Larian Studios Forums Divinity General Discussion What type of itemization/progression we'll get this time?

Just to have a discussion more about mechanics than flavor:


I'll start saying that with Larian dropping the D&D license I'm more than a bit concerned about the potential return of two things I NEVER liked in the Divinity games.

- constant stat bloat across the progression curve that makes individual levels arguably too relevant.
- the horrendous Diablo-like randomized itemization, consisting in large part of computer-generated items that felt all samey and were designed around the concept of a steady increase in stats (which incidentally adds over the previous point).

I always felt that BG3 switching to an itemization made (mostly) out of unique and hand-placed items was a massive improvement over previous Larian titles.

It also helps that itemization in D&D is generally focused on giving to your equipment special, distinctive powers, rather than having enormous granularity with stats. The difference from a mundane item, a magic one and a legendary is a +0, +1 or +3. Which may sound "dull" on paper but actually creates an incredibly consistent baseline to keep the stat bloat to a minimum while allowing a designer to go crazy on the "secondary effects" (i.e. "double damage to undead", "applies Smite on hit", "heals when you inflict damage" and so on).

Keep in mind that the itemization in BG3 had little to do with actual D&D but was very much Larians own design with some D&D constrains.

I hate random loot with random stats, so I'm hoping this is something Larian will avoid. Constantly having to evaluate and swap out new pieces of gear seemingly after every encounter is exhausting.

That's definitely not true.
While Larian definitely chose to add their own flavor to itemization (especially with items that had odds synergies and conditionals for use) it was NET departure from what they did before.


Yep, that's exactly how I feel about it.

And while to be clear I'm not a big fan of this type of "looter shooter" style of itemization even in Diablo-like games focused on random, respawning enemies and grinding... I can't genuinely stress enough how much I despised experiencing it in a party-based and story-driven game with a finite number of encounters AND with a steep power curve (which basically forced you to refresh the equipment for the entire team every hour or so or fall behind the power curve).

Not only it was annoying in itself, but it also made every single item you found feel worthless and disposable. Even when the absolute best up to that point.

Oh, and on a side note I fiercely dislike color-coded loot too, but I feel like that's a battle lost a long time ago.

To be honest, I like having some randomness. At least for some "Common" items.

I.e. A D&D example would be plain +1 or +2 items that have no secondary effects they're just items with the bonus AC/Attack stats on them.

These basic things allowing you to acquire relevant stats without having to specifically go out of your way to pick up all the special items you can. You just replace these with those special items as and when you naturally come across them.

BG3 almost does this well. Many containers can have random items in... But the way it fails is that every random item is +0 making it literally useless (Instead, if you want your basic +1 or +2 item you have to buy them from a vendor... Who is also selling half the game's special items so why would you even bother with the basic items when the special items have the stats and bonuses...)

The key thing is to not have the stupid Lucky Charm stat, that makes it so you have to open EVERY SINGLE container in hopes of randomly finding some equipment in a flour sack or some crap. Make containers make sense, have gear only be found in clear and logical containers so you only need to check those for gear (Sort of like in BG3 where bookshelves are where you'll find Scrolls). This can (And should) be extended to all loot. We shouldn't be rummaging around in every single barrel and crate and finding completely random stuff, but checking specific containers for specific things.

It could also be nice to have multiple potential spawn locations for at least some special items.

For example, if you had a special item "Goblin Chieftain's Sticking Spear of Stabbing" and also had say 3 different goblin camps. Then this item could have 3 potential spawn locations, which is determined upon game start. So that it can show up in any of the goblin camps, rather than always the exact same one.

Such a thing means that the item is still handplaced, it's still guaranteed to be obtainable in every run. But the difference is that you won't start every game bee-lining towards all the special items immediately, instead you'd progress more naturally by doing other things and then seeing when you happen across the special item spawns (Especially with aforementioned "Basic" items allowing you to fill out your gear with base stats.

Also, don't put half the game's special items onto vendors it's not fun, it's not interesting. It's just lame. Have vendors sell basic items, so you can fill out your stats if random basic items didn't cover everything. Maybe have a handful of special items on vendors throughout the game to entice you into accruing wealth (Or theft skills) to acquire them. But put the majority of special items into the actual world to find by exploring not by running to the nearest town and buying the best gear without ever needing to see combat...

This is because, at the end of the day, when replaying BG3 or DOS2 (With the Additional Uniques mod) and just running the same routes to go and pick up the special items with set spawn locations on every run gets a bit tiresome. It always felt more interesting the first time when not knowing where all the loot was so you just plodded along all freeform and happened across items. Randomization (In a limited form, rather than pure RNG such as in Looter games) can offer that experience of not knowing where loot is thus providing more freeform gameplay rather than the devolution into "I know where every item is, so I'll rush and grab them as soon as possible and ignore literally everything else"

I don't have much experience with the DOS games, but I liked the item handling in BG3 and DnD.
Including finding special items on set places to help you make a specific build.

I was not a fan of the design of the difficulty curve in the original sins games where as soon as you entered a new chapter you got stomped by everything until you acquired the appropriate gear for the level.

I preferred BG3 where the progression was more gradual and seamless.

This is really well put together👍
I'd be happy to see the loot system end up looking like this.

Eh, i have my reservations on that take.

On one hand, I can concede that having a "baseline" of randomly generated common items is... fine, even if maybe not ideal, as long as the genuinely unique items are limited to deliberate hand placement from a designer.

On the other hand I disagree with him that these common items should be necessarily better on average.
I think it's perfectly fine to have a somewhat randomized loot table (i.e. any character, enemy or container can eventually drop some stuff) precisely as long as their loot table is logically consistent sense (i.e. wolves shouldn't drop coins or weapons, poor farmers attacking you shouldn't drop jewelry, etc.) AND it's limited to trival/common items, ingredients, vendor trash.

And while I agree that shops shouldn't be the main source of rare items, I'm perfectly fine with every relevant vendor in the game having at least one or two interesting "Unique" for sale.

Random elements in itemization bring extra build variety, this is the main net positive. But it is very easy to screw up and very hard to balance I feel, some random modifiers on items would likely end up trash or situational and some become overly desirable (like +X to abilities in DOS2 or +AP/Speed in DOS1 for example). If Larian manages to find better way to provide build variety and replayability than through items, then I'm all in for it. But as of now, arguably, DOS2 has better build variety than BG3, and random items are part of that variety.

I find that the greatest weakness with the gear in BG3 is that 80% of the unique items are just plain worse in terms of stats or synergy than the other 20%. So you end up never using or looking at a majority of the unique items that are in the game.

A frustrating example is when you find some equipment that has a special ability connected to for example being used as a bound weapon by an eldritch knight, or by a dwarf. And then you go "that's interesting since I happen to have an eldritch knight or a dwarf", and you look closer at it and realize that even with that special bonus it is still just worse than the weapons you already have for that character.

I think that when you add a unique piece of gear into the game it should have the potential to be the best choice of gear for at least some specific build or synergy, otherwise you could just leave it out and drop something generic because all you do is sell it anyway.

Putting aside that as a single benefit it would be pretty slim, I don't even particularly agree with this point.

One of the cornerstone of "build planning" in videogames is predictability. You need to be able to predict where and when you get what to plan for a build.
Randomized loot ACTIVELY works against it, forcing you to deal with the hand you are served.

Now, there may be arguments about liking this in principle (card games are based entirely on this principle, for instance), but that's another story. And on a personal level I would also disagree on considering it a plus.

Aside of not liking it flavor-wise, my other argument about disliking randomized loot (and tangentially also an excessive amount of randomized/respawning encounters) is that the feel I get out of these is FAR from "Oh, look at all these diverse and unpredictable experiences I'm having" but rather "Why does every part of this feels so samey and a worthless waste of time?".

