Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Yes, for me the word " forced" in the game is associated specifically with Astarion's romance (and Astarion himself is "required" to be forced to give up the ritual). The rest of the romance in the game is rather just overly intrusive (sex-crazed Halsin, Tav-hungry companions, brothels, incubi, illithids, etc.), but it can all be safely avoided. In the main plot and side quests I didn't notice any moments where they tried to directly force me to do anything, there are quite a few different choices to make. The only time in the side quest when there was a similar feeling was when the game made me behave politely with Oblodra the first time I met her, no matter if you are a thrice evil DU, there is no evil roleplay in this quest, not a single even rude line towards this NPS is not provided, this is a bit of a contrast to other NPS who have done nothing bad to me, but I can be rude to them (for example, Mayrina, whom I personally felt truly sorry for, there are a lot of mocking and rude lines in the dialog for her, you can laugh at her misfortune, and in the dialog with Oblodra I am a priori a graduate of the Institute of Noble Maidens). Funny how even that NPS with the reduced roleplay when interacting with her is also relevant to Astarion's plot.

Personally, to me, the phrase "forcing the player" means rail narrative, where the player has no way to choose an appropriate cue and they are forced to say something they would never say of their own volition (as in the romantic dialog with Astarion). Or, when there is only one single possible action in a certain situation ( kneel silently, with no way to talk to Astarion about it or react in any way to the check passed, the player has to rethink and understand this scene on their own, realize the sacredness of this action, etc., but specifically in the story the player is forced to kneel). The scene with receiving the tadpole is not such for me personally, because here objectively there can be no other way out, here it is physically impossible to do anything, so Tav's helpless position is logically justified. With Astarion, by the way, even at the beginning of the relationship there is some forced element - the player is not given the opportunity to try to define the relationship, to tell anyone about it, to talk to Astarion about the relationship, that is, the player is forced to think that it is not a relationship, but "just sex". If the player does not accept such a model of relationship for themselves, and instead fell in love with Astarion and therefore agreed to his proposal, the player may not understand such a message of the game, at the first playthrough it seems that the relationship with Astarion for some reason is hidden from everyone, but the reason for this is not labeled and explained.

But, of course, everything has its degrees and limits. All of the above points can still somehow be accepted, okay, flaws happen, it's not critical, overall the game is great. Tav's remarks in the romantic dialog are terrible, but it's still just bad script quality, it's not traumatizing, facepalm - it's safe for the psyche, unlike the reaction to trigger scenes when watching traumatizing content. That face in the kiss is going over the edge because in those scenes the player is no longer just being forced or taken to the rails, there is emotional damage being done to players, people are being hurt by it. Yes, the 12 lines that befits a good RPG are still there.


Same here. Well, except for D&D, after all, D&D isn't forcing anyone. You can safely use convenient rules and mechanics in your game and ignore new canons, like what kind of monsters vampires should be, if this approach is not interesting to either the DM or the players (I remember our DM reading out loud the rules for Dungeon Master on the topic of evil games, where it says that evil players must lose, and we all laughed about it). D&D is about a perfectly designed game world and usable mechanics, the rest is up to you. And to suddenly introduce traumatizing scenes into a game under the pretext of "showing a true vampire from D&D 5th" when previously a game had a wonderful, player-pleasing homerule that was working, and the rest of Astarion's plot had stayed the same - that kind of inconsistency and chaos is something no good DM would allow in his game. Only if they privately dislike a particular player, want to pick a quarrel with them and remove them from the table. Patch 6's kisses are a gross example of inconsistent development. Dear Larian, please fix this. Modders should not do the work for developers.

Yeah, I think for me when the story is inadequite I just fill it in with my own story. It's not that I do not see the problems or faults with for instance the romance dialog options. I guess I'm just a person that forgive and forgets easily. However it is impossible to forgive and forget the Patch 6 AA kisses as they are in the main game right now. The expressions on the faces of the player character makes it impossible to fill in or edit the scene with your imagination. The player character says it clearly with the silent scream of terror and the hate/contemnt/disgust at the end of EVERY ascended kiss animation.

