I wasn't into computer games until 3 years ago when a friend of mine introduced me to Diablo II. Since then on, I've been in hack & and slash Rpg craze. Currently, I'm playing D2, Sacred, DD, Dugeon Siege, Blade and Sword (A Kung Fu version of D2 - not that great but still fun though a bit hard). I love the combat aspect of the games, and the looting, too.

Now I don't want to limit myself to such games. I read in the other forums about Icewind Dale, BG 1 & 2 and NWN. I heard that those games employ Dungeon and Dragon rules (2nd and 3rd editions). I'd really appreciate it if anyone can explain what they are. What makes them different from real time rpgs? Can anyone give links to D&D rules?

Thx a lot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's a big question, but here's some starters.

D&D rules began as rules for a pen and paper style game that could be played live by a bunch of friends (i.e no computer needed! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

One would take the role of Dungeon Master and control the play.

The fights are all based on the rolls of various dice. I can't remember how many but they have different numbers of sides and not just the usual 6.

The idea is that a basic fight is made more complex and interesting by adding all sorts of 'modifiers' for chance to hit, agility of player or whatever - I can't remember the technical details. Some of your stats you keep, and build on as you go, but other parts of the outcome are determined by the dice rolls.

Similar things happen in many computer games - even non D&D ones but the calculations remain hidden under the surface, and the player only sees the end result.

The system is copyright so you may not find too many of the rule books on the net as the book is the bit you buy. I think you can also buy preset stories to follow. Not sure of all the details.

Anyway, the computer games follow the rule sets (with minor variations). However, you don't see all the dice rolls and don't need to know the rules to play. With some you can get the numbers to appear on screen if you're interested though.

With some (Like Baldurs Gate 2) you get a thick manual with all sorts of tables and charts to pore over if that's your thing. However, it's not essential to do so.

In general, the difference is less emphasis on hack and slash (although there's still plenty of that) and a bit more story, quests etc. Oh and more party oriented too.

I'm sure that someone can come up with a better explanation than that - and correct my mistakes - but it's a start. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

d &d rules
I never played d & d, but I was sent this link when I had a similar question. I hope it helps. You don't need to know everything to play NWN. Since the info in the link is voluminous it might serve you better to use it for the answering of specific questions once you have one of those games.

Off Topic--I liked the thief character in Blade and Sword; I thought it was a nice touch. The game was cool at first--too bad it turned out to be boring after awhile.

Now that you've played the Hack 'N' Slash games, you'll find it easier to play the AD&D's.

The main differences are:

1. You always pause the game before and during combat. You can't hack 'n' slash you way though them. You pause, issue commands to your party, watch them carry out their orders, pause and issue more until you win the battle.

So the comabt is a lot different than what you're used to. If you can handle this, then you'll be fine. This is the main problem for most people making the transition from Hack'N'Slah to D&D.

2. Weapons, armour and "chance to hit" become factors. The lower the armour class, the better. There are different abilities as well.

3. Gameplay is gerenally much slower, as the D&D games are more story orientated. You can have the same battle 10 times before you defeat your enemy, with all your party intact. This calls for more thinking during battles, as opposed to rushing in with brute force. The quests are more involving; the story, politics and religion more complex.

This is just basic information, and it isn't strictly true. But I'd tell it to you this way to simplify things. Most people try to use their Hack 'N' Slash techniques to play, and it doesn't work. They become frustrated and lose interest. Think about your attacks, and rest often.

Just remember, don't expect to be rampaging through the countryside and you'll have a world of new RPG's to play. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


One other thing...

You don't really need to know about all the complicated AD&D rules.

One very huge different: BG series, NWN and even IWD (advertised to be the dungeon crawl-oriented offspring of the Infinity Engine) all involve a lot more story than D2, Dungeon Siege, or any game of the same ilk. This means you have dialogue choices that go well beyond accepting/rejecting a quest. For BG2, the NPCs that join your party will have personalities of their own, and some will leave you if you do not accede to some of their requests and/or have a vastly conflicting moral code. Some quests can be resolved via diplomacy and investigation rather than the "kill this, fetch that item" routine.

You don't need to know D&D rules (AD&D for BG/IWD), but familiarity with it will help a bit. On the other hand, if you're already experienced in playing RPGs, it shouldn't take too long to become accustomed to the rules. Some things are a bit more complicated than what you're used to -- charisma, wisdom, the persuade skill in NWN, and so on.

Thank you every one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> You guys couldn't be more helpful.

