Well my first experience posting on reddit went as well as I thought it would go...gone in 60 seconds.
So I'll have this be the last post I make in quite some time because I'm taking a break from playing BG3.
Now I know there is a discussion goin on about Karlachs and Mintharas cut content (which I also hope gets fixed) on these forums whereas Shadoheart discussion has been taking place on some other forums and boards.(yeah) But I want to make this last post in hopes that Larian does something about it. (I think this is the first time where I actually got rattled by a video game lol - time to touch grass)
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-Shadowheart, romance, kinks and character ruination-
Isn't that a juicy title!
(My apologies if the formatting is off, my first time posting on reddit.)
Now that we got that out of the way, nice of you to join me. I'll try to keep this short but do bear (ugh) with me.
Spoilers obviously!
In all honesty I've been playing this game excessively for the past month and despite my enjoyment of it the only feeling I am left with is disappointment.
I've tried it all, I've explored it all and the deeper I delve into it the more this game falls apart for me.
From the poor performance (memory leaks, frame rate drops) to the bugs (quest breaking, items disappearing, flags not being properly set) and even the big bad cut content (companions talking about events that can't happen in the game, NPCs that are not finished showing up - Alfira/Dragonborn bard etc.) my main gripe with this game has always been its writing.
As always writing and what someone enjoys has always been subjective but despite me never expecting stellar writing from video games, Baldur's Gate 3 has lead me to the point where my suspension of disbelief just isn't working anymore.
From the Emperor to the Githyanki, from Karlach to Minsc every so often you can run into some scene that make no sense and would leave you baffled. But if I were to start writing about all of it this post would never end.
So I will stick with one thing that's been irritating me to no end. Maybe I'm just mad on the internet but the audacity of the writers to put this into the game has left me laughing.
I honestly don't know what the intent behind this was. Not seeing how it would be interpreted as? Trying to be stealth like and shove their fetish into the game at the expense of a character and the players enjoyment? Or strait up malice? But whatever it is I haven't seen anyone that has discovered it like it.
And what am I talking about, what am I making so dramatic as to pull you in so you would read my post you ask. Well romance of course, Shadowhearts to be more precise.
When I play RPGs I like to role play as different characters and experience the world through their eyes and one of those character (3rd playthrough) ended up romancing Shadowheart.
From her ties to the main story to her romance everything seemed nice but unfortunately all of that fell apart because of one little companion banter popping up.
Shadowhearts story is one of self discovery and choosing how to deal with her trauma. Kidnapped from her parents at the young age the only thing she has know was abuse. Forty years of her life have been in the embrace of a jealous and uncaring goddess that she so desperately tries to impress. But despite her ties to Shar throughout her story you will find out that there is more to her than meets the eye.
If you decide to go through her romance you will experience something sweet. From heartbreak to finding love, a true fairytale romance if you want to call it that. (At least the reject Shar route) Obviously there was an idea when it came to this character and they leaned into it heavily. And that is exactly what everyone that blasted through the main romance with her ended up getting.
But underneath that sickly sweet romance hides something else. One writers poorly written fan-fiction that is entirely divorced from her story and if you accidently stumble upon it (damn youtube) you will realize how it ruins her character.
What do I speak of? Halsin, polyamory and cheating. I won't go into the whole zoo and bear thing that Larian was more than willing to brag about but even he ended up being a shallow character because of the overreliance on kink and not enough development.
If you went through Shadohearts entire story and romance you would know that she is not really keen on sharing and even if the opportunity arises for something spicier she wants the focus to be on her and the main character. And yet this is the party banter that shows up after finishing her storyline, unprompted without ever having a conversation about it or pursuing both she flirts with another companion after professing her love to the MC.
Maybe its a bug that came from all of the flags being broken and that banter was meant for a MC that is pursuing both, maybe. But seeing what other little things show up after finishing her romance lead me to think otherwise. The famous drow twins scene that you admittedly need to go out of your way to initiate still leaves a bitter taste behind, implying that these thoughts are there even if you don't go through with it.
Despite talking about love and spending the rest of her life with the romanced MC.
Despite being portrayed as someone that is opposed and upset with the idea of opening her relationship and sharing, (which by the way happens with every single companion in the game and even if you don't romance her she tells Wyll when he flirts with her that she will not play a second fiddle to anyone).
She straight up goes into thirst mode for him to the point where the MC is being ignored, an the funniest thig about this whole situation isn't even the fact that both Shadoheart and Halsin share the same writer is that if you reject Halsin, Shadowheart disaproves.
I'm sorry but I can't look at this scene and the sharing/poly conversation where Shadowheart is down to opening the relationship with Halsin (again despite rejecting everyone else and talking about not wanting to share and be your spare lover) as nothing more than some writers self insert/fetish. Halsin is obviously a writers pet and for some reason characters that were established a certain way should change so he can get the fan-fiction that he wants. (Even Astarion that doesn't feel comfortable with sharing is okay with Halsin)
Even better is the fact that the drow and poly scenes are divorced from the rest of these companions stories to the point that the game still treats it as if it never happened. So it does feel shoved in.
This is a perfect example of one writers idea ignoring the focus of any video game and who or what is meant to be the focus. (the player)
Even if someone wants to bring up the Mizora scene and Shadowhearts past about her being mind wiped every week and encouraged to have fleeting relationships/casual sex with other acolytes (which is another discussion about abuse and tricking an amnesiac) she still isn't into sharing/open relationships and is mad you didn't ask. Open relationships/poly =/= hook ups.
So no I don't want to go through a whole game where a character is portrayed one way but as soon as you finish their story suddenly the writers cuck fetish rears its head and contradicts everything the character had said up to that point.
If they really wanted that option they had the perfect opportunity with the dark Shadowheart (embrace Shar). Because at least in that version it makes sense seeing how Shadowheart fully commits to Shar and Sharan way of life, no commitments/quick pleasurers of the flesh and cheating.
And its not even a Shadowheart thing, if it was any other companion I would have the same reaction. Because believe it or not I don't like it, like I don't like many other things in this game that make no sense. Like that Astarions ending scene being played up for laughs. Yeah he's burning in the sun, way to ruin the moment.
How would people feel if Alistair after romancing him went onto flirt with Morrigan, disapproving if you don't allow him to have a threesome with her and talk about how he really wanted her and he's been thirsting/dreaming about her while ignoring the MC. I don't think many people would've been happy with that.
What about Judy from Cyberpunk having a quick phone call at the end of her romance where she tells Maiko how she really wants her.
Regardless of you gender, race or sexual orientation I would say that the majority of people playing videogames are not looking for a surprise cuck option but a power fantasy (at least in some shape or form).
If you wanted to write a character that focuses on cheating and betrayal or even a properly written poly relationship why not do it? Why opt for trickery and hide it. People had no issues with Isabela from Dragon Age 2 because there were no hidden scenes and you knew what you were getting with her.
Either way I'm honestly getting tired of it and just want to enjoy video games. Hope they remedy that shit alongside other problems this game has when the Definitive Edition comes.
Thanks for reading my rant I guess
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And with that, I'm out. Wish you guys all the best and hope all those story/character problems get fixed soon and if not soon when the Definitive Edition comes.
Fully agree with all you wrote, from the bugs to the fetish part.
Halsin and Astarion are the 'star' companions from Larian's perspective. It was no coincidence that it was Halsin and Astarion in the ridiculous bear scene.
As more people finish the game, more posts are appearing expressing disappointment with endings or confusion with the story. This game is nowhere near as good as the hype claims.
The graphics are okay but not great - I use reshader which blows the vanilla graphics out of the water. Character Creation is pretty basic - 2 or 3 body shapes, less than a dozen heads, no sliders for anything. Lack of a decent number of companions. Poor writing with too many modern phrases. Far too many cutscenes - if I want 'cinematics' I'll go to the cinema. Overly complicated, rubbish story which is mostly a vehicle to allow the name-dropping of every deity in the Faerun pantheon and walk-on parts for NPCs from the original BG games - Jaheira, Minsc, Volo, Elminster, etc.
Okay, first, let me go into Avocatus Diaboli mode. This sort of thing actually happened in Bg2, as well. If you were Romancing Aerie and brought Haer Dalis along, he'd steal your girl and there was nothing you could do about it.
Alright, now for the real answer.
It has to do with.. 'Modern writing', and 'the message'. It's so on the nose, and so apparant that it actually breaks the fourth wall, for me. All the girls on the team are emasculated, capable, take matters into their own hands and all their troubles are created by external forces, which they face head on. No problem there, if it weren't for the fact that all the guys on the team are effeminate, whiney, selfish and irresponsible and couldn't make a decent decision if they tried. And I'll put Halsin as the top contender for these traits.
Of course, everyone is gay if you want them to be, but also if you don't want them to be - Wyll is going to woo you with his ballet moves regardless. Astarion will call you darling the entire campaign, and not once do you get to address that. Gale, who previously dated the Goddess of Magic, suddenly declares he's in love with my sweaty, murderous Dwarven Berserker, back hair and all, who actively ignores his longwinded conversations and refused his quest constantly.
Not so long ago, I mentioned Mass Effect on these forums, saying how that was way too easy with the romances. IN the last Panel from Hell, they were really proud of how they did the romances, how it wasn't just 'do their quest and bang'
But it's WORSE than that. At least in Mass Effect, there were the obvious flirt options to initiate a romance line. Not here. Everyone wants you and will come for you. There'not even a do-their-quest. It's talk to them, and say either yes or no, and for most of what I've seen, that yes goes to sex RIGHT from there. And.. it stays there, too. UNtil you reach the epilogue, it hardly comes up again.
And the worst part is, you better pick one, too - because everyone will be gunning for you if you don't. Even Withers complains if you don't. HE even complains to the NPC's they don't.
It's weird how you're navigating romantic advances from characters like Gale or Wyll before establishing a simple friendship. Having to reject Wyll after he did his gay dance broke my heart, he looked so sad! And yeah, for some reason I had to reload my save after Gale's gay sex scene, because it locks you out of the Shadowheart scene, but she permits you doing bestiality with Halsin.
The Emperor's gay sex scene is seemingly trivial, you get a steam achievement as a sort of badge of shame, that's it.
It's weird how you're navigating romantic advances from characters like Gale or Wyll before establishing a simple friendship. Having to reject Wyll after he did his gay dance broke my heart, he looked so sad! And yeah, for some reason I had to reload my save after Gale's gay sex scene, because it locks you out of the Shadowheart scene, but she permits you doing bestiality with Halsin.
The Emperor's gay sex scene is seemingly trivial, you get a steam achievement as a sort of badge of shame, that's it.
Man you really told Wyll:
Also, I don't think that the Emperor scene technically counts as homosexual or heterosexual either way. While the original host may have been male, technically the Emperor is the final form of a sexless Illithid tadpole. Omeluum could have been a woman at some point and we'd still refer to him as a he just out of convenience I suppose. But neither Emperor or Omeluum have sexes or genders, as the species reproduces asexually.
BG3 romances operate in a state similar to the Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment. All things are possible until states are revealed.
So in my first play through Shadowheart was a faithful monogamous true love.
But, if you ignore the signs and have Halsin in the party, he's going to influence outcomes according to his well publicized sexual behaviour. If you don't want that influence seeping in, you'll need to omit him from the party and/or don't converse with him.
And frankly, for a faster play through, best to limit party members. In future play throughs I'm not going to do whole team anymore.
BG3 romances operate in a state similar to the Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment. All things are possible until states are revealed.
So in my first play through Shadowheart was a faithful monogamous true love.
But, if you ignore the signs and have Halsin in the party, he's going to influence outcomes according to his well publicized sexual behaviour. If you don't want that influence seeping in, you'll need to omit him from the party and/or don't converse with him.
And frankly, for a faster play through, best to limit party members. In future play throughs I'm not going to do whole team anymore.
I like to do whole team, but Halsin brings nothing to the table that Jaheira can't too and I liek her more, so he stays mostly in camp.
Also, I don't think that the Emperor scene technically counts as homosexual or heterosexual either way. While the original host may have been male, technically the Emperor is the final form of a sexless Illithid tadpole. Omeluum could have been a woman at some point and we'd still refer to him as a he just out of convenience I suppose. But neither Emperor or Omeluum have sexes or genders, as the species reproduces asexually.
It just seems like the culmination of ''Baldur's Gay'' to me that even this cthulu looking squid dude starts making romantic advances towards you. I understand your point about the Emperor being the final form of a sexless Illithid tadpole and that Omeluum might not have a specific gender due to their asexual reproduction. However, what I'm curious about is why would have romantic interest at all then, they would be asexual aromantic.
Originally Posted by fylimar
I like to do whole team, but Halsin brings nothing to the table that Jaheira can't too and I liek her more, so he stays mostly in camp.
I send him to camp when I reached the city and he immediately
got kidnapped by Orin. Which was nice, because I don't think he has anything to do in Act 3 and Jaheira already fills the druid slot in your party.
BG3 romances operate in a state similar to the Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment. All things are possible until states are revealed.
So in my first play through Shadowheart was a faithful monogamous true love.
But, if you ignore the signs and have Halsin in the party, he's going to influence outcomes according to his well publicized sexual behaviour. If you don't want that influence seeping in, you'll need to omit him from the party and/or don't converse with him.
And frankly, for a faster play through, best to limit party members. In future play throughs I'm not going to do whole team anymore.
Firstly, that supports my point about Halsin (and Astarion) being the star companions. Secondly, it is bad writing or writing to support a particular agenda if an NPC is the driver and not the PC. Thirdly, Knowing it is better to leave out Halsin is due to hindsight.
Schrödinger's Cat? It more like Hobson's choice. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hobson's%20choice
I find it interesting that there are a lot fewer posts about Astarion than Halsin or several other NPCs.
I killed Astarion at the start when he pulled a knife on me. I rescued Haslin in the goblin camp mainly due to the Grove quest and the 'find the Nightsong' quest. I never had any intention of having him my party and didn't want him in my camp.
Listening to Swen's description of development, he delegates down to lowest level of authority to complete tasks, which he play tests. So we're encountering all styles of story throughout the game.
Can you elaborate a bit more on Halsin and Astarion being star companions? I don't quite get it. In my play throughs they weren't used much, saw little development and had minor endings.
I think I saw Halsin's ability scores and thought heck no, he needs higher strength (same as Minsc!). I had him do a few shadowcurse lands outings, but core companions already wore tailored gear and had developed party tactics, Halsin wasn't optimized nor synergised.
Astarion? Man, my devotion paladin was never really able to get his attitude very high, he'd always disapprove. Put him in camp whenever possible rather than suffer naggings.
Yeah, Hobson's choice for some companions who don't evolve much. For Minsc or Halsin you can take 'em or leave 'em. I guess I was thinking more Lae'zel and Shadowheart.
Talk about NPC who steal thunder, I've got a bone to pick with Dame Aylin
overdoing the paladin schtick. Talks in third person, has natural flight and if you take her words literally, which given her undying nature seems believable*, is an actual daughter of Selune. And what's with all the Jesus posing? (Withers too!)
Wow. The writer must have thought 'I'll show those paladin players what's what.' It's borderline DMPC antics to upstage the MC paladin. Nevermind she's only Fire elemental quality in actual fights.
*In a world with wizards and soul cages, this trait is a total liability. Given she's ageless, she'll be targeted endlessly and end up spending hundreds more years entrapped.
I honestly don't see Astarion and Halsin as star companions too. I would like an explanation too, if that's ok. I mean, Astarion is a fan favourite, granted. And he has a bit more involvment with the story, but Halsin is just boring. He fizzles out after act 2 and has only the polyarmoury going for him. I tried talking to him a few times, took him with me on a few occasions to see, if there is a quest popping up, but no, he jsut hits on my girl. So I parked him back at his tent and did go back to the companions, that actually have stories to tell. I mean, yeah, he became infamous because of THAT scene, but that's about it. I think, a star companion would be a bit more in the middle of things.
It's weird how you're navigating romantic advances from characters like Gale or Wyll before establishing a simple friendship. Having to reject Wyll after he did his gay dance broke my heart, he looked so sad! And yeah, for some reason I had to reload my save after Gale's gay sex scene, because it locks you out of the Shadowheart scene, but she permits you doing bestiality with Halsin.
The Emperor's gay sex scene is seemingly trivial, you get a steam achievement as a sort of badge of shame, that's it.
'' Gay dance '' rofl. But yeah I really didn't like how I felt like I couldn't just have nice '' friends '' moments with Wyll and Gale in particular. It felt like the game was reaaaally trying to push me into romantic situations with them when I just wanted to be friends with them. Especially since I played a Warlock and I considered them my '' magic buddies '', I also sympathized with Wyll and wanted to help him with the Mizora situation.
Ngl in regards to the bear sex thing. I do think some people were mad about it in bad faith and were just trying to cause political drama crap because apparently this is going to be a thing with every game now. Same with people being upset about '' beauty mods '' and trying to gender and politicize it when the same mods exist for both and all the characters ( did people only just now find out about mods??? ). But on the other hand it was really weird to see so many people unironically trying to justify it as '' not beastiality '' by saying '' well it's a person in bear form, not an actual bear ''. Okay... So by that logic if he turned into a minor instead that'd be okay because '' he's an adult actually ''? Like cmon... It is what it is, and yes it is weird and I do think it's understandable why a lot of people would get upset and feel offended about it.
Listening to Swen's description of development, he delegates down to lowest level of authority to complete tasks, which he play tests. So we're encountering all styles of story throughout the game.
Can you elaborate a bit more on Halsin and Astarion being star companions? I don't quite get it. In my play throughs they weren't used much, saw little development and had minor endings.
I think I saw Halsin's ability scores and thought heck no, he needs higher strength (same as Minsc!). I had him do a few shadowcurse lands outings, but core companions already wore tailored gear and had developed party tactics, Halsin wasn't optimized nor synergised.
Astarion? Man, my devotion paladin was never really able to get his attitude very high, he'd always disapprove. Put him in camp whenever possible rather than suffer naggings.
Yeah, Hobson's choice for some companions who don't evolve much. For Minsc or Halsin you can take 'em or leave 'em. I guess I was thinking more Lae'zel and Shadowheart.
Talk about NPC who steal thunder, I've got a bone to pick with Dame Aylin
overdoing the paladin schtick. Talks in third person, has natural flight and if you take her words literally, which given her undying nature seems believable*, is an actual daughter of Selune. And what's with all the Jesus posing? (Withers too!)
Wow. The writer must have thought 'I'll show those paladin players what's what.' It's borderline DMPC antics to upstage the MC paladin. Nevermind she's only Fire elemental quality in actual fights.
*In a world with wizards and soul cages, this trait is a total liability. Given she's ageless, she'll be targeted endlessly and end up spending hundreds more years entrapped.
She *is* a daughter of Selune. She's aasimar, meaning has a celestial in the parentage. Think of her as kinda a Jesus Christ thing. Instead of the son of God, she's the daughter of the Moonmaiden.
The Dame MIGHT be exaggerating. In 5E, Aasimar are a PC race notable for being the equal opposites of Tieflings, and having radiant and necrotic resistance.
Also, I don't think that the Emperor scene technically counts as homosexual or heterosexual either way. While the original host may have been male, technically the Emperor is the final form of a sexless Illithid tadpole. Omeluum could have been a woman at some point and we'd still refer to him as a he just out of convenience I suppose. But neither Emperor or Omeluum have sexes or genders, as the species reproduces asexually.
The Dame MIGHT be exaggerating. In 5E, Aasimar are a PC race notable for being the equal opposites of Tieflings, and having radiant and necrotic resistance.
Two resists? Little busted.
Lore in most games I've played with aasimar in them, they're a rare product of humans, and the insinuation is that a celestial or God touched the child somehow, in an allusion to the Immaculate Conception.
I haven't looked at 5e, but hell, Pathfinder 1e has at least half a dozen types of tiefling and aasimar, for each type of celestial or abyssal that made it.
Regardless, if her stat block isnt "correct", it's on purpose.
Not as busted as it looks. Radiant resistance doesn't protect you from much except a couple cleric spells and opposing Paladin Smites. Necrotic resistance is doing most of the heavy lifting.
Also, as the equal opposites of Tieflings, Aasimar have frequently been Human mates with Celestial->Half Celestial mates with human->Aasimar, Aasimar remains in the bloodline for several generations, not clearly defined.
Can you elaborate a bit more on Halsin and Astarion being star companions? I don't quite get it. In my play throughs they weren't used much, saw little development and had minor endings.
Originally Posted by fylimar
I honestly don't see Astarion and Halsin as star companions too. I would like an explanation too, if that's ok.
I meant it in the sense of they were the stars of the companions - featured most in publicity and fan worship rather than in game, story-wise. Pre-release Astarion was probably the most talked about companion yet now he is hardly mentioned. Halsin was talked about less (will he be the missing origin character and all that) but now he only features on the forum because his Act 1 and Act 2 quests bork.
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In the good old days aasimar used to be considered a level higher for XP needed to level up due to the racial bonus they got. The +2 CHA +2 STR (?) and the rest. They were the paladin race par excellence. Tieflings were +2 DEX and +2 INT for your rogue.
I honestly don't see Astarion and Halsin as star companions too. I would like an explanation too, if that's ok.
I meant it in the sense of they were the stars of the companions - featured most in publicity and fan worship rather than in game, story-wise. Pre-release Astarion was probably the most talked about companion yet now he is hardly mentioned. Halsin was talked about less (will he be the missing origin character and all that) but now he only features on the forum because his Act 1 and Act 2 quests bork.
Ah, ok, I understand, what you mean. I do agree about Astarion, I mean, he was made to draw in the not so typical DnD crowd, so he was featured widely. I don't really agree about Halsin - apart from the bear memes everywhere, I don't see him often featured outside of talks in this or other BG3 related forums/reddits. And I'm pretty sure, most people remember 'the game has bear sex', but not, who the bear is. You often have to explain, that the 'bear' is actually an elven man.
I honestly don't see Astarion and Halsin as star companions too. I would like an explanation too, if that's ok.
I meant it in the sense of they were the stars of the companions - featured most in publicity and fan worship rather than in game, story-wise. Pre-release Astarion was probably the most talked about companion yet now he is hardly mentioned. Halsin was talked about less (will he be the missing origin character and all that) but now he only features on the forum because his Act 1 and Act 2 quests bork.
Ah, ok, I understand, what you mean. I do agree about Astarion, I mean, he was made to draw in the not so typical DnD crowd, so he was featured widely. I don't really agree about Halsin - apart from the bear memes everywhere, I don't see him often featured outside of talks in this or other BG3 related forums/reddits. And I'm pretty sure, most people remember 'the game has bear sex', but not, who the bear is. You often have to explain, that the 'bear' is actually an elven man.
Before the whole bear thing, he had the "Daddy Halsin" moniker going around.
I don't know *that*, but I do know that when they said NPC's couldn't date each other, they were wrong. My non-player Astarion totally banged non-player Shadowheart at Tieflingfest 2023.
Okay, first, let me go into Avocatus Diaboli mode. This sort of thing actually happened in Bg2, as well. If you were Romancing Aerie and brought Haer Dalis along, he'd steal your girl and there was nothing you could do about it.
I'm glad you brought up the whole Aerie and Haer thing but from what I remember Aerie turns down Haer (and he backs down) if you progressed far enough down her romance route.
Even if that wasn't the case there is a difference between a character that was written with a whole storyline revolving around a love triangle and a romance that was written in your classical BioWare way only for the cuck shit to pop up out of nowhere and after finishing the storyline/contradicting what was established.
But hey, I guess one writers fan-fic overrides the rest of the game I guess.
As for the rest of your post, I did notice the overreliance on modern politics/views or how you call it the 'message' to write stories in recent games but for the most part its been tolerable (for me at lest) it just seems I've reached my limit. Ruining a character for a quick cuck fantasy kinda soured it for me.
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I wasn't thinking of posting again but the funnies thing happened this week. One of my friends finished the game and he was one of those people that were obsessed with Halsin during the EA and the whole daddy thing (He didn't like the Panel from Hell with the bear tho). To paraphrase 'I'm so happy that there is a gay romance that isn't a twink' but even now after having our conversation I cant not laugh at the whole situation.
He was not happy with the character and how the whole story turned out. We talked about the issues with the writing and the problems we had, Orpheus/Emperor etc. but the most fun shit talking we had was around the zoophile.
Onto the main course. I think we both came to the same conclusion, him focusing on Halsin and me on Halsins influence on other characters. (mainly Shadowheart but also Astarion)
Halsin is the OC Do Not Steal of some early 2000 tumblr porn fan fiction:
Poorly written - check
Shallow/no development - check
Super unique (bulky elf with body hair unlike the rest of the elven race) - check
Super talented and everyone praises him (he's the greatest healer despite being incompetent at everything he does throughout the story) - check
Sex god/sex pest (he wants to sleep with everything that walks - he was so good in bed that every drow in the world knows about him) - check
Characters in a story acting out of character for him/story bending over to accommodate him (both Shadowheart and Astarion) - check
Some fucked up fetish that could be a reflection of the writer (cuck/zoophilia) - check
We were both laughing so much at this, I still cant believe that this version of him made it into the game over some other datamined ones. But people thirstin for him (my friend included) got what they wanted, not really XD ( I don't think anyone interested in Halsin wanted him like this)
Just remove his influence from Astarions/Shadohearts story and do a semi rewrite of his character and for the love of good stop it with the zoo shit.
ENOUGH WITH THE BEAR!
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Originally Posted by fylimar
I like to do whole team, but Halsin brings nothing to the table that Jaheira can't too and I liek her more, so he stays mostly in camp.
If given the choice would you rather have a...lets say a halfling bard companion?
Originally Posted by Angelalex242
The Dame MIGHT be exaggerating. In 5E, Aasimar are a PC race notable for being the equal opposites of Tieflings, and having radiant and necrotic resistance.
Oh god, the Aasimars. I still remember my first dip into the world of DnD. I was still a small kid and Neverwinter Nights 2 came out.
My first DnD character was an Aasimar paladin (I know so original lol). Was really disappointed to hear that they would not be playable since I've always saw them as a mirror race to Tieflings.
Originally Posted by rodeolifant
I don't know *that*, but I do know that when they said NPC's couldn't date each other, they were wrong. My non-player Astarion totally banged non-player Shadowheart at Tieflingfest 2023.
That's another weird thing that just seems like an oversite or whatever it is (Larians need for companions to also be player characters. Didn't like it in OS2 don't like it in BG3).
During the Tiefling party you can control your companions as if they were the MC. So unlike your usual everyday adventuring where if you decided to initiate a convo between companions nothing will happen and it will immediately switch the player character but for that party/scene that lock/restriction is gone, weird. (it treats it as if the companion was the MC you were playing and is never brought up again)
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The more I look at it the more it becomes clear that the whole spiel larian gave about treating the companion interaction/romances and overall writing more maturely was just PR and nothing else. But it seems they did hit their target audience, I am so sorry for using this word but coomers. (or maybe not, there has been a lot of complaining about overly sexual companions)
Aylin's maybe not a literal daughter. An Aasimar is descended from a celestial, not a god - that'd make her something more.
Nah, she's probably a descendent of one of Selune's angels and calls Selune 'mother' figuratively, although it comes across like she's drunk the koolaid and actually believes she's her mum. I mean, once you start referring to yourself in 3rd person, your ego is controlling you.
Though if Selune were the actual mother, she'd be a pretty terrible one leaving her daughter in such a state for so long.
(And shouldn't druids have a big issue with her running around Faerun? She's clearly outside the natural order. Maybe Kethric was actually in his right mind to object to his daughter's union.)
As for Jesus posing, I've seen plenty of Catholic depictions in my time. BG3 leans heavily into church imagery with Aylin and Withers. Sorry, but it comes across as cliche.
Okay, first, let me go into Avocatus Diaboli mode. This sort of thing actually happened in Bg2, as well. If you were Romancing Aerie and brought Haer Dalis along, he'd steal your girl and there was nothing you could do about it.
I'm glad you brought up the whole Aerie and Haer thing but from what I remember Aerie turns down Haer (and he backs down) if you progressed far enough down her romance route.
Even if that wasn't the case there is a difference between a character that was written with a whole storyline revolving around a love triangle and a romance that was written in your classical BioWare way only for the cuck shit to pop up out of nowhere and after finishing the storyline/contradicting what was established.
But hey, I guess one writers fan-fic overrides the rest of the game I guess.
As for the rest of your post, I did notice the overreliance on modern politics/views or how you call it the 'message' to write stories in recent games but for the most part its been tolerable (for me at lest) it just seems I've reached my limit. Ruining a character for a quick cuck fantasy kinda soured it for me.
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I wasn't thinking of posting again but the funnies thing happened this week. One of my friends finished the game and he was one of those people that were obsessed with Halsin during the EA and the whole daddy thing (He didn't like the Panel from Hell with the bear tho). To paraphrase 'I'm so happy that there is a gay romance that isn't a twink' but even now after having our conversation I cant not laugh at the whole situation.
He was not happy with the character and how the whole story turned out. We talked about the issues with the writing and the problems we had, Orpheus/Emperor etc. but the most fun shit talking we had was around the zoophile.
Onto the main course. I think we both came to the same conclusion, him focusing on Halsin and me on Halsins influence on other characters. (mainly Shadowheart but also Astarion)
Halsin is the OC Do Not Steal of some early 2000 tumblr porn fan fiction:
Poorly written - check
Shallow/no development - check
Super unique (bulky elf with body hair unlike the rest of the elven race) - check
Super talented and everyone praises him (he's the greatest healer despite being incompetent at everything he does throughout the story) - check
Sex god/sex pest (he wants to sleep with everything that walks - he was so good in bed that every drow in the world knows about him) - check
Characters in a story acting out of character for him/story bending over to accommodate him (both Shadowheart and Astarion) - check
Some fucked up fetish that could be a reflection of the writer (cuck/zoophilia) - check
We were both laughing so much at this, I still cant believe that this version of him made it into the game over some other datamined ones. But people thirstin for him (my friend included) got what they wanted, not really XD ( I don't think anyone interested in Halsin wanted him like this)
Just remove his influence from Astarions/Shadohearts story and do a semi rewrite of his character and for the love of good stop it with the zoo shit.
ENOUGH WITH THE BEAR!
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Originally Posted by fylimar
I like to do whole team, but Halsin brings nothing to the table that Jaheira can't too and I liek her more, so he stays mostly in camp.
If given the choice would you rather have a...lets say a halfling bard companion?
Well, you've got me there . Yes, I vastly would have preferred Helia over Halsin or in fact any character, that didn't change personality completely, if you recruit them, but yeah, mostly Helia. I'm not familiar with early 2000 tumblr porn fanfic and I never even talked to those drow ( which I assume triggers that he tells you about his years as a drow sex slave?), but yeah, I can't deny, that he is not well written and that fans, who wanted him as a companion, like your friend, can't really be satisfied with what they got. I don't think I'll use him in the future, he is bland and has really only the sex thing going for him.
I mean, once you start referring to yourself in 3rd person, your ego is controlling you.
Wyll disapproves.
You can take him down a peg or three in dialogue. It would've been nice to do the same with Aylin, or at least not admit her into camp without resorting to homicidal murder.
I actually agree with all the points you're making but you're never going to get people to agree with you or get anything changed with inane incel wording you use. I think her willingness to have threesomes/foursomes comes completely out of left field and contradictory to everything in her romance. She won't sleep with you act 3 seemingly because you need to build trust with her but suddenly she's willing to do group sex? It makes zero sense whatsoever. The guy who wrote Shadowheart also wrote Halsin so it leads me to believe he's just a self-insert for him and that's why she's so willing to do. And because of the fact that Halsin reads as a self-insert I don't consider anything involving the two of them to be part of Shadowheart's character. It's just weird shit this guy put in the game for himself which is a shame writer's shouldn't do that.
I actually agree with all the points you're making but you're never going to get people to agree with you or get anything changed with inane incel wording you use. I think her willingness to have threesomes/foursomes comes completely out of left field and contradictory to everything in her romance. She won't sleep with you act 3 seemingly because you need to build trust with her but suddenly she's willing to do group sex? It makes zero sense whatsoever. The guy who wrote Shadowheart also wrote Halsin so it leads me to believe he's just a self-insert for him and that's why she's so willing to do. And because of the fact that Halsin reads as a self-insert I don't consider anything involving the two of them to be part of Shadowheart's character. It's just weird shit this guy put in the game for himself which is a shame writer's shouldn't do that.
Ah the internets favorite insult strikes again. Despite my 'incel' writing as you have dubbed it the reality will not change, will it? Cuck, zoophile, degenerate are all words with meaning and words that simply apply to the situation at hand. Sure I could've used a more flowery language but the description I gave was more than enough for you and others to agree with.
I don't see why I should be more diplomatic in my wording when dealing with people who would ruin characters with a disgusting fetish that is zoophilia. (It is a form of degeneracy and no tip-toeing around it will change that) As for the dreaded cuck word? Is it not cucking for a partner (in this case companion) to sleep and lust after another while in a established relationship? (Even more malicious is to write all of that after that characters story was already finished/established)
In all honesty I won't hold my breath when it comes to these changes being made, despite the writers talent that he has show throughout Shadowhearts story he is still catering to certain type of audience. Would it be nice? Sure, but at the end of the day it is only a game.
Don't take this response as me being snappy because I don't mean it that way. Maybe my wording isn't the best suited for changing minds or garnering support but if you think you are able to convey the situation any better and what you would like to see changed feel to free to do so otherwise the cuck romance will stay as it is.
I actually agree with all the points you're making but you're never going to get people to agree with you or get anything changed with inane incel wording you use. I think her willingness to have threesomes/foursomes comes completely out of left field and contradictory to everything in her romance. She won't sleep with you act 3 seemingly because you need to build trust with her but suddenly she's willing to do group sex? It makes zero sense whatsoever. The guy who wrote Shadowheart also wrote Halsin so it leads me to believe he's just a self-insert for him and that's why she's so willing to do. And because of the fact that Halsin reads as a self-insert I don't consider anything involving the two of them to be part of Shadowheart's character. It's just weird shit this guy put in the game for himself which is a shame writer's shouldn't do that.
Ah the internets favorite insult strikes again. Despite my 'incel' writing as you have dubbed it the reality will not change, will it? Cuck, zoophile, degenerate are all words with meaning and words that simply apply to the situation at hand. Sure I could've used a more flowery language but the description I gave was more than enough for you and others to agree with.
I don't see why I should be more diplomatic in my wording when dealing with people who would ruin characters with a disgusting fetish that is zoophilia. (It is a form of degeneracy and no tip-toeing around it will change that) As for the dreaded cuck word? Is it not cucking for a partner (in this case companion) to sleep and lust after another while in a established relationship? (Even more malicious is to write all of that after that characters story was already finished/established)
In all honesty I won't hold my breath when it comes to these changes being made, despite the writers talent that he has show throughout Shadowhearts story he is still catering to certain type of audience. Would it be nice? Sure, but at the end of the day it is only a game.
Don't take this response as me being snappy because I don't mean it that way. Maybe my wording isn't the best suited for changing minds or garnering support but if you think you are able to convey the situation any better and what you would like to see changed feel to free to do so otherwise the cuck romance will stay as it is.
Well I mean I just don't care that much to do a write up like this. While I would prefer that she doesn't agree to it and I think it's completely out of character that she does I never asked her to do it in the first place nor did I even consider asking her to have a threesome/foursome with Halsin or the Drow twins. As far as I'm concerned this doesn't even exist as I would never trigger this when I play the game.
I've reached the conclusion that Halsin the companion becomes too much a Gary-Stu. The game world reality warping around him and companions acting completely out of character is exhibit A, which by itself convicts and condemns him. Halsin doppelganger begone!
Halsin the camp follower however, as set up in EA, is perfectly fine and welcome.
After almost finishing my playthrough and seeing some banters and other things related to him. Apparently, the character that until you finish her quest wouldn't even want to think about sharing (unless I missed something that would lead to that?) is suddenly all thirsty for him and to the point to make it loud and clear it seems in that twin drow dialogue and approvals/disapprovals. So... what's the whole point of romancing her if she will probably just be thinking about the bear? I am just disappointed.
While I would prefer that she doesn't agree to it and I think it's completely out of character that she does I never asked her to do it in the first place nor did I even consider asking her to have a threesome/foursome with Halsin or the Drow twins. As far as I'm concerned this doesn't even exist as I would never trigger this when I play the game.
Unfortunately I have to be the bearer of bad news. As much as I like the mindset of 'out of sight, out of mind' I'm afraid it doesn't really or fully work here. Or maybe it just doesn't work for me.
Because you see, Shadowheart flirts with Halsin during that one banter no matter what. So instead of rejecting his advances like you would expect her to, she instead welcomes them. If someone needs a refresher, this banter happens right after the romance is completed. Not before, not during but after. (So after the whole I want to spend the rest of my life with you/you are my true love conversation)
You are right that not having the foursome/fivesome/poly relationship is entirely up to the player and a players choice but what throws the wrench into this whole thing and ruins it for a lot of people are the words she uses and what those words imply. (if someone doesn't know what she says, look at my OP screenshots)
Like with Kagha, whether you discovered it or not she WAS working with the shadow druids an the same applies to Shadowheart. Whether you saw it or not she still has sexual thoughts and fantasies about Halsin while in a relationship with the MC (male or female) no matter what.
Like you said in makes no sense that she would say anything like that or be okay with it seeing how it contradicts her entire character, and yet its still there.
Originally Posted by portionbeans
It's just weird shit this guy put in the game for himself which is a shame writer's shouldn't do that.
I love that you said this. It shows how obvious it is to everyone what the writer tried to do. And he was rather sneaky with it, wasn't he? Putting it all at the end, it is as if there are two Shadowhearts. True Shadowheart for her story/romance and a doppelganger made for Halsin.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
After almost finishing my playthrough and seeing some banters and other things related to him. Apparently, the character that until you finish her quest wouldn't even want to think about sharing (unless I missed something that would lead to that?) is suddenly all thirsty for him and to the point to make it loud and clear it seems in that twin drow dialogue and approvals/disapprovals. So... what's the whole point of romancing her if she will probably just be thinking about the bear? I am just disappointed.
And there it is, the million dollar question. Why would anyone want to romance this character? Why would anyone want to romance Shadowheart only for her to do a 180 after he story was done. I don't think anyone likes the idea of going through 3 acts of 'I love you main character, you're my true love bla bla' only to be blindsided with a 'Sike! I was always thinking of Halsin.'
And there it is, the million dollar question. Why would anyone want to romance this character? Why would anyone want to romance Shadowheart only for her to do a 180 after he story was done. I don't think anyone likes the idea of going through 3 acts of 'I love you main character, you're my true love bla bla' only to be blindsided with a 'Sike! I was always thinking of Halsin.'
And there it is, the million dollar question. Why would anyone want to romance this character? Why would anyone want to romance Shadowheart only for her to do a 180 after he story was done. I don't think anyone likes the idea of going through 3 acts of 'I love you main character, you're my true love bla bla' only to be blindsided with a 'Sike! I was always thinking of Halsin.'
I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. THIS DEFINITELY RUINED MY GAMEPLAY!
I did not even get to finish my good guy playthrough romancing shadowheart because by the time I got to the drow twins, I got a rejection from both Halsin and Shadowheart when I disagreed doing an ORGY with them. Like WTF. After all that story and character development for shadowheart, she shoulde be monogamous and loyal to the main character, she is scared of being alone and would not want the main character to leave her after all she has been through. But then, she suddenly says she dreams of sleeping with Halsin "Not once, twice, three times or even more than that" WTF. I was disgusted when she said this. By the time I got to this point I already formed a connection with her. I think her writing is really good, what she has been through and discovering all her memories back. But no, she'd rather sleep with a bear and do an orgy. I just wish maybe they give the players more freedom in this, like what if her reaction depends if you make her evil or make her a good character? Like if she is good, or selunite maybe monogamy?? then if she is with Shar maybe they can put that idea of polygamy and cheating with Halsin in. But comon how can this do this. I am so disappointed, I could not go through with my playthrough. I had to delete my character, restart a new game as the Dark Urge, and kill her in her sleep. Then on to romancing Minthara. Shouldve named her ShadowCuc**** for all I know. She left a bad taste in my Mouth...
Good thing I read the part that you wrote down about where she flirts with Halsin even after completing her romance. That would be even more hell!
Anway, I am glad I get to share this same sentiment with someone. I completely agree with everything you just wrote down. Larian should consider things like this more.!!
Writing like this makes me glad I uninstalled the game.
I will wait for Definitive Edition and if this horrible writing stays in, I would rather let Halsin die or kill him myself than be cocked by him.
In EA, he was known as a Daddy Halsin, but I considered it a meme and nothing more. Making him a full fledged companion was a mistake, he should have stayed as a npc with maybe a fling or two, if you help him out.
This is pretty funny, especially if Halsin and Shadowheart have the same writer.
Halsin never appealed to me so I missed out on this. I agree Halsin reads as a self insert, and really how 12-year old me would have written my character. "I'm an elf but I'm super tall and jacked. I'm really powerful and super famous and I have a huge dick." Imagine thinking you're getting an origin/romance moment and it's actually just Shadowheart complaining about not getting to bang Halsin LOL.
Did the writer for Halsin/SH write any other characters? Would be interesting if they are the only pair to show this behavior.
None of the origin characters are cool with you romancing another origin character. Shadowheart ends the relationship if you romance Minthara She isn't pleased but doesn't end the relationship if you bang Mizora She mentions wanting you to herself at least the first time during the drow twins if you haven't had the grotto scene
She certainly doesn't lament or even mention the others should you reject their advances. Nor is there any possibility of a poly hookup with Minthara/Mizora. Again LOL i couldn't imagine getting a "Shadowheart disapproves" when you turn down a bear threesome.
edit: I also have no idea how SH responds if you romance Ralph's whatever in the house of hope
Or...Shadowheart is an adult individual who can engage in sexual jokes and banter without it meaning that she is going to act on any of it or even want to.
She is more than happy to engage in some lighthearted romantic fun at Druid's Grove. She seems well aware that she is attractive and used to responding to advances and banter with witty remarks throughout the entire story. The moment she shifts to being a bit more serious and sincere about it is when she and the main character realize that there may be some real and serious feelings involved. This is actually good story arc writing because it shows that the character is vulnerable and responds to the raised stakes of having her heart broken with shifting the way she addresses things with the main character. That she stays the same with regards to responding to other people that she does not have a romantic investment in, and doesn't change her entire person to submit to the main character's perception of how a monogamous person in a committed relationship must act and behave from now on, is indicative of a good and healthy adult relationship. As long as she does not go ahead and sneak off with any other other person behind her partner's back, even if she actually wants to do that, she is showing respect and commitment to her relationship.
There, I won't even charge you for that relationship councelling.
Or...Shadowheart is an adult individual who can engage in sexual jokes and banter without it meaning that she is going to act on any of it or even want to.
She is more than happy to engage in some lighthearted romantic fun at Druid's Grove. She seems well aware that she is attractive and used to responding to advances and banter with witty remarks throughout the entire story. The moment she shifts to being a bit more serious and sincere about it is when she and the main character realize that there may be some real and serious feelings involved. This is actually good story arc writing because it shows that the character is vulnerable and responds to the raised stakes of having her heart broken with shifting the way she addresses things with the main character. That she stays the same with regards to responding to other people that she does not have a romantic investment in, and doesn't change her entire person to submit to the main character's perception of how a monogamous person in a committed relationship must act and behave from now on, is indicative of a good and healthy adult relationship. As long as she does not go ahead and sneak off with any other other person behind her partner's back, even if she actually wants to do that, she is showing respect and commitment to her relationship.
There, I won't even charge you for that relationship councelling.
Oh yeah. That makes sense. I mean, who wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who's dreaming about having sex with someone else who's just a few steps away from you? And will jump to sleep with that person the first chance they've got and will openly flirt with them while you're around AND disapprove of you if you deny them the chance to have sex with said person. Seems a very good and healthy relationship. Especially if you're not into poly at all and just want an old and boring monogamous relationship.
Or...Shadowheart is an adult individual who can engage in sexual jokes and banter without it meaning that she is going to act on any of it or even want to.
She is more than happy to engage in some lighthearted romantic fun at Druid's Grove. She seems well aware that she is attractive and used to responding to advances and banter with witty remarks throughout the entire story. The moment she shifts to being a bit more serious and sincere about it is when she and the main character realize that there may be some real and serious feelings involved. This is actually good story arc writing because it shows that the character is vulnerable and responds to the raised stakes of having her heart broken with shifting the way she addresses things with the main character. That she stays the same with regards to responding to other people that she does not have a romantic investment in, and doesn't change her entire person to submit to the main character's perception of how a monogamous person in a committed relationship must act and behave from now on, is indicative of a good and healthy adult relationship. As long as she does not go ahead and sneak off with any other other person behind her partner's back, even if she actually wants to do that, she is showing respect and commitment to her relationship.
There, I won't even charge you for that relationship councelling.
LOL, LMAO even. I'm going to be a bit of an asshole now but I'll do try to keep it playful.
That's a lot of words just to say you are into cucking. I bet it felt rather good writing all of that, especially that last line. But the gaslighting doesn't really work. You might have your preferences and views when it comes to relationships but you will find them amongst the minority if you only decide to look outside your bubble.
Now let me say this, I really don't care what kinks or interest you or anyone else has. (OneManArmy comes to mind) I really don't and never did, what makes you aroused and how you conduct yourself during your relationships is entirely up to you and I will not think less of you just because I don't share your enthusiasm for it. I just ask that you or others don't shove it in my face or try to trick me into it, especially when it comes to the enjoyment of my games, books, movies etc.
You go on about how flirty she is and aware of her position/attractiveness and yet she is rather dismissive of anyone that isn't the player character throughout the game, she is even so interested and invested in the main character from the start that if you decided not to kiss her during the Tiefling party she voices her disappointment. Which leads us into the rest of her romance/story. You said she changes how she interacts with the MC as soon as the stakes are raised and feelings are involved and that is true, true to the point that her investment in the MC leads her to reject any other advances from others or ideas of sharing.
But a person experiencing her story should not voices their concerns if a character starts exhibiting contradictory behavior and statements because a writer decided to spice it up out of nowhere with Mizora or Halsin? (Both scenes felt like they were tacked on after everything was already established)
As for your 'mature' outlook, believe it or not but the majority of people regardless of their sexual orientation don't consider it a healthy relationship for their partner to flirt with others or constantly fantasize and or pine for others. You might even say its a deal breaker.
And seeing how Shadowheart despite her claims of commitment goes 180 AFTER her story is finished and flirts and thirsts for Halsin no matter what, it is understandable as to why a lot of people are not pleased. People don't like being led on, in real life or fiction. So when a writer surprises you with a sneaky little cuck fetish you get reactions like these.
Now lets me be a bit sassy and do some relationship counselling of my own. No its not controlling to expect commitment in a mono relationship, no its not making a partner submit by asking them not to flirt with others and cheat on you. It's okay to have self respect, It's okay to voice your concerns and set down your deal breakers. There, I wont even charge your that
Quote
even if she actually wants to do that
God damn has this silly little trash fire of poor writing brought a smile to my face. Oh god man XD (I'm talking about the games writing and the discussion around it by the way, your post has been rather enjoyable to read despite completely disagreeing with it lol)
Oh yeah. That makes sense. I mean, who wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who's dreaming about having sex with someone else who's just a few steps away from you? And will jump to sleep with that person the first chance they've got and will openly flirt with them while you're around AND disapprove of you if you deny them the chance to have sex with said person. Seems a very good and healthy relationship. Especially if you're not into poly at all and just want an old and boring monogamous relationship.
Words aren't actions. I don't read into it that she has any desire to sneak away with anyone else just because she makes a few flirty jokes. If my partner was honest and sincere with me in a way that Shadowheart is in private, I would trust them to not be inconsiderate and hurtful towards me, and not jump to any premature conclusions based on some comments. Maybe her disapproval is a sign of her getting bad vibes from you that you are being possessive and don't trust her.
LOL, LMAO even. I'm going to be a bit of an asshole now but I'll do try to keep it playful.
That's a lot of words just to say you are into cucking. I bet it felt rather good writing all of that, especially that last line. But the gaslighting doesn't really work. You might have your preferences and views when it comes to relationships but you will find them amongst the minority if you only decide to look outside your bubble.
Now let me say this, I really don't care what kinks or interest you or anyone else has. (OneManArmy comes to mind) I really don't and never did, what makes you aroused and how you conduct yourself during your relationships is entirely up to you and I will not think less of you just because I don't share your enthusiasm for it. I just ask that you or others don't shove it in my face or try to trick me into it, especially when it comes to the enjoyment of my games, books, movies etc.
You go on about how flirty she is and aware of her position/attractiveness and yet she is rather dismissive of anyone that isn't the player character throughout the game, she is even so interested and invested in the main character from the start that if you decided not to kiss her during the Tiefling party she voices her disappointment. Which leads us into the rest of her romance/story. You said she changes how she interacts with the MC as soon as the stakes are raised and feelings are involved and that is true, true to the point that her investment in the MC leads her to reject any other advances from others or ideas of sharing.
But a person experiencing her story should not voices their concerns if a character starts exhibiting contradictory behavior and statements because a writer decided to spice it up out of nowhere with Mizora or Halsin? (Both scenes felt like they were tacked on after everything was already established)
As for your 'mature' outlook, believe it or not but the majority of people regardless of their sexual orientation don't consider it a healthy relationship for their partner to flirt with others or constantly fantasize and or pine for others. You might even say its a deal breaker.
And seeing how Shadowheart despite her claims of commitment goes 180 AFTER her story is finished and flirts and thirsts for Halsin no matter what, it is understandable as to why a lot of people are not pleased. People don't like being led on, in real life or fiction. So when a writer surprises you with a sneaky little cuck fetish you get reactions like these.
Now lets me be a bit sassy and do some relationship counselling of my own. No its not controlling to expect commitment in a mono relationship, no its not making a partner submit by asking them not to flirt with others and cheat on you. It's okay to have self respect, It's okay to voice your concerns and set down your deal breakers. There, I wont even charge your that
Aside from the very premature conclusions about my sexual desires, the rest of your reply was well worded.
I have a social circle where sexual references and jokes that are very on the nose is perfectly accepted and enjoyed, without any of us ever having taken those words into actual action or practice. So I don't read much into how the characters in BG3 interact in that regard, it seems that is how they have been written. Maybe the writers have spent a lot of time watching Critical Role and assumed that is how everyone enjoys their DnD banter.
Oh yeah. That makes sense. I mean, who wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who's dreaming about having sex with someone else who's just a few steps away from you? And will jump to sleep with that person the first chance they've got and will openly flirt with them while you're around AND disapprove of you if you deny them the chance to have sex with said person. Seems a very good and healthy relationship. Especially if you're not into poly at all and just want an old and boring monogamous relationship.
Words aren't actions. I don't read into it that she has any desire to sneak away with anyone else just because she makes a few flirty jokes. If my partner was honest and sincere with me in a way that Shadowheart is in private, I would trust them to not be inconsiderate and hurtful towards me, and not jump to any premature conclusions based on some comments. Maybe her disapproval is a sign of her getting bad vibes from you that you are being possessive and don't trust her.
I understand, If that's how you feel about the whole thing with her, who am I to say otherwise?
I personally still think that her personality from before Act 3 to after finishing her quest just turned 180 in terms of her preferences, since before it, it was never once (again, unless I missed something) mentioned or hinted that she was into this sort of things or especially into halsin of all ppl.
Well, there’s no shortage of “romance” options on the forum today.
I'd rather stay with Shadowheart than with the Dubai princess. The former might give me headaches when flirting with Halsin, but the latter for sure will give me a computer virus and is already more annoying than the jokes if Dribbles the clown
^yeah, seeking refuge in this thread if you guys don't mind. does dubai spam posting usually happens? as for OP, i strongly believe the flags are fucked up, everything in this blasted game is still bugged.
"So... it was a bug," said Vincke. "The approval thresholds were too low when we shipped. That's why they were so horny in the beginning. It wasn't supposed to be that way. We've fixed it since, at least for some of them. We're still fixing a few of them."
Looking at the other thread regarding Halsin, the main issue seems to lie there. Once Halsin becomes a companion, they seem to have decided to lean very heavily into the daddy-bear joke and assume that those who bring Halsin along are the ones who are interested in exploring that whole poly-dad-bear story arc (since there's no role for him to fill otherwise with Jaheira as the more obvious canon character). Unless I am missing something there are no quests in act 3 where he plays any major part, so the writing assumes that you only brought him along for bear jokes and poly-romance and they make Shadowheart adapt to that. If Shadowheart didn't play along, would we have threads with people complaining that they wanted to have a Shadowheart threesome, but she is too much of a prude to go along with it and it ruins their fun?
Well, there’s no shortage of “romance” options on the forum today.
I'd rather stay with Shadowheart than with the Dubai princess. The former might give me headaches when flirting with Halsin, but the latter for sure will give me a computer virus and is already more annoying than the jokes if Dribbles the clown
Aside from the very premature conclusions about my sexual desires, the rest of your reply was well worded.
I have a social circle where sexual references and jokes that are very on the nose is perfectly accepted and enjoyed, without any of us ever having taken those words into actual action or practice. So I don't read much into how the characters in BG3 interact in that regard, it seems that is how they have been written. Maybe the writers have spent a lot of time watching Critical Role and assumed that is how everyone enjoys their DnD banter.
Then I apologize if I have painted you in a bad/unflattering light. Some statements did seem to me, how should I put this, cuck adjacent. I might've jumped to a conclusion in my initial response.
I still disagree with your take on it tho. As for your reference to your private life and jokes being made, it is normal to joke in friend groups even finding someone attractive is normal. We are human beings, having likes and dislikes is normal.
But there is a difference between saying that person is attractive and going out of your way to flirt with them while in a relationship. It comes of as betrayal of trust to many, especial when you learn that the person you are with is actively longing for someone else.
Even tho its connected to Shadowheart and how she is portrayed (contradictions and all) I don't want to steer this thread into a real life relationship discussion. So lets stay on the 'lets agree to disagree'
I can't comment on Critical Roll since I don't know much about it. I was never a fan of the whole table top DnD, to be honest. I like the lore and the setting but the table top aspect was never attractive to me.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
I personally still think that her personality from before Act 3 to after finishing her quest just turned 180 in terms of her preferences, since before it, it was never once (again, unless I missed something) mentioned or hinted that she was into this sort of things or especially into halsin of all ppl.
No it was never hinted or shown that she was interested in cheating on the MC, on the contrary there are few examples where she is against it and the whole idea of sharing.
Same with Halsin, the Mizora scene feels like it was added after her story was established. (seeing how she goes from I don't like sharing and cheating to a sudden I'm totally fine with you sleeping with Mizora but I'm still mad you didn't tell me)
Some people might say that her past is indicative of her being down with it but I would disagree. The only thing her past shows us is that she had previous sexual experiences (casual sex/hook ups - like the rest of the companions, you wont find your pure virgin if that's what you are looking for - I know some people are looking for that :/) and seeing how she is rather possessive of you during her romance 'I don't want to be your spare lover'/'I would always want more of you' the idea that she would suddenly flirt and try to cheat on you with Halsin does come of as strange.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
Looking at the other thread regarding Halsin, the main issue seems to lie there. Once Halsin becomes a companion, they seem to have decided to lean very heavily into the daddy-bear joke and assume that those who bring Halsin along are the ones who are interested in exploring that whole poly-dad-bear story arc (since there's no role for him to fill otherwise with Jaheira as the more obvious canon character). Unless I am missing something there are no quests in act 3 where he plays any major part, so the writing assumes that you only brought him along for bear jokes and poly-romance and they make Shadowheart adapt to that. If Shadowheart didn't play along, would we have threads with people complaining that they wanted to have a Shadowheart threesome, but she is too much of a prude to go along with it and it ruins their fun?
As you have observed Halsin does come of as a joke daddy/bear character and in my opinion he comes as one of the worst written characters in the game because of his overreliance on kink and lack of actual development.
But I think the main issue that people have with Shadoheart is that they expected something akin to Morrigan. And you do get that up until the very end where the 'OC do not steal' Halsin comes in and contradicts everything you experienced throughout her story. (People tend to look for wish fulfillments/power fantasies when playin RPGs in most cases, so like with BioWare they want that happy ever after for their characters and romances without any twists. Just look at the Karlach thread)
I do wonder if Shadowheart had a different writer would her interaction with Halsin been any different. I would expect Shadowhearts reaction to Halsins flirting to be a strong no but because the writer had other plans for his fan-fic you end up with the mess at hand.
The threesome question and people writing different threads about it, I don't think so. Especially if you look at other character being strongly opposed to it, Shadowheart would fit right in. (and she does reject sharing and threesomes with others up until Halsin shows up) Peoples issue is that Halsin just overrides everything and assumes the position of a main character at the expense of the player.
(I don't know if you read or heard about the Harry Potter - My Immortal fan-fic but Halsin reminds me of that.)
Quote
Well, there’s no shortage of “romance” options on the forum today.
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I'd rather stay with Shadowheart than with the Dubai princess. The former might give me headaches when flirting with Halsin, but the latter for sure will give me a computer virus and is already more annoying than the jokes if Dribbles the clown
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^yeah, seeking refuge in this thread if you guys don't mind. does dubai spam posting usually happens?
Damn it people! The hot Dubai girls in my area are gone!
I'm sure they could've written Shadowheart being able to be convinced into a threesome without her cucking the MC. It's the established relationship trajectory warping in the presence of Halsin which is the main culprit here.
In some ways, Larian is predictable. EA Halsin was publicly character-assassinated during the last PFH. And in game, you walk into a brothel and talk to a pair of drow prostitutes...
Larian writing + drow hookers + Gary-Stu Halsin (overriding any and all romance flags) + any companion
I'm sure they could've written Shadowheart being able to be convinced into a threesome without her cucking the MC. It's the established relationship trajectory warping in the presence of Halsin which is the main culprit here.
Nicely put. The scene and the banter are not in line with what you would expect from Shadowheart. It contradicts and in all honesty ruins her character. They could've removed the banter and written that scene with her rejecting Halsins proposition. Then leave it up to the player to have a persuasion check to change her mind (although I think a lot of folks wouldn't like that either lol) but they went with her strait up chasing Halsin and ignoring the MC.
A romance path that ends in a partner revealing that they want someone else is not an appealing one.
I'm sure they could've written Shadowheart being able to be convinced into a threesome without her cucking the MC. It's the established relationship trajectory warping in the presence of Halsin which is the main culprit here.
In some ways, Larian is predictable. EA Halsin was publicly character-assassinated during the last PFH. And in game, you walk into a brothel and talk to a pair of drow prostitutes...
Larian writing + drow hookers + Gary-Stu Halsin (overriding any and all romance flags) + any companion
Is it all really surprising?
Not going to have these problems because Halsin is never leaving camp because he’s the least compelling companion and the other Druid is one of the best.
In my new playthrough, I will just instantly kill him in the goblin camp, After all, oh no, a bear, it's dangerous. kill it. I hope this won't make certain characters mad at me. XD
Damn, i dodged a bullet thanks to Orin. Wood elf Druid sleeping under baldurs gate while my human male fighter enjoys his retirement on a farm with a selunite shadowheart. Sounds like a made a good choice not cheating on her as well or considering any foursomes.
I'm sure they could've written Shadowheart being able to be convinced into a threesome without her cucking the MC. It's the established relationship trajectory warping in the presence of Halsin which is the main culprit here.
