Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions Divinity 2 question, no forum to ask it in

Ok, you've asked for it. Warning: This is going to be long and boring. Warning: I'm not going to put "as an expert" behind every second sentence, because I'm not. I'm just a gamer.

Why I think DD2 should not be first/third person:
Part I: Personal reasons (this is not useful, so skip it, if you like).
I have absolutely not sense of orientation. Neither in real life, nor in games. I can keep maps of entire cities in my head, and that's normally the way I navigate: I look at a map, and then I find my way. If I'm somewhere where I haven't seen a map before, I'll most likely get lost. It's the same in games, and that's the reason I like isometric games. They're like maps. In Gothic 1 I spent half an hour trying to find my hut, to no success.

Part II: Gameplay reasons
Role-Playing games are not action games. The fights are (or should be) based on the skills of the character, not of the player. I have yet to see a first/third person RPG to solve this problem. Imagine if the fights were to be carried out like in Divinity (one click, and the rest is rolling the dices): It would look ridiculous in First person mode: You see yourself striking with your sword, you see your oppenent striking.
It's almost the same in Morrowind: Although you have to click everytime, the combat has a strange feeling to it: You swing your sword in the air, and your opponent get's hit or doesn't. It's the same in isometric perspective, but it doesn't feel that wrong there. It feels like an RPG.
It's somewhat different in Gothic, but the result is the same: Combat feels strange, and if you lose, you never know if it's because your character is to weak, or because you are not good enough (And if you make a combat system like in Gothic, Alix is going to throw cookies at you).
Another reason is the party: First/Third person perspective doesn't allow a real party. Although I'm confident that Larians AI coding ability will not result in a desaster like the persons following you in Morrowind, even if there are persons following you, they are just that: Persons following you, not a party.

Part III: Fanbase reasons
If Riftrunner is good, you are going to have a Fanbase (I'm not talking about this forum) based upon two good isometric games. Chances are that a good part of that fanbase doesn't like first/third person perspective, while the third/first person fans don't know of Larian. Unfortunately that is exactly one of the things I don't like about today's game industry: Nobody is wanting to take risks anymore, for fear of losing their fanbase. But as I don't want first /third person perspective, it felt like a good thing to include anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Part IV: The ideal perspective
I agree with Nem, that the perspective of Dungeon Siege is good. It's the only thing I like about that game. If the engine allows zooming / rotating there should be a key that automatically returns the view to the standard view, with north on top. Everything else would be enough to confuse me.
What I would like, though, is a more "active" camera. I think that if the character's enter a house, the roof should not just vanish, the camera should go behind the party leader, and enter the house through the door, too, and then stay at a fixed angle. This would lead (I think) to an effect of houses being like the drawn pictures of older RPGS, such as Realms of Arkania. That was just an idea, though, it could turn out to be total crap if actually implemented.

Oh well, I'm finished. I think I forgot half of the points I wanted to make, but there's still time to add them later.

That is also my great fear about 3D rpg's not enough overview. But it also has to do with the combat system.

2D = hack & slash
3D = turnbased

and if you got a party in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> 2 all members must always be seen and thats the biggest challenge in my opinion. I know this isn't much helpfull but thats my opinion.

But 3D has it's advantiges => much larger enimies (think 5 stories high)

As an expert on mocking, I think you have just mocked me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

Morbo, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> has a pseudo 3D view, meaning that NSEW are fixed, no zooming and no camera height adjustments. Yet there is panning UDLR.
The mini-map covers the required Top-View to inspect a large area.
All what divinity needed if it had had a 3D true engine is to rotate the plane.
It did not need zooming as you could select the resolution you cared for.
Zooming comes in handy in fact because we would occasionally want to inspect a large area but other than that one has a preferable fixed zoom position in which the hero’s details are best seen at 1:1 resolution as it was created.
If Riftrunner’s quality deteriorated under a true 3D engine I am going to strongly suggest returning to the pseudo 3D for Divinity II.