My friend just installed NWN on his PC, and to my surprise, he told me he was put off by the turn based system of the game. Anyway, he's a hardcore fan of h&s rpgs so I guess that's why. He let me play the game, and I must say that it's a bit confusing. But I guess it's because I'm not used to the controls and stuff. Well, I only played the game for like half an hour so I don't want to make any judgment right now.

I love Divine Divinity for its story line and deep plot, not just the combat. So I might like one of the games I mentioned above. In fact, I find the pause function pretty neat as it buys you some time to think of the next action.

Cleglaw
Thanks for the link. I might find some of the information there useful. As for Blade and Sword, I think the game is quite fun despite all the bad reviews. The ancient China setting is certainly a nice diversity. But what I like most about this game is the gruesome action. All those combo atacks are just awesome. And the super attacks can be very useful against bosses although it can be difficult to draw the corresponding symbol on your screen. My favorite character is the girl with blades and when she uses one of her super attacks she graciously move and attack the adjacent monsters at super speed.

Oh, back to the topic. I think I'll give BG2 a try because I've heard all the good things about it. NWN has some pretty graphics but many people say it's boring. I can't choose both because my budget is tight. In the meantime, I'll stick to what I like most: Hack & Slash Rpgs... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I forgot that I wanted to ask Cleglaw about this.

Cleg, I know that ur a huge fan of hack n slash rpgs (looking back at ur previous posts). How did u find turn based games when u first tried to play the games. Did u like fall in love with the games right away or was it like a gradual process?

Thx.

Though I am not Cleglaw, I'd add a thing:

It depends on the game. It always depends on the game. There are as much bad games in Turn-Based RPGs as in H&S. Actually in some TB games such as Baldur's Gate or NWN, you will not likely notice the turn-based element. Those are... "semi-turn based". The real turn-based RPGs are Fallout or Temple of Elemental Evil.

Yesturday I went to the book shop, loaded myself up with books, ok, not really, just 5 books, and also bought a beginer set for D&D. quite fun, and intresting, if only I can get my parents to play with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Wizardry 8 is a turn based game which I hated. There is a thread about it here on the forum which I started--the D&D fans like it but I found it awful.

I never finished NWN. The official sp game was good at 1st, but gets boring, but as somebody else observed you really don't notice the turn based play terribly much. I have heard that the online NWN modules are better. If you really like Sacred, Blade & Sword and D2 you might find the game a bit slow at times.

BG2 was given to me, but I haven't tried it yet.

@cleglaw

BG2 is the best game i've played in the RPG side of things. The story is fantastic, and they gameplay as well. The game is massive (even without the TOB exp) and will keep you going for ages.

If you play it long enough to see some of the story unfold, you'll be hooked! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Back on topic:...

No one should be put off by the "Turn based" or "AD&D" side of games. Like everyone has said, you won't notice the turns, as it all happens in real-time, and the AD&D rules are dealt with by the computer.

I totally agree with xAcesx. I think to be able to enjoy a game you have to understand the game first and that can take hours of playing before you can actually say whether you like or hate the game. I heard some people in the forum calling a game rubbish after they played it for a few minutes. I believe there are games that we can enjoy the moment we start venturing out but there are those that require a few hours of playing before we can feel 'in' it.

I'll try to get my hands on BG2 asap I'll let u guys know whether I like it or not.

Peace <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you're interested, here's a free online version of the main D&D manual:
D&D 3rd Edition, Core Rule Book I

EDIT: Just saw your link, Cleglaw. I like your's better and am replacing my favourite. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know the set you mean. I started there too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> See if you can get four players involved. It'll really make a difference! I tried with one person playing four characters and it lost all of the role playing and just became a game.

Cool. I think I can get some people, maybe in a week or two.


oh man, I've been totally loosing thought all day. I had to check 20 secounds after I wrote this to make sure I didn't say something i didn't mean to.

I played with a DM and 3-6 players. It does make for a better role playing experience that way, However, I have played with just me and the DM. I pplayed only two characters and was able to keep them seperated because of my experience and the DM. My DM was very good.

i'll add my own two cents (well, maybe one cent <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )worth to the excellent responses here. imo, if you're just starting to play by the d&d rules and have never played pnp like me, you might want to start with neverwinter nights (nwn). bg & bg2 are both great rpg's, but iirc, they are based on the 2nd ed rules, which are very, very restrictive to me.

you'll love the multi-classing freedom that 3rd ed. offers. you can become a half-orc monk for god's sake. (very, very powerful char. btw). besides, if you're just learning how combat works in d&d, it's easier in nwn because you can rest anywhere to restore full hp's and you can obtain early in the game something that will teleport you to a healer. in bg1, if you need to rest, you have to go find an inn. if you rest in the wilderness, only 1 hp will be restored.

don't be discouraged if combat seems a bit slow in d&d initially as compared with hack&slash, button-mashing action rpg's, as your char will only have 1 attack per round. you will often see your char just moving around &/or parrying blows rather than attacking. but as you level up and gain more attacks per round, you will begin to appreciate the system.

as an added incentive, if you play nwn, play its two expansions as well. the 2nd xpac, hordes of the underdark, will take you into a lot of epic battles and your character will have a chance to take epic classes as well. it improves everything that nwn has to offer.