My character looks at Acended Astarion as a lover, a master, someone she can trust, someone that would protect her with his life. She would never make those faces when kissing Astarion.

Yes, I also just change the story in my headcanon, and I even like to rework scenes in my fantasy sometimes, imagining how Astarion would react to other words or actions. In that dialog I also used to just say "my" line out loud, well, it's written nonsense, well, what can be done about it, nothing can be done, but then everything is very exciting and heartfelt. And the kisses of the 6th patch, really, impossible to ignore and impossible to forgive. For me it's already beyond the line of bad writing, after that it's impossible to treat the game as before.

My character would never make those face either. She loves Astarion more than anything, more than her own life. She has always been at his side, and will fight to the death with anyone who would try to harm him. In her mind there is no such thing as "being afraid of Astarion", if someone said she should be afraid of Astarion she would look at them with surprise and disdain.

I realize, those who are familiar with DnD long it will have no effect whatsoever.

Baldur’s Gate - is setting Forgotten Realms is Dungeons & Dragons, owned by Wizards of the Coast - whose parent company is Hasbro.
So, the trend will get worse, I have no reason to think it will get better. Like games BG4, other projects.
The fish rots from the head.

I was hoping that at least this game could be satisfying, aesthetically pleasing. No, not even here at the moment.
That's why the plot was failed almost immediately, those who know DnD well and even without it can see how many plot holes, reworks, unfinished. I would really give money to have a look at the original script.
DnD started for me in the fall and ended in the spring. How can I play a game based on DnD5, which is BG3, when all my characters are victims of abuse in kissing.
I feel like I don't.
For me, it's all one ship I won't sail.
Maybe I'll just not care after a while, after all - the fact that Tav even has a line in End Game if you skip the night of the turn and kiss, scared properly by evily evil:
- Turn me into a vampire, yes, that's what I want.
…
And other positive responses, which are regardless of Tav\DU's turning, whose lines are in the majority.

Shows that whoever did this kissing thing didn't follow the plot of this romance with the evil character at all.
However, this attitude of writing, sloppiness, treating those actually playing for evil along the way rather than reloading, also discourages the product.
The 7th patch will be the last, next will be only hotfixes for critical bugs, Larian even gave the rights to this project.

Keeping an officially terrified face to kiss for the only male character to play in an evil path - a very, very poor performance. Even worse with that 7 months of kissing (happy) matched most of the play paths in this romance.

Agreed. +1

This is exactly how I play.

I will say, the more I get into this recent replay post patch 6, the more I'm starting to see that these facial expressions were very likely *NOT* intended by the devs. So far into act 1 I am seeing Durge's same scared AA kiss face:

When you tell him he can feed on you and he says he will come to your bed "when you're at rest".

When talking to him about Wyll.

When talking to merchants.

Unless the devs meant for us to also feel victimized by seeing someone's wares...there seems to be a major issue in quality control of facial expressions throughout the entire game in general. Tav has the same patch 6 scared/sad faces when engaging in mundane/nonthreatening conversations.

That being said, ffs, Larian, maybe review the faces for the romance scenes to not accidentally create nonconsensual kissing, yeah? This doesn't excuse anything. If it's an accident, own up and fix it.

But! Just wanted to encourage others here, seeing the game from a post 6 perspective, those faces are everywhere, and I really, truly, don't think they were intentional.

