Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Yeah, the idea that Larian would or should put content in the game that shames players for loving an abusive character is really, really problematic. I'm sure if you would ask the average fan who believes that this is or should be the case (that the kisses are some kind of punishment to the player for choosing Ascension), they would say of course they support victims of domestic violence IRL. But it sends a really bad message and would signal to a real victim of DV that they can't trust this person to have their back. After all, DV is hard to escape from. Victims often claim they still love their partner, and often receive less sympathy for it when in truth, the situation is extremely complicated and nuanced.

And again, I am NOT saying I believe AA is an abuser. In my personal opinion he doesn't read that way at all. But this is something many in the UA fanbase collectively believe, and they have repeated this talking point that amounts to, "That's what you get for ascending him" many times. If I were to point out the hypocrisy to them, they would probably say, "Well, it's just a game, obviously in real life I'd support someone who's being abused." Okay. So, if it's just a game, why is it then okay to punish players for making an available choice in this manner, which as has been mentioned before, is causing actual harm by needlessly triggering people with past trauma?



Right. The actual cycle is not at all replicated in the game. He never apologies for kissing aggressively, never even mentions it. I know in an earlier post I mentioned the novel, A Dowry of Blood, about Dracula's brides. This book does actually show a DV cycle with vampires involved. For centuries, Dracula showers his brides with love, gifts, anything they desire, before throwing the rug out from under them again and again in some terrifying way, and using both physical violence and emotional manipulation to keep them with him. But you know what you're getting into when you read that book. If the intention was really to show the "cycle of DV abuse" with AA, then simply put, they did a bad job. As it is, it felt like he was written to be a very typical dark vampire romance with no extra message or moralizing, where he's loving but also possessive and even cruel if pushed too far, but then with patch 6 someone went, "Let's also shove some actual violence in there," either because they wanted to drive home a point that hadn't been in the text thus far, or because they mistakenly thought people would like it. I'm not 100% sure which.



Hi, it's me, I'm the problem, lol. I ascended him for spite because I don't like randos on social media telling me what to do. And guess what? No regrets. In fact I loved it so much, I went back and did it two more times. Kisses aside, his post-ascension scenes are incredible to me.

I agree, its the kisses mostly (Tav's expressions but also the slap and the push away that rub me the wrong way), hand on throat doesn't bother me because its placed but not choking and its a little show of dominance but I can see how that could be triggering too for some, i think if the expressions were fixed and there was a kiss animation that balanced the power play, that showed Tav is more equal in the relationship but that's not there, so it feels like Tav is his slave and that he tolerates their devotion but ultimately he doesn't appreciate Tav's love, just sees it as something he can play with and use. He says loving things, that Tav would believe if his actions supported it but the new kisses reveal his true feelings, at least that is how I react to them.

There is also the reading his mind check before transformation that tells the player that he will think less of Tav for letting him transform them to Spawn and then his refusal to let them go free if that is what Tav wants. And I don't believe Tav really wants to leave Astarion, what they want is the power to choose to stay and love him and know it is their will to do so.

There is also the dialogue if you break up with Ascended Astarion before becoming Spawn, that he will admit that he would have used your love until you would become nothing.

Ultimately, my frustration is that the player can go into the Weave with God Gale, can romance Justiciar Shadowheart in secret, can go the underdark with Minthara and in all those romances, receive loving animations that show their value to the companion. But with Astarion, especially ascended Astarion, that romance is denied. Yes the dialogue is nice, "Yes, my sweet" etc... but his kiss animations imply at least from my perspective, an abuse of Tav's love. Even if you ignore and skip around the wisdom check etc...

I can't speak to the psycology of abuse etc... so I'm going to stay away from that topic, I'm not a trained psycologist and I don't have personal experience of being in an abusive relationship and frankly everyone's experience is personal and unique to them. I'm also not experienced in Dom/Sub relationships and play, but I will say that I don't think this is what is being played out in this game, Ascended Astarion isn't in my view being a dominant and asking Tav to suddenly play submissive. My approach to this content is vanilla, of role play fantasy, of being sensitive to the character that is Astarion, his history, his character growth through the game. But also being true to my Tav, who has fallen in love with Astarion, who has also gone through personal growth, gotten stronger, more resilient. They would become Spawn on the understanding that Astarion will make them a vampire, they trust that he won't do to them what Cazador did to Astarion. They do it so they can love him eternally, not grow old, grow slow, they want to be his equal. Playing submissive, when you have the power and freedom to walk away, to still have the power to choose, that is very different to being submissive because you don't have free will anymore.

Becoming his Spawn is a leap of faith, but hasn't Tav repeatedly taken that leap, let Astarion feed, trusted him when he finally admitted his feelings for them, trusts him again to help him ascend, believes that he wants to protect them both, that his love for them is real.

I just don't understand why the game would make the Ascended Astarion choice an unpleasant one for Tav, rather than an empowering one. It is a choice for more Power but not without love at its core, not altruistic love, not compassion, but love and devotion to each other.

That is my take, I know everyone has their unique role play with it. I just feel cheated on the romance aspect, it spoils this choice for me and doesn't allow me to play the game, Astarion and my Tav the way I would want to. The only way I can get an Ascended Astarion the way I want (an Ascended Astarion still capable of love) is to play the origin character but then my Tav is missing from the story.

Thank you so much for this insight, I really enjoyed reading this, and it supports the theory, that some people, who haven't played the route, just parrot things, instead of making their own minds.


Well, I think we can understand that someone who hasn't played the romance before patch 6 might not like or be disturbed by the entire route at the sight of the non-consensual kisses. Hardly any new players, without knowledge of the route, will continue playing this path if their Tav looks sad and like they're detesting Astarion and not enjoying. But apart from the patch 6 kisses: You have to play and experience the romance yourself (just watching videos on YouTube and then the break-up scenes doesn't do much, and you often form the wrong opinion from that alone). Everyone has to find out for themselves whether the story and the D/s dynamic appeal to them or not.

It appeals to me and I don't want any changes to AA. I like this dark romance. The appeal of a dark romance for me is the "dark" in the romance, the danger, the unknown, uncertainty, wickedness, evil, power imbalance, being at the mercy, D/s dynamics (I also like enemies to lovers), being chased by a predator, but with the fact that the romance partner wants and desires you and only you. And the AA romance offers, if not everything or perfect, a lot of it.

E.g. It is uncertain what will happen if we let our Tav submit to AA, will he turn them into a bride/groom or his spawn? Does he have complete control over our Tav or not? I think it's brilliant that there is not that one proof on either side, so that everyone can role-play whatever they want. Perfectly solved and balanced.

No. As said above, it is a little open to interpretation for everyone. Because the “dark” in romance should retain a certain appeal, the danger. But honestly, there is nothing stated in the story, that Astarion is doing the same thing as Cazador, you cannot compare them, they are different persons, Astarion has his own personality, so you don't need to worry about that.

No, Tav may help Astarion for certain reasons and what they "want" is on how you roleplay them, but they are not equal, there is a power dynamic and imbalance and Astarion is dom. If all, Astarion sees himself as the ruler and your Tav is his beloved consort, but is staying below him. There is no other way than to play the Spawn route, if you want your Tav to be equal in the relationship. Well, your Tav has their free will throughout the route (they still have the tadpole). There are just some hints. What will happen after the epilogue, it's your own story.


I think otherwise. (I am not comparing it to reallife. It's a dark vampire fantasy romance). In my eyes and my playthrough, that's exactly what he's been since Act 1, and I'm into D/s and SM. Without knowing the romance scene in act 3, I felt the vibe throughout act 1, that Astarion likes to be dom and I was hoping for such a scene.
I love Astarion's dominance, arrogance and sadism. I love reading his mind during the romance scene, it's really a great moment when he wants your Tav to submit to him and you/your Tav have to do this, not knowing what will happen. Playing with fire. And to be honest, Astarion is really soft and caring in this scene, when he is asking Tav to submit to him, when he says: "On your knees, Darling." (Great scene, Larian! - Except the ridiculous break up scene, someone of the team was not serious about the D/s scene, haha. But as I would not choose it, what do I care.)

That Astarion refuses to let Tav go at the post-battle epilogue is great. Astarion has power over Tav. Perfect dark Vampire Romance. You're his, forever. And still so abstract that everyone can interpret it their way.
I know that some people, perhaps those who don't know much about D/s or are not into it, hate this insight check and interpret it complete differently. For me it is one of the most exciting moments in this D/s dynamic and I love both - the insight check and also its failure, when Astarion says so gently: “bad boy!”. There is nothing negative about the Insight check, it brings great feelings and Astarion enjoys this feeling in Tav (or the player) who submits to him. Personally, I find it incomprehensible that so many people are outraged by this insight and discuss what it could mean.
The game offers romances and paths for many different tastes and also minorities, and I think that's a great thought and well done. Finally, next to LGBT+, also D/s lovers (regardless of their gender) are being considered in a mainstream RPG, and I and many others are so eternally grateful for that.

More than 89 % agree that the non-consensual facial expressions of Tav has gotten us shit. Because it takes the player's agency away. Besides of that, everyone has their own taste: there are people who like all of Astarion's animation (like me), the slap, pushing away, throat grab (by the way, Astarion is not choking here), and there are people, who prefer more gentle kisses.

I agree with this:



My Tav is consenting to Astarion and enjoys his dominance. Don't force sad, nonconsensual facial expressions on the player's character.

I really appreciate your thorough reply. I'm pleased that the game gives you the role play you want (except for the expressions, on that we can agree) for me however, my Tav is fierce and has never been his submissive, it would be great if the game also allowed for a more equal dynamic in the ascended romance path for those of us who respond to Astarion differently. I didn't ascend Astarion in my play through, I wanted to, my Tav was definitely in the grey, and liked Astarion's wicked streak, would have been happy to rule Baldur's Gate from the shadows with him, however the dark vampire romance I wanted was not for my Tav to lose their free will, not to realise the love Astarion and Tav once shared was now simply for him a game, not something he really felt anymore.

I know in a play through, you can just ignore all those prompts in the dialogue and therefore your Tav can be blissfully unaware of those alternate routes. But, there are some red flags, that are hard to ignore, little things that clearly imply a change in his feelings for Tav. However if the kisses were fixed I could manage it. Especially if there was at least one kiss animation that was more equal, less submissive.

For me Tav's love transforms, the whole play through, it is my Tav who leads, who helps Astarion see his value, helps him be less defensive and more open to trusting. Every Tav will play that differently of course. My Tav is no saint, they are no push over, they demand respect. Ascended Astarion may be very powerful but when it comes to my Tav, I want to know that he is still vulnerable and in love.

I appeciate your view, I hope Larian makes room for both of us to love Ascended Astarion because he is delicious!

It just dawned on me that Astarion is not a rapist even with those kisses. The illusion that he is a rapist is created solely by the victim-Tav's facial expressions. In thinking about why Astarion needs to shove away Tav, who wants to kiss him, I remembered some time ago in the Astarion romance improvements thread just discussing victim mimicry, and a person who understands the subject of D/s (Seramina) wrote about how wrong it is that subs in a kneeling kiss are afraid because they are in this case doing the dominant's bidding and being rewarded with a kiss. It made me think that if subs are supposed to be submissive, not show initiative and only follow the dominant's instructions, then in a bite kiss Tav is breaking that rule - they themselves are trying to kiss the dominant. And get punished for it - Astarion pushes Tav away and gives an imitation slap. The punishment is light and playful - it doesn't hurt, the slap is purely imitation, there is no blow as such. Astarion then grins, that is, he likes it, he's not angry, it's more like, "Aya-ya-ya-ya, bad boy!" but with a grin, Astarion likes it. So if the player understands the "theme", it will be playful and piquant, if they don't, it is offensive, hurtful and perceived as contempt, rejection, and Astarion's grin in this context becomes the grin of an emotional abuser. In this case, we see three well-directed D/s scenes in terms of Astarion's own animation: the most "vanilla" version of D/s with face-grabbing (Seramina also wrote that this element is the most popular and used just in ordinary, "vanilla" relationships), the "good behavior" version of sab with a reward ("kneeling kiss"), the "bad behavior" version of sab with a light playful punishment (kiss with a bite). I myself am not well versed in the subject of D/s, conclusions based on analyzing what I have read and learned lately, it would be interesting if someone who is well versed would comment on this. The domestic violence story from these scenes was created by whoever set the victim's facial expressions. That changes everything immediately. Imagine watching a BDSM video, and instead of a consenting actor in the shoes of a masochist, it would be someone who was forcibly tied up and tortured, or forced to star in these scenes through blackmail, what would it be? That's the way it is with us, victim-Tav makes D/s scenes into scenes of sadism and violence.

A separate issue is that if a player is not "on theme", doesn't understand how a sub should behave, and doesn't want to behave that way. Incidentally, the fact that Tav doesn't touch Astarion on his own could also be related to the theme of proper sab behavior, and trying to violate that in one of the kisses just leads to "punishment". In my case, when Tav is ready to happily drop to her knees with a half-face smile, it turns out to be more of a passionate "adorer" of Astarion than a normal sab, when you can do anything for "my treasure" and don't care about all the rules of behavior and people around you, as long as Astarion gets a kick out of it. Astarion doesn't explain that Tav should only obey and can't even touch him, if he does, Tav will probably shrink and become sad Tav, it's hard, and it's hard to remember this role all the time and get "punished" if she forgets. If Tav likes this role, there won't be any problems and there's no need to explain anything, only Tav's facial expressions will be different, obviously not victim's facial expressions. How much does Astarion himself want this particular version of dominance? I think Astarion might like it both ways. He enjoys the role of 100% dominant and feels great in it. Does he need absolute adherence to the rules? I don't think so. How does he even know the rules himself? Astarion loves Tav and needs to be loved, and just because he's fine with the 100% top role doesn't mean he won't be fine with a relationship with Tav who wants to touch him herself. He will express his dominance in ways that both of them enjoy. He equally likes "gentle" (look at his face when he kisses your hand with true tenderness) and likes "let it hurt" - then he acts harder, but he knows about consent.

Conclusion: violent scenes should be removed a priori (kissing is a violent scene made by the victim's facial expressions). And we need the option to choose between the beautiful and so liked by many AA fans his possessive romance and the real D/s. AA fans need this, as breaking oneself to the rules of subordinate behavior - no, the game has no right to FORCE the player to do that. Just like it needs to leave the well directed D/s scenes, fixing the facial expressions (Larian could ask the BDSM community about this, they'd probably be happy to tell them what the facial expressions in those scenes should be) for those who liked it. There should be two lines with choices. Especially since it fits Astarion's character. Astarion would probably do that.


What I know of DV involving vampires, like the stories of Strahd's brides and others, it doesn't fit Astarion at all. The woman in those stories either doesn't love the vampire and doesn't want to be with him, or is deceived by him. Well, what they try to shove in our faces, spitting on all our desires. The vampire in these stories is already powerful and established (established himself, without the heroine's help), and the victim is weaker than he is. Just as in real stories of violence, when the rapist is a wealthy man who showered with gifts, wants to provide financially, etc. The victim is unlikely to be his business partner or someone who once helped him "rise from the bottom". Tav loves Astarion and wants to be with him forever, and only him - there is no element of wanting to "break free". There is sadness about the fact that he has such a deep soul wound that he doesn't trust you and he needs this obligatory control. Well, he needs it, so he needs it, no problem, there is a lot of time ahead for him to learn to trust. In about 500 years, there will probably be no trace of his "You're degrading yourself by staying with him...". I don't care about time, if there is immortality, I will still prove my love to him and heal his wounds. Tav is the only one who cared for him after all those 200 years of torture, who helped, who gave everything, the two of them, together they took his Ascension. Tav is not a "New World slave" who was bought by a lord and showered with gold. Tav is a true pair, a strong partner that Astarion can rely on in any battle, in any situation. It's different altogether than in these novels. Completely different.


Yeah, mine is very similar! Of course I'll let Astarion fix and mock him, wait for it, sure... *evil smirk. I replayed it later too, it's just a buzz when replaying, you already look at everything with completely different eyes and the scenes are really incredible! <3


I have the same thing, and the feeling that Astarion is just tolerating Tav's loyalty, in my opinion, is created by that slap and push scene. It's as if he himself regrets getting involved with me and tolerates it with disgust. In the D/s theme, this is not the case, and contempt is not really something Astarion feels. But Larian assumes that all players must know this from somewhere. Astarion, I'm sure, wouldn't do that to Tav, who would take it that way and suffer from it. He would react to it in a completely different way.

So please, dear Larian, know that we love Astarion, we are not going to part with him (otherwise we wouldn't write posts here, and would have played another game long ago, where there will be no problems with roleplay), bring romance back to the game! Enough of these "abuser stories" which are lies and not needed by anyone who plays this route! Fix the kisses with the wishes of all players in mind!

I can only suggest you to either talk with other AA romance players, maybe in a discussion thread, or just play this route on your next playthrough without reading comments of non AA-romance-players, who - without having played the path, are claiming, that AA would not be capable of love (that's not correct*, but make your own mind), and without watching videos of different breakup scenes, and then see by yourself, if you like the path or not (if you can get the patch 6 non-con kisses out of your head for a while.)
*By the way: The player character being loved, adored or liked by the romance partner in a "romance" story, in what twisted way it might be, is somehow mandatory. Astarion contempting or hating the player character while partnered, doesn't make sense in an RPG. And it's not the case here. Apart from the new kisses, where the player character suddenly is contempting and detesting AA.


Yes, agree, that's why most people are suggesting to let us choose between "gentle" (or the patch 5 kiss) and "rough" kisses, both consensual.


I could agree with this. I am so proud of you, Marielle, that you are always reflecting on things and try to understand different themes. Yes, the "slap" itself is not hurtful (it's playful!), and yes, you could read it as a playful punishment for taking the initiative. I could agree with the rest. Tav is the only one making this whole scene into sexual violence. Astarion's animation itself could be D/s, S/M (It's a game, I don't compare it to reallife with safewords). Astarion is not abusing, he is not choking, he is not hurting and not even forcing Tav. (e.g. Tav goes on his knees on his own). Just Tav with their facial expressions (contempt at the beginning, sadness, unwillingness to kiss, digusted, pissed off faces after the kisses) or behaviour looks like they are been taken out of a more or less reallife sexual abuse scene (that's why it is disturbing to a lot of players and causing PTSD flashbacks), Tav even looks away (!) from Astarion, while looking sad and in real discomfort, as if Tav doesn't know this man, as if there would stand a stranger, which he detests. So that's why I assume someone took their idea for the nonconsensual Tav from a completely different drawer, which has nothing to do with the story. (Because of Astarion doing kisses, while Tav is not consenting on it, it looks like Astarion being a psychopath, but his animations itself are not causing it. Even, when I can understand it, when people, who are not into D/s don't like being grabbed by their partner)

They may! If they dare (most people don't like to comment in public).


I will also answer on this, just my own opinion. The "Tav is not allowed to touch Astarion" is an extreme version (maybe not so common in the community), and I assume, the idea of this, also was taken out of a more deviant sadistic source. While there are definitely people, who like this in fantasy, or in these kisses, it would be better, if Tav would be allowed to touch Astarion at least in one kiss, because all kisses without touching is extreme kinky (and I doubt you can compare it to RL) and I assume everyone also wants to have one "loving" kiss (patch 5), when they feel for. If they would ask my humble opinion, I would change the Karlach kiss to Tav being allowed to touch Astarion (because the animation of Tav's arm in the karlach kiss is not in any way special or well done (we don't even see it), it's lame, so it could be changed here. Like Astarion let Tav allow to touch him, enjoy this moment, that Tav is adoring and touching him, before he stops the kiss for having control. Add 1-2 camera angles with this loving touching and Astarion feeling good about it then - the kiss is so short as it is now), plus add the patch 5 kiss for mainstream. So it will be balanced, half/half. A "touch" in the kneeling kiss would not make sense and the animation is already well done. The bite kiss, well, don't you dare to change Tav's arms here, I am used to it now. It's spicy with Astarion's shove. Don't make things too tame, please. But in general it's important to show, that Tav is consenting (no contempt, sadness) and likes to kiss back, how extreme the "play" might be.

Yep, someone who knows or better feels how Tav would feel and look like (Don't ask or let someone direct it, who is not into D/s or has no clue about it and don't ask an immoral sexual sadist, who is into seeing unwilling victims from the beginning to the end)

Aw, I appreciate the kind words!


I'm into D/S and, with the caveat that I've never passed the insight check, just read the text online, I don't like it. And the reason I don't like it is because it feels like it comes out of nowhere to me. Why does he assume I think I'm humiliating myself? I think that was another moment that could have used some serious revision. I also don't like it because, while I admittedly didn't do much mind reading or insight checks on my playthrough, my recollection is that when you succeed them, you generally have the chance to address what you've learned with the person. But you can't do that here, so what the hell is the point of it? If it's to make you feel like this might be a mistake, the conversations you have with him the morning after ("You are so beautiful...thank you for trusting me...you were already perfect before") pretty much negates any idea that he thinks you're doing a dumb thing. But I would be happy to be convinced otherwise.

I do love not passing it though, lol. His "bad girl" is great.

Please, let us steer back to the topic of this thread: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion. Let's not argue, our point for this forum is to bring your feedback and suggestions to Larian.

Arguing over headcanons is not what we want, so please...keep to the top of the thread.

Bring up your reasons for what destroyed your player agency of patch 6 with your play through & Astarion and why.


Thank you!

To summarize what has been said in the topic under discussion, in my opinion, these are:

1. Completely change Tav's facial expressions. No victim facial expressions. No fear, resentment, or pain. This is mandatory, the game currently contains trigger scenes of violence that traumatize people.

2. Make it possible to choose between romantic kisses (as the patch 5 kiss was) for those who want "gentle" and harder ones ("let it hurt"). A very good option was suggested by Ametris earlier in the " Astarion Romance Improvement" thread - you could not tie the kissing scenes to a single choice during the night after Ascension, but make two lines "Kiss me gently" and "Kiss me roughly". Some will be able to choose their favorite option, some will be able to use all of them, then when they want.

3. Give Tav the ability to touch Astarion, change Tav's animation and body language, not just facial expressions. As we found out, even for D/s this isn't necessary, it's just an option that doesn't suit most AA players. It doesn't suit me personally at all. Tav touched Astarion all the time before, why would Astarion not want it now? It looks like we are once again being "prevented" from loving Astarion by covering this idea with just one, and not the most common, D/s option.

100% agree, I'm all for Astarion calling my Tav a "Bad Girl" anytime, the reveal on the insight check hurts though if you pass, what a horrible thing to learn and agree be unable to address. I don't know much about D/S relationships, does being "degraded" mean something different in that romance culture? Perhaps if I understood the intention of that being included in the game, I could make peace with it. As it stands though, I think it is unnecessary. My Tav would be submitting to him (trusting him) by agreeing to kneel. I can just avoid doing the wisdom check but if I was playing this game blind though and I did the check and got that result, that would have been the end of our relationship, which makes me sad.

I would definitely like access to all the kiss options, I like the spicy ascended kisses, except for the expressions, but most definitely NEED gentle loving kisses to balance them out as the body language in them shows his love and appreciation, not just dominance. I don't want to be locked out of any of the kiss animations. I would like Tav to be able to touch him AND bite him, not the attack bite but a gentle bite on the wrist or neck with his face showing pleasure, before kissing him would be awesome. I'd like Tav to feel more vampire after transformation. I can change Tav's eyes to red but I'd like fangs too. Perhaps I need to put a few of these requests in the other thread Perfect summary below, appreciate it.

+1

It's a fetish for sure, but an odd one to include if that's what they're trying to do. The only hint that Tav likes to be degraded/humiliated that I've seen is the Abdirak encounter, but A) a fetish for being humiliated/degraded is different than a fetish for pain (though the two aren't mutually exclusive of course) and B) the encounter with Abdirak is optional and as far as I know, the insight check is always the same regardless of earlier play style. So that's why I personally don't like it and don't understand it.

