Larian Studios Forums Divinity General Discussion Will this game FINALLY take world simulation to the next level?

Source points in DOS2. Cards/population/commanders in Divinity: Dragon Commander.

And even if they never had those, the next game is Divinity, not D:OS2 2, they should learn from BG3 and to create new systems altogether.


I disagree. There is a tiredness system: you can literally do less as time goes on, by running out of resources/abilities unless you rest. That seems rather natural to me. I also don't think going to a camp is heading into a pocket dimension. People who go camping don't disappear into another plane of existence.


That would be a loss. I really like the reaction system. Actions and bonus actions too. More different resources means more varied ways to optimize your build. One fundamental problem D:OS2 had is that there was one way to optimize your build: physical damage and more physical damage, because that was the one variable you could multiply together. Meanwhile BG3 has many optimized builds and more reasons to pick something less optimal because of reactivity. So I definitely hope they are learning their lessons from BG3 and not just tossing systems aside because they think they are getting in the way instead of seeing how they improve the feeling of adventure.

You don't think a developers past iterations are relevant to their newest iteration of the same formula?

Strange.


I never said they were. But this is why it exists in D&D and as a result, BG3.

The only reason resting is a thing in D&D is because of resource limitation. There used to also be an exhaustion system, but that was done away with several editions ago.

With Divinity lacking said resources, there's no reason to consider there being a rest system that has only ever been used by Larian because it is part of D&D and they couldn't homebrew their way out of its inclusion in BG3.

They could try and force in some new mechanics purely to add this feature into their next game. But we have no reason to expect that. The expectation is that there won't be a rest system.

Hence you feeling the need to make this thread in the first place requesting some sort of dynamic time feature that could thus lead into resting mechanics, because in lieu of an expectation, you are providing feedback of a desire for such.


Ehh... I don't put much stock in day/night cycles or resting as "World simulation"

I've played WAY too many games where such things existed and they added literally nothing to the world simulation at all, or even detracted from it (Having day/night cycle every few minutes does not make a world seem real, it makes it seem video gamey. Since in no actual world does it take several days to walk down a street...)

Meanwhile, I've also played a LOT of games that have immersive worlds that never included such things, with it never feeling noticeably strange or out of place for lacking such.

Which is why I'm not sold on shoving in a random and shallow day/night cycle for the sake of it. Without proper care, it only serves to detract from the actual immersiveness and general atmosphere all for what? So you can take pretty nighttime pictures before you time skip back to day so actually playing the game is less annoying?


Source points I sucked out of people at will. It was a literal core plot point for the game.

I don't think they should DICTATE their future output, no.
ESPECIALLY when they declared themselves that they are going to delpoy an entirely now one for this game without recycling anything from their previous systems.

No, you didn't. It may be that you played them and you didn't appreciate what they added to the mix, on the other hand.

Flavor, cosmetic variety, immersion, NPC scheduling, varietty of possible encounters or what else.

You can long rest at will as well. It is literally a core mechanic for the game.

Limited resource with an at-will replenishment mechanic that you have to go out of your way to make use of.

Yes I did.

You don't get to dictate what games have done just because it doesn't fit in your narrow view that simply slotting in some mechanic magically makes a game better.

Keep in mind, in another thread you were going on about how you hate "Classless Systems". Do I get to start saying "No, you never played a game where a classless system made it worse. You just didn't understand what it added to the game!"

As with every game mechanic, it all depends on how well its implemented.

Like you mention, if it adds flavour, cosmetic variety, immersion, NPC scheduling, variety of possible encounters, it can actually provide something to the game.

But if it doesn't add any of that and it's merely just "Game becomes an eye strain for a few minutes" then it's not providing anything positive to the game.

This is why I said I've played too many games that have featured day/night cycles and they added nothing. They didn't provide flavour, immersion, NPC scheduling, variety of encounters. It was shallow and did nothing but make things harder to see for no reason. All this added to the game was making it more annoying (And headache inducing from eye strain).

That isn't to say that all games are like this. No, I've played my fair share of games where day/night cycles were done properly and they did add things to the game. For example, Skyrim alters NPC scheduling (Including humanoid enemies). Tainted Grail both alters NPC scheduling, adds special loot drops at night and replaces currently despawned enemies with new encounters.

But again, these had to actually do something with the mechanic besides slap it in. They had to use it as a vehicle to add those additional game alterations to give it meaning.

I didn't reject a claim that you didn't like these games, because that would be highly subjective and consequently irrelevant, as there would be nothing to discuss.
I rejected the specific one you made about how these day/night cycles you experienced added (and I quote) "literally nothing" to these games, because that's highly unlikely. And I gave you direct examples of what even the most basic, bare-boned implementation of the feature would add.

But hey, you are free to start listing them so we can dissect these examples.

Anyway, I'm going over the entire conversation so far and I'm still not sure what you are trying to argue here.

Do you have a specific objection against Larian adding a day/night cycle to their next game or are you arguing for the sake of it?

And I didn't respond saying you did.


Which is literally what I said you did.

I have played games where day/night cycles were implemented and they didn't literally nothing.

