an Original Sin title" suggests it might be ARPG. Though, Larian have made much of their name off of the popularity of their CRPG's - Both Original Sin and BG3.
Wouldn't be another RPG heavy hitter trying to grow ever larger if Larian opted out of that. Can't break that rule. ;-) See also:
Origin's Ultima 1-7 -> Ultima 8 Westwood's Eye Of The Beholder/Lands Of Lore -> Lands Of Lore 2+3 Bioware -> Anything post BG/NWN Bethesda -> Anything post Morrowind and prior also Redguard + Battlespire Square Enix -> any modern FF
Why risk Larian's most genius and perfected gameplay system ever? Too huge a risk, imo.... and unnecessary given the success their turn-based gameplay has brought them. I would Definitely keep the turn-based gameplay just like with DOS2 and BG3.
Also, just bc it's not called "original sin".... this does not indicate any type of gameplay system change in any direction either way.
Buuuuuut...... what if Larian pulls an Owlcat and ALSO implements real time w pause? Ot maybe they will implement something a la Clair Obscure? That'd be something interesting..... and they got the talent for it.
Personally, I'd probably err towards wanting a TB CRPG. I do like me some strategic combat.
ARPG could be fine though, depends a lot on the implementation.
It's very easy to mess up ARPG combat and have it just not feel very good. For example, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was pretty good in how abilities felt as they were chonky and impactful but balance turned everything into a mess. Dragon Age: Inquisition and Dragon Age: Wokeguard both felt horrible, at best they were floaty and imprecise and at worst they had just awful mechanics (Like Wokeguard's lame colour coded health bars related to your three attack buttons...)
But we'll see. The distinction that this "Isn't an Original Sin title" suggests it might be ARPG. Though, Larian have made much of their name off of the popularity of their CRPG's - Both Original Sin and BG3.
Agreed. Why risk it all and go against the gameplay system that brought Larian their success in the industry? It would be a bit reckless, imo.
Why risk Larian's most genius and perfected gameplay system ever? Too huge a risk, imo.... and unnecessary given the success their turn-based gameplay has brought them.
Well, this is Larian we're talking about. They have gone on record saying that burnout is a thing.
I could see them wanting to mix things up with a different genre after BG3 (And both Original Sin titles).
Also with the money they made with BG3 and their second game being made at the same time, I don't think there's too much "Risk" for them.
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
Also, just bc it's not called "original sin".... this does not indicate any type of gameplay system change in any direction either way.
Actually it can. Prior to them doing Original Sin, they made ARPG Divinity games. Only "Original Sin" Divinity titles have been CRPG's, this quite literally already marks a change in genre.
With the statements they've made in regards to "Familiar, but different" and "Not Original Sin" this is suggestive of a return to their ARPG roots.
Why risk Larian's most genius and perfected gameplay system ever? Too huge a risk, imo.... and unnecessary given the success their turn-based gameplay has brought them.
Well, this is Larian we're talking about. They have gone on record saying that burnout is a thing.
I could see them wanting to mix things up with a different genre after BG3 (And both Original Sin titles).
Also with the money they made with BG3 and their second game being made at the same time, I don't think there's too much "Risk" for them.
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
Also, just bc it's not called "original sin".... this does not indicate any type of gameplay system change in any direction either way.
Actually it can. Prior to them doing Original Sin, they made ARPG Divinity games. Only "Original Sin" Divinity titles have been CRPG's, this quite literally already marks a change in genre.
With the statements they've made in regards to "Familiar, but different" and "Not Original Sin" this is suggestive of a return to their ARPG roots.
I have to respectfully disagree with this logic. Again, risk assessment. If anything Larian could add some things that can be implemented or added into their already winning formula (like a real time w pause, or active turn base, or Clair Obscure style). But a complete change in gameplay? That could divide the established fanbase, or come out wrong if badly implemented, or extend the development cycle too much bc of the overhaul....