But yes, to get it back on track, Marielle's list is excellent, and I would also say listed in the exact order I'd personally feel should be a priority.

Agree with this 100%

+100

+++++++++ Up !

My eternal question, and the main heartache of this romance, is what is the point of this check if we have no way to respond to it? If really we can just not pass it, not recognize it, and everything will be the same? To understand Astarion's feelings? He believes that "you degrade yourself by staying with him." In this you can see his deep inner pain, his contempt and rejection of himself, as if someone proud and worthy would never be there for him. DU may recognize earlier that: "You love him for more than his looks, but he'll never believe it." And... we never get the opportunity to prove him otherwise. Including (especially!), after this test. And it means "you like to degrade yourself". I honestly don't know the nuances of this word in D/s or in English, if translated into my language, the synonym would also be "humiliate". So Astarion thinks that Tav takes pleasure in humiliation/degradation and ONLY BECAUSE OF THIS agrees to kneel before him. And in the opposite case, what? A stupid, inane "No" which Astarion takes not as a refutation of this, no, but as Tav rejecting him on its own. From him and from his gift of eternity. And there's no way we can show our love for him, show how wonderful he is, that it's an HONOR and the best thing that has happened to Tav in her life to be able to be near him. That Tav doesn't like to humiliate herself, but for his sake, Tav will fulfill any rules of vampire ritual, do whatever he says to be with him, destroy the very concept of "degradation" and kill anyone who says she degraded herself by kneeling in front of him. Because it's not "degradation", it's a display of absolute love and trust.

If Tav could open consciousness for Astarion after this check, do what we've done repeatedly throughout the game, not only with Astarion himself during his confession in Act 2, but also with other companions on lesser occasions. And the only thing you can do here is sign off with, "I like to degrade myself." Like, "Astarion is only ascended by those who love to degrade themselves". I absolutely don't care what the game "thinks" about this, but... Astarion thinks the same way. One can only confirm this thought of his, and therefore confirm that someone who doesn't want to be degraded won't be around him. That it is degrading to be around him. That his pain and contempt for himself should be confirmed. So the dreams of healing his soul wounds begin after the epilogue, after the end of the game, in the headcanon, because it is only there, in the headcanon, that the "curse of dumbness" is lifted from Tav and the voice returns. And a chance to express her love and show Astarion what he's really like. Not just "because of looks". I'm assuming that: "I want your body" could be tied to that too. Astarion hears that Tav just "wants" him, "because of looks". He presents himself as a reward for helping with the ritual, again using himself as a tool. I wish he would tell me himself that he wants to possess me, that he really wants it for himself. Otherwise I'm willing to spend eternity with him without any sex, I want Astarion, not his body, and not "because of looks".

It's probably really better to go through this stage without specifically throwing any check and just trust him. Because it's red-hot rails that are great to burn. Just to have the game tell you your "preferences". And about Astarion's pain and trauma with no way to ease that pain in any way. And then they can introduce kissing patch 6, you like to degrade yourself! Really, with that face, with "fear, pain and resentment" it seems that I don't like it. So would have already determined who I am - the one who "likes to degrade" or not? If I like it, then why such faces, and if not, then how do I tell Astarion about it?

If someone could explain why you need "knowledge" that you can't react to in any way, that would be great. One can try to conceptualize and interpret the check itself, but to understand why it is even needed in this game is the million dollar question. Whether it's for interpretations, to discourage those who are afraid or unwilling to " degrade themselves" - only the gods of scripting know that, I guess.

Kisses Mod released: https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/9344

I play on PS5 so can't test, anyone tried these with Astarion?

Everyone interprets this differently, and there is no answer on this. It's ambiguous. Some people do like it, some don't like it, like with everything what's in the game. Maybe Astarion sees himself beneath you, because he thinks you would be worth a better or nicer partner. So he thinks you're too good for him. "He will always think that he is beneath you if you continue to stay with him." was Larian's translation in the language I played it (though I prefer another interpretation). Or the opposite, maybe Astarion sees you degrading yourself while partnered, because a) you will be his consort (to degrade means to lower in rank or status), and not on the same level as he is, who sees himself as the one who will rule. A consort will never be equal to the regent (e.g. see Queen Victoria and her consort). In the UA route, he uses the word "equal" (I think there is a reason for it, why he uses it), and in the AA you will not be equal. or b) you will be his spawn, he can control you, when the tadpole is gone. The insight check just shows you, where the relationship will lead: inequality. you are his. He has power over you. And the player, who doesn't want this or the risk, that it could happen, can stop it. It's just a way out, as there are many of these in the game, in almost each romance scene, you can stop it. Like with Harleep, you can still say no and stop it (there is also most times no option to discuss things, it's just a way out). The scene or the consequence is also not to everyone's taste. Also in the first romance scene, you can choose to stop it, if you don't want to sleep with him. The game warns you that it can be not to your taste and just asks the player: "Do you really want this?" Or maybe Astarion, who likes to humiliate, wants his Partner to submit, because he is into it. Into sadism and humiliation of others (btw. not only in the Abdirak scene, there are a lot of comments, where he enjoys it). So there are players, to whom this insight check can be an interesting scene: how he looks at Tav is very spicy and full of enjoyment. He likes power and to rule his partner and their submission. (In the scene, where he says "own your body etc.", he shows enjoyment, too. One of the best scenes.) And there are many other interpretations, to each their own, and there is no answer. Or because I am not a native english speaker. But what I'm getting at is: I would advise not to take it to heart.


I just downloaded and tested it. You'll get a spell and can cast the kiss of your choice on the companion/NPC you want to kiss. The romanced dialogue will then appear and you can ask for a kiss. Of course using a female kiss on two males doesn't go well, but you can use Wyll/Gale's kiss for example on Astarion
and it works out. The UA kisses on my AA didn't work. This mod will surely be improved in the future and could be nice for people, who want to get access to more kisses.

And now seeing the differences in the companion's kisses ingame: The idea of the AA kisses/Astarion's animation really, really fits. I myself only like the kinky AA style (shove, knees, grabbing, examining Tav), and one of Wyll's kiss, the dance, where he is grabbing Tav 's arm and pulling in (and Astarion's patch 5 kiss was nice). The other ones are really lame/tame for my taste and woulnd't fit a dark romance with an evil Vampire. Whatever will happen, I really hope, they will never remove AA's great animations or the kink (shove, forcing Tav on the knees), when you chose "let it hurt", and will just make it consensual.

It's been a while since I appeared my Vpn managed to log me in to a spam filter for a bit which is fine it gave me some time to break away from an earlier tangent :P

I am pleased the Mod that changes the faces appeared pity it's not on console where my game is stored and used daily
Currently on 20 Tav's and still 95% Astarion partnered I just can't escape my addiction to him.
I have Ascended on one character only at the moment my dark Urge who has been in stasis at the house of grief fight for a couple of months now because those kisses are foul I will not dump ascended I'm hoping they will fix the issue though Patch 7 isn't even in Beta yet.

Just a comment here to keep the topic alive

I was torn last night if I should Ascend Astarion on my Oathbreaker last night knowing the fresh hell of kisses will await me after the Ascension night I was torn I stared at the two persuasion choices for some time going Yes/No to hell with it I guess I'm persuading him to not Ascend won't be seeing that awesome scene again this time around.
The absolute torture of this decision is not fun I had the vampire spawn idea for this particular Tav but I can't face seeing that horrified face it does affect Player Agency and it does become a chore keeping him a spawn knowing we can't even kiss him in the epilogue though you can hug and kiss anyone else.

I still stand by time to update Mintharas kissing have the player screw up their face every time she's laced her lips with poison it takes a long time to adjust your body against poisons .

DJ Shadowheart should be pushing her lover away just as Astarion does ascended.

God Gale should also have Tav kneeling to him and have that kiss the ring moment .

Duke Wyll should be showing disdain to low born scrub Tav .