You claim that these games don't exist or they did things they did not.

This isn't about whether I liked the games or not. This is purely me saying that they didn't add all these additional features you keep talking about.


No you didn't.

You gave examples of ADDITIONAL things beyond the most basic, bare-boned implementation would add.

Literallly, the most basic, bare-boned implementation adds... The screen is darker for a few minutes.

That's it. That's all. No NPC changes. No change of enemy spawns. No immersion. Just, every few minutes, the screen goes darker.

This is exactly how it's implemented in a game like Titan Quest. It adds nothing else. There are no NPC changes. No enemy spawn differences. No immersion. Just, the screen is darker. Not in a way where you get any cool visuals from things being lit up from well placed light sources to provide some nice visual aesthetic, no, just the screen is dark.


My point, is that I don't want just a basic, bare-boned implementation just for the sake of implementation.

My point is that if a day/night cycle is implemented, I would want it to have actual things beyond just a darker screen. I want those things that give the mechanic meaning, things like proper aesthetic differences, immersion from the world feeling more real, NPC's that shift behavour or changes in enemy spawns.

Things that make the inclusion of such a mechanic relevant. Not just "Screen goes dark" and nothing more.

Titan Quest isn't a CRPG. It's an hack' n slash.
Are you pulling my leg or what?

What's next? FIFA or Madden?

What's genre got to do with anything?

Games implementing a day/night cycle transcends CRPG's my guy.

Also, I like how you only bring this up now when it doesn't support your point compared to when I brought up Skyrim or Tainted Grail (Which are also ARPG's). Also I brought up Titan Quest in my initial post on this topic... Funny how you didn't latch onto it then.

Perhaps you're just clutching at straws because you have no counter to being shown that your mindset that day/night cycles MUST at BARE MINIMUM include a whole bunch of other stuff that makes the mechanic actually worth something, when the reality is plenty of games do the actual bare minimum, which is "Darker screen" for a few minutes periodically.

Either way, it's becoming increasingly more obvious with every interaction with you that it's absolutely pointless to engage with you.

Consider this my last post that ever does.

If you really can't see the difference between Titan Quest and Skyrim you are not arguing in good faith.

If you really can't see what the mechanic is being used for, you're not arguing in good faith.

Skyrim is an ARPG that utilizes day/night cycle to provide some actual mechanics to the game. Titan Quest is an ARPG that utilizes day/night cycle for literally nothing.

You can cry all you like about how the games are different... But it's all just mechanics. Yes, there are some differences in some mechanics, but it's not like they're incomparable.

It's also not like Titan Quest's isometric viewpoint and focus on random loot necessitates it having a useless day/night cycle. It could still have NPC's change, could still have enemy spawns differ, could still have some level of immersion. It just doesn't.

I've played isometric ARPG's that actually do utilize day/night cycles for aforementioned mechanics.

For example, Ravenswatch is an isometric ARPG that has day/night cycles. With it being tied to the overall mechanics of the game (It being similar to Nightreign in that you go do things on a map and then after a certain amount of time you have to fight a boss and proceed to the next area), but night time also alters enemies, both what enemies that appear as well as enemy movesets. It also can alter your own skills, several characters have alterations to skills based on day/night (Most notably the Werewolf character who's human during the day and werewolf during the night. But also the Pied Piper character has his attacks change completely based on day/night)

Meanwhile, I've played first person ARPG's that don't do anything with day/night cycles. For example, Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't change NPC's at all based on day/night. Enemies don't change. There's no immersion from having to actually rest or anything. It's just there for "Look how pretty the city is at night" and that's it.

Genre, or specific viewpoint within a genre means abosultely nothing in regards to this "Argument"

It all comes down to "How it is used". When used properly and tied to other mechanics, day/night cycles can be actually interesting and add to the game. When used poorly and implemented in a very bare-bones way with no additional mechanics, it's just visual fluff where you're lucky if it actually has any visual appeal inherent to it.

Simply day/night cycles on their own, are not in of themselves an interesting mechanic. As all it encompasses is the screen becoming dark every now and then. That's it, that's all the base mechanic for day/night is. Screen going dark.

It's only when it is combined with other mechanics, like lighting systems to make it visually appealing, changes to NPC behaviours based around time, alterations to enemies (Enemy types, enemy density, enemy behaviours etc), some sort of fatigue or other such "Survival" mechanics (Like a temperature mechanic where you become cold at night) etc. Does the concept of "Day/night cycles" actually become interesting.

But as mentioned, these are not defacto aspects of the mechanic. Many games don't include them and just put in the base mechanic of "Screen goes dark". This goes for many genres of games, from CRPG, ARPG, FPS, MMO, JRPG, Walking Simulators, Puzzle games...

Many different genres have utilized day/night cycles. Some, it works well as it's complemented by other associated mechanics. Others, its useless fluff that just makes the game unpleasant to play.

If you cannot see this incredibly basic concept of how game mechanics function, then there's something to wonder about whether you're capable of understanding the "Argument" in question.

Thats idiotic. By your logic chess and beach volleyball are the same, the differences are just mechanics.....