Larian Studios
Anyone think a game is better?





No didnt think so.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
By the way, who said that M&M is "officially the best game ever" ? Please post a source!
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Anyone think a game is better?

StarTopia
Dungeon Keeper 2
From a discussion about a discussion about HOMM :

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Posted by Magog
Creative, yes....

Quoted from HoMM forum:

If I remember it well, the biclop was a cyclop with... two eyes! The biclop would have been much more powerful than the cylcop, because he had no problem with depth perception lol


Love to see great minds at work.
PC games
D2 LoD
minesweeper--yes minesweeper--simple, but enduring--The only game I played when I bought my 1st desktop that I still play.

console
Goldeneye
Well, Ultima VII comes to mind.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> !
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Anyone think a game is better?


Any other RPG...
You didn't specify WHICH M&M.
It seems here is the second part of "the best game ever made" topic.

I have never heard that the game was nr. 1 in any ratings. Have I missed something?
You missed POTATOE!!!!!!!!!!
uff, I can live with that.
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Anyone think a game is better?


Any other RPG...


Ditto.
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Anyone think a game is better?


Any other RPG...


Ditto.


Especially if you are referring to that poor excuse of a game called M&M 9
the best game ever?? Naaah..........it's not even the best game in the rpg genre....
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Especially if you are referring to that poor excuse of a game called M&M 9
ummmmm...........you what? M&M 9 a poor excuse for a game? what are you on about its well good.
Might and Magic 6 is the best one of the lot i reckon.
I never played it but i heard there decent games i dunno bout the best ever though.I still like my Morowind plus expansions
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StarTopia
Dungeon Keeper 2
oh yeah <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> those are well good games (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
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Especially if you are referring to that poor excuse of a game called M&M 9

Don't mention <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I lost my respect for the M&M series when I saw the 9th... Not that I had much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.
Well, 6th was pretty good. Not good, but good enough. I remember it as my first rpg so it does bring back good memories, but M&M is nothing compared to Ultima or Wizardry.


Dungeon Keeper 2 is my personal all-time favorite game in all categories. It has it's flaws, I know, but I got it 5 years ago and I still occasionally reinstall it and enjoy as much as the first time I got it.
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StarTopia
Dungeon Keeper 2
oh yeah <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> those are well good games (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I like build-'em-ups.
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Don't mention
I lost my respect for the M&M series when I saw the 9th... Not that I had much .
Well, 6th was pretty good. Not good, but good enough. I remember it as my first rpg so it does bring back good memories, but M&M is nothing compared to Ultima or Wizardry.


Dungeon Keeper 2 is my personal all-time favorite game in all categories. It has it's flaws, I know, but I got it 5 years ago and I still occasionally reinstall it and enjoy as much as the first time I got it.
i cant believe you didnt have much respect for the M&M series, there absolutes classics. Also M&M 9 isnt that bad, did you complete it? And its good to hear that someone elses first rpg was might and magic 6, mine was too, also it was pretty much my first game period. anyway i have the same thing as you have with dungeon keeper with M&M 6. never played ultima or wizadry maybe i'll give em a raz...........
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I like build-'em-ups.
good for you.
Ask General Alix, she's a fan of the M&M series. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
what in divinity? how does that work? what does she say?
no, a member of the German forum, Alix. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
oh, ok.
Stating the M&M series to be the best RPG is a pure exaggeration on your behalf IMO, Thor.

I played 2-9 and liked them, except 9. This was the first one I had to give up shortly before the end, because bugs and crashes, freezes made it impossible for me to continue the German version. 3DO only had a key control patch and stated, they would only support Heroes of MM - a few weeks later they went bankrupt.

MM has no strong interaction with the world
no complicated/interesting story line - it's just kill, loot and level up
no headbreaking riddles, no innovation
and it's always the same procedure => magic/fantasy first then SF afterwards - due to little changes I feel familiar at once and don't need to test around a lot before starting to play. Still fun? Yes - for me.

I can't even say what the best for me is in a subjective opinion, played too many RPG - maybe the one I play at the moment and keep hooked on playing - this changes naturally and is surely in the interest of Devs/publishers who want to sell <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> .

Does my preference add weight to the game's quality? Nope.
Does my liking/disliking qualify/disqualify me as a gamer? Nope.
Does approval/dislike of another gamer/review/award take away the fun I have with a game? Nope, I allow myself to make up my mind on my own.
And what about all those self-proclaimed "popes" claiming to know what the best game is, I really dare not to care for their judgement? Yep, I leave them to build their games-award altars, keeps them busy.
Oh, yeah - and what about "high standards"? <shrug> I have my own fun-standard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> .

On a more serious note to all:
I've asked myself very often why a game even needs the judgement of being the best <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ... if I like/dislike something => [color:"yellow"]says nothing about quality only something about my preferences[/color]. And I don't need approval due to awards, a "best of" medal or whatsoever. I wish, others would see this the way I do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - would take out the heat in hot "religious" discussions about good/bad games <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> - as if the quality/non-quality/liking/disliking of a game would add to/take away personality quality.... Well, maybe it does... in an insecure one - one who needs outer support/approval/awards to cover up inner deficits maybe?

I thought a long time Ultima VII was [color:"yellow"]my all-time best[/color] - but I know why: the first love is the strongest <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> . It was my very first RPG on PC (I've been a pen&paper RPG player) - therefore my dedication. So, is U7 really [color:"yellow"]the[/color] best? Nope, just [color:"yellow"]mine[/color] - therefore my delight with <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> , was like coming home again and reviving my old first love..
And if someone doesn't share my delight? No prob, roll in with your favourite, maybe I haven't played it and feel curiosity.
Kiya [Linked Image]

PS: I think this credo shows clearly why I normally keep out of these futile "the best of..." threads, I'm an anarchic atheist with a Machiavellistic streak, even in games <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
i never said that was the actual best game ever, just mine. and you may like ultima 7 or whatever, and someone else might like divinity the most and that would be there favourite game. also you said something about there being no need for a best game to be discovered which is a good point but there is also a need for a personal best game on opinion as this allows disscussions between fans of different games and this is a far more interesting way of seeing gaming. having favourites and opinions is a necessity or otherwise there nothing to talk about because everyone would see all games as equal.
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i never said that was the actual best game ever, just mine. and you may like ultima 7 or whatever, and someone else might like divinity the most and that would be there favourite game. also you said something about there being no need for a best game to be discovered which is a good point but there is also a need for a personal best game on opinion as this allows disscussions between fans of different games and this is a far more interesting way of seeing gaming. having favourites and opinions is a necessity or otherwise there nothing to talk about because everyone would see all games as equal.


Uhm, duh!

But saying that your favourite game is the "official best game ever" is something very different.
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Thor:
also you said something about there being no need for a best game to be discovered which is a good point but there is also a need for a personal best game on opinion as this allows disscussions between fans of different games and this is a far more interesting way of seeing gaming.


Sorry, you didn't read my sentence carefully enough => I said, [color:"yellow"]there is no need for judgement...[/color]- there's a difference: If I say I like game XY most because of my AB preferences => ok. Then it's no judgement but merely my subjective opinion - equal value/equal weight to those who prefer game CD for the same or other preferences. And the far most interesting way for me to see gaming is this => playing it and having fun. And maybe (if interest is there) to claim WHY this game is fun for me. Translation of a German phrase => What an owl is for one is a nightingale for the other.

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Thor's thread header:
So Might and Magic is the official best game ever. Anyone think a game is better? No didnt think so.

Postulating game XY as nonplus ultra for all times and all gamers ("the official best yadderyadder...") IS no opinion. It's a killer phrase in communication psychology. These phrases are commonly used to silence people, close their ears or cause arguments, turning into the boring power/authority game of who's right/wrong. Same goes for rhetorical questions that neither require nor ask for a real answer but are only used to stress one's own statement.


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Thor:
...having favourites and opinions is a necessity or otherwise there nothing to talk about because everyone would see all games as equal

Only if it's meant AND expressed as a subjective opinion thus leaving room for differing ones, not as a postulate, expressed in absolute manner, turning into a pro/con crusade (Ouff, religion again).

And FYI => I see games as equal <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> Each game providing me with fun, wanting me to spend time on it is as equal as the next game I want to play and enjoy. Au contraire, if I would believe game XY is the absolute best one for all times, aeons and centuries - I doubt I could ever play another one then. I'd not be able to see each game as unique and discover gaming anew. I would deprive myself of flexibility and curiosity to discover the next fantasy world... I'd probably start to compare this game to others, fret, mourn about the difference and lose my openness. Not fair towards the new game IMO. What's the point in a ranking hierarchy for games?

In case you wonder => yes, I DO recommend games to members of my library - but not due to my preferences but due to their preferences. And I ask for sincere feedback, so I know if I judged the person's preference correctly - specially then when they prefer a genre I'm not interested in as a gamer personally. You'd be surprised how many gamers dislike RPG (and still see the light of day happily <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> )
Kiya

PS: This whole post is my personal opinion, free to take, agree/disagree <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - with one exception => killer phrase/postulate/absolutism/generalisation/rhetorical question, that's communication psychology.
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i never said that was the actual best game ever, just mine.

That's the fun thing with written language: very easy to misinterperet. Until you said that you had me convinced otherwise... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Ditto. Written language is very easy to twist and there are many ways to interpret it -- even different punctuation can change a sentence's meaning, let alone a whole word. Observe:

A woman, without her man, is nothing.
A woman -- without her, man is nothing.
A woman without her, man, is nothing.

(And now you see, kids, punctuation is important. Off-topic, but bad punctuation irritates me to no end, and now you see why.)

Observe:

Might and Magic is the official best game ever!
Might and Magic is the best game ever!
Might and Magic, in my opinion, is the best game ever.
Might and Magic is my favourite game ever.
I liked MM6 quite a bit, except the end,... one spends 90% of the game building characters based on sword and sorcery (might and magic if you prefer) then in the last 10% of the game all that goes down the drain in favour of damned blasters. Worse, pause and tactics go down the drain too, as it becomes a real-time FPS.

That was the only annoying thing I found in MM6, but they repeated the same formula again in MM7 and again again in MM8 I really started hating the series before even playing (or rather trying to play) MM9.

So IMO, MM6 was a good game but the series as a whole was below par.

Bravo Kiya!

Kiya Veni vidi vici.
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I liked MM6 quite a bit, except the end,... one spends 90% of the game building characters based on sword and sorcery (might and magic if you prefer) then in the last 10% of the game all that goes down the drain in favour of damned blasters. Worse, pause and tactics go down the drain too, as it becomes a real-time FPS.

That was the only annoying thing I found in MM6, but they repeated the same formula again in MM7 and again again in MM8 I really started hating the series before even playing (or rather trying to play) MM9.

So IMO, MM6 was a good game but the series as a whole was below par.
as if they reproduce the blaster ting inn 7 and 8. i have 7 but have not got that far but you may be pleased to hear that 9 does not include and laser guns. Maybe the reason they included them is that the development team were trekies.
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Thor:
also you said something about there being no need for a best game to be discovered which is a good point but there is also a need for a personal best game on opinion as this allows disscussions between fans of different games and this is a far more interesting way of seeing gaming.


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Sorry, you didn't read my sentence carefully enough => I said, there is no need for judgement...- there's a difference: If I say I like game XY most because of my AB preferences => ok. Then it's no judgement but merely my subjective opinion - equal value/equal weight to those who prefer game CD for the same or other preferences. And the far most interesting way for me to see gaming is this => playing it and having fun. And maybe (if interest is there) to claim WHY this game is fun for me. Translation of a German phrase => What an owl is for one is a nightingale for the other.


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Thor's thread header:
So Might and Magic is the official best game ever. Anyone think a game is better? No didnt think so.


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Postulating game XY as nonplus ultra for all times and all gamers ("the official best yadderyadder...") IS no opinion. It's a killer phrase in communication psychology. These phrases are commonly used to silence people, close their ears or cause arguments, turning into the boring power/authority game of who's right/wrong. Same goes for rhetorical questions that neither require nor ask for a real answer but are only used to stress one's own statement.



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Thor:
...having favourites and opinions is a necessity or otherwise there nothing to talk about because everyone would see all games as equal


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Only if it's meant AND expressed as a subjective opinion thus leaving room for differing ones, not as a postulate, expressed in absolute manner, turning into a pro/con crusade (Ouff, religion again).

And FYI => I see games as equal Each game providing me with fun, wanting me to spend time on it is as equal as the next game I want to play and enjoy. Au contraire, if I would believe game XY is the absolute best one for all times, aeons and centuries - I doubt I could ever play another one then. I'd not be able to see each game as unique and discover gaming anew. I would deprive myself of flexibility and curiosity to discover the next fantasy world... I'd probably start to compare this game to others, fret, mourn about the difference and lose my openness. Not fair towards the new game IMO. What's the point in a ranking hierarchy for games?

In case you wonder => yes, I DO recommend games to members of my library - but not due to my preferences but due to their preferences. And I ask for sincere feedback, so I know if I judged the person's preference correctly - specially then when they prefer a genre I'm not interested in as a gamer personally. You'd be surprised how many gamers dislike RPG (and still see the light of day happily )
Kiya

PS: This whole post is my personal opinion, free to take, agree/disagree - with one exception => killer phrase/postulate/absolutism/generalisation/rhetorical question, that's communication psychology.

talk is cheap! get to the point....
Get to the point, Thor?
Easy => If your intention is to discuss favourite games in a pares inter pares atmosphere - then I advise refraining from killer phrases implying generalism, absolutism, arrogance, inflexibility.

If your intention is to force your opinion unto others => then keep the way you phrase, but state this intention clearly then, maybe in this manner:
"I, Thor the Allmighty- Lord of War, thunder and lightning - state this... (put in what you think) as a postulate for once and for all - carved in stone, the one and true statement. Any one disagrees? No, I don't think so - good, no need to throw my hammer then."

Short enough? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

And my personal point about games is this => There is no official best game ever, period - only personal preferences.
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talk is cheap! get to the point....


If that's not argumentative/confrontational, then I don't know what is.
Wasn't Thor the stupidest god in the norse mythology?
I personaly pity Loki: the poor guy had to live with a bunch of cretins like Odin and Thor...
odin was the primary god wern't he and thor had a big hammer so i wouldnt annoy him.
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=THOR

Well, Death, according to the 2nd paragraph of this article you're right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

AFAIK Donar/Thor was the God of peasants and serfs, too, besides being in charge of thunder and lightning war etc => needs a simple... errhm...
Kiya <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
ROFL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I like that description.

Thor is a dude with cool hammer, that is why I am the Thor the Mighty, ummm
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
Hammer Mjöllnir is considered as sexual symbol... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
Kiya
LOL ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
never heard that before..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
We ARE talking about Vikings here. Im sure there is a great deal of sexual innuendo in there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kitty.gif" alt="" />
About Vikings : http://www.cultures2.de
http://www.thelairofdarkness.com/level.itml/icOid/6081

there you are, Thor => the bind runes on it. Interesting thing is this => the rune meaning war and male sexuality are one and the same. Implies a not-so-friendly conquering way of approaching the other gender. I've always felt uncomfortable at the thought, this hammer is a symbol of protection for marriage, fertility and war at the same time... "Get a lot of kids, slave females and deliver cannon fodder for the next village to burn down?"

For me as a modern feminist a really disgusting thought and insight into a very male-oriented, vicious, brutal streak of this culture. I consider the whole Norse mythology to be the most brutal and life-defying one. In case you wonder: Mythology of all cultures was an old childhood interest, later on I tried tracking down when the matrilinear cultures were forced out of human memory.
Kiya

PS: My knowldege does not come from the internet (too shallow) - I prefer books for that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
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Hammer Mjöllnir is considered as sexual symbol... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />


So Kiya, what about Odin's large spear (Gungnir) and Tyr's ever-swinging Sword (Tyrfing) ?

On a side note Thor is mainly the god of thunder/weather/agriculture, the one-handed Tyr is the 'real' god of war in the norse mythology.

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Wasn't Thor the stupidest god in the norse mythology?


Thor was fooled thrice when he visited the giants: He lost a drinking contest because his mug was connected to the sea (but he drank so much that he actually could walk home instead of taking a boat), he failed to move an old woman in a wrestling contest (the old woman was actually Time) and he failed in a strength contest to lift a cat (the cat was actually the world-encircling Wyrm, and he almost managed to lift it). So yes, damned strong but not the brightest bulb in Asgard.

Sorry for going totally <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add: Kiya I sent you a PM
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Hammer Mjöllnir is considered as sexual symbol... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

So Kiya, what about Odin's large spear (Gungnir) and Tyr's ever-swinging Sword (Tyrfing) ?

Odin and his cloak represent air and can be used for projection of power. Perhaps this is like him throwing his spear? Do you know any legends about Odin and his spear? They might help interperet things.

As for Tyr's sword, no idea. Again, got a story for us?

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On a side note Thor is mainly the god of thunder/weather/agriculture, the one-handed Tyr is the 'real' god of war in the norse mythology.

Thor belongs to the people, in a sense. He is their strength, their support and their protector. Unless I've interpereted it incorrectly?
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Do you know any legends about Odin and his spear?
Thor belongs to the people, in a sense. He is their strength, their support and their protector. Unless I've interpereted it incorrectly?


Maybe so, he might be the most human of the gods, he is even cuckold: Loki is said to have slept with Thor's wife Sif. Loki actually took a lock of Sif's hair as a 'souvenir', that pissed off Thor and the other gods so much that they demanded compensation, Loki went to the dwarves and returned with the compensation: A magical ship for Frey, the Hammer for Thor and a Spear and a gold-making ring for Odin.

Some compensation for a lock of hair huh ? Oh I think Loki also brought a wig for Sif,... I wonder how Kiya will interpret that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
As a beard was a sign for manlihood (Islandsaga: Njall was jeered at because he had none) - the long hair was a symbol for womanhood. So... depriving a goddess of (a part of her) womanhood was indeed an insult - and I guess this: if things wouldn't have been put straight again... a deep gender crisis amongst gods? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> (and no psychotherapeutic god in sight)

Oh, dear - I opened a box of Pandora - since this morning my colleagues and I are discussing Norse mythology hotly- if incest is better than killing e.g. Small troops invade religion and history shelves - quotes from this and that book are called all over the corridors... and I'm buried under books. ARGH!

On a more serious note: Sif's golden hair symbolized wheat and harvest in a natural rhythm, she was associated as Goddess of Harvest - so stealing her hair, was like stealing the harvest and endangering food in general. Though... I can't really understand this godly fuss - cause plundering, killing, piratery in greed for land, fame and riches was considered very manly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Please, keep this in mind => the vikings (vikingr = pirates, marine warrior) were only one tribe among the North-Germanic races - these myths were common amongst all Germanic tribes - and frankly: they all had something in common: violence even under the leading females.

Expansion due to primogenitur (Germanic birthright: only the oldest son is allowed to keep the land) and an exaggerated cultural dominance about the importance of having many sons was one of the reasons for Viking expansion (there were more, but I won't bore you with that) => sooooo, cutting off her hair should have been considered as a "natural act". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Consolation by buying her a wig made out of pure gold => in order to stop blood feuds you could pay your way out - part of the Germanic laws. So. Loki saved his butt <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Spear Gungnir => "never misses his goal".... errhm, we've got age rating here, correct? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> - what I found interesting was this: Wodan-Odin hung on a tree, pondering about the meaning of runes, wounded by a spear - if I take away the runes and look at the symbolic character of his "sacrifice" => Jesus crucification (sp?) comes to my mind.

Tyr's sword => ah, well, I think this is self-explanatory, he was the official Germanic God of war.

Take psychoanalysis => nearly everything is reduced to death or sex... my art teacher once even analyzed a water tap in an advertisement that way. Took me a few weeks until I could eat tomatoes freely again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
Warning: this may be offensive to Christians. For the record, I am not against Christianity at all.

When Christianity came about, they started using symbols from other religions to try to convert and consume peoples religios beliefs. The crusifix is an adaptation of a Pagan symbol (I don't know it's original meaning). The Pagan symbol was a cross but with all arms the same length, as opposed to the bottom arm being longer. By using this symbol, the Christian church could say "See, we're the same as you. You should follow the rest of our beliefs too." Obviously it wasn't quite that simple, but that was one part of it.

Interestingly, Alex and I were wondering through St. Pauls Cathedral in Melbourne where Alex noticed a number of the older crosses did have arms of equal length. She asked the people at the kiosk about this and all they said that it was the same thing.
Yes, christianity adapted a lot => take Eastern <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Ostara => origin was the Germanic goddess of spring and morning. She was celebrated during that season. "Ostern" is the German word for Eastern - see the origin?
I guess, christianisation wouldn't have worked in Europe if old Germanic traditions wouldn't have been assimilated into the new religion...


and a totally different adaption of old Norse stuff occured in fantasy literature, specially the heroic one => LOTR by Tolkien, surprised? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - Gandalf (name => "magic Elf") with the appearance of... Odin (Wodan)... with his long cloak, large hat and the staff. This was the pic North Germanics (specially the Scandinavian tribes) had of the allmighty father of gods.

Adaption goes the other way round, too => clues point out the fact that Ragnarök (end of the world in a grand long... bloody fight) visions were developed during the Viking (800-1100 a.c.) era, presumably under Christian influence of the Apocalypse - interesting, hm?

I think it will be impossible to figure out which Germanic myths were really pre-christian and which were additional fiction due to christian influence - cause the Edda was written down in the 13th century and the author was... errhm... a christian <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
lol, in the end we cannot say what's actually lying beneath our feet - I mean we have influences from almost every culture in us - in some cases greater, in some cases smaller.

The Christianity is imho a big mixture of everything that was (in) - Europe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
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Adaption goes the other way round, too => clues point out the fact that Ragnarök (end of the world in a grand long... bloody fight) visions were developed during the Viking (800-1100 a.c.) era, presumably under Christian influence of the Apocalypse - interesting, hm?


Longtime before the Apocalypse and Ragnarok, in Egyptian mythology, the End of The World was thought to happen when the big snake ate Re (the sun). It just struck me that Ragnarok too involves a big snake (eating its own tail). Come to think of it, there is one famous snake in Christianity too huh ? But this bugger stars in the beginning not the end. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Kiya, in your comparaison between Gandalf and Odin, you could have added Sleipner and Shadowfax (their respective horses) similar in all things except the number of legs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
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Longtime before the Apocalypse and Ragnarok, in Egyptian mythology, the End of The World was thought to happen when the big snake ate Re (the sun). It just struck me that Ragnarok too involves a big snake (eating its own tail).


The wyrm, Jormundgand, would stop eating his own tail and come to the surface to do battle. Interesting thing is that Ragnarok also involved the wolf Fenris (alt. spelling 'Fenrir) swallowing the sun.
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Longtime before the Apocalypse and Ragnarok, in Egyptian mythology, the End of The World was thought to happen when the big snake ate Re (the sun). It just struck me that Ragnarok too involves a big snake (eating its own tail).


The wyrm, Jormundgand, would stop eating his own tail and come to the surface to do battle. Interesting thing is that Ragnarok also involved the wolf Fenris (alt. spelling 'Fenrir) swallowing the sun.


The aztecs have their own winged snake (I could never get the spelling for it right), and the chinese their dragon (since it has no wings it looks more like a snake too). One could almost think there was a common proto-civilization, from which many others descend.
Quetzalcoatl, actually an otld hero or king or so,; when the Teltecs conquered Mayan culture, they oppressed them many things, and this one way one of them. Quetzalcoatl existed before them, but not as agod (as far as I remember).

The Maya also believed in a complex cycle so they had to offer the most precious things to the Gods they could give - Hearts. As "food" for the Gods in order not to let them become weak and so impose the End of the World.


About swallowing the sun : Nut, the Aegyptian goddess did this every evening, and every morning she gave birth to the sun again.

Quoting my self : A PM (or PN) I had once written to Rincewind :

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From: AlrikFassbauer

Hello.

Well, I'll try to translate and explain.

Plese note that it is extremely difficult for me to do both into English - I don't have much experience with English archaeological terms.
Also, having the book before me and writing at the same time creates some kind of difficulty with the hands - I definitively need more of them for such tasks !


As a sidenote, the Maya saw a rabbit in the moon (I've heard the chinese do, too), and not a face like other cultures (here in Germany, for example )

- The maya used a number system based on 20, unlike or 10-based system.

- They used actually two calendars : one for normal life, and one for aspects of religion.

- This "Ritual Calendar" (translated from German) consists of "a combination of 20 day names with the numbers 1-13".

- This calendar ended after 260 days = 20 x 13 days.

- The solar year is - according to the Maya - 365.2420 days long.

- As a sidenote, the very few Codices Science has inherited from the past contains almost only computations, mostly about dates (within one of the two calendars). That led to the opinion the Maya were a friendly folks of astronoms. Untrue, as archaeologists have proved. But these ciomputations actually showed that the Maya were almost unique in Mathematics - since the letters for numbers were the far earliest which had been decoded by scientists, we know much more about their mathematics than about anything else. That's in principle how the view of the Mayas as excellent astronoms and Mathematics arose.

- the normal calendar consisted of 360 days and consisted of 18 "periods" of 20 days , what we would call months in our system.

- the end of this year of 360 days had an appendage of a "month" called Uayeb , which was said to be cursed or at least to be a month of bad luck. It was only 5 days long.

- correlating both calendars, every date in a text or list was identified by a "name" consisting of the day of the one calendar and the month of the other one (at least that's how I understood it). As example there is printed " 1 Imix (day) - 5 Pop (month).

- the book also says that since one calendar was so much shorter than the other one, they both needed 18.980 days to meet again at the same day. THat was 52 solar years.

- Every time after those 52 years, the priests said that if the gods failed to start a new zyklus, the world would be doomed. Thus they killed people , cutting their hearts from them, as some kind of "offer" to the Gods - food, energy, I don't know how to call it. The Maya thought they just needed it for not to fail.

- the Toltecs, after conquering the Maya civilization were seemingly almost obsessed by that, creating the so-called "Flower Wars" which had no purpose except catching people for such rituals. Very bloody indeed.

- the Maya had a "year zero", which was used as a fixed point to start their calendar. Christian calendars use the estimated Birrth of Jesius, other calendars have other such "fixpoints".

- the "fixpoint" of the Maya calendar was at "13.0.0.0.0.a Ahau, 8 Cumkú" is - the book says - the 2. of August in the year 3114 v. Chr. (christian calendar). Scientists don't know what this date means or could mean.

- This date comes from the "long counting " or "Initialseries" (terms from the book), which consisted of 5 periods : Baktun, Katun, Tun, Uinal, Kin. A Kin in this system is a day.

- this sytem exists parellel to the calendars ( at least that's how I've understood it).

- there is another system, the "Short Counting" , as well.

- now comes the interesting part . I'll quote the book :

"After the same computation, the era created at that point [ the date I've quoted above) would end at the 24. December 2012."

- a Kin is the same as a day in the "Initialseries".

- an Uinal is a "month" consisting of 20 days

- a Tun is a collection of 360 days -> a year of the "normal calendar".

- a Katun is 20 years.

- a Baktun consists of 20 x 20 years ( 20 Katun = 400 Tun = 144.000 Kin).

- 20 Baktun = 1 Pictun

- the solar calendar consisted of the following months :

- Pop, Ztotz, Tzec, Muan, Pax, Uo, Zip, Zac, Ceh, Xul, Yaxkin, Mol, Chen, Yax, Mac, Kankin, Kayab, Cumkú (look at the date above) , Uayeb (the bad-luck-month consisting of 5 days).

- the days names were :

Imix, Ik, Akbal, Kan, Chicchan, Cimí, Manik, Lamat, Muluc, Oc, Chuen, Eb, Ben, Ix, Men, Cib, Caban, Etz-nab, Cauac, Ahau.

Please keep in mind that these are names probably translated into German . I know from some Egyptian names, for example, that they are a bit differently written in English literature.

- Very important ! : These names could also mean actual things of normal life, too, like Dog, or Water, or other things. Everything could be interpreted in many way. That's what the decoding of the Hieroglyphs / Letters of the Maya made so difficult.

- The Maya had a symbol for the Number 0 (zero) . It looked usually like a shell.

- If you have any questions, then ask me. But I don't know whether I can anwer *all* of your questins and with nearly unlimited grade of detail.

- Last note : If you can get this book, I'd recommend to buy it, because it's very interesting and very detailed, concerning the letters and their meaning(s).

That's All (Genesis).

Alrik.
she probably has a tab at the hostpitale.
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