I realize the deterioration tendencies of Wizards of the Coast, in terms of trying to "put players at a school desk" and teach them "goodness and morality", have been around for quite some time. The Pathfinder system as an alternate setting is much better in this regard. But 5th edition is very good in terms of game mechanics and the combat system is much more convenient and dynamic than in 4th edition. We remade the characters and introduced the 5th edition mechanics altogether, and the campaign plot stayed from 4th edition. The problem is that at the table you are your own masters and can use the system as a toolkit for your story, the position of the creators and their attitude does not affect you, but in a computer game you are limited by the narrative of the story. Literally - you will have to say the lines that do not correspond to your roleplay and your attitude to your favorite character, you will be tried by all means to "convince" to shove your favorite evil character on the "path of correction", so that he " will learn" something there (if you like "lessons" so much - why not make games for schoolchildren, remove cruelty and R rating, then people who have already managed to get a higher education will not have any questions to you?). Ignore his suffering, don't "exaggerate" his "bittersweet" (ugh!) ending, which, by the way, looks very realistic as the result of an evil character's poorly executed quest. Oh, you've decided that you are the protagonist, that you can prioritize yourself and don't want to "learn" anything? Look at your character's face! You're a victim of violence now, watch Tav dislike it, reboot, you're not roleplaying here, this is where "goodness is taught".


Yeah, me too. It's bitter not only for what is in the game, but in no small part for what it could have been. The inconsistencies, the deleted interesting scenes, the weakening and "trimming of fangs" of a character, the attempts to turn an unbroken strong and vibrant character into a victim on which they try to show how one can't be different and how "should" treat people like him. And patch 6, which makes a demonstrative victim out of a dissenting player already.


That's genius. It looks like the "evil evil" only had access to kissing content.


And the other companion paths are fine. The Nightingale mod perfectly showed me how wonderful Larian's efforts were for all the other players. I was very touched by some of the kisses, they fit perfectly and expressed what I wanted to express through romance and tenderness for Astarion. These kisses in the original are meant for Gale. He is allowed to be loved. I am supposed to look at Astarion with the expression of a terrorized victim, with resentment, disgust, and pain. To clench my fists and not touch him. If anyone can do a worse job in terms of romance than this, they will deserve a medal and a place in the Guinness Book of World Records.


Unfortunately, it's hard to call the words "scared, sad and pained" that modders found in the game code an accident. Replacing them with "happy" facial expressions just made it possible to fix the facial expressions in two kisses in the "Happy facial expressions for Ascended Astarion kisses" mod. "Bitey kiss" is a single .gr2 animation file that must be edited manually, so it may take a while to deal with it" - we may see this more complex fix in the future. I realize that it won't help players on other platforms right now, but it clearly shows what people can do with their own hands, thanks to the ability to work with code, on their own, at the expense of their own free time. But did a major game company with huge resources do anything in all this time to fix their mistake?


But it is quite possible to assume, given the fact that motion capture animations exist separately, and facial expressions are set by program code, that this could have been the initiative of some individuals, and not the management as a whole (assumption, it is clear that there is no such information). The main thing is to fix it.

Well then, those three words, "scary, sad and painful," are the perfect characterization for an AA novel in Patch 6.
I really hoped it was a ridiculous oversight and not intentional.

I loaded some saves, I don't see any other facial expressions being wrong. Just in the epilogue post-battle, where one of Tav's neutral faces was changed into a sad face, which is very inappropiate, as you haven't choosen the given answers at that moment, and Astarion was saying a positive line. But asking merchants, or that line, you mentioned, Tav has neutral faces. I haven't seen this elsewhere. As Marielle said, the bite kiss with Tav's pissed-off faces are a special animation, which the modders couldn't manage to change so far.


The majority. It's character assassination - of the player's character. And the story around them. Tav turns 180 degrees in these scenes. You can choose dozens of positive, happy, consenting lines, you can love your partner, but Larian suddenly decided to allow only negative emotions, when you want to kiss in patch 6. Whatever is responsible for it, for Tav's behavior and faces, there was no understanding or knowledge of the story, not even an idea of what a roleplaying game is, and not even knowing, what a "kiss", Tav asks for, is meant for. An everyday kiss is not meant for showing an odd SA/DV scene or a sexual deviant abuse fantasy of certain people, it's not meant to show a victim or a sexual predator disconnected from the story or the characters to harm players. Poor souls, to expose such an insensivitiy and the lack of understanding or worse so well. Even the "favourite" line implies, that there was no idea of the romance while recording them, as Astarion uses other words for his partner. And if there was knowledge of the story, then it would be a malicious thing to do a character assassination after release in a valentine's kiss for letting people abandon not only the path, but the game and the Studio itself. It's like cutting out a kiss-scene in a movie and replace it with a DV/SA scene, disconnected from the story. People would be disturbed by it and asking, what the hells did they do?