Shootnrun - Welcome to the forums. I'm a huge fan of RPGs and have been for eons. I played D&D years back, too. The rules have been amended many times since I've played in a group. I have NWN and even after the amount of computer RPGs I've played, I found it confusing. It is helpful to know the core rules, but not necessary to memorize them (who could?) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

DATD is right, though. Every liking and becoming comfortable with gameplay depends on the game itself. (As well as your individual preferences). I started out playing more 'adventure' oriented games where questing was involved. I didn't like the H&S part at first. But, as I grew comfortable with different games, I've grown into enjoying some H&S. I liked Sacred for about the first 10 hours - after that, I found all that fighting tiring. The reason I liked Divine Divinity so much was the way it blends elements of H&S with storylines and questing. Unfortunately, I've been struggling with NWN and recently uninstalled it. I'm sure there will come a time when I'll try to play it and have fun in the process. (That's the whole point, isn't it?) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> I guess I'm a fickle RPGer. *g*


Oh, and thanks for posting the rules site, HandEFood. I've bookmarked it. I don't have a printed copy of any D&D books, so this will be a good reference source.


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

There are some big difference (rule wise) between 2E (aka AD&D) and 3E (3rd Edition DND) and some minor ones with 3.5 (3.5 DND).

Basically: 2E is harder, where rules are reverse (armour has to be as low as possible, while your Thac0 - To hit armour class 0) has to be as low as possible as well).

3E & 3.5E have it 'normal', where both have to be as high as possible. 3.5 itself has some minor and some major changes over 3E, but in essence they're the same rulesset. Still, you probably couldn't use a 3E character in a 3.5E pen&paper game (and the other way around wouldn't work either probably). Because my game started in 3E (pnp game that is), I'm still using those rules.

Overall you need little knowledge of those rules to play the Infinity Engine games however. The only stuff that may be 'difficult' to understand at first may be spells, that's about it.

I have my very own view on (A)D&D : All those C-RPGs (computer-based role playing games) which feature the (A)D&D rules are to me like clever product placement for TSR / Wizards : People are playing these games, get accompanied to the rules, and want to play them later as "pen & paper" (P&P) games as well, eventually.

And considering how far and wide the distribution of these games is, it certainly adds to the world-wide market of the P&P stuff that these C-PRGs are sold so widespread (meaning world-wide).

Unfortunately, there are very few other C-RPGs using other rule sets, like DSA or Midgard, for example, or small ones created somewhere in countries or areas we might not know of, so even if there *might* be better systems than (A)D&D, we won't see them because of its dominance, and publishers not producing games with *other* rule-sets.

That's basically what I meant with my article at RPGDot, which was greatly misunderstood (greetings to the guys at RPGCodex ).

very good point. that's why i found out that nwn is so much easier to understand and to play than games based on 2nd ed.

Another unfortunate thing about Video RPGs (PC and Console both) that are based off of ANY pen & paper ruleset is that they never take the ful ruleset into account. Take any V-RPG... Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for example. "Based off" of 3e... in truth it holds little resemblance at all with the real ruleset. Many rules are omitted, altered, or "dumbed down" so gamers will have an easier time hacking into the next skeleton. When the game has the option to display dice action on screen, this is mostly for show, as the game itself reduces most probability down to precentages, or "flipping a weighted coin". The true experience is lost, not only because they're used in a fashion they were not meant for (age-old p&p vs. video argument), but because the player doesn't have to actually deal with the rules. Granted, a game made full use of any p&p ruleset would be a pretty big endevor (both to create and to play), but isn't that similar to playing D&D with your 3-foot stack of rulebooks sitting next to you as you argue the ability to upgrade the intelligence of an intelligent weapon with your DM? (BTW, for those that have run into DMs that argue that point, have them e-mail Wizards. The mental scores of an intelligent item CAN be upgraded using the rules for upgrading items in the DMG. The Wizards rules lawyers confirmed it for me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)

However, these are simply the ramblings of a hardcore D&D fan with many years under his belt...