In some ways, Larian is predictable. EA Halsin was publicly character-assassinated during the last PFH. And in game, you walk into a brothel and talk to a pair of drow prostitutes...
Larian writing + drow hookers + Gary-Stu Halsin (overriding any and all romance flags) + any companion
Is it all really surprising?
Not going to have these problems because Halsin is never leaving camp because he’s the least compelling companion and the other Druid is one of the best.
Yeah, I guess, that is the best solution in regards to Halsin. On the plus side, he will get
abducted by Orin
and I will kill her last and don't have to see him for the vast majority of act 3 - win-win. And I mean,
I could just provoke Orin, so that Halsin accidently gets killed
- perfect.
And sorry for talking crap about Dribbles, the clown #justicefordribbles
I'm sure they could've written Shadowheart being able to be convinced into a threesome without her cucking the MC. It's the established relationship trajectory warping in the presence of Halsin which is the main culprit here.
In some ways, Larian is predictable. EA Halsin was publicly character-assassinated during the last PFH. And in game, you walk into a brothel and talk to a pair of drow prostitutes...
Larian writing + drow hookers + Gary-Stu Halsin (overriding any and all romance flags) + any companion
Is it all really surprising?
Not going to have these problems because Halsin is never leaving camp because he’s the least compelling companion and the other Druid is one of the best.
Yeah, I guess, that is the best solution in regards to Halsin. On the plus side, he will get
abducted by Orin
and I will kill her last and don't have to see him for the vast majority of act 3 - win-win. And I mean,
I could just provoke Orin, so that Halsin accidently gets killed
- perfect.
And sorry for talking crap about Dribbles, the clown #justicefordribbles
#JusticeForDribbles Please make Dribbles a romanceable origin companion who only speaks in puns and “Wa-Hey”s. We demand more Dribbles banter!
Oh yeah. That makes sense. I mean, who wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who's dreaming about having sex with someone else who's just a few steps away from you? And will jump to sleep with that person the first chance they've got and will openly flirt with them while you're around AND disapprove of you if you deny them the chance to have sex with said person. Seems a very good and healthy relationship. Especially if you're not into poly at all and just want an old and boring monogamous relationship.
Words aren't actions. I don't read into it that she has any desire to sneak away with anyone else just because she makes a few flirty jokes. If my partner was honest and sincere with me in a way that Shadowheart is in private, I would trust them to not be inconsiderate and hurtful towards me, and not jump to any premature conclusions based on some comments. Maybe her disapproval is a sign of her getting bad vibes from you that you are being possessive and don't trust her.
Bro, I cannot fathom how you are convincing yourself of this. Words are not actions but they do convey INTENTIONS. Also, considering she dreamt about her interaction with Halsin, already suggests an 'action'. Even if she wants to do that 'Action' she cannot unless they have coded that in the game, so the closest thing we can get is her dreaming of Halsin, and her intentions based on what she is saying. So even if they are just Words, they are all that we can rely on to move forward in the story, showing the intentions of the characters, and what they actually want to do. So no, its also not a "premature conclusion based on some comments" thing, because we know what happens in the game: she dreams of Halsin, disapproves when you do not let them sleep with each other, flirts with Halsin even after her romance is completed. Shadowheart dreaming of sleeping with Halsin, and wanting to get with him is BTW a form of EMOTIONAL CHEATING. I do not know if you have heard of this considering, you may be into this ShadowCuck thing.
But also, the fact that you approve of Shadowheart making "few flirty jokes" to other companions while you are in a romantic relationship with her is just... disgusting. And no her disapproval is just not her getting bad vibes from you, because you are being possessive. At that point of the story, you have already explored her romance and know that you have each other as romantic partners. Let me tell you, it is normal for people to be possessive of each other when they are in a romantic relationship. Shadowheart demonstrates this 'possessiveness' when you try to romance other companions and you are already with her, and will even end your romantic relationship, as she does not want to share you. So bottomline is, she is not disapproving of you because of "bad vibes", wtf that is so shallow. And no she should not be disapproving of you because you are being possessive, that should be normal as the MC and her is in a relationship in game. BOTH Halsin, and her disapprove of you at the same time, because you disagree with them getting together, simple as that, and it is so clear to see. Open your eyes.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
Even if she actually wants to do that
WTF... hahahah I do not know what to say anymore.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
Looking at the other thread regarding Halsin, the main issue seems to lie there. Once Halsin becomes a companion, they seem to have decided to lean very heavily into the daddy-bear joke and assume that those who bring Halsin along are the ones who are interested in exploring that whole poly-dad-bear story arc (since there's no role for him to fill otherwise with Jaheira as the more obvious canon character). Unless I am missing something there are no quests in act 3 where he plays any major part, so the writing assumes that you only brought him along for bear jokes and poly-romance and they make Shadowheart adapt to that. If Shadowheart didn't play along, would we have threads with people complaining that they wanted to have a Shadowheart threesome, but she is too much of a prude to go along with it and it ruins their fun?
As Rotsen has written in the original post, and as I have also written in my earlier post, regarding this Shadowheart threesome and people complaining. Larian could have made it so that for people who really wants to have threesome moment with Shadowheart, they could make it so that she will agree with this kind of thing if she takes the Evil or Shar Route in game, that way her character background would actually be more fitting- as Shar is into doing evil acts, so I would agree if she would not mind having threesomes or orgies, or poly romances. However, they could also have made it so that if players choose the Selunite Shadowheart or the good Shadowheart route, then she will be more possessive of the MC, given everything that she has been through, and would not want to share the MC with others. I think this is the best option Larian could have made.
Bro, I cannot fathom how you are convincing yourself of this. Words are not actions but they do convey INTENTIONS. Also, considering she dreamt about her interaction with Halsin, already suggests an 'action'. Even if she wants to do that 'Action' she cannot unless they have coded that in the game, so the closest thing we can get is her dreaming of Halsin, and her intentions based on what she is saying. So even if they are just Words, they are all that we can rely on to move forward in the story, showing the intentions of the characters, and what they actually want to do. So no, its also not a "premature conclusion based on some comments" thing, because we know what happens in the game: she dreams of Halsin, disapproves when you do not let them sleep with each other, flirts with Halsin even after her romance is completed. Shadowheart dreaming of sleeping with Halsin, and wanting to get with him is BTW a form of EMOTIONAL CHEATING. I do not know if you have heard of this considering, you may be into this ShadowCuck thing.
But also, the fact that you approve of Shadowheart making "few flirty jokes" to other companions while you are in a romantic relationship with her is just... disgusting. And no her disapproval is just not her getting bad vibes from you, because you are being possessive. At that point of the story, you have already explored her romance and know that you have each other as romantic partners. Let me tell you, it is normal for people to be possessive of each other when they are in a romantic relationship. Shadowheart demonstrates this 'possessiveness' when you try to romance other companions and you are already with her, and will even end your romantic relationship, as she does not want to share you. So bottomline is, she is not disapproving of you because of "bad vibes", wtf that is so shallow. And no she should not be disapproving of you because you are being possessive, that should be normal as the MC and her is in a relationship in game. BOTH Halsin, and her disapprove of you at the same time, because you disagree with them getting together, simple as that, and it is so clear to see. Open your eyes.
As Rotsen has written in the original post, and as I have also written in my earlier post, regarding this Shadowheart threesome and people complaining. Larian could have made it so that for people who really wants to have threesome moment with Shadowheart, they could make it so that she will agree with this kind of thing if she takes the Evil or Shar Route in game, that way her character background would actually be more fitting- as Shar is into doing evil acts, so I would agree if she would not mind having threesomes or orgies, or poly romances. However, they could also have made it so that if players choose the Selunite Shadowheart or the good Shadowheart route, then she will be more possessive of the MC, given everything that she has been through, and would not want to share the MC with others. I think this is the best option Larian could have made.
Dreams aren't intentional, I have no control over what happens in my dreams. What I do when I am awake and conscious is what I can control. What I am saying is that sexual thoughts and fantasies aren't a betrayal as long as you leave them at that.
Whether sexual activities between consenting adults are "evil acts" is a matter of personal belief which is a discussion that I don't think anyone wants to get into. I'll just leave it at that I don't agree that it has anything to do with being evil or not.
Oh yeah. That makes sense. I mean, who wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who's dreaming about having sex with someone else who's just a few steps away from you? And will jump to sleep with that person the first chance they've got and will openly flirt with them while you're around AND disapprove of you if you deny them the chance to have sex with said person. Seems a very good and healthy relationship. Especially if you're not into poly at all and just want an old and boring monogamous relationship.
Words aren't actions. I don't read into it that she has any desire to sneak away with anyone else just because she makes a few flirty jokes. If my partner was honest and sincere with me in a way that Shadowheart is in private, I would trust them to not be inconsiderate and hurtful towards me, and not jump to any premature conclusions based on some comments. Maybe her disapproval is a sign of her getting bad vibes from you that you are being possessive and don't trust her.
If your partner gaslights you about being possessive/don't trust me, it's over.
Don't know why we're arguing about real relationships when Shadowheart is fictional.
Hey man! She is real! lol XD
Stories and fictional characters have always been the source/topic of a many debate/discussions because they invoke certain emotions and responses from people. And seeing how this is a discussion about romances it is expected for the real world to seep in from time to time.
But as high as my disgust/dislike is for what the writer did with Shadowheart it is good advice to remember that its still fiction.
I do hope that people keep talking about it and why they dont want these kind of things in their games so that maybe Larian in the future ends up changing it. (Some future patch or Definitive Edition) You know, the whole make noise thing.
As selfish as it sounds, I do expect games to cater to the main character and not work against the player. And if this thread is any indicator so do the others.
(simplified version of my post - Hey man this is a game and I play games to have fun, I don't want those games to lie to me and try to cuck me. Also I would appreciate it if you kept your self inserts/fan-fics to yourself when making/writing stories for general audiences.)
Don't know why we're arguing about real relationships when Shadowheart is fictional.
Hey man! She is real! lol XD
Stories and fictional characters have always been the source/topic of a many debate/discussions because they invoke certain emotions and responses from people. And seeing how this is a discussion about romances it is expected for the real world to seep in from time to time.
But as high as my disgust/dislike is for what the writer did with Shadowheart it is good advice to remember that its still fiction.
I do hope that people keep talking about it and why they dont want these kind of things in their games so that maybe Larian in the future ends up changing it. (Some future patch or Definitive Edition) You know, the whole make noise thing.
As selfish as it sounds, I do expect games to cater to the main character and not work against the player. And if this thread is any indicator so do the others.
(simplified version of my post - Hey man this is a game and I play games to have fun, I don't want those games to lie to me and try to cuck me. Also I would appreciate it if you kept your self inserts/fan-fics to yourself when making/writing stories for general audiences.)
Okay that's fair, and you're entitled to your feedback on the game. I was more speaking to the general meta-discussion going on regarding the ethics of relationship dynamics, which I felt threatened to derail the focus of the discussion being within the game world and our experience of it, as opposed to beyond the game world and our judgments of actual relationships. To reiterate, I have no horse in the race because I will never have this problem with Halsin, who stays in camp (where he belongs).
Okay that's fair, and you're entitled to your feedback on the game. I was more speaking to the general meta-discussion going on regarding the ethics of relationship dynamics, which I felt threatened to derail the focus of the discussion being within the game world and our experience of it, as opposed to beyond the game world and our judgments of actual relationships. To reiterate, I have no horse in the race because I will never have this problem with Halsin, who stays in camp (where he belongs).
Gotcha!
You might not wanna hear this but that plan with Halsin staying in camp doesn't really work. I think I already mentioned this/used this example but it doesn't matter whether you find out the truth or not Kagha IS working with the shadow druids and the same applies to Shadowheart.
She is longing for Halsin despite you not going to the brothel, (which I didn't, my introduction to this shit show came from the unavoidable banter) that scene just shines the light on the whole situation. That's why I keep saying its devious and malicious. It makes no sense for the character and it honestly servers as an insult to the player.
Its in bad taste to write a romance that not only contradicts the rest of the characters story but also to basically say you are wasting time romancing this character because they are reserved for another.
Maybe try killing him in the goblin camp to evade that, but then again removing that shit entirely would be better.
Marriage is like a Paladin Oath. Adultery violates your oath. Welcome to divorce court. However there are no marriages in this game, so nobody is under oath yet.
I'm usually not active on social media and forums. But, for some reason, this thread and others have become a laughing stock on facebook bg3 groups by a community that calls itself inclusive and welcoming. So, since any words of criticism were called incels' crying and kinksshaming, I decided to add my two cents too. To get the whole picture, three facts need to be stated. First of all I was really looking forward to the release of this game and had a great time until the third act.I don't remember the last time I was so interested in anything. Secondly, I decided to romance Shadowheart only because I saw another thread about her not agreeing to polygamy. And finally, my ex-wife cheated on me over 2 years ago. When I finished the Shadowheart quest and saw her banter with Halsin, I thought it was strange but I didn't care much about it. Unfortunately, as fate would have it, when I met the drow twins, I had Halsin on my team. You must understand that the game absorbed me so much that after completing the conversation, I often reloaded to see what other dialogue options looked like. For some unknown reason when Larian decided to throw it in my face that even my fictional in-game character wasn't enough to satisfy the person he was involved with, the trauma, fears and insecurities I thought I had overcome resurfaced. Fortunately, only for a moment. But I was so embarrassed by my reaction that I didn't even check if others were also bothered by it.Two weeks have passed and I still can't bring myself to play the game again. For me, games have always been a safe haven that allowed me to break away from the gray everyday life. It seems those days are over. Even though I probably won't finish the game, I wanted to thank you all for deciding to raise this topic, thanks to which I could accidentally end up here. Knowing that even people without life baggage found this scene disturbing is... easing. Since there are people here who decided to give very enlightened advice about relationships, I will also give you one. If you are ever in a relationship and your partner starts behaving in a similar way, not as primitive as here, I don't know how shameless you would have to be to do as the writer presented it, but if you start to feel that you are a third wheel in conversations and your partner starts talking too much about who they like. This is not a flag but a horn from hell that this relationship is over and your partner is simply too much of a coward to face you. I don't wish anyone to feel this indescribable feeling when you are betrayed by the person you loved the most and I'm sorry you had to read yet another post from a crying incel.
There's a BG3 group clowning forum posters? Not to our faces? COME OUT YE COWARDS AND FACE ME. I BECKON THEE; NAY, I SUMMON THEE. YOU THINK YOU CAN MOCK US LIKE SOME VILLAINS IN THE DARK? COME OUT OF YOUR PRECIOUS LITTLE ECHO CHAMBER AND FACE ME LIKE THE WARRIOR I KNOW YOU ARE INSIDE!
Anyway, I don't want to be dismissive of your life experiences, CryingOnion, but I think you may need to talk to someone, like a professional, about what's going on in your life. I know talking to a professional has become somewhat stigmatized, but there is no shame in it, and if it helps you through something then it can only benefit. Your feelings are real and valid, but they may have less to do with Baldur's Gate 3 the video game, and more to do with what you feel inside not having an outlet. I've gone through tough times and sought professional help before. If something is causing you pain this deep, perhaps you just need help getting picked up off the ground.
I'm usually not active on social media and forums. But, for some reason, this thread and others have become a laughing stock on facebook bg3 groups by a community that calls itself inclusive and welcoming. So, since any words of criticism were called incels' crying and kinksshaming, I decided to add my two cents too. To get the whole picture, three facts need to be stated. First of all I was really looking forward to the release of this game and had a great time until the third act.I don't remember the last time I was so interested in anything. Secondly, I decided to romance Shadowheart only because I saw another thread about her not agreeing to polygamy. And finally, my ex-wife cheated on me over 2 years ago. When I finished the Shadowheart quest and saw her banter with Halsin, I thought it was strange but I didn't care much about it. Unfortunately, as fate would have it, when I met the drow twins, I had Halsin on my team. You must understand that the game absorbed me so much that after completing the conversation, I often reloaded to see what other dialogue options looked like. For some unknown reason when Larian decided to throw it in my face that even my fictional in-game character wasn't enough to satisfy the person he was involved with, the trauma, fears and insecurities I thought I had overcome resurfaced. Fortunately, only for a moment. But I was so embarrassed by my reaction that I didn't even check if others were also bothered by it.Two weeks have passed and I still can't bring myself to play the game again. For me, games have always been a safe haven that allowed me to break away from the gray everyday life. It seems those days are over. Even though I probably won't finish the game, I wanted to thank you all for deciding to raise this topic, thanks to which I could accidentally end up here. Knowing that even people without life baggage found this scene disturbing is... easing. Since there are people here who decided to give very enlightened advice about relationships, I will also give you one. If you are ever in a relationship and your partner starts behaving in a similar way, not as primitive as here, I don't know how shameless you would have to be to do as the writer presented it, but if you start to feel that you are a third wheel in conversations and your partner starts talking too much about who they like. This is not a flag but a horn from hell that this relationship is over and your partner is simply too much of a coward to face you. I don't wish anyone to feel this indescribable feeling when you are betrayed by the person you loved the most and I'm sorry you had to read yet another post from a crying incel.
I really don't want to come of as insensitive and I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us, about the game and real life but I think you need to take a good break my dude.
If what you say is true and the cheating you have experienced has shaken you so much that any reminder of it leads to those hurtful memories resurfacing I think it might be a good time to do something about it. Do remember that this is still a game, you might dislike the said fiction but it should never affect you so.
As for Facebook, lol. No one should concern themselves with what a bunch of balding cuckolds, fat bronies and zoophile degenerates have to say. Oh no! Not the 'kinkshaming' lol.
Either way, take care of yourself. And if you are trolling 4/10.
edit. Seems Zerubbabel was faster, but yeah if what you say is true do listen to his advice.
^hey @cryingonion, i'm going to suspect the people not taking this matter seriously were alike like me, i thought the scene was bugged and that the game detected a halsin romance flag along with shadowheart, but, that is not the case.
Gale quite literally gets cucked. Before i post his scene i have to add that gale and wyll are compltely only monogamous. halsin can ask you to ask them if they are willing to share, but they will say no. keep this in mind, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3Cf7ryl_XA at 4:!7
Halsin injects himself and asks to join, similar to how shadowheart's scene was, and gale says a half heartly "sure" then proceeds to stay back and watch as your character goes down town with halsin. it's absolutely crazy though what shadowheart choose to say if this was 100% intentional. with no romance flags of halsin triggered, she admits that she's been dreaming of halsin. i still think it's odd though, i'm now 50 on this being bugged, and 50 of it being intentional thanks to gale's drow scene
Okay folks, it’s past my bedtime and I don’t have time to fully read this thread but on an initial glance there’s far too much going on about “cucks” (which I confess is a term that I find icky) as well as some other posts that are pushing it when it comes to civil, constructive engagement.
Let’s tone it down and try to use less loaded and emotive terminology when discussing topics that can impinge on very personal parts of people’s real lives.
After reading this Im glad Halsin completely bugged out for my first playthrough, SH was my MC's sole romance and I enjoyed that process while rejecting all else.
I am once again challenging Facebook Group lurkers to single combat.
My only opinion on this topic is that poly should be something actively pursued by the player, not the default setting. I mean this in no way as a judgment on people who partake in this type of life; I simply think most people would prefer the mono setting as standard with the option to switch to poly.
I am once again challenging Facebook Group lurkers to single combat.
My only opinion on this topic is that poly should be something actively pursued by the player, not the default setting. I mean this in no way as a judgment on people who partake in this type of life; I simply think most people would prefer the mono setting as standard with the option to switch to poly.
I think that if the player is romancing both of them, okay, no problem at all with the banters, scenes, etc. Heck, it's a great option for those who like it. (Although I still think that SH is not the best option for this from what we have learned about her until then) However, the moment it's forced down as something that is beyond player choices and makes them uncomfortable it shouldn't be allowed, simple as that.
I'm doing a new run because I really love Shadowheart, so to "fix" this issue, I'll just kill Halsin once I meet him as he really doesn't add anything useful for me, since I don't care about the bear joke, AND I cannot deny him joining my camp after the party, which I find ridiculous and absurd. Heck, you can deny anyone from joining you or going to your camp, but you can't deny him, tsc. At least I tried all the lines in my last game and none led to saying no, I don't want you to follow me. Unless I'm missing something there.
I am once again challenging Facebook Group lurkers to single combat.
My only opinion on this topic is that poly should be something actively pursued by the player, not the default setting. I mean this in no way as a judgment on people who partake in this type of life; I simply think most people would prefer the mono setting as standard with the option to switch to poly.
Well, if you remove everything where the player isn't actively pursuing or suggesting some form of sexual experimenting, the only thing that occurs are three lines of banter between SH and Halsin. Given that all of the companions seem horny most of the time and unashamedly brings this up at every opportunity (I am looking at YOU Gale, take a hint!), I don't feel that the writing really wrestled the reins out of the player's hands on this one. Everything stays the same between the main character and SH for the rest of the story as long as you don't pursue something, so I would say that the relationship is monogamous by default.
If my partner took me along to a pair of sex workers and initiated a discussion about exchanging sexual favours, I'd take that as a pretty strong hint that they are up for some sexual experimenting, and I would consider it a pretty underhanded move to then guilt me about going along with it.
I am once again challenging Facebook Group lurkers to single combat.
My only opinion on this topic is that poly should be something actively pursued by the player, not the default setting. I mean this in no way as a judgment on people who partake in this type of life; I simply think most people would prefer the mono setting as standard with the option to switch to poly.
Well, if you remove everything where the player isn't actively pursuing or suggesting some form of sexual experimenting, the only thing that occurs are three lines of banter between SH and Halsin. Given that all of the companions seem horny most of the time and unashamedly brings this up at every opportunity (I am looking at YOU Gale, take a hint!), I don't feel that the writing really wrestled the reins out of the player's hands on this one. Everything stays the same between the main character and SH for the rest of the story as long as you don't pursue something, so I would say that the relationship is monogamous by default.
If my partner took me along to a pair of sex workers and initiated a discussion about exchanging sexual favours, I'd take that as a pretty strong hint that they are up for some sexual experimenting, and I would consider it a pretty underhanded move to then guilt me about going along with it.
Haven't gotten this banter because Halsin never leaves camp. It sounds like the problem isn't poly, but that the game is terminally horny. Which has been a focal point of irritation in many other threads on different issues in this game, from companions to dialogue options to event triggers to NPCs to banter.
I am once again challenging Facebook Group lurkers to single combat.
My only opinion on this topic is that poly should be something actively pursued by the player, not the default setting. I mean this in no way as a judgment on people who partake in this type of life; I simply think most people would prefer the mono setting as standard with the option to switch to poly.
Well, if you remove everything where the player isn't actively pursuing or suggesting some form of sexual experimenting, the only thing that occurs are three lines of banter between SH and Halsin. Given that all of the companions seem horny most of the time and unashamedly brings this up at every opportunity (I am looking at YOU Gale, take a hint!), I don't feel that the writing really wrestled the reins out of the player's hands on this one. Everything stays the same between the main character and SH for the rest of the story as long as you don't pursue something, so I would say that the relationship is monogamous by default.
If my partner took me along to a pair of sex workers and initiated a discussion about exchanging sexual favours, I'd take that as a pretty strong hint that they are up for some sexual experimenting, and I would consider it a pretty underhanded move to then guilt me about going along with it.
Haven't gotten this banter because Halsin never leaves camp. It sounds like the problem isn't poly, but that the game is terminally horny. Which has been a focal point of irritation in many other threads on different issues in this game, from companions to dialogue options to event triggers to NPCs to banter.
I never got the banter either, because I didn't remove the shadow curse, so Halsin had to stay behind. Just going with the statements given in the thread.
I do like my companions slutty and horny all the time, but I can see where it may not be everyone's cup of tea
I haven't encountered this yet because I'm only just now getting into a playthrough where I'm taking Halsin along, but it does sound like it's in poor taste to force that on a player.
If I was in a monogamous relationship with someone who suddenly wanted a foursome with my buddy and a couple of prostitutes, I would be single. That is an enormous character flaw.
I suppose it's all a matter of taste. I think my enjoyment of the game would have been enhanced if it were slightly less preoccupied with sex and sexuality in every other moment and spent more time on other features of human relationships and interpersonal dynamics. The romances and moments of emotional intimacy are nice sequences to offer the player character as a means of developing both the PC and one or more companions, but outside of that, I felt Baldur's Gate 3 was a bit too horny for my tastes. If other people are enjoying it, however, more power to them.
I suppose it's all a matter of taste. I think my enjoyment of the game would have been enhanced if it were slightly less preoccupied with sex and sexuality in every other moment and spent more time on other features of human relationships and interpersonal dynamics. The romances and moments of emotional intimacy are nice sequences to offer the player character as a means of developing both the PC and one or more companions, but outside of that, I felt Baldur's Gate 3 was a bit too horny for my tastes. If other people are enjoying it, however, more power to them.
That makes a lot of sense. I want emotional depth, comradery, sisterhood and companionship as well. Give me everything, including the naughty
I suppose it's all a matter of taste. I think my enjoyment of the game would have been enhanced if it were slightly less preoccupied with sex and sexuality in every other moment and spent more time on other features of human relationships and interpersonal dynamics. The romances and moments of emotional intimacy are nice sequences to offer the player character as a means of developing both the PC and one or more companions, but outside of that, I felt Baldur's Gate 3 was a bit too horny for my tastes. If other people are enjoying it, however, more power to them.
I can see valid points from all sides when it comes to all of this, but I seriously don't know what game you all are playing if you're experiencing so much sex that it gets distracting. I mean, there's hundreds of conversations between companions, between Tav and companions, and plenty of scenes and I'd say more than 90% of companion interactions are non-sexual. I get that some people don't want romance, some want more, some less, some in other ways, some want more friendship, but really, it's not THAT much sexual content considering the amount of hours of gameplay there is in this game. Reading the threads around here make it sound like it's some sort of sex game.
So, like...can anyone tell me what game you're actually playing, asking for a friend
I suppose it's all a matter of taste. I think my enjoyment of the game would have been enhanced if it were slightly less preoccupied with sex and sexuality in every other moment and spent more time on other features of human relationships and interpersonal dynamics. The romances and moments of emotional intimacy are nice sequences to offer the player character as a means of developing both the PC and one or more companions, but outside of that, I felt Baldur's Gate 3 was a bit too horny for my tastes. If other people are enjoying it, however, more power to them.
I can see valid points from all sides when it comes to all of this, but I seriously don't know what game you all are playing if you're experiencing so much sex that it gets distracting. I mean, there's hundreds of conversations between companions, between Tav and companions, and plenty of scenes and I'd say more than 90% of companion interactions are non-sexual. I get that some people don't want romance, some want more, some less, some in other ways, some want more friendship, but really, it's not THAT much sexual content considering the amount of hours of gameplay there is in this game. Reading the threads around here make it sound like it's some sort of sex game.
So, like...can anyone tell me what game you're actually playing, asking for a friend
I’m probably not the person to make this point to, as my complaint is that it’s a slight annoyance, rather than a game breaking sexperience. Other folks in the general sub forum have bigger issues than I do.
But 10% is a lot not in itself, but compared to the historic norm it is. 20 years ago, it was 0%. 10 years ago, maybe 5%. I’d say the biggest issue is with the main way to relate to characters being locked behind romance sequences, and some rather on the nose script moments, but that’s more Larian writing lacking subtlety than anything else.
Characters hit on each other in banter more than other prior RPGs. Think you’re into them than prior RPGS. Come onto you more than prior RPGs. Some NPCs (even outside the brothel) prioritize sex in conversation when other plot points should take precedence (looking at Aylin, but Aylin also has a terminal case of Paladin-Brain, so it’s a bit better).
Sharess has 4-5 unique prostitute encounters, one involving multiple companions.
Ogre and bugbear sequence.
Emperor romance sequence, even if you decline.
Halsin being a sex slave for 2 years, casually.
Some of the goblins have pretty sus dialogue outcomes.
Trying to solve a murder? Get told you’re a sub in need of punishment.
Araj Oblodora being Astarion’s main character moment in Moonrise. Not overtly sexual, but definitely has undertones.
You are always free to say, "no" or to pick other dialogue choices making clear your intent to keep things on the 'friend' level instead of romantic.
Some want more, some want less, some want none. Can't keep everyone happy - personally I think they got it just right for the vast majority of those that will play the game.
You are of course free to hold your own opinions, but calling this game-breaking is a bit overstating the issue. You can always say, "no".
You are always free to say, "no" or to pick other dialogue choices making clear your intent to keep things on the 'friend' level instead of romantic.
Some want more, some want less, some want none. Can't keep everyone happy - personally I think they got it just right for the vast majority of those that will play the game.
You are of course free to hold your own opinions, but calling this game-breaking is a bit overstating the issue. You can always say, "no".
I didn’t call it game-breaking. I specifically said it wasn’t game-breaking, just slightly annoying.
Edit: Also, I didn’t put down the list to say it was all horrible.
-I said it was a matter of personal taste and the game was somewhat too horny for me. -Response to me said the game wasn’t horny. -I provide examples of the game being horny. -You said “Just say no.”
I AM saying no. Game is excellent, just slightly too horny for my personal tastes, and there are the examples.
I can't speak for others but for me the problem isn't in the amount of sexual encounters this game has but in the way it was all handled. When I play BG3 I cannot but feel its overreliance on sex/sexuality while not deepening other aspects of the game and human relationships/interpersonal dynamics like Zerubbabel mentioned in one of their previous posts.
Maybe it comes from Larians lack of subtlety mixed with not so stellar writing but outside of the main quest everything comes of as a joke. Its serious moments, its deeper moments are overshadowed by the constant barrage of sex jokes/sexual innuendos.
Add to that the mistake of making all of the companions player sexual and you've got yourself a sexually charged mess.
Romances have their place in RPGs but doing them the right way is not going to be easy, they are complex and if you ignore that you end up with what Larian gave us.
Papercut_ninja - I don't think the issue is with flirty banter or the player driven brothel scene in itself but more with that flirty banter happening after the relationship between the MC and the companion was already established and the words spoken during the brothel scene.
As for your statement of liking/wanting companions to be slutty and horny all the time lol, I think we're gonna disagree on that one but more power to you
I think Shadowheart it's okay with an open relationship (hooking up with other people) but not a polyamorous relationship (having relationship with someonelse). We can argue that some thing should be said BEFORE starting a relationship (she is hurt if you hook up with Mizora because you didn't ask her), but I don't think she is written as "poly" because of Halsin. The reason why only with Halsin you can have a sort of poly relationship it's probably because the possible combination among companions were too many. They could have handled it better, but I think they wrote SH as ok with open relationship... because that's who she is, simply enough. But I agree that the player should be able to discuss this with the romanced partner (even just talking with SH and telling her that "You want to be 100% exclusive, no hook up or exception admitted" would be good. She seems okay either way actually).
The writers had no problem in writing strictly monogamous characters (Laezel, Gale, Wyll), if they wanted that for SH they would've done it.
I can't speak for others but for me the problem isn't in the amount of sexual encounters this game has but in the way it was all handled. When I play BG3 I cannot but feel its overreliance on sex/sexuality while not deepening other aspects of the game and human relationships/interpersonal dynamics like Zerubbabel mentioned in one of their previous posts.
Maybe it comes from Larians lack of subtlety mixed with not so stellar writing but outside of the main quest everything comes of as a joke. Its serious moments, its deeper moments are overshadowed by the constant barrage of sex jokes/sexual innuendos.
Add to that the mistake of making all of the companions player sexual and you've got yourself a sexually charged mess.
Romances have their place in RPGs but doing them the right way is not going to be easy, they are complex and if you ignore that you end up with what Larian gave us.
Papercut_ninja - I don't think the issue is with flirty banter or the player driven brothel scene in itself but more with that flirty banter happening after the relationship between the MC and the companion was already established and the words spoken during the brothel scene.
As for your statement of liking/wanting companions to be slutty and horny all the time lol, I think we're gonna disagree on that one but more power to you
I am over in the camp where in an imaginary world you can have both sexual tension as well as other deep story arcs and relationships. Whether the writing did that well or not I guess is up to personal taste. I can roll with having a character that is sensitve, romantic and horny at the same time.
I think Shadowheart it's okay with an open relationship (hooking up with other people) but not a polyamorous relationship (having relationship with someonelse). We can argue that some thing should be said BEFORE starting a relationship (she is hurt if you hook up with Mizora because you didn't ask her), but I don't think she is written as "poly" because of Halsin. The reason why only with Halsin you can have a sort of poly relationship it's probably because the possible combination among companions were too many. They could have handled it better, but I think they wrote SH as ok with open relationship... because that's who she is, simply enough. But I agree that the player should be able to discuss this with the romanced partner (even just talking with SH and telling her that "You want to be 100% exclusive, no hook up or exception admitted" would be good. She seems okay either way actually).
The writers had no problem in writing strictly monogamous characters (Laezel, Gale, Wyll), if they wanted that for SH they would've done it.
I think some may be conflating Shart’s apprehension about emotional vulnerability and a committed relationship with a lack of interest in physical and social “exploration.” She has many lines indicating her interest in more creative experiences, but is slow to open up to the PC, as it is a more emotional experience she has in mind. I don’t think it is a contradiction of character. Poorly handled and lacking in consideration of player agency, maybe, but not a contradiction.
You are always free to say, "no" or to pick other dialogue choices making clear your intent to keep things on the 'friend' level instead of romantic.
Some want more, some want less, some want none. Can't keep everyone happy - personally I think they got it just right for the vast majority of those that will play the game.
You are of course free to hold your own opinions, but calling this game-breaking is a bit overstating the issue. You can always say, "no".
I think outside of a small minority, no one thinks it's game-breaking. But, as you can see on this and other threads some of us think it's not that well done. Some of the points the devs have addressed already, but basically it comes down to:
- Romance/sex giving you a lot of extra content in terms of scenes and dialogue you can't get otherwise. Friendship, group camaraderie, even banter is fa less well developed. - At the start of the game it often feels forced/immersion breaking that literally everyone is hitting on you (you can decline, but it's still a bit weird). Personally for me -
even the Emperor
hitting on you half undressed was almost comically, cringe writing. It had to laugh. A real WTF moment.
It still love the game, I think it's great. I'm on my third playthrough (one Tav, one resisting Durge, and one evil Durge so far), but in my view it would have been better if they focused a bit less on romance and a bit more on other personal relationship types and group interactions. There is not telling if they got it just right for the vast majority of those that will play the game. It could be, but as long as we don't have data on that, it's hard to say either way.
The thing that made me stop playing was Shadowheart and Halsin. I didn't even get to the part were she basically admits to you she likes him more than you (again, for what I've read, I haven't got that far), stopped mid act-2 after reading a couple of posts like this one.
Why in a ROLEPLAY game, where you're supposed to immerse yourself with your character and the story will something like this happen? Specially with those two characters. Most people (I assumed) will want to keep her on their party. Not just for her looks but also her storyline. Not to mention that after the prologue, she's (possibly) the first character you'll see. And Halsin is FORCED to join you. I never want him in my party. I play these types of games with a 2 people party set-up, so I did in DOS2 and so was doing here. It's a bit harder but is what makes it fun. Why would you force the interaction OP mentioned? I'm not supposed to explore the world (as far as I know, this happens on a brothel) to avoid this? It almost seems like a punishment for exploring to those who romanced SH and got Halsin on their party. Why put the polygamy shit to begin with? Those are very sensitive topics, not to be treated loosely on a videogame. At least in my opinion, of course.
Again, not to cry about a videogame but it kinda felt wrong, evil even. And I read she does that AFTER you finished her quest, is that real? Then is like, "I've used you and I don't need you anymore, F U". Doesn't seems to be a bug or a mistake, it's seems to be by design.
The biggest problem to me is that this is a ROLEPLAYING videogame, a niche. People who like this type of games like to immerse themselves in the fantasy, that's why you're roleplaying. And then she goes and do that, without the player consent? it kinda makes you not want to roleplay if you were doing it. It's a 180 to her character arc. The mistery and secretive character, who seems to guard her feeling from anyone. It's secretly a whore? lol. This outcome wasn't foreshadow (to my knowledge), otherwise I would't picked neither her nor would've saved Halsin.
Anyways, enough crying for pixels. lol. It even feels weird to complain about this. I need to touch some grass. Won't be playing the game in a long time (this type of games demand lots of your time). Sorry if somehow Ibsounded disrespectful. I was just annoyed that for what OP explained, I'll have to delete my save file.
To be fair, with all those bugs still in the game I wouldn't be surprised if this is just a false romance flag turned on that would only be active if your character is in a relationship with both Shadowheart and Halsin. It still sucks to read it, I don't think Astarion has lines like this where he fantasizes about Halsin. But you don't have to kill Halsin - you can just keep him in the camp and don't take him with you. Then the banter shouldn't come up. Yes, it is in the game, but like a lot of other dialog that you will only see under certain conditions it doesn't mean if you don't see it in your playthrough that it is still "canon" that it happened.
Still, nothing wrong in letting Larian know how this makes people feel. It will take a while but I still plan to romance Shadowheart in a future playthrough, but I will certainly not visit the brothel with her and Halsin....
To be fair, with all those bugs still in the game I wouldn't be surprised if this is just a false romance flag turned on that would only be active if your character is in a relationship with both Shadowheart and Halsin. It still sucks to read it, I don't think Astarion has lines like this where he fantasizes about Halsin. But you don't have to kill Halsin - you can just keep him in the camp and don't take him with you. Then the banter shouldn't come up. Yes, it is in the game, but like a lot of other dialog that you will only see under certain conditions it doesn't mean if you don't see it in your playthrough that it is still "canon" that it happened.
Still, nothing wrong in letting Larian know how this makes people feel. It will take a while but I still plan to romance Shadowheart in a future playthrough, but I will certainly not visit the brothel with her and Halsin....
Who knows but it doesn't looks like that. As OP showed, she's flirting literally after being with you, and that's another thing, characters flirting after being in a relationship with MC?
It doesn't seems to be a bug but bad/evil game design. Plus bugs doesn't work that way, they'll usually happen to a group of people, not everyone. In all the posts I've seeing people complaining about it, there's not even a single person that said they got a different answer or reaction. It's being made intentionally. Or so it seems to me.
I play games for entertainment, not to end up in a fetish/cheating plot. And as I said, is specifically cruel in a roleplay game.
But whatever, when I decide to play again she's gonna invade my camp and unfortunately die in the process and Halsin is gonna get killed by goblins.
I really thought this game would have been one for the ages, but I'm not so sure anymore (and not just for this situation with Shadowheart).
Some of the things you write seem to be not entirely true. Halsin isn't really forced onto you. You can kill him if you want as you write yourself, the game works just fine if you do.
Even if you have him in your camp, you do not have to have him in your party. I never took him along, so I never got the scene and dialogue between SH and him. If I'm not mistaken, you anyway would only get the scene for a foursome if you first ask for that yourself. If you shut down those drow from the start (or because seen from a PG POV, you are in a relationship as you say, maybe don't approach them at all, because it's clear they are prostitutes), you also wouldn't get that scene, even if you have Halsin in your party, or?
At that point of the story, Halsin's main part if over anyway, so even if you want a druid in your party, you can take Jaheira instead (who has more interactions in Act 3 anyway afaik).
If you romance SH, and you do not make a certain decision in the game to push her to wholly dedicate herself to someone else (but which is probably the most prior telegraphed plot point in the game, so no surprise there), she will not abandon you in the end. If I remember the ending correctly, it's the opposite, you kind of make plans what you'll do together after this is all over.
I also don't think it's ideal, but if you are bothered by it, you can avoid most of it.
I'm usually not active on social media and forums. But, for some reason, this thread and others have become a laughing stock on facebook bg3 groups by a community that calls itself inclusive and welcoming. So, since any words of criticism were called incels' crying and kinksshaming, I decided to add my two cents too. To get the whole picture, three facts need to be stated. First of all I was really looking forward to the release of this game and had a great time until the third act.I don't remember the last time I was so interested in anything. Secondly, I decided to romance Shadowheart only because I saw another thread about her not agreeing to polygamy. And finally, my ex-wife cheated on me over 2 years ago. When I finished the Shadowheart quest and saw her banter with Halsin, I thought it was strange but I didn't care much about it. Unfortunately, as fate would have it, when I met the drow twins, I had Halsin on my team. You must understand that the game absorbed me so much that after completing the conversation, I often reloaded to see what other dialogue options looked like. For some unknown reason when Larian decided to throw it in my face that even my fictional in-game character wasn't enough to satisfy the person he was involved with, the trauma, fears and insecurities I thought I had overcome resurfaced. Fortunately, only for a moment. But I was so embarrassed by my reaction that I didn't even check if others were also bothered by it.Two weeks have passed and I still can't bring myself to play the game again. For me, games have always been a safe haven that allowed me to break away from the gray everyday life. It seems those days are over. Even though I probably won't finish the game, I wanted to thank you all for deciding to raise this topic, thanks to which I could accidentally end up here. Knowing that even people without life baggage found this scene disturbing is... easing. Since there are people here who decided to give very enlightened advice about relationships, I will also give you one. If you are ever in a relationship and your partner starts behaving in a similar way, not as primitive as here, I don't know how shameless you would have to be to do as the writer presented it, but if you start to feel that you are a third wheel in conversations and your partner starts talking too much about who they like. This is not a flag but a horn from hell that this relationship is over and your partner is simply too much of a coward to face you. I don't wish anyone to feel this indescribable feeling when you are betrayed by the person you loved the most and I'm sorry you had to read yet another post from a crying incel.
Hey Man, I truly understand how you feel. I was romancing Shadowheart as well, and was so engrossed in her story that I really took my time to play and enjoy the game. I have seen so much crazy things in this world, relationship-wise that I for once want a good happy ending story. I also find gaming as a way to escape reality, and find solace from the fk ups of this world. Perhaps the ability to do that in game, based on the choices we the players make, is the driving force for me to continue playing the game and actually enjoy the game- to get the journey and ending we want. I did the same thing as you did, I save the game to explore other options, out of curiosity, but I always go back to my 'timeline', to pick the decisions I actually want. And let me tell you, when I was in that Brothel scene, and figured out there is no way to avoid that SH interaction with the drow twins or with Halsin, instead of probably not going to the Brothel, or even just killing Halsin. And the fact that it throws it in my face that SH is actually the opposite of what I thought she would be. Because when you do explore her story enough she becomes so loving and caring and will only want to be with you. And I imagine myself being with someone, who shares the same ideals, I would want to be with someone who cares and be as loving as her, in dark times, through thick and thin, fairy tail ending-stuff like that... But during that scene, everything just went out of the window and she did a complete 180. And I feel so betrayed. After that I could not bear to continue playing the game anymore. Like the desire I have to actually finish the game, and the enjoyment I get from it is no longer there. And yes, I am also glad I have somewhere I can post my thoughts about this, so I am glad to be in this forum, and seeing there are other people who have the same perspective as I do, makes me feel a bit better. But I am telling you, for 4 weeks now, I have not been feeling myself, anymore. I do not have the desire to do anything, my motivation just plummeted. I am not doing good at work. And at home I basically do nothing as well. I try to distract myself by playing other games or by entertaining myself with other media such as reading or watching movies, anime, but none are enjoyable to me. I guess one of the factors is that there are barely other games that can compare to BG3 as far as immersion, and I got too deep into the immersion part but got so disappointed at the end. I hope you find solace, the same way as I did, knowing that you are not alone, we are not alone. Hopefully, time will help us forget this, and that the future will hold something bright for us.
The thing that made me stop playing was Shadowheart and Halsin. I didn't even get to the part were she basically admits to you she likes him more than you (again, for what I've read, I haven't got that far), stopped mid act-2 after reading a couple of posts like this one.
Why in a ROLEPLAY game, where you're supposed to immerse yourself with your character and the story will something like this happen? Specially with those two characters. Most people (I assumed) will want to keep her on their party. Not just for her looks but also her storyline. Not to mention that after the prologue, she's (possibly) the first character you'll see. And Halsin is FORCED to join you. I never want him in my party. I play these types of games with a 2 people party set-up, so I did in DOS2 and so was doing here. It's a bit harder but is what makes it fun. Why would you force the interaction OP mentioned? I'm not supposed to explore the world (as far as I know, this happens on a brothel) to avoid this? It almost seems like a punishment for exploring to those who romanced SH and got Halsin on their party. Why put the polygamy shit to begin with? Those are very sensitive topics, not to be treated loosely on a videogame. At least in my opinion, of course.
Again, not to cry about a videogame but it kinda felt wrong, evil even. And I read she does that AFTER you finished her quest, is that real? Then is like, "I've used you and I don't need you anymore, F U". Doesn't seems to be a bug or a mistake, it's seems to be by design.
The biggest problem to me is that this is a ROLEPLAYING videogame, a niche. People who like this type of games like to immerse themselves in the fantasy, that's why you're roleplaying. And then she goes and do that, without the player consent? it kinda makes you not want to roleplay if you were doing it. It's a 180 to her character arc. The mistery and secretive character, who seems to guard her feeling from anyone. It's secretly a whore? lol. This outcome wasn't foreshadow (to my knowledge), otherwise I would't picked neither her nor would've saved Halsin.
Anyways, enough crying for pixels. lol. It even feels weird to complain about this. I need to touch some grass. Won't be playing the game in a long time (this type of games demand lots of your time). Sorry if somehow Ibsounded disrespectful. I was just annoyed that for what OP explained, I'll have to delete my save file.
Well said man! I could not agree more. It's actually worse if you have been deep, and immersed, in her story already and figured it out too late. I wish I could do the same in game and "load" to an earlier time when I have not started playing or have known about this game at all, knowing it would turn out this way...
The last two posts, jesus. I mean I don't like that she agrees to it either and I'd like it to be rewritten but at the same time this is optional. I went to the brothel, talked to the Drow twins, told them no thanks, and that was the end of it, Shadowheart didn't say a word. If an exclusive relationship is what you were looking for I don't know why you're trying to sleep with the Drow twins in the first place. My take on it is it's something she'll agree to because it's what her significant other wants but not something she's looking for since she never asks you to do it herself and if you want to have an exclusive, monogamous relationship together she's happy to do that.
The last two posts, jesus. I mean I don't like that she agrees to it either and I'd like it to be rewritten but at the same time this is optional. I went to the brothel, talked to the Drow twins, told them no thanks, and that was the end of it, Shadowheart didn't say a word. If an exclusive relationship is what you were looking for I don't know why you're trying to sleep with the Drow twins in the first place. My take on it is it's something she'll agree to because it's what her significant other wants but not something she's looking for since she never asks you to do it herself and if you want to have an exclusive, monogamous relationship together she's happy to do that.
Like I wrote earlier. Imagine your partner taking you to a sex club and initiating an exchange of sexual favours with some sex workers and asking if you want to join. So you agree that if that's what they really want, you are down with getting a bit freaky and exploring some fantasies with other people (and before someone chimes in that this happens out of the blue, do note that this takes several conscious and very clear choices in a dialogue tree to get to). Then they turn that against you, judging you and giving you a guilt trip of shame about it. They are obviously the problem if they pull this sort of emotional entrapment stunt on you, not you!
Now I have personal boundaries around anything that relates to traficking, and for that reason I won't ever make the choice in a game to buy sexual favours. I know this is a trigger for me, so as soon as the option appeared I declined and moved on (I don't have any issues that it exists in a setting, but engaging with it feels very wrong to me). I didn't continue exploring it, out of curiosity or some other strange psychological compulsion, just so I could get triggered and plunge myself into some deep black hole of horrible feelings.
The last two posts, jesus. I mean I don't like that she agrees to it either and I'd like it to be rewritten but at the same time this is optional. I went to the brothel, talked to the Drow twins, told them no thanks, and that was the end of it, Shadowheart didn't say a word. If an exclusive relationship is what you were looking for I don't know why you're trying to sleep with the Drow twins in the first place. My take on it is it's something she'll agree to because it's what her significant other wants but not something she's looking for since she never asks you to do it herself and if you want to have an exclusive, monogamous relationship together she's happy to do that.
100% agree on your take with how shadowheart reacts, also bolstered by the fact she doesnt say anything until you explicitly agree to the foursome, i rejected the idea from the onset and she never says a word nor does she approve or disapprove. Hell the most I did with the drow twins is ask them about their background and shit (and slept with the sister out of curiosity but f8'd after). The only problem bit is the halsin related stuff, but i assume the dialogue especially the party banter (which i never got cause Halsin never left camp after act 2) is bugged and meant for if you have entered a shared relationship with the 2 beforehand. Honestly might be worth a bug report to save me the trauma in future playthroughs.
Some of the things you write seem to be not entirely true. Halsin isn't really forced onto you. You can kill him if you want as you write yourself, the game works just fine if you do.
Even if you have him in your camp, you do not have to have him in your party. I never took him along, so I never got the scene and dialogue between SH and him. If I'm not mistaken, you anyway would only get the scene for a foursome if you first ask for that yourself. If you shut down those drow from the start (or because seen from a PG POV, you are in a relationship as you say, maybe don't approach them at all, because it's clear they are prostitutes), you also wouldn't get that scene, even if you have Halsin in your party, or?
At that point of the story, Halsin's main part if over anyway, so even if you want a druid in your party, you can take Jaheira instead (who has more interactions in Act 3 anyway afaik).
If you romance SH, and you do not make a certain decision in the game to push her to wholly dedicate herself to someone else (but which is probably the most prior telegraphed plot point in the game, so no surprise there), she will not abandon you in the end. If I remember the ending correctly, it's the opposite, you kind of make plans what you'll do together after this is all over.
I also don't think it's ideal, but if you are bothered by it, you can avoid most of it.
My fault, I wrote 'I didn't want him in my party', I meant camp. And yes, to me Halsin is forced, in the same way that Withers is forced, basically if we dont get to choose them (like every other companion), they are forced. Since we can't kick any of them out...
About 'killing him and the game works fine', you're right; I think you can also kill every NPC and the game will works just fine as well, though I'll probably wouldn't do it (maybe if I'm evil Dark Urge?). And that takes me to my point:
This is a ROLEPLAY game. Everything from dialogue, fight, your character, and probably more stuff; are rooted in a roleplay system. Interactions, not trigger by the Main Character, are bad for a ROLEPLAY game.
That's where everything breaks apart to me. I didn't delete my saved file, with all my hours, because I was simping SH (which I wasn't doing); I deleted it because the story I was building with her (with rules and plot established by the game) were broken by her being in love with Halsin.
The Shadowheart that was surviving with my Tav (good Dark Urge) was not what was portrayed by OP post, I didn't even care if she's poly or not, she's not real. But the roleplay factor was gone to me.
Why will the Shadowheart that my Tav was struggling so hard to survive with (I was playing Tactician, with only 2 characters) and that loved him/her so much will want to share him/her when her quest is over? For this to be acceptable, in a roleplay view, Tav should have tried to or already being in a relationship with the other lover.
To be fair, those are my stupid rules. And I know not a lot of people roleplay these games. But to me, that's where the fun is. I could have ignored it and keep playing but as I said, this are the only games that I roleplay. I want to life my little fantasy without a bear trying to bang my partner. lol
But I think we all can agreed that the dialogue lines OP was complaining about are totally OUT OF HER CHARACTER (at least what was shown to us through her conversations).
She's like: 'Halsin, bang me! Tav heals my heart and you dirty my p***y'. That's just wrong.
Disclaimer: I haven't played any of this myself, I've seeing couple of post about it and have generally of how to trigger it but I myself haven't played it.
PS: this is the nerdiest post I've wrote in my life.
Edit: forgot to mention that if MC hasn't shown interest in another lover, and you ended up talking with the drow at the brothel (because you know, videogames), ideally not just Shadowheart but any other partner, that already 'loves you', shouldn't be open to share you. Or at least, show some kind of selfcontrol (to respect of Tav relationship) if they themselves are into polygamy. But anyone, we're talking and only developers know how hard has to be trying to implement any of these stuff. They should hate us. lol
ignoring the halsin stuff ( the one party banter line and what she says in the 5some) which is obviously some writers pet shit and completely out of character assuming she is romanced, nothing is said by the party member about sharing when talking to the drow unless you actually accept the proposal brought up by the drow twins, only after that does anyone including halsin speak.
As for why shadowheart would agree, potionbeans interpretation works best and very much is in line with her character, also she spent her whole life trying to appease shar and mother superior she will do the same for tav, its why she doesnt dump your ass for cheating but says to ask her in advance and mentions past experiences(to make it even and possiblly stir you up) or declares her non jealousy(she is) all in a disapproving tone while putting on a strong front. Though, reading reddit it seems people actually think she was fine with you sleeping with mizora and cant read tones, lots of annoyed gfs if they have any... You are possibly the only loved one in her life, she would rather share you than face the possibility of losing you over a fling or foursome(ok she was kinda enthusiastic about this one but girls can have fantasies as well, but its up to you if it stays one and its not like we wouldnt jump on a ffm threesome/ fffm foursome if she propositioned us about one).
She will gladly break up with you though before nightsong cause she is still split between you and shar.
ignoring the halsin stuff ( the one party banter line and what she says in the 5some) which is obviously some writers pet shit and completely out of character assuming she is romanced, nothing is said by the party member about sharing when talking to the drow unless you actually accept the proposal brought up by the drow twins, only after that does anyone including halsin speak.
As for why shadowheart would agree, potionbeans interpretation works best and very much is in line with her character, she spent her whole life trying to appease shar and mother superior she will do the same for tav, its why she doesnt dump your ass for cheating but says to ask her in advance and mentions past experiences(to make it even and possible stir you up) or declares her non jealousy(she is) all in a disapproving tone while putting on a strong front. The brackets are there cause reading reddit it seems people actually think she was fine with you sleeping with mizora and cant read tones...
Yes, she is emotionally traumatised. After a certain point in the relationship she would let Tav stomp on her face as long as it made them happy. She will agree to every whim that strikes Tav as long as she gets to keep them close. She is the cuckold in the standard Tav-Halsin-Shadowheart poly romance where she urges Tav to sleep with him and then tell her about it. She has all the red flags of someone who could end up in a really bad abusive relationship and the type of bff that I would keep a very close eye on and try to protect from getting involved in a destructive relationship.
And how someone would come to the conclusion that she has a stronger attraction to Halsin based of three lines of banter out of some cheesy harlequin novel, compared to the hundreds of lines of dialogue where she throws herself at Tav seems a tad bit...insecure...
It's kinda big to ignore 'the Halsin stuff, I think they should do something with that wild bear, I've seeing others people post about him.
I low-key think Shadowheart "canonically" is a bit of a w**re. It would honestly fit her too well, she constantly says Tav that someone could take advantage of our kindness, trickery domain cleric, and the "bugged" most explicit flirting I've seeing in this game AFTER having sex with Tav (as far as I know, haven't done it myself).
It's kinda big to ignore 'the Halsin stuff, I think they should do something with that wild bear, I've seeing others people post about him.
I low-key think Shadowheart "canonically" is a bit of a w**re. It would honestly fit her too well, she constantly says Tav that someone could take advantage of our kindness, trickery domain cleric, and the "bugged" most explicit flirting I've seeing in this game AFTER having sex with Tav (as far as I know, haven't done it myself).
I think she manipulated us till the end.
What game have you been playing where that is the most explicit flirting you have encountered? I think even Withers comes off as more explicitly flirty to me than that at times.
But maybe that is just because as you may now know me as the happy $lut gamer by now, I've probably clicked all the naughty options
Look at OP post, something about a bear (again) wanting to have fun (if your lover wants, of course), water, and someone getting over her head about a buoyant bear.
It's kinda big to ignore 'the Halsin stuff, I think they should do something with that wild bear, I've seeing others people post about him.
I low-key think Shadowheart "canonically" is a bit of a w**re. It would honestly fit her too well, she constantly says Tav that someone could take advantage of our kindness, trickery domain cleric, and the "bugged" most explicit flirting I've seeing in this game AFTER having sex with Tav (as far as I know, haven't done it myself).
I think she manipulated us till the end.
lil bro needs to lay off the ntr doujins.....
Dude women fantasize as well, she meets Halsin before the romance really starts its not weird that she might have fantasized about a tall hunky literal sex icon character before devoting to tav( hell she has some dialogue thirsting about karlach when you first meet her as well) in the same way I as the player am tempted to try a tour of the hells with mizora or see what the female drow has to offer, the difference like in real life is if they act on it or feel more strongly about it than their thoughts about you.. As papercut ninja says, it's a bit insecure to throw the whole relationship away over it, as much as that post swim party banter pisses me off as well.
And yeah the w**re part, well she does mention lots of casual sharran brand socialization if you cheat on her with mizora which would have bothered me like morrigans mentioning her having sex with men casually in DOA did back in the day, but like her they are very much devoted to you when you romance them, hell shadowheart is even more so if she turns away from shar and she was mind wiped with only fragments of those memories so its not really the same considering she was very much manipulated and mind fucked most of her life.
Look at OP post, something about a bear (again) wanting to have fun (if your lover wants, of course), water, and someone getting over her head about a buoyant bear.
"Depends, are you buoyant? I may need a life preserver if I get in over my head."
That right there is THE most explicit flirting in the entire game?
Did you play some celibate background that changes all of the first two acts that I don't know about?
It's kinda big to ignore 'the Halsin stuff, I think they should do something with that wild bear, I've seeing others people post about him.
I low-key think Shadowheart "canonically" is a bit of a w**re. It would honestly fit her too well, she constantly says Tav that someone could take advantage of our kindness, trickery domain cleric, and the "bugged" most explicit flirting I've seeing in this game AFTER having sex with Tav (as far as I know, haven't done it myself).
I think she manipulated us till the end.
lil bro needs to lay off the ntr doujins.....
Dude women fantasize as well, she meets Halsin before the romance really starts its not weird that she might have fantasized about a tall hunky literal sex icon character before devoting to tav( hell she has some dialogue thirsting about karlach when you first meet her as well) in the same way I as the player am tempted to try a tour of the hells with mizora or see what the female drow has to offer, the difference like in real life is if they act on it or feel more strongly about it than their thoughts about you.. As papercut ninja says, it's a bit insecure to throw the whole relationship away over it, as much as that post swim party banter pisses me off as well.
And yeah the w**re part, well she does mention lots of casual sharran brand socialization if you cheat on her with mizora which would have bothered me like morrigans mentioning her having sex with men casually in DOA did back in the day, but like her they are very much devoted to you when you romance them, hell shadowheart is even more so if she turns away from shar and she was mind wiped with only fragments of those memories so its not really the same considering she was very much manipulated and mind fucked most of her life.
I never even implied women don't fantasize, I complain about the flirting because supposedly happens after she's devoted to Tav.
And I just pointed out, that it could be very posible "canonically" that she'll be that way (without Tav influence). Doesn't mean she is (that' why I said I think).
1. As much as I understand the dislike towards Shadowhearts behavior towards Halsin and trust me I hate it too (I mean I wrote the damn post), don't let it affect your real life. Criticize it, hate on it, let the developers know that you don't want that shit in your games but do remember that its still a game. (Your emotional well being should come first, becoming depressed because of someone's bad fan-fic should never happen.)
2. Now for the fun part. Some people seem to be missing the point it seems. All of these ideas of killing Halsin, keeping him in the camp etc. don't mean shit I'm sorry to say this but the writer made sure that her interest in him is a sure thing no matter what after you complete her romance. Yeah you might say 'I didn't see it, so it didn't happen' but you could also not recruit Wyll or not talk to him and then say 'He's a bard from Neverwinter that has no devil patron'.
Not seeing something doesn't change what was tacked on after her romance. (And it was tacked on. Now the question is whether it was malicious or just a victim of a rushed release/rewrites) She still flirts with him after establishing a relationship with the MC (explicit or not, doesn't matter how you want to call it she does it while in a relationship) and the now infamous brothel scene.
Indeed you need to initiate it but what people like to ignore isn't the fact that the player is the one that pushes it all into motion but Shadowhearts reaction to it. Every single companion is either against it or apprehensive while Shadoheart is the only one bursting with enthusiasm at the opportunity to sleep with Halsin. Rejecting that opportunity leads to her showing dislike towards it and if you do decide to take the plunge the whole scene revolves around the two having sex while the MC takes a step back.
So no, its not entirely up to the player whether Shadowheart is thinking of Halsin and fantasizing, what's up to the player is the choice whether you want to know about it or not. So again I ask a question, why would I or anyone else want to go through a romance that establishes one thing only for that thing to be thrown out of the window so that some writers fan-fic could be slapped on at the end.
A lot of people playing games and in real life tend to take issues with their partner obsessing over someone else/flirting with someone else, it has nothing to do with insecurity but everything with self respect.
-To the Red Queen I'm not using this to insult anyone, just pointing out the mentality of the writers and how that might have influenced the writing-
There are other examples but this one is a funny one.
ps. Take some time to enjoy yourself, don't get too upset and hope that they do rewrite it where a character you are romancing doesn't end up being more interested in someone else compared to the MC.
Every single companion is either against it or apprehensive while Shadoheart is the only one bursting with enthusiasm at the opportunity to sleep with Halsin.
I mean, who doesn't burst with enthusiasm at the opportunity to sleep with Halsin..ahem, no, ehh...back to the point, LOL. As a fan of Halsin, or rather the idea of him (his journey from what appears to be a strong steady mature man to horny "stick-my-thing-into-everyone-and-then-some"-guy is just wrong, but that's another discussion entirely), I just find that there's a bit of the same problem here as it is with Halsin himself. There has to be options and player choice here.
If you're in a monogamous relationship with a companion, in this case Shadowheart, it's just weird that the writers decide to make her disappointed when denied the option to sleep with someone else. That's just wrong. There are certainly instances where such a reaction might be valid and for some players it might fit, but that should sort of still be the players choice. And SH should for sure not thirst for Halsin AFTER having committed themselves to the player char.
It should be a rather easy fix, and one I hope Larian makes. And to be fair, like I said, Halsin himself deserves a proper fix too, writer did him dirty. So don't kill him just because SH can't keep her eyes away from those pecks, LOL, it's not his fault the writer was lost in his own fantasies when writing these scenes.
If you're in a monogamous relationship with a companion, in this case Shadowheart, it's just weird that the writers decide to make her disappointed when denied the option to sleep with someone else. That's just wrong. There are certainly instances where such a reaction might be valid and for some players it might fit, but that should sort of still be the players choice.
is it that weird really? You engage your partner in a sex fantasy involving some drow that make you excited. Then when it is suggested that she can have some fantasy fullfilled as well, you deny her. That's a bit selfish. It should work both ways, you get your dirty fantasies and she gets hers. Why is your enjoyment the only one that matters when you decide to bring this experimenting into your relationship? I can see why that gets you a disapproval, though she still goes through with denying herself and doing things your way anyway.
At the point where you take this relationship to a pair of sex workers and suggest sexual experimenting with other people, you are not proposing a monogamous relationship any more. Your actions are your responsibility, the rules of monogamy apply the same to you as to everyone else.
If you're in a monogamous relationship with a companion, in this case Shadowheart, it's just weird that the writers decide to make her disappointed when denied the option to sleep with someone else. That's just wrong. There are certainly instances where such a reaction might be valid and for some players it might fit, but that should sort of still be the players choice.
is it that weird really? You engage your partner in a sex fantasy involving some drow that make you excited. Then when it is suggested that she can have some fantasy fullfilled as well, you deny her. That's a bit selfish. It should work both ways, you get your dirty fantasies and she gets hers. Why is your enjoyment the only one that matters when you decide to bring this experimenting into your relationship? I can see why that gets you a disapproval, though she still goes through with denying herself and doing things your way anyway.
At the point where you take this relationship to a pair of sex workers and suggest sexual experimenting with other people, you are not proposing a monogamous relationship any more. Your actions are your responsibility, the rules of monogamy apply the same to you as to everyone else.
That's kind of my point when I say that it should be player choice. If player wants their character to engage in this drow encounter, then I feel like it should be okay for SH to also enjoy the moment, clearly. She's entitled to her fantasies and if PC is living out theirs, then SH should be able to do so too. What I'm saying is that if player character does NOT want this, and they ultimately say no to the drows because PC feels like they're in a committed relationship with SH and does not want to jeopardize this, then it just feels weird to have Shadowheart disapprove. PC did NOT engage partner in a sex fantasy, they rejected the idea of it because it didn't suit them, and partner gets upset. That's what I mean here.
Having one part in a relationship thirst for someone else and get disappointed that they're not allowed to fulfill their fantasy is grounds for breaking up in my opinion. Fantasies are fine, but not the disapproval.
She can approve of the drow meeting if player engages in it, but I don't think she should disapprove if player doesn't go through with the encounter. A disapproval on the other hand would be valid should the player engage in said encounter without Shadowheart.
- Person you are with is actively flirting with someone else while in a mono relationship - not broaching the topic of sharing/prostitutes.
- Person you are with shows interest in sleeping with someone else before even fully committing to the prostitutes offer and disagrees if you don't go with it.
- Person you are with reveals that while in a relationship they've been constantly salivating and dreaming about someone else.
- Person you are with that tells you they are interested in spicing up their relationship but as long as you are the one they are doing it with proceeds to focus on someone else.
- Person you are with proceeds to ignore you while mainly focusing on having sex with someone else. (the scene the player initiates doesn't end up being a fivesome but a sex scene between Halsin and Shadowheart where the drow twins and the MC are supporting characters)
- Person you are with that said they are not interested in sharing and always wanting more of you suddenly change their mind for someone else they've been fantasizing about.
Damn! I do wonder why people don't like it lol.
Like I said, most of these things (minus the banter - this is hardcoded and will happen as soon as you have both in your party) are up to the player to reveal. But that's it, reveal, not change. She might not sleep with Halsin unless you make it so but no one wants a romance where the partner is just waiting for the opportunity to jump into someone else's arms.
Seeing how both Halsin/Shadowheart share the same writer it is not surprising that he went overboard and overindulged in what he thought might be hot. (Bear memes, zoophilia, polyamory, cheating, Halsin being an overall sex pest after act 1 that hits on everything 'Can I join?' etc. take your pick)
Well my good people of the internet, I think we're beating a dead horse here (I'm not saying that you all have to stop sharing your opinions, please don't misinterpreted my comment). I'm personally out of this discussion, I think we've all made our point clear.
I also think that this problem (if it's a problem at all) should be looked by Larian's team (if they're willing to do it, they don't owe us nothing, we already have the game, though it gives them good press to do it.. ) and if they consider that any of what has been discussed here would improved the game, act upon it.
If anyone got offended by any of my comments, apologies.
When I got a bit of time. I'll play the game again (I didn't stopped playing only because of SH & Halsin, honestly I feel I was playing to much. Maybe that was my excuse to take a break?), however, regardless what we might think or even get to feel to a character, they're just a blender models and wall of codes behind it all.
Have a great day y'all.
PS: Sorry for my bad English, I'm sure there's typos in every comment I made.
That's kind of my point when I say that it should be player choice. If player wants their character to engage in this drow encounter, then I feel like it should be okay for SH to also enjoy the moment, clearly. She's entitled to her fantasies and if PC is living out theirs, then SH should be able to do so too. What I'm saying is that if player character does NOT want this, and they ultimately say no to the drows because PC feels like they're in a committed relationship with SH and does not want to jeopardize this, then it just feels weird to have Shadowheart disapprove. PC did NOT engage partner in a sex fantasy, they rejected the idea of it because it didn't suit them, and partner gets upset. That's what I mean here.
Having one part in a relationship thirst for someone else and get disappointed that they're not allowed to fulfill their fantasy is grounds for breaking up in my opinion. Fantasies are fine, but not the disapproval.
She can approve of the drow meeting if player engages in it, but I don't think she should disapprove if player doesn't go through with the encounter. A disapproval on the other hand would be valid should the player engage in said encounter without Shadowheart.
Let's not re-write how this play out. The dialogue tree brings you to the proposal from the drow to have sex between both of them and you and your partner. At this point you have the clear option to go with "yes" or "no". Shadowheart does not express any interest to go along with this until you actively press "yes" to this proposal, at which point YOU have made the decision to move your relationship away from a monogamous relationship. Only after you have made this decision about your relationship status does horndog Halsin inject himself and the disapproval reactions occur. There are really no confusing flags or messages in this whole scenario, you have made the conscious decision to take your relationship with Shadowheart towards sexually experimenting with others. Her enthusiasm or preferences as to who she wants to include in these sexual games are inconsequential at this point, this is what you wanted!
So based on what you say, I think we agree on this one. What sort of relationship you want with Shadowheart is very much up to the player and there is no scenario where this just happens out of the blue or by accident.
Well my good people of the internet, I think we're beating a dead horse here (I'm not saying that you all have to stop sharing your opinions, please don't misinterpreted my comment). I'm personally out of this discussion, I think we've all made our point clear.
I also think that this problem (if it's a problem at all) should be looked by Larian's team (if they're willing to do it, they don't owe us nothing, we already have the game, though it gives them good press to do it.. ) and if they consider that any of what has been discussed here would improved the game, act upon it.
If anyone got offended by any of my comments, apologies.
When I got a bit of time. I'll play the game again (I didn't stopped playing only because of SH & Halsin, honestly I feel I was playing to much. Maybe that was my excuse to take a break?), however, regardless what we might think or even get to feel to a character, they're just a blender models and wall of codes behind it all.
Have a great day y'all.
PS: Sorry for my bad English, I'm sure there's typos in every comment I made.
No offense taken here. If my arguing was a bit brash at times I did not mean to take you down or anything. I sincerely think you should continue with your save and experience this story, because there are so many really good moments that you will remember. Even if one part ticks you off, don't let that one thing sour your whole experience, it will fade away and you will remember and cherish the good parts.
Every single companion is either against it or apprehensive while Shadoheart is the only one bursting with enthusiasm at the opportunity to sleep with Halsin.
I mean, who doesn't burst with enthusiasm at the opportunity to sleep with Halsin..ahem, no, ehh...back to the point, LOL. As a fan of Halsin, or rather the idea of him (his journey from what appears to be a strong steady mature man to horny "stick-my-thing-into-everyone-and-then-some"-guy is just wrong, but that's another discussion entirely), I just find that there's a bit of the same problem here as it is with Halsin himself. There has to be options and player choice here.
If you're in a monogamous relationship with a companion, in this case Shadowheart, it's just weird that the writers decide to make her disappointed when denied the option to sleep with someone else. That's just wrong. There are certainly instances where such a reaction might be valid and for some players it might fit, but that should sort of still be the players choice. And SH should for sure not thirst for Halsin AFTER having committed themselves to the player char.
It should be a rather easy fix, and one I hope Larian makes. And to be fair, like I said, Halsin himself deserves a proper fix too, writer did him dirty. So don't kill him just because SH can't keep her eyes away from those pecks, LOL, it's not his fault the writer was lost in his own fantasies when writing these scenes.
All they need to do is remove the disapproval(actually after reding papers comments this might be fine) and that one party banter, maybe touch up the dialogue in the actual 5some as well but, that's not something im interested in so maybe its fine with people that are
Well my good people of the internet, I think we're beating a dead horse here (I'm not saying that you all have to stop sharing your opinions, please don't misinterpreted my comment). I'm personally out of this discussion, I think we've all made our point clear.
I also think that this problem (if it's a problem at all) should be looked by Larian's team (if they're willing to do it, they don't owe us nothing, we already have the game, though it gives them good press to do it.. ) and if they consider that any of what has been discussed here would improved the game, act upon it.
If anyone got offended by any of my comments, apologies.
When I got a bit of time. I'll play the game again (I didn't stopped playing only because of SH & Halsin, honestly I feel I was playing to much. Maybe that was my excuse to take a break?), however, regardless what we might think or even get to feel to a character, they're just a blender models and wall of codes behind it all.
Have a great day y'all.
PS: Sorry for my bad English, I'm sure there's typos in every comment I made.
No offense taken here. If my arguing was a bit brash at times I did not mean to take you down or anything. I sincerely think you should continue with your save and experience this story, because there are so many really good moments that you will remember. Even if one part ticks you off, don't let that one thing sour your whole experience, it will fade away and you will remember and cherish the good parts.
That saved file is in the Shadow Realm by now.
I think all these situations could've been easily solved by making relationships between Tav and [insert Companion's name here] reacts more to Tav's decisions. We're the players and even if it sound selfish, we should be able to influence to whatever story we wanted to play on this ROLEPLAY game.
We want to be loyal? It doesn't matter if I go the the brothel and even asked for sex (because this is a game, and sometimes we just want see what will happen), if by that point we haven't flirted or show any type of unloyal behavior through the game, our partner should feel offended (if their monogamous) or surprised (if they're into polygamy). Not to have a character that showed so much romantic and honestly, cliché moments; salivate themselves to other companion, unless said companion is also your lover (if doesn't mather if that lover is big old daddy Halsin, or underrated but without a doubt, sex symbol Withers).
Now if we're an ass*ole through the game, cheat on our partner and are overall a bad person, punished my Tav and turned him into a voyeur.
I also think they should make it as if you're on a serious relationship with a companion, they shouldn't be flirting, and being seductive with anyone.
All of this should have been easier without polygamy, honestly. But I guess that sex and taboos sell. And maybe there's people that enjoy that part of the game (but for what I've read, here and elsewhere, not lot of people like it).
It feels like there are 2 Shadowheart personalities when it comes to interactions with party members from early access and new one added in full-release. Such inconsistency is a sign of poor writing or lack of time to consider everything. I would be nice to if it gets addressed by Larian but I don't think it will happen.
You did an excellent job summing up what many of us think. This is exactly the kind of things that ruins one's experience. You are developing a character and a story alongside, if once of the thing you are building up sucks, it's totally okay to feel that everything doesn't seem right, the experience is ruined or at least incomplete. No matter what decision you make, they basically bottleneck everything into two particular things, both equally fucked up, if that's not what you wanted: SH flirting with Halsing and SH disapproving if you reject him.)
I mean, they should have left different options and paths depending on your decisions, like with many other things within the game. But this feels straight up manipulated. Okay writer/develop, you decided to put your little fetish in the game, or even yourself in it, but that doesn't mean you should force those decisions and trigger action that doesn't fit with the playthrough one is following.
I'm not saying they should delete this, I'm saying the companions should behave (like they already do in other circumstances) according to the players decisions, paths, actions, etc. If they are reaction and evolving in a certain way, well be consistent, don't try to fit something where it doesn't fit. If someone is ok for whatever reason with this (maybe it is a fantasy of their, maybe they just want to have fun, they are role-playing as a promiscuous boy/girl...) it's okay, it's alright, but that doesn't mean everyone should do the same.
And the problem isn't really solve by ignoring those things, because they are already there, underneath. Like I said in another treat, it's like having your drunk friend over and hiding the beers, he ain't getting buzzed, but that doesn't mean he won't get drunk as soon as he sees there is beer in the house. He won't suddenly be sober for the rest of his life or learn to control himself just by hiding the alcohol.
Really, really hope they fix this thing along with the other companion's problems (coff coff Karlach). We have been supporting a lot this game, I know they can't fix all from one day to another, but I really for them to fix all this in the future.
I am going to attempt a helpful and considerate response for everyone involved in this discussion. If it seems inconsistent with things I have written earlier, well thoughts and perceptions develop over time so there are aspects where my standpoints can shift.
First of all to address the emotional aspect involved which cannot be disregarded. If you develop an emotional attachment to the character Shadowheart in the game, the attachment is going to carry over to your real emotions and you can't help but react to things that you experience. To validate everyone's feelings involved, Jennifer English, the VA of Shadowheart expresses these things on a deep emotional level in an interview here Go to the timestamp for "emotional scene" and a word of caution that this can hit too close to home for some.
Now with validation of feelings and emotions involved, let's also make it clear that feelings are not facts! This doesn't mean that I dismiss your feelings for anything but real, just that they aren't the same as facts.
The fact is that if you are playing a monogamous romantic storyline with Shadowheart, that scene is not intended for you. That is intended for a different audience. The companions are dynamic NPC's, which means that there are different versions of Shadowheart for different audiences. The player has a degree of control over which version of the dynamic NPC they want so that the story can cater to different audiences. In comparison to the Kagha storyline that OP mentions a few times, Kagha is not a dynamic NPC, all audiences get the same Kagha.
Different versions of Shadowheart for different audiences does not necessarily need to be consistent with one another, but of course, if some key parts of her character background is suddenly completely disregarded it becomes jarring and the writing that has been done to adapt the character to the audience isn't very good.
Those who follow a classic romantic storyline between two people involving Tav and Shadowheart get a very consistent experience, with the exception of the banter between Shadowheart and Halsin, which I must honestly believe is a script error that shouldn't be there unless you are pursuing the polyromance arc, it makes no sense otherwise. I know I played that down in my earlier responses based on my personal feelings about the whole thing, but again feelings aren't facts, so how I personally feel doesn't matter. It carries gravity no matter how I feel about it.
For my experience playing through the game with a romance arc that involved only Tav and Shadowheart where Halsin wasn't even around in act 3, the delivery was very consistent and satisfying. And that's my greatest advice for everyone to take away from here, the other versions of Shadowheart that aren't intended for you doesn't matter! It is the audience that want the Shadowheart that indulges in casual sex together with Tav and others that gets the inconsistent experience, but I doubt that audience cares that deeply about consistency because they just wanted to feel some stirring in their pants. The existence of an inconsistent Shadowheart for a different audience should be their problem, don't make it into yours.
I am going to attempt a helpful and considerate response for everyone involved in this discussion. If it seems inconsistent with things I have written earlier, well thoughts and perceptions develop over time so there are aspects where my standpoints can shift.
First of all to address the emotional aspect involved which cannot be disregarded. If you develop an emotional attachment to the character Shadowheart in the game, the attachment is going to carry over to your real emotions and you can't help but react to things that you experience. To validate everyone's feelings involved, Jennifer English, the VA of Shadowheart expresses these things on a deep emotional level in an interview here Go to the timestamp for "emotional scene" and a word of caution that this can hit too close to home for some.
Now with validation of feelings and emotions involved, let's also make it clear that feelings are not facts! This doesn't mean that I dismiss your feelings for anything but real, just that they aren't the same as facts.
The fact is that if you are playing a monogamous romantic storyline with Shadowheart, that scene is not intended for you. That is intended for a different audience. The companions are dynamic NPC's, which means that there are different versions of Shadowheart for different audiences. The player has a degree of control over which version of the dynamic NPC they want so that the story can cater to different audiences. In comparison to the Kagha storyline that OP mentions a few times, Kagha is not a dynamic NPC, all audiences get the same Kagha.
Different versions of Shadowheart for different audiences does not necessarily need to be consistent with one another, but of course, if some key parts of her character background is suddenly completely disregarded it becomes jarring and the writing that has been done to adapt the character to the audience isn't very good.
Those who follow a classic romantic storyline between two people involving Tav and Shadowheart get a very consistent experience, with the exception of the banter between Shadowheart and Halsin, which I must honestly believe is a script error that shouldn't be there unless you are pursuing the polyromance arc, it makes no sense otherwise. I know I played that down in my earlier responses based on my personal feelings about the whole thing, but again feelings aren't facts, so how I personally feel doesn't matter. It carries gravity no matter how I feel about it.
For my experience playing through the game with a romance arc that involved only Tav and Shadowheart where Halsin wasn't even around in act 3, the delivery was very consistent and satisfying. And that's my greatest advice for everyone to take away from here, the other versions of Shadowheart that aren't intended for you doesn't matter! It is the audience that want the Shadowheart that indulges in casual sex together with Tav and others that gets the inconsistent experience, but I doubt that audience cares that deeply about consistency because they just wanted to feel some stirring in their pants. The existence of an inconsistent Shadowheart for a different audience should be their problem, don't make it into yours.
Agreed, there's different versions of SH (and probably also of others characters) and you're probably right that is not intended to monogamous audience. But what if you happen to stumble upon that scene as a monogamous player? you would, at the very least, think that it doesn't make sense with her character.
You're basically telling us to turn a blind eye, and I think developers shouldn't allow monogamous player to find that scene. If they intended to do poly/exotic relationships, they should have a least have some kind of code/safeguard that preverts monogamous player to got even the chance to find that scene, and also with the flirting, if certain conditions are met, i.e. monogamous, high approval level, romantic scenes unlocked, characters (not just SH) should stop flirting between themselves.
I think you're seeing her 'heart' and we're seeing her 'shadows'. And she got lots of shadows, try a playthrough and don't recruit right away, you will find her a couple of times through act 1, look the way she treats Tav (specially at the grove). She's written in a way that if you're not feeling sympathetic with her (simping her), she's stray mean/annoying to Tav, and that can be seeing as a way of manipulation.
But that's just my opinion, and might be even wrong...
Agreed, there's different versions of SH (and probably also of others characters) and you're probably right that is not intended to monogamous audience. But what if you happen to stumble upon that scene as a monogamous player? you would, at the very least, think that it doesn't make sense with her character.
Yes, but if you disregard the emotional investment, this isn't any different from any other choice and consequence you encounter in the game. If you don't like it, or regret it, you just re-load and pick a different choice. This is why I needed to acknowledge that emotional attachment will trigger feelings, which you can't just re-load. So my advice is to remind yourself that this isn't the same version of Shadowheart as the one you are attached to (and don't get too attached obviously, she is not real and it's just a game!).
Originally Posted by NeedaUserName
You're basically telling us to turn a blind eye, and I think developers shouldn't allow monogamous player to find that scene. If they intended to do poly/exotic relationships, they should have a least have some kind of code/safeguard that preverts monogamous player to got even the chance to find that scene, and also with the flirting, if certain conditions are met, i.e. monogamous, high approval level, romantic scenes unlocked, characters (not just SH) should stop flirting between themselves.
I think it is set up to not just happen because you stumble upon it. I am no expert on every possible route to the Sharess Caress interaction, but as it was for me the story steered me there long before the completion of the Shadowheart romance (when she will still decline to any suggestion involving the drow sex workers). It was also very obvious what this interaction was about. So later in the story, once you have completed Shadowheart romance you would need to make the conscious decision to return to Sharess Caress (which has no other quests tied to it at this point) and engage this conversation again to trigger that scene. I mean don't play the fool, you know what you are doing at this point. But there may be other paths or possibilities that lead to this, it's a very open game, so I am not going to say anything for sure.
Originally Posted by NeedaUserName
I think you're seeing her 'heart' and we're seeing her 'shadows'. And she got lots of shadows, try a playthrough and don't recruit right away, you will find her a couple of times through act 1, look the way she treats Tav (specially at the grove). She's written in a way that if you're not feeling sympathetic with her (simping her), she's stray mean/annoying to Tav.
But that's just my opinion, and might be even wrong...
You are not wrong. In fact, even if you recruit her and treat her nicely, psycho-Shadowheart will eventually appear, planning to kill Lae'zel in cold blood and blame it on the tadpole. And she will go through with it unless you talk her out of it.
But she's fixable, which is the appeal of her story, the character development and growth.
Yes, but if you disregard the emotional investment, this isn't any different from any other choice and consequence you encounter in the game. If you don't like it, or regret it, you just re-load and pick a different choice. This is why I needed to acknowledge that emotional attachment will trigger feelings, which you can't just re-load. So my advice is to remind yourself that this isn't the same version of Shadowheart as the one you are attached to (and don't get too attached obviously, she is not real and it's just a game!).
In my case in particular I never got 'emotional attached' to her. It simply broke my roleplay experience (I wasn't even that far into her romance). And I think the 'solution' would be to make her romance (and any other character) in a way that behaves in the player's choosen relationship type. Not to turn a blind eye, but whatever. As you said, companions should be dynamic, and that is not dynamic at all.
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I think it is set up to not just happen because you stumble upon it. I am no expert on every possible route to the Sharess Caress interaction, but as it was for me the story steered me there long before the completion of the Shadowheart romance (when she will still decline to any suggestion involving the drow sex workers). It was also very obvious what this interaction was about. So later in the story, once you have completed Shadowheart romance you would need to make the conscious decision to return to Sharess Caress (which has no other quests tied to it at this point) and engage this conversation again to trigger that scene. I mean don't play the fool, you know what you are doing at this point. But there may be other paths or possibilities that lead to this, it's a very open game, so I am not going to say anything for sure
You're talking from the perspective of someone that knows that interaction, what if I didn't know about it and for whatever reason got to that area of the game with all the conditions met for that to happen?
What about any other possible interactions like this one that hasn't been discovered (if there's any)?
It's simple. I think they should have implemented so kind of 'monogamous-player path' or something.
Thought to be fair, as I said in a previous post. I've never got that interaction myself, so I don't know the conditions.
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You are not wrong. In fact, even if you recruit her and treat her nicely, psycho-Shadowheart will eventually appear, planning to kill Lae'zel in cold blood and blame it on the tadpole. And she will go through with it unless you talk her out of it.
But she's fixable, which is the appeal of her story, the character development and growth.
And that may be why posts like this one exist. With her grow and development, she shouldn't be willingly accepting that interaction, unless that Tav has clearly proof to be a poly.
In my case in particular I never got 'emotional attached' to her. It simply broke my roleplay experience (I wasn't even that far into her romance). And I think the 'solution' would be to make her romance (and any other character) in a way that behaves in the player's choosen relationship type. Not to turn a blind eye, but whatever. As you said, companions should be dynamic, and that is not dynamic at all.
You're talking from the perspective of someone that knows that interaction, what if I didn't know about it and for whatever reason got to that area of the game with all the conditions met for that to happen?
What about any other possible interactions like this one that hasn't been discovered (if there's any)?
It's simple. I think they should have implemented so kind of 'monogamous-player path' or something.
Thought to be fair, as I said in a previous post. I've never got that interaction myself, so I don't know the conditions.
And that may be why posts like this one exist. With her grow and development, she shouldn't be willingly accepting that interaction, unless that Tav has clearly proof to be a poly.
Yeah, I don't have very extensive knowledge about the paths and conversations in this scenario. I have boundaries around anything relating to traficking that I can't roleplay such scenarios. I just know how it was in my playthrough where it was very obvious from the start what this was about, for which I was grateful, so I could quickly decline and move on. Anything else is just what I gathered from what people have posted.
Larian have made a big deal about how there are a lot of consent checks in the sex scenes so you can stop what is going on. I think that checks out for the scenes I have played so far, but I would have to refer to someone else for this particular scene.
1. This is a video game, no matter how real it feels, we have to understand SH (or any other character) won't pop out of the monitor, so we can have some kind of Blade Runner 2049 experience. But that doesn't mean we can't fully involve ourselves into the story and have the best roll-play experience ever.
2. This (among other related topics) can either go in one of 2 directions: Larian could listen to the community and allow this dynamic we want; or they could pretend none of this is happening and everything (at least for this matter) remains the same.
So, with that in mind, let's continue...
There should be options for both perspectives (poly and mono). It is not like we are demanding something that hasn't been established by the game (both things are possible and allowed: being poly or mono), but we are arguing about how the game bottlenecks or narrows at some points, basically forcing you to take just one.
Let's gather the evidences we have so far:
1. SH was abused during her Shar life, she was "forced" to do things in the name of Shar. Like a brainwashed religious person. So, if she had casual non-sentimental carnal relations with other Shar followers, it was for the name of Shar, not by willing. She "didn't care" since it was Shar willing.
2. Halsin is a terrible-written character, who's primary purpose is being a forced sexual joke. Always harrasing the MC. You can deny everyone else, but him. There is always the option for an open sexual-relation with him. You can deny everyone joining your party, but him... again. And literally most of the things he adds to the game are things that one can figure out without him.
3. SH will reject being a spare-lover with any other companion but Halsin (suspicious). Why can't she allow someone else? Or be consistent and reject everyone? It's like saying, "I don't want anything casual and forced anymore, I want you full... but ummm let's give Halsin a chance, so it would be easier to approach that wild bear later"
4. She goes with all the "you and only you" BS, and how she found herself with you by her side... but after finishing her storyline there is that banter where she is LITERALLY flirting with Halsin like WTF? Can't the game tell I didn't sleep with anyone else? It just breaks the roll-play experience one is following
5. It is true that going to the twins (and knowing the context) you shouldn't expect more of her if you decide to sleep with them (even Halsin). But why isn't there a voice line to reject the idea if you are following a mono path?
It is more than obvious that someone decide to put his little fetish in the game and wrap it round HS and Halsin. And IDK maybe this person dreams with people watching him, so we are "watching him" through Halsin. Disgusting...
I really like this game, honestly, it drags you to experience the full adventure (in all senses), but when you are building something, following certain paths and then something like this happens is just... it feels odd, like something's missing.
So, what options we have? Kill Halsin? Let the goblins kill him? Never talk you him? Let the shadow-lands with the curse?
That just means narrowing the game more, having less options...
So, we ignore all that, we don't talk and reject those twins? We get rid of Halsin right after SH learns to swim? Yeah, it could work, but we are just pretending. The moment we include Halsin that banter will pop-out. The moment we talk to the twins we know the only answer SH give no matter how mono the relation was. Worst if Halsin is included, like okay we are open to snacks but only if we both feel comfortable, oh look! Halsin wants to join... how dare you say no? DISAPPROVE! Like apparently if you go poly you are forced to like the bear, otherwise people dislike you.
And even worst, okay you decide to take Halsin, once into the room you are just a snack, Halsin is the real king in the house. And suddenly SH reveals she's been dreaming about him (and was lively), even if she literally spent the last night with you, and until that moment you've been playing mono. Consistency people, like please.
Well... finally, how can Larian fix all this? I won't go deep (not like Halsin, jk jk) But here are some ideas, simple ideas (is not a big topic that requires hours and days of thinking):
1. Fully allow mono and poly, and respect the players decisions. Is a roll-play game, the system should react according to the player's decisions, not the system deliberately telling the player what they have to choose.
2. You went mono? You rejected Halsin n-times before the end of HS arc? Furthermore, you didn't cheat with her? Then don't trigger the dam banter
3. Allow people to reject Halsin from joining your party (if he doesn't add anything for you), we don't need to ignore him or kill him, just let us say NO
4. Allow people to be poly with HS and different companions, not only Halsin (unless you actually want to respect her story, then don't allow this option with any companion including Halsin)
5. If you went full mono and for whatever reason decided to talk with the twins, show SH disapproval by dialog or a simple "SH disapproves" message... so you are respecting what the player built and the consequences of being horny all of a sudden
6. If you decide to go poly (and according to point 4), is a mutual agreement, so... if you get to the twins and (unless your spare-lover is Halsin) don't force me to accept his offer and don't show SH disapproval. You want, I don't, I only want the twins (you want them too), but I don't need Halsin, so (game) respect that.
7. A similar scenario (point 6), but now you are "dating" Halsin, well... NOW show the disapproval. You are eating that meat, but SH can't? Come on dude...
8. Now let's say you are poly but also a son of a gun and decide to cheat on SH (you didn't ask her). First, don't say that "you and only you BS". Second now show that banter. Third, show her excitement in the brothel when Halsin decides to join, and of course show the disapproval if you refuse. You can be a bitch, but she can't? Again, come on dude...
9. And finally (but probably not last), you were mono, but then you cheat then repeat the point 8.
There...of course there could be more scenarios, but I think these 9 points sums almost everything. So you respect different paths, different decisions, everyone is happy. If someone gets to a scenario they didn't like, well, that's the player's fault. Don't want SH to be a whore? Then why are you behaving like one (acting like a second Halsin).
So I really hope they fix all this, along with other companions problems. I am a developer my self. We once changed a client system in the company I work for, we thought it would be for the best, but no... a lot of clients started to sent bad reviews and complains, they wanted the old system back, but there were those who wanted the new system to stay... what did we do? Simple, we deployed both options, and everyone's happy in that regard...
I think we should do as Madguise said and put a ticket for Larian about this topic (since more and more people keep complaining) and hope for the best.
Anyway, thanks for reading, and sorry for my poor lexicon.
I agree with majority of points that has been discussed here. This particular dialog in that particular context doesn't make sense and contradicts her romance arc development. I hope Larian will look into this problem eventually.
In regards of leaving feedback, Larian has a whole thread for it on their Discord server too, you can post your suggestions there as well.
The entire dialogue makes even less sense if you decline Halsin beforehand. I don't play with him in the party because I can't stand his character but tested it out. He still jokes about joining in on the next 'swimming session' toward Shadowheart even if you declined him. And wants to join in on the orgy regardless of you declining him beforehand. And Shadowheart is the one that initiates it if you had the beach scene before talking to the twins.
Couldn't think of a more blatant self insert by the writer. Which is a shame, because he wrote Shadowheart quite well. Even if there's a severe lack of commitment to the relationship as shown by the mediocre epilogue despite multiple heart to heart moments. Now we know why.
The entire dialogue makes even less sense if you decline Halsin beforehand. I don't play with him in the party because I can't stand his character but tested it out. He still jokes about joining in on the next 'swimming session' toward Shadowheart even if you declined him. And wants to join in on the orgy regardless of you declining him beforehand. And Shadowheart is the one that initiates it if you had the beach scene before talking to the twins.
Couldn't think of a more blatant self insert by the writer. Which is a shame, because he wrote Shadowheart quite well. Even if there's a severe lack of commitment to the relationship as shown by the mediocre epilogue despite multiple heart to heart moments. Now we know why.
Well, with that information revealed I am just going to concede and bow out of any further discussion. Halsin is toxic af!
I am a sex-positive person with no issues with what goes down between consenting adults, but I will be keeping Halsin firmly stashed away out of sight and out of mind after he has done his part for the plot in any playthrough. He doesn't do anything for me anyway, I prefer cute boys!
It's actually really bad if you read it all in context. I'll quote the entire conversation from declining Halsin to the Drow scene. Will put it in spoiler tags because it'll be quite some text.
Declining Halsin during long rest:
Halsin: I never quite realised how burdened I was, until I met you. The threat of the shadow curse, the politics of the grove... Halsin: ...I forgot who I was, but you lifted the fog. Thank you. Tav: So the fog's lifted - what have you discovered? Halsin: You. I discovered you. I have lived a very long time. I have taken many lovers. My heart does not stir lightly. But it does now. Tav: What are you saying exactly? Halsin: I want more than to fight at your side, or sit around the campfire with you. I want to lay with you under the stars and feel your skin against mine. Halsin: I think you feel the same way - why else would you have been so concerned about whether I had a lover before? Halsin: But tell me I'm wrong, and the matter can rest. I do not wish to sour our friendship, but I have to know if it can be something more. Tav: If I wanted to rut with half a tonne of dumb muscle, I'd seduce a deep rothé. Halsin: A simple 'no' would have sufficed. I will trouble you with the matter no more.
OR
Tav: I'm afraid I just don't see you that way. Halsin: I understand, and I still cherish our relationship. Halsin: Still... I could not have forgiven myself had I not taken the plunge. Better to have tried and failed.
OR
Tav: I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested - but I'm already in a relationship. Halsin: You have bonded with Shadowheart, body and soul. Her scent lingers on your skin. If there is to be anything between us, it must be with her consent. And perhaps some day, her participation. Tav: I'm sorry - I'm in a relationship. I don't want to jeopardise it. Halsin: I understand, and I still cherish our relationship. Halsin: Still... I could not have forgiven myself had I not taken the plunge. Better to have tried and failed.
A fair exchange I suppose. You can decline him with any of the options, it doesn't matter how you do it, but the second option is the most logical and the third way seemed like the one where it's most clear that you want a mono relationship even if you're forced to admit interest for some reason (why is the second reply regarding the relationship not instead of the first?).
Proceed to the next night where I got the chat with Shadowheart about her still feeling the Shadowfell followed up by the beach scene. I then kick out a companion to add level 1 Halsin to the party.
Few steps into Wyrm's Crossing and the following exchange happens straight away.
Halsin: I heard you learnt how to swim, Shadowheart - well done. Halsin: You know, if you and your love ever wish to enjoy the waters with me, I could attempt a kelpie... or even a porpoise. Shadowheart: Depends, are you buoyant? I may need a life preserver if I get in over my head.
So he straight up hits on Shadowheart after you decline him, knowing full well you want no part in it based on previous exchange. Good writing!
Then you get to the Drow twins:
Sorn Orlith: A new face! Looking for another chapter of dirty lore for your biography? Nym Orlith: You have but to ask, and we can grant you a moment of pleasure. Nym Orlith: Don't be shy. Halsin: An intriguing pair. Takes me back to my youth... Tav: How did you end up here? Sorn Orlith: I used to work as a courtesan back home, and my sister as an artisanal masseuse, but men are treated like dogs by the Underdark's matriarchs, so we fled. Nym Orlith: We found surfacers crave the body of a Drow like a drug. Life is easy in our line of work. Tav: Don't you want a change? Nym Orlith: Perhaps once we have saved more gold another adventure will begin. We've had busier days, but life is comfortable here with Mamzell. Tav: I'm glad you've found a place you feel safe. Sorn Orlith: I'd have to restrain myself far more than any play-bindings do if I worked in another field. This is a place where I can be myself boundlessly. Sorn Orlith: There are so many who come to me speaking of a fixation that no one else has ever been able to shaer with them... and never will again. Sorn Orlith: A once in-a-lifetime moment of passion. Every day. What could be better? Don't you want to try it? Sorn Orlith: Trust me, you don't want to miss my signature Menzoberranzan Love Trick. Nym Orlith: And is that your partner with you? What a gorgeous couple... perhaps we could come to an agreement. Tav: Agreement? What kind of agreement? Nym Orlith: We want both of you, silly! At the same time. Shadowheart: There's an idea. If you're comfortable sharing... so am I. Tav: Great, let's do it. Halsin: Perhaps you'd care for a little extra company... Shadowheart: I won't pretend the thought hasn't crossed my mind once or twice... or more than that. Tav: No, Halsin! Tame yourself! Halsin: As you wish. I'm sure I can find berth elsewhere...
Proceed by having both of them disapprove. It's actually quite unnerving seeing it in full context. You make no push toward it, just merely asking questions to the Drows, Shadowheart suddenly pops up showing interest (why???), which can make you feel pressured into accepting. Then Halsin pops up despite your wishes and when you decline they're both unhappy with it? It's 100% written in a way that implies that Shadowheart has a thing for Halsin regardless of how Tav (you) roleplay about it, and shows Halsin as a super pushy sex addict that doesn't take no for an answer and will actively try ruin your relationship.
I then kick out a companion to add level 1 Halsin to the party.
Few steps into Wyrm's Crossing and the following exchange happens straight away.
Now to be fair, this is a problem every character have when you add them to your party later on. They will have conversations between them, and talk to you like if you had history with them. I recruited SH in my current playthrough (she won't last much tho, Lae'zel will fight to death with her) at the goblin camp (It didn't make sense to my Tav not to do it after what happens in that cinematic) and proceeded to exhaust her dialogue, and in one of her answers she told my Tav something like "we've been through a lot, what you want to know"; when she literally didn't have 5 minutes on my team. I would like they eventually look at that too.
And what I find annoying is that they don't put some kind of safeguard to prevent those interactions (when you're not poly). Especially if such interactions can literally destroy/change how you view a character (It's like reading a long book, and in the last chapter, the character do the opposite to what they were doing on previous chapters). And the same can be said about the flirting.
I think that the problem isn't SH but Halsin, for what I know, people on EA wanted to have a romance with him and somehow they made him the way he is rn. I dislike the way that, of all characters, he seems to be the one that does what he wants and not what your Tav wants. I mean, Lae'zel (that is a Gith), you can convince her to consume tadpoles. Lae'zel! the character that hates mind flayer the most, and Halsin (from what I've read) is a lot lest flexible in how you can influence him.
And I found funny how even people like me (that play in a 2 people team), can *potentially* find that scene. Because Halsin joins my camp without me consenting, now if he wouldn't interfere in any way, shape or form, like Withers, it wouldn't mind. But do you honestly think if they force me a character, I won't eventually use it? Meaning that even when I was intentionally avoiding teammates, my Tav (possibly) could get that drow interaction. I don't what else to say regarding this. lol.
What Michieltjuhh said, basically sums what Halsin is all about.
Halsin adds nothing besides saving Thaniel (IDK if you can save him by another means). Everything else he says you can figure out yourselves. Anyway... If you deny his proposal of becoming a lover, apparently he game will keep pushing you (forcing you) to love him.
1. He gets in your camp even if you don't want to
2. If you reject him, that means you don't like him... no matter if you are taking a mono or poly path... If you are gay, it doesn't mean that you like every man on the planet. Then, only because I want to go poly in the game, that doesn't imply I want Halsin to be my second lover.
3. If you already reject him, why would he stick his nose and ask for a fivesome... No Halsin, no is no... I don't like you I want the twins and SH, not you... (and then the disapproval, LMAO)
4. If I'm going mono, why showing that nasty banter after the swimming scene? Even more, if I'm just talking to the twins, why would she say "There's an idea. If you're comfortable sharing... so am I"? What happens to all the "you and only you"? Before the player's response
Tons of inconsistencies... Is the game reacting to the player's choices, or the game forcing you to choose a certain path for the shake of someone's dirty fetish?
Are you telling me to go poly even if I don't want to? Specifically with Halsin? Are you saying I need to do the fivesome if I don't want a disapproval? Wow thanks for respecting my choices and narrowing my options.
Then, what? I need to kill him? Or her? Should I go the dark path? I need SH to kill the nightsong? I need to leave Halsin in the camp even if I like him as companion (for the fights I mean)? Oh wow, In other words: you need to react according to the game, because all roads lead to Rome. Let's throw your role play to the trashcan.
My way to have him never annoy me. Do Thaniel's quest WITHOUT having him in the party, done, saved the boy good Act 2 ending. And yes, without Halsin, no saving the kid. Then Ignore his existence, never even talk to him, imagine him just as what he really is, a forced NPC you must have in camp to have a certain quest done. I did it, and boom, all my problems were solved. Still annoys me having to avoid any npc, but honestly, I didn't miss a thing not interacting with the unpleasant horny weirdo dude.
Also, while in the poly thing, isn't that unfair that they gave (forced) a dude option, but didn't have a female option for those who want poly but not a man?
My way to have him never annoy me. Do Thaniel's quest WITHOUT having him in the party, done, saved the boy good Act 2 ending. And yes, without Halsin, no saving the kid. Then Ignore his existence, never even talk to him, imagine him just as what he really is, a forced NPC you must have in camp to have a certain quest done. I did it, and boom, all my problems were solved. Still annoys me having to avoid any npc, but honestly, I didn't miss a thing not interacting with the unpleasant horny weirdo dude.
That's the way I'm playing it (the Lift the Curse quest is done apart from killing Thorm). I can't stand Halsin from the moment he opens his mouth in the goblin cells. I'm hoping for a mod which allows you to kill him (and Volo, another waste of space I can't get out of my game).
My way to have him never annoy me. Do Thaniel's quest WITHOUT having him in the party, done, saved the boy good Act 2 ending. And yes, without Halsin, no saving the kid. Then Ignore his existence, never even talk to him, imagine him just as what he really is, a forced NPC you must have in camp to have a certain quest done. I did it, and boom, all my problems were solved. Still annoys me having to avoid any npc, but honestly, I didn't miss a thing not interacting with the unpleasant horny weirdo dude.
It's kinda sad cause, honestly, I like his design but hate the rest of him. lol. He's destined to die at the goblin camp in all my playthroughs.
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Also, while in the poly thing, isn't that unfair that they gave (forced) a dude option, but didn't have a female option for those who want poly but not a man?
Wait so there's not a poly female option? I thought Minthara was Poly.
My way to have him never annoy me. Do Thaniel's quest WITHOUT having him in the party, done, saved the boy good Act 2 ending. And yes, without Halsin, no saving the kid. Then Ignore his existence, never even talk to him, imagine him just as what he really is, a forced NPC you must have in camp to have a certain quest done. I did it, and boom, all my problems were solved. Still annoys me having to avoid any npc, but honestly, I didn't miss a thing not interacting with the unpleasant horny weirdo dude.
It's kinda sad cause, honestly, I like his design but hate the rest of him. lol. He's destined to die at the goblin camp in all my playthroughs.
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Also, while in the poly thing, isn't that unfair that they gave (forced) a dude option, but didn't have a female option for those who want poly but not a man?
Wait so there's not a poly female option? I thought Minthara was Poly.
Nope, Minthara is 110% mono, and she will threaten to kill you if you try to go flirting around, like with the twins, etc. There's no female poly option in this game. Just old dude Halsin.
Even if there's a severe lack of commitment to the relationship as shown by the mediocre epilogue despite multiple heart to heart moments. Now we know why.
I don't agree with that. In the Selune ending at least whether you save her parents or not she makes it clear she wants to continue the relationship and she'll even stay with you if you become a mind flayer. I do think it's weird that she says "seek me out when you have time" if she saves her parents but if she lets her parents go you will continue traveling together immediately after the events of the game. The discrepancy between saving and letting the parents ending go makes no sense to me but there's no lack of commitment as your character will go to her after some undetermined amount of time.
I don't agree with that. In the Selune ending at least whether you save her parents or not she makes it clear she wants to continue the relationship and she'll even stay with you if you become a mind flayer. I do think it's weird that she says "seek me out when you have time" if she saves her parents but if she lets her parents go you will continue traveling together immediately after the events of the game. The discrepancy between saving and letting the parents ending go makes no sense to me but there's no lack of commitment as your character will go to her after some undetermined amount of time.
It's the third time throughout the playthrough that you have to confirm it to her. First time I'll give a pass because it's just after the Nightsong stuff so she's emotional. Second time however is basically a marriage proposal a long rest after the beach scene. Yet she's still doubtful and needs confirmation again at the end of the game. And yeah, the parents ending is weird in that regard. Even the parents are completely cool with you. I did like that touch (need to talk to the dad before long resting after saving em). But then it's ruined in the ending again.
I don't agree with that. In the Selune ending at least whether you save her parents or not she makes it clear she wants to continue the relationship and she'll even stay with you if you become a mind flayer. I do think it's weird that she says "seek me out when you have time" if she saves her parents but if she lets her parents go you will continue traveling together immediately after the events of the game. The discrepancy between saving and letting the parents ending go makes no sense to me but there's no lack of commitment as your character will go to her after some undetermined amount of time.
It's the third time throughout the playthrough that you have to confirm it to her. First time I'll give a pass because it's just after the Nightsong stuff so she's emotional. Second time however is basically a marriage proposal a long rest after the beach scene. Yet she's still doubtful and needs confirmation again at the end of the game. And yeah, the parents ending is weird in that regard. Even the parents are completely cool with you. I did like that touch (need to talk to the dad before long resting after saving em). But then it's ruined in the ending again.
I really have no idea what you're on about. Where is the non commitment here? She literally says she wants to continue the relationship.
I really have no idea what you're on about. Where is the non commitment here? She literally says she wants to continue the relationship.
Commitment might've been the wrong word. Lack of faith in it instead then. Like I said it's the third time you have to say yes to that question. Why's it have to keep being asked?
I really have no idea what you're on about. Where is the non commitment here? She literally says she wants to continue the relationship.
Commitment might've been the wrong word. Lack of faith in it instead then. Like I said it's the third time you have to say yes to that question. Why's it have to keep being asked?
First of all it only happens twice, after the Nightsong decision and in the epilogue. Secondly she's obviously insecure after everything that's happened. She has multiple lines talking about how she's undeserving of happiness, her family, her real name, and even says she's not sure how she tricked the player into thinking she's deserving of them.
First of all it only happens twice, after the Nightsong decision and in the epilogue. Secondly she's obviously insecure after everything that's happened. She has multiple lines talking about how she's undeserving of happiness, her family, her real name, and even says she's not sure how she tricked the player into thinking she's deserving of them.
Na you missed a scene then. Best vid I could find on it I'm afraid. But yes, fair enough, this is before the House of Grief stuff. I'll just blame it on lack of extended epilogue. Here's to hoping we get more.
At the end of the day nothing is going to get changed anyway.
They probably don't even read this board since it's not the feedback board, you don't see people discussing this stuff and getting up in arms on it on twitter/discord/reddit like you do with Karlach or Minthara so as far as Larian is concerned it's not even a problem. Hell, nobody has even made anything about it on their feedback forum on their Discord. I would but I'm not articulate enough to make a big write up on how shitty this being in the game is.
So either you decide this has ruined Shadowheart's character for you or you treat it as some optional fetish fuel some degenerate writer put him the game for himself and ignore it since you can go the entire game without her even mentioning Halsin even once.
At the end of the day nothing is going to get changed anyway.
They probably don't even read this board since it's not the feedback board, you don't see people discussing this stuff and getting up in arms on it on twitter/discord/reddit like you do with Karlach or Minthara so as far as Larian is concerned it's not even a problem. Hell, nobody has even made anything about it on their feedback forum on their Discord. I would but I'm not articulate enough to make a big write up on how shitty this being in the game is.
So either you decide this has ruined Shadowheart's character for you or you treat it as some optional fetish fuel some degenerate writer put him the game for himself and ignore it since you can go the entire game without her even mentioning Halsin even once.
Ye dw I only found out through the board anyway. Never played with Halsin in party, never will. He should be happy he's the only way (afaik) to save Thaniel or he'd get stoned to death more often. Just found it interesting enough to dig into while I was waiting for the patch.
So Patch 3 just dropped, were there any changes made regarding this? Anyone?... If not I really want them to make some changes atleast in he upcoming patches. Remove the disapproval, add some dialogue about how Tav will not share SH with another. Like that dialogue with Astarion! Make it fair man.
They probably don't even read this board since it's not the feedback board, you don't see people discussing this stuff and getting up in arms on it on twitter/discord/reddit like you do with Karlach or Minthara so as far as Larian is concerned it's not even a problem. Hell, nobody has even made anything about it on their feedback forum on their Discord. I would but I'm not articulate enough to make a big write up on how shitty this being in the game is.
I created a thread in their feedback channel on their discord, in case you guys want to reinforce it, it's called "Shadowheart Romance Inconsistencies" (yeah, I know, not the best title, I'm not perfect with words, but hope that will be enough). I didn't go as deep as we did here, but you could keep commenting things there, and hope for Larian to see it.
I am going to attempt a helpful and considerate response for everyone involved in this discussion. If it seems inconsistent with things I have written earlier, well thoughts and perceptions develop over time so there are aspects where my standpoints can shift.
First of all to address the emotional aspect involved which cannot be disregarded. If you develop an emotional attachment to the character Shadowheart in the game, the attachment is going to carry over to your real emotions and you can't help but react to things that you experience. To validate everyone's feelings involved, Jennifer English, the VA of Shadowheart expresses these things on a deep emotional level in an interview here Go to the timestamp for "emotional scene" and a word of caution that this can hit too close to home for some.
Now with validation of feelings and emotions involved, let's also make it clear that feelings are not facts! This doesn't mean that I dismiss your feelings for anything but real, just that they aren't the same as facts.
The fact is that if you are playing a monogamous romantic storyline with Shadowheart, that scene is not intended for you. That is intended for a different audience. The companions are dynamic NPC's, which means that there are different versions of Shadowheart for different audiences. The player has a degree of control over which version of the dynamic NPC they want so that the story can cater to different audiences. In comparison to the Kagha storyline that OP mentions a few times, Kagha is not a dynamic NPC, all audiences get the same Kagha.
Different versions of Shadowheart for different audiences does not necessarily need to be consistent with one another, but of course, if some key parts of her character background is suddenly completely disregarded it becomes jarring and the writing that has been done to adapt the character to the audience isn't very good.
Those who follow a classic romantic storyline between two people involving Tav and Shadowheart get a very consistent experience, with the exception of the banter between Shadowheart and Halsin, which I must honestly believe is a script error that shouldn't be there unless you are pursuing the polyromance arc, it makes no sense otherwise. I know I played that down in my earlier responses based on my personal feelings about the whole thing, but again feelings aren't facts, so how I personally feel doesn't matter. It carries gravity no matter how I feel about it.
For my experience playing through the game with a romance arc that involved only Tav and Shadowheart where Halsin wasn't even around in act 3, the delivery was very consistent and satisfying. And that's my greatest advice for everyone to take away from here, the other versions of Shadowheart that aren't intended for you doesn't matter! It is the audience that want the Shadowheart that indulges in casual sex together with Tav and others that gets the inconsistent experience, but I doubt that audience cares that deeply about consistency because they just wanted to feel some stirring in their pants. The existence of an inconsistent Shadowheart for a different audience should be their problem, don't make it into yours.
I do not know if I am understanding this correctly, but is Jennifer English in the interview saying she is affected by that poly/orgy scene as well? Is she pointing to that scene or is she talking about something else? She said that there were alot of tears for her that day and that she needed a day off, to recover from it... Because man knowing that even she is affected by this 'emotional' scene gives me such relief, coming from her.
I do not know if I am understanding this correctly, but is Jennifer English in the interview saying she is affected by that poly/orgy scene as well? Is she pointing to that scene or is she talking about something else? She said that there were alot of tears for her that day and that she needed a day off, to recover from it... Because man knowing that even she is affected by this 'emotional' scene gives me such relief, coming from her.
Jennifer was talking about the scene with Shar and Shadowhearts parents if you are talking about her YouTube interview. But you don't need to worry about Jennifers opinion on Halsin because she made it clear that she isn't really a fan of the whole bear thing.
As for the discord thingy, I don't really use discord so I can't do much about it. If you want you can link this thread, that might help.
I haven't been paying much attention to BG3 for the last week or so but I doubt any major changes are gonna come when it comes to rewrites, story improvements etc. any time soon.
Just a nice little thing that I would like to add to the thread since I find it funny.
- Red prince romance: Starts with voyeurisms and ends up with cuckolding the main character
- Halsin: Overall sex pest focusing mainly on fetishes that even his fans don't like (bear scene, bear scene again with the drow twins, and dialogue where he implies he has sex with animals)
- Shadowheart: Surprisingly decent story (for a game) that is ruined buy its ending and its cheating undertones.
Really? She did mention something about 'involving a group of people and a big guy', something along those lines, so I am suspecting when she mentions 'big guy' that is Halsin, and the 'group of people' as the drows.. Do you have links to that part of the interview regarding her opinion on Halsin, or wherever she said that in?
I created a thread in their feedback channel on their discord, in case you guys want to reinforce it, it's called "Shadowheart Romance Inconsistencies" (yeah, I know, not the best title, I'm not perfect with words, but hope that will be enough). I didn't go as deep as we did here, but you could keep commenting things there, and hope for Larian to see it.
Having made the journey from one side of this debate to the other I can help explain what you need to focus on to reach people. At first glance this appears as a classic case of player entitlement, which is how I reacted at first.
You need to approach the discussion from the point of view that it's not a problem that Shadowheart views romantic attraction and sexual attraction as separate and consequently is open to the idea of casual sex and sharing. That is just a matter of personal preferences and feelings, and feelings are not facts.
But there are two big issues:
The consistency issue Here she is deeply in love with Tav, with both romantic and sexual attraction, and also dependant on Tav. Remember that it is Shadowheart that has the higher stakes in this relationship, Tav still has their life outside of the relationship with Shadowheart somewhere and plenty of interested parties looking for their affection. That Tav is the main source of stability and happiness in her life is not up to interpretation based on what she says. We have also established that she prefers to be discreet and likes to keep her cards close to her chest. Why in the nine hells would she risk everything she has with Tav by suddenly being completely blunt and upfront about something that she doesn't even know if Tav is comfortable with? If the player has already romanced Halsin, then it makes more sense and the target audience probably want something to develop between Shadowheart and Halsin here as well. But this happens regardless of whether Tav has shown any interest in Halsin or not, and even worse, even when Tav has clearly rejected Halsin.
The cringe issue Halsin's behaviour is absolutely cringey and toxic, and Shadowheart's as well in at least one instance of how it plays out. Again, if some players want a spicy consentual sex orgy with their companions, that's entirely up to them and I am not telling them how they can enjoy their game. But there is a terrible lack of consideration, communication and consent in the writing. The disapproval reactions goes against everything we are trying to achieve in our modern society around healthy sexual communication. If your partner is not comfortable with something, you should never express disappointment in them, respect and support their feelings! Is it really that f***ing hard to get these things right in a game written in 2023? They supposedly even had intimacy coordinators and editors that read everything to ensure that the player could give consent in all sexual encounters. Who the hell read this one and approved it?
Really? She did mention something about 'involving a group of people and a big guy', something along those lines, so I am suspecting when she mentions 'big guy' that is Halsin, and the 'group of people' as the drows.. Do you have links to that part of the interview regarding her opinion on Halsin, or wherever she said that in?
I can see how someone might interpret that comment 'a couple of other people and a certain big person' as her talking about the Halsin/drow scene but if you listen to her whole answer you can see that she is talking about something more personal to the Shadowhearts story opposed to a random brothel encounter i.e. the choice between saving her parents or not. (the big person is the giant manifestation of Shar)
And if you listen to the question being asked you'll hear that its about her favorite/emotional scene so I doubt that the brothel scene holds that much emotional weight for her.
https://streamable.com/07l78r - Both Jennifer and Devora are joking around but its clear that she is not a fan of bestiality like she says.
edit. Either way my issue with the decision to add the Mizora/Halsin scenes is and has always been with the writing. Me and Ninja might have disagreed in the past but I do agree that if anyone decides to write to the devs or on discord is to focus on the writing aspects of it. (tho don't be afraid to mix it up a bit with your opinion of what you expect in a romance/story)
Her going from I don't want to share/I don't want to be your spare lover/Initiating a breakup if you pursue someone else at the same time as her to a contradictory statement during the Mizora scene of her not wanting anything pure and loyal/not minding you sleeping around and opening the relationship.
And her talking about MC being her true love and spending the rest of her life with them to suddenly flirting and wanting to pursue Halsin.
They supposedly even had intimacy coordinators and editors that read everything to ensure that the player could give consent in all sexual encounters. Who the hell read this one and approved it?
That's actually hilarious. If I were to ever - somehow - find myself in a scenario like that, I'd break up right there and then. No questions asked. The intent is out, there's no salvaging it. Thankfully this is just a videogame and I can easily shrug it off as stupid oversight. Just like how we can't comfort her in any way during her final story cutscene.
Speaking of fetish, I have now considered it would be logical to romance Shadowheart and also bang Karlach. Karlach has weeks to live. Long term relationship (outside of Avernus) is out. And Karlach doesn't want to go back anyway. So the PC...and the half elf...should indulge Karlach as end of life care.
My theory is that they were given all the scenes disjointed, which made it impossible to see the larger context.
Yes, it's a writing and scripting collision/oversight isn't it?
If we follow the path where Tav actively romances Halsin and Shadowheart together it starts with Halsin declaring his interest and asking Tav to speak to Shadowheart first. Shadowheart alludes to being understanding of Tav's desires and "wants all the details" afterwards. This properly foreshadows what Shadowheart says in the brothel scene because Tav has now given Shadowheart a spicy and juicy recollection of their time spent with Halsin. Tav and Shadowheart proceed to take their relationship the next step and then the flirty banter happens in the context of Tav, Halsin and Shadowheart having a fully consensual agreement about their poly relationship. It all checks out.
But when bad writing/scripting causes this path to get mixed up with the path where Tav has shown no interest in including Halsin (or worse, actively rejected him) it instead just becomes creepy, cringey and toxic.
Yes, it's a writing and scripting collision/oversight isn't it?
If we follow the path where Tav actively romances Halsin and Shadowheart together it starts with Halsin declaring his interest and asking Tav to speak to Shadowheart first. Shadowheart alludes to being understanding of Tav's desires and "wants all the details" afterwards. This properly foreshadows what Shadowheart says in the brothel scene because Tav has now given Shadowheart a spicy and juicy recollection of their time spent with Halsin. Tav and Shadowheart proceed to take their relationship the next step and then the flirty banter happens in the context of Tav, Halsin and Shadowheart having a fully consensual agreement about their poly relationship. It all checks out.
But when bad writing/scripting causes this path to get mixed up with the path where Tav has shown no interest in including Halsin (or worse, actively rejected him) it instead just becomes creepy, cringey and toxic.
Pretty much this. These dialogues should only trigger if you agreed to it. Even if the whole idea of Shadowheart suddenly being fine with poly doesn't make any sense based on how she was written for the entirety of act 1 and act 2, at least it'd be more consistent with your act 3 choices then. EDIT: Same goes for Astarion to be fair. In both cases it feels pointlessly forced; why would the characters written as the most vulnerable and dependent be the ones that are okay with it? Halsin's entire inclusion as romance character just feels like a writing mistake.
I'll never know if they'll change it though because Halsin will never enter my party anyway. I'd rather have a hireling if it comes to it.
It truly is, and I find it telling that they are both (Shadowheart and Halsin) written by the lead writer. Was his team not able to call him out of any of this, when they were so attentive at other times?
Or did he simply ignore them? I am sure he is a talented writer, but I think perhaps they should consider leaving the companion writing to the others, who might be better and more nuanced in their writing.
I said it earlier but I'm convinced there is no way they're ever going to change this.
There's a big reddit thread about companion drow twin interactions and the way people celebrate the way Halsin and Shadowheart react in that situation is just disgusting to me. Clearly there's only a small section of us that actually think this is an issue which is such a shame. And the few people that tried to speak out against it just got downvoted and their comments hidden.
To be fair for the sake of Shadowheart all they have to do is change the triggers so this only happens if you had your one night stand with Halsin instead of declining him. Have her say no to his advances the same way you did if you said no, or easier yet, just have him actually respect your boundaries like he said he would if you decline him and remove the triggers entirely. He did an incredible job otherwise writing her story, there's a reason we are so invested.
That doesn't solve Halsin's overall romance writing compared to what people wanted, but at least it solves this issue.
It needs to be laid out in its' entirety and context like Michieltjuhh did with all the lines and actual choices where Tav declines Halsin clear for everyone to see.
That's what flipped my view on the entire thing, and I thank you for doing that.
Asking straight out to people if they think it is ok that Halsin propositions Tav for sex and gets declined. And then proceeds to team up with Tav's partner and the two of them together guilting Tav to try and coerce them into having sex with him anyway? That is so f****ing toxic that I had no other option than to completely change my standpoint when faced with that information. It's a virtual mic-drop!
And Larian can either stick with this writing and outright say that all their fancy words about consent and sensitivity means nothing, or they can do the right thing and change it. I am not deeply invested in Halsin or Shadowheart or any other companion, but I am deeply invested in making our world safer with teaching proper communication about boundaries and consent!
Edit: Of course, recognising the fact that it's entirely avoidable without having any effect on your story at all which is the saving grace for the whole thing. But it is still in poor taste that it CAN happen.
I said it earlier but I'm convinced there is no way they're ever going to change this.
There's a big reddit thread about companion drow twin interactions and the way people celebrate the way Halsin and Shadowheart react in that situation is just disgusting to me. Clearly there's only a small section of us that actually think this is an issue which is such a shame. And the few people that tried to speak out against it just got downvoted and their comments hidden.
That's strange, because every time I've seen this dialog discussed, majority seemed to be frustrated by it. I suppose a lot of people just doesn't see this as the major issue and doesn't take it seriously, that's all. Besides, as many stated before, this issue is pretty easily fixable: just add one trigger and everyone is happy, so I think there is a good chance Larian would adress it at some point.
I said it earlier but I'm convinced there is no way they're ever going to change this.
There's a big reddit thread about companion drow twin interactions and the way people celebrate the way Halsin and Shadowheart react in that situation is just disgusting to me. Clearly there's only a small section of us that actually think this is an issue which is such a shame. And the few people that tried to speak out against it just got downvoted and their comments hidden.
That's strange, because every time I've seen this dialog discussed, majority seemed to be frustrated by it. I suppose a lot of people just doesn't see this as the major issue and doesn't take it seriously, that's all. Besides, as many stated before, this issue is pretty easily fixable: just add one trigger and everyone is happy, so I think there is a good chance Larian would adress it at some point.
That depends where you read it. Here the majority of people are discussed, but if you go to reddit that's a whole different story. I think someone posted something about this SH/Halsin/Twins situations recently and the majority of people didn't seem to bothered it.
I said it earlier but I'm convinced there is no way they're ever going to change this.
There's a big reddit thread about companion drow twin interactions and the way people celebrate the way Halsin and Shadowheart react in that situation is just disgusting to me. Clearly there's only a small section of us that actually think this is an issue which is such a shame. And the few people that tried to speak out against it just got downvoted and their comments hidden.
That's strange, because every time I've seen this dialog discussed, majority seemed to be frustrated by it. I suppose a lot of people just doesn't see this as the major issue and doesn't take it seriously, that's all. Besides, as many stated before, this issue is pretty easily fixable: just add one trigger and everyone is happy, so I think there is a good chance Larian would adress it at some point.
That depends where you read it. Here the majority of people are discussed, but if you go to reddit that's a whole different story. I think someone posted something about this SH/Halsin/Twins situations recently and the majority of people didn't seem to bothered it.
I think I saw that post but typically I just see comments on other topics about it, sometimes it's a good discussion but I have also seen those who raise issues with the writing around this called incels, immature, cucks, liars or the like (in the post I think you're talking about that was going on in the replies). It's very hard to get anywhere after that. I prefer discussions here on the forums overall.
I think I saw that post but typically I just see comments on other topics about it, sometimes it's a good discussion but I have also seen those who raise issues with the writing around this called incels, immature, cucks, liars or the like (in the post I think you're talking about that was going on in the replies). It's very hard to get anywhere after that. I prefer discussions here on the forums overall.
Exactly what incentive is there to change anything about this when this is how the people that want it changed are viewed?
I hope Larian listens and makes some changes to Shadowheart. I'm fine with the poly thing being there (said thing should only be available to her through her Shar path) but... you should at least be able to talk to her about not wanting to share her and having a more monogamous relationship. After said conversation make it so she disapproves of any attempts to hook up with any other people or horny bears. I really hope this happens because it makes her romance for me feel cheapened because all of a sudden she wants us to share ourselves with everybody else with not much say from you unless you ignore it. So please make some simple changes to her by just adding some simple dialogue to tell her your not all right with it or leaving the poly stuff locked behind her Shar path.
That depends where you read it. Here the majority of people are discussed, but if you go to reddit that's a whole different story. I think someone posted something about this SH/Halsin/Twins situations recently and the majority of people didn't seem to bothered it.
If 99% of people aren't bothered by disregard for sexual consent, then 99% of people are still wrong.
I will remain with the 1% who are right regardless. Through persistence and clear factual evidence and context I was convinced to change my standpoint on this, so other people can be convinced as well.
That depends where you read it. Here the majority of people are discussed, but if you go to reddit that's a whole different story. I think someone posted something about this SH/Halsin/Twins situations recently and the majority of people didn't seem to bothered it.
If 99% of people aren't bothered by disregard for sexual consent, then 99% of people are still wrong.
I will remain with the 1% who are right regardless. Through persistence and clear factual evidence and context I was convinced to change my standpoint on this, so other people can be convinced as well.
Agreed. But at the end of the day, if there's only a 1% of people bothered by this, the chances of Larian doing something are really low. Even if this situation ruins the character (at least ruins it for me) I don't think they'll do anything about it.
While we are definetly not the majority, I don't think our number are low either, since I've seen a lot of people complaining(I suppose it really depends on the place of discussion). Besides, Larian policy is to make content even for 1-2% of the players, so I think they might fix it eventually. On that note, I remind everyone to leave feadback on the matter.
This really came out of nowhere, she was written as monogamous for most of the game, and suddenly after final romance scene she is poly.
If you reject Halsin he should not try to but in the relationship, maybe romance triggers are bugged.
I think the game does a poor job describing how companions really are (or the canonical point of views). I think a good way to show how they really are is through their approval system. Instead of just showing you they approved something, I think it'll be a good idea that in certain conversations that may reveal a hidden side of their personality, they can try to intervene and take 'control' of the conversation (basically switching from Tav to companion); that way you will learn something through them (maybe even give them special dialogues to show a hidden side of them).
You could still earn their approval, they'll show you an unknown side of them in a way that 'makes' sense and that could open the possibility of them talking about their preferences in the future, all of this while beign optional (you could simply choose not to switch from Tav to companion).
I dont know, it makes sense in my head. In fact I thought about this when interacting with the pain priest at the goblin camp. After seeing how she encouraged the priest to make my Tav 'repent', I just had to load a saved file and see her reaction when controlling her. Now when I see a companion having a 'very positive and encouraging' reaction, I got to load again and see how they act in that situation themselves.
Helps with my headcanon. lol
PS: But in all honesty, the game is done. I don't think they'll do much besides getting rid of bugs, making an Xbox version and fixing Karlach.
Don't think she is canonically poly, she will be what player chooses.
In my first playthrough, Tav didn't cheat on her, didn't enter relationship with Halsin ( he was always left in camp), didn't visit drow twins, and relationship was 100% monogamous.
If Tav don't cheat on her, she won't either, and she won't mention poly, i think Shadowheart (and Astarion) poly was included only because Halsin is poly (so he can be with somebody else beside Tav).
This really came out of nowhere, she was written as monogamous for most of the game, and suddenly after final romance scene she is poly.
If you reject Halsin he should not try to butt in the relationship, maybe romance triggers are bugged.
For me the Halsin romance option triggered before her final romance scene, so she was actually fine with me sleeping with Halsin before my first time with her. However, she's not okay with the drow twins before your first time together. Which also makes little sense, but the whole situation doesn't make much sense. In fact, it makes the writing all the more cringe too. She says something about cobwebbed loincloths if you aren't interested in Halsin.. lady, you've not even slept with us yet and you've traveled with us for so long and are in love with us. Which is wholesome, but also incredibly contradictory.
Originally Posted by Illiti
Don't think she is canonically poly, she will be what player chooses.
In my first playthrough, Tav didn't cheat on her, didn't enter relationship with Halsin ( he was always left in camp), didn't visit drow twins, and relationship was 100% monogamous.
If Tav don't cheat on her, she won't either, and she won't mention poly, i think Shadowheart (and Astarion) poly was included only because Halsin is poly (so he can be with somebody else beside Tav).
It's only the case if you bring Halsin along with you, aye, which is why I also didn't know of it until this thread. I did not bring Halsin along in my playthroughs.
But it is a problem for those that do bring Halsin along, and just a consistency issue.
Don't think she is canonically poly, she will be what player chooses.
In my first playthrough, Tav didn't cheat on her, didn't enter relationship with Halsin ( he was always left in camp), didn't visit drow twins, and relationship was 100% monogamous.
If Tav don't cheat on her, she won't either, and she won't mention poly, i think Shadowheart (and Astarion) poly was included only because Halsin is poly (so he can be with somebody else beside Tav).
I never said she was poly. However, she shows feelings for Karlach and definitely a sexual attraction to Halsin (I've read that on act 3 she got nasty banters with Wyll but I haven't see it). But that doesn't make her poly. If you take a monogamous path with her, you can still stumble upon the twin scene and if you got Halsin on your team (and meet others conditions). Well, all I can say is 'enjoy' the view. lol.
It would be nice if at some point in the adventure you find, I don't know, a painting of an orgy and she reacts to it and let player know she approves those situations. Or better yet, let her know if you're into those things or not, and that way, avoiding they drow situation.
I never said she was poly. However, she shows feelings for Karlach and definitely a sexual attraction to Halsin (I've read that on act 3 she got nasty banters with Wyll but I haven't see it). But that doesn't make her poly. If you take a monogamous path with her, you can still stumble upon the twin scene and if you got Halsin on your team (and meet others conditions). Well, all I can say is 'enjoy' the view. lol.
It would be nice if at some point in the adventure you find, I don't know, a painting of an orgy and she reacts to it and let player know she approves those situations. Or better yet, let her know if you're into those things or not, and that way, avoiding they drow situation.
The Karlach situation was in act 1. There's no romance yet, nor did she disobey Shar yet. The only act 3 dialogue with Wyll I remember is her taking the piss out of him regarding devils to the point that he calls her one. Was actually quite cruel.
And yes, I'd rather it was a player choice, than have them rewrite her to full on poly like Halsin is right now. Though it'd still make no sense anyway, she wants to go be a hermit on a farm with you (and her parents if you didn't disenchant them), yet she's okay with sleeping around for the sake of it? Doesn't sound right to me.
I think Shadowheart being "poly" could be a thing, but just as much I see her more into females in that regard. As with her wanting to be carried by Karlach etc... Which I found strange we cannot romance Shadowheart and Karlach together, seeing as they have good chemistry. As for how I played it; despite the initial heated relationship between Shadowheart and Lae'zel; I could see the three of them all together in a relationship 4way with our "tav" I was a female Drow. So it felt cohesive enough imo.
I'm not by means a Halsin fan, in fact I don't really like him at all and he just feels so very tacked on. I also didn't interact very much with him at all, So I hadn't gotten any voicelines from him either.
At the end of the day, we all have our beliefs and headcanons I suppose.
And yes, I'd rather it was a player choice, than have them rewrite her to full on poly like Halsin is right now. Though it'd still make no sense anyway, she wants to go be a hermit on a farm with you (and her parents if you didn't disenchant them), yet she's okay with sleeping around for the sake of it? Doesn't sound right to me.
She doesn't have to be full poly, in fact, I'd say she's not poly at all. I'd say she's attracted to Halsin, that's why she doesn't care if you sleep with him (and maybe opens an opportunity for her to do it at some point). If she were poly, she'd allowed you to have a relationship a least with Karlach (the other person she has shown to be attracted to) but that doesn't happen.
Edit: forgot to mention that in Mizora's scene, although she says she doesn't mind, she's clearly annoyed. It looks more like a 'if you cheated, I'll cheat too' situation, specially with what she says at the end about her needs.
The whole drow scene and the banter between her and Halsin AFTER you had sex with her (giving the context, that's the most disgusting banter in the game, IMO) was made to accommodate Halsin's poly relationship. And at the same time, destroying her character and development. She's probably the slowest romance in the game and suddenly wants participate in orgies and openly flirting next to the person she says to love so much. It's ridiculous.
@Ravenna_Ravager
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At the end of the day, we all have our beliefs and headcanons I suppose.
True. That's why all my Tavs, regardless of gender, are terrified of bears. And while trying to get the favor of the goblin's leaders, will kill a suspicious cave bear. lol
The whole drow scene and the banter between her and Halsin AFTER you had sex with her (giving the context, that's the most disgusting banter in the game, IMO) was made to accommodate Halsin's poly relationship. And at the same time, destroying her character and development. She's probably the slowest romance in the game and suddenly wants participate in orgies and openly flirting next to the person she says to love so much. It's ridiculous.
This, slowest romance, will break with Tav at any hint of infidelity in act 2, and suddenly she is into orgies, don't buy it, it's just there to accommodate Halsin.
Or you can headcanon it, that she agrees to orgies because she is afraid of losing Tav (after losing everything else in her life), first person who showed her kindness in who knows how long.
But there is still issue of her flirting with Halsin, they should remove that if Tav rejected Halsin.
At this point I'm basically just going to kill Halsin everytime if I can. Meanwhile I'd want to save Minthara every time, I wonder what that means. Hmmm.
I just don't think she should show any attraction to Halsin regardless, The dudes a tool and comes off as creepy just from his initial greeting or whatever.
[quote=NeedaUserName]Or you can headcanon it, that she agrees to orgies because she is afraid of losing Tav (after losing everything else in her life), first person who showed her kindness in who knows how long.
I can only headcanon what the game gives me, and the game clearly shows that she's attracted to him (possibly even more to him than your Tav). She's not afraid to lose Tav, she's excited by the chance of getting bear boy to bed. lol
But that's just me, people can play the game however they like. At the end of the day, it's just a game.
At this point I'm basically just going to kill Halsin everytime if I can. Meanwhile I'd want to save Minthara every time, I wonder what that means. Hmmm.
I just don't think she should show any attraction to Halsin regardless, The dudes a tool and comes off as creepy just from his initial greeting or whatever.
Ahh, you're a wise man (or woman) indeed. Welcome to the no-bears club. lol
This thread is still going!? Nice to see that people have finally caught up with this games not so stellar writing and poor decisions.
In my humble opinion I think that early access for BG3 has been a mistake, it gave Larian total freedom to experiment with different ideas and storylines without fully finishing any of them. Which gave life to the Frankenstein's monster of a story that we have now.
They felt the need to add certain options/choices for every player without thinking how it might affect what was previously written/established and that's how Shadowhearts story/romance ended up being the way it is now. (other companions have their problems also)
To be honest I lost interest in discussing BG3 and its problems/story (mainly because I think everything that could be said has already been said) but from time to time I do like to pop in and check what everyone is doing. And every time I do, Shadowheart and Halsin threads always make me laugh. How did the developers that claimed, scratch that, bragged about their romances being more mature ended up with such a mess. (professional intimacy coordinators pfft)
Just a quick rundown:
- Shadowheart has a sexual past during her brainwashing years as a Sharan acolyte. (so she's not a virgin as some might think and no, casual sex doesn't mean polyamory)
- Implies that she never had a relationship or at least a relationship where she felt as strongly as she does for the MC.
- Claims that she is not interested in sharing the MC with anyone and breaks up because of it.
- Calls the MC her true love and wants to spend the rest of her life with them.
- Contradicts the no sharing/you're the only one I want stance by saying that she never cared or wanted something loyal/pure during the Mizora scene and by flirting/wanting to have sex with Halsin.
- Bonus one because it makes me laugh. If you don't romance her she shows no interest in Halsin. (I see what you did there you cheeky writer)
When I look at her romance I see two possibilities. The Halsin thing was slapped on at the end without giving it any thought or she is meant to be a manipulative psycho that uses and lies to the MC. So which one is it?
- Shadowheart has a sexual past during her brainwashing years as a Sharan acolyte. (so she's not a virgin as some might think and no, casual sex doesn't mean polyamory)
Yup it's why her story works so well with Dark Urge. Now if only they solved the triggers in act 3.
Originally Posted by Rotsen
- Implies that she never had a relationship or at least a relationship where she felt as strongly as she does for the MC.
- Claims that she is not interested in sharing the MC with anyone and breaks up because of it.
- Calls the MC her true love and wants to spend the rest of her life with them.
Pretty much sums up why it doesn't make sense.
Originally Posted by Rotsen
- Contradicts the no sharing/you're the only one I want stance by saying that she never cared or wanted something loyal/pure during the Mizora scene and by flirting/wanting to have sex with Halsin.
Hadn't thought of it but yeah, for someone who's so devoted to us it's surprising she suddenly assumes we wouldn't be. But we already know that all the 'cheating' scenes in act 3 (drows, Halsin, Mizora, I bet she'd even be fine with Emperor and Haarlep if there was actual dialogue in those cases) are retconned for the sake of Halsin poly.
Originally Posted by Rotsen
When I look at her romance I see two possibilities. The Halsin thing was slapped on at the end without giving it any thought or she is meant to be a manipulative psycho that uses and lies to the MC. So which one is it?
That'd be quite the impressive dedication to that manipulation considering she ditches her goddess for us and faces all the dire consequences while keeping up the façade. Even the Dark Urge butler fell for it!
[quote=NeedaUserName]Or you can headcanon it, that she agrees to orgies because she is afraid of losing Tav (after losing everything else in her life), first person who showed her kindness in who knows how long.
I can only headcanon what the game gives me, and the game clearly shows that she's attracted to him (possibly even more to him than your Tav). She's not afraid to lose Tav, she's excited by the chance of getting bear boy to bed. lol
But that's just me, people can play the game however they like. At the end of the day, it's just a game.
I just vehemently disagree with everything you just said. She has multiple lines in the game telling you she wants to spend the rest of her life you Tav. She tells you your Tav you are the most important thing in her life, she tells your Tav she's changed as a person because of your Tav, and that she doesn't think she's even worthy of your Tav. Her greatest desire is moving to some secluded cottage with your Tav and her parents and even expresses wanting to have kids with your Tav so to say she's not scared of losing Tav is just ridiculous.
Don't try to make this Halsin thing into something more than it is. Is she attracted to him? Sure, but so are most companions you can find lines about Karlach and Wyll also showing attraction to him as well. But attraction doesn't matter it's actions and by all accounts there is no reason to believe she would ever act on anything with Halsin unless you agree to it as well and also with you involved in it. When you can go the entire game, like probably 95% of the people that romanced her did, without her saying a single thing about Halsin then saying she's more attracted to Halsin than your Tav is just completely asinine.
so to say she's not scared of losing Tav is just ridiculous.
I was referring specifically about the drow interaction, not her romance as a whole. Saying she doesn't want to lose Tav when she wants to sleep with Halsin feels wrong to me. And yes, it's a contradiction to everything you just wrote. At least in my opinion, of course.
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Don't try to make this Halsin thing into something more than it is.
I don't know in which part of my post I tried to do this, I even wrote...
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But that's just me, people can play the game however they like. At the end of the day, it's just a game.
But whatever.
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But attraction doesn't matter it's actions and by all accounts there is no reason to believe she would ever act on anything with Halsin unless you agree to it as well and also with you involved in it....
Agreed. Being in a relationship (in the real life) doesn't mean you won't get attracted to other people. I never implied that.
And yes, Tav agrees to a 4some with her and twins, not with Halsin. He simply appears and invites himself, and she's soo into it that seems out of character. You even get the disapprove reaction. So yes, that's risking a relationship for someone she's attracted to.
I'd imagine that scenario in real life ending in a divorce. But that's just me. Maybe you see things different? That's OK too.
Just a reminder because I see people just picking and choosing depending on their argument.
- Shadowheart finds Halsin attractive not matter what. (you find out about it mostly through her romance, either party banter or choosing to accept the twins offer with both Shadowheart and Halsin in the party)
- Shadowheart flirts with Halsin no matter what while in a relationship with the MC. (party banter)
- Shadowheart wont sleep with Halsin behind the MCs back or without MCs say so.
- Shadowheart will disapprove if you don't allow Halsin to join in on your foursome/fivesome.
- Shadowheart will mainly focus on Halsin during the fivesome.
- Shadowheart will be open to a poly relationship only with Halsin.
- Halsin will butt in and go for your romance (both Shadowheart and Astarion) no matter what even if you rejected him.
Now, I know a lot of people like to apply the 'out of sight, out of mind'/'I didn't see it so it didn't happen' argument but there is a bit of a problem with that. Shadowhearts attraction/flirting and interest in sleeping with Halsin is a fact, the only thing that is optional/player dependent is the sexual act. (poly/twins scenes)
She was written in a way that as soon as you enter ACT 3 and finish her romance she becomes receptive to Halsins advances. (same with Astarion) She is meant to have a flirty banter with Halsin and the only thing keeping her from having it is the player not using Halsin in the party. She is meant to have dreams and ideas of sleeping with Halsin and the only thing keeping the player from finding out is not going to the twins with Halsin there.
(I like the majority of players never knew about this in my Shadowheart romance run because for the majority of that run I never had both of them in my party. Like the majority of players I visited the twins only once at the beginning of ACT 3 and got the 'I want to sleep with you first' response from Shadowheart. But what made me aware of the whole situation is that after finishing her romance and at one point adding Halsin to the party the first thing I got as my party spawned in the city was the flirtation. Rest came from YouTube and other forums which I confirmed later on.)
Until they change this rather toxic situation, the only canon way of having Shadowheart not dream more of Halsin than your Tav, is by killing him before he gets to speak! ALL HAIL THE GOBLIN KIDS! They were just trying to secure your Tav's future!
Until they change this rather toxic situation, the only canon way of having Shadowheart not dream more of Halsin than your Tav, is by killing him before he gets to speak! ALL HAIL THE GOBLIN KIDS! They were just trying to secure your Tav's future!
Praise the sun! I mean... Praise One, little goblin that got oneshoted by horny bear. You dead wasn't in vain. Horny bear got killed (funnily enough) by SH, couldn't even talk with his corpse after she used Inflict Wound. lol
Hard agree on this, they at least should've added option in some conversation early in act 3(around her skinny dip scene timing) where you could say that you prefer full mono or something. That would place flag that you decided to go full mono and all that "interesting" things with Halsin wouldnt happen, also Mizora/Haarlep/Emperor flings would result in her massive disapproval if you ve chosen to go mono. At least thats how I d imagine this.
How you see your game and react to the things you don't like is of course entirely up to you. But this sort of re-hashes the old pointless argument that you can somehow play a single player game in the "wrong" way. What is the point of trying to convince me or others that I can't apply my own mindset to my own game?
I am 100% with you about this terrible writing and how it is shoehorned in as an afterthought because they decided they had to include poly and swinger sex just to satisfy a bunch of thirsty fans. And everything about it is really toxic and uncomfortable if you aren't interested in that and without any warning it gets pushed on you anyway if you make certain decisions. I find Halsin utterly disgusting and the whole fandom around him gives me toxic Christian Grey vibes (not his original fans that wanted him to be someone entirely different), so I just avoid him as much as I can and he doesn't ruin any of my relationships in the game for me. I understand entirely if your mindset is different and that my response as to how I deal with it isn't very helpful to you (or doesn't make any sense to you). I am not saying that you could just do what I do. You are who you are and not the same as me.
Can we focus more on the actual issues of the problematic and bad writing and not how everyone who are on the same side here has to play their own story.
I find the discussion here strange. Married women flirt in real life too, they dream too, it's not a bad thing if SH is interested in Halsin, even if she is in a relationship.
How you see your game and react to the things you don't like is of course entirely up to you. But this sort of re-hashes the old pointless argument that you can somehow play a single player game in the "wrong" way. What is the point of trying to convince me or others that I can't apply my own mindset to my own game?
I am 100% with you about this terrible writing and how it is shoehorned in as an afterthought because they decided they had to include poly and swinger sex just to satisfy a bunch of thirsty fans. And everything about it is really toxic and uncomfortable if you aren't interested in that and without any warning it gets pushed on you anyway if you make certain decisions. I find Halsin utterly disgusting and the whole fandom around him gives me toxic Christian Grey vibes (not his original fans that wanted him to be someone entirely different), so I just avoid him as much as I can and he doesn't ruin any of my relationships in the game for me. I understand entirely if your mindset is different and that my response as to how I deal with it isn't very helpful to you (or doesn't make any sense to you). I am not saying that you could just do what I do. You are who you are and not the same as me.
Can we focus more on the actual issues of the problematic and bad writing and not how everyone who are on the same side here has to play their own story.
Im sorry Ninja but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Nowhere did I disparage or discourige anyones playstile. If a player chooses to play things or see things differently than I do its entirely up to them and thats totaly fine.
What I pointed out is that things don't change and are set in stone regardless if you choose to ignore them or not. The rest of it (writing and its implementation) we agree on.
Originally Posted by EdaLee
I find the discussion here strange. Married women flirt in real life too, they dream too, it's not a bad thing if SH is interested in Halsin, even if she is in a relationship.
LMAO. Eda I know that you are poly or at least poly adjacent from your posts in the Halsin thread so if you have no issue with it that's fine. But I'm going to tell you a little secret. In most mono relationships (straight, gay, lesbian, bi) that's called emotional cheating. Flirting with someone else in front of your partner and talking about wanting to have sex with someone else when your partner is not into it leads to a break up.
But, they put SH in this situation to sleep with Halsin and their Tav's aren't mono either after all the bed stories. If they break up because of a flirt or a dream, then there is something wrong with the relationship.
Im sorry Ninja but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Nowhere did I disparage or discourige anyones playstile. If a player chooses to play things or see things differently than I do its entirely up to them and thats totaly fine.
What I pointed out is that things don't change and are set in stone regardless if you choose to ignore them or not. The rest of it (writing and its implementation) we agree on.
Perfectly fine, ignore what I said then.
Like I said I think the bad writing is the main issue. And to me the Shadowheart issue is just a small part of a much larger problem which is the toxic garbage heap that is Halsin and how he stinks up everything he touches.
But, they put SH in this situation to sleep with Halsin and their Tav's aren't mono either after all the bed stories. If they break up because of a flirt or a dream, then there is something wrong with the relationship.
The real relationships thing and whether you think the break up is warranted or not is entirely up to you. But I rather not go deeper into it than necessary, it has a tendency to derail the topic.
I think you are being a bit selective in using peoples arguments with what the issue is here. The flirting/invitation to sex in that banter happens regardless of whether or not the MC opened the relationship or not.
I'm just going to recommend you re-read the posts (at lest the recent ones) people have made in both Shadowheart and Halsin threads. (Ninja as someone that has a different perspective than most had some good posts recently that they made in regards to the writing/implementation) And if you still disagree? Then we just have different views on relationships and in this case the story/writing.
Guys you are so cuddly, you remind me of my son who also likes SH and that's why he wanted to kill Halsin, I had to stop him.
Thanks for demeaning our concerns about rape culture and not respecting when someone has given clear information that they do not consent.
Do you approve of people asking your son for sex and ignoring his wishes for them to leave him alone when he says he doesn't want to?
Edit: Apologies for being so harsh and dragging your children into it.
I see problematic behaviour that aligns with rape culture and coercive manipulation. You could respond that you don't make the same interpretation without belittling me.
I'm in my late 30s. I live and have lived, I won't respond to something so exaggerated.
Since a lot of people seem to entirely miss the context and point. This is what I am talking about:
Halsin: I am attracted to you Tav and I would like to have sex with you.
Tav: Sorry, I am not interested in that. I just like you as a friend.
Halsin: I respect that, though I had to try. I won't bother you again.
A few scenes later:
Halsin: Shadowheart, would you be interested in having sex together with me and Tav? <-- wtf, I said no. Assumed consent much?
And another scene later:
Halsin: Oh, you and Shadowheart are about to have sex together with some other people, can I join too?
That's two strikes for you Halsin!! That's two too many! And to top it off, let's throw in a little guilttrip at the end too by openly expressing our disapproval.
So again, if you refuse to see rape culture when it is on full display and deny how that is insensitive and inconsiderate to other people, then we are done talking.
Guys you are so cuddly, you remind me of my son who also likes SH and that's why he wanted to kill Halsin, I had to stop him.
Thanks for demeaning our concerns about rape culture and not respecting when someone has given clear information that they do not consent.
Do you approve of people asking your son for sex and ignoring his wishes for them to leave him alone when he says he doesn't want to?
Do I think she's being a bit condescending in that post? Sure, but I think you came in a bit too hard there.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
Since a lot of people seem to entirely miss the context and point. This is what I am talking about:
Halsin: I am attracted to you Tav and I would like to have sex with you.
Tav: Sorry, I am not interested in that. I just like you as a friend.
Halsin: I respect that, though I had to try. I won't bother you again.
A few scenes later:
Halsin: Shadowheart, would you be interested in having sex together with me and Tav? <-- wtf, I said no. Assumed consent much?
And another scene later:
Halsin: Oh, you and Shadowheart are about to have sex together with some other people, can I join too?
That's two strikes for you Halsin!! That's two too many! And to top it off, let's throw in a little guilttrip at the end too by openly expressing our disapproval.
So again, if you refuse to see rape culture when it is on full display and deny how that is insensitive and inconsiderate to other people, then we are done talking.
This post, great! Really shows how much of a sex pest Halsin is and that the game ignores players choice when it comes to him.
Perhaps Halsin was confused by the double standards? Whatever. it's a game, the developers don't have to rotate on everything.
Double standards? LOL
'You want to have sex with other people but not with me! The only reason you rejected me is because of your double standards!'
Damn dude, that's a perfect fit for a nice guys tm.
edit. I'll say this one last time, most people didn't even initiate the twins/poly scene and he still decided to be a creep after you reject him. And I'm out, have fun guys
It's not double standard. Rejection mean no. And no is a full sentence that should be accepted. If Tav doesn't want Halsin and says so, Halsin needs to back off. He's not entitled to sex just because Tav has sex with others.
So, even if SH and Tav agrees to sleep with the drows doesn't make it okay for someone else to say "if you pick them, you have to pick me too".
And I know, it's a game and these are not real people. But rape-culture is a huge problem in our society, and I still think it's wrong to normalize it the way they do here. No is no. Consent matters. And if they want to tread upon sensitive topics like this, they should do it with care and make sure there's enough context, discussion and solutions to these things so that the player at least has a way to react and solve the issue. Did they want Halsin to be a creep? Fine, then give me the option to call him out on it and send him the hell away from my camp for breaching my trust.
It's not double standard. Rejection mean no. And no is a full sentence that should be accepted. If Tav doesn't want Halsin and says so, Halsin needs to back off. He's not entitled to sex just because Tav has sex with others.
So, even if SH and Tav agrees to sleep with the drows doesn't make it okay for someone else to say "if you pick them, you have to pick me too".
And I know, it's a game and these are not real people. But rape-culture is a huge problem in our society, and I still think it's wrong to normalize it the way they do here. No is no. Consent matters. And if they want to tread upon sensitive topics like this, they should do it with care and make sure there's enough context, discussion and solutions to these things so that the player at least has a way to react and solve the issue. Did they want Halsin to be a creep? Fine, then give me the option to call him out on it and send him the hell away from my camp for breaching my trust.
Thank you! I appreciate everything you just said here!
Guys please, the discussion reminded me of my son, I don't take it seriously, sorry if it bothers you so much.
I think you're completely ignoring the points people had shown here about the Halsin-SH situation.
If you like Halsin, that's OK. But this is a SH romance post. I wouldn't imagine going to the Halsin post and start defending SH while completely ignoring the points made & the original discussion.
Going back to topic.
I don't think they should change the personalities/preferences of any companion. I do think they should had added foreshadow of it throughout the game. And as I said before, using the approval system in certain interactions would had been a great way to achieve this (IMO).
I think that player should know SH has more sexual experience than it looks like before the cheating/Mizora scene. Heck, maybe even in act 1 she could comment something when you find the orc-ogre scene (just a comment, I'd be too soon in the adventure for such a confection) and later on let player know that, despite her almost childish romance, she got lot of experience.
That way if you ended up in the twins drow scene later on, it would:
1 - Make sense when she says she only wants you for herself your first time together, but is ok with the idea of sharing you.
2 - If you ended up in the fivesome, at least I won't be too shocking.
They don't have to change the whole character, they have to make certain scenarios to make sense.
And of course, they should made something in the flirting system, and when you reject Halsin he should stopped trying to get in the way.
I hate this notion that it should be "fixed" by making her more poly. That is not the fix that I want at all. The relationship with Seluneheart as it is presented in the game is HEAVILY implied that she wants something monogamous so if anything is changed there should be a conversation you can have with her about staying monogamous together that she happily agrees to or the shit with Halsin is just removed altogether.
I hate this notion that it should be "fixed" by making her more poly. That is not the fix that I want at all. The relationship with Seluneheart as it is presented in the game is HEAVILY implied that she wants something monogamous so if anything is changed there should be a conversation you can have with her about staying monogamous together that she happily agrees to or the shit with Halsin is just removed altogether.
I'm not asking for her to be more poly. I'm talking of what is already in the game. If they don't gonna remove it, at least make it in a way that makes sense with the character. I'm not asking for extra poly content for her.
I hate this notion that it should be "fixed" by making her more poly. That is not the fix that I want at all. The relationship with Seluneheart as it is presented in the game is HEAVILY implied that she wants something monogamous so if anything is changed there should be a conversation you can have with her about staying monogamous together that she happily agrees to or the shit with Halsin is just removed altogether.
I'm not asking for her to be more poly. I'm talking of what is already in the game. If they don't gonna remove it, at least make it in a way that makes sense with the character. I'm not asking for extra poly content for her.
But adding content to the game to show that she's poly earlier is making her more poly and in turn makes you wrong for wanting a monogamous relationship with her. Again, that is not what I want and not what 99% of the people that romanced her would want. Just change in game flags so she doesn't do a complete 180 in her personality the second you decide to add Halsin to your party in act 3, that's it.
I hate this notion that it should be "fixed" by making her more poly. That is not the fix that I want at all. The relationship with Seluneheart as it is presented in the game is HEAVILY implied that she wants something monogamous so if anything is changed there should be a conversation you can have with her about staying monogamous together that she happily agrees to or the shit with Halsin is just removed altogether.
I'm not asking for her to be more poly. I'm talking of what is already in the game. If they don't gonna remove it, at least make it in a way that makes sense with the character. I'm not asking for extra poly content for her.
But adding content to the game to show that she's poly earlier is making her more poly and in turn makes you wrong for wanting a monogamous relationship with her. Again, that is not what I want and not what 99% of the people that romanced her would want. Just change in game flags so she doesn't do a complete 180 in her personality the second you decide to add Halsin to your party in act 3, that's it.
Well, I simply gave an example, I also said that the 'confection' should be later on (for the same reason you're commenting).
And also, having lots of sexual experience doesn't make anyone poly. Which is what I was trying to say in that example.
I'm just going to casually quote my post from a couple pages ago that lays down the biggest problem with the interactions, because it seems to have been forgotten. The TL:DR is that you can show no interest in Halsin, you can show no interest in the drow twins (other than their backstory) and yet it can lead to the scenario where Halsin and Shadowheart flirt together and then want to have a 5-some and disapprove if you say no.
Inconsistent writing be damned (I still think Selune Shadowheart should be very upset if you want to open up the relationship with Halsin, the drows, or Mizora, based on how she's written otherwise), this interaction needs to be removed entirely. If you decline Halsin, I never want to hear from him again in a sexual way toward me or my romance companion, but instead of that not happening, it happens in such a toxic way that it would lead to divorce in real life.
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
It's actually really bad if you read it all in context. I'll quote the entire conversation from declining Halsin to the Drow scene. Will put it in spoiler tags because it'll be quite some text.
Declining Halsin during long rest:
Halsin: I never quite realised how burdened I was, until I met you. The threat of the shadow curse, the politics of the grove... Halsin: ...I forgot who I was, but you lifted the fog. Thank you. Tav: So the fog's lifted - what have you discovered? Halsin: You. I discovered you. I have lived a very long time. I have taken many lovers. My heart does not stir lightly. But it does now. Tav: What are you saying exactly? Halsin: I want more than to fight at your side, or sit around the campfire with you. I want to lay with you under the stars and feel your skin against mine. Halsin: I think you feel the same way - why else would you have been so concerned about whether I had a lover before? Halsin: But tell me I'm wrong, and the matter can rest. I do not wish to sour our friendship, but I have to know if it can be something more. Tav: If I wanted to rut with half a tonne of dumb muscle, I'd seduce a deep rothé. Halsin: A simple 'no' would have sufficed. I will trouble you with the matter no more.
OR
Tav: I'm afraid I just don't see you that way. Halsin: I understand, and I still cherish our relationship. Halsin: Still... I could not have forgiven myself had I not taken the plunge. Better to have tried and failed.
OR
Tav: I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested - but I'm already in a relationship. Halsin: You have bonded with Shadowheart, body and soul. Her scent lingers on your skin. If there is to be anything between us, it must be with her consent. And perhaps some day, her participation. Tav: I'm sorry - I'm in a relationship. I don't want to jeopardise it. Halsin: I understand, and I still cherish our relationship. Halsin: Still... I could not have forgiven myself had I not taken the plunge. Better to have tried and failed.
A fair exchange I suppose. You can decline him with any of the options, it doesn't matter how you do it, but the second option is the most logical and the third way seemed like the one where it's most clear that you want a mono relationship even if you're forced to admit interest for some reason (why is the second reply regarding the relationship not instead of the first?).
Proceed to the next night where I got the chat with Shadowheart about her still feeling the Shadowfell followed up by the beach scene. I then kick out a companion to add level 1 Halsin to the party.
Few steps into Wyrm's Crossing and the following exchange happens straight away.
Halsin: I heard you learnt how to swim, Shadowheart - well done. Halsin: You know, if you and your love ever wish to enjoy the waters with me, I could attempt a kelpie... or even a porpoise. Shadowheart: Depends, are you buoyant? I may need a life preserver if I get in over my head.
So he straight up hits on Shadowheart after you decline him, knowing full well you want no part in it based on previous exchange. Good writing!
Then you get to the Drow twins:
Sorn Orlith: A new face! Looking for another chapter of dirty lore for your biography? Nym Orlith: You have but to ask, and we can grant you a moment of pleasure. Nym Orlith: Don't be shy. Halsin: An intriguing pair. Takes me back to my youth... Tav: How did you end up here? Sorn Orlith: I used to work as a courtesan back home, and my sister as an artisanal masseuse, but men are treated like dogs by the Underdark's matriarchs, so we fled. Nym Orlith: We found surfacers crave the body of a Drow like a drug. Life is easy in our line of work. Tav: Don't you want a change? Nym Orlith: Perhaps once we have saved more gold another adventure will begin. We've had busier days, but life is comfortable here with Mamzell. Tav: I'm glad you've found a place you feel safe. Sorn Orlith: I'd have to restrain myself far more than any play-bindings do if I worked in another field. This is a place where I can be myself boundlessly. Sorn Orlith: There are so many who come to me speaking of a fixation that no one else has ever been able to shaer with them... and never will again. Sorn Orlith: A once in-a-lifetime moment of passion. Every day. What could be better? Don't you want to try it? Sorn Orlith: Trust me, you don't want to miss my signature Menzoberranzan Love Trick. Nym Orlith: And is that your partner with you? What a gorgeous couple... perhaps we could come to an agreement. Tav: Agreement? What kind of agreement? Nym Orlith: We want both of you, silly! At the same time. Shadowheart: There's an idea. If you're comfortable sharing... so am I. Tav: Great, let's do it. Halsin: Perhaps you'd care for a little extra company... Shadowheart: I won't pretend the thought hasn't crossed my mind once or twice... or more than that. Tav: No, Halsin! Tame yourself! Halsin: As you wish. I'm sure I can find berth elsewhere...
Proceed by having both of them disapprove. It's actually quite unnerving seeing it in full context. You make no push toward it, just merely asking questions to the Drows, Shadowheart suddenly pops up showing interest (why???), which can make you feel pressured into accepting. Then Halsin pops up despite your wishes and when you decline they're both unhappy with it? It's 100% written in a way that implies that Shadowheart has a thing for Halsin regardless of how Tav (you) roleplay about it, and shows Halsin as a super pushy sex addict that doesn't take no for an answer and will actively try ruin your relationship.
Inconsistent writing be damned (I still think Selune Shadowheart should be very upset if you want to open up the relationship with Halsin, the drows, or Mizora, based on how she's written otherwise), this interaction needs to be removed entirely. If you decline Halsin, I never want to hear from him again in a sexual way toward me or my romance companion, but instead of that not happening, it happens in such a toxic way that it would lead to divorce in real life.
Agreed. But I don't think they'll remove that interaction. Because either we like or not, SH is poly (well, not poly but is attracted to Halsin). She and Astarion are Halsin's potential poly partners, and I don't think they'll change that. I think those interactions should be there for people that want them, but there should be a way to avoid them for the rest of us that don't.
That's why I was trying to 'make sense/giving a backstory' to those scenarios with SH.
What I think is a MUST is them checking out the banter/flirting dialogues between companions. In my humble opinion, after you unlocked the 2nd romance scene they should completely stop. And of course, if you decline Halsin, he MUST stop right there and then.
I think they adding poly was a mistake, but that's just my opinion.
Edit: I'm not in favor of the twins scene. I think it should be there, but the whole scene should be tweaked in a way that doesn't portray SH being more attracted to Halsin than Tav.
It doesn't matter if she's poly or not. If it were up to me, she'd be written to be disappointed and threaten to break up with you in the Halsin/drows (even without Halsin there)/Mizora situations. Because that's how she's been written otherwise.
However, player choice should matter. If you decide to not open up poly, she shouldn't do it for you. The interaction is free to stay if you accept Halsin and they don't change her reaction, in fact it'd be unfair if it didn't happen. But it should, like you said, never trigger if you decline Halsin. That's what I want removed first and foremost.
As it stands, she's not only inconsistently written to be okay with poly, but she is, if you bring Halsin along, also the one that actively initiates it even if you declined Halsin beforehand.
Dreams no. That's just life. get upset with you that you won't have an orgy, when you have stated that you don't want your partner touching anyone else? I don't know if it's strange, but I am RA and I would consider that a serious breach that needed to be discussed - at length!
I think calling it upset may be stretching it. It's not like she throws a fit, I'd say disappointment maybe more accurately describes it.
But I'd backtrack a bit further to where they start talking about this like I am not even there and are like halfway through foreplay before I even get a chance to say how I feel about it. There would be words and someone would be getting the ice queen treatment and sleeping on their own until it was resolved.
Damn, I just created the account because I couldn’t stand inconsistencies in game and reading this full thread was super interesting. First, Halsin is super creepy, but I didn’t know to what extent before reading all of it here. My Tav was a girl and suddenly this guy I hardly kept in party hits on me, even though through the whole game I was mono with SH. I explored his dialogue and his “your skin smells if her” is not okay, like what the hell, were you sniffing me?? He’s like this weird creepy guy who when sees two girls thinks about threesome. Reading here more about the banter broke character for me even more.
So Shadowheart - I read her as not polyamorous (hence no possibility of romancig two companions with her), but okay with opening relationship only, and only sexually. And it’s okay, that’s her, as long as the main romantic attachment is safe and good. Her upbringing/training would explain that, but again - only if main romantic partner is trustworthy. And here comes inconsistency - from dialogues with her it shows that she’s not so sure about relationship with Tav (asking three times if you want to spent life together during different occasions). Lack of conversation about the relationship (whether it’s open, poly etc) makes Halsin interactions so weird and creepy. And she is only little bit angry at Mizora fling or even (another very weird interaction) makes no comment about Harleep if Tav decides to pursue it. Like, no, that’s not okay, if the player goes this way (and there’s no reaction from her) it makes whole Shadowheart a weird fetish story about “broken sad girl in pain”, not a fully grown, troubled person with bright future she could be. Is Halsin just a sexual fascination or is there more going on? That puts the player in a very weird and uncomfortable position, and as I’ve read, could be trigerring (although lots of things can, but that’s a different topic).
Anyway, either make Halsin mute or give SH a line describing or asking about the nature of relationship she has with Tav, it should all be consented.
And here comes inconsistency - from dialogues with her it shows that she’s not so sure about relationship with Tav (asking three times if you want to spent life together during different occasions).
I think you're very much misinterpreting this. It's not that she's unsure about the relationship but she has some serious self-esteem issues based on a lot of her dialogue in act 3. So she asks you to confirm it so many times because she's worried about you changing your mind about wanting to be with her not that she doesn't want to be with you.
I see you going for the mistake that all of us have already done and try to make it cohesive and consistent somehow.
Save yourself the trouble, it's simply bad writing and scripting as a result of this being shoehorned in as an afterthought because they decided to include poly and swinger sex. It's just as inconsistent with Astarion and Gale. It was written as fan service for people who wanted to have a thing with Shadowheart and Halsin together (evident through the complete lack of foreshadowing in act 1 and 2 when everything else in her story is clearly signalled in previous events and the fact that non-romance Shadowheart and Halsin show literally no interest in each other) and they are the ones who will just have to suspend their belief to ignore all the inconsistencies when playing through it.
Agree with everything you wrote, but you misinterpreted this:
Originally Posted by Salome
And here comes inconsistency - from dialogues with her it shows that she’s not so sure about relationship with Tav (asking three times if you want to spent life together during different occasions).
She asks that not because she doesn't like/love Tav, but because she doesn't think she is good enough for Tav, she even says "I don't know what i did to trick you into thinking i was worthy of you, but i'm glad it worked."
She is insecure, almost broken after everything that happens to her, so her agreeing to orgies and swinging sex is even more weird and creepy, don't know what the writer thought.
Damn, I just created the account because I couldn’t stand inconsistencies in game and reading this full thread was super interesting. First, Halsin is super creepy, but I didn’t know to what extent before reading all of it here. My Tav was a girl and suddenly this guy I hardly kept in party hits on me, even though through the whole game I was mono with SH. I explored his dialogue and his “your skin smells if her” is not okay, like what the hell, were you sniffing me?? He’s like this weird creepy guy who when sees two girls thinks about threesome. Reading here more about the banter broke character for me even more.
So Shadowheart - I read her as not polyamorous (hence no possibility of romancig two companions with her), but okay with opening relationship only, and only sexually. And it’s okay, that’s her, as long as the main romantic attachment is safe and good. Her upbringing/training would explain that, but again - only if main romantic partner is trustworthy. And here comes inconsistency - from dialogues with her it shows that she’s not so sure about relationship with Tav (asking three times if you want to spent life together during different occasions). Lack of conversation about the relationship (whether it’s open, poly etc) makes Halsin interactions so weird and creepy. And she is only little bit angry at Mizora fling or even (another very weird interaction) makes no comment about Harleep if Tav decides to pursue it. Like, no, that’s not okay, if the player goes this way (and there’s no reaction from her) it makes whole Shadowheart a weird fetish story about “broken sad girl in pain”, not a fully grown, troubled person with bright future she could be. Is Halsin just a sexual fascination or is there more going on? That puts the player in a very weird and uncomfortable position, and as I’ve read, could be trigerring (although lots of things can, but that’s a different topic).
Anyway, either make Halsin mute or give SH a line describing or asking about the nature of relationship she has with Tav, it should all be consented.
I agree mostly, except her not being so sure about relationship with Tav. She says first that she wants to be with your Tav and then asks if you wish the same(Post nightfell she straight up says that she thought that her faith is the most important thing in her life and she couldnt be more wrong and she wants to be with Tav now and always and then asks if you wish the same. Lower city dream she again first says that she wants to share her "life" with your Tav), she also calls your Tav her true love. At the end she says that she doesnt even deserve you(or at least thats what she thinks).I guess it all makes sense in that case? I really like her story and romance, except for that Halsin thing and I guess lack of option to hug/comfort her after house of grief.
And here comes inconsistency - from dialogues with her it shows that she’s not so sure about relationship with Tav (asking three times if you want to spent life together during different occasions).
I think you're very much misinterpreting this. It's not that she's unsure about the relationship but she has some serious self-esteem issues based on a lot of her dialogue in act 3. So she asks you to confirm it so many times because she's worried about you changing your mind about wanting to be with her not that she doesn't want to be with you.
That’s exactly what I meant but maybe worded it badly - my point is, her self esteem is low, she feels she is undeserving this relation, and then she’s okay with opening relationship? That’s inconsistent, if she wants to open it, it should be when she is secure, not when still being so unsure and lost.
Ninja, you are right, I’m just kind of sad after witnessing great game with amazing characters and heartfelt scenes, acted very well and then comes Halsin and weird stuff..
Yeah, I felt so bad without option to hug her. Again, I meant that she expresses feelings toward Tav, but it feels like she’s still not sure what Tav thinks about her or if they love her. I understand second time, the one with dream home, but asking again during epilogue? Like girl, we just saved the whole city, you were there with me and you’re still not sure if we are a thing (selune good ending option). That for me means that she really doesn’t feel secure in relationship with Tav and make swing/poly things even weirder.
Yeah, I felt so bad without option to hug her. Again, I meant that she expresses feelings toward Tav, but it feels like she’s still not sure what Tav thinks about her or if they love her. I understand second time, the one with dream home, but asking again during epilogue? Like girl, we just save whole city, you were there with me and you’re still not sure if we are a thing? That for me means that she really doesn’t feel secure in relationship with Tav and make swing/poly things even weirder.
She could've been more secure in the ending sure, but she is still lost and broken after things that happened during house of grief encounter so it is somewhat understandable to me(She expresses herself better if she releases parents imo, you can see how much "happier" she becomes if you say that you stay with her).
“I will the save spot for you” is a really weird sentence for the last thing in game lol. But seriously, I’m okay with her being still broken and in the midst of healing, it takes time etc, but all of her experiences, that are really hard are in total juxtaposition (for me) with Halsin stuff. There’s a tone and character change and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
“I will the save spot for you” is a really weird sentence for the last thing in game lol. But seriously, I’m okay with her being still broken and in the midst of healing, it takes time etc, but all of her experiences, that are really hard are in total juxtaposition (for me) with Halsin stuff. There’s a tone and character change and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Yeah I HATE the discrepancy between the endings of saving her parents and letting them go. What do you mean when I have time? What could my character possibly need to do that's more important than immediately leaving with the person you've told 3 separate times that you want to spend your life with them? Weirder still her father also comments about you being her lover and that when the three of them settle down he expects it to be with you at her side. And then you compare it to the endings where her parents die you can immediately continue being with her none of this seek me out when you have time nonsense and even in the ending when you become a mind flayer and her parents are alive you immediately move in with her with her saying she'll convince her parents that it's okay. It makes absolutely zero sense.
“I will the save spot for you” is a really weird sentence for the last thing in game lol. But seriously, I’m okay with her being still broken and in the midst of healing, it takes time etc, but all of her experiences, that are really hard are in total juxtaposition (for me) with Halsin stuff. There’s a tone and character change and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Ye her reaction in the ending where parents are alive is weird tbh. Halsin stuff is supposed to be before entering lower city and house of grief anyway I think, doesnt change the fact that they are extremely frustrating(at least for majority in this thread) or questionable.
“I will the save spot for you” is a really weird sentence for the last thing in game lol. But seriously, I’m okay with her being still broken and in the midst of healing, it takes time etc, but all of her experiences, that are really hard are in total juxtaposition (for me) with Halsin stuff. There’s a tone and character change and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Yeah I HATE the discrepancy between the endings of saving her parents and letting them go. What do you mean when I have time? What could my character possibly need to do that's more important than immediately leaving with the person you've told 3 separate times that you want to spend your life with them? Weirder still her father also comments about you being her lover and that when the three of them settle down he expects it to be with you at her side. And then you compare it to the endings where her parents die you can immediately continue being with her none of this seek me out when you have time nonsense and even in the ending when you become a mind flayer and her parents are alive you immediately move in with her with her saying she'll convince her parents that it's okay. It makes absolutely zero sense.
You know what, I just realised it could be worse. Imagine coming to their home (with dog and owlbear and unhatched gith egg I swore that I’ll raise as my heir) and then seeing Halsin there being first lol. That would be the ultimate worst ending.
“I will the save spot for you” is a really weird sentence for the last thing in game lol. But seriously, I’m okay with her being still broken and in the midst of healing, it takes time etc, but all of her experiences, that are really hard are in total juxtaposition (for me) with Halsin stuff. There’s a tone and character change and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Yeah I HATE the discrepancy between the endings of saving her parents and letting them go. What do you mean when I have time? What could my character possibly need to do that's more important than immediately leaving with the person you've told 3 separate times that you want to spend your life with them? Weirder still her father also comments about you being her lover and that when the three of them settle down he expects it to be with you at her side. And then you compare it to the endings where her parents die you can immediately continue being with her none of this seek me out when you have time nonsense and even in the ending when you become a mind flayer and her parents are alive you immediately move in with her with her saying she'll convince her parents that it's okay. It makes absolutely zero sense.
You know what, I just realised it could be worse. Imagine coming to their home (with dog and owlbear and unhatched gith egg I swore that I’ll raise as my heir) and then seeing Halsin there being first lol. That would be the ultimate worst ending.
Well that's just a stupid way to look at it if you ask me. You can go the entire game without her saying anything about Halsin and you're worried he'd be there when your character shows up? I want this shit changed as much as anybody but people implying that she cares more about Halsin than your character really irritates me when it could not be further from the truth.
“I will the save spot for you” is a really weird sentence for the last thing in game lol. But seriously, I’m okay with her being still broken and in the midst of healing, it takes time etc, but all of her experiences, that are really hard are in total juxtaposition (for me) with Halsin stuff. There’s a tone and character change and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Yeah I HATE the discrepancy between the endings of saving her parents and letting them go. What do you mean when I have time? What could my character possibly need to do that's more important than immediately leaving with the person you've told 3 separate times that you want to spend your life with them? Weirder still her father also comments about you being her lover and that when the three of them settle down he expects it to be with you at her side. And then you compare it to the endings where her parents die you can immediately continue being with her none of this seek me out when you have time nonsense and even in the ending when you become a mind flayer and her parents are alive you immediately move in with her with her saying she'll convince her parents that it's okay. It makes absolutely zero sense.
You know what, I just realised it could be worse. Imagine coming to their home (with dog and owlbear and unhatched gith egg I swore that I’ll raise as my heir) and then seeing Halsin there being first lol. That would be the ultimate worst ending.
And what's really funny nobody even made a comment about his death.
Also his body magically appeared in the camp, also no comments.
It just happened to me a few minutes ago, The dude is so creepy that even after I've killed him in the Goblin Camp, he decided to show up dead the day after the party when I rested. Talk about not accepting a no, even when dead. XD
Aside from that, I came to believe that he's just the Mary Sue version in this game, Just saying
You know, the way this game is designed, I am surprised there was no necrophilia lust going on (Kidding! I do not want that!)
I am afraid to tell you that there is in fact a comment regarding necrophilia in the game. Spoiler says when/where.
When you kill Alfira as Dark Urge, your butler will show up in a long rest later and you can have a chat with him. If you choose dialogue indicating you're happy and embrace the urges, the butler will gleefully proclaim that necrophilia will be back on the menu in no time, meaning that your Dark Urge Tav was a necrophile before the amnesia. You are literally the worst person in camp, by a long shot.
You know, the way this game is designed, I am surprised there was no necrophilia lust going on (Kidding! I do not want that!)
I am afraid to tell you that there is in fact a comment regarding necrophilia in the game. Spoiler says
good job Larian in our camp there is still a dog and 2 little girls, at different times. I will follow the news. Not the whole set of perversions has been collected yet. Topic healthy necrophilia and something like that soon.
Yeah I HATE the discrepancy between the endings of saving her parents and letting them go. What do you mean when I have time? What could my character possibly need to do that's more important than immediately leaving with the person you've told 3 separate times that you want to spend your life with them? Weirder still her father also comments about you being her lover and that when the three of them settle down he expects it to be with you at her side. And then you compare it to the endings where her parents die you can immediately continue being with her none of this seek me out when you have time nonsense and even in the ending when you become a mind flayer and her parents are alive you immediately move in with her with her saying she'll convince her parents that it's okay. It makes absolutely zero sense.
The bigger problem for me is the discrepancy between her interactions leading up to the final battle and the endings. Her wanting us to scrub her back in a bath and being generally super wholesome (that last, last kiss interaction is just mega cute) and confident. She no longer sounds insecure there, giving her that character development needed after the House of Grief situation. Then the ending takes it all away again.
Yeah I HATE the discrepancy between the endings of saving her parents and letting them go. What do you mean when I have time? What could my character possibly need to do that's more important than immediately leaving with the person you've told 3 separate times that you want to spend your life with them? Weirder still her father also comments about you being her lover and that when the three of them settle down he expects it to be with you at her side. And then you compare it to the endings where her parents die you can immediately continue being with her none of this seek me out when you have time nonsense and even in the ending when you become a mind flayer and her parents are alive you immediately move in with her with her saying she'll convince her parents that it's okay. It makes absolutely zero sense.
The bigger problem for me is the discrepancy between her interactions leading up to the final battle and the endings. Her wanting us to scrub her back in a bath and being generally super wholesome (that last, last kiss interaction is just mega cute) and confident. She no longer sounds insecure there, giving her that character development needed after the House of Grief situation. Then the ending takes it all away again.
Her
parents alive
is strange, but her
parents released
ending is good in a sense where you can feel her sorrow and insecurity but she really relieves when you say that she can always stay by your side.
IMO I don't think Halsin should be able to woo or romance etc any of our other companions, I think it would have been better if he branched out somewhere else. Would have felt less intrusive to our own. Shadowheart is written contradictory imo, and I think this was just a bone given to the crappy poly salivating lovers. But that's just me...
Thank you for posting this! I felt this way for a LONG time. Larian said companions would be "player sexual" and NOT "player and Halsin, and everyone else sexual". Why make Shadowheart LUST after other companions when you're in a committed relationship?? I get having a Poly option for people that want it - that's fine. But it should be DRIVEN by the Player, not written in the subtext of the whole Romance.
Basically, it just sucks the way they currently wrote it. Shadowheart's hidden (or not so hidden thanks to the internet) fetish really ruins her character.
It's like they decided they couldn't keep the Shadowheart romance the satisfying "slow-burn romance" they advertised. It was so perfect the way it was - a long period of building trust, learning about her, she slowly opens up more and more, and only after 80-100 hours of gameplay do you have your big moment with her. It is so powerfully intimate. It means something because she is sharing herself with you when she was so "hard to get" in Acts 1-2. It's a scene that rewards the player for their dedication and diligence - turning down other "quick sex" options that many of the others offer - to be with HER. "No, I want you - Shadowheart - because I know what we have is special. And you agree!"
Shadowheart talks about how much you mean to her. How special your relationship is.... oh but she'll totally have sex with Halsin and has been "DREAMING" about it. Like, seriously - WTF?? And for a guy that preaches about Consent and Honest conversation, Halsin is quick to try and worm his way into your relationship. Turning him down is of no avail - he and Shadowheart are just itching to have sex with each other. They flirt with each other - even encroaching on your swimming moment with Shadowheart with their dialogue. If you talk to the drow prostitutes, even just out of curiosity - Halsin and Shadowheart gang up on you and BEG you to let them have a 5-some. Say "no" and you're SMACKED with Disapproval from BOTH of them. If you do agree, you basically enter a Porno where you're a cuck sitting in a chair while your "friend" rails your girlfriend. Talk about a bait and switch!!
And you have really no say in any of this, again, because turning Halsin down does NOT change his behavior. And you can't establish boundaries with Shadowheart in any way. Your options are to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist or be met with a companion that is so eager to have sex with others that it is offputting in the extreme. A character, mind, that just a little bit ago wanted to settle down with you and said that you're her True Love.
So yeah, I really wish they would make these optional things MORE optional. As in, if I don't want a poly relationship - DONT FORCE ONE ON ME by making my otherwise excellent companion a horndong who wants to have sex with anything that moves. At least let me establish boundaries with her. Let me tell her that "No, dear - we're not opening our relationship" and Shadowheart (who says she loves you) should stand by you in that decision. And then the characters should HONOR this CHOICE. This choice should mean that - Halsin shouldn't be flirting with her, Shadowheart shouldn't be looking to hook up with prostitutes or lusting after Mount Halsin, and Cheating on her should be met with disgust and disdain and have severe consequences.
It's like they decided they couldn't keep the Shadowheart romance the satisfying "slow-burn romance" they advertised. It was so perfect the way it was - a long period of building trust, learning about her, she slowly opens up more and more, and only after 80-100 hours of gameplay do you have your big moment with her. It is so powerfully intimate. It means something because she is sharing herself with you when she was so "hard to get" in Acts 1-2. It's a scene that rewards the player for their dedication and diligence - turning down other "quick sex" options that many of the others offer - to be with HER. "No, I want you - Shadowheart - because I know what we have is special. And you agree!"
Agree. I started my first playthrough with my friends, never expected to be engaged in romance or anything like that, we were just goofing around. I actually randomly had enough approval so she invited me to share a bottle at tiefling party. I decided to play it out(similarly 1 of my friends got Gale randomly and the other one was specifically pursuing Karlach romance from the start). But holy shit I liked her build up and story so much. It was such a cool slow burn. I was actually shocked what she decided to do in shadowfell(we reloaded there many times, I assumed she d stab the Aylin, so we tried to get a crit on persuasion. I was barbarian with 8 charisma, so. I just gave up and let her do her thing to see if I can convince her otherwise, but she just thrown the spear away?because of me?) and what she said after it was just heartwarming to me. I think it is very out of character for her and ruins her story a bit. I have no problem about her flirting here and there, but Halsin/Shadowheart banter after swim scene is just...questionable. How would he even know about that if thats supposed to be high-intimacy moment(is he spying in wildshape or something?creepy) and Shadowheart is very "playful" in that banter. Him in sharess caress is another nail, dont respect player's choice rejecting you Halsin, ye hit me with disapproval both(or let me just sit in a corner and enjoy the show alternatively), why not. If anything, Shar route Shadowheart fits more in this situation with Halsin with her general attitude and "fleetness". In the end I only hope that this is just a Halsin bug and not an actual writing.
The worst part for me is that if you go to drow twins and ask them what arrangement they have in mind (sure you can say it should be pretty obvious what they mean, but still) its shadowheart that says: "Thats an idea, if you are comfortable in sharing so am I" If you agree and have Halsin in your party he will ask to join and if you refuse him you get dissaproval message from shadowheart, even if you previously denied Halsin offer of poly. Like wtf is this? Shadowheart is the only female romance option that is slow burn, doesnt lead to sleeping together until act 3, and she is the one that is not only open for orgy, but straight up dissaproves if you refuse? Let's look at her romance for a second: the most you can get from her until act 3 is a kiss. She ask like 3 times through the game if you want to be with her at the end (ending of act 2, act 3 when she talks about future on the farm, and epilogue if you destroy the brain). She straight up says that she never belived she could have real family or real love, which all point out that she is really insecure, and fear/expect abandonment, but then she is the one that acts enthusiastic about orgy? Saying its a good idea, if you are okay with it? (Again, if you just ask drow twins questions she is the one that wants it, you don't need to choose dialogue that is about hiring them)
It's like reverse Lae'zel romance, that starts as casual sex but ends up in her wanting MC only for herself for the rest of life, but you know the difference? There is a build up to Lae'zel attitude change, but there is 0 to shadowheart. If you sleep with any other companion she will end your relation, not wanting to be a spare lover, but suddenly in act 3 she is fine with it? Why? If anything she should be even less okay with it if she abandons Shar that prohibited having lasting relationships. SH/Halsin stuff is more suited for dark path shadowheart but i don't think its even possible then because you won't have a swimming scene (correct me if i'm wrong)
If her dialogue would come up only after you say you want to hire drows, the it would be a different story (but you just need to ask what arrangment you have in mind, I know, its a brothel, so that question might be kinda dumb, but still) . Kinda like Astarion, he act like he is fine with it, but if you listen to narrator he is not, he just put on an act to please you, and it makes MC an asshole for not taking into consideration his past traumas.
Also the epilogue, if she is STILL after everything unsure if you will stay with her in the end, then I don't see how her being not only fine but entusiastic about bringing other people into relation makes any sense
And by the love of Selûne the disapproval message if you reject Halsin in drow scene is disgusting if you want to make sense of it and not just say its bad writing, it's like SH is not fine with being a spare lover but is okay with you being a spare lover for her.
It's like reverse Lae'zel romance, that starts as casual sex but ends up in her wanting MC only for herself for the rest of life
I think they made this very intentional. Lae'zel the 'easiest' companion, it's in fact the one that is more loyal/respectful to the player. Meanwhile, Shadowheart the 'hardest to get is... well, you have seen the interaction yourself.
Is a sick joke.
I never finished SH romance and I never will (and never will let Halsin alive). Romances in this game are disgusting (for what I've read), the only one it'll ever finish is Bae'zel.
I would like that those hidden side of companions are introduced one way or the other to the player. So that way the player knows what he's choosing. In real life, you never get to a person 100% but I don't want those experiences in a 60 dollar game.
Either we like it or not SH approves (probably likes and had participated before) orgies. Player should know this beforehand. And for the love of God, don't make her salivate for Halsin, it looks that she's more attracted to him than Tav (though some people get mad it you say so, it seems).
And it's funny because if there's a companion you wouldn't want this to happen is Shadowheart, you know, the trickery domain cleric, it can easily be seem as if she was manipulating Tav (though, again, some people might get mad if you say so). But at the same time you can see why they choose her (and Astarion) to be Halsin's possible poly partners, they are the 2 most attractive companions. Simple. But all this is just my opinion, I might be wrong.
At the end of the day. I choose to believe they f*cked up her romance by mistake.
It's like reverse Lae'zel romance, that starts as casual sex but ends up in her wanting MC only for herself for the rest of life
I think they made this very intentional. Lae'zel the 'easiest' companion, it's in fact the one that is more loyal/respectful to the player. Meanwhile, Shadowheart the 'hardest to get is... well, you have seen the interaction yourself.
Is a sick joke.
I never finished SH romance and I never will (and never will let Halsin alive). Romances in this game are disgusting (for what I've read), the only one it'll ever finish is Bae'zel.
I would like that those hidden side of companions are introduced one way or the other to the player. So that way the player knows what he's choosing. In real life, you never get to a person 100% but I don't want those experiences in a 60 dollar game.
Either we like it or not SH approves (probably likes and had participated before) orgies. Player should know this beforehand. And for the love of God, don't make her salivate for Halsin, it looks that she's more attracted to him than Tav (though some people get mad it you say so, it seems).
And it's funny because if there's a companion you wouldn't want this to happen is Shadowheart, you know, the trickery domain cleric, it can easily be seem as if she was manipulating Tav (though, again, some people might get mad if you say so). But at the same time you can see why they choose her (and Astarion) to be Halsin's possible poly partners, they are the 2 most attractive companions. Simple. But all this is just my opinion, I might be wrong.
At the end of the day. I choose to believe they f*cked up her romance by mistake.
Theory about manipulation is kinda meh since she literally throws spear away in nightfell for your character(only your relationship matter). It has to be bug or some fuck up in writing with all this Halsin situation. Otherwise her romance is very sweet till the end.
It's like reverse Lae'zel romance, that starts as casual sex but ends up in her wanting MC only for herself for the rest of life
I think they made this very intentional. Lae'zel the 'easiest' companion, it's in fact the one that is more loyal/respectful to the player. Meanwhile, Shadowheart the 'hardest to get is... well, you have seen the interaction yourself.
Is a sick joke.
I never finished SH romance and I never will (and never will let Halsin alive). Romances in this game are disgusting (for what I've read), the only one it'll ever finish is Bae'zel.
I would like that those hidden side of companions are introduced one way or the other to the player. So that way the player knows what he's choosing. In real life, you never get to a person 100% but I don't want those experiences in a 60 dollar game.
Either we like it or not SH approves (probably likes and had participated before) orgies. Player should know this beforehand. And for the love of God, don't make her salivate for Halsin, it looks that she's more attracted to him than Tav (though some people get mad it you say so, it seems).
And it's funny because if there's a companion you wouldn't want this to happen is Shadowheart, you know, the trickery domain cleric, it can easily be seem as if she was manipulating Tav (though, again, some people might get mad if you say so). But at the same time you can see why they choose her (and Astarion) to be Halsin's possible poly partners, they are the 2 most attractive companions. Simple. But all this is just my opinion, I might be wrong.
At the end of the day. I choose to believe they f*cked up her romance by mistake.
Theory about manipulation is kinda meh since she literally throws spear away in nightfell for your character(only your relationship matter). It has to be bug or some fuck up in writing with all this Halsin situation. Otherwise her romance is very sweet till the end.
This. I've done the Nightsong scene where I killed my character so she does it solo and just murders the Nightsong with no hesitation. Compare that to when you're in the scene with her and she will throw the spear away even if you don't say anything so you're definitely a strong influence in that decision. In fact maybe the only reason she did threw the spear away at all knowing that Shar does not allow love.
This. I've done the Nightsong scene where I killed my character so she does it solo and just murders the Nightsong with no hesitation. Compare that to when you're in the scene with her and she will throw the spear away even if you don't say anything so you're definitely a strong influence in that decision. In fact maybe the only reason she did threw the spear away at all knowing that Shar does not allow love.
And instantly says that she wants to be with your Tav now and always. Literally betrays Shar, dont think there are any manipulations going on here.
Nah Shadowheart is not manipulating the MC (lets not give Beans a heart attack ) its just bad writing. Her story/romance progression is basically this. (a joke)
I'm being secretive don't talk to me - You are kinda interesting - I think I really like you - I'm willing to betray my god for you - Our first time being intimate has to be special - You're the love of my life I want to spend the rest of it with you - Hi Halsin :*
I think they made this very intentional. Lae'zel the 'easiest' companion, it's in fact the one that is more loyal/respectful to the player. Meanwhile, Shadowheart the 'hardest to get is... well, you have seen the interaction yourself.
That and the Mizora situations are the only times she strays from her romance story otherwise. It's still worth finishing really, just don't bring Halsin into your party, go to the drows or cheat on her. It may lack a bit in content in act 3 but all of them do, it's wholesome regardless.
Originally Posted by NeedaUserName
Either we like it or not SH approves (probably likes and had participated before) orgies. Player should know this beforehand. And for the love of God, don't make her salivate for Halsin, it looks that she's more attracted to him than Tav (though some people get mad it you say so, it seems).
The only time that's hinted at is in the only two scenarios that don't make sense. She doesn't ever claim sleeping around casually was the norm and encouraged in the Sharran cloister except if you sleep with Mizora, and we know she doesn't act in character if you sleep with Mizora so anything written there is just written to make these two inconsistencies (Halsin/Mizora) make more sense.
If she was into casual sex and orgies, she should've been written as such. Any attempt to get her to do anything in act 1 or 2 is rebuked with her saying she'll take her chances waiting. She's even embarrassed about her attraction to you if you read her mind in act 1, allowing you to give a more wholesome reply than just "lets have sex lol". And all of this is despite it making most sense during act 1, because you're in a life or death situation (death by combat or ceremorphosis both being a serious threat) and her still being fully devoted to Shar and thus devoted to the teachings, including the casual sex part.
However, even if that were true (it is hinted at during some Gale/Shadowheart banter in act 1 that she prefers one night stands, which is consistent with her dialogue if you kill the Nightsong, though it's evident it's not encouraged but if anything looked down upon by Shar), it still wouldn't make sense she never acts upon it until the point where she no longer believes in Shar but believes in you instead. It should've happened in act 1 then. But that's not how she's written, therefore the act 3 scenarios are inconsistent, even with the rest of her act 3 romance.
Originally Posted by NeedaUserName
And it's funny because if there's a companion you wouldn't want this to happen is Shadowheart, you know, the trickery domain cleric, it can easily be seem as if she was manipulating Tav (though, again, some people might get mad if you say so).
As Dark Urge she claims you were the one who convinced her to spare the Nightsong. This means that you convinced her to betray Shar, the goddess that set her upon a path of lying and manipulating in the first place. If she were ever doing it, the jig is up at that point, and she's fully devoted to you, trusting that you can lead her to a better future than Shar, a literal goddess, could. This remains consistent throughout act 3, where she remains fully devoted to you all the way to the end. She even stays with you if you're a mindflayer. All this love, trust and devotion she gives you makes her claim that she wasn't surprised you'd cheat on her with Mizora complete nonsense. On the one hand she says she has full faith in you, wants to start a family with you and be with you forever and suddenly, in a single scenario that strays from all the other ones, she says she expected you to cheat on her. And it makes her not just being okay with, but actively wanting to share you make no sense either, because the only time that would logically happen would be in act 1 and 2, where she is still devoted to Shar, if they want to keep that narrative. But she isn't, she's against it then already.
It's like reverse Lae'zel romance, that starts as casual sex but ends up in her wanting MC only for herself for the rest of life
I think they made this very intentional. Lae'zel the 'easiest' companion, it's in fact the one that is more loyal/respectful to the player. Meanwhile, Shadowheart the 'hardest to get is... well, you have seen the interaction yourself.
Is a sick joke.
I never finished SH romance and I never will (and never will let Halsin alive). Romances in this game are disgusting (for what I've read), the only one it'll ever finish is Bae'zel.
I would like that those hidden side of companions are introduced one way or the other to the player. So that way the player knows what he's choosing. In real life, you never get to a person 100% but I don't want those experiences in a 60 dollar game.
Either we like it or not SH approves (probably likes and had participated before) orgies. Player should know this beforehand. And for the love of God, don't make her salivate for Halsin, it looks that she's more attracted to him than Tav (though some people get mad it you say so, it seems).
And it's funny because if there's a companion you wouldn't want this to happen is Shadowheart, you know, the trickery domain cleric, it can easily be seem as if she was manipulating Tav (though, again, some people might get mad if you say so). But at the same time you can see why they choose her (and Astarion) to be Halsin's possible poly partners, they are the 2 most attractive companions. Simple. But all this is just my opinion, I might be wrong.
At the end of the day. I choose to believe they f*cked up her romance by mistake.
She says that it was encourage to get to know each other when you cheat on her with Mizora, but before that, I'm not sure if that was act 2 or act 3, she says that it was PROHIBITED, but some cultist would still find the way to meet each other. So she is either lying in Mizora after scene (which would be in character, she doesnt want to show she is hurt by you cheating) or writer kinda forgot how he wrote her in previous dialogues . And on her dark path romance she says that the only way you can see each other is in secrecy, because bending the rules is kinda fine.
And about romances being disgusting, Karlach, Wyll, Lae'zel are all very wholesome (not sure about Gale, and Astarion kinda depends), one of them even ends in marriage
She says that it was encourage to get to know each other when you cheat on her with Mizora, but before that, I'm not sure if that was act 2 or act 3, she says that it was PROHIBITED, but some cultist would still find the way to meet each other. So she is either lying in Mizora after scene (which would be in character, she doesnt want to show she is hurt by you cheating) or writer kinda forgot how he wrote her in previous dialogues . And on her dark path romance she says that the only way you can see each other is in secrecy, because bending the rules is kinda fine.
And about romances being disgusting, Karlach, Wyll, Lae'zel are all very wholesome (not sure about Gale, and Astarion kinda depends), one of them even ends in marriage
I mean Shadowheart romance is very wholesome for my taste. Its just that 1 thing connected to Halsin, which is reason why this thread was even created in the first place. I personally view Mizora cheat reaction more like : "I dont like it but I cant afford to lose you", based on her dialogue and reactions she is clearly disappointed and you feel like shit after that.
I mean Shadowheart romance is very wholesome for my taste. Its just that 1 thing connected to Halsin, which is reason why this thread was even created in the first place. I personally view Mizora cheat reaction more like : "I dont like it but I cant afford to lose you", based on her dialogue and reactions she is clearly disappointed and you feel like shit after that.
She sounds too okay with the cheating part and only sounds not okay with the not asking before part. I also don't buy it that she was expecting it judging by her entire demeanor otherwise - heck, something I didn't mention before, but her father even says she looks at you the same way her mother looked at him, and I doubt they were expecting each other to cheat. And the whole dialogue about it being encouraged in the Sharran cloister is, as has been pointed out, also inaccurate based on previous actions and dialogue.
So basically, there's not many redeeming factors to the writing in that scenario. It just exists in its current state to make the Halsin/drows situation more plausible, but three inaccuracies in a 100 hour story don't make for a good inaccuracy.
To me, these 3 scenarios make about as much sense as playing a full good guy/girl playthrough and then at the very last second stabbing the Emperor/Orpheus/Karlach and taking control of the Netherbrain. Like, "look at me, I spent 100 hours being the best possible person, but SYKE, it was all to betray you at this moment!"
Nah Shadowheart is not manipulating the MC (lets not give Beans a heart attack ) its just bad writing. Her story/romance progression is basically this. (a joke)
I'm being secretive don't talk to me - You are kinda interesting - I think I really like you - I'm willing to betray my god for you - Our first time being intimate has to be special - You're the love of my life I want to spend the rest of it with you - Hi Halsin :*
The 'Hi Halsin' at the end got me laughing. lol
@rokiiz
Quote
She says that it was encourage to get to know each other when you cheat on her with Mizora, but before that, I'm not sure if that was act 2 or act 3, she says that it was PROHIBITED, but some cultist would still find the way to meet each other.
Yes, that's what I meant. I'd like to know that BEFORE cheating.
For example, you were complaining about she being insecure/asking 3 times if Tav wants to be with her. Why don't make that the 2nd time she asks, she'll say something like:
"I'm not as pure as you might think", then proceed to make the revelation.
I've never seem the part where she says it's prohibited, tho.
Quote
And about romances being disgusting, Karlach, Wyll, Lae'zel are all very wholesome (not sure about Gale, and Astarion kinda depends), one of them even ends in marriage
Yeah, I admit it might be a me thing. This is the first game in which I 'romance' and the experience hasn't been pleasant. lol
For example, you were complaining about she being insecure/asking 3 times if Tav wants to be with her. Why don't make that the 2nd time she asks, she'll say something like:
"I'm not as pure as you might thing"
I'd be fine with that, it'd make for a good dialogue with the Dark Urge where you can then also admit to.. certain things in your past. However, the problem remains. Just like Dark Urge, she's an amnesiac, she evidently is no longer that person and was manipulated into it in the first place, the records in the House of Grief state she always strayed from their teachings so they had to repeatedly memory wipe her. So it doesn't make sense to write her - in those few specific scenarios - to suddenly be like that again, especially after all the positive influence you had over her, since it's already written in the game that so long as she has motive to stray from their teachings, she will. Which is very much proven by the fact that she betrays Shar for you.
She would have to be completely rewritten in act 1 for any of this to make sense, which isn't remotely worth it compared to just rewriting the Halsin/drows/Mizora inconsistencies to fit the other multiple hours of her story.
For example, you were complaining about she being insecure/asking 3 times if Tav wants to be with her. Why don't make that the 2nd time she asks, she'll say something like:
"I'm not as pure as you might thing"
I'd be fine with that, it'd make for a good dialogue with the Dark Urge where you can then also admit to.. certain things in your past. However, the problem remains. Just like Dark Urge, she's an amnesiac, she evidently is no longer that person and was manipulated into it in the first place, the records in the House of Grief state she always strayed from their teachings so they had to repeatedly memory wipe her. So it doesn't make sense to write her - in those few specific scenarios - to suddenly be like that again, especially after all the positive influence you had over her, since it's already written in the game that so long as she has motive to stray from their teachings, she will. Which is very much proven by the fact that she betrays Shar for you.
She was getting brainwashed her entire life... But everything points out to that she wants to just be with your character until Halsin incident though? Even in the end she will stay with your character no matter what if you chose so(Squid or not, only if yo u do not finish her quest or chose shar path she leaves).If Halsin thing gets patched out somehow it will be perfect romance at least for me(Again I tolerate Drow thing, because its Tav who initates it and she is ok with that and Mizora seems tolerable, I didnt do any of this anyway).
For example, you were complaining about she being insecure/asking 3 times if Tav wants to be with her. Why don't make that the 2nd time she asks, she'll say something like:
"I'm not as pure as you might thing"
I'd be fine with that, it'd make for a good dialogue with the Dark Urge where you can then also admit to.. certain things in your past. However, the problem remains. Just like Dark Urge, she's an amnesiac, she evidently is no longer that person and was manipulated into it in the first place, the records in the House of Grief state she always strayed from their teachings so they had to repeatedly memory wipe her. So it doesn't make sense to write her - in those few specific scenarios - to suddenly be like that again, especially after all the positive influence you had over her, since it's already written in the game that so long as she has motive to stray from their teachings, she will. Which is very much proven by the fact that she betrays Shar for you.
I think you're wrong about the part of her doesn't remembering, in the Mizora scene she says that even with the little she can remember, she can tell us stories. So, I wouldn't say she doesn't remember. It sounds, if anything, that she got lots of sexual experience.
But to be fair, I'm saying this from the top of my head, and don't got time rn to double check that scene. I may be wrong.
I think you're wrong about the part of her doesn't remembering, in the Mizora scene she says that even with the little she can remember, she can tell us stories. So, I wouldn't say she doesn't remember. It sounds, if anything, that she got lots of sexual experience.
But to be fair, I'm saying this from the top of my head, and don't got time rn to double check that scene. I may be wrong.
I meant that is 1 of the 3 things : 1.) It was encouraged in her cult, however she doesnt show any interest in anyone except your character and Halsin(Again thats why post was created). 2.) She doesnt want to show she is hurt by you cheating, considering her previous actions and her general attitude in that scene this could be the case. 3.) Bad writing All 3 is tolerable and fine things(except for Halsin of course) to me
I think you're wrong about the part of her doesn't remembering, in the Mizora scene she says that even with the little she can remember, she can tell us stories. So, I wouldn't say she doesn't remember. It sounds, if anything, that she got lots of sexual experience.
But to be fair, I'm saying this from the top of my head, and don't got time rn to double check that scene. I may be wrong.
It is mentioned during the Mizora scene, yes. Now, I consider the Mizora dialogue only written to fit the Halsin narrative, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.
But lets assume it is correct, she still only remembers the deeds. What she doesn't remember is that she kept straying, because that is what they kept wiping from her memory; the part of her that didn't want any of it. She was - for all intents and purposes - being
raped
, repeatedly, if we're going to take the Mizora chat as canon. (I think you all know what word is there but some might not want to read it)
If that's what they want to imply, they're free to, I'm not averse of talking about heavy subjects. It still doesn't fit the person she becomes with you throughout the story, therefore she still shouldn't be okay with sharing or you cheating, by the time you get to act 3. Your Dark Urge butler tells you some pretty disturbing things about your own past. The knowledge of you doing those things doesn't make you that person now.
If Tav is not romancing anyone, why can't Tav and Shadowheart have casual sex if Shadowheart is so open to spontaneous and casual sex? It is established in act 1 that she is attracted to Tav, and non-romance Shadowheart isn't even attracted to someone else that she could hook up with (Karlach possibly).
What's stopping Tav and Shadowheart in act 3 from just having a ons if Tav is not involved with anyone else creating any complications or drama?
It's a complete oxymoron: I am open to casual sex, but only if I am already in a relationship. If I am single I am not.
I think you're wrong about the part of her doesn't remembering, in the Mizora scene she says that even with the little she can remember, she can tell us stories. So, I wouldn't say she doesn't remember. It sounds, if anything, that she got lots of sexual experience.
But to be fair, I'm saying this from the top of my head, and don't got time rn to double check that scene. I may be wrong.
It is mentioned during the Mizora scene, yes. Now, I consider the Mizora dialogue only written to fit the Halsin narrative, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.
But lets assume it is correct, she still only remembers the deeds. What she doesn't remember is that she kept straying, because that is what they kept wiping from her memory; the part of her that didn't want any of it. She was - for all intents and purposes - being
raped
, repeatedly, if we're going to take the Mizora chat as canon. (I think you all know what word is there but some might not want to read it)
If that's what they want to imply, they're free to, I'm not averse of talking about heavy subjects. It still doesn't fit the person she becomes with you throughout the story, therefore she still shouldn't be okay with sharing or you cheating, by the time you get to act 3. Your Dark Urge butler tells you some pretty disturbing things about your own past. The knowledge of you doing those things doesn't make you that person now.
The problem with Mizora is that you have control over situation and this happens only if you want to, Shadowheart's reaction to this is ok. But you cant for some reason control situation with Halsin(bugged or not) with their banter and drows fivesome.
The problem with Mizora is that you have control over situation and this happens only if you want to, Shadowheart's reaction to this is ok. But you cant for some reason control situation with Halsin(bugged or not) with their banter and drows fivesome.
I still think the reaction is completely out of character. She's fully devoted herself to you, spited her goddess for you - the only support she's ever known before she meets you, it is claimed by the Dark Urge butler that you are the only person she's ever trusted, and yet she never expected that devotion, that trust, to be returned? I find that hard to believe. I mean, obviously your actions if you do sleep with Mizora speak for themselves, however she should be a lot more upset and very much not okay with it.
The severe
repeated rape
implications make more sense than that, because at least that scenario isn't the only time it is implied, even if the other times are a lot more vague.
The problem with Mizora is that you have control over situation and this happens only if you want to, Shadowheart's reaction to this is ok. But you cant for some reason control situation with Halsin(bugged or not) with their banter and drows fivesome.
I still think the reaction is completely out of character. She's fully devoted herself to you, spited her goddess for you - the only support she's ever known before she meets you, it is claimed by the Dark Urge butler that you are the only person she's ever trusted, and yet she never expected that devotion, that trust, to be returned? I find that hard to believe. I mean, obviously your actions if you do sleep with Mizora speak for themselves, however she should be a lot more upset and very much not okay with it.
The severe
repeated rape
implications make more sense than that, because at least that scenario isn't the only time it is implied, even if the other times are a lot more vague.
Again as I said before, she creates impression that she is disappointed well(at least to me), especially last line about "I'd rather see you happy than guilty". Anyways you can avoid this and probably should unless you want something spicy. I d consider this option on the same row as jsut surrendering Shadowheart to Viconia, just for fun why not or just shoot her parents b4 she can reach them in house of grief option.
Again as I said before, she creates impression that she is disappointed well(at least to me), especially last line about "I'd rather see you happy than guilty". Anyways you can avoid this and probably should unless you want something spicy. I d consider this option on the same row as jsut surrendering Shadowheart to Viconia, just for fun why not or just shoot her parents b4 she can reach them in house of grief option.
I know that it's avoidable, if they do change it I'd be none the wiser (other than reading patch notes). I just think it's out of character. I still think it's odd that she's okay (disappointed, but seemingly only because you didn't ask) and expecting of you to cheat on her. Some other companions will break up on you, so while it is still something people will generally only do before pressing F8, consistency is still nice. Imagine you handed over Shadowheart to Viconia and her reaction is "Thank god I'm finally rid of you and back in Shar's lovely embrace". It's not something you'll ever logically do in an actual playthrough unless you're roleplaying someone really.. interesting, but the reaction should still fit the character.
The problem with Mizora is that you have control over situation and this happens only if you want to, Shadowheart's reaction to this is ok. But you cant for some reason control situation with Halsin(bugged or not) with their banter and drows fivesome.
I still think the reaction is completely out of character. She's fully devoted herself to you, spited her goddess for you - the only support she's ever known before she meets you, it is claimed by the Dark Urge butler that you are the only person she's ever trusted, and yet she never expected that devotion, that trust, to be returned? I find that hard to believe. I mean, obviously your actions if you do sleep with Mizora speak for themselves, however she should be a lot more upset and very much not okay with it.
The severe
repeated rape
implications make more sense than that, because at least that scenario isn't the only time it is implied, even if the other times are a lot more vague.
Ugh, the story that seems to show if you read this implications as you did is even darker and drow/halsin/mizora fits somewhat to her coping mechanisms…? Unconscious “I feel undeserving of Tav’s love so I’ll self sabotage” Like, when you meet
Nocturne in House of Grief, her best friend, she describes Shadowheart as caring, having a mouse once but ordered by Viconia to kill the animal in front of others as a lesson. Describes how they we’re together in a hideout making each other hair, very close to each other (could be read as a romantic relationship or platonic one). Even mentions how SH beat the crap out of transphobes there.
It shows SH as being soft and rather emotional there, not into casual sex or something.
Ugh, the story that seems to show if you read this implications as you did is even darker and drow/halsin/mizora fits somewhat to her coping mechanisms…? Unconscious “I feel undeserving of Tav’s love so I’ll self sabotage” Like, when you meet
Nocturne in House of Grief, her best friend, she describes Shadowheart as caring, having a mouse once but ordered by Viconia to kill the animal in front of others as a lesson. Describes how they we’re together in a hideout making each other hair, very close to each other (could be read as a romantic relationship or platonic one). Even mentions how SH beat the crap out of transphobes there.
It shows SH as being soft and rather emotional there, not into casual sex or something.
They could technically rewrite it into that, but that's - as far as I know - how Astarion is written to some extent. I think he's okay with it so he won't lose you. But Astarion also wasn't very hard to get initially, he sleeps with you freely in act 1 already. And Gale can also be bullied into a 5-some with the Drow twins and Halsin, where he sits on the sideline as you get it on. Halsin in general just makes everything look bad.
If we were going by the self sabotage just to keep you narrative then she should give you approval for declining Halsin. As it stands, she initiates and encourages the drow twins hookup, disapproves of you wanting only her and not Halsin together with them, dreams of sleeping with him, and encourages a relationship with him. That's not self sabotage because she thinks she's undeserving of you.
As for the meeting with
Nocturne, it's not implied that they had a relationship past 'doing meaningless, small things that she'd forget even if she had her memories' together like talking and doing each other's hair. However, if you talk to Nocturne before confronting Viconia, she will say that 'if the rumors of what they did to you are true, I won't stop you from taking revenge.'. This is very vague and can mean just repeated memory wipes and sending her on the suicide mission to get the artifact, but if the Mizora chat was canon, the interpretation can be very dark indeed.
How does she encourage drow-twins encounter? She literally says IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE SO AM I. And you can say nvm changed my mind and you wont get hit by disapproval. Drows with Halsin is another story obviously.
How does she encourage drow-twins encounter? She literally says IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE SO AM I. And you can say nvm changed my mind and you wont get hit by disapproval. Drows with Halsin is another story obviously.
If your partner told you "Now there's an idea.. if you're comfortable sharing, so am I." in a suggestive tone to someone suggesting a 4-some, you wouldn't consider that as encouraging?
How does she encourage drow-twins encounter? She literally says IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE SO AM I. And you can say nvm changed my mind and you wont get hit by disapproval. Drows with Halsin is another story obviously.
If your partner told you "Now there's an idea.. if you're comfortable sharing, so am I." in a suggestive tone to someone suggesting a 4-some, you wouldn't consider that as encouraging?
Well you are in a brothel discussing an agreement with sex workers, she is just faster that Tav to understand what are they talking about. It also procs only you talk to them first time. Personally she rejected them first time and if you come there 2nd or 3rd time after first visit(regardless of outcome) there is only your character that initates it. Of course it could be changed same as Mizora fling, but I wont call it "first" priority in that case(Dont get me wrong, I would prefer her to be less comfortable sharing too. I would like some dialogue option for her to discuss all that poly shit and just have option to tell her that I want her and only her, so my character will get massive disapproval or even break up if I happen to do things to Mizora for example). First priority for me is still Halsin with his vile things(personally for me the worst part is that this creeper somehow knows about your intimate moment with swimming and I cant stop imagining him spying in squirell form or something. Disapproval thing stinks as much too though).
Well you are in a brothel discussing an agreement with sex workers, she is just faster that Tav to understand what are they talking about. It also procs only you talk to them first time. Personally she rejected them first time and if you come there 2nd or 3rd time after first visit(regardless of outcome) there is only your character that initates it. Of course it could be changed same as Mizora fling, but I wont call it "first" priority in that case(Dont get me wrong, I would prefer her to be less comfortable sharing too.
I think it'd be odd for her to say that even if you said you wanted it, but right now she says it while all you are is inquisitive as to why they're there. Remember, you're not even in the brothel for the usual business, you're there to chat with Voss and Raphael, and potentially more quest NPCs. Of course, now I'm sort of reaching, you DID actively start talking to prostitutes, but in my opinion it should be you saying yes first, and her reaction doesn't fit character (after the swimming scene).
Originally Posted by Netav
I would like some dialogue option for her to discuss all that poly shit and just have option to tell her that I want her and only her, so my character will get massive disapproval or even break up if I happen to do things to Mizora for example). First priority for me is still Halsin with his vile things(personally for me the worst part is that this creeper somehow knows about your intimate moment with swimming and I cant stop imagining him spying in squirell form or something. Disapproval thing stinks as much too though).
You have though. Any situation where you do anything with another companion, such as kissing Wyll after your dance, and can talk about poly. She's not okay with it. Done deal. They just retconned it for no reason in act 3.
As for the swimming thing, she does talk about still having sand in her hair the morning after, heavily implying that the rest will know what happened, so him knowing I don't mind as much as the dialogue itself. Just imagine how cute it'd be if he asked what happened (with some implication he knows) and she says you two ran off to make sand castles. Instead, we get this.
I'm not sure if it was in this thread or somewhere else that I brought it up but yeah you are right. If you actually pay attention and read between the lines, the implication of her brainwashing is darker than you might think.
But at the same time I think you guys are reading a bit too much into it (coping mechanism, not appropriate for her character etc.) when the explanation is rather simple. The writer just went with the 'that's hot' mindset. His whole portfolio is 'that's hot' regardless of whether people are comfortable with it or not, just look up his other characters. (I mean they marketed the game with bestiality and the writer bragged about on his twitter)
From Hasin to the Red Prince, even Shadowheart it is clear that this writer doesn't either have the skill or the wish to explore these topics in a deeper manner or with a delicate touch it deserves. That's why all of them devolve into cheep erotic novels. (And the sex starved redditors are going wild for it. 'I wish there were fully animated sex scenes' few redditors said, lmao)
As for the brothel (without Halsin) and the Mizora scenes, even tho I think those were done poorly and don't necessarily fit her character they are avoidable (and to an extent you can explain them away or just roll with it depending on your preferences). The main issue comes with Halsin, he is like that stupid marvel meme 'I'm inevitable' and that to me just shows me where the writers priorities lie.
I still think he did a good job on Shadowheart overall. It's multiple hours of good content with three inconsistent scenarios, almost entirely if not entirely avoidable.
The only thing I can really criticize from the consistent writing is her romance ending, but all endings are rubbish as it stands, so that's hardly just his fault.
Oh, and the hugs, of course. We desperately need hug options during some dialogues and in general.
Things I've personally noticed after replaying and trying different things. 1. About the twins without Halsin, okay, it's not uncommon for couples to try different things sometimes. I can get that, and I don't think it's way out of character, it is more like, she's checking if you're okay with it. I can accept that from her tbh.
2. With Halsin, all I can think it's that there is a bug in the flags because let's be honest here, Act 3 is a nightmare to any player who wants immersion and wants characters to stay in their place. I got flirts in Act 3 from characters I had said no to their advances, I had random lines from Gale, Karlach, etc. All acting as if we were a thing here and there. So, for now, at least, I will just accept and hope it's a bug.
3. About Mizora, I never had any interest in her so I had no idea, and I went to yt to check the video after learning about it. And I will be honest, She is not okay with it. She may be saying that, but the lines, the way the VA portrays Shadowheart? If you ever were in a real relationship you'll know, she may be saying she's ok, but she's not. And here it's you to blame, you cheated on her, and there's nothing you can use or say as an excuse to justify it, even if it's a poly romance with her, it's still cheating on your partner. The way she talks about purity, etc. She's just mad at you and realized that to have you she'll need to accept that.
Things I've personally noticed after replaying and trying different things. 1. About the twins without Halsin, okay, it's not uncommon for couples to try different things sometimes. I can get that, and I don't think it's way out of character, it is more like, she's checking if you're okay with it. I can accept that from her tbh.
2. With Halsin, all I can think it's that there is a bug in the flags because let's be honest here, Act 3 is a nightmare to any player who wants immersion and wants characters to stay in their place. I got flirts in Act 3 from characters I had said no to their advances, I had random lines from Gale, Karlach, etc. All acting as if we were a thing here and there. So, for now, at least, I will just accept and hope it's a bug.
3. About Mizora, I never had any interest in her so I had no idea, and I went to yt to check the video after learning about it. And I will be honest, She is not okay with it. She may be saying that, but the lines, the way the VA portrays Shadowheart? If you ever were in a real relationship you'll know, she may be saying she's ok, but she's not. And here it's you to blame, you cheated on her, and there's nothing you can use or say as an excuse to justify it, even if it's a poly romance with her, it's still cheating on your partner. The way she talks about purity, etc. She's just mad at you and realized that to have you she'll need to accept that.
I agree with most of what you said (I don't think its a bug tho, since bugs don't suddenly materialize words into existence. It's obvious that the writer intended for the Shadowheart/Halsin thing to happen during her romance) but those scenes aren't the issue on their own, its when you put them all together is where the huge Halsin shaped problem pops up.
If the MC sleeps with Mizora it is obvious that Shadowheart isn't happy and that the MC cheated, but her contradictory line about her not looking for anything pure or loyal (her not being more upset or even breaking up with the MC) is what paves a path for Halsin. Add the banter to that and voilà, you have the shit show that everyone is complaining about.
Things I've personally noticed after replaying and trying different things. 1. About the twins without Halsin, okay, it's not uncommon for couples to try different things sometimes. I can get that, and I don't think it's way out of character, it is more like, she's checking if you're okay with it. I can accept that from her tbh.
2. With Halsin, all I can think it's that there is a bug in the flags because let's be honest here, Act 3 is a nightmare to any player who wants immersion and wants characters to stay in their place. I got flirts in Act 3 from characters I had said no to their advances, I had random lines from Gale, Karlach, etc. All acting as if we were a thing here and there. So, for now, at least, I will just accept and hope it's a bug.
3. About Mizora, I never had any interest in her so I had no idea, and I went to yt to check the video after learning about it. And I will be honest, She is not okay with it. She may be saying that, but the lines, the way the VA portrays Shadowheart? If you ever were in a real relationship you'll know, she may be saying she's ok, but she's not. And here it's you to blame, you cheated on her, and there's nothing you can use or say as an excuse to justify it, even if it's a poly romance with her, it's still cheating on your partner. The way she talks about purity, etc. She's just mad at you and realized that to have you she'll need to accept that.
If the MC sleeps with Mizora it is obvious that Shadowheart isn't happy and that the MC cheated, but her contradictory line about her not looking for anything pure or loyal (her not being more upset or even breaking up with the MC) is what paves a path for Halsin. Add the banter to that and voilà, you have the shit show that everyone is complaining about.
Yeah it's contradictory, especially after her lines in Act 1 or 2 where she clearly states that she doesn't want to share Tav. But i could get over that (because she is clearly upset when Tav cheats, even though i would like she would be even more angry), what irritates me is this whole Halsin situation.
3. About Mizora, I never had any interest in her so I had no idea, and I went to yt to check the video after learning about it. And I will be honest, She is not okay with it. She may be saying that, but the lines, the way the VA portrays Shadowheart? If you ever were in a real relationship you'll know, she may be saying she's ok, but she's not. And here it's you to blame, you cheated on her, and there's nothing you can use or say as an excuse to justify it, even if it's a poly romance with her, it's still cheating on your partner. The way she talks about purity, etc. She's just mad at you and realized that to have you she'll need to accept that.
She sounds more upset that you don't ask than that you did it. Yes, she is still disappointed by it though. But the problem is, as Rotsen said, that she claims she never expected you to be loyal. That doesn't make sense based on her. Why would she be loyal to you and be consistently devoted and wanting to share her world with you throughout act 3 if she doesn't expect you to be loyal anyway?
And act 3 is bad at consequences. Really bad. There are none, that's the problem. There's no reward not doing it. There's no punishment doing it. All her remaining dialogue is the exact same, meaning that, if you look too much into it which lets be real we tend to do, it means she will ALWAYS think you won't remain loyal.
But yes, the Halsin scenario is still the biggest glaring problem, because everything else is player initiated (except my slight gripe with the drows, but even that is only one dialogue path AND you talking to them in the first place). But Halsin's will happen to anyone who plays with him in the party, unprovoked by the player.
Things I've personally noticed after replaying and trying different things. 1. About the twins without Halsin, okay, it's not uncommon for couples to try different things sometimes. I can get that, and I don't think it's way out of character, it is more like, she's checking if you're okay with it. I can accept that from her tbh.
2. With Halsin, all I can think it's that there is a bug in the flags because let's be honest here, Act 3 is a nightmare to any player who wants immersion and wants characters to stay in their place. I got flirts in Act 3 from characters I had said no to their advances, I had random lines from Gale, Karlach, etc. All acting as if we were a thing here and there. So, for now, at least, I will just accept and hope it's a bug.
3. About Mizora, I never had any interest in her so I had no idea, and I went to yt to check the video after learning about it. And I will be honest, She is not okay with it. She may be saying that, but the lines, the way the VA portrays Shadowheart? If you ever were in a real relationship you'll know, she may be saying she's ok, but she's not. And here it's you to blame, you cheated on her, and there's nothing you can use or say as an excuse to justify it, even if it's a poly romance with her, it's still cheating on your partner. The way she talks about purity, etc. She's just mad at you and realized that to have you she'll need to accept that.
I agree with most of what you said (I don't think its a bug tho, since bugs don't suddenly materialize words into existence. It's obvious that the writer intended for the Shadowheart/Halsin thing to happen during her romance) but those scenes aren't the issue on their own, its when you put them all together is where the huge Halsin shaped problem pops up.
If the MC sleeps with Mizora it is obvious that Shadowheart isn't happy and that the MC cheated, but her contradictory line about her not looking for anything pure or loyal (her not being more upset or even breaking up with the MC) is what paves a path for Halsin. Add the banter to that and voilà, you have the shit show that everyone is complaining about.
About the bug, I mean the fact not of it being in her lines, but maybe it's supposed to only trigger if you're romancing both. It's what I hope at least, time will tell when they release the finished game in a definitive edition. Until then, I'll just let it slide as a bug personally.
About purity in her line, if you pay attention, it's where she even raises her voice more, it's because she's mad, and can be also seen as if she will accept it because she doesn't want to lose you. And I also agree that is because like was said by others and it's already established, they removed ALL consequences in Act 3. So, there's that as well, you can basically do whatever and things will just work out to basically the same exact path.
How does she encourage drow-twins encounter? She literally says IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE SO AM I. And you can say nvm changed my mind and you wont get hit by disapproval. Drows with Halsin is another story obviously.
If your partner told you "Now there's an idea.. if you're comfortable sharing, so am I." in a suggestive tone to someone suggesting a 4-some, you wouldn't consider that as encouraging?
It's bad enough with strangers who do it for work.
But when the person you're with is suddenly wanting to bring in your buddy, that's not the same thing. It's far worse. He's pushing in to have sex with your girlfriend, and she's talking about how she's been dreaming about it. That's a relationship-over level character flaw.
All I want to say it's that *hopefully* when they release the DE, we can all come back to this post and have a laugh remembering the bad state of her (and others companions) romance.
I think these last couple of weeks I'd talked more SH sexual life than my own. lol
This was my very first time romancing in a videogame, and... welp, let's say I plan to only romance Lae'zel (I really like that character) and then going back to my no-romance fictional characters rule. :p
But on the meantime, can we all agreed that THE GOBLIN KIDS WERE RIGHT? :p
All I want to say it's that *hopefully* when they release the DE, we can all come back to this post and have a laugh remembering the bad state of her (and others companions) romance.
I think these last couple of weeks I'd talked more SH sexual life than my own. lol
This was my very first time romancing in a videogame, and... welp, let's say I plan to only romance Lae'zel (I really like that character) and then going back to my no-romance fictional characters rule. :p
But on the meantime, can we all agreed that THE GOBLIN KIDS WERE RIGHT? :p
Eh, I always roleplay in RPGs so I have that layer of separation from characters. Never got that emotionally invested and I don't think I ever will.
When I made this thread I made it for two reasons, I didn't see anyone talking about it (probably because not that many people finished the game at the time) and because I was a bit flabbergasted by the developers decision to even add it to the game. (You could say I'm not a fan of a fetish or two that you can find in this game. But my main issue has always been with the writing and its implementation.)
My reaction/post might have been a bit inflammatory ( ) but using hyperbole and throwing certain words around are a good way to attract attention and evoke emotion. (Did it work? Took some time by the looks of it.)
As for spending more time talking about fictional characters, few minutes every other day to just mess around on the forums is still somewhat fun. But I'm kind of losing interest even in that to be honest.
Do I think they will fix it with the DE? I don't think Larian sees these complaints/issues (Halsin, Minthara - non evil path, Shadowheart etc. Not Karlach because its a lack of quest/ending and not something missable/minor) as something they need to fix and I don't think they will. I'm open to being wrong tho.
But as a speculation for possible outcomes I'll throw in three.
- They wont change anything because her issue is minor and nicely hidden/off the beaten path that most people have missed it.
- They will change it by totally removing any lack of player choice or even better, fully excising Halsin from her story.
- They will change it by adding more dialogue where she shows interest in Halsin during her early story and makes the whole romance feel like she's settling for the MC while truly wanting Halsin, you never know with this writer. (In all honesty this one would end up being the funniest shit ever since more people will notice it and the chaos that would ensue would be fun to watch.)
ps. Reminder to myself - you're using to be honest/in all honesty a bit too much in you're recent posts lol
Originally Posted by JandK
It's bad enough with strangers who do it for work.
But when the person you're with is suddenly wanting to bring in your buddy, that's not the same thing. It's far worse. He's pushing in to have sex with your girlfriend, and she's talking about how she's been dreaming about it. That's a relationship-over level character flaw.
Wow JandK! Having boundaries and self respect? Controlling much .
All I want to say it's that *hopefully* when they release the DE, we can all come back to this post and have a laugh remembering the bad state of her (and others companions) romance.
I think these last couple of weeks I'd talked more SH sexual life than my own. lol
This was my very first time romancing in a videogame, and... welp, let's say I plan to only romance Lae'zel (I really like that character) and then going back to my no-romance fictional characters rule. :p
But on the meantime, can we all agreed that THE GOBLIN KIDS WERE RIGHT? :p
Eh, I always roleplay in RPGs so I have that layer of separation from characters. Never got that emotionally invested and I don't think I ever will.
When I made this thread I made it for two reasons, I didn't see anyone talking about it (probably because not that many people finished the game at the time) and because I was a bit flabbergasted by the developers decision to even add it to the game. (You could say I'm not a fan of a fetish or two that you can find in this game. But my main issue has always been with the writing and its implementation.)
My reaction/post might have been a bit inflammatory ( ) but using hyperbole and throwing certain words around are a good way to attract attention and evoke emotion. (Did it work? Took some time by the looks of it.)
As for spending more time talking about fictional characters, few minutes every other day to just mess around on the forums is still somewhat fun. But I'm kind of losing interest even in that to be honest.
Do I think they will fix it with the DE? I don't think Larian sees these complaints/issues (Halsin, Minthara - non evil path, Shadowheart etc. Not Karlach because its a lack of quest/ending and not something missable/minor) as something they need to fix and I don't think they will. I'm open to being wrong tho.
But as a speculation for possible outcomes I'll throw in three.
- They wont change anything because her issue is minor and nicely hidden/off the beaten path that most people have missed it.
- They will change it by totally removing any lack of player choice or even better, fully excising Halsin from her story.
- They will change it by adding more dialogue where she shows interest in Halsin during her early story and makes the whole romance feel like she's settling for the MC while truly wanting Halsin, you never know with this writer. (In all honesty this one would end up being the funniest shit ever since more people will notice it and the chaos that would ensue would be fun to watch.)
ps. Reminder to myself - you're using to be honest/in all honesty a bit too much in you're recent posts lol
Originally Posted by JandK
It's bad enough with strangers who do it for work.
But when the person you're with is suddenly wanting to bring in your buddy, that's not the same thing. It's far worse. He's pushing in to have sex with your girlfriend, and she's talking about how she's been dreaming about it. That's a relationship-over level character flaw.
Wow JandK! Having boundaries and self respect? Controlling much .
I mean, I think you summarized the situation well enough when you created the post. I don't know if I would call it that I was emotionally invested, but it made me more mad than I'll ever admit in real life. lol
I also don't think they'll do much regarding this. If anything, they'll only fix Karlach ending. I mean, let's be honest, this probably is gonna be the GOTY. I don't know what reason a company that is selling well and the majority of people is praising will spend money on fixing this.
And yes, I also roleplay rpg games but never was interested in the romance option (and seeing how my first time using the romance option has been, it's very possible it would stay that way). lol
The part about talking about fictional characters, I said more because I'm used to just play games & not interacting with the community. It was a moment of self-realization. :p
Anyways, I don't mean to disencourage people from sharing their opinions. Y'all keep making good arguments, and hopefully they'll see it and decide to fix these inconsistencies.
PS: Sorry for my bad English, probably is being a pain to read me.
Far as I know, Larian cares about polishing up their games. D:OS and D:OS2 both got definitive editions down the line, though I do not know how much those added. I only played D:OS after the DE, and D:OS2 before the DE, which certainly felt a lot like BG3 when it came to the final act, but I only played that one full multiplayer so without origin companions.
Either way, it at least means they work on them post-launch. And since BG3 is a bigger project than likely D:OS and D:OS2 were combined, it's possible that the DE changes will also be larger.
Regarding changes, the easiest and most likely to happen (other than doing nothing) will just be changing triggers to have it no longer happen if you decline Halsin. This doesn't just account for Shadowheart; I think Halsin tries to force himself in during the drow twins conversation no matter the companion, though I might be wrong. I doubt the swimming dialogue will change. The rest is optional, player choice. I strongly doubt the story itself will get severe changes.
Though one can only hope things get changed for the better. Either way, I enjoy discussing and theorycrafting things, so this is entertaining to me all the same.
Even if its "small" or "avoidable" thing as some claim, Larian claim that they pay ettention to small things, that only 0.1% will see or something like that. So in my opinion it should be changed. Also its not a small thing at all if you ask me.
I don't have any issue with the openess to casual sex and multiple sexual partners. It's surprising and inconsistent sure, but it is triggered through the player's own choices and agency and can be ignored if you don't make those choices. I am comfortable sharing if you are is a fully acceptable approach to me and it doesn't come off as pushy, she is perfectly fine to accept and commit to whatever you want in the situation. That's a healthy example of comunication you should have if you go into a relationship with different experiences and attitudes to avoid misunderstandings and make sure everyone are on the same page.
The problem, with capital letters, is spelled HALSIN, and his repeated behaviour of not accepting boundaries and trying to push his way in even if he has been rejected. Like Emar said, he is not entitled to having anything to do with Tav's sexlife and sexual choices in that scenario. The only acceptable approach for him is to back off and leave it alone. It is creepy and vile behaviour and though not explicitly a case of rape, he emboddies the same attitudes and behaviours that surrounds rape culture. I want that to stay as far away from my game as possible, unless it is there so I can fireball it to hell, and until it is resolved, the solution to let the goblin children, the shadowfell or Orin deal with that problem are fully reasonable ways to put that where it belongs.
I don't have any issue with the openess to casual sex and multiple sexual partners. It's surprising and inconsistent sure, but it is triggered through the player's own choices and agency and can be ignored if you don't make those choices. I am comfortable sharing if you are is a fully acceptable approach to me and it doesn't come off as pushy, she is perfectly fine to accept and commit to whatever you want in the situation. That's a healthy example of comunication you should have if you go into a relationship with different experiences and attitudes to avoid misunderstandings and make sure everyone are on the same page.
The problem, with capital letters, is spelled HALSIN, and his repeated behaviour of not accepting boundaries and trying to push his way in even if he has been rejected. Like Emar said, he is not entitled to having anything to do with Tav's sexlife and sexual choices in that scenario. The only acceptable approach for him is to back off and leave it alone. It is creepy and vile behaviour and though not explicitly a case of rape, he emboddies the same attitudes and behaviours that surrounds rape culture. I want that to stay as far away from my game as possible, unless it is there so I can fireball it to hell, and until it is resolved, the solution to let the goblin children, the shadowfell or Orin deal with that problem are fully reasonable ways to put that where it belongs.
Sure its more on Halsin, but hey, I chose option "I will talk to Shadowheart about your "proposal" and in conversation with her chose that I prefer to stay with her and I dont want any Halsins. Aaaand obviously he still pushes himself again in sharess caress despite me rejecting him and I get disapproval from her aswell? Excuse me but thats vile and toxic, she doesnt respect your choice either. Of course this may be bugged(I hope so).
Sure its more on Halsin, but hey, I chose option "I will talk to Shadowheart about your "proposal" and in conversation with her chose that I prefer to stay with her and I dont want any Halsins. Aaaand obviously he still pushes himself again in sharess caress despite me rejecting him and I get disapproval from her aswell? Excuse me but thats vile and toxic, she doesnt respect your choice either. Of course this may be bugged(I hope so).
Sure, I think I've said before that it is really inconsiderate and inexcusable (though ultimately she does actually accept your decision with nothing about your relationship changing, but the pouty guilttrip is totally unneccessary). But it only happens in the presence and context of Halsin, he is the catalyst. It would never even happen if he respected your rejection and stayed out of your sexlife in the first place. No Halsin - no problem.
Sure its more on Halsin, but hey, I chose option "I will talk to Shadowheart about your "proposal" and in conversation with her chose that I prefer to stay with her and I dont want any Halsins. Aaaand obviously he still pushes himself again in sharess caress despite me rejecting him and I get disapproval from her aswell? Excuse me but thats vile and toxic, she doesnt respect your choice either. Of course this may be bugged(I hope so).
Sure, I think I've said before that it is really inconsiderate and inexcusable (though ultimately she does actually accept your decision with nothing about your relationship changing, but the pouty guilttrip is totally unneccessary). But it only happens in the presence and context of Halsin, he is the catalyst. It would never even happen if he respected your rejection and stayed out of your sexlife in the first place. No Halsin - no problem.
You are right I think. Because if you actually accept his "proposal" and start 2 romances then in brothel situation it is acceptable. Because if you reject Halsin in sharess caress - it makes your character "toxic", because she allowed you to "start" fling with Halsin, but you supress her. In this case disapproval is normal and makes perfect sense.
Just remember though, her being okay with it in the first place doesn't make any sense anyway, so no point trying to make sense about the rest of it.
She talks about cobwebbed loins if you talk to her about Halsin, however that's exactly what she has at that point, because you don't sleep with her for the entirety of act 1 and 2, and still haven't when this dialogue pops up. She even says "have your fun, perhaps I'll have mine". She literally hasn't slept with you yet and the dialogue is already indicating you both sleeping around with others.
In one of the options she also says "I'm glad that understanding is noticed, it hasn't always been with others", implying she's been the one asking for poly before in previous relationships. Which, according to all dialogue in the game, she's never had, just casual. And that "other" ironically is her herself, in act 1 and act 2.
She won't even act upon your relationship when you find out she's into you when she admits it if you do anything with another companion in act 2, and wants to break up with you for the exact same thing you'd do with Halsin. Yet with Halsin, it's a-okay and she's open to sleeping around. Complete 180 from her act 1 and act 2 writing.
It's just bad writing. The triggers where he forces himself in need to go when you don't accept him, done deal. Just see the rest of it as the inconsistency that it is.
Yes it's very inconsistent but at the same time again she doesn't speak this way unless you bring up the notion of poly shit yourself meaning she's very content with just you. I'd like all the inconsistencies removed such as that but you have to be diplomatic with this poly people because they'll jump down your throat for even suggesting wanting you character and Shadowheart to be exclusive so I highly doubt they would change anything about that conversation to appease those weirdos. So to me when you romance Halsin and bring it up with her and her reaction to that is not as relevant as the brothel thing where you have no say in anything.
That warning is too late for portionbeans, I’m afraid. Continued rudeness and insulting language about others after there have already been warnings and a timeout isn’t going to end well. They’ll be taking a longer break this time.
But it’s good advice, nevertheless. It’s perfectly possible to discuss this topic without taking digs at others or being nasty about anyone’s real life preferences, so let’s do that.
Halsin thread is running wild lmao. Anyways wanted to bring this interesting convo in game regarding Shadowheart/Halsin situation now that I loaded my earlier saves at around his "proposal" in act 3 early. I think there is no option to break up with Shadowheart if you already told Halsin that you will talk to her about his "proposal"(You can only end your relationship with her without talking to her, so telling Halsin right away that will result in break up with her. Halsin will propose you to talk to her anyway and you respond I dont need to its over). Even if you say that you want Halsin and there is no place for "us" to her - she still wont breal up and says that she can manage. It can be interpreted in 2 things really: 1. She is really into your character and she doesn't want to lose your character. 2. She is really into Halsin I guess, to the point that she is fine being in "cuck" position for now. Or both perhaps? Ye, thats might be a bit of exaggeration, but you get the point. Or Halsin thingy is just a last moment addition lmao.
1. She is really into your character and she doesn't want to lose your character. 2. She is really into Halsin I guess, to the point that she is fine being in "cuck" position for now. Or both perhaps? Ye, thats might be a bit of exaggeration, but you get the point. Or Halsin thingy is just a last moment addition lmao.
Devs themselves said Halsin was not planned as companion, he was added later in development cycle.
As I wrote in Halsin thread. Larian could at least "compromise".
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At the end I think its easily fixable at least for Shadowheart/Halsin situation(Im not well aware what is going on in Astarion/Halsin situation) without major rewriting. Make it so Halsin doesn't insert himself in drow convo if you told him that you are not interested earlier(works for Astarion situation aswell I guess). Or make it play for anyone if you accepted his proposal. Also maybe supress his banter to Shadowheart after her romance scene. Remove disapproval message for Shadowheart if you reject his "little" company(Though it should never even play if you denied him already).Both types of players should be ok with that I think and it doesnt require much rewriting.
It should be called out that the companions are all quite shallow and forgetable compared to many other RPGs and that Larian in order to distract from that seem to have specifically designed them for rule 34 and simping/thirsting which many fans seem to gladly indulge in considering even here most posts about the companions are about who has sex with whom.
This is not a good development for rpgs in general.
It should be called out that the companions are all quite shallow and forgetable compared to many other RPGs and that Larian in order to distract from that seem to have specifically designed them for rule 34 and simping/thirsting which many fans seem to gladly indulge in considering even here most posts about the companions are about who has sex with whom.
This is not a good development for rpgs in general.
Yes, I think that the little erotic sex fantasy side stories are what they are and there for that audience, they really don't play a big part in the grand scheme of things. No one ever really cared about consistency in porn, so why expect it from porn within a game?
Yes they do of course. But I think that once the decision is made that sex fantasy side content was to be included, you have kind of already taken the decision to throw consistency out the window. I can see other things taking higher priority than pouring all your energy into making your porn side content consistent.
Play it your way, with inconsistent erotic side content if you want and without it if you want.
But of course they need to address where these two playstyles clash and one of them intrudes upon the other.
Edit, and if you find my passionate investment in some regards while being rather carefree in other regards confusing. Let me clarify, I don't care or bother that much with the sexual fantasy stuff thay I can generally just ignore being in there. But if it is to be there, it better be consensual and a character that is generally regarded and written as "good" should not embrace toxic attitudes (it would be different if it was Minthara, context matters). Happy horny is fine, problematic sexual predator horny is not. Young people will be playing this game, regardless of it's mature rating and they should not be mislead into thinking that certain behaviours are ok and just fun. The real world matters too.
Yes they do of course. But I think that once the decision is made that sex fantasy side content was to be included, you have kind of already taken the decision to throw consistency out the window. I can see other things taking higher priority than pouring all your energy into making your porn side content consistent.
Play it your way, with inconsistent erotic side content if you want and without it if you want.
But of course they need to address where these two playstyles clash and one of them intrudes upon the other.
Inconsistency is inconsistency. Small details matter a lot, they create immersion and make game memorable. Larian are well aware of this, that is why they put so much attention to them and thats what makes their game special. And yes, this situation aroudn Halsin/SH caught me off guard and that is why I found this thread and that is why I am here in the first place.
Personally I do not see any "greater scheme of things". The sex fantasies are the great scheme and the companions were designed for that, including the elven supremacy. Honestly, the cast of BG3 reminds me more of a visual novel dating game cast than companions for a RPG. And the only character in BG3 that might make any "Top X RPG character" lists is Raphael, but none of the companions.
Its no coincidence that all discussions about the BG3 characters are about sex and that NPCs got upgraded to companions because of thirsting. Larian planned to make sex a central attribute for their companions to get away with otherwise mediocre personalities and stories.
So don't blame the fans for thirsting, they are just doing what Larian designed the companions for.
What details? Personally I do not see any "greater scheme of things". The sex fantasies are the great scheme and the companions were designed for that, including the elven supremacy. Honestly, the cast of BG3 reminds me more of a visual novel dating game cast than companions for a RPG. And the only character in BG3 that might make any "Top X RPG character" lists is Raphael, but none if the companions.
Its no coincidence that all discussions about the BG3 characters are about sex and that NPCs got upgraden to companions because of thirsting. Larian planned to make sex a central attribute fir their companions to het away with otherwise mediocre personalities and stories.
So don't blame the fans for thirsting, they are just doing what Larian designed the companions for.
Details about everything pretty much. Reactivity based on player's choice. And inconsistency in details around Shadowheart/Halsin/act3 is 1 of the complaints in this thread, no? I genuinely like companion stories, idk what are you talking about. But of course you are allowed to have your opinion.
It should be called out that the companions are all quite shallow and forgetable compared to many other RPGs and that Larian in order to distract from that seem to have specifically designed them for rule 34 and simping/thirsting which many fans seem to gladly indulge in considering even here most posts about the companions are about who has sex with whom.
This is not a good development for rpgs in general.
They are certainly lacking in content, I'll agree on that. But act 3, where the romances should blossom so to say, in general is lacking on origin companion content, not just romance-specific. Add all the missing or wrong triggers for the content that does exist and suddenly you have a very bare bones experience.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
Yes, I think that the little erotic sex fantasy side stories are what they are and there for that audience, they really don't play a big part in the grand scheme of things. No one ever really cared about consistency in porn, so why expect it from porn within a game?
I would disagree that they're forgettable erotic sex fantasy side stories. If anything, isn't that what people are arguing against here, with the Halsin/Shadowheart/Astarion scenario turning it into that if you indulge (or even just acknowledge Halsin's existence as a non-campbound companion)?
Both Shadowheart and Astarion have very tragic yet wholesome stories, especially if you romance them. And you can 'unfix' both, leading to your romance's downfall. And while Astarion uses sex as a tool in act 1, Shadowheart can in fact have no sex scene depending on your choices, and otherwise gets a very late one. Wyll doesn't even have a sex scene and yet what you get for his romance is memorable. It just needs more content. A lot more. Lae'zel's romance turns into a lovely story if you ignore the sex out of the blue at the start. Though she's the only one that does that, so it's acceptable. Karlach's is a story about knowing and accepting upcoming loss and making the most of the situation at hand. If you want to, you can avoid sex with her and have it be a caring relationship instead. Gale I'm not entirely sure. His romance bugged out for me in my playthroughs so far. I know his non-romance scene in act 2 is great, though, as a heart to heart moment between friends. Minthara's romance start very much feels like a "good job on being evil, enjoy your reward to compensate for the losses" sex scene in act 1, I agree on that.
The only time I feel like most companions are thirsting is around halfway act 1, where you have to turn them all down. Some would've preferred it if it were more player driven who you start romance with, but people do enjoy it when the companion isn't just interested in you if you show interest in them first. It's not bad for them to have some autonomy.
Halsin is pretty much the only one that's suddenly all about sex in act 3 and has no other content besides. And even then, it's not much to begin with. You get one scene, you get him forcing himself into the drows scene, and that's where it ends. The act still has like 30 hours left at that point. So he does fit that description perfectly in act 3. But not during act 1 and act 2.
I am not talking about the sex connected to the origin romances as side content. I am talking about sex with drow sex workers, devils, demons and mindflayers. They don't matter to the story at all and are just fully optional little erotic side adventures.
Personally I do not see any "greater scheme of things". The sex fantasies are the great scheme and the companions were designed for that, including the elven supremacy. Honestly, the cast of BG3 reminds me more of a visual novel dating game cast than companions for a RPG. And the only character in BG3 that might make any "Top X RPG character" lists is Raphael, but none of the companions.
Its no coincidence that all discussions about the BG3 characters are about sex and that NPCs got upgraded to companions because of thirsting. Larian planned to make sex a central attribute for their companions to get away with otherwise mediocre personalities and stories.
So don't blame the fans for thirsting, they are just doing what Larian designed the companions for.
I think you'll find that the most common complaint by a long shot is that there is not enough act 3 content for origin companions, romance or not, including epilogues. But there's little more to say there other than "Hey, we want more." so it's not a point of discussion. Well, except the Karlach thread, which is bigger than the rest combined and talks specifically about her lack of content, not her sex scenes being out of place.
I also think the lack of racial diversity in the cast is unfortunate. Helia would've been a welcome addition. But to slight the personalities of the ones we have.. well, I find them to have great personalities, in no small part thanks to the excellent work of the voice actors/actresses. Them having a bad personality is a take I'd expect someone to have when they killed them all before reaching the grove because they question your decisions at the start. I like that, I want to be questioned. Give me pause to think about what I'm doing.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
I am not taling about the sex connected to the origin romances as side content. I am talking about sex with drow sex workers, devils, demons and mindflayers. They don't matter to the story at all and are just fully optional little erotic side adventures.
Ah, yeah, that much is true. It's just unfortunate that in some of those cases they add backstory to them, meaning that it's impossible to tell if it was merely there as a porn script to appease the hornies or canon. With that in mind I almost prefer the Emperor/Haarlep situations, where your companions don't even acknowledge it. Therefore those are completely ignorable as porn and nothing more.
I am not taling about the sex connected to the romances as side content. I am talking about sex with drow sex workers, devils, demons and mindflayers. They don't matter to the story at all and are just fully optional little erotic side adventures.
I agree they are. I will tell you the story from my playthrough though. So here I am at the start of act3 enjoying content here and there, exploring area. It happened that I found Sharess caress. After exploring this area I talked to drow twins and out of curiousity did conversation with them(Dont worry I saved just in case). Shadowheart responded that she prefers my character all for herself at least for the first time, I remembered that. Then there were 2 long rests. 1 I got Shadowheart romance scene and 2nd long rest Halsin "proposed" himself, I instantly declined him obviously(It was generally good playthrough with SH mono romance, I declined Mizora/Haarlep/Emperor/Halsin). Then I tried to return to Sharess caress and see what happens... Can you imagine what I felt when I got that conversation?And disapproval after that.
The issue I have with the Halsin, SH and Astarion is how different it is if you romance Halsin only but neither of them. According to several ppl in the Halsin forum, Halsin shows no interest in SH or Astarion, nor they with him. But as soon you romance SH or Astarion, Halsin is suddenly interested in them, and they with him.
It makes zero sense. Why can't I just simply romance SH without the forced Halsin stuff? Like she doesn't care about him at all unless you are dating her. It is beyond bizarre.
That means she would have no interest flirting or having an orgy with him by herself. It's only when we're involved she wants this apparently...
None of the other companion romances come with this baggage. Which is unfair to those of us who wanna date SH or Astarion only. There's no reason they need to come packaged with Halsin.
So one can solo romance Halsin, but one can't solo romance SH or Astarion. How convenient.
Hmmm. Why aren't there more options for Poly? If Shadowheart is okay with Poly, why just Halsin?
I considered Karlach as a second partner, in part because, well, she's going to either die or go to Avernus, neither of which is great. Let's bring her in.
In fact, if you've had wine with Shadowheart and then let Karlach have you, you can actually offer Poly. But Shadowheart will step aside and say Karlach deserves your full attention.
This is tangential to this thread, but I discovered you can assassinate Halsin in Act 3 camp without repercussions.
I had Astarion the assassin mark Halsin with mark of piercing vulnerability before using the umbral shortsword's power to strike and remain concealed. Halsin was killed out of hand, 150xp, Gale grew temporarily hostile but calmed down after not finding the attacker.
Speak with dead is a bit broken, Halsin's corpse talked about a female Drow killer and unsolved mysteries at Moonrise towers??
Journal said we still had Halsin as an ally for the finale, maybe that'd update,? Or Halsin would resurrect. Who knows?
Packed Halsin in a barrel. Threw water to clean up...
And then reloaded. All a bit silly really. Still, nice to know there's a de-Helsinize camp option.
Which again proves how inconsistent this whole situation is. Someone claimed that Shadowheart is just attracted to muscular bodytype, thats why she "likes" Halsin, however Karlach is also muscular bodytype but she refuses to share with Karlach.
This is tangential to this thread, but I discovered you can assassinate Halsin in Act 3 camp without repercussions.
I had Astarion the assassin mark Halsin with mark of piercing vulnerability before using the umbral shortsword's power to strike and remain concealed. Halsin was killed out of hand, 150xp, Gale grew temporarily hostile but calmed down after not finding the attacker.
Speak with dead is a bit broken, Halsin's corpse talked about a female Drow killer and unsolved mysteries at Moonrise towers??
Journal said we still had Halsin as an ally for the finale, maybe that'd update,? Or Halsin would resurrect. Who knows?
Packed Halsin in a barrel. Threw water to clean up...
And then reloaded. All a bit silly really. Still, nice to know there's a de-Helsinize camp option.
I wonder if you can hit Halsin to the point where he leaves camp because of low approval. I believe if you repeadetly hit companions they will disapprove. So lets say heal and hit heal and hit again until he reaches -100 approval and leaves, need to try that lmao.
Usually that would be because someone is Poly but also straight. But every companion in this game is bi, so that can't be it either. Shadowheart semi flirts when you get Karlach and mentions she's big enough to carry her off if it is needed. There seems to be some kind of interest. But you the player can't do anything with it..
Lol We shouldn't have to do all that though. They could just give SH and Astarion the solo option we deserve and that fits with their story.
It's just so disgusting to me that they reduced SH (apologize for my language, I don't know how else to put it) to a wh*re. But there are people who like it. I have no idea how many in comparison to those who don't.
I was a looking at the comments in the hotfix the other day on steam. One commenter was wondering if there's beastiality why there isn't rape and was asking for the option. Like some people are seriously so gross.
Lol We shouldn't have to do all that though. They could just give SH and Astarion the solo option we deserve and that fits with their story.
It's just so disgusting to me that they reduced SH (apologize for my language, I don't know how else to put it) to a wh*re. But there are people who like it. I have no idea how many in comparison to those who don't.
I was a looking at the comments in the hotfix the other day on steam. One commenter was wondering if there's beastiality why there isn't rape and was asking for the option. Like some people are seriously so gross.
There is a bit of exaggeration, shes not like that, she wont cheat on you or anything like that. It's again just Halsin/SH shitty situation. Dark justicar route fits poly though. Selunite obviously not.
I wouldn't necessarily say it fits poly, more so just casual sex. But that is in line with sharran teachings so of course SH would embrace it as a dark justiciar.
Selune isn't Sune or Sharess, but there's no indication she's monogamous either. Aylin never mentions her father, and I bet she has half siblings.
Shadowheart's behaviour implies that she is monogamous. She will deny any poly offer in act1-2 and act like she only needs your character anyway(specifics you can check in first post of this thread), selunite Shadowheart that is. Its almost like she got shoehorned into all that stuff with Halsin(I think devs knew that majority of players will redeem her anyway or didnt separate shar/selune route for her or they forgot or it may be even bug).
My original point though was how we are forced into this situation with Halsin if we choose to date SH or Astarion. Halsin can be romanced without SH and Astarion.
So you can bring Halsin and SH to the drow twins and it won't turn into an orgy if Halsin is solo romanced. He doesn't offer her to join, neither does she try to join. Because she isn't interested in him. So why does it turn into an orgy if I date SH alone? It's so forced and gross, I hate it.
It seems player agency is respected with a solo Halsin romance but isn't respected in the slightest with SH.
Because she wasn't designed for Karlach, only Halsin. God forbid we got to actually choose who we have an open relationship with, if that's what is mutually consented upon by SH and the player. But nope, only Halsin. It's the Halsin show.
Karlach would have been perfect too. There's no female option for players who are straight men or lesbian.
Shadowheart and Karlach would make more sense and just be better overall. Doesn't feel shoehorned in, Despite herself, Shadowheart, saying that seems natural. Karlach does also come of with her as a battle sis (bro?) too, they bond, when entering the Blighted Village they speak about something etc.
Not a fan of poly or sharing with Halsin or anybody else, i just hope they remove Halsin interactions if you are not romancing him.
Same, people are now asking for more poly options and all I want is a way to talk to her about being exclusive together and if your character is as important to her as she says for her to reciprocate those feelings.
I see two possible outcomes here. 1. They change nothing 2. It's a giant monkey paw situation where instead of allowing you to be monogamous with Shadowheart no strings attached they double down on the poly stuff and have her start acting like Halsin
2. It's a giant monkey paw situation where instead of allowing you to be monogamous with Shadowheart no strings attached they double down on the poly stuff and have her start acting like Halsin
Talk about self-destructive.
Personally, I'd prefer that all the poly stuff be removed completely from the game. it's a complete mess. But I agree that they're unlikely to do that.
I regret typing that at all now I put the idea out there in the world and now it might happen. I would actually be devastated if they did that I'm way more invested in this fictional character than any person should be.
Yeah i to would like they remove poly, as i said previously, they chose two most damaged characters for poly, after everything SH went through (brainwashing, memory wipes, losing parents) i don't see how poly and sharing is healthy for her, i would think she would prefer stable relationship, especially as she stated in previous 2 acts that she is against sharing.
Also Halsin himself should see how emotionally broken/vulnerable she is, for somebody so old and wise.
Every patch they fail to fix this, we need to file a bug report. Maybe if enough of us keep pestering them they'll actually do something. Let's not give up just yet
You're right it gives off the vibe that she's being taken advantage of by him, which isn't in line with his character in act 1-2. I know she isn't a real person but these stories/situations affect people in the real world.
I'd like to believe that most ppl want more intimacy and loving scenes in game with their partner, not a porno. But sometimes I see the most disturbing comments and it certainly challenges that belief lol
I still can't believe someone asked to include rape.. wtf lol
If this were to even get addressed it'll take a very long time. For now, best to just keep chattin' about it.
There are much bigger issues they need to address first anyway. Like portionbeans (may he return after his unfortunate vacation) pointing out that there is an entire dialogue path for her completely missing from the game because of dialogue she has at the start of the game not returning after having talked to her once, while it is clearly intended to be another 'How am I holding up' type option. Something they, by the way, should REALLY introduce for all companions, not just Shadowheart and Halsin. The writer seriously thought it through properly, credit where it's due.
And act 3 having plenty of other wrong triggers causing dialogues not to happen, or giving the wrong ones. And this applies for all companions.
Plus, I'd rather get more companion content for act 3 in general before they start working on changing the content that we do have. Ignoring Halsin for now is a very small price to pay.
EDIT: And then I read something like Cowoline's story in the Halsin thread and suddenly I think changing these Halsin incident interactions is worth being bumped up on the priority list again.
I went back to try and find the post from portionbeans but I gave up after a while. It must be way further back. I'm definitely curious what this dialogue path could be? Did portionbeans mention what was said in the dialogue?
Yeah I agree, I bet that would make for some interesting dialogue. I imagine early on lae'zel's responses to "how am I holding up?" being hilarious lol
I dunno this Halsin stuff is very annoying so I'd like it to be fixed asap. A lot of it probably includes the wrong triggers as well anyway. It's the least they could do.
I could go for some more camp interactions in act 3, including the companions, and even with each other. By then they should feel a lot more comfortable with one another, so them hanging out together feels realistic. Right now they feel like mannequins just standing around looking straightforward, it's really off-putting lol
And of course I would never say no to some cuddling with romantic partner. Oh and hugging, including friends. All of them need lots of hugs.
Or when she tells you with a smile about telling bedtime tales to future children?
Very offtopic but when the hell does she ever talk about the bedtime tale for children? Never seen that dialogue.
At the start of the game you have a dialogue option that says "What do you think of all that's happened to us so far?" which then opens up to more questions. The problem is the first time you ask this it turns in "I want to talk to you about all that's happened to us so far" and you never get to ask her that again and has less options and you can only ask her how you're holding up to her estimations. If you go the entire game while not asking her "What do you think of all that's happened to us so far?" she'll say that some time into act 3 when you finally do ask her. Probably a bug or something.
^- that. It's from the Halsin thread. At the start of the game, it's just her being sassy as always. Apparently it turns into.. well, the screenshot. That's quite the development for something that you can literally ask her about 2 seconds after meeting her on the beach and never, ever see again. It would not have been written to develop so much if it wasn't meant to be a dialogue option more frequently available. I don't think he accounted for people going 100 hours of not asking her a question. But some madlad/lass did, and now we know.
It's too bad you can only get that scene in such a specific way. That has to be a bug, surely. I always play female characters, so I wonder if that scene would still play, given they're same sex couple.
I wish there was a scene of the githyanki egg hatching (if you took it) with SH and MC having big smiles on their faces. It really feels like wasted potential. But then again, I could say that of a lot things in this game tbh lol
It's too bad you can only get that scene in such a specific way. That has to be a bug, surely. I always play female characters, so I wonder if that scene would still play, given they're same sex couple.
I wish there was a scene of the githyanki egg hatching (if you took it) with SH and MC having big smiles on their faces. It really feels like wasted potential. But then again, I could say that of a lot things in this game tbh lol
I don't see a reason it wouldn't play as female. Yenna is a very easy option for adoption, for example. And Jaheira already has a small army of her own, so it's not exactly uncommon.
It's too bad you can only get that scene in such a specific way. That has to be a bug, surely. I always play female characters, so I wonder if that scene would still play, given they're same sex couple.
I wish there was a scene of the githyanki egg hatching (if you took it) with SH and MC having big smiles on their faces. It really feels like wasted potential. But then again, I could say that of a lot things in this game tbh lol
I don't see a reason it wouldn't play as female. Yenna is a very easy option for adoption, for example. And Jaheira already has a small army of her own, so it's not exactly uncommon.
Yeah adoption is an option but "in a family way" literally means pregnant.
Yeah adoption is an option but "in a family way" literally means pregnant.
True but telling the children implies.. well, any children really. But they might've added a different version of it, indeed. There are other scenarios where that has happened in the writing.
i don't see how poly and sharing is healthy for her, i would think she would prefer stable relationship,
I'm staying out of this thread and these topics until I have a more complete experience of the game itself and can talk with less ignorance, but I did want to just wave a small representative hand here to say that these things are not, at all, mutually exclusive.
Intimate relationships involving more than two people are just that, and they can cover the spectrum of good to bad, healthy to unhealthy, the same as any other relationship can; most unhealthy ones fall apart quickly, because the need for good communication and consideration for and with your partners is multiplied. That larian chooses (or seems to be choosing, judging from other people's descriptions - as I mention, I've little first hand experience with the game yet) some of the most unhealthy, predatory and toxic stereotypes for polyamorous relationships turns what might have been welcome representation in media into another instance of destructive stereotyping that does more harm than good.
Yeah there's plenty of healthy polyamorous relationships out there. It's important we remember to be respectful of that. When it comes to the game, I'm not too sure...
It's from my understanding that polyamory is about romantic relationships, rather than casual sex/open relationships being about sex only? So in a way, from what we've seen, neither SH or Halsin would be considered polyamorous at all.
In the Halsin forum, one of the complaints was how Halsin seemed to be disgusted with the word "relationship" which disappointed those who obviously want a relationship with him. So it all just screams casual to me. I'm no expert though.
It's too bad you can only get that scene in such a specific way. That has to be a bug, surely. I always play female characters, so I wonder if that scene would still play, given they're same sex couple.
I wish there was a scene of the githyanki egg hatching (if you took it) with SH and MC having big smiles on their faces. It really feels like wasted potential. But then again, I could say that of a lot things in this game tbh lol
There is also some fun banter between Wyll and SH later in the game with specific conditions
Did not get it to play out myself, but I guess conditions should be saving her parents and let her talk to her father at camp about lycanthropy
It's too bad you can only get that scene in such a specific way. That has to be a bug, surely. I always play female characters, so I wonder if that scene would still play, given they're same sex couple.
I wish there was a scene of the githyanki egg hatching (if you took it) with SH and MC having big smiles on their faces. It really feels like wasted potential. But then again, I could say that of a lot things in this game tbh lol
There is also some fun banter between Wyll and SH later in the game with specific conditions
Did not get it to play out myself, but I guess conditions should be saving her parents and let her talk to her father at camp about lycanthropy
I'm almost positive this one isn't in the game whether it was cut or bugged. I've tried on multiple occasions to get it to trigger and it never happens. Hell, I can't get her to banter with Wyll at all in act not just say that line
The line suggests that SH might be pregnant with wolf cubs? I'm not understanding the context... please tell me it doesn't involve Halsin or imma vomit
The line suggests that SH might be pregnant with wolf cubs? I'm not understanding the context... please tell me it doesn't involve Halsin or imma vomit
No, her father is werewolf. If you save her parents you can chose her and talk with her father in camp, there is an option to ask "If you are werewolf, does that mean that I can be one too?", he will respond that chances are 50/50, but she hasnt shown any sympthoms yet, so he is 99% positive that she is normal. So I guess its more of a funny thing Wyll acknowledging that and commenting on Tav/SH relationship (because if she is werewolf that means that her kids have 50/50 chances aswell. "Our friend" line usually refers to Tav in banters)
Ohhh I see, yeah I remember hearing about SH father being a werewolf too. That's really funny. Though I don't understand how everybody knows everyone's business lol Like even things behind closed doors everyone knows about?
I considered it being because of the tadpoles but Halsin, Jaheira and Minsc don't have them so I dunno. And I thought Shadowheart valued being discreet lmao
Every patch they fail to fix this, we need to file a bug report. Maybe if enough of us keep pestering them they'll actually do something. Let's not give up just yet
Surely at this point we could attempt Reddit post with in-depth analysis of the problem. It wouldnt hurt, right?
I found another workaround if you want Halsin around for his role in the story in act 1 and 2, but don't want his creepy and disturbing presence in act 3:
After he rescues Thaniel from the Shadowfell, but before you re-unite Thaniel with Oliver, you can kill Halsin and he remains permanently dead and cannot be resurrected. But you will still lift the Shadow Curse after defeating Ketheric. My party is now happily moving along towards Baldur's Gate with Halsin somewhere in a crate at the Last Light Inn and he won't bother anyone in act 3.
I dunno there's a lot of Halsin simps on there and they don't take too kindly to us in those parts. But you can definitely try. Hopefully they'll be willing to listen to reason this time, though I'm not counting on it tbh.
I'll have to do that in my next playthrough. I killed him in the goblin camp so unfortunately won't be lifting the shadow curse. The barrel idea is brilliant. Halsins corpse has just been lying around in the middle of camp lol
I dunno there's a lot of Halsin simps on there and they don't take too kindly to us in those parts. But you can definitely try. Hopefully they'll be willing to listen to reason this time, though I'm not counting on it tbh.
So they support his "predatory" behaviour regardless of player's choice? Where is the voice of reason ?
Every patch they fail to fix this, we need to file a bug report. Maybe if enough of us keep pestering them they'll actually do something. Let's not give up just yet
Surely at this point we could attempt Reddit post with in-depth analysis of the problem. It wouldnt hurt, right?
I would say there is more sense to leave feedback via Larian official resources, like support tickets or their discord feedback channel. Posts like this usually don't do well on Reddit anyway.
There are numerous fetishes Halsin represents and some people find him hot. They don't care if the situations makes sense. They like that it's a porn game. Some people are very shallow.
When we bring up an issue, they lose their minds and become very protective.
There are numerous fetishes Halsin represents and some people find him hot. They don't care if the situations makes sense. They like that it's a porn game. Some people are very shallow.
When we bring up an issue, they lose their minds and become very protective.
There are a lot of points that can be discussed around this situation like behaviour out of character or lack of agency in solo Halsin's romance ending, but 1 point is just undeniable in my opinion is that you cant stop his "advancements" by outright telling him "NO"(other than killing him somehow).
No digs at others, please. That includes calling people who have different preferences than you do “shallow”. Or anyone who disagrees with the assessment that the behaviour shown by Halsin is toxic a “simp”.
Please try to keep this discussion friendly and open to differing points of view. As a neutral observer who doesn’t have strong feelings about Shadowheart or Halsin, I feel it’s in danger of becoming an echo chamber where anyone who might have a different view than a number of vocal and repetitive posters is shouted down and excluded. Let’s avoid that.
I definitely don't disagree with you. Unfortunately, there's a lot of Halsin fans that only seem to care about the superficial. They have a big bear man they can have orgies with and that's all that matters to them.
There are numerous fetishes Halsin represents and some people find him hot. They don't care if the situations makes sense. They like that it's a porn game. Some people are very shallow.
When we bring up an issue, they lose their minds and become very protective.
There are a lot of points that can be discussed around this situation like behaviour out of character or lack of agency in solo Halsin's romance ending, but 1 point is just undeniable in my opinion is that you cant stop his "advancements" by outright telling him "NO"(other than killing him somehow).
Yes, include my breakdown from the other thread with the obvious connections to rape culture:
1. He acts as if he is entitled to sex and takes rejection as a personal insult 2. He assumes consent and approaches sexual discussions with the mindset that everyone's default state is that they want to have sex with him 3. He persists trying to convince people to have sex after they have said no, switching from jovial charm to other more manipulative and insidious tactics 4. He blames his victim for making him horny and gaslights them by re-framing previous interactions as them leading him on
I really can't deal with the condescending nature of reddit-culture, as you may have seen I don't respond well to such tone. But feel free to make use of my feedback and comments, I think they are very clear and written to be undeniably factual (feel free to disagree though).
No digs at others, please. That includes calling people who have different preferences than you do “shallow”. Or anyone who disagrees with the assessment that the behaviour shown by Halsin is toxic a “simp”.
Please try to keep this discussion friendly and open to differing points of view. As a neutral observer who doesn’t have strong feelings about Shadowheart or Halsin, I feel it’s in danger of becoming an echo chamber where anyone who might have a different view than a number of vocal and repetitive posters is shouted down and excluded. Let’s avoid that.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
I definitely don't disagree with you. Unfortunately, there's a lot of Halsin fans that only seem to care about the superficial. They have a big bear man they can have orgies with and that's all that matters to them.
I definitely don't disagree with you. Unfortunately, there's a lot of Halsin fans that only seem to care about the superficial. They have a big bear man they can have orgies with and that's all that matters to them.
But as it stands "mono" players are actual victims at this point, because even with proposed changes it wouldnt change anything for this type of players.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
I found another workaround if you want Halsin around for his role in the story in act 1 and 2, but don't want his creepy and disturbing presence in act 3:
After he rescues Thaniel from the Shadowfell, but before you re-unite Thaniel with Oliver, you can kill Halsin and he remains permanently dead and cannot be resurrected. But you will still lift the Shadow Curse after defeating Ketheric. My party is now happily moving along towards Baldur's Gate with Halsin somewhere in a crate at the Last Light Inn and he won't bother anyone in act 3.
Just tested and there is reliable workaround to remove him from your group at the start of act3. Just bully him out with melee attacks till he leaves.
It was hillarious, I unequipped my weapon(since im fighter) and just repedeatly hit him with my unarmed strike while continuously healing him with SH until he got mad and left permanently. Every 3 hits his approval drops by 10, at -50 he left.
Do you guys think Tav is SH's first long term relationship?
Doesnt she say it herself at some point? I remember her saying this(or something liek that) at some point. And before that she was sharran and it was pretty much prohibitted, no? Plus constant memory wiping.
Do you guys think Tav is SH's first long term relationship?
For sure, considering Shar worship forbids such relationships. I think the only other candidate for a long term relationship she could have had was Nocturne but their relationship seemed platonic to me.
I can't remember, I might have missed that. It seems likely given how shars teachings reject love and encourage casual sex only. Plus, I don't recall anything to suggest she had any secret lover. I could be wrong though.
It seems odd to me that, given it's her first loving long term relationship, that she would want to make it an open relationship so soon (or at all). Like the day after they consumate their relationship, she's like down to have an orgy. That doesn't seem healthy at all lol
It seems odd to me that, given it's her first loving long term relationship, that she would want to make it an open relationship so soon (or at all). Like the day after they consumate their relationship, she's like down to have an orgy. That doesn't seem healthy at all lol
Thats again about character's behaviour that seems out of her character. But to me its acceptable, because it is fully on you("If YOU are comfortable with sharing...so am I").
Yeah that's fair. I still think her disapproval with rejecting Halsin is odd. You'd think she would care more about your comfort and consent.
Jumping into an open relationship so soon seems super unrealistic to me too. Though I suppose thise game has a lot of unrealistic stuff in it.
She wont disapprove or say anything if you change your mind about drow-twin encounter even if you say it last moment in their room, so she does care. So yes, its just Halsin thing.
He really seems to get a lot of special treatment.
It's sad the way SH reacts if you cheat on her with Mizora. Like she's so insecure and has basically nobody to turn to (especially if you kill her parents) so she just accepts it so she doesn't lose you.
The drow twins, Halsin, Mizora all if these things she's just willing to do/accept, if you are. It kind of feels like she has no boundaries of her own. She doesn't want to lose you and is so insecure, so she'll do anything. And in a way, if you go through with these things it feels like the relationship becomes toxic, in my opinion.
He really seems to get a lot of special treatment.
It's sad the way SH reacts if you cheat on her with Mizora. Like she's so insecure and has basically nobody to turn to (especially if you kill her parents) so she just accepts it so she doesn't lose you.
The drow twins, Halsin, Mizora all if these things she's just willing to do/accept, if you are. It kind of feels like she has no boundaries of her own. She doesn't want to lose you and is so insecure, so she'll do anything. And in a way, if you go through with these things it feels like the relationship becomes toxic, in my opinion.
Well she is insecure about it, even in her ending scene. She wants to stay with you obviously(I prefer
parents dead
version) and relieves when you say im with you. You can even chose mean options and she will still say something along: I ll be easy to find in case you change your mind. As I said before her romance is very sweet and 1 of my favorite(or the most) overall in all the games that I played. We just need Halsin thing to be resolved and it will be literally perfect, at least for me.
I can't believe thats all she says if you reject her at the end and are mean to her. Like after everything you two have been through that's all? Lol that's so weird. Is she even upset about it?
He really seems to get a lot of special treatment.
It's sad the way SH reacts if you cheat on her with Mizora. Like she's so insecure and has basically nobody to turn to (especially if you kill her parents) so she just accepts it so she doesn't lose you.
The drow twins, Halsin, Mizora all if these things she's just willing to do/accept, if you are. It kind of feels like she has no boundaries of her own. She doesn't want to lose you and is so insecure, so she'll do anything. And in a way, if you go through with these things it feels like the relationship becomes toxic, in my opinion.
Well you are free to roleplay a character that takes advantage of her insecurity, there's no rule against making morally questionable decisions (that would really spoil a lof of the freedom and choices in the game). Or you can make up whatever head cannon you want around your relationship and the choices you make and how it fits both your Tav and Shadowheart. And if you want to roleplay a character that feels that this is not a situation you want to put her in, then obviously don't do that. I personally feel that the last approach makes much more sense if my character truly cares abouth her and her well being, but everyone doesn't have to feel the way I do about it.
Jennifer did such an excellent job as VA for Shadowheart in moments where she is genuinely disappointed, sad and insecure that I do not buy that she is meant to portray any of those things during the Halsin/Twins/Mizora scenes. The only thing she sounds remotely annoyed about during the Mizora thing is you not asking first, the others she positively encourages.
So no, I still think they're all just completely out of character. However, Halsin is perfect Orin bait if he's alive until he gets more act 3 story (which might never happen), drows can just be ignored like any other NPC in act 3 and Mizora.. well you brought it on yourself, you act out of character, she acts out of character.
I can't believe thats all she says if you reject her at the end and are mean to her. Like after everything you two have been through that's all? Lol that's so weird. Is she even upset about it?
Obviously she is. But you cant just get rid of her I guess, at the meanest option possible she will just say as I wrote earlier that "In case you change your mind - I will be easy to find for you". She says that what she wants is your character though, if you chose normal lines. She says something like "Yes, I can recognize what I need when it stand right in front of me" as response to "You will find what you need, I'm sure of it".
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
Jennifer did such an excellent job as VA for Shadowheart in moments where she is genuinely disappointed, sad and insecure that I do not buy that she is meant to portray any of those things during the Halsin/Twins/Mizora scenes. The only thing she sounds remotely annoyed about during the Mizora thing is you not asking first, the others she positively encourages.
So no, I still think they're all just completely out of character. However, Halsin is perfect Orin bait if he's alive until he gets more act 3 story (which might never happen), drows can just be ignored like any other NPC in act 3 and Mizora.. well you brought it on yourself, you act out of character, she acts out of character.
Idk to me she still sound upset and there is more of acceptance thing, that she has to accept this if she wants to be with your Tav. Which again works fine and believable with her general "insecurity".
Jennifer did such an excellent job as VA for Shadowheart in moments where she is genuinely disappointed, sad and insecure that I do not buy that she is meant to portray any of those things during the Halsin/Twins/Mizora scenes. The only thing she sounds remotely annoyed about during the Mizora thing is you not asking first, the others she positively encourages.
So no, I still think they're all just completely out of character. However, Halsin is perfect Orin bait if he's alive until he gets more act 3 story (which might never happen), drows can just be ignored like any other NPC in act 3 and Mizora.. well you brought it on yourself, you act out of character, she acts out of character.
Yeah i agree, even though i still think her being ok with Tav cheating and wanting foursome with twins is out of character, that still can be explained, she was brainwashed, memory wiped all her life, she didn't experienced healthy long term relationship (only casual sex). Also as you said you brought it on yourself by cheating. So i don't mind that.
" Im case you change your mind, I will be easy to find for you" is definitely letting Tav off light after being mean to her and all the times you told her how much you want her. I figured she would be more sassy. It's not like she doesn't have that in her.
If you pick a mean option, she should have called Tav out for stringing her along the whole time, in my opinion.
But yeah the good ending with her is so precious. The whole romance is epic, I can't think of any other topping it currently.
" Im case you change your mind, I will be easy to find for you" is definitely letting Tav off light after being mean to her and all the times you told her how much you want her. I figured she would be more sassy. It's not like she doesn't have that in her.
If you pick a mean option, she should have called Tav out for stringing her along the whole time, in my opinion.
But yeah the good ending with her is so precious. The whole romance is epic, I can't think of any other topping it currently.
This reaction also can be explained that she doesn't want to "pressure" Tav(Given her insecurity and thoughts that she doesnt deserve your Tav makes sense) and just hopes that Tav will come back. I wouldn't chose it anyway.
I agree but again you can also interpret it as her not wanting to lose Tav so instead of freaking out and burning bridges she'd rather leave the door open to continuing the relationship.
I agree but again you can also interpret it as her not wanting to lose Tav so instead of freaking out and burning bridges she'd rather leave the door open to continuing the relationship.
Which makes sense considering apparently your character is the only one she ever trusted and "Shadowheart believes in you"(Act2 durge/sh romance).
I think there's a lot of hangup on the choices you don't want to make anyway.
Like people don't want to cheat on her, but they are upset about how she reacts if they do. Well, you didn't want to cheat on her in the first place, the problem only exists because you have meta-knowledge about the code and writing outside of your roleplaying choices. Non-cheating Tav never learns or knows about Shadowheart's reaction to cheating, so non-cheating Tav wouldn't really have any thoughts or concerns about it. In terms of immersiveness I don't see a problem (with the caveat about the messy Halsin situation that can happen even if you aren't looking to make those choices).
Character inconsistency and writing is a different story, it's a meta-discussion and can of course include everything you know about the character in every scenario.
And propagation of rape-culture from a character that is supposed to represent good and healthy values is a real world problem and a very important discussion, because real people matter, unlike pixels and code.
I think there's a lot of hangup on the choices you don't want to make anyway.
Like I don't want to cheat on her, but I am upset about how she reacts if I do. Well, you didn't want to cheat on her in the first place, the problem only exists because you have meta-knowledge about the code and writing outside of your roleplaying choices. Non-cheating Tav never learns or knows about Shadowheart's reaction to cheating, so non-cheating Tav wouldn't really have any thoughts or concerns about it. In terms of immersiveness I don't see a problem (with the caveat about the messy Halsin situation that can happen even if you aren't looking to make those choices).
Character inconsistency and writing is a different story, it's a meta-discussion and can of course include everything you know about the character in every scenario.
And propagation of rape-culture from a character that is supposed to represent good and healthy values is a real world problem and a very important discussion, because real people matter, unlike pixels and code.
So you want her to scream at you? Break up with you? As I said Tav is probably the most important figure in her life, think about this.
I 100% agree on Halsin. Halsin situation is just stupid and not only for SH, but Astarion/Gale romancers aswell as far as Im aware.
I phrased that completely wrong. I meant the exact opposite.
Like people (not me) don't want to cheat on her, but they are upset about how she reacts if they do? That to me isn't an immersiveness problem, possibly an inconsistency problem and not a real world problem.
I agree. I had saved before doing the Mizora scene and SH raaction just to see what would happen. But then reloaded after I found out. But if I hadn't reloaded, that would make me a cheater and I feel like most people would find cheating to be on the morally "evil" side.
And by initiating casual sex encounters with her, I feel like that would be leaning into her sharran teachings. Shar rejects love and relationships, so it would make sense for her to focus on this new relationship and experience.
But she definitely makes it easy to take advantage of her and twist her into whatever the player wants.
The whole Halsin situation just makes me nauseous tbh. It is affecting real people and it needs to change.
So you want her to scream at you? Break up with you? As I said Tav is probably the most important figure in her life, think about this.
I 100% agree on Halsin. Halsin situation is just stupid and not only for SH, but Astarion/Gale romancers aswell as far as Im aware.
At minimum, more upset. Otherwise, more akin to other companions (except Astarion, who's also retconned). Wyll being most upset makes sense, but I'd expect Karlach and Shadowheart to react similarly.
She bloody well screamed at me when finding out about something my Dark Urge Tav didn't even remember and therefore couldn't tell her, and while that was obviously a wrong trigger, it means she's capable of it.
They also didnt separate shar SH and selune SH. I would've liked selune path for full mono(which makes sense) and shar path for opposite obviously. It just fits better I think?
They also didnt separate shar SH and selune SH. I would've liked selune path for full mono(which makes sense) and shar path for opposite obviously. It just fits better I think?
Even this is hard to argue for. She's still on the Sharran path in act 1 and act 2, yet she's not open to do anything at that point, either. Lets also not forget that a certain path as Sharran Shadowheart doesn't even have a romance scene past act 1, while the complete 'unfix her' path gets it very late. How can one be open to sharing for casual sex if you never actually have it yourself.
I disagree with; Selune Mono, Shar Poly... Even if you think it "makes sense", I just disagree. I think it's fine either way Selune or Shar, but I'm just vehemently against her having an attraction towards Halsin. For several reasons of course...
I think SH and Astarion unfortunately are the only characters for which the writers could somewhat explain them being "fine" (pretending to be fine) with poly when they needed one female and one male character for Halsin. Which automatically makes them candidates for being "fine" with the drow orgy and Mizora.
I think SH and Astarion unfortunately are the only characters for which the writers could somewhat explain them being "fine" (pretending to be fine) with poly when they needed one female and one male character for Halsin. Which automatically makes them candidates for being "fine" with the drow orgy and Mizora.
Karlach's the only one that wouldn't require a lot of rewriting to be okay with it. You could argue that because she's gone soon, she might just be fine with whatever, if it's more hinted at earlier.
However, they threw the idea out of the window in act 2 for all 6 companions. To add it back in again in act 3 makes no sense, least of all for the two that need the PC the most.
I think SH and Astarion unfortunately are the only characters for which the writers could somewhat explain them being "fine" (pretending to be fine) with poly when they needed one female and one male character for Halsin. Which automatically makes them candidates for being "fine" with the drow orgy and Mizora.
I find that reasoning by Larian to be faulty. Iirc didn't they say the NPC companions weren't romancable with each other? So again rules or whatever are being bent/broken for Halsin. Every and all problems stem from Halsin, the root of all issues.
Well SH obviously gets punished for ever rejecting any of shars teachings growing up. As far as I'm aware, she prohibited love. But it's not so much that it's a shar vs selunite thing. For all we know some Selunites are also open to casual sex. But they aren't going to be punished for choosing either way.
But it makes sense that SH would want to explore this new kind of relationship (a monogamous one) that has been kept from her, due to how she was raised.
I think SH and Astarion unfortunately are the only characters for which the writers could somewhat explain them being "fine" (pretending to be fine) with poly when they needed one female and one male character for Halsin. Which automatically makes them candidates for being "fine" with the drow orgy and Mizora.
I disagree, SH and Astarion are IMO worst choices for this (maybe in her Shar route, if she doesn't find about brainwashing, torture and other stuff), this is what i wrote previously:
Originally Posted by Illiti
Yeah i to would like they remove poly, as i said previously, they chose two most damaged characters for poly, after everything SH went through (brainwashing, memory wipes, losing parents) i don't see how poly and sharing is healthy for her, i would think she would prefer stable relationship, especially as she stated in previous 2 acts that she is against sharing.
Also Halsin himself should see how emotionally broken/vulnerable she is, for somebody so old and wise.
So yeah, it really is a mess.
Somebody pointed that poly can be healthy too, but whatever is happening with Halsin is not poly, it's just casual sex, sharing, sprinkled with Halsins predatory behaviour.
That would be me. Halsin is an awful representation of what it means to be poly. And even more so with the RA.
People that are poly go so far as to have relationship contracts to make sure everyones needs are met and accepted.
Halsin cares only about his own wants, setting ultimatums and automatically assumes that because you're poly you must also be into orgys. That's not how that works.
I think SH and Astarion unfortunately are the only characters for which the writers could somewhat explain them being "fine" (pretending to be fine) with poly when they needed one female and one male character for Halsin. Which automatically makes them candidates for being "fine" with the drow orgy and Mizora.
Karlach's the only one that wouldn't require a lot of rewriting to be okay with it. You could argue that because she's gone soon, she might just be fine with whatever, if it's more hinted at earlier.
However, they threw the idea out of the window in act 2 for all 6 companions. To add it back in again in act 3 makes no sense, least of all for the two that need the PC the most.
Shadowheart looks more human than Karlach. Shitty reasoning, but not surprising.
And yeah, choosing the ones who are the most vulnerable being in a relationship is in really bad taste, especially when they say they try to handle the subject matter of their backstories with care.
Oh Gale is surprising but good for him. Still, elves do have a kinda fetish thing about them. And I'm not going to deny that I too have fell victim to this lol Shadowheart's ears so cute hehe
I assume it's because Gale's approval is so easy to get if you're playing a character even remotely good-aligned (as most folks do), he's quite friendly/funny, and he's conventionally attractive. Casual gamers looking to romance a man will probably find themselves on his route without effort.
Fun fact. You can persuade Gale into foursome with drow twins and Halsin will still insert himself in there and you cant poly romance Gale and Halsin(Gale rejects it). Not sure about approval/disapproval thing in that situation, but, correct me if im wrong, Gale will actually disapprove if you reject Halsin in foursome xd.
I assume it's because Gale's approval is so easy to get if you're playing a character even remotely good-aligned (as most folks do), he's quite friendly/funny, and he's conventionally attractive. Casual gamers looking to romance a man will probably find themselves on his route without effort.
Astarion on the other hand is a nightmare to get approval with if you don't want to be a prick to everyone, so people had to really go out of their way to romance him. Meanwhile Wyll just doesn't have enough content. You don't even really know anything's going on until he suddenly wants to dance with you in act 2.
For the ladies, Shadowheart is really easy to get approval with with the right dialogue choices but also easy to piss off. Karlach is the most straight forward on a good run and Lae'zel approval kicks off hard in the Creche if you just let her do her thing.
Originally Posted by Netav
Fun fact. You can persuade Gale into foursome with drow twins and Halsin will still insert himself in there and you cant poly romance Gale and Halsin(Gale rejects it). Not sure about approval/disapproval thing in that situation, but, correct me if im wrong, Gale will actually disapprove if you reject Halsin in foursome xd.
Far as I know, you can convince him to tag along anyway and he'll just watch or something? Poor Gale. It's disgusting, really, but at least it's the player pushing for it.
The last stats I saw had Shadowheart and Gale at #1 and #2. Astarion does seem to get more attention in the online spaces.
Those stats were right after full release. Gale's romance was triggering for people who didn't want it. It was the first noticeable glitch in the romance system. The only reason so many folks "romanced" Gale was because they didn't know they were romancing Gale and subsequently got annoyed by it.
Every patch they fail to fix this, we need to file a bug report. Maybe if enough of us keep pestering them they'll actually do something. Let's not give up just yet
Surely at this point we could attempt Reddit post with in-depth analysis of the problem. It wouldnt hurt, right?
I see a lot of excuses in the comments of that subreddit. A lot of "Its just a game, the characters aren't real, it's your tav making these choices not you", and just generally not grasping the issue.
I find people engage with content differently. Some are just there for the simple entertainment and don't look too deep into things; others seek to find a deeper meaning and are more analytical.
There's nothing wrong with either. It's just tough to agree when you simply view things from a completely different perspective.
Personally, I'm not into the gimmicks. Others are apparently.
Issues that were pointed in this topic are quite big though. It directly interferes with immersion in the game. Also, as we can see, it can cause ptsd.
How interesting that he went from fan favorite, to this, relatively quickly. You said you requested him in EA... I'm so sorry they mucked him up like this. Hopefully they'll fix him in an upcoming patch.
I doubt they'll ever remove him as a companion though, considering the effort it took to make him one.
I think the way it is often raised it tends to get dismissed as fragile people being upset that their little sweetheart can even think about someone else and it coming off as being a bit possessive (not saying that it is, keep reading).
I understand the more nuanced dimensions to this now, but I started off in this thread as the big opposing voice (sorry if I pissed some people off), but came to change my perspective entirely when it was presented to me in a factual way that could not be argued.
My personal perspective to this is that I still don't have much of a problem that Shadowheart can think of other people. I do find Halsin repulsive, due to his creepy personality, and would question Shadowheart's personal taste on this. But lots of people, including people that I have the highest respect for, find him very attractive so I guess I will accept that we can have different tastes and she can like both Tav and Halsin (though this is really inconsistent, see below). Since I dislike him so much on a personal level, I just keep him out of the party or implement one of the other many proposed solutions here to be rid off him permanently. I understand and think it is badly implemented how you can unintentionally end up in this uncomfortable situation that some have experienced because they didn't know that you had to keep him away.
I agree with all that is said about the inconsistency in writing. I think it's abundandly clear and obvious that it was shoehorned in as an afterthought. I don't even feel the need to discuss it, because to me it's basically an axiom at this point. But I can ignore the inconsistency by sticking to the decisions that keeps my consistency and immersiveness intact.
I just want the unwanted intrusion of rape-culture that you can't even challenge entirely removed or re-written, because it is so inconsiderate and hurtful towards real people. I think this would also fix most of the other problems that people have here too (since if Halsin respects boundaries and consent he wouldn't be injecting himself in this uninvited), so I am on your side here.
Is there much feedback on this topic in Larian's discord?
Not about Shadowheart per se, but there's a A LOT of posts about Halsin and his problems (and how it affects SH etc too) on the Discord. And to be fair, most of the problems regarding SH is in large due to Halsin being problematic and his execution flawed. So if anyone from Larian is reading the feedback posts there (which I assume they are since they shaved the cat pretty quick after "the outrage"), they know what people think about Halsin and they would also see how this topic gets more thumbs up than any other posts there. They're just keeping quiet about it.
I made a feedback post on discord regarding this topic. I know not everyone agrees with the shar/selunite option. It's not that selunites would be necessarily against casual sex, it's more about SH's state of mind depending on which path she takes. It's no secret that shar SH is more confident than the selunite one, given the story direction and implications.
I also noted a more general option to be able to discuss boundaries and consent with SH.
If you agree, and have discord, please upvote. It's titled Shadowheart no Halsin. Thank you.
Shadowheart romance left bitter taste in my mouth, so after her final romance scene in Act 3 she is suddenly ok with sharing and orgies (she was against it in the first 2 acts).
I would not even mind it if she was in a healthy state of mind (or Shar route if she doesn't find out about all that happened to her), but she is a woman who just found out that she was abused (brainwashed, her memory was wiped constantly, beaten, and who knows what else) for the last 30 years of her life, ever since she was a child.
Also what's with Halsin trying to worm up into your relationship, when you reject him beforehand.
In BG3 Act 3 discussion, all I've got was cuck replies (images with cuck written on them), no discussion or anything like like that.
Shadowheart romance left bitter taste in my mouth, so after her final romance scene in Act 3 she is suddenly ok with sharing and orgies (she was against it in the first 2 acts).
I would not even mind it if she was in a healthy state of mind (or Shar route if she doesn't find out about all that happened to her), but she is a woman who just found out that she was abused (brainwashed, her memory was wiped constantly, beaten, and who knows what else) for the last 30 years of her life, ever since she was a child.
Also what's with Halsin trying to worm up into your relationship, when you reject him beforehand.
In BG3 Act 3 discussion, all I've got was cuck replies (images with cuck written on them).
Yeah Larian's Discord much like reddit is a cesspool. Instead of having a real discussion about it people would rather belittle you by calling you a cuck, incel, etc.
Okay folks, let's not start having a go at other communities. After all, a number of us are members of those too. If people are responding inappropriately to posts (and frankly I think calling anyone a "cuck" is unacceptable) please report it to the moderators for those forums and leave the unpleasantness there rather than importing it here.
I am one of those, This weird a$$ old unattractive dude hitting on and taking muh girl, camp. I don't like him and his shoehorn in our camp. Idc if SH wants Karlach, but from act 1 to act 2 I've heard SH didn't like Halsin much either... Seems suspicious tbh.
Okay folks, let's not start having a go at other communities. After all, a number of us are members of those too. And it doesn't seem helpful to import arguments over here.
Ok yes, sure but I've seen the topic brought up multiple times on that Discord and that's always the way it goes.
Ok yes, sure but I've seen the topic brought up multiple times on that Discord and that's always the way it goes.
As I've edited my post above to say, I'd recommend using the Discord reporting functionality to alert moderators to users resorting to personal insults.
Shadowheart romance left bitter taste in my mouth, so after her final romance scene in Act 3 she is suddenly ok with sharing and orgies (she was against it in the first 2 acts).
I would not even mind it if she was in a healthy state of mind (or Shar route if she doesn't find out about all that happened to her), but she is a woman who just found out that she was abused (brainwashed, her memory was wiped constantly, beaten, and who knows what else) for the last 30 years of her life, ever since she was a child.
Also what's with Halsin trying to worm up into your relationship, when you reject him beforehand.
In BG3 Act 3 discussion, all I've got was cuck replies (images with cuck written on them), no discussion or anything like like that.
Hey thanks for the upvote, I appreciate it!
Part of the issue I have with Halsin, is how I take a backseat in my relationship with SH when he's around. And that's not even taking into account the orgy, where you literally are forced to watch. So yeah, we kinda do become cucks in the relationship so it's no surprise that they're calling us that. I don't personally want that for my relationship though.
I hate how heavily it is implied in this "scene". I truly want to be believe that Halsin is just bugged, because it would be ok if you were in romance with both(Because SH basically lets you to "cuck" her with Halsin and there you just return the "favor"), but if you do it without romancing him... yeah
I think they were going for a voyeurist/exhibitionist thing in that scene. But I just don't see SH being an exhibitionist given her nature. One of the things she values most "is being discreet" according to the circus dryad answers. So it's unlikely she would want a bunch of ppl watching her.
It's just nonsensical porn, just for the sake of it. And I still believe Halsin (the one in acts 1/2 anyway) wouldn't take advantage of her like that if she were to go selunite path.
I think they were going for a voyeurist/exhibitionist thing in that scene. But I just don't see SH being an exhibitionist given her nature. One of the things she values most "is being discreet" according to the circus dryad answers. So it's unlikely she would want a bunch of ppl watching her.
It's just nonsensical porn, just for the sake of it. And I still believe Halsin (the one in acts 1/2 anyway) wouldn't take advantage of her like that if she were to go selunite path.
I'm of the opinion that everything would work better if nothing had Halsin in it.
I hate how heavily it is implied in this "scene". I truly want to be believe that Halsin is just bugged, because it would be ok if you were in romance with both(Because SH basically lets you to "cuck" her with Halsin and there you just return the "favor"), but if you do it without romancing him... yeah
Fwiw it's not like you have to let Halsin join in, you can still decline him even though you have to accept all the implications afterward (the retarded disapproval). It's just that the entire scenario and everything around it is bad writing.
The best part is, you can just kill Halsin on the spot after that dialogue and literally nobody cares, not companions or NPCs. NPCs care if you kill a random refugee, but Halsin? They won't even bat an eye. Now THAT is good writing! But then Orin will kidnap someone relevant which is a shame. So eh, just never bring him along anywhere and Orin will take out the trash for you.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
I think they were going for a voyeurist/exhibitionist thing in that scene. But I just don't see SH being an exhibitionist given her nature. One of the things she values most "is being discreet" according to the circus dryad answers. So it's unlikely she would want a bunch of ppl watching her.
It's just nonsensical porn, just for the sake of it. And I still believe Halsin (the one in acts 1/2 anyway) wouldn't take advantage of her like that if she were to go selunite path.
She isn't at all. She doesn't even want to share a bottle of wine with anyone but you in act 1, if you suggest sharing it with more. She's also wondering what others will think after the swimming scene, since she knows she can't hide it having happened. And she wants your children, lol. I don't think someone's going to fuck around, or want you to fuck around, if they want kids with you. He's written her consistently enough in that regard, except these couple of scenarios.
I also don't think Halsin would go back on his word saying that he'll respect our decision either, considering he knows we can just murder him (especially as Dark Urge). But that's all just hypothetical, the game isn't even remotely that detailed, especially the low MMORPG quality act 3.
I have not watched the scene myself nor do I intend to but I have seen people talk about it and it is my understanding that even with Halsin participating in the orgy you are not being cucked unless you want it. The game gives you dialogue options to sit back and watch and she actively encourages you to knock it off and get involved.
I haven't watched it myself either but a lot of people have talked about it. This is the first time I'm hearing you actually have a choice in it. I still think the scene is nonsensical porn though.
As I've said, Shar SH would most likely be into it but I just don't see Selunite SH.
As I've said, Shar SH would most likely be into it but I just don't see Selunite SH.
Considering Shar SH never even has sex with you until the very end and even then in only 1 of 2 outcomes, it actually makes even less sense there. Nobody's going to share someone they haven't even had themselves yet. Does she even accept the drows as Sharran? Because that would be hilarious, in a bad way.
The SH we get in act 1 and most of act 2 is kind of in-between Shar/selune I think. What I mean by Shar SH is her full embrace of Shar and her teachings in act 3. Have you seen the sex scene for evil SH? It's very aggressive lol
Though I believe that scene happens after evil SH kills her parents? So that means she goes even longer without having sex with Tav. And at that point she sees you as casual too anyway.
If she sees you and Halsin as both casual then I don't see why she wouldn't share, even if she hasn't slept with you yet.
The SH we get in act 1 and most of act 2 is kind of in-between Shar/selune I think. What I mean by Shar SH is her full embrace of Shar and her teachings in act 3. Have you seen the sex scene for evil SH? It's very aggressive lol
Though I believe that scene happens after evil SH kills her parents? So that means she goes even longer without having sex with Tav. And at that point she sees you as casual too anyway.
That's what I mean. She takes her sweet time for something supposedly casual. Literally not until the very end of the game and even then she needed to think of an excuse to do so. I thought it was meant to be encouraged, not something you need an excuse for? And during the epilogue, she calls it an exception. Why would there be an exception for casual sex that is encouraged?
Ah, right, the only time it's mentioned that it's casual and encouraged is after the Mizora scene. At which point she acts out of character. Clearly we shouldn't consider everything written there as an inconsistency and not at all in line with the rest of the dialogue? /s
I've read somewhere, that you go Shar route (kill Nightsong), she is against sharing, she rejects orgy or maybe Halsin, didn't try it so i don't know, maybe whoever posted it was lying.
I've read somewhere, that you go Shar route (kill Nightsong), she is against sharing, she rejects orgy or maybe Halsin, didn't try it so i don't know, maybe whoever posted it was lying.
Throughout the game it's been hinted at that relationships and anything casual is actually looked down upon by Shar because it means you're not doing her bidding. They needed to find excuses or do it secretly. The only time this narrative is flipped upside down is when you cheat on Mizora, where the writing is inconsistent with the rest of the dialogue in the game.
This is why she doesn't do jack in act 1 and act 2. She knows Shar wouldn't approve. But she herself wants it, that's why she's conflicted between choosing you and Shar, and unhappy when you do anything with another companion.
Then you get the Nightsong choice. In act 3, you have Sharran or Selunite Shadowheart.
Both want you for themselves, so neither should want to share you whatsoever; not with Halsin, not with the drows and not with Mizora. The only difference is that the Sharran version needs to find an excuse to get down with you because she doesn't want to piss off Shar (hence she calls it an exception), whereas the Selunite version will devote her everything to you (move in together, start a family) because that's what she personally wanted all along and now Shar's not there to stop her.
The only thing that strays from his own writing here is Halsin, the drows and Mizora. Three completely avoidable and short dialogues.
Damn dude that makes a lot of sense. Her response with Mizora, Halsin, etc is directly contradictory to everything else, so no wonder it's so damn confusing and OOC.
They tried to make sense of the casual sex by going against everything stated before.. that basically confirms it's just there as porn and nothing to be taken seriously/as canon.
Throughout the game it's been hinted at that relationships and anything casual is actually looked down upon by Shar because it means you're not doing her bidding. They needed to find excuses or do it secretly. The only time this narrative is flipped upside down is when you cheat on Mizora, where the writing is inconsistent with the rest of the dialogue in the game.
This is why she doesn't do jack in act 1 and act 2. She knows Shar wouldn't approve. But she herself wants it, that's why she's conflicted between choosing you and Shar, and unhappy when you do anything with another companion.
Then you get the Nightsong choice. In act 3, you have Sharran or Selunite Shadowheart.
Both want you for themselves, so neither should want to share you whatsoever; not with Halsin, not with the drows and not with Mizora. The only difference is that the Sharran version needs to find an excuse to get down with you because she doesn't want to piss off Shar (hence she calls it an exception), whereas the Selunite version will devote her everything to you (move in together, start a family) because that's what she personally wanted all along and now Shar's not there to stop her.
The only thing that strays from his own writing here is Halsin, the drows and Mizora. Three completely avoidable and short dialogues.
Hmmm, I've never done her Shar route so I've been ignorantly saying that this sharing thing should be Shar route exclusive but after reading this you're right her willingness to share makes literally no sense regardless of what route you go with her. The whole thing SHOULD be removed but I'm sure even if a definitive edition happens they'll still keep it for inclusiveness.
Throughout the game it's been hinted at that relationships and anything casual is actually looked down upon by Shar because it means you're not doing her bidding. They needed to find excuses or do it secretly. The only time this narrative is flipped upside down is when you cheat on Mizora, where the writing is inconsistent with the rest of the dialogue in the game.
This is why she doesn't do jack in act 1 and act 2. She knows Shar wouldn't approve. But she herself wants it, that's why she's conflicted between choosing you and Shar, and unhappy when you do anything with another companion.
Then you get the Nightsong choice. In act 3, you have Sharran or Selunite Shadowheart.
Both want you for themselves, so neither should want to share you whatsoever; not with Halsin, not with the drows and not with Mizora. The only difference is that the Sharran version needs to find an excuse to get down with you because she doesn't want to piss off Shar (hence she calls it an exception), whereas the Selunite version will devote her everything to you (move in together, start a family) because that's what she personally wanted all along and now Shar's not there to stop her.
The only thing that strays from his own writing here is Halsin, the drows and Mizora. Three completely avoidable and short dialogues.
Hmmm, I've never done her Shar route so I've been ignorantly saying that this sharing thing should be Shar route exclusive but after reading this you're right her willingness to share makes literally no sense regardless of what route you go with her. The whole thing SHOULD be removed but I'm sure even if a definitive edition happens they'll still keep it for inclusiveness.
Or they just could fix Halsin situation because it's out of player's agency. So both poly and mono players will be happy. Literally nothing changes for those who want to do double romance, but those who want only Shadowheart wont get this stupid banter and drow conversation. Mizora still can be interpreted as "acceptance", remember that even in her endings she says that she will be easy to find if Tav changes their mind and she is ALWAYS soft with your Tav, so thats ok.
Oh for sure that stuff definitely needs to be fixed. There's no reason the porn stuff should be ruining the rest of our experience.
It's very clear though, based on everything stated earlier in the game, that Mizora, Halsin, and the drow twins are not actually something SH would agree to. I don't have a problem with them keeping this in, but let's not pretend like this isn't simply porn for the sake of it and OOC for her.
If it were realistic, you would get a huge hit of disapproval for cheating on her with Mizora. I know SH is vulnerable but she can still have a backbone, yet stay with Tav.
Oh for sure that stuff definitely needs to be fixed. There's no reason the porn stuff should be ruining the rest of our experience.
It's very clear though, based on everything stated earlier in the game, that Mizora, Halsin, and the drow twins are not actually something SH would agree to. I don't have a problem with them keeping this in, but let's not pretend like this isn't simply porn for the sake of it and OOC for her.
If it were realistic, you would get a huge hit of disapproval for cheating on her with Mizora. I know SH is vulnerable but she can still have a backbone, yet stay with Tav.
I would prefer at least some disapproval yes, from -3 to -5 couldve been nice. But considering how even -1 for Halsin rejection at drows conversation pisses me off idk how other players would react to this.
I mean SH in character would do this. OOC SH, like the one in the scene as it is, has no backbone. They came up with a way to justify her not caring as much as she should have, by adding all that crap about sharrans and casual sex. It contradicts the earlier stuff.
So they won't change it, because they don't want to punish the player for having sex, with disapproval... though they do punish you if refuse to have sex with Halsin. But these scenes don't really matter I suppose, because once engaged in them you are no longer following reason anyway. It's just porn.
I do think that ending scene where you're mean to her should be altered though. This is in character SH and should reflect that. Like she could say, "I'm hurt that after all the times you said you wanted me, loved me, you chose to do this. But if you change your mind, it will be easy to find me."
I can't imagine why anyone would want to break up with her though.
Can I ask folk to seriously consider whether they're adding to the debate or just repeating themselves? That's something I'd strongly discourage, especially when using potentially emotive language like describing certain scenarios as porn.
I mean SH in character would do this. OOC SH, like the one in the scene as it is, has no backbone. They came up with a way to justify her not caring as much as she should have, by adding all that crap about sharrans and casual sex. It contradicts the earlier stuff.
So they won't change it, because they don't want to punish the player for having sex, with disapproval... though they do punish you if refuse to have sex with Halsin. But these scenes don't really matter I suppose, because once engaged in them you are no longer following reason anyway. It's just porn.
I do think that ending scene where you're mean to her should be altered though. This is in character SH and should reflect that. Like she could say, "I'm hurt that after all the times you said you wanted me, loved me, you chose to do this. But if you change your mind, it will be easy to find me."
They should change her endings a little bit, ppl already pointed this out
If parents are alive her ending is strange, she ask you to be with her and if you agree(obviously) she ask to seek her out when you have free time, which is strange. In "dead parents" ending you can instantly travel together. Even mindflayer ending you travel together instantly I believe. Still the way she talks to your character in "dead parents" ending and asks you to stay with her is just sweet.
Again this situation with fivesome is strange, even bullied Gale in fivesome disapproves if you reject Halsin I think. But noone disapproves Mizora cheat except for Wyll? Some just instantly break up. Correct me if im wrong.
Yeah someone posted about that on discord feedback so hopefully that gets fixed. Like where is Tav going, why are they not joining their spouse? So confusing lol
I'm not too sure how all of them react in the scenarios with Mizora or Halsin. It doesn't seem like their characters would be into it though, based on what we know about them.
At first I thought that Halsin offers to join in drow scene even if you reject him because of some missing flag, game not recognising that you are not in relationship with him, it would be pretty common for act 3, for example I would get Gale talking about deal with Raphael before even meeting him in Sharess' Caress. So I did a little research (I promise it was for science) and watched on youtube every companion reaction to poly and then their reactions to drow offer. And guess what? There is no way to be in relation with both Gale and Halsin, because Gale refuses to do poly, but Halsin will still ask to join in drow scene. So him asking to join with PC and Shadowheart even after you reject him is almost for sure intended and not bugged, he just cannot stop himself when he see those twins. So I don't know about you guys, but for me SH/Halsin is canon
At first I thought that Halsin offers to join in drow scene even if you reject him because of some missing flag, game not recognising that you are not in relationship with him, it would be pretty common for act 3, for example I would get Gale talking about deal with Raphael before even meeting him in Sharess' Caress. So I did a little research (I promise it was for science) and watched on youtube every companion reaction to poly and then their reactions to drow offer. And guess what? There is no way to be in relation with both Gale and Halsin, because Gale refuses to do poly, but Halsin will still ask to join in drow scene. So him asking to join with PC and Shadowheart even after you reject him is almost for sure intended and not bugged, he just cannot stop himself when he see those twins. So I don't know about you guys, but for me SH/Halsin is canon
Oh yes a single piece of optional content that you have to go so far out of your way to even trigger and that 90% of people romancing Shadowheart will never see makes them canon. What an absolutely asinine thing to say.
Well, I was kinda joking with it being canon, forgot that you need to use /s on the internet, before baldurs gate 4 (if it ever happens) we won't know what is and what isn't canon. It is just funny how unstoppable Halsin is written to be
I read through pretty much the whole thread and I disagree pretty much entirely with the title itself. The real problem is just that however the dialogue is coded, the portrayals of Halsin and Shadowheart BOTH suffer tremendously for Halsin's forced involvement in a Shadowheart romance if he has explicitly been rejected. That should be changed. The rest I look back to papercut's post on page 7, Shadowheart's writing is otherwise totally fine (though I do miss the barbs from Early Access). It adjusts slightly pending the choices of the individual (as does the contextual reading of certain interactions), and there's nothing wrong or unrealistic about that.
I don't see a reason anything needs to change (on Shadowheart's end) except the rejected Halsin interactions. It all checks out to me otherwise.
I read through pretty much the whole thread and I disagree pretty much entirely with the title itself. The real problem is just that however the dialogue is coded, the portrayals of Halsin and Shadowheart BOTH suffer tremendously for Halsin's forced involvement in a Shadowheart romance if he has explicitly been rejected. That should be changed. The rest I look back to papercut's post on page 7, Shadowheart's writing is otherwise totally fine (though I do miss the barbs from Early Access). It adjusts slightly pending the choices of the individual (as does the contextual reading of certain interactions), and there's nothing wrong or unrealistic about that.
I don't see a reason anything needs to change (on Shadowheart's end) except the rejected Halsin interactions. It all checks out to me otherwise.
Pretty much everyone agrees that at the very least the interactions after declining Halsin needs to go. The rest are thankfully avoidable. However, saying the rest checks out is just insulting to the overall writing of the game. Indulge me as to how the following makes sense to you.
Shadowheart: Hits on Karlach throughout act 1, regardless of Tav's romance, but isn't interested in a poly relationship with Karlach and Tav and will therefore break up with Tav even if asked for, while during act 1 it is heavily hinted at that Karlach would be fine with it. Not interested in a poly relationship with any other origin companion either. Also Shadowheart: Has a neutral relationship with Halsin in act 1 and act 2, turned antagonistic during the Gauntlet of Shar, and will never comment about any kind of interest in Halsin if Tav does not romance her. Yet is not just willing but actively encourages a poly relationship with Halsin. Somehow instantly knows Tav is talking about Halsin the second exclusivity of the relationship is mentioned and even trying to back out makes her encourage it instead.
Shadowheart: Claims that relationships, casual sex and the like are discouraged under Shar because they distract from worship, and claims they had to do it in secret or find an excuse just to have an intimate moment together in the cloister. Therefore, she (Sharran version) needs to find excuses to have intimate moments with Tav, and calls them exceptions, despite still loving Tav. Ultimately calls it off because she knows it's not sustainable. Also Shadowheart: Says casual sex was encouraged under Shar after Tav cheats with Mizora, as an excuse for her being okay with it.
Shadowheart: Claims multiple times that she wants to spend the rest of her life with Tav. Wants children with Tav. Fully devotes herself to Tav. Also Shadowheart: When cheated on, apparently never expected that love to be reciprocated, claiming that she expected it to happen because Tav is 'not a swan'.
Maybe I should clarify more, I was saying nothing else needs to be changed in the sense of the people asking for more than rejected Halsin's interactions to be removed like the demands for the dialogue with the Twins to be inaccessible if you somehow tell the game you're pure monogamous. The greater discussion about polyamory, which is another thread entirely, yes, that content could use a LOT more work to improve. But I figure this thread isn't generally about that.
Hello and good day to everyone as someone who spent her 550 hours to game and mostly romanced shadowheart during that i wanted to share what im thinking about this subject. First of all ive read lots of frustration here comes from how players are attracted to her. I hope what im going to say will help.
1- If you are really following monogamus route, you wont hear or know about the fetishes of Shadowheart. Ive played many times, didnt get Goblin kiss my foot, shoo others who tried to come close to me. By never upping Halsins relationship with me ( basically never talked to him except he came to camp and finding thaniel) ,he never talked about how he likes me etc. In Act 2 i brought him with me and he was even mean to Shadowheart. (Animal noises banter). I will talk about drow scene after that.
2- I write this because mostly monogamus players critisized the choice here. Excuse me, what are you doing in brothel with your love interest if you are monogamus? You only go there to complete quests. Drows are not meant for you. You saw the opportunity and got punished by Halsin scene and now your feelings hurt? Again im telling this for monogamus users.
3-Youll know about Shadowhearts dream and fantasies when you share her with drows, youll learn who actually saw in her dream if you do it with Halsin. Ive played a tiefling lady, shadowheart actually let me have halsin first by her kindness. So i awarded her genereousity by letting her use my boytoy in brothel while i watch. That beach banter of Halsin made me smile even since we both enjoyed our times with him. Even though he likes me more and SH is not happy hes kisisng me like that xD
4- Halsin is not a threat to both kind of relationship. Going to drows will open poly way. So Halsins ai thinks its a Poly way with him because only poly relationship in the game with Shadowheart or Astarion.
5- Halsins beach banter with monogamus run should be a bug just like followers talk to wyll about being devil before he actually turns one. Or Gale talking about what to do in baldurs gate while in act 3 (It should happen in act 1). If not thats just another banter i wouldnt take it serious. That guy couldnt defend his grove and got caught by Goblins. It was me who saved them. He needs to be jelaous of me not other way arround.
6- About you get 2 disapproval from them is about how game thinks you are on poly way so it triggered Halsin into it. By that scene youre basically leading them on. And by refusing it turning them cold at the last moment. Ofc theyd disapprove :p
7- And lastly youll know mildly about Shadowhearts desires on good route. She showed interest to larger people like Karlach and Halsin, she says she has weakness for confident people but they usually disappoint her at the end. She also likes witty people. On monogamus you wont even know about her dreams as it should be. She wont talk to you about what she she in her dreams etc. Let the girl dream. We could be seeing a dream about riding Karlach to sunset and wake up and contunie our romance with Shadowheart. Thats what im going to say. No need to be upset about anything.
3-Youll know about Shadowhearts dream and fantasies when you share her with drows, youll learn who actually saw in her dream if you do it with Halsin. Ive played a tiefling lady, shadowheart actually let me have halsin first by her kindness. So i awarded her genereousity by letting her use my boytoy in brothel while i watch. That beach banter of Halsin made me smile even since we both enjoyed our times with him. Even though he likes me more and SH is not happy hes kisisng me like that xD
4- Halsin is not a threat to both kind of relationship. Going to drows will open poly way. So Halsins ai thinks its a Poly way with him because only poly relationship in the game with Shadowheart or Astarion.
5- Halsins beach banter with monogamus run should be a bug just like followers talk to wyll about being devil before he actually turns one. Or Gale talking about what to do in baldurs gate while in act 3 (It should happen in act 1). If not thats just another banter i wouldnt take it serious. That guy couldnt defend his grove and got caught by Goblins. It was me who saved them. He needs to be jelaous of me not other way arround.
6- About you get 2 disapproval from them is about how game thinks you are on poly way so it triggered Halsin into it. By that scene youre basically leading them on. And by refusing it turning them cold at the last moment. Ofc theyd disapprove :p
Poor excuse. If my character turned him down in his poly proposal, its none of his business what my character is gonna do or with whom share bed. Who does he think he is? My character told him that I dont want you. That means that I can do whatever I want (for example propose Astation or Karlach or Withers in this drow scene, its still none of his business) and he shouldnt interfere as I turned him down.
Because he isnt coded as complex as we think about relationships. As i said before you can avoid it by simply not talking to him unless needed. Theres another druid in your camp if you need one. Dont get to know him and he wont talk about anything.
But it is still the thing that should be fixed then? It is the same workaround as "just kill him lmao", so you dont get to know him or anything. There are ppl who will run into this Halsin behaviour on accident anyway, just like I did. I had no idea and got randomly shoved this banter in my face and drows thing. I literally was checking Shadowheart's reaction in drows convo. Also do not mistake poly relationships with literal sex workers. I repeat its none of his business if I want to spice up things with Shadowheart.
Ive already explained it. Its how game thinks youre on poly way with Halsin because Drows unlocks it ( If you have high relation with him ). Plus if you dont bring halsin it goes 2 on 2. Means youre already spicing on things. For me Halsin never came there unless i wanted him to. And its perfectly normal hed want something like that if you have high approval with both of them since hes the open one. Game thinks youre okay to share SH with him and she goes along the way.
Ive already explained it. Its how game thinks youre on poly way with Halsin because Drows unlocks it ( If you have high relation with him ). Plus if you dont bring halsin it goes 2 on 2. Means youre already spicing on things. For me Halsin never came there unless i wanted him to. And its perfectly normal hed want something like that if you have high approval with both of them since hes the open one. Game thinks youre okay to share SH with him and she goes along the way.
I've tested and he proposes himself at 0 approval. Just dont bring Halsin is not an excuse. Poly=/="spicing up things with drow sexworkers", so tell me how the hell it "unlocks" poly instead of accepting Halsin proposal for example? How does this make any sense at all in your eyes
Because theyve only used 1 flag there. True and false. Is halsin there? True. Is Sh there? True. Is sh and tav in relationship? True. Thats it. It means theyre on poly relationship so itll either go to 5 some or disapproval. What they need to do is being spesific here. If you insist bringing Halsin :p. Like ıf youve refused Halsin which can lead on ok if you dont want it SH wants it you watch us perform. Or like youve spoke to him telling you wont share. Itll activate and will keep Halsin out of it. No need to think more spesific really. Just dont let those two come together because game is mistaking it as couple.
Of course. It was all for thirsty players. Theyve needed more money. I personally just dont let it happen because i know its added later on the original story. Im all fine by SH s past endeavors. Many people uses that kinda games for fetish fishing.
But thats exactly the problem that needs to be fixed then ? All I see is that you are trying to find excuses like: "oh its jsut high approval thing", "oh shes into Karlach/Halsin type(then comment or have something extra if your character has muscluar body type?)", "oh its just drow twins convo makes game instantly think that you went poly way", "oh just dont bring Halsin" etc.
Originally Posted by Shellybon
If you insist bringing Halsin :p. Like ıf youve refused Halsin which can lead on ok if you dont want it SH wants it you watch us perform.
Amazing, thats what we need really. Just imagine, you never spoke to Halsin and went to sharess caress, explored as usual and came across those Drows and all of a sudden Shadowheart will just cuck and cheat on you? Amazing idea, top tier writing. Ima vomit.
Originally Posted by Shellybon
Or like youve spoke to him telling you wont share. Itll activate and will keep Halsin out of it. No need to think more spesific really. Just dont let those two come together because game is mistaking it as couple.
But thats one of the points in this thread though? Remove this interaction for monogamist players maybe(and swimming banter)? Literally nothing changes for poly players.
As i said before i dont mind his sand banter during monogamus run. He can thirst , im getting the girl. When i dont visit drows nothing bad happens. It stays like how Gale and Wyll tried to hit on her.
Which is fine if yuou can ignore Halsin's obviously lack of consent despite preaching the obvious. /shudders
Also, there is a difference between her flirting in the start of the game, where everyone doesn't know each other, and when it is an established relationship - and the one who she is flirting with is someone you turned down.
I love Halsin, but they turned him into a predator.
As i said before i dont mind his sand banter during monogamus run. He can thirst , im getting the girl. When i dont visit drows nothing bad happens. It stays like how Gale and Wyll tried to hit on her.
Is this avoidable? Yes, to some extent. Can this be stumbled across by unsuspecting players? Yes, I am an example(I am here because I randomly ran into this on my playthrough). Does this ruin experience for some players(majority I would say)? Yes. Should it be fixed in some way or another? Absolutely. As were pointed before in this thread(and others, like parallel thread about Halsin) that basically Halsin is in fact catalyst of this whole situation. Bugged or bad writing, doesnt matter. His behaviour is unacceptable and should be fixed in upcoming patches.
Is it me who didnt get that? Like i didnt spoke Halsin a lot in my monogamus run. He didnt said anything about having feelings for me. Then SH didnt said anything about him. Saw sand banter and said yeah dream on old man. Afterwards thats that. There was only me and her.
In my tiefling sorcerer girl run ive had romance with SH and Halsin said he has feelings for me. I told to Sh and she said shes fine with it and wants to hear about it later. So i brought her to drows so shed enjoy him as well. After that sand banter was funny because he was like daddy bear for us. It was good to explore SH's fantasies that way.
Long storys short SH will be whoever you want her to be. She will keep her fantasies to herself if you dont go into flings. game is not complex enough to understand relationships especially when drows involved. It still thinks you gonna share SH even you dont intended to. Drows are the key. Monogamus users stay away from them :p
Because first run who i really was. Second one is looking at what the game could offer. Im normally very jelaous and it also really bothered me when she flirted him that way. So ive found out the reasons and trying to explain the ways of avoiding it for others. Think it as a tip. So people wouldnt feel frustrated.
Is it me who didnt get that? Like i didnt spoke Halsin a lot in my monogamus run. He didnt said anything about having feelings for me. Then SH didnt said anything about him. Saw sand banter and said yeah dream on old man. Afterwards thats that. There was only me and her.
In my tiefling sorcerer girl run ive had romance with SH and Halsin said he has feelings for me. I told to Sh and she said shes fine with it and wants to hear about it later. So i brought her to drows so shed enjoy him as well. After that sand banter was funny because he was like daddy bear for us. It was good to explore SH's fantasies that way.
Long storys short SH will be whoever you want her to be. She will keep her fantasies to herself if you dont go into flings. game is not complex enough to understand relationships especially when drows involved. It still thinks you gonna share SH even you dont intended to. Drows are the key. Monogamus users stay away from them :p
Yes, just stay away from content. With your logic we should get big warning board around Halsin that says: "DONT TALK TO THIS MAN IF YOU ARE DOING MONOGAMOUS RUN". Also at sharess caress I guess/ And I agree that she is supposed to be flexible, but also game should respect player's choice and deciding factor should be not a drow convo, but Halsin himself should be changed to respect player's choice. Remember that this guy proposes himself even at 0 approval(I am pretty sure he does this anyway at negative approval) regardless if you are in romance with him or not, which is terrible.
As you described it is actually what you suppose to think when you do poly run and pretty much everyone is ok with that. And not taking Halsin around is a poor excuse for mono run. "Game recognizes either you poly or mono at drow convo" also makes 0 sense, because its unrelated(Idk where you took this idea even). Its like saying: "Well you pet Scratch, game recognizes you as a dog person now".
Because first run who i really was. Second one is looking at what the game could offer. Im normally very jelaous and it also really bothered me when she flirted him that way. So ive found out the reasons and trying to explain the ways of avoiding it for others. Think it as a tip. So people wouldnt feel frustrated.
So you've actually aknowledged the problem yourself? Why are you denying it or trying to find excuses then?
That bears a question (get it ? xD ) Why are you speaking and showing interest on brothel workers if youre not planning to share ? Secondly why youre bringing Halsin? I dont need to talk to brothel workers unless i plan to share. I dont need to bring Halsin because i already have another Druid with me. Refusing Halsin will only close his romance path. But game will stil take him as potiental fling opportunity. When you bring both of them there itll make game think youre already into it because why else youve brought Halsin with you?( hes only character that programmed to be poly) If hes not there game will go on as 2v2 . but if hes there game will take it as youre leading them. If you reject there youll get disapprove because now your leading turned to turning cold at last minute.
That bears a question (get it ? xD ) Why are you speaking and showing interest on brothel workers if youre not planning to share ? Secondly why youre bringing Halsin? I dont need to talk to brothel workers unless i plan to share. I dont need to bring Halsin because i already have another Druid with me. Refusing Halsin will only close his romance path. But game will stil take him as potiental fling opportunity. When you bring both of them there itll make game think youre already into it because why else youve brought Halsin with you?( hes only character that programmed to be poly) If hes not there game will go on as 2v2 . but if hes there game will take it as youre leading them. If you reject there youll get disapprove because now your leading turned to turning cold at last minute.
Just a reminder that you can chose "nevermind, I've changed my mind" at the room with drows and you wont get hit by any disapprovals(not Shadowheart, not Astarion) if its 2v2. What if he is member of my party? Why not kill him on the spot then or beat him into leaving your camp? Its just workaround for a huge problem. What if I want just 2v2 with my romance partner with drows? Again, its none of his business UNLESS my character in romance with him aswell. Dont you really see a problem here? Sure if my character is in romance with Shadowheart and Halsin, declining him in drow convo would make me a dick and disapproval makes sense. However if my character is not in romance with Halsin and only in romance with Shadowheart - its none of business what we do. It makes him "terrible person" for just that banter and "squeeze in" attempt in drow foursome. Its the same shit as if withers would propose himself.
The issue for a lot of people is approval when Halsin is accepted(+1) or rejected(-1) and Shadowheart/Halsin dialog during drow intimacy scene, no matter if Halsin romance was rejected or accepted: Shadowheart: You know, I had a dream just like this once. Halsin: A pleasant one, I hope. Shadowheart: You were in it, so it was certainly... lively. WTF? It seams like this part of dialog is constructed for open relationship, which has sense when Tav initiate it. However, It is completely out of character in monogamous Shadowheart romance. Deep thoughts: Poly/mono relationship acceptance for Shadowheart should be based on her personal quest progress. Polygamy/open relationship doesn't fit Selune Shadowheart romance progression at all. Selune Shadowheart is all about getting away from Shar/groto teaching and if romanced building her own family with PC. While Dark Justiciar is more about having fun since Shar forbids love anyway.
Again i say if youre into it just leave him out of it till its fixed. Let him rot in camp.When i say this people says ignorint it wont change it.
Oh the things I've done with him would make Dark Urge blush. Im very jealous person I admit. Most of us who care about this already made some workarounds. Doesnt change the fact that thing should be changed and you would expect this from Larian with their attention to even smallest things.
Originally Posted by Shellybon
It is if it s not intended for you. Its for Halsin and SH enjoyers. A parallel universe.
Im fine with this but it shouldnt hinder other players and their preferences.
Indeed. I am just asking for some reactivity in my universe. Because currently Halsin and SH enjoyers are getting more. For example, If I rejected Halsin poly offer, why should he hit on SH with "if you and your love ever wish to enjoy". Has 0 sense.
Its more like look she/he refused me but im stil here stuff. Good thing if you ignore his advances SH wont say anything. Its up to us to allow him or not.
There are some lovely Halsin fans who want the same things as we do. They want the stories and characters to be treated responsibly and respectfully.
Then there are the posts asking for the option to screw Halsin in bear form, while the player is an owlbear. And those who ask for rape to be included because "rape has been common throughout history and beastiality hasn't."
Like I get that this is a game but some people take things way too far, in my opinion. Some people don't seem to grasp that video games and movies affect people in real life.
Okay, let’s not start dissing other people or having one sided arguments with folk who aren’t here. Everyone is welcome to share their own preferences and takes, without having their morals or tastes questioned. Perhaps we can stick to making the positive case for our own perspectives rather than taking digs at others?
Throughout the game it's been hinted at that relationships and anything casual is actually looked down upon by Shar because it means you're not doing her bidding. They needed to find excuses or do it secretly. The only time this narrative is flipped upside down is when you cheat on Mizora, where the writing is inconsistent with the rest of the dialogue in the game.
This is why she doesn't do jack in act 1 and act 2. She knows Shar wouldn't approve. But she herself wants it, that's why she's conflicted between choosing you and Shar, and unhappy when you do anything with another companion.
Then you get the Nightsong choice. In act 3, you have Sharran or Selunite Shadowheart.
Both want you for themselves, so neither should want to share you whatsoever; not with Halsin, not with the drows and not with Mizora. The only difference is that the Sharran version needs to find an excuse to get down with you because she doesn't want to piss off Shar (hence she calls it an exception), whereas the Selunite version will devote her everything to you (move in together, start a family) because that's what she personally wanted all along and now Shar's not there to stop her.
The only thing that strays from his own writing here is Halsin, the drows and Mizora. Three completely avoidable and short dialogues.
I just wanna bring this back as an appreciation post. I really feel like this hit the nail on the head when it comes to SH and her complete 180 regarding Halsin, drow, etc. This one post brought so much clarity to the situation I feel. So kudos to Michieltjuhh for posting it
I just want the ability to talk to her about being in an exclusive relationship together. Why is it that you can bring up the idea of polyamory but not monogamy? I hate that.
I just want the ability to talk to her about being in an exclusive relationship together. Why is it that you can bring up the idea of polyamory but not monogamy? I hate that.
People have suggested its because monogamy is the default and that includes SH. While I do agree she is default monogamous, clearly things get weird when you have Halsin around. One should have to go out of their way to make her into polyamory/casual sex, with clear communication.
So yeah being able to clearly define your relationship should be added, so it eliminates any confusion.
Zevlor would've been cool for good playthrough paladin. Same as Kagha for evil druid. Doubt we will get them anyway and Halsin obviously is not going anywhere, all we can hope for is a "compromise".
It is not about Halsin, Zavlor or any other companion. Is is more about certain companion archetype game is missing -- a friend. Pure friendship without any sexual context. An example from Dragon Age universe Varric. There is lore behind why he can't be romanceable. You can say that bg3 has Jaheira and Minsc, but they are added to the party too late but are more on their own.
I just wanna bring this back as an appreciation post. I really feel like this hit the nail on the head when it comes to SH and her complete 180 regarding Halsin, drow, etc. This one post brought so much clarity to the situation I feel. So kudos to Michieltjuhh for posting it
Originally Posted by sezz
It is not about Halsin, Zavlor or any other companion. Is is more about certain companion archetype game is missing -- a friend. Pure friendship without any sexual context. An example from Dragon Age universe Varric. There is lore behind why he can't be romanceable. You can say that bg3 has Jaheira and Minsc, but they are added to the party too late but are more on their own.
I suppose that's what Halsin would've been if they didn't change him last minute to be a joke romance. Only in a good run, of course, but I don't think an evil run deserves a friend!
People that say this type of content is not for you if you go monogamous route with SH or ,,just leave him at camp,, are missing the point, it is about writing, not about having feelings hurt because your fictional girlfriend is attracted to another man. There are a lot of dialogue options that most people would never choose in ironman playthrough, but they choose it out of curiosity to then f8 after. How many people would quick save and then choose the meanest dialogue option just to see npc reaction? And then actually liking (or disliking) character more , based on their response? Or not even liking, but actually learning something important about that character background/personality?
Having an ability to see ,,what if,, scenario is the greatest advantage that video games have when it comes to story telling over any other media type, so having an attitude that everything is fine when some characters do something completely contradicting to their previous behavior just because that dialogue option is not often choosen is kinda silly
What a shame, I thought Shadowheart's romance was so beautiful and well written, but after finding out about this you can't help but feel disappointed. They should reward the player for following a monogamous route with some additional conversation with Halsin or Shadowheart.
If they fix Halsin it will be much much better. Its really just Halsin thing. Without rewriting I think Larian could do "bandaid" fix, something like that: 1.SH/Halsin banter removed (swim banter). 2.SH doesnt disapprove when Halsin is rejected at drow event. Or remove his self-insert(which is harder I guess). 3.SH disapproves(minor) when you cheat with Mizora. This would help with immersion a bit.
It is not about Halsin, Zavlor or any other companion. Is is more about certain companion archetype game is missing -- a friend. Pure friendship without any sexual context. An example from Dragon Age universe Varric. There is lore behind why he can't be romanceable. You can say that bg3 has Jaheira and Minsc, but they are added to the party too late but are more on their own.
I could see my half wood elf Ancients paladin being bros with Halsin, if he kept his nose where it doesn't belong. But that just adds further frustration to this whole situation, because it could have been cool to get to know Halsin more and become good buds. It's just that most people aren't cool with their friends trying to bang their girlfriend.
If they fix Halsin it will be much much better. Its really just Halsin thing. Without rewriting I think Larian could do "bandaid" fix, something like that: 1.SH/Halsin banter removed (swim banter). 2.SH doesnt disapprove when Halsin is rejected at drow event. Or remove his self-insert(which is harder I guess). 3.SH disapproves(minor) when you cheat with Mizora. This would help with immersion a bit.
Disapproval system in this dialog in should be changed for sure. Gale and Astarion also suffer from approval system. Also one line in intimacy scene with drow twins and Halsin could be removed:
Shadowheart: You know, I had a dream just like this once. Halsin: A pleasant one, I hope. Shadowheart: You were in it, so it was certainly... lively.
If they fix Halsin it will be much much better. Its really just Halsin thing. Without rewriting I think Larian could do "bandaid" fix, something like that: 1.SH/Halsin banter removed (swim banter). 2.SH doesnt disapprove when Halsin is rejected at drow event. Or remove his self-insert(which is harder I guess). 3.SH disapproves(minor) when you cheat with Mizora. This would help with immersion a bit.
Disapproval system in this dialog in should be changed for sure. Gale and Astarion also suffer from approval system. Also one line in intimacy scene with drow twins and Halsin could be removed:
Shadowheart: You know, I had a dream just like this once. Halsin: A pleasant one, I hope. Shadowheart: You were in it, so it was certainly... lively.
Agree on this. Also maybe Mizora cheat dialogue where she says about moments that were encouraged(for consistency), unless its intended as sort of coping mechanism(which I doubt).
They can't get rid of the Mizora dialogue though, because then their whole excuse for SH being down with casual sex (Halsin, drow, all of it) goes out the window.
I mean it's a weak excuse as it is, because it directly contradicts what she has said throughout the rest of the game. But they needed plausible deniability for the poly stuff to appear like it works.
They can't get rid of the Mizora dialogue though, because then their whole excuse for SH being down with casual sex (Halsin, drow, all of it) goes out the window.
I mean it's a weak excuse as it is, because it directly contradicts what she has said throughout the rest of the game. But they needed plausible deniability for the poly stuff to appear like it works.
I meant 1 line where she says: "The way I was raised, the way I was trained ..." They could cut it.
But that's what I mean though. Throughout the game she says "I was taught to reject anything that didn't revolve around Shar" which would include casual sex and relationships, everything. She would have been expected to train and pray basically all day everyday.
But then with Mizora, they turned it around and made it sound like sharran teachings encouraged casual sex. It's like everything they said in the first 2 acts, suddenly is irrelevant, just to make room for her interest in casual sex.
I guess without rewriting this cannot be resolved at this point(Mizora excuse).
Well I just hope to at least get this:
Originally Posted by Netav
If they fix Halsin it will be much much better. Its really just Halsin thing. Without rewriting I think Larian could do "bandaid" fix, something like that: 1.SH/Halsin banter removed (swim banter). 2.SH doesnt disapprove when Halsin is rejected at drow event. Or remove his self-insert(which is harder I guess). 3.SH disapproves(minor) when you cheat with Mizora. This would help with immersion a bit.
Given her personality around people she thinks are attractive as early as Act 1, removing lines and interactions that again are dynamic based on the individual player, because the origins can be different versions of themselves based on what you choose to do, this kind of "remove content because I think only a specific version of the character should exist" is just wildly against the design paradigm the character development is based on. It is far simpler to just... not do the things you find objectionable as a player, so that the character based on your choices is the one that matches those values. That's why Halsin's interjections are a huge problem, while her reaction about Mizora is... honestly totally fine.
I think some people may be reading the Mizora reaction wrong, honestly. It's not an excuse, and it if we wanna get into it, it actually does fit with Shar's training*. She's saying she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same, but still chastising you for pulling shit behind her back because you're supposed to be in a more serious relationship than that. It's a very forgiving stance yes, but definitely not the cheap excuse for her poly dynamic (or if I'm reading the posts wrong, whatever it's being called an excuse for) some are making it out to be.
*Like yes Shar wants everyone to be obedient and devoted to her above all but the gods mostly aren't able to take direct control over their subjects/worshippers like the Illithid can. To get entire communities, even brainwashed, to reject serious attachments and still be effective there's gotta be a lifestyle to support that. From Shar's perspective it's probably along the lines of sure, have casual sex, in fact do it as much as you feel like you need to as long as at the end of the day, you know when to stop and serve.
Which is almost exactly what Shadowheart warns you will eventually happen if she leans deeper into her Shar worship.
And I'm sure there's a big ol' argument waiting to happen about Shar's lore here but we're talking about why she doesn't smite every single person that's ever worshipped her on the spot here (especially one of her past champions) at this point because Shar IS that petty. The gods of Faerun aren't omniscient but they also aren't naive. It's also totally possible that the content of the training is the responsibility of the one providing/inflicting it, in this case a character at least passingly familiar with a society scale casual dynamic using more base treachery rather than direct memory manipulation to discourage attachments.
Given her personality around people she thinks are attractive as early as Act 1, removing lines and interactions that again are dynamic based on the individual player, because the origins can be different versions of themselves based on what you choose to do, this kind of "remove content because I think only a specific version of the character should exist" is just wildly against the design paradigm the character development is based on. It is far simpler to just... not do the things you find objectionable as a player, so that the character based on your choices is the one that matches those values. That's why Halsin's interjections are a huge problem, while her reaction about Mizora is... honestly totally fine.
I think some people may be reading the Mizora reaction wrong, honestly. It's not an excuse, and it if we wanna get into it, it actually does fit with Shar's training*. She's saying she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same, but still chastising you for pulling shit behind her back because you're supposed to be in a more serious relationship than that. It's a very forgiving stance yes, but definitely not the cheap excuse for her poly dynamic (or if I'm reading the posts wrong, whatever it's being called an excuse for) some are making it out to be.
*Like yes Shar wants everyone to be obedient and devoted to her above all but the gods mostly aren't able to take direct control over their subjects/worshippers like the Illithid can. To get entire communities, even brainwashed, to reject serious attachments and still be effective there's gotta be a lifestyle to support that. From Shar's perspective it's probably along the lines of sure, have casual sex, in fact do it as much as you feel like you need to as long as at the end of the day, you know when to stop and serve.
Which is almost exactly what Shadowheart warns you will eventually happen if she leans deeper into her Shar worship.
And I'm sure there's a big ol' argument waiting to happen about Shar's lore here but we're talking about why she doesn't smite every single person that's ever worshipped her on the spot here (especially one of her past champions) at this point because Shar IS that petty. The gods of Faerun aren't omniscient but they also aren't naive. It's also totally possible that the content of the training is the responsibility of the one providing/inflicting it, in this case a character at least passingly familiar with a society scale casual dynamic using more base treachery rather than direct memory manipulation to discourage attachments.
Personally I find her reaction about Mizora fine. I stated 1 Mizora line to be removed because somewhere in earlier acts she says the opposite(Personally I dont remember that dialogue or line) and thus creates inconsistency. Pretty much everyone agrees here that the main problem and "catalyst" is Halsin.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
Yeah I've already submitted a bug report. That was a couple patches ago mind you, so I should probably submit another one.
I can't believe all these patches they've done and it's never gotten fixed. I really really hope it'll be in one in the near future.
Is it better to send it as bug report or feedback?>
Given her personality around people she thinks are attractive as early as Act 1, removing lines and interactions that again are dynamic based on the individual player, because the origins can be different versions of themselves based on what you choose to do, this kind of "remove content because I think only a specific version of the character should exist" is just wildly against the design paradigm the character development is based on. It is far simpler to just... not do the things you find objectionable as a player, so that the character based on your choices is the one that matches those values. That's why Halsin's interjections are a huge problem, while her reaction about Mizora is... honestly totally fine.
I think some people may be reading the Mizora reaction wrong, honestly. It's not an excuse, and it if we wanna get into it, it actually does fit with Shar's training*. She's saying she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same, but still chastising you for pulling shit behind her back because you're supposed to be in a more serious relationship than that. It's a very forgiving stance yes, but definitely not the cheap excuse for her poly dynamic (or if I'm reading the posts wrong, whatever it's being called an excuse for) some are making it out to be.
*Like yes Shar wants everyone to be obedient and devoted to her above all but the gods mostly aren't able to take direct control over their subjects/worshippers like the Illithid can. To get entire communities, even brainwashed, to reject serious attachments and still be effective there's gotta be a lifestyle to support that. From Shar's perspective it's probably along the lines of sure, have casual sex, in fact do it as much as you feel like you need to as long as at the end of the day, you know when to stop and serve.
Which is almost exactly what Shadowheart warns you will eventually happen if she leans deeper into her Shar worship.
And I'm sure there's a big ol' argument waiting to happen about Shar's lore here but we're talking about why she doesn't smite every single person that's ever worshipped her on the spot here (especially one of her past champions) at this point because Shar IS that petty. The gods of Faerun aren't omniscient but they also aren't naive. It's also totally possible that the content of the training is the responsibility of the one providing/inflicting it, in this case a character at least passingly familiar with a society scale casual dynamic using more base treachery rather than direct memory manipulation to discourage attachments.
Personally I find her reaction about Mizora fine. I stated 1 Mizora line to be removed because somewhere in earlier acts she says the opposite(Personally I dont remember that dialogue or line) and thus creates inconsistency. Pretty much everyone agrees here that the main problem and "catalyst" is Halsin.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
Yeah I've already submitted a bug report. That was a couple patches ago mind you, so I should probably submit another one.
I can't believe all these patches they've done and it's never gotten fixed. I really really hope it'll be in one in the near future.
Is it better to send it as bug report or feedback?>
My guess feedback is more suitable. But sending it as a bug won't hurt either.
Given her personality around people she thinks are attractive as early as Act 1, removing lines and interactions that again are dynamic based on the individual player, because the origins can be different versions of themselves based on what you choose to do, this kind of "remove content because I think only a specific version of the character should exist" is just wildly against the design paradigm the character development is based on. It is far simpler to just... not do the things you find objectionable as a player, so that the character based on your choices is the one that matches those values. That's why Halsin's interjections are a huge problem, while her reaction about Mizora is... honestly totally fine.
I think some people may be reading the Mizora reaction wrong, honestly. It's not an excuse, and it if we wanna get into it, it actually does fit with Shar's training*. She's saying she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same, but still chastising you for pulling shit behind her back because you're supposed to be in a more serious relationship than that. It's a very forgiving stance yes, but definitely not the cheap excuse for her poly dynamic (or if I'm reading the posts wrong, whatever it's being called an excuse for) some are making it out to be.
*Like yes Shar wants everyone to be obedient and devoted to her above all but the gods mostly aren't able to take direct control over their subjects/worshippers like the Illithid can. To get entire communities, even brainwashed, to reject serious attachments and still be effective there's gotta be a lifestyle to support that. From Shar's perspective it's probably along the lines of sure, have casual sex, in fact do it as much as you feel like you need to as long as at the end of the day, you know when to stop and serve.
Which is almost exactly what Shadowheart warns you will eventually happen if she leans deeper into her Shar worship.
And I'm sure there's a big ol' argument waiting to happen about Shar's lore here but we're talking about why she doesn't smite every single person that's ever worshipped her on the spot here (especially one of her past champions) at this point because Shar IS that petty. The gods of Faerun aren't omniscient but they also aren't naive. It's also totally possible that the content of the training is the responsibility of the one providing/inflicting it, in this case a character at least passingly familiar with a society scale casual dynamic using more base treachery rather than direct memory manipulation to discourage attachments.
You make some good points, however there's still a lot of confusion here. When SH says "I was taught to reject anything that doesn't revolve around Shar" I took that literally, with both casual sex and relationships. Why would Shar even allow casual sex when it could likely lead to more serious attachments, potentially causing them to stray from her or lose sight of their mission? I could imagine her followers sneaking around sometimes in secret though, but being fearful of being caught. Not because Shar (using Viconia) would kill them, but with mental torture, manipulation tactics, mind erasing or even just simply the humiliation of losing focus on Shar.
When you say "she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same" are you suggesting she was literally trained to have casual sex? Why would she be trained to do that, like for what purpose? To seduce selunites or something?
And I've never done the Shar SH path. But from what Ive read about it and seen on YT, I thought it was implied that Shar gave SH a bit of a pass as reward for her devotion. So that's why the player can still sort of be with her minimally at end. Had she not been given that pass, she wouldn't be allowed even a casual relationship with the player.
[Edited] i just rewatched the video and the sharran ending has SH breakup with the player completely. So Shar won't even allow a casual sexual relationship. This just reinforces everything I've been saying.
I could totally be wrong here, but this is how I interpreted the sharran stuff.
As for different versions of the character, that works for anything from the present (start of the game) onwards. Her back story should logically stay the same. We only learn of this casual sex training thing if we specifically cheat on her with Mizora, which is optional and not tied to SH's main story. So if they really wanted this to be part of her canon back story, why not add it in somewhere to her main story? Otherwise it gives the impression that it's specifically added in as a way to wave off cheating and encourage casual sex. But nowhere in her main story is this stuff even remotely suggested...
Given her personality around people she thinks are attractive as early as Act 1, removing lines and interactions that again are dynamic based on the individual player, because the origins can be different versions of themselves based on what you choose to do, this kind of "remove content because I think only a specific version of the character should exist" is just wildly against the design paradigm the character development is based on. It is far simpler to just... not do the things you find objectionable as a player, so that the character based on your choices is the one that matches those values. That's why Halsin's interjections are a huge problem, while her reaction about Mizora is... honestly totally fine.
I think some people may be reading the Mizora reaction wrong, honestly. It's not an excuse, and it if we wanna get into it, it actually does fit with Shar's training*. She's saying she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same, but still chastising you for pulling shit behind her back because you're supposed to be in a more serious relationship than that. It's a very forgiving stance yes, but definitely not the cheap excuse for her poly dynamic (or if I'm reading the posts wrong, whatever it's being called an excuse for) some are making it out to be.
*Like yes Shar wants everyone to be obedient and devoted to her above all but the gods mostly aren't able to take direct control over their subjects/worshippers like the Illithid can. To get entire communities, even brainwashed, to reject serious attachments and still be effective there's gotta be a lifestyle to support that. From Shar's perspective it's probably along the lines of sure, have casual sex, in fact do it as much as you feel like you need to as long as at the end of the day, you know when to stop and serve.
Which is almost exactly what Shadowheart warns you will eventually happen if she leans deeper into her Shar worship.
And I'm sure there's a big ol' argument waiting to happen about Shar's lore here but we're talking about why she doesn't smite every single person that's ever worshipped her on the spot here (especially one of her past champions) at this point because Shar IS that petty. The gods of Faerun aren't omniscient but they also aren't naive. It's also totally possible that the content of the training is the responsibility of the one providing/inflicting it, in this case a character at least passingly familiar with a society scale casual dynamic using more base treachery rather than direct memory manipulation to discourage attachments.
I think post Mizora scene lacks reactivity in general. Only Wyll disapproves. Romanced Karlach and Gale are broken but approval doesn't change. Romanced SH and Astarion could have slight disapproval as well.
You make some good points, however there's still a lot of confusion here. When SH says "I was taught to reject anything that doesn't revolve around Shar" I took that literally, with both casual sex and relationships. Why would Shar even allow casual sex when it could likely lead to more serious attachments, potentially causing them to stray from her or lose sight of their mission? I could imagine her followers sneaking around sometimes in secret though, but being fearful of being caught. Not because Shar (using Viconia) would kill them, but with mental torture, manipulation tactics, mind erasing or even just simply the humiliation of losing focus on Shar.
When you say "she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same" are you suggesting she was literally trained to have casual sex? Why would she be trained to do that, like for what purpose? To seduce selunites or something?
And I've never done the Shar SH path. But from what Ive read about it and seen on YT, I thought it was implied that Shar gave SH a bit of a pass as reward for her devotion. So that's why the player can still sort of be with her minimally at end. Had she not been given that pass, she wouldn't be allowed even a casual relationship with the player.
I could totally be wrong here, but this is how I interpreted the sharran stuff.
As for different versions of the character, that works for anything from the present (start of the game) onwards. Her back story should logically stay the same. We only learn of this casual sex training thing if we specifically cheat on her with Mizora, which is optional and not tied to SH's main story. So if they really wanted this to be part of her canon back story, why not add it in somewhere to her main story? Otherwise it gives the impression that it's specifically added in as a way to wave off cheating and encourage casual sex. But nowhere in her main story is this stuff even remotely suggested...
I cant imagine her screaming or something at MC for that, personally im fine with her reaction. She seems pissed off but accepts. That being said, some disapproval certanly wouldn't hurt in that dialogue(Sometimes disappointment speaks much louder than hysteria or other words).
Yeah I've already submitted a bug report. That was a couple patches ago mind you, so I should probably submit another one.
I can't believe all these patches they've done and it's never gotten fixed. I really really hope it'll be in one in the near future.
Removing several lines of dialog is not a big change. But feedback should be processed by QA, than writes and devs should analyze it and agree with it. In positive case it will take months.
Given her personality around people she thinks are attractive as early as Act 1, removing lines and interactions that again are dynamic based on the individual player, because the origins can be different versions of themselves based on what you choose to do, this kind of "remove content because I think only a specific version of the character should exist" is just wildly against the design paradigm the character development is based on. It is far simpler to just... not do the things you find objectionable as a player, so that the character based on your choices is the one that matches those values. That's why Halsin's interjections are a huge problem, while her reaction about Mizora is... honestly totally fine.
Which personality around people she considers attractive. The moments where she does some flirting with Karlach, or the moments where she's embarrassed about being attracted to PC, giving you a more wholesome dialogue option that gives approval compared to the straightforward dialogue option that just says "lol lets fuck" which.. does not. She also never does anything. Astarion and Lae'zel will fuck around if you don't romance them (implied to happen more than once, even), Wyll will have a cute chat with Lae'zel to her disappointment, Gale and Shadowheart do nothing and Karlach can't.
Originally Posted by Auric
I think some people may be reading the Mizora reaction wrong, honestly. It's not an excuse, and it if we wanna get into it, it actually does fit with Shar's training*. She's saying she understands your indulgence because she was trained to do the same, but still chastising you for pulling shit behind her back because you're supposed to be in a more serious relationship than that. It's a very forgiving stance yes, but definitely not the cheap excuse for her poly dynamic (or if I'm reading the posts wrong, whatever it's being called an excuse for) some are making it out to be.
*Like yes Shar wants everyone to be obedient and devoted to her above all but the gods mostly aren't able to take direct control over their subjects/worshippers like the Illithid can. To get entire communities, even brainwashed, to reject serious attachments and still be effective there's gotta be a lifestyle to support that. From Shar's perspective it's probably along the lines of sure, have casual sex, in fact do it as much as you feel like you need to as long as at the end of the day, you know when to stop and serve.
With the exception of the Mizora dialogue, it is never stated that that is how it is. It is stated multiple times that Shar doesn't want you to be distracted and that they therefore needed to find excuses or do it secretly just to have intimate moments with others, including throughout her entire Sharran act 3 story arc, which I admit isn't much because act 3 is shite, but it's more than a single optional dialogue that happens while she's out of character. There is also absolutely nothing in the House of Grief itself that hints at this being the case either, while there are memories she regains about torturing and infiltration lessons. Meanwhile her relationship with Nocturne is implied to have been entirely platonic. You think if it were encouraged, she wouldn't have a more vivid history with the one person she liked there? It's contradictory no matter how you put it, but at least if the game gave more hints at both then you could argue that it just depends on what she remembers. It doesn't.
I call the entire interaction out of character because so much as kissing Wyll makes her disappointed, and she forces you to choose on the spot. Or even just laying next to Karlach at night, where nothing actually happens. But the only thing she's upset about (if you can even call it that) regarding Mizora is that you didn't ask first. She doesn't even get angry if you tell her you'll do what you want. Absolutely none of the dialogue choices piss her off in the slightest. Why, then, can't you ask her about having an open/poly relationship with Karlach? Or any other origin companion, if she's suddenly fine with an open relationship now while she very clearly wasn't before? Again, if there were more hints than just this one interaction (and the Halsin shitshow), then it'd be more believable. But everything else hints at it not being the case, dating all the way back to act 1.
And I do not AT ALL buy the fact she didn't expect you to stay faithful. She spited her goddess, her only support at the time, just to devote herself fully to someone she apparently didn't even expect to be faithful?
Well, you just cheated on her, she chose to forgive and stick with your character(because she is fucking devoted to you at this point and has to deal with it). Doesnt really matter if thats "how she was raised" statment is true or she chose to use it as coping mechanism. You can chose meanest options in other dialogues but she usually just goes "I will manage, we dont break up".
Well, you just cheated on her, she chose to forgive and stick with your character(because she is fucking devoted to you at this point and has to deal with it). Doesnt really matter if thats "how she was raised" statment is true or she chose to use it as coping mechanism. You can chose meanest options in other dialogues but she usually just goes "I will manage, we dont break up".
No, Karlach chooses to forgive depending on dialogue options, Shadowheart didn't 'choose to forgive', she's fine with it and just wants you to ask next time. And I just edited in a bit late to the previous post because I forgot to mention it, but it makes no sense that she doesn't expect you to remain faithful considering she just spited her only other support in life, which was a literal goddess, just to devote herself fully to you. She has enough faith in you to think you'll lead her to a better life than a goddess could, but not enough faith in you to think you'll not cheat on her?
Well, you just cheated on her, she chose to forgive and stick with your character(because she is fucking devoted to you at this point and has to deal with it). Doesnt really matter if thats "how she was raised" statment is true or she chose to use it as coping mechanism. You can chose meanest options in other dialogues but she usually just goes "I will manage, we dont break up".
If that's true, that just makes me really sad for her. Like how far could this go? If we start beating her is she is going to just let us, accept that just how it is and forgive us? We can do whatever we want, without consequence? Has she no backbone at all? This is very disturbing when you really think about it.
Well, you just cheated on her, she chose to forgive and stick with your character(because she is fucking devoted to you at this point and has to deal with it). Doesnt really matter if thats "how she was raised" statment is true or she chose to use it as coping mechanism. You can chose meanest options in other dialogues but she usually just goes "I will manage, we dont break up".
No, Karlach chooses to forgive depending on dialogue options, Shadowheart didn't 'choose to forgive', she's fine with it and just wants you to ask next time. And I just edited in a bit late to the previous post because I forgot to mention it, but it makes no sense that she doesn't expect you to remain faithful considering she just spited her only other support in life, which was a literal goddess, just to devote herself fully to you. She has enough faith in you to think you'll lead her to a better life than a goddess could, but not enough faith in you to think you'll not cheat on her?
She is insecure whole act 3 though. Still the way she places emphasis on "swan" line makes me believe that she is not fine. And after this she just accepts that she has to deal with it and only asks you to ask her first if you plan to do anything like that in the future. Also her acceptance is played perfectly in the last line when she responds to "And you would've said yes?" - "You gotta eat. What do I get from denying your appetites?"(She doesnt say yes. She is also sad when she says that btw).
Well, you just cheated on her, she chose to forgive and stick with your character(because she is fucking devoted to you at this point and has to deal with it). Doesnt really matter if thats "how she was raised" statment is true or she chose to use it as coping mechanism. You can chose meanest options in other dialogues but she usually just goes "I will manage, we dont break up".
If that's true, that just makes me really sad for her. Like how far could this go? If we start beating her is she is going to just let us, accept that just how it is and forgive us? We can do whatever we want, without consequence? Has she no backbone at all? This is very disturbing when you really think about it.
Well, hitting her 3 times in a row eill get you -10 approval in game. As for other things, just remember "Shadowheart has faith in you"(from dark urge playthrough).
Well, you just cheated on her, she chose to forgive and stick with your character(because she is fucking devoted to you at this point and has to deal with it). Doesnt really matter if thats "how she was raised" statment is true or she chose to use it as coping mechanism. You can chose meanest options in other dialogues but she usually just goes "I will manage, we dont break up".
If that's true, that just makes me really sad for her. Like how far could this go? If we start beating her is she is going to just let us, accept that just how it is and forgive us? We can do whatever we want, without consequence? Has she no backbone at all? This is very disturbing when you really think about it.
Well, hitting her 3 times in a row eill get you -10 approval in game. As for other things, just remember "Shadowheart has faith in you"(from dark urge playthrough).
That's true. Hit her enough, it will lower approval enough and she'll leave. At least she can stand up for herself then.
She is insecure whole act 3 though. Still the way she places emphasis on "swan" line makes me believe that she is not fine. And after this she just accepts that she has to deal with it and only asks you to ask her first if you plan to do anything like that in the future. Also her acceptance is played perfectly in the last line when she responds to "And you would've said yes?" - "You gotta eat. What do I get from denying your appetites?"(She doesnt say yes. She is also sad when she says that btw).
She is insecure, but not to that extent. And the way it's written doesn't sound like how someone who accepts it only because she's afraid to lose you would reply, in my opinion. The "You gotta eat" line is literally a synonym for yes, even if reluctant.
And I do not agree that Jennifer's line delivery there implies sadness, or disappointment. Only the line she throws at Mizora has some semblance of anger to it. The rest sounds playfully sarcastic. She sounds disappointed if you walk away from her during the act 1 romance scene, or don't kiss her (failing insight check ftw), or break up with her by just leaving when she asks you to choose between her and someone else in act 2. And a plethora of other scenarios. She sounds sad during her final story cutscene, and during the start of her epilogue chat (no parents version). Compare those situations to the Mizora one and you'll know what I mean. Then again, I'm no expert voice actor, this is just my interpretation.
She is insecure whole act 3 though. Still the way she places emphasis on "swan" line makes me believe that she is not fine. And after this she just accepts that she has to deal with it and only asks you to ask her first if you plan to do anything like that in the future. Also her acceptance is played perfectly in the last line when she responds to "And you would've said yes?" - "You gotta eat. What do I get from denying your appetites?"(She doesnt say yes. She is also sad when she says that btw).
She is insecure, but not to that extent. And the way it's written doesn't sound like how someone who accepts it only because she's afraid to lose you would reply, in my opinion. The "You gotta eat" line is literally a synonym for yes.
And I do not agree that Jennifer's line delivery there implies sadness, or disappointment. Only the line she throws at Mizora. The rest sounds playfully sarcastic. She sounds disappointed if you walk away from her during the act 1 romance scene, or don't kiss her (failing insight check ftw), or break up with her by just leaving when she asks you to choose between her and someone else in act 2. And a plethora of other scenarios. She sounds sad during her final story cutscene, and during the start of her epilogue chat (no parents version). Compare those situations to the Mizora one and you'll know what I mean. Then again, I'm no expert voice actor, this is just my interpretation.
What would she answer in your opinion then? I just rewatched whole dialogue after Mizora cheat and she is definetely sad during last lines(not like in the ending obviously or other things). I consider her insecure and/or "clingy" to your character because she asks few times if you want to be with her, says that she thinks that she doesnt deserve your Tav, there is no way to break up with her after Mizora even with meanest options and there is no way to break up with her if you tell her you want to bang Halsin(you can literally say there is no room for you now, she says that she will manage), in her endings the "worst" you can get is "I wont force you, but I will keep myself easy to find in case you change your mind". Ofc it might be just huge cope, but thats just how I see it. I will say it again: Even small disapproval would be nice on Mizora cheat (Instead of huge rewriting).
[quote=Michieltjuhh] What would she answer in your opinion then? I just rewatched whole dialogue after Mizora cheat and she is definetely sad during last lines(not like in the ending obviously or other things). I consider her insecure and/or "clingy" to your character because she asks few times if you want to be with her, says that she thinks that she doesnt deserve your Tav, there is no way to break up with her after Mizora even with meanest options and there is no way to break up with her if you tell her you want to bang Halsin(you can literally say there is no room for you now, she says that she will manage), in her endings the "worst" you can get is "I wont force you, but I will keep myself easy to find in case you change your mind". Ofc it might be just huge cope, but thats just how I see it. I will say it again: Even small disapproval would be nice on Mizora cheat (Instead of huge rewriting).
She's indeed not entirely sure if you want her, though her dialogue during the finale implies character development that is ruined again in the epilogue. So like you said, she is insecure. But lets say it this way. She gave up her life as she knew it for someone that she believes in. If she were insecure to that extent, she should be inconsolable because her world just crumbled before her, because she just found out her sacrifice was for some cheating scum. Since she's not even sure if you want to be with her and she needs constant confirmation of this, wouldn't finding out that you cheat on her make her burst out in tears?
I don't mind her asking for confirmation halfway through act 3. The only time it was mentioned prior to that was obviously incredibly emotionally charged so having her ask for confirmation at a more calm moment makes sense for someone insecure. However, personally I don't like the epilogue, especially after the finale. I think there was good character development there, she showed confidence. By the time you can cheat on Mizora, some of that confidence should be back already (it's after your second confirmation chat). So I expected a reply more similar to what she does when you break up with her. You don't even get to say why, she just says she thought you had something lasting and says she won't make the same mistake again. So if anything, I actually think it'd make most sense if she just breaks up with you on the spot and you don't even get to reply, at least not then. That'd fit how she reacts when you say you want to break up with her.
I haven't been in this thread in a while and I have to say, my dudes I see a lot of cope going on, on both sides. You can rationalize all you want as to what makes or doesn't make sense but the answer is simple. To be blunt the issue is poor writing (whether you want to accept that or you enjoy parts of it) and the writers decision to season his stories with his own sexual interests.
And before someone decides to jump down my throat about attacking the writer or dismissing other peoples feelings, I don't care about your sexual interests and I don't not think less of you because of them. My point isn't to insult but to point out a certain thing. (observation)
He has written three companions (DOS2 and BG3) and in all three companions you can find aspects of cucking. (An apology to the Red Queen, I know you dislike the word but in this case it applies. Unless you can give me another name for it.) I would say he felt rather bold when he was writing Halsin since he also decided to add bestiality, a disgusting fetish that I might add Larian decided to market their game with. (No its not one 'funny scene', Halsin has in game/cut dialogue implying he has sexual relations with animals and the whole drow scene leans heavily into it also. As for those that would defend it by saying he is a druid, would you hold the same position if he were to turn into a child? And the consent thing, lol? Scooby-doo can also consent, at the end of the day you are still having sex with an animal.)
So with that said, no its not a bug, not its not an oversight. Its intended and you are not the audience for his characters. (Maybe these things will change if the backlash is loud enough but the same could've been said for Red Prince and he stayed the same)
As for the whole Mizora scene, yes the poor writing shines the most here since she contradicts everything she has said up to that point. And if you decide to sleep with someone else after the said scene she will go back to her base way of thinking and breaking up with the MC. (Unless its Halsin ofc)
And it was/is used to justify polyamory and the sudden change in character seeing how even the militant poly people of reddit are using that scene as a justification for her being poly. (A lot of people don't care about writing or it making sense but are mainly focusing on their own wish fulfillment with addition of projecting their own lives onto it, that's why you will find poly posters being offended as if you were attacking them.)
If multiple versions of a character are supposed to exist and just closing your eyes/ignoring it is enough then I ask for a scene where Wyll is okay with the MC slaughtering refugees in ACT3 and saying he never cared and enjoys mindless killing. Consistency be damned.
I will say this as a closing part of my post. I don't want to play a side NPC in a RPG whether that comes to the main story or romances. (So I don't want to go through a full campaign where my MC is the main hero only to be swept under the rug in the last 5min because a new NPC showed up and killed the bad guy without my input and I don't want to go through a whole romance where the character decided to cheat and the very end.)
ps. Queen you don't have to worry I probably won't be coming back to this thread any time soon.
That feels a bit extreme in my opinion. I would think you get hit with like -25 approval and her saying (sternly)something like "I'm very disappointed in you. It hurts me that you would be so disrespectful towards me and our relationship like this. It will take time to earn back that trust, but I'm willing to try."
I will say this as a closing part of my post. I don't want to play a side NPC in a RPG whether that comes to the main story or romances. (So I don't want to go through a full campaign where my MC is the main hero only to be swept under the rug in the last 5min because a new NPC showed up and killed the bad guy without my input and I don't want to go through a whole romance where the character decided to cheat and the very end.)
Thankfully that doesn't happen with Shadowheart so long as you don't actively cheat on her and ignore Halsin's existence as a companion, or just murder him (oh no, you'll miss out on a 5 second cutscene at the end of act 2!). She remains the lovable person you help mold her to become. Lets not give him ideas now, though, I'd rather have no bonus epilogue than have something as retarded as that.
As for the rest of your post, I just enjoy discussing things, and keeping the topic alive is hopefully worth it so long as it doesn't turn into repetitiveness or bump posts. Lets have them prove they care about feedback beyond just PR talk! I still don't know what exactly happens with the Red Prince except that it was supposedly at least hinted at, which means it wasn't as out of the blue as this situation. But I do know people weren't very happy about it.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
That feels a bit extreme in my opinion. I would think you get hit with like -25 approval and her saying (sternly)something like "I'm very disappointed in you. It hurts me that you would be so disrespectful towards me and our relationship like this. It will take time to earn back that trust, but I'm willing to try."
That'll do as well. Though I wouldn't mind that as a followup chat a long rest later. I also think you should be able to talk after breaking up with her on a later occasion, so you can at least give a reason. I might be wrong, but don't other companions let you give a reason?
Thankfully that doesn't happen with Shadowheart so long as you don't actively cheat on her and ignore Halsin's existence as a companion, or just murder him (oh no, you'll miss out on a 5 second cutscene at the end of act 2!). She remains the lovable person you help mold her to become. Lets not give him ideas now, though, I'd rather have no bonus epilogue than have something as retarded as that.
As for the rest of your post, I just enjoy discussing things, and keeping the topic alive is hopefully worth it so long as it doesn't turn into repetitiveness or bump posts. I still don't know what exactly happens with the Red Prince except that it was supposedly at least hinted at, which means it wasn't as out of the blue as this situation. But I do know people weren't very happy about it.
Physical cheating, no. Emotional, yes. That banter is canon no matter how you try to spin it. (What I'm trying to say is you shouldn't have to ignore parts of the game or try to go out of your way to kill companions so certain things where the player has no control over won't happen.)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shut down the discussion. I've rather enjoyed reading your posts. Wish you all the best.
Now for real, in this last month talking about this whole topic I felt like a broken record so I'm going to disengage. Again have fun and all the luck in changing the writers/devs mind on this.
Physical cheating, no. Emotional, yes. That banter is canon no matter how you try to spin it. (What I'm trying to say is you shouldn't have to ignore parts of the game or try to go out of your way to kill companions so certain things where the player has no control over won't happen.)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shut down the discussion. I've rather enjoyed reading your posts. Wish you all the best.
Now for real, in this last month talking about this whole topic I felt like a broken record so I'm going to disengage. Again have fun and all the luck in changing the writers/devs mind on this.
Yeah, that much is true regarding the emotional cheating. However, thankfully as it stands even that is avoidable by killing Halsin before he so much as exists as a person. And killing a rabid bear doesn't make you a bad person, he himself calls you a lunatic for siding with him, after all. But I do wish it were rewritten entirely instead so you can have him around without the implications. And this has the added benefit that the Halsin fans will be happy, too, because they're not exactly happy with him either.
Enjoy your time off from the topic. Thanks for starting it and lets hope our combined efforts cause change eventually!
I don't know I've never fully romanced anyone besides SH. Like I start a new game with the intention of branching out just to see, but then SH looks at me once and I'm right back in her clutches lmfao
But yeah, I agree a follow up chat would work too. I think she would give you another chance but definitely not let you get off lightly. The way they have her now is basically just waving it away, as if it doesn't matter, no consequences and it feels very unrealistic.
Thankfully that doesn't happen with Shadowheart so long as you don't actively cheat on her and ignore Halsin's existence as a companion, or just murder him (oh no, you'll miss out on a 5 second cutscene at the end of act 2!). She remains the lovable person you help mold her to become. Lets not give him ideas now, though, I'd rather have no bonus epilogue than have something as retarded as that.
As for the rest of your post, I just enjoy discussing things, and keeping the topic alive is hopefully worth it so long as it doesn't turn into repetitiveness or bump posts. I still don't know what exactly happens with the Red Prince except that it was supposedly at least hinted at, which means it wasn't as out of the blue as this situation. But I do know people weren't very happy about it.
Physical cheating, no. Emotional, yes. That banter is canon no matter how you try to spin it. (What I'm trying to say is you shouldn't have to ignore parts of the game or try to go out of your way to kill companions so certain things where the player has no control over won't happen.)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shut down the discussion. I've rather enjoyed reading your posts. Wish you all the best.
Now for real, in this last month talking about this whole topic I felt like a broken record so I'm going to disengage. Again have fun and all the luck in changing the writers/devs mind on this.
You're right, we shouldn't have to. Hopefully they'll fix it and we won't have to deal with it anymore. It could be worse though, so at least there's that lol
Anyway, thanks for starting this, it's much appreciated. Maybe we'll see you again in here in the future. Until then, good luck and take care
Which personality around people she considers attractive. The moments where she does some flirting with Karlach, or the moments where she's embarrassed about being attracted to PC, giving you a more wholesome dialogue option that gives approval compared to the straightforward dialogue option that just says "lol lets fuck" which.. does not. She also never does anything. Astarion and Lae'zel will fuck around if you don't romance them (implied to happen more than once, even), Wyll will have a cute chat with Lae'zel to her disappointment, Gale and Shadowheart do nothing and Karlach can't.
With the exception of the Mizora dialogue, it is never stated that that is how it is. It is stated multiple times that Shar doesn't want you to be distracted and that they therefore needed to find excuses or do it secretly just to have intimate moments with others, including throughout her entire Sharran act 3 story arc, which I admit isn't much because act 3 is shite, but it's more than a single optional dialogue that happens while she's out of character. There is also absolutely nothing in the House of Grief itself that hints at this being the case either, while there are memories she regains about torturing and infiltration lessons. Meanwhile her relationship with Nocturne is implied to have been entirely platonic. You think if it were encouraged, she wouldn't have a more vivid history with the one person she liked there? It's contradictory no matter how you put it, but at least if the game gave more hints at both then you could argue that it just depends on what she remembers. It doesn't.
I call the entire interaction out of character because so much as kissing Wyll makes her disappointed, and she forces you to choose on the spot. Or even just laying next to Karlach at night, where nothing actually happens. But the only thing she's upset about (if you can even call it that) regarding Mizora is that you didn't ask first. She doesn't even get angry if you tell her you'll do what you want. Absolutely none of the dialogue choices piss her off in the slightest. Why, then, can't you ask her about having an open/poly relationship with Karlach? Or any other origin companion, if she's suddenly fine with an open relationship now while she very clearly wasn't before? Again, if there were more hints than just this one interaction (and the Halsin shitshow), then it'd be more believable. But everything else hints at it not being the case, dating all the way back to act 1.
And I do not AT ALL buy the fact she didn't expect you to stay faithful. She spited her goddess, her only support at the time, just to devote herself fully to someone she apparently didn't even expect to be faithful?
All of the above? Shadowheart's lack of initiative to actively pursue relationships or attachments is honestly probably one more bullet point for why she's so important to the Shar cult she's in. She expresses herself quite openly, but it seems consistent that someone else has to take the first step. As you said, Karlach can't. For all his Act 3 design problems Halsin likely would have if he were an Origin, and his code certainly has him acting the role of pest interjecting himself when he thinks he has a shot to shoot.
In terms of what's stated, there's that pair of rings that have a whole story about a Justiciar who built someone up into loving her completely, enough to accept a ring from her. It was to take advantage of him so he would unwittingly tank damage to help her survive, but the game establishes the precedent of this particular brand of distraction decently enough imo. We don't get basically any exposition about the specifics but between that, Shadowheart's comment, and who the current figurehead of the cult in the game happens to be, it all makes sense to me. In my estimation Shadowheart's personal lack of initiative to get some casual fun in the woods (and the way she mentions that if you pitch it to her implies a little past personal experience) is just one more reason she was groomed into such a central role. The player character has to put in a fair amount more effort into assuring her of their sincere interest than pretty much anyone else because she does kind of resist in hopes of being elevated to a position that WILL demand more devotion to Shar, but that's not being demanded of her yet at game start and the more she likes you the less she's willing to pass up the chance while she's able to take it. I think it pretty clear she could easily have ended up liking Karlach enough for that too, and maybe would have even given Gale a chance for at least a dalliance if he ever made a move.
See this I disagree on mostly because as you mention, the Origins were arbitrarily left out of the poly dynamic. Rather than it being out of character for Shadowheart or anyone else for that matter, I see it as a design shortcoming that you can't include anyone else even for example when Karlach fully volunteers herself to be included. Larian decided not to make the effort to fully follow through on that dynamic for reasons only they know, but even if we did know them I bet they'd be equally as baffling as making the endings people expected and deciding not to use them, or rushing the game out a month early.
Certainly she expects faithfulness. And part of that is the expectation that you don't pull shit behind her back which is exactly why she still chastises you about Mizora even while being quite forgiving of it.
-edit- sorry some of this sounds like it's just repeating things you already said in the last few posts, I had to afk in the middle of writing this so I didn't see them until after.
I don't know I've never fully romanced anyone besides SH. Like I start a new game with the intention of branching out just to see, but then SH looks at me once and I'm right back in her clutches lmfao
But yeah, I agree a follow up chat would work too. I think she would give you another chance but definitely not let you get off lightly. The way they have her now is basically just waving it away, as if it doesn't matter, no consequences and it feels very unrealistic.
Ye just broke up with my homie Wyll and he accepts it with dignity, and you do at least get a chance to reconsider. Broke up with Karlach and you have to give her an explanation. So compared to them at least, Shadowheart definitely reacts more emotional.
All of the above? Shadowheart's lack of initiative to actively pursue relationships or attachments is honestly probably one more bullet point for why she's so important to the Shar cult she's in. She expresses herself quite openly, but it seems consistent that someone else has to take the first step. As you said, Karlach can't. For all his Act 3 design problems Halsin likely would have if he were an Origin, and his code certainly has him acting the role of pest interjecting himself when he thinks he has a shot to shoot.
Karlach still tries with the PC, why couldn't she with Shadowheart? She just can't sleep around, but you can kiss Karlach in act 1 as well. Shadowheart doesn't sleep with anyone, including PC. She would've if she were taught in an environment where casual sex was encouraged. And judging by her relationship with Halsin in act 2, she would've declined him. They're not exactly friends.
Originally Posted by Auric
In terms of what's stated, there's that pair of rings that have a whole story about a Justiciar who built someone up into loving her completely, enough to accept a ring from her. It was to take advantage of him so he would unwittingly tank damage to help her survive, but the game establishes the precedent of this particular brand of distraction decently enough imo. We don't get basically any exposition about the specifics but between that, Shadowheart's comment, and who the current figurehead of the cult in the game happens to be, it all makes sense to me. In my estimation Shadowheart's personal lack of initiative to get some casual fun in the woods (and the way she mentions that if you pitch it to her implies a little past personal experience) is just one more reason she was groomed into such a central role. The player character has to put in a fair amount more effort into assuring her of their sincere interest than pretty much anyone else because she does kind of resist in hopes of being elevated to a position that WILL demand more devotion to Shar, but that's not being demanded of her yet at game start and the more she likes you the less she's willing to pass up the chance while she's able to take it. I think it pretty clear she could easily have ended up liking Karlach enough for that too, and maybe would have even given Gale a chance for at least a dalliance if he ever made a move.
The rings imply seduction. Seduction, casual sex and relationship are three different things. Seduction is using sex as a purposeful tool and Shar does approve of that. Other than that I don't see where you disagree that it makes no sense that it was supposedly encouraged. She can't be both embarrassed by being attracted to someone and avoid any initiative for casual sex, but at the same time claim it was encouraged and she has stories to tell about her doing exactly that. That's the very definition of contraction.
Originally Posted by Auric
See this I disagree on mostly because as you mention, the Origins were arbitrarily left out of the poly dynamic. Rather than it being out of character for Shadowheart or anyone else for that matter, I see it as a design shortcoming that you can't include anyone else even for example when Karlach fully volunteers herself to be included. Larian decided not to make the effort to fully follow through on that dynamic for reasons only they know, but even if we did know them I bet they'd be equally as baffling as making the endings people expected and deciding not to use them, or rushing the game out a month early.
Certainly she expects faithfulness. And part of that is the expectation that you don't pull shit behind her back which is exactly why she still chastises you about Mizora even while being quite forgiving of it.
-edit- sorry some of this sounds like it's just repeating things you already said in the last few posts, I had to afk in the middle of writing this so I didn't see them until after.
Astarion also accepts poly with Halsin for absolutely no reason just to fit Halsin's late addition. Just like Shadowheart, it makes literally no sense for him to be okay with it. Just like Shadowheart, he's okay with Mizora, which also doesn't make sense. It all leads to one simple explanation: Halsin can't be poly/open if he's the only companion that is, and since he was a late addition romance they retconned Shadowheart and Astarion to illogically work with it.
And like you said, for some reason they aren't allowed to be poly together. Which just gives more credibility to the notion that the only reason these inconsistencies exist are because of Halsin's late addition, which in fact does make them exactly that: inconsistencies.
Also on "Mizora" cheat... The first line SH says is : "Now that he/she tried out inferior goods, he/she will know how good he/she has it already". Isnt that jealosy though?
More design problems is what I chalk it up to. Karlach was added around as late as all of Halsin's act 3 mess. And I think this is the point we most disagree on. I don't think the inclusions themselves are inconsistencies, what I think is that it all needed way more time in the oven since the team all agreed to go in this direction with it but weren't allowed the time to let it cook properly. Halsin is a little different where the writer just treated him especially poorly on top of being the extremely ill-considered focus of all the poly; and to that end Halsin is the only real "hidden fetish" the topic title mentions, I don't read that type of thing from any interactions that don't involve him.
It was likely encouraged exactly to prepare them for more specialized training in seduction. The ring thing is about what a fully trained Justiciar did and in the time frame of the game, Justiciars aren't exactly around in force. With how selective becoming a Justiciar is supposed to be I wouldn't expect a bunch of initiates are going to get that specialized training unless it was specifically expected in the selection process which it doesn't seem to be (at least for the specific cult we interact with). And as I mentioned, it's not the only time she mentions familiarity with a quick romp. She just isn't telling us the stories and I don't think that's particularly strange. Lots of people, even those who are quite flirtatious, don't enjoy talking about their past sex lives in detail even if they mention it in passing. There is an upper limit into how much exposition a videogame character should be expected to have, and I mean that's subjective so I don't fault anyone for expecting more, but I don't think it's a fault of the writing that we aren't getting the stories because I don't think they're needed to justify anything. I think the implication alone is enough with all the other details that can be connected about the cult.
More design problems is what I chalk it up to. Karlach was added around as late as all of Halsin's act 3 mess. And I think this is the point we most disagree on. I don't think the inclusions themselves are inconsistencies, what I think is that it all needed way more time in the oven since the team all agreed to go in this direction with it but weren't allowed the time to let it cook properly. Halsin is a little different where the writer just treated him especially poorly on top of being the extremely ill-considered focus of all the poly; and to that end Halsin is the only real "hidden fetish" the topic title mentions, I don't read that type of thing from any interactions that don't involve him.
It was likely encouraged exactly to prepare them for more specialized training in seduction. The ring thing is about what a fully trained Justiciar did and in the time frame of the game, Justiciars aren't exactly around in force. With how selective becoming a Justiciar is supposed to be I wouldn't expect a bunch of initiates are going to get that specialized training unless it was specifically expected in the selection process which it doesn't seem to be (at least for the specific cult we interact with). And as I mentioned, it's not the only time she mentions familiarity with a quick romp. She just isn't telling us the stories and I don't think that's particularly strange. Lots of people, even those who are quite flirtatious, don't enjoy talking about their past sex lives in detail even if they mention it in passing. There is an upper limit into how much exposition a videogame character should be expected to have, and I mean that's subjective so I don't fault anyone for expecting more, but I don't think it's a fault of the writing that we aren't getting the stories because I don't think they're needed to justify anything. I think the implication alone is enough with all the other details that can be connected about the cult.
When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter how or why she reacts to Mizora though because it isn't canon. Anything that is optional side stuff isn't apart of SH's main story. Mizora is only there because Wyll is and isn't tied to SH in any way, except this optional interaction.
If they wanted this information about sharrans and casual sex to be canon, they would have added it somewhere in her main story, but they didn't. So therefore it is irrelevant, even if I do still think it's OOC for her. It doesn't matter anyway.
Unless you can give some examples in her main story where this is stated clearly?
More design problems is what I chalk it up to. Karlach was added around as late as all of Halsin's act 3 mess. And I think this is the point we most disagree on. I don't think the inclusions themselves are inconsistencies, what I think is that it all needed way more time in the oven since the team all agreed to go in this direction with it but weren't allowed the time to let it cook properly. Halsin is a little different where the writer just treated him especially poorly on top of being the extremely ill-considered focus of all the poly; and to that end Halsin is the only real "hidden fetish" the topic title mentions, I don't read that type of thing from any interactions that don't involve him.
That's exactly WHY the inclusion is inconsistent. The poly/open relationship rubbish was added late with no thought. That's an inconsistency. And Karlach wasn't added as late as Halsin was, because Karlach has a fully fletched story, origin version and all, with romance starting all the way in act 1. She was meant to be a companion and romanceable, so she was written as such. Halsin was not, so they took the opportunity to use all that fan love for him as a reason to make him into a meme.
If they wanted it to make sense, they'd have had to rewrite a lot. And that's way more effort than it's worth. So it's inconsistent.
Originally Posted by Auric
It was likely encouraged exactly to prepare them for more specialized training in seduction. The ring thing is about what a fully trained Justiciar did and in the time frame of the game, Justiciars aren't exactly around in force. With how selective becoming a Justiciar is supposed to be I wouldn't expect a bunch of initiates are going to get that specialized training unless it was specifically expected in the selection process which it doesn't seem to be (at least for the specific cult we interact with). And as I mentioned, it's not the only time she mentions familiarity with a quick romp. She just isn't telling us the stories and I don't think that's particularly strange. Lots of people, even those who are quite flirtatious, don't enjoy talking about their past sex lives in detail even if they mention it in passing. There is an upper limit into how much exposition a videogame character should be expected to have, and I mean that's subjective so I don't fault anyone for expecting more, but I don't think it's a fault of the writing that we aren't getting the stories because I don't think they're needed to justify anything. I think the implication alone is enough with all the other details that can be connected about the cult.
It can't both be encouraged and discouraged. Which is right? The one that has an entire story arc behind it, ending and all, and is heavily implied at all points of the game, or the one that's mentioned in an optional dialogue that only happens if you cheat on her with Mizora? No, of course it doesn't have to be blatantly said, it'd be quite weird if it were. But if there's nothing else that hints at it, while everything hints at the opposite, then the only way to accept this as logical is through suspension of belief.
When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter how or why she reacts to Mizora though because it isn't canon. Anything that is optional side stuff isn't apart of SH's main story. Mizora is only there because Wyll is and isn't tied to SH in any way, except this optional interaction.
If they wanted this information about sharrans and casual sex to be canon, they would have added it somewhere in her main story, but they didn't. So therefore it is irrelevant, even if I do still think it's OOC for her. It doesn't matter anyway.
This is a WILD take about a game where character development and possible interactions are so heavily affected by choice up to and including not recruiting any of them at all. Canon in a game like this, until established by a sequel further defining it, (or maybe it won't as some sequels carry choices forward) is whatever you choose and run in to. This is for instance why I'm not hung up about
Viconia's change in demeanor and circumstance compared to the old BG games, because whatever I chose in those games is only as canon as I experienced it, and this game has established her as having changed in the future, with quite a bit of distance to make that change after my experience.
And as I mentioned in both of my previous posts, Shadowheart absolutely can make more than one implication. The first one is played a little closer to the chest if you suggest a quick fling because it's much earlier during some of your first rests, and one is a lot more open because you've already established the relationship by that point. You can choose not to read the first one as her being familiar with casual sex, but the latter if you decide to indulge with Mizora should in hindsight further the implication of it in the first one. In my opinion this is actually pretty solid writing.
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
It can't both be encouraged and discouraged. Which is right? The one that has an entire story arc behind it, ending and all, and is heavily implied at all points of the game, or the one that's mentioned in an optional dialogue that only happens if you cheat on her with Mizora? No, of course it doesn't have to be blatantly said, it'd be quite weird if it were. But if there's nothing else that hints at it, while everything hints at the opposite, then the only way to accept this as logical is through suspension of belief.
Yeah I don't see us coming to an agreement on anything here. What's discouraged is the full romance Shadowheart continually expresses nervousness about. She at no point expresses any distaste for a casual fling other than her own personal lack of desire to initiate one with you, the player. Emphasis on the "with you." She, like a real person, is fully capable of experiencing something and just deciding it's not for her regardless of encouragement. She is equally capable of trying out something she's always wanted to give a try and changing her mind (especially once she's already committed to the actual thing she's discouraged from doing, may as well try what she can while she can). None of this is inconsistent, it's just the range of human experience and as ever circles back to that post way back on page 7 about how your choices as the player are what lead into these slight nuances of character. It shouldn't be removed, it should be made better and as part of what we disagree on, I don't think it would take much rewriting at all, rather it would take a fair amount of new additional writing. But like, mostly involving how underdeveloped all the poly stuff is, not this stuff about the cult and Mizora which are pretty much fine.
When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter how or why she reacts to Mizora though because it isn't canon. Anything that is optional side stuff isn't apart of SH's main story. Mizora is only there because Wyll is and isn't tied to SH in any way, except this optional interaction.
If they wanted this information about sharrans and casual sex to be canon, they would have added it somewhere in her main story, but they didn't. So therefore it is irrelevant, even if I do still think it's OOC for her. It doesn't matter anyway.
This is a WILD take about a game where character development and possible interactions are so heavily affected by choice up to and including not recruiting any of them at all. Canon in a game like this, until established by a sequel further defining it, (or maybe it won't as some sequels carry choices forward) is whatever you choose and run in to. This is for instance why I'm not hung up about
Viconia's change in demeanor and circumstance compared to the old BG games, because whatever I chose in those games is only as canon as I experienced it, and this game has established her as having changed in the future, with quite a bit of distance to make that change after my experience.
And as I mentioned in both of my previous posts, Shadowheart absolutely can make more than one implication. The first one is played a little closer to the chest if you suggest a quick fling because it's much earlier during some of your first rests, and one is a lot more open because you've already established the relationship by that point. You can choose not to read the first one as her being familiar with casual sex, but the latter if you decide to indulge with Mizora should in hindsight further the implication of it in the first one. In my opinion this is actually pretty solid writing.
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
It can't both be encouraged and discouraged. Which is right? The one that has an entire story arc behind it, ending and all, and is heavily implied at all points of the game, or the one that's mentioned in an optional dialogue that only happens if you cheat on her with Mizora? No, of course it doesn't have to be blatantly said, it'd be quite weird if it were. But if there's nothing else that hints at it, while everything hints at the opposite, then the only way to accept this as logical is through suspension of belief.
Yeah I don't see us coming to an agreement on anything here. What's discouraged is the full romance Shadowheart continually expresses nervousness about. She at no point expresses any distaste for a casual fling other than her own personal lack of desire to initiate one with you, the player. Emphasis on the "with you." She, like a real person, is fully capable of experiencing something and just deciding it's not for her regardless of encouragement. She is equally capable of trying out something she's always wanted to give a try and changing her mind (especially once she's already committed to the actual thing she's discouraged from doing, may as well try what she can while she can). None of this is inconsistent, it's just the range of human experience and as ever circles back to that post way back on page 7 about how your choices as the player are what lead into these slight nuances of character. It shouldn't be removed, it should be made better and as part of what we disagree on, I don't think it would take much rewriting at all, rather it would take a fair amount of new additional writing.
Yet she doesn't follow through with either of those propositions for casual sex with you. Are there examples of her with other companions? Lae'zel openly has casual sex at the grove party, it makes no sense SH doesn't do it as well if she's sooo into it.
I only consider her main story quest and the choices you specifically make in it, and it alone, to be canon, for her. You can't ignore her main story. You can kill her and end her story, but that still counts. You cheating on her with Mizora is a completely optional choice, and you are not forced to do it. Therefore, it is not canon.
Yet she doesn't follow through with either of those propositions for casual sex with you. Are there examples of her with other companions? Lae'zel openly has casual sex at the grove party, it makes no sense SH doesn't do it as well if she's sooo into it.
I only consider her main story quest and the choices you specifically make in it, and it alone, to be canon, for her. You can't ignore her main story. You can kill her and end her story, but that still counts. You cheating on her with Mizora is a completely optional choice, and you are not forced to do it. Therefore, it is not canon.
No one else makes a move on her except Wyll, who does it AFTER failing to impress Lae'Zel so Shadowheart writes him off. I was just discussing in those same posts how she pretty consistently lacks personal initiative. The only time she displays any at all is once you've already made her quite happy and more of an open book in your relationship, at which point she shows more confidence in asserting what she wants for herself. And again it runs through your choices, she only takes initiative for something you first show a shared interest with her in (which is yet another reason the act 3 Halsin stuff has to be revamped). It makes the ACTUAL inconsistency with Karlach stand out all the more because SHE'S the one who seems totally accepting of poly with Shadowheart, only to find out the timing of game events makes it impossible to achieve because Larian didn't fully develop the concept (or Karlach's own personal quest which might have also changed things in Act 3).
And I'm just not going to address anything about canon further with you, our views are entirely too incompatible for any discussion about that between us to be even remotely enjoyable or fruitful.
This is a WILD take about a game where character development and possible interactions are so heavily affected by choice up to and including not recruiting any of them at all. Canon in a game like this, until established by a sequel further defining it, (or maybe it won't as some sequels carry choices forward) is whatever you choose and run in to.
Not as wild as you make it out to be considering it has absolutely no consequences and thus isn't actually part of her character development whatsoever. It's only mentioned then, never before (read below) and never again, and her dialogue for the rest of the game doesn't change whatsoever.
Originally Posted by Auric
And as I mentioned in both of my previous posts, Shadowheart absolutely can make more than one implication. The first one is played a little closer to the chest if you suggest a quick fling because it's much earlier during some of your first rests, and one is a lot more open because you've already established the relationship by that point. You can choose not to read the first one as her being familiar with casual sex, but the latter if you decide to indulge with Mizora should in hindsight further the implication of it in the first one. In my opinion this is actually pretty solid writing.
The first one doesn't imply any of it. This is literally how it goes:
Shadowheart: Finally, some good furtune. Come morning, we know what to do. Shadowheart: The sooner we find this 'Priestess Gut', the better. I can't wait to get this thing out of my head. Tav: You know, this could be our last night together. Shadowheart: I hadn't thought of that. What do you have in mind? Tav: We could find somewhere discreet right now... away from the camp. Shadowheart: Hmmm... Brambles on bare skin aren't as fun in practice, I'm afraid. Shadowheart: Besides, I can't afford to tire you out - we still have work to do. Rest well.
All she does is shut your suggestion down. And that's with the knowledge that she even likes you. Unless you're referring to one that only happens if you have low approval, where you can say that you're fine with throwing all caution to the wind or something and she'll just jokingly say maybe one of these nights might get cold and she'll need company. But thanks to the power of this being a videogame, when she does invite you for one of those nights, we know that with 'company' all she means is sharing a bottle of wine, and there she also shuts your suggestion for more down. If it were encouraged, she's defying Shar in all three occasions, something she would surely not do at that point in the game.
So the Mizora scenario is still the only one, being completely optional, with no consequences, and out of character.
Originally Posted by Auric
Yeah I don't see us coming to an agreement on anything here. What's discouraged is the full romance Shadowheart continually expresses nervousness about. She at no point expresses any distaste for a casual fling other than her own personal lack of desire to initiate one with you, the player. Emphasis on the "with you." She, like a real person, is fully capable of experiencing something and just deciding it's not for her regardless of encouragement. She is equally capable of trying out something she's always wanted to give a try and changing her mind (especially once she's already committed to the actual thing she's discouraged from doing, may as well try what she can while she can). None of this is inconsistent, it's just the range of human experience and as ever circles back to that post way back on page 7 about how your choices as the player are what lead into these slight nuances of character. It shouldn't be removed, it should be made better and as part of what we disagree on, I don't think it would take much rewriting at all, rather it would take a fair amount of new additional writing. But like, mostly involving how underdeveloped all the poly stuff is, not this stuff about the cult and Mizora which are pretty much fine.
The only time you can have a sex scene with her as Dark Justiciar is when she finds an excuse to do so. It's not meant as a romantic scene. You then get another one in the epilogue, she calls both an exception, and she breaks up with you even in a casual sense.
Earlier in the game she also says that intimacy under Shar was looked down upon and they had to find excuses or do it in secrecy. I do not remember exactly where and when, however this does perfectly fit the fact that she 1. doesn't do it in act 1 or act 2. 2. doesn't do it in act 3 without an elaborate excuse, despite wanting it. 3. Her relationship with Nocturne was no more than platonic, despite being the only person there she got along with. 4. The only memories she has when you enter the House of Grief are related to her having lessons about torturing and infiltration.
So yes, it does require rewriting in addition to more dialogue hinting at it. And it'd require all this to go in a direction people don't seem to want in the first place; not the ones that like Halsin and not the ones that like Shadowheart.
There is more inconsistencies than than, for example she is against Halsin joining camp, also their argument in Gauntlet of Shar, i would say she doesn't even like Halsin, then she suddenly changes her mind in act 3.
Yet she doesn't follow through with either of those propositions for casual sex with you. Are there examples of her with other companions? Lae'zel openly has casual sex at the grove party, it makes no sense SH doesn't do it as well if she's sooo into it.
I only consider her main story quest and the choices you specifically make in it, and it alone, to be canon, for her. You can't ignore her main story. You can kill her and end her story, but that still counts. You cheating on her with Mizora is a completely optional choice, and you are not forced to do it. Therefore, it is not canon.
No one else makes a move on her except Wyll, who does it AFTER failing to impress Lae'Zel so Shadowheart writes him off. I was just discussing in those same posts how she pretty consistently lacks personal initiative. The only time she displays any at all is once you've already made her quite happy and more of an open book in your relationship, at which point she shows more confidence in asserting what she wants for herself. And again it runs through your choices, she only takes initiative for something you first show a shared interest with her in (which is yet another reason the act 3 Halsin stuff has to be revamped).
Wyll flirts with her sure but thats not the same as having casual sex. So what you're saying is, is that she's open to casual sex as long as she isn't the one initiating it? That's very different from lae'zel, who is more than happy initiating it herself.
So she just simply doesn't have the confidence to initiate casual sex on her own? She's not even comfortable having sex with the player until late in the game, but then suddenly has the confidence to ask Halsin to join in the next day?
No, I don't buy it. If anything it just sounds like she needs comfortabilty with someone before having sex with them. Everything you're saying just sounds very convenient to allow the player to do whatever they want with her. And there's no problem allowing that as optional choice for players. But let's not pretend like all of this is her canon story and makes any sense from what is shown to us throughout her main story/romance. She has only ever shown interest in being with the player only.
Like I said, you don't have to read the first one as familiarity, what I'm saying is that running into the second one then lends more implication of it to the first one. And that's just good writing for a game heavily predicated on choices as far as I'm concerned. There's no reason for her to be specific that first time but getting to know more later can change the contextual reading and that's great. I feel like I already covered the content in the game I think works together for this to make sense so being more specific about why you don't think there's enough isn't going to change my mind. I feel like discussion between us has kinda run its course now. Mostly wanted to add my takes in here on the off-chance any of this makes it back to the writers as feedback anyway.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
Wyll flirts with her sure but thats not the same as having casual sex. So what you're saying is, is that she's open to casual sex as long as she isn't the one initiating it? That's very different from lae'zel, who is more than happy initiating it herself.
So she just simply doesn't have the confidence to initiate casual sex on her own? She's not even comfortable having sex with the player until late in the game, but then suddenly has the confidence to ask Halsin to join in the next day?
No, I don't buy it. If anything it just sounds like she needs comfortabilty with someone before having sex with them. Everything you're saying just sounds very convenient to allow the player to do whatever they want with her. And there's no problem allowing that as optional choice for players. But let's not pretend like all of this is her canon story and makes any sense from what is shown to us throughout her main story/romance. She has only ever shown interest in being with the player only.
I know it isn't the same. I was explaining one of the most blatant reasons why she doesn't engage in it with the others. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean she lacks the confidence to, that's not the same as initiative. But it's clear that once she's happier and achieved her personal goal for your relationship, namely getting you for herself first, she's a lot more willing to take personal initiative. A good example is the Shar route scene regardless of any disagreement about what that means, she wants that for herself and initiates it which she does not do at any point earlier. When you broach the discussion with the twins you find out she also has an interest. It's all predicated on whether she's already got enough of what she wants to take initiative for more or not, and it's still limited to things you show interest in that she shares that interest in.
Like I said, you don't have to read the first one as familiarity, what I'm saying is that running into the second one then lends more implication of it to the first one. And that's just good writing for a game heavily predicated on choices as far as I'm concerned. There's no reason for her to be specific that first time but getting to know more later can change the contextual reading and that's great. I feel like I already covered the content in the game I think works together for this to make sense so being more specific about why you don't think there's enough isn't going to change my mind. I feel like discussion between us has kinda run its course now. Mostly wanted to add my takes in here on the off-chance any of this makes it back to the writers as feedback anyway.
... but it doesn't. She shuts you down on THREE occasions. That doesn't hint at her saying it's "encouraged" later in the game, that literally implies the opposite. Lae'zel even mocks you for going into a night of "endless conversation" if you choose Shadowheart over her at the party. She's a good judge of character, it seems.
Or are you one of those people who thinks when a woman says no, they actually mean yes? Because then indeed, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Putting words in my mouth certainly isn't helping. I feel like I was pretty clear this whole time the two instances I was talking about were brambles on skin and reaction to Mizora. I didn't engage directly with your specifications because you're justifying your stance and I don't see a reason to argue against why you don't feel like the game justifies itself, because I feel like it does justify itself and we've run the circle already.
Like I said, you don't have to read the first one as familiarity, what I'm saying is that running into the second one then lends more implication of it to the first one. And that's just good writing for a game heavily predicated on choices as far as I'm concerned. There's no reason for her to be specific that first time but getting to know more later can change the contextual reading and that's great. I feel like I already covered the content in the game I think works together for this to make sense so being more specific about why you don't think there's enough isn't going to change my mind. I feel like discussion between us has kinda run its course now. Mostly wanted to add my takes in here on the off-chance any of this makes it back to the writers as feedback anyway.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
Wyll flirts with her sure but thats not the same as having casual sex. So what you're saying is, is that she's open to casual sex as long as she isn't the one initiating it? That's very different from lae'zel, who is more than happy initiating it herself.
So she just simply doesn't have the confidence to initiate casual sex on her own? She's not even comfortable having sex with the player until late in the game, but then suddenly has the confidence to ask Halsin to join in the next day?
No, I don't buy it. If anything it just sounds like she needs comfortabilty with someone before having sex with them. Everything you're saying just sounds very convenient to allow the player to do whatever they want with her. And there's no problem allowing that as optional choice for players. But let's not pretend like all of this is her canon story and makes any sense from what is shown to us throughout her main story/romance. She has only ever shown interest in being with the player only.
I know it isn't the same. I was explaining one of the most blatant reasons why she doesn't engage in it with the others. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean she lacks the confidence to, that's not the same as initiative. But it's clear that once she's happier and achieved her personal goal for your relationship, namely getting you for herself first, she's a lot more willing to take personal initiative. A good example is the Shar route scene regardless of any disagreement about what that means, she wants that for herself and initiates it which she does not do at any point earlier. When you broach the discussion with the twins you find out she also has an interest. It's all predicated on whether she's already got enough of what she wants to take initiative for more or not, and it's still limited to things you show interest in that she shares that interest in.
Again, its very convenient that she happens to lack initiative until the player basically decides for her. Like with Nightsong, her choice depends on high approval and the previous choices the player makes. It's still ultimately on us, as the player, what she decides.
Just like with the drow twins. In that scene, the player has already decided they're going through with one of them. Then the other twin suggests SH join, and then SH shows interest AFTER the player has. Once again the player has decided. She's just conveniently open to anything in act 3. But this still isn't canon, as it is optional not forced, and is OOC.
There is more inconsistencies than than, for example she is against Halsin joining camp, also their argument in Gauntlet of Shar, i would say she doesn't even like Halsin, then she suddenly changes her mind in act 3.
There are a lot of inconsistencies. Some are caused by bugs ans some by poor writing. In my playthrough Laezel said something like "At last Moonrise towers" while being in Lower city. But Halsin related is just poor writing. Nothing more to add.
Putting words in my mouth certainly isn't helping. I feel like I was pretty clear this whole time the two instances I was talking about were brambles on skin and reaction to Mizora. I didn't engage directly with your specifications because you're justifying your stance and I don't see a reason to argue against why you don't feel like the game justifies itself, because I feel like it does justify itself and we've run the circle already.
Was more a question than a statement, unfortunately there are people like that out there. I just don't see how a flirtatious decline is consistent with saying that casual sex was encouraged, though. Way I see it it's just her declining your request but not wanting to brutally say "no" to someone she's attracted to. To me, that hints more at the fact that she doesn't feel comfortable with casual sex than it'd be hinting at it being encouraged, reasons later explained to be partially because of her embarrassment and partially because Shar doesn't approve. Will reply to the Wyll stuff later, got some things to do.
I've dabbled in writing and have looked at numerous writer guides to get better. One of the main tips is to show, not tell.
With SH, all they've shown during her romance is a slow burn romance throughout the game. Aside from some light flirting with other companions, she only shows serious interest in the player.
We simply haven't been shown anything different, outside of optional side stuff. People can engage in this side content or even headcanon all they want but the slow burn romance is the only thing that is truly canon if you romance SH. And unless the writing is changed, that's just how it is.
You guys seems to forget that the main issue is how poorly Halsin inclusion done . Her acceptance to open relationship can be somehow justified. However, the way Halsin is forced into conversation and SH goes full Daddy Halsin mode in 2 dialogs is OOC.
I've dabbled in writing and have looked at numerous writer guides to get better. One of the main tips is to show, not tell.
With SH, all they've shown during her romance is a slow burn romance throughout the game. Aside from some light flirting with other companions, she only shows serious interest in the player.
We simply haven't been shown anything different, outside of optional side stuff. People can engage in this side content or even headcanon all they want but the slow burn romance is the only thing that is truly canon if you romance SH. And unless the writing is changed, that's just how it is.
You would expect her to act a little bit different in those situations.
Originally Posted by sezz
You guys seems to forget that the main issue is how poorly Halsin inclusion done . Her acceptance to open relationship can be somehow justified. However, the way Halsin is forced into conversation and SH goes full Daddy Halsin mode in 2 dialogs is OOC.
Oh noone denies that I would say 99% of the problem is Halsin and writing around him(At least act3).
You guys seems to forget that the main issue is how poorly Halsin inclusion done . Her acceptance to open relationship can be somehow justified. However, the way Halsin is forced into conversation and SH goes full Daddy Halsin mode in 2 dialogs is OOC.
Given how she flirts with the other companions in the early acts, it wouldn't be entirely OOC for her to do so with Halsin. IF it wasn't after you've established a committed relationship with her and it didn't involve him offering to join in on your intimate moments.
She could have lightly flirted with him, like the others, before act 3 but she was too busy hating him in act 2. I wouldn't have cared much if she had flirted before tbh, as its clearly just for fun. But the timing in act 3, the way it involves a highly intimate moment between the two of you, just makes it awkward. They definitely need to get rid if that banter, as it just doesn't fit with the times.
You guys seems to forget that the main issue is how poorly Halsin inclusion done . Her acceptance to open relationship can be somehow justified. However, the way Halsin is forced into conversation and SH goes full Daddy Halsin mode in 2 dialogs is OOC.
Given how she flirts with the other companions in the early acts, it wouldn't be entirely OOC for her to do so with Halsin. IF it wasn't after you've established a committed relationship with her and it didn't involve him offering to join in on your intimate moments.
She could have lightly flirted with him, like the others, before act 3 but she was too busy hating him in act 2. I wouldn't have cared much if she had flirted before tbh, as its clearly just for fun. But the timing in act 3, the way it involves a highly intimate moment between the two of you, just makes it awkward. They definitely need to get rid if that banter, as it just doesn't fit with the times.
It's even more awkward when you remember that he tries to get both("You and your love...") SH and player, especially if you rejected him before. A bit creepy, isn't it? Her response doesnt help either.
I've dabbled in writing and have looked at numerous writer guides to get better. One of the main tips is to show, not tell.
With SH, all they've shown during her romance is a slow burn romance throughout the game. Aside from some light flirting with other companions, she only shows serious interest in the player.
We simply haven't been shown anything different, outside of optional side stuff. People can engage in this side content or even headcanon all they want but the slow burn romance is the only thing that is truly canon if you romance SH. And unless the writing is changed, that's just how it is.
You would expect her to act a little bit different in those sitiations.
How so? The drow twins and Halsin are there specifically to cater to those who want group sex content. Of course they're going to make her into it. She's into whatever you make her into, to please the player. Her and Astarion are both designed for anything and everything, yet OOC when they do it. As I've said before, it's optional side porn quest. Not canon. If it were, it would have been made part of her main quest/romance.
[quote=sezz] She could have lightly flirted with him, like the others, before act 3 but she was too busy hating him in act 2. I wouldn't have cared much if she had flirted before tbh, as its clearly just for fun. But the timing in act 3, the way it involves a highly intimate moment between the two of you, just makes it awkward. They definitely need to get rid if that banter, as it just doesn't fit with the times.
You could read it as an enemies to lovers trope, but it isn't very well written and fleshed out in that case. How and when did that happen? (in the context of Tav also romancing Halsin I could see how Tav's influence might have brought them closer, but when Tav isn't interested in Halsin, when?, how?)
The banter could be meant to fit both exclusive and poly romance Shadowheart. With exclusive romance Shadowheart it might be supposed to be interpreted as that she is just joking with him (yeah, you would like that you horny furball, wouldn't you?), and with poly romance Shadowheart she is flirting with him. But it missed the mark with how most people would interpret it, especially in the context of the drow scene (yes, I would interpret it as flirting in both cases as well, just suggesting an alternative intention behind it).
Yeah I agree, I could see that. They're trying to juggle two wildly different experiences with her but have only managed to piss off both sides. Mostly, anyway. There are some who are happy with how it is now I guess.
Those who want monogamous SH and monogamous Halsin, then those who want a truly poly Halsin(not an open relationship) aren't happy. I have no idea how Larian is going to fix this so everyone is happy... or if they'll even bother at all.
Getting rid of the banter would be a good start though.
Yeah I agree, I could see that. They're trying to juggle two wildly different experiences with her but have only managed to piss off both sides. Mostly, anyway. There are some who are happy with how it is now I guess.
Those who want monogamous SH and monogamous Halsin, then those who want a truly poly Halsin(not an open relationship) aren't happy. I have no idea how Larian is going to fix this so everyone is happy... or if they'll even bother at all.
In my eyes at least SH situation is easily fixable without rewriting just with some flags. Other things are way harder.
Yeah I agree, I could see that. They're trying to juggle two wildly different experiences with her but have only managed to piss off both sides. Mostly, anyway. There are some who are happy with how it is now I guess.
Those who want monogamous SH and monogamous Halsin, then those who want a truly poly Halsin(not an open relationship) aren't happy. I have no idea how Larian is going to fix this so everyone is happy... or if they'll even bother at all.
I my eyes at least SH situation is easily fixable without rewriting just with some flags. Other things are way harder.
True, mostly it is just flags. But I also just simply want the option to refuse Halsin from joining the camp end of act 2... that's super weird that he can just decide that for us lmao
It just kind of hit me. You know how it's often said in this thread that Shadowheart takes a while to romance? I mean, you have to wait all the way until Act III. Right?
But then I started to think, what is that? Two weeks? You meet a girl, talk to her for a couple weeks, then she's skinny dipping with you, having sex with you... Not exactly prudish, i'd say.
It just kind of hit me. You know how it's often said in this thread that Shadowheart takes a while to romance? I mean, you have to wait all the way until Act III. Right?
But then I started to think, what is that? Two weeks? You meet a girl, talk to her for a couple weeks, then she's skinny dipping with you, having sex with you... Not exactly prudish, i'd say.
And yet she has one of the slowest burn romance of them all. Wait til you hear about Wyll and Gale's marriage proposals. In the amount of time it takes for SH to even sleep with you, they're like already popping the big question lmao
And then there's the record for fastest sex in the game... Lae'zel certainly makes SH look like a prude lol
You know something that I haven't seen touched on in the last several pages of this thread I've read (I haven't followed it from the beginning) is that we actually do get evidence that Shadowheart would be open to a poly relationship. If you've been romancing both her and Karlach, you have to choose after Karlach's heart gets fixed in act 2. If you suggest to SH that you don't have to choose between the two of them, (correct me if I'm misremembering) she declines not because she necessarily doesn't want to share you, but because she thinks Karlach deserves to have all of your attention, given her situation. The clear implication being that if Karlach weren't destined to die, Shadowheart would be open to it. And honestly that is a level of concern, thoughtfullness, honesty and emotional maturity that could be the foundation of a functional polyamorous relationship. And we do see throughout that the two of them have solid chemistry together. What stands out most in my mind is Karlach's reaction after Shadowheart betrays Shar. That dialogue alone convinces me that they could work in a relationship and be part of a genuinely healthy and mutually caring polyamorous relationship.
In contrast, the Halsin stuff is pretty much all just horniness and lust and the pair don't demonstrate anywhere near the same kind of bond at all. But it's probably for the best that Larian didn't try to make it work with Karlach and Shadowheart, clearly they lack writers who can see the difference between a genuine polyamorous relationship and a friends with benefits arrangement with extra decoration.
I can't find any evidence of this anywhere online where she says that about Karlach. The only thing I've seen people say is SH saying something like "I wish I was the one to give you that spring in your step" and then ending the romance.
And doesn't it seem a bit strange that this would only happen with Karlach? Why specifically her? I know she's flirted/complimented her but I'm pretty sure she flirted with Astarion and Gale too. Plus, if it were actual polyamory, why not ask to join in instead? Maybe Karlach wants her attention too..
In act 2, after you get Karlach's 2nd upgrade, she basically says she wants to touch everything and everyone lol and she'll kiss multiple faces. They could have made that the perfect opening for a poly/open relationship because they know Karlach's time is limited. Karlach is legitimately looking to have as much fun as she can.
They could have at least given an option to ask Karlach. Isn't it her who should ultimately decide what she needs and is comfortable with?
It's their endings that don't necessarily match up though, depending on your choices in SH's story especially. So maybe that's what the problem is really. You'd probably have to choose between them anyway.
Looks like I'll have to do another playthrough and romance them both to see for myself. I wish there was a list somewhere, of all the companion lines to the player, to make this easier lol
I think it would be great if there were a legitimate option like this though, because there isn't any poly/casual sex option for lesbians or straight men currently.
You know something that I haven't seen touched on in the last several pages of this thread I've read (I haven't followed it from the beginning) is that we actually do get evidence that Shadowheart would be open to a poly relationship. If you've been romancing both her and Karlach, you have to choose after Karlach's heart gets fixed in act 2. If you suggest to SH that you don't have to choose between the two of them, (correct me if I'm misremembering) she declines not because she necessarily doesn't want to share you, but because she thinks Karlach deserves to have all of your attention, given her situation. The clear implication being that if Karlach weren't destined to die, Shadowheart would be open to it. And honestly that is a level of concern, thoughtfullness, honesty and emotional maturity that could be the foundation of a functional polyamorous relationship. And we do see throughout that the two of them have solid chemistry together. What stands out most in my mind is Karlach's reaction after Shadowheart betrays Shar. That dialogue alone convinces me that they could work in a relationship and be part of a genuinely healthy and mutually caring polyamorous relationship.
In contrast, the Halsin stuff is pretty much all just horniness and lust and the pair don't demonstrate anywhere near the same kind of bond at all. But it's probably for the best that Larian didn't try to make it work with Karlach and Shadowheart, clearly they lack writers who can see the difference between a genuine polyamorous relationship and a friends with benefits arrangement with extra decoration.
Lets not make complicated more complicated. I think SH tries to hide her own emotions and vulnerabilities and redirects focus on other companion. Anyway, it is funny how SH thoughtfulness contradicts with Halsin lust.
I can't find any evidence of this anywhere online where she says that about Karlach. The only thing I've seen people say is SH saying something like "I wish I was the one to give you that spring in your step" and then ending the romance.
And doesn't it seem a bit strange that this would only happen with Karlach? Why specifically her? I know she's flirted/complimented her but I'm pretty sure she flirted with Astarion and Gale too. Plus, if it were actual polyamory, why not ask to join in instead? Maybe Karlach wants her attention too..
In act 2, after you get Karlach's 2nd upgrade, she basically says she wants to touch everything and everyone lol and she'll kiss multiple faces. They could have made that the perfect opening for a poly/open relationship because they know Karlach's time is limited. Karlach is legitimately looking to have as much fun as she can.
They could have at least given an option to ask Karlach. Isn't it her who should ultimately decide what she needs and is comfortable with?
It's their endings that don't necessarily match up though, depending on your choices in SH's story especially. So maybe that's what the problem is really. You'd probably have to choose between them anyway.
Looks like I'll have to do another playthrough and romance them both to see for myself. I wish there was a list somewhere, of all the companion lines to the player, to make this easier lol
I think it would be great if there were a legitimate option like this though, because there isn't any poly/casual sex option for lesbians or straight men currently.
There is such text if you start romancing SH and Karlach and choose Karlach at some point.
Player: I'm not a swan - I don't mate for life. I want to be with you and Karlach. Shadowheart: I admire your ambition - and your belief in your own stamina - but Karlach deserves to have you to herself. And perhaps there's yet someone out there for me... Shadowheart: And don't worry about me - I'll manage, one way or another. But I'll remember our little moments together fondly - they're amongst the few good memories I can lay claim to.
I guess SH generally prefers monogamous relationship. She accepts player's affair with Halsin since she is aware of wood elf nature (from wiki: Wood elven romantic and sexual relationships were often polyamorous in nature, members of the race freely engaging or ceasing relations with new partners.) very similar to Mizora case.
This is the evidence I was looking for. It further confirms SH is, canonically, only interested in monogamy. This is also like the opposite of how she responded with Mizora lol wtf
Of course, people can headcanon away, as Karlach SH and Tav would be hot together, let's be honest.
I imagine wood elves being the opposite of our world. Most would be polyamorous but I doubt every single one would be, like how ot is with monogamy here.
This is the evidence I was looking for. It further confirms SH is, canonically, only interested in monogamy. This is also like the opposite of how she responded with Mizora lol wtf
Of course, people can headcanon away, as Karlach SH and Tav would be hot together, let's be honest.
I imagine wood elves being the opposite of our world. Most would be polyamorous but I doubt every single one would be, like how ot is with monogamy here.
It's funny if you remember how Shadowheart makes emphasis on word "Swan" if you decided to cheat on her with Mizora.
It is not even slightly okay to accuse other forum members of this. No more please.
Already mentioned it in DM but you are correct, it was out of line no matter how I meant it. Apologies to Auric for that one.
Originally Posted by Auric
owheart writes him off. I was just discussing in those same posts how she pretty consistently lacks personal initiative. The only time she displays any at all is once you've already made her quite happy and more of an open book in your relationship, at which point she shows more confidence in asserting what she wants for herself. And again it runs through your choices, she only takes initiative for something you first show a shared interest with her in (which is yet another reason the act 3 Halsin stuff has to be revamped). It makes the ACTUAL inconsistency with Karlach stand out all the more because SHE'S the one who seems totally accepting of poly with Shadowheart, only to find out the timing of game events makes it impossible to achieve because Larian didn't fully develop the concept (or Karlach's own personal quest which