It's like making any other companion sad and rejecting in the kisses and the player is forced to play an out of character sexual predator, disconnected from their story, whenever they kiss their Shadowhearts or Karlachs. I am sure, most of players would be sick, to suddenly be forced to roleplay a sexual predator and see their romance partner suffering, whenever they ask them for a kiss. Imagine, they are happily answering "I thought you'd never ask" or "Go on!" and after Tav sexual assaults them, they are responding: "Thank you" while having a sad, painful and suffering face.

If anyone wanted to make Astarion being a psychopathic, sadistic sexual predator or abuser, hated and feared by his partner (or whatever the intention was), then they would have needed to write a story. To WRITE a story. Not showing a weird kiss looking like sexual abuse fantasies with no connection to the story, and without a reason. I just saw the greatest story of gaslighting and abuse in a serie, and it was the most beautiful, cruelest, destructive and artistical "love" story I have ever seen, even without any romance. Comparing to the romance of Astarion..(I know, you cannot compare it, the serie is a masterpiece), just the romance scenes (not his arc) and the given answers for Tav.. It is partly really horrible written here in this game. The romance could have been a little masterpiece by itself, if they would have had someone, who is capable of writing such a thing. Without the great mocapping, voice acting, the animation (e.g.romance scene, kneeling) and Astarion's personality in general, the romance scenes of AA wouldn't impress anyone, I would bet. The fact, that Larian implemented Tav behaving like a victim of sexual abuse or behaving like in a setting of abuse fantasies just shows, that this story, written by different people, is becoming more and more an ugly inconsistent construct and far from being a well and passionately written romance story. Alone the tons of weird (unnecessary) break-up scenes or lines. Good and well written elements are negated by horrible and inconsistent ones. And Tav behaving like a victim of abuse fantasies in patch 6 is so out of place, that you're asking yourself, is there even intelligence out there?

Yes.. well those faces were intentional by whomever, the question is, what was the reason. No idea about a role-playing game, no idea about the story, rewriting a story, making fun of people on Valentine's Day, misunderstanding in the workflow, misunderstanding of kink or BDSM. If it was just accidently putting wrong facial expressions, it could have been fixed hotfixes ago. But if they would state this, I'm not here to refute that as long as they correct this mistake. That's the important thing.

It's as if that was the goal - to make all players see the romance that way. If you replace the word "scared" with "hatred", it is also a perfect characterization of how such a game makes me feel as a result, and what kind of residue it leaves behind. Despite all the warmth that I personally continue to feel for Astarion himself apart from the whole narrative.


A very accurate illustration. Although in the movie it would have been noticed by all the viewers, the movie would have been guaranteed to be negatively evaluated by critics and would hardly have been given any awards. In the game, the SA/DV scenes only affected a fraction of the players, against an overall "positive background" this was successfully "shoved under the rug". For those who don't play this route, the tales of "losing his soul", "true vampire 5th edition" and other stuff in the same style are great. It's not even a novella, I've played novellas (for example, "The Life and Suffering of Sir Brante") - there the character is set by the script, but the player is taken into account, you can roleplay completely different temperaments and worldview for the main character, the logic of the narrative is not broken anywhere, the immersion is complete and remains until the end of the game. This doesn't rise to the level of a novella, it's really just character assassination. I can’t help but remember my naive delight at starting the game immediately after purchasing it. Including when, after a brief acquaintance with your future companions, you create your character in the editor. “Oh, it’s so beautiful even in the editor! Oh, my future friends, how cute... "I've bitten cuties like you" - hehe, cool..." Creating a character who will be killed. To then get to all this.


If I tried to imagine such a picture in my game, if Astarion were in Tav’s place, I don’t know, I would probably feel really bad. That's even worse than "on myself" in my opinion. Although... From the point of view of “innovation in romance”... If you show “abusive relationships”, then why not give the opportunity for role play to the abusers themselves? Maybe they also want to express themselves in the digital space? Only with a choice, not forced, otherwise, as we know from ourselves, no one wants to be a forced victim, the choice of the other side must also be voluntary. If Shadowheart wants to flirt with Halsin, let the opportunity arise to bring her to her knees, strangle her and punch her in the face. To get her to stop looking at other men. If Gail is sad about Mystra, punch him in the face: "Be a man, not a wimp! If I hear about your ex-girlfriend again, it'll be worse!" Lae'zel and Minthara can be allowed to fight back with a smooth transition of the "love scene" into a fight with a stabbing, a call to the city guard and the subsequent trial with the division of jointly acquired property from the camp chest. Why is it that only our Tavs suffer?


+100. Astarion really is already written by Stephen Rooney, better to make someone from scratch, then there would be no complaints. If the story was consistent and logical, then maybe this character just wouldn't be liked right away. Or there would have been a desire to choose another companion for the romance or another game, but without the shock, the destruction of the game world and the indignation of not understanding the nonsense of what was going on. Of course, without Astarion's personality, mocap, voice acting, and animation, such a story is simply no good for anyone. But it wouldn't have drawn much anger from anyone either. The many unnecessary scenes and breakup lines that a player who loves the character and wants a good story will never use, that's a good point too. Generally speaking, the main audience for a romantic companion is those players who love the character, want to express their love for him and feel his love in return. You can make other options for quarrels, breakups and whatnot, maybe some people want that, but clearly not to the detriment and not INSTEAD of the main love story.

Oh, how do I love this thought. I am very sure, there will be quite a lot of people who like to.. "roleplay" these scenarios. There is a torture scene already in the game, for those, who like to roleplay torturing. But why not torturing the Love affairs, play with them, hurt them, destroy them until they are just a pitiful little being, who can be used as puppets. Where is the cruelty? Where is the evilness? Does it only exist toward players? For whom is this patch 6 victim scene?


I remember quite well, that Astarion disliked Tav being interested in other companions, how relieved he is when you choose him, a threesome is out of the question for him. But suddenly in Act 3, whether it's AA or Spawn, it's okay for Tav to mess around with Halsin. There's not even a conversation about that if you reject Halsin. I know, they added it, because, they wanted to have Halsin for poly, but for the romance story of Astarion this makes absolutely no sense and it took me out of the world. The same, with the drows, Harleep, Mizora, the only thing, which fitted was, that Astarion didn't enjoy the sex in the brothel and when talking with him after you've cheated him, you clearly recognize, he doesn't like it, while pretending he is okay with it. But would he react like this? As AA? Who is saying, he needs someone, he could trust completely? I clearly doubt that. There could have been such an amazing dialogue, where AA jumps in, taking you away, as you are his, or if you rejected Mizora, where AA is approving, even abusive or threatening things could have been said: "Such an obedient pet. You know where your place is." or "I would have slit your throat if you had been naughty. So don't you ever dare to think about someone else than me." I know, there is a new recording for Spawn now at least, they realized by themselves, the sex stuff with other NPCs cheapens the romance story and makes part of it inconsistent, as it is written now.

They are all very cute, and all shows romance and happiness. I ended up just using the Happy mod for the AA kisses. I think if they had nailed the expressions in the AA kisses in Patch 6 it could have been amazing. Personally I would not have wanted any of the other ones if they made the AA kisses right.


100%. You said it perfectly.


The expressions where intended from those that put this thing togheter yes, but I'm having a hard time thinking this is what Larian the company intended. It feels like a botched job, more than malicious intent. I agree as long as it is corrected in the next patch I will probably forgive and forget. Well.., not entirely forget.

Yes, me too, I doubt that Larian the company, as a whole, intended to make players getting harmed by it and leaving their game. They are responsible for not communicating the issue. But yes, believing in a botched job, that's maybe why we're still here, waiting for an update.


I like the new AA too.. (if Tav would consent or at least, if forced, you see they are into Astarion) and find some of the other companions too tame or too romantic (except Astarion patch 5) - Romantic sentimentality from Astarion would annoy me. Special taste and so. Thank you Larian

And why, by the way, weren't such kisses added for Astarion Origins? Then those who like those scenes wouldn't need to have their victim as the main character anymore, they could play Astarion Origins, get better immersion and more opportunities for abuser roleplay.


Wow, I didn't know, I've never been interested in anyone but him, thanks for the info. I was wondering too, why the hell did they decide to get specifically Astarion into this "threesome" with Halsin? To me, that (as well as the horrible commercial for sex with a bear) always seemed like a mockery of the character. Just breaking the story for the sake of introducing polyamory into the game. I watched that video, and I don't understand why AA agrees to the brothel, maybe he doesn't want to show his vulnerability, deny his weaknesses ("I'm an Ascended now, and I can do anything"), and at the end he realizes that despite killing Cazador and Ascending, the trauma he's been through hasn't gone anywhere. And realizes it so explicitly that Tav can spot it. Sure, you can avoid all of this in your game and your romance story will be pure and deep (until the kisses of patch 6), but it's also a shame how much content is hidden in scenes and dialog about cheating, brothels, Halsin, Mizora, and the like. A story of deep and fidelity love turns out to be much shorter and more cut down than the story for all of that. Astarion won't tell you anything about your fidelity. There won't be anything additional to the account of you skipping all those sex orgies. Whoever drags Spawn-Astarion to the brothel with Halsin (very heavy video and heavy scene) - well done, get the prize for "healthy relationship". But you get punched in the face and you make the face of the aggrieved victim "for all the good stuff". Just makes me want to read some good ol' romance novel after all this to plunge into an era of different "values".


I like romantic kisses, to be honest, but I would certainly like a little " bite-bite" from Astarion. Dream - if I could kiss him fervently after the bite, like that kiss from the Nightingale mod where Astarion kisses Tav on the cheek and Tav kisses him passionately afterward, and if there was a bite instead of a kiss on the cheek. And the trickles of blood that would run down their lips... It would be beautiful. The way love, tenderness, and a predatory vampire come together.

I would have loved to have the Patch 5 kiss in there as well, as a soft kiss. And have the bite kiss start very similar to the Patch 5 kiss so you would never quite know if Astarion is gonna bite Tav or not before hand. It would make the kisses more exciting for longer I think. I like most types of romance, but for Ascended Astarion it has to be dark so it matches his character, imo. <3

Oh, that's a great idea - a similar kiss, and not knowing in advance if Astarion will bite or not! I would love that. I also think it would fit well with Astarion's character to have Astarion sometimes initiate the kiss himself, without Tav's request, through a cutscene. After a fight, after getting his approval, after a dialog, in the evening at the camp or in the morning when approaching him, just not necessarily, but so that it's random, sudden, so that it looks like his wish. It seems to me that his character combines both power and tenderness, and he himself is also in great need of love. The Nightingale mod has Astarion's facial expressions done perfectly, he keeps his grim romance, but you can see how he reacts to Tav's loving touch, he needs that too. If the "Happy facial expressions" mod adds the "Bitey kiss" with corrected facial expressions, I will definitely test it in my game. That kiss hurt me the most, even though I like the bite itself, and I wonder how it would be received with the happy facial expressions. If I can accept it, and can combine both mods in game - that would be very interesting - full spectrum of emotions.

But, what the player chooses as a result, whether the player wants D/s kisses or wants a mod with gentle kisses, it has no bearing on the fact that there should be no "scared, sad and pained" facial expressions in the main game. This needs to be fixed so that real people don't suffer because of this content.