I have to respectfully disagree with this logic. Again, risk assessment. If anything Larian could add some things that can be implemented or added into their already winning formula (like a real time w pause, or active turn base, or Clair Obscure style). But a complete change in gameplay? That could divide the established fanbase, or come out wrong if badly implemented, or extend the development cycle too much bc of the overhaul....
Again, they've literally already done a genre switch. For the Divinity series itself no less.
Quite literally they've already divided the Divinity playerbase. Going BACK to ARPG is not brand new territory for them, nor is it newly alienating to their fans, as some of the playerbase are already fans of the old ARPG style of Divinity game (Hence this thread existing in the first place)
Though either way any actuall discussion about it is moot. If they've got as far as making a reveal trailer, they've already settled on what genre the game is going to be and likely have made some headway into actually making it.
We'll just have to wait and see what they decided, as it's not clear from a cinematic reveal trailer alone anything about it.
Taril.... that genre switch was never desired by Larian. They've ALWAYS wanted to make turn-based crpgs (always), but industry pressures forced them to go the route of ARPGs. And it was NEVER successful. In fact, it wasn't until Original Sin, when they achieved their first tru, incontrovertible Hit.
And the overwhelming majority of Larian's fanbase would want an evolution of DOS2 and BG3, not an overhaul.
So, I think you're being unrealistic in what you think is possible, that's all. And again, I have to mention the huge risk factor involved in an overhaul as massive as the one you suggest..... especially when they're at the top like this.
Lemme ask you: if you were in their shoes, would YOU take that kind of risk?
I'm personally all in favor of tactical turn-based combat. I would take any other alternative as a disappointment, not to mention I would frankly have some reservation about Larian's ability to pull it off. Not because I think particularly poorly of them, but because very few seem to be able to (CDPR with the Witcher series has yet to come up with a genuinely good combat system, for instance).
I wouldn't be surprised, on the other hand, if their next step in ramping up the production value would result in having exploration in a more cinematic third person camera (think of Mass Effect, Gothic, Tomb Raider, Witcher and a million other) only to swap to tactical combat when it comes to manage fights.
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Taril.... that genre switch was never desired by Larian. They've ALWAYS wanted to make turn-based crpgs (always), but industry pressures forced them to go the route of ARPGs. And it was NEVER successful. In fact, it wasn't until Original Sin, when they achieved their first tru, incontrovertible Hit.
Which is why Original Sin games almost sank the company...
Oh wait...
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
And the overwhelming majority of Larian's fanbase would want an evolution of DOS2 and BG3, not an overhaul.
On the contrary, a VERY large portion of BG3 fans are not fans of turn based games.
It's seen a lot that people mention that they like BG3 DESPITE it being a CRPG, a genre they have no interest in at all.
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
So, I think you're being unrealistic in what you think is possible, that's all. And again, I have to mention the huge risk factor involved in an overhaul as massive as the one you suggest..... especially when they're at the top like this.
I think you're underestimating just how much BANK they got from BG3.
They literally went from a failing company (As DOS2 was considered a flop due to poor sales performance) into "Yeah, we're now developing multiple AAA games simultaneously"
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
Lemme ask you: if you were in their shoes, would YOU take that kind of risk?
Absolutely.
I've personally often lamented the fact that most AAA development (Or rather, publishers) have no balls to push the envelope. Instead of doing something new and exciting they're always stuck copying what already worked well before.
Then if I consider Swen himself, he's always given the impression that he wanted to make the games he wanted to make but was frustrated with the lack of success with Divinity that prevented him from doing so. With him seeking out the BG3 IP seemingly entirely due to its noteriety (Given statements about lack of interest in D&D, which is well reflected in the excessive homebrew the game utilizes).
With BG3's MASSIVE success, not only providing ridiculous funding but also making Larian's name well known... He now has his ideal platform for making the stuff HE wants to make, with a good chance of it being successful due to the large following the company now has.
Meanwhile, even if things go awry due to this happening to the Divinity series itself... Well, he already mentioned that after Divinity and the other game that's a brand new IP, that they will work on "Another Original Sin" title. So even if die hard CRPG Divinity fans are upset, they're going to get their new CRPG game eventually anyway.
On the contrary, a VERY large portion of BG3 fans are not fans of turn based games.
Not really. The only people complaining against the turn-based combat were a small minority of people who begurdged the fact it wasn't so in BG1 and 2. Personally, even as a fan of the old Bioware titles, I found the passage to turn-based arguably the main NET improvement Larian introduced to the series.
Quote
I think you're underestimating just how much BANK they got from BG3.
They literally went from a failing company (As DOS2 was considered a flop due to poor sales performance)
What? No, it wasn't. DOS 2 was a massive hit and it sold almost 8 million copies in a genre where most of the competitors would be ecstatic selling few hundred thousands. A lot of people who never cared about the BG series in the past (their loss, really) were thrilled about BG3 because "it was from the same studio that made DOS 2".
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Not really. The only people complaining against the turn-based combat were a small minority of people who begurdged the fact it wasn't so in BG1 and 2. Personally, even as a fan of the old Bioware titles, I found the passage to turn-based arguably the main NET improvement Larian introduced to the series.
What? No.
There was TONS of feedback about how people weren't interested in CRPG's but gave BG3 a shot and ended up liking it.
It's how it managed to receive critical success despite CRPG's being an incredibly niche genre before BG3.
Originally Posted by Tuco
What? No, it wasn't. DOS 2 was a massive hit and it sold almost 8 million copies in a genre where most of the competitors would be ecstatic selling few hundred thousands. A lot of people who never cared about the BG series in the past (their loss, really) were thrilled about BG3 because "it was from the same studio that made DOS 2".
What are you going on about?
Larian, and Swen himself, has mentioned that DOS2 didn't perform as well as hoped.
Also plenty of people did not care about DOS2. Which is reflected in a bunch of the responses to the reveal of this new game, where people are mentioning they have never played a Divinity game at all.
Larian, and Swen himself, has mentioned that DOS2 didn't perform as well as hoped.
Literally NEVER. It was their first real big hit after DOS 1 did just fine. I'll send you 50 bucks through a Paypal account of choice if you can find me the source of a direct quote about this.
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Taril.... that genre switch was never desired by Larian. They've ALWAYS wanted to make turn-based crpgs (always), but industry pressures forced them to go the route of ARPGs. And it was NEVER successful. In fact, it wasn't until Original Sin, when they achieved their first tru, incontrovertible Hit.
Which is why Original Sin games almost sank the company...
It was Original Sin that saved it. That was their do or die game.
And the success of DOS2 was the reason they eventually landed the deal with WOTC.
That said, action combat can also be interesting for sure. It's just that most developers opting for the action go the dumb combat route. Or as Bioware put it: "We want Call Of Duty's audience". RPG studios increasingly trying to make RPGs for people who don't actually like RPGs -- it's happened way back with Ultima already. https://www.filfre.net/2021/02/ultima-viii-or-how-to-destroy-a-gaming-franchise-in-one-easy-step/ This is a different time though with more games out on the market than ever before. It's about specialization. No less as your average modern triple-A game desperately trying to please everyone is an action adventure type of game with RPG elements... it's a market that's fully on cannibalizing itself. Whether you play the latest Final Fantasy, Ubisoft or Bioware game, they're all becoming a blur.
Larian, and Swen himself, has mentioned that DOS2 didn't perform as well as hoped.
picture or it never happened.
I don't know of any interview with Swen in which he said anything like that. Furthermore, a role-playing game from a (at the time) relatively unknown and rather small developer like Larian (again: at the time), which (allegedly) sold around 8 million copies, is by no means a poor performance (disclaimer: of course, we don't know the company's cost structure and we don't know anything about the actual sales figures).
Last edited by 4verse; 15/12/2510:54 AM.
"I don't make games to make money, I make money to make games". (Swen Vincke)
Then if I consider Swen himself, he's always given the impression that he wanted to make the games he wanted to make but was frustrated with the lack of success with Divinity that prevented him from doing so.
he never said he was frustrated with the lack of success.
He was frustrated with the publishers and the fact that their “business mindset” prevented him from developing the games he had envisioned.
Last edited by 4verse; 15/12/2511:00 AM.
"I don't make games to make money, I make money to make games". (Swen Vincke)
Then if I consider Swen himself, he's always given the impression that he wanted to make the games he wanted to make but was frustrated with the lack of success with Divinity that prevented him from doing so.
he never said he was frustrated with the lack of success.
He was frustrated with the publishers and the fact that their “business mindset” prevented him from developing the games he had envisioned.
Pretty sure Swen said that "Divinity always sell well", at least he said it once here (it's DOS1 documentary):
To be honest, I got to know Larian Studio through Baldur's Gate 3. I was amazed by Baldur's imaginative turn based combat system, which allows players to adapt and plan a battle with a pause in time and unleash their creativity. Indeed, ARPG's expression is more dynamic, but CRPG's diversity and freedom of customization are more appealing to me. And I noticed that on the Internet in China, players prefer the form of crpg.
If the game ends up being turn=based combat, then it will be an easy call for me to pass on it (or at least wait until it is on sale dirt cheap to take a look at it).
I'm hoping it will be isometric turn-based. I'm not opposed to more actiony combat, but there are so few games like DOS1/2/BG3 that I'd hate for Larian to pivot from turn-based.
If the game ends up being turn=based combat, then it will be an easy call for me to pass on it (or at least wait until it is on sale dirt cheap to take a look at it).
I think that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Originally Posted by Sven_
That said, action combat can also be interesting for sure. It's just that most developers opting for the action go the dumb combat route. Or as Bioware put it: "We want Call Of Duty's audience". RPG studios increasingly trying to make RPGs for people who don't actually like RPGs -- it's happened way back with Ultima already. https://www.filfre.net/2021/02/ultima-viii-or-how-to-destroy-a-gaming-franchise-in-one-easy-step/ This is a different time though with more games out on the market than ever before. It's about specialization
Yeah, that's the thing, though: I don't hate action combat in itself, I'm just more than a bit skeptic about Larian having the expertise on it to pull off an action combat I would genuinely enjoy. They can't exactly boast From Software's track record in that area. Then again in their defense very few can.
Which is why I think they should "stay in their lane", so to speak, and offer something they can excel at.
Last edited by Tuco; 16/12/2510:19 AM.
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
If the game ends up being turn=based combat, then it will be an easy call for me to pass on it (or at least wait until it is on sale dirt cheap to take a look at it).
I think that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Oh goody. Thanks for giving me incentive to stay on here and keep posting on this game despite my lack of strong interest in it, given how much you apparently love my posts!
Taril.... that genre switch was never desired by Larian. They've ALWAYS wanted to make turn-based crpgs (always), but industry pressures forced them to go the route of ARPGs. And it was NEVER successful. In fact, it wasn't until Original Sin, when they achieved their first tru, incontrovertible Hit.
Which is why Original Sin games almost sank the company...
Oh wait...
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
And the overwhelming majority of Larian's fanbase would want an evolution of DOS2 and BG3, not an overhaul.
On the contrary, a VERY large portion of BG3 fans are not fans of turn based games.
It's seen a lot that people mention that they like BG3 DESPITE it being a CRPG, a genre they have no interest in at all.
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
So, I think you're being unrealistic in what you think is possible, that's all. And again, I have to mention the huge risk factor involved in an overhaul as massive as the one you suggest..... especially when they're at the top like this.
I think you're underestimating just how much BANK they got from BG3.
They literally went from a failing company (As DOS2 was considered a flop due to poor sales performance) into "Yeah, we're now developing multiple AAA games simultaneously"
Originally Posted by MarcoNeves
Lemme ask you: if you were in their shoes, would YOU take that kind of risk?
Absolutely.
I've personally often lamented the fact that most AAA development (Or rather, publishers) have no balls to push the envelope. Instead of doing something new and exciting they're always stuck copying what already worked well before.
Then if I consider Swen himself, he's always given the impression that he wanted to make the games he wanted to make but was frustrated with the lack of success with Divinity that prevented him from doing so. With him seeking out the BG3 IP seemingly entirely due to its noteriety (Given statements about lack of interest in D&D, which is well reflected in the excessive homebrew the game utilizes).
With BG3's MASSIVE success, not only providing ridiculous funding but also making Larian's name well known... He now has his ideal platform for making the stuff HE wants to make, with a good chance of it being successful due to the large following the company now has.
Meanwhile, even if things go awry due to this happening to the Divinity series itself... Well, he already mentioned that after Divinity and the other game that's a brand new IP, that they will work on "Another Original Sin" title. So even if die hard CRPG Divinity fans are upset, they're going to get their new CRPG game eventually anyway.
See? I've been trying to tell you, Taril.... Thank the gods, Swen Vincke is in charge of Larian Studios.
I'm not against ARPG but I'm really hoping they double down on the BG3 style. Realtime travel with Turn based combat with lots of strategy options. Love the more serious art and animation style but looking forward to a more adult experience with Divinity. I liked the Divinity series but honestly think BG3 was their best work yet. This I think is going to move it into new territory with their experience and talent. One thing I'd love to see is a player home that can be built, found, rewarded or attained through some unique way that players can improve and has game impacting play as well. Maybe not to the level of a Kingmaker type but thats just dreaming. A cool camp is also nice.
With that said, Larian has earned my respect and I'm sure at this point anything they create is going to be grand.
I'm not against ARPG but I'm really hoping they double down on the BG3 style. Realtime travel with Turn based combat with lots of strategy options. Love the more serious art and animation style but looking forward to a more adult experience with Divinity. I liked the Divinity series but honestly think BG3 was their best work yet. This I think is going to move it into new territory with their experience and talent. One thing I'd love to see is a player home that can be built, found, rewarded or attained through some unique way that players can improve and has game impacting play as well. Maybe not to the level of a Kingmaker type but thats just dreaming. A cool camp is also nice.
With that said, Larian has earned my respect and I'm sure at this point anything they create is going to be grand.
Oh goody. Thanks for giving me incentive to stay on here and keep posting on this game despite my lack of strong interest in it, given how much you apparently love my posts!
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
I replaying the original Baldur's gate trilogy right now. Although I love these games, its implementation of real time with pause was truly ass. I think I rate the toilet chain more highly, and I also hate the toilet chain. I am happy to hear that the new game will be turn based.
So the narrative goes that Swen was always very for turn-based combat, and basically forced to make Divine Divinity and Divinity 2 ARPGs because that's what the publishers wanted, and I get that, BUT y'all are forgetting that no one forced (or even asked) Larian to make Dragon Commander a real-time action/strategy game, but they did it anyway, and knocked it out of the park.
I know a lot of people didn't really give DDC a chance, but it's one I hold in incredibly high esteem for effectively creating an entirely new subgenre of RTS -- or it would have, had it taken off.
Larian's already done so much good work with turn-based systems, true, but I also think DDC demonstrates that they have the skill and capacity and, to some extent, desire to make really good action games, too. So whichever way the new Divinity game winds up going, I'm confident it'll be extremely fun. No matter what other flaws Divinity games may have, Larian's *always* delivered in the gameplay department.
So the narrative goes that Swen was always very for turn-based combat, and basically forced to make Divine Divinity and Divinity 2 ARPGs because that's what the publishers wanted, and I get that, BUT y'all are forgetting that no one forced (or even asked) Larian to make Dragon Commander a real-time action/strategy game, but they did it anyway, and knocked it out of the park.
I know a lot of people didn't really give DDC a chance, but it's one I hold in incredibly high esteem for effectively creating an entirely new subgenre of RTS -- or it would have, had it taken off.
Larian's already done so much good work with turn-based systems, true, but I also think DDC demonstrates that they have the skill and capacity and, to some extent, desire to make really good action games, too. So whichever way the new Divinity game winds up going, I'm confident it'll be extremely fun. No matter what other flaws Divinity games may have, Larian's *always* delivered in the gameplay department.
Swen already confirmed it will be turn-based. So YAY!!
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