I'd like the concept of randomized loot and stores as an optional feature. So if you are playing the game several times, you can choose to go for a more random playthrough where you have to adapt a different approach. But it's also something which already exists as mods in for example BG3, so I wouldn't neccessarily need the studio to make that themselves.

Planning a build within a system with random elements requires meta knowledge, however same can be said about hand-placed uniques since you don't know where and when you encounter one until you play through the game and see. The only difference I see for the former is that you can't pinpoint the exact moment when your build comes together, while with the latter you can. In this regard I find the 'build your character journey' more interesting with the random loot system, at least in the long run, for consequent playthroughs. If anything lies in place then replayability suffers. And I tend to replay Larian's games a lot. As long as the drops are plentiful or the chances can be influenced - this random system should not be much of an issue, I think.

I agree with this.

Randomized item only works when there are enough thing to smack with said random items, because many if not most of you will try to farm the weapon with particular behavior that work with your build, which is why it works in games like Fallout 4 or 76 which basically a "forever game" where a single randomly generated weapon can change the entire build and will stay relevant because enemy will keep spawning to gratify your success in building your character with random item.

cRPG, which I presume Larian is still making, much more rooted in predictability. Build and the joy of building that build rooted from having game knowledge and knowing which item needed and where to get it as fast as possible in order to do it most efficiently.

When did I say that they would be "Better on average"?

I only said that they should be able to be better than the absolute worst items in the game.

That's part of the random aspect.

In BG3, literally all "Random" items are +0 vendor trash. From Act 1 all the way to Act 3, if you open a container and it has a randomly generated piece of equipment, it's +0.

My suggestion is to have the actual ability for items to not be completely and totally useless.

I.e. In Act 1 you can find +0 and +1 items. In Act 2 you can find +0, +1 and +2 items and Act 3 you can find +0, +1, +2 and +3 items.

This means that actually rifling through containers is actually relevant because you can find items you might actually use (But only rifling through containers that make sense. You're not finding a breastplate in a flour sack or a greatsword in a purse. You'd be looking at weapon lockers, weapon racks, armour chests etc) - These items aren't better than the handplaced uniques, they're just bog standard stat items with no fancy effects. With the idea they can help you get a full set of stat gear without having to go find full sets of uniques or buy everything from a store (Meanwhile, you can also supplement with enemy drops)


I think a major part of that is the limitations of D&D's itemization. With Larian restricting themselves to level 12 cap, they were stuck with only +3. With most items being either +1 or +2.

Meaning a lot of potential items simply got screwed over because they are +0 or +1 unique items that can literally never compete with the +2 unique items you can obtain at the same point. Even the Pact Weapons having that bonus +1 from being bound still just brings them up to par with if you were just using a +2 weapon anyway (And then you have the +3 weapons that not only are one upgrade higher than everything else in the game, since they are exclusive "Legendary" tier they also have crazy good effects... Who tf would be running around with the Dwarf specific throwing hammer they pick up in Act 3 when in the same Act, right at the start, you can grab Nyrulna which is not only +1 higher than it but also has multiple special bonuses)

To which there's a potential divisive solution to such things, in the ability to "Upgrade" uniques to higher quality levels. Meaning the unique you found in Act 1 can be upgraded to match the stats of one found in Act 2 and Act 3. Whereby the idea is that you are looking more for the perfect special effects for your build rather than ignoring everything that isn't the highest tier loot you can obtain.

This is something that Cyberpunk 2077 does and I feel it works well, every iconic weapon can be upgraded in quality to get base stats comparable with your level. Meaning that no matter when you acquire one it can be part of your final build if its special effects are worth it.

The downside of the system is it can devalue actually looking for items. If you have a full set of uniques in Act 1 and you can then upgrade them in Act 2 then you have little reason to look for any +2 items in Act 2 and you'd be simply looking for the upgrade materials instead. This is fine in CP2077 because it's loot system is utter trash (As it's very "Looter Shooter" pilled with everything being random) alongside the fact that all enemies instantly update to the newest tier thanks to adaptive leveling but could interfere with progression in a more standard RPG format.