Well I' m not such an expert as you DAD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Uhm, DAD, Riftrunner is not going to have a 3d engine, it's still going to be the isometric engine of Divinity. The only difference is the characters are made of polygons instead of sprites.
And non-fixed NSEW, and zooming does not make an isometric engine into a 3d engine. There are isometric games, where you can zoom and rotate (A.D. 1602, e.g.), and they are still isometric and not 3d. Expert. (Now I've mocked you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> )

haven't got a clue what yer all mocking about..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

as long as my character doesn't look like a bunch of
rough-edged cubes jumbled together like the way most games look these days..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />
or like he's been superimposed onto the screen , nice background, shitty looking player :crap: !!

Your confidence is amazing Flash, especially when it contradicts declarations made by Swen.
And how do you suppose the battle-fields shall be randomly generated “isometrically”?
Could you please explain to us your conception of isometry; I am growing suspicious that you have no idea what it means. Also please explain to us about isometric zooming and if it should be bicubic, bilinear or nearest neighbour calculated for the best view.

You said:
{
There are isometric games, where you can zoom and rotate
}

I say:
Really?
How?

N. B.
Let us not make this turn into a pissing contest because Lynn shall ban me after drinking tons of beer.
I am doing my best to drive slowly, taking into account the average reader.
I can become very verbose when necessary.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

i get it!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.....i just don't really get it!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

makes sense tho from what i do understand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
i say again i don't want my guy lookin like a walking polygon!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
and i don't think he will anyway....nice new <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> screenshots....
Mmmmmmm!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ...mushrooms...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
If <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> 2 looks anything similarily graphic-wise to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> i'll be satisfied!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

No one knows what D II will look like yet. We are only suggesting here, Jurak.
As for Riftrunner, I began to form a more subtle idea through discussions, and Swen is not revealing every thing yet. He said they reworked the graphics back-engine and whatever that means!
However, random generation demands assembling the scene from 3D presets, while the character is assembled by us at start. Each screen frame being generated shall most probably be based on a pre-rendered background, on top of which many objects exist as sprites. Therefore the world of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> is basically new graphics called by the same engine of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />

A true 3D hero technique has implications on the graphics quality due to polygons-only but not when those polygons are textured with bitmap skin. Curvature resolution sections must be sacrificed though, or else rendering time shall not be tolerated.

Still scenes of high resolution makes all the difference, but when we scroll a map or move the hero, the eye tend to integrate objects and resolution is not that important. The outline becomes of most importance. Adding to all that the glitter and glamour of some particle effects when casting spells should do the trick and we have a fabulous game.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

One word beforehand: This is going to be my last post on this topic, as this is really off-topic here.

Could you please show me those declarations? From the FAQ:
We did a lot of them but the following list includes the most visible ones:
- Updated graphics engine including real time 3D characters with support for DX9 & higher resolutions.
- Zooming functionality.

Somehow like in Diablo, or Age of Empires, I assume. By randomly generating the map. Randomly generating something in real 3d would be much harder, I think.

If I may point to the MobyGames definition. I'm aware, that this is not a technically/mathematically correct definition, but it fits the bill here, as we're talking about games.

I'd say most of the time it's done by simply making every pixel for times bigger, so that it fits four pixels of the resolution instead of one. Of course filters for better image quality can be used (as in Exult), but they seldomly are. The stuff you're talking about is for real 3d engine, AFAIK, and of little use here.

I think you realize very well, that im talking about zooming/rotating in steps, not seamless. So play SimCity 2000, or any of the other games that allow it, and be amazed.

As I said I have no intention on continuing this fruitless discussion.
And one last friendly advice, please don't take this as an offense: Even if you know as much as you pretend, there is no point in showing it off the way you are. Humility is a virtue.

It is not off topic because Marian asked for advise and opinion on how would we like Divinity II to look like.



Why do I have to repeat what you just posted?


This does not answer the question of course on how.
True 3D versus isometric 2D (pseudo-3D) is in the number of degrease you may rotate your object.
The first allow an infinite rotation limited by digital numerical space only.
The second depends on previously rendered true 3D objects from a fixed angle, and then reassembled on runtime appropriately.



Those two claims are contradictory to each other and the second was never implied by Swen for riftrunner.
Now remember that we are talking about Divinity II. So please do not mix the two things.



Indeed you may, and now you should know that there is no difference between 2D isometric view and pseudo-3D view. You may NOT rotate a 2D isometric view preserving isometry; Period.


Wrong answer.
That is why experts are needed to recalculate the colour values of each pixel when you zoom in 10% only.
Continuous isometric zooming demands elaborate mathematical techniques as I mentioned by name and it takes a long time to calculate it properly. OTOH, true 3D operates on vectors and polygons from which the new screen can be calculated faster and by support from hardware as well. Isometric zooming is intolerable in real time game play. This leaves one option left and it is true 3D world.
Of course Lar might not be saying all details or that is evident. I think you are correct on being suspicious that isometry is preserved in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> , yet this means that zooming shall be in predetermined steps and swapping maps.





No, I did not realize that at all, because I may not even think that an RPG with action battles may allow zooming in seconds’ time frame. It must be instant, relative to human reflexes.
Those that allow it are simulation games, and they may tolerate such latency.



Now you start pissing again.
I am not pretending what I am.
I am neither showing off nor do I need to show off.
An expert gives advice out of a sense of duty.
I leave showing off to you Flash, because you do have some knowledge that you should be proud of.
There is no place for humility here, or do you like me to pretend not to be an expert on computer graphics as an act of humility?
Would you like me to give advice on graphics because I am a grocer or a football player?
If you are looking for my humility, then that would be another issue.
I did take what you said into consideration because I am an expert.
OTOH you did not consider what I said deeply because you are not.
Your opinion is dearly valuable as a game player and as a fan of Larian Studios though.
In fact, your opinion is quite appreciated and considered.
So please do not misunderstand my motivations when I give advice, because I am no kid in your school.

Played Commandos 2, DAD?

No, should I? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Yes. It has a good gameplay and has a great example of 2d/3d engine. It's 2d maps outdoors with zoom function (and a powerful one) and rotate, with 3D chars. Indoors it's full 3d with limited zoom but 3d rotate.

Let me just add this:

I wrote "please do not take this as an offense" (what you obviously forgot to quote), and I meant it. So, no, I wasn't "pissing", at least it was not my intention. But as my English lecturer said: "Whenever a German speaks English, it' sounding rude, even if he doesn't want it to."

Well, Flash, you should have warned me that you are writing in Germanic English. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Humility and humiliation are two different things but very close.
Humility is self generated, but once you seek it in others you are humiliating them.
The first one is better described as humbleness, so tell me how humbler can a professor be than to talk to you as a peer and so friendly? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
The second could be a concoction of embarrassment, degradation and dishonouring.
Telling someone that he /she is acting higher than their status means that you look down on them in humility, which is humiliation.
I am not an idiot pretending to be a professor, but a professor pretending to be an idiot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
I have a lot of time to spend after my retirement, so please allow me to behave like a fool occasionally. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
There might be some wisdom behind the acts of a jester (“William Shakespeare”)

I think you missed the point somehow. I see it more as humorous hint forwards roleplaying. Humility IS a virtue. One of the eight virtues an avatar needs. We are talking about Ultima. But when the new Page of Nemisis is online things should get clear.

Aaaa! Please stop it Marian! I got Ultima 9 and I could never run it properly :'(. The game always lagged like crazy. I even got the 8 virtue cards, all the books and such yet when I try to run the game, it's impossible to play it! As for Ultima 7, I couldn't get into it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

ULtima 9 was fun much better than morrowind, (it had the feel)but still no <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />. Didn't crash once, played it out in a months time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />