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Seriously, try playing Bg1 EE now - You may find that on a modern computer and with a lifetime of experience with modern games that you don't like it.

We old folks can get nostalgic and sentimental for stuff we did in our youth. Because we were young and hopeful instead of the jaded, bitter, wrecks we have become as we slowly circle the drain of life. (This is tongue in cheek) <-for Leucrotta

Also, the multiplayer in Bg3, *chef's kiss* - SO good!

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Seriously, try playing Bg1 EE now - You may find that on a modern computer and with a lifetime of experience with modern games that you don't like it.

We old folks can get nostalgic and sentimental for stuff we did in our youth. Because we were young and hopeful instead of the jaded, bitter, wrecks we have become as we slowly circle the drain of life.

Also, the multiplayer in Bg3, *chef's kiss* - SO good!
Works, plays fine right now? I don't see the problem. The continued recent release of stuff like the Wasteland series, Pathfinder series, Expeditions series, etc shows that the formula still works just fine.

If you want to count yourself among the "nostalgic sentimental, jaded, bitter wrecks" speak for yourself.

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Can confirm, tried BG1 recently, hated it. Entirely too archaic--even draconic--for my interests anymore, and a large part of why I'm glad to see Larian pushing as far away from the 5e ruleset as they have.

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I have played both BG1 and 2 within the last two years and I still love it. To me it's not just nostalgia. Yes it's old and outdated, but it still has the "magic". The soundtrack alone is just so good.

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Originally Posted by Liley
I have played both BG1 and 2 within the last two years and I still love it. To me it's not just nostalgia. Yes it's old and outdated, but it still has the "magic". The soundtrack alone is just so good.

Then truly you may not like Bg3. WoTR may be the better game for you if you have not played that yet you should check it out.

I'd send you a link to their forums but I get half a dozen warnings not to go near them because the connection is not secured.


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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Seriously, try playing Bg1 EE now - You may find that on a modern computer and with a lifetime of experience with modern games that you don't like it.

We old folks can get nostalgic and sentimental for stuff we did in our youth. Because we were young and hopeful instead of the jaded, bitter, wrecks we have become as we slowly circle the drain of life.

Also, the multiplayer in Bg3, *chef's kiss* - SO good!
Works, plays fine right now? I don't see the problem. The continued recent release of stuff like the Wasteland series, Pathfinder series, Expeditions series, etc shows that the formula still works just fine.

If you want to count yourself among the "nostalgic sentimental, jaded, bitter wrecks" speak for yourself.

It's been a while since I've played them, but aren't the Wastelands turn based?


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I certainly still enjoy BG:EE, BG2:EE and ID:EE. Sadly ID2 never got EE but with widescreen mod I still like even that one.


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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Works, plays fine right now? I don't see the problem. The continued recent release of stuff like the Wasteland series, Pathfinder series, Expeditions series, etc shows that the formula still works just fine.

None of those are particularly taking the world by storm. Maybe someday a studio will make a AAA BG-like, but that hasn’t happened since Dragon Age Origins, and since then each title has been moving further away from that model. The new one is apparently going to be a straight action game.

I love Infinity Engine games, but I know if I didn’t grow up with I would never bother putting up with dated mechanics and gameplay designs. Being built around D&D 2nd Edition doesn’t help. For as much as I loved it as a kid, that is a janky, convoluted mess of a rules system.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
Works, plays fine right now? I don't see the problem. The continued recent release of stuff like the Wasteland series, Pathfinder series, Expeditions series, etc shows that the formula still works just fine.

None of those are particularly taking the world by storm. Maybe someday a studio will make a AAA BG-like, but that hasn’t happened since Dragon Age Origins, and since then each title has been moving further away from that model. The new one is apparently going to be a straight action game.

I love Infinity Engine games, but I know if I didn’t grow up with I would never bother putting up with dated mechanics and gameplay designs. Being built around D&D 2nd Edition doesn’t help. For as much as I loved it as a kid, that is a janky, convoluted mess of a rules system.
The fact that developers keep coming back to the style of those older games says a lot to there being something timeless about them.

AAA rpgs shifting towards open-world arpgs is a whole 'nother beast in regards to what's at play there. But Bioware specifically has unfortunately developed a real bad case of 'trend chasing' and the decline in quality of their output is a pretty commonly voiced criticism/observation. Take of that what you will. But I don't think 'there are no AAA BG-style games' is really a particularly damning observation. Lots of well-loved genres have to contend with AA and Indie releases because the big studios don't go for risky or lower-performing niches more than once in a blue moon anymore. Larian's BG III itself is something of an anomaly in that regard. They just decided to go left instead of right in several areas which are a bit of a shame if you wanted something a bit more reminiscent of the OG saga (like me)

Yeah, I don't really agree that 2nd edition rules are nearly as much of a hinderance as people make out for BG. It really isn't that hard to figure out. I played it as a teenager with zero 2e experience (or indeed, tabletop games in general) and it took less than an hour to 'get' how the different stats etc worked.

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Played BG series recently... still two (espicially the second which is in a 3 way tie for best ever) of the best crpgs OF ALL TIME. OF ALL TIME. Not even debateable.

Second edition is the best dnd edition. The IE didn't even use all of it. BIO should have really added non weapon proficiencies/secondary skills. Probably the most dissapointing part of the series to me. But, even without it, unstoppable awesomesauce of epic fun.

If BG3 even reaches 75% of that, it'll be a good game.

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I don't recall exploding barrels in BG1&2.

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There are exploding barrels in the Enhanced Editions, as well as Icewind Dale 2.


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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
No. Which isn't to say it's a bad game, necessarily...I fully expect it to be really, really good. But playing EA has evoked certain feelings...as another poster put it 'you can't go home again'. BG III, by Larian's own admission in the newest interview *IS NOT* a sequel to BG I+II. It uses the city, and the events of the first two games sorta 'set the stage' for the setting, but it isn't really a continuation. I don't really get the feeling it wants to be a 'spiritual successor' either. Everything about the game just feels so radically different, I struggle to find a common touchstone in the game to remind me of the old game. It feels like it has more DOS2 DNA than BG if anything.

To be honest, I bounced off of 4e and 5e *hard*. As settings, as rulesystems, just WoTC's general design philosophy, to be honest. BG III reminds me *constantly* that I'm playing a Larian game, that I'm playing a 5e D&D game, and honestly I think it does a very poor job of reconciling the differences between those aspects and what came before.

For a game which basically only exists because of nostalgia and name recognition of a foundational and iconic series that concluded nearly a quarter-century ago, I'm not feeling what was great about the OG saga echoed in BGIII.

There's just too many elements, the setting, the way Larian plays extremely loose with the lore, the jank, design decisions that constantly break immersion (giant rolling dice in the middle of the screen, the 'MMO quest reward' pop-up boxes, etc), The use of spectacle, novelty and gonzo elements of the setting, the whole origins system, the main plot, etc. Even the stuff I love, there's just so much going on that feels so very counter to the original saga, it's basically impossible for me to put them in the same boat.

BG III feels to me like the 'Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance' games for the PS2: I might love them, but they feel like fundamentally different animals.

Very well said imo and mostly sums up my thoughts on it. I've also previously said BG3 feels more like a Dark Alliance game to me.

I put over 100 hours of time into my very first BG3 run, and had a few hundred in by the time I last played back with the druid patch. I expect to enjoy a thousand or more once the mod tools and good/complete mods come out. BG3 will be a lot of fun I've no doubt, but to me plays as a different type of game.

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Meh. I learned how to play 2nd Ed D&D when I was 8. It wasn’t hard, but it’s still a dumpster fire of a ruleset. Arbitrary race-class prohibitions, non-uniform stat progression where a 15 might be functionally identical to a 9, THAC0, a much more obnoxious spell slot system, it does not hold up. I’ve had friends who didn’t grow up playing it ask me about rules in BG and I just shrug and say “it’s 2nd Edition. It’s all jank.” As much as I love BG 1 and 2, I’d never recommend them to anybody who isn’t explicitly looking for a very retro experience, with all that entails.

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Originally Posted by virumor
I don't recall exploding barrels in BG1&2.

Holy crap everyone! This guy just figured out what is wrong with BG3. Here we thought there was a discourse about differences in RTwP and TB combat or the value of 3d animation in conversations. But all along it was the barrels.

I for one am relieved that we have the answer.

Whew that was a close one, I almost played a game that had modern video game mechanics in it.

Last edited by benbaxter; 22/07/23 09:51 PM.

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Interestingly enough, Icewind Dale 1, 2 or both, it’s been a while, but I think both, totally had exploding barrels.

Edit: I see I was late to the party here.

Last edited by Warlocke; 22/07/23 09:52 PM.
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There were explosive barrels in the Dark Alliance games as well.

Although I think it bears noting that of the ones mentioned, only Dark Alliance really had anything that could be labeled 'barrelmancy'

Originally Posted by Warlocke
Meh. I learned how to play 2nd Ed D&D when I was 8. It wasn’t hard, but it’s still a dumpster fire of a ruleset. Arbitrary race-class prohibitions, non-uniform stat progression where a 15 might be functionally identical to a 9, THAC0, a much more obnoxious spell slot system, it does not hold up. I’ve had friends who didn’t grow up playing it ask me about rules in BG and I just shrug and say “it’s 2nd Edition. It’s all jank.” As much as I love BG 1 and 2, I’d never recommend them to anybody who isn’t explicitly looking for a very retro experience, with all that entails.
In the end, I don't think it really matters whether a BG-style game uses 2nd edition rules or 3rd edition, 5th edition, GURPS, etc. They are all just mediums for the experience of the gameplay and plot, and I don't think any of them are necessarily a barrier in the way of enjoyment in any meaningful way. Certainly I don't see how anything about how 2nd edition spells worked, for instance-ever negatively impacted my enjoyment of the game. Even going back from enjoying systems I prefer more (3rd edition springs to mind), the 'jank' of 2e mechanics really never hurt the game.

On the other hand, I 100% believe that the 2nd edition really heightened BG I+II from a setting/lore perspective, which isn't really something BGIII gets to benefit from. 2e Forgotten Realms>5e Realms no contest.

Last edited by Leucrotta; 22/07/23 10:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
There were explosive barrels in the Dark Alliance games as well.

Although I think it bears noting that of the ones mentioned, only Dark Alliance really had anything that could be labeled 'barrelmancy'

Originally Posted by Warlocke
Meh. I learned how to play 2nd Ed D&D when I was 8. It wasn’t hard, but it’s still a dumpster fire of a ruleset. Arbitrary race-class prohibitions, non-uniform stat progression where a 15 might be functionally identical to a 9, THAC0, a much more obnoxious spell slot system, it does not hold up. I’ve had friends who didn’t grow up playing it ask me about rules in BG and I just shrug and say “it’s 2nd Edition. It’s all jank.” As much as I love BG 1 and 2, I’d never recommend them to anybody who isn’t explicitly looking for a very retro experience, with all that entails.
In the end, I don't think it really matters whether a BG-style game uses 2nd edition rules or 3rd edition, 5th edition, GURPS, etc. They are all just mediums for the experience of the gameplay and plot, and I don't think any of them are necessarily a barrier in the way of enjoyment in any meaningful way. Certainly I don't see how anything about how 2nd edition spells worked, for instance-ever negatively impacted my enjoyment of the game. Even going back from enjoying systems I prefer more (3rd edition springs to mind), the 'jank' of 2e mechanics really never hurt the game.

On the other hand, I 100% believe that the 2nd edition really heightened BG I+II from a setting/lore perspective, which isn't really something BGIII gets to benefit from. 2e Forgotten Realms>5e Realms no contest.

I actually agree with that for my personal tastes. Despite my criticisms, my enjoyment of those games is never hampered by the rules. But for new players who are used to slicker rule systems, it can definitely be a barrier. I’ve spoken to several people who started and dropped BG 1 or 2 for that very reason.

As to the setting, I can’t really comment, as I’ve only ever played in the Forgotten Realms in video games, never tabletop.

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And, I've spoken to players and watch utube let's plays with 'modern' gamers who enjoy and flat out enjoy those games. So, yeah, "I've spoken to 'several' players" is not evidence. laugh

2nd edition. The most beautiful part, is Bg series didn't even do it justice yet still does great.

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Originally Posted by Volourn
And, I've spoken to players and watch utube let's plays with 'modern' gamers who enjoy and flat out enjoy those games. So, yeah, "I've spoken to 'several' players" is not evidence. laugh

2nd edition. The most beautiful part, is Bg series didn't even do it justice yet still does great.

If Bioware had made BG3 you would be trying to calculate how many loot boxes you would need to buy to get the Dragonborn race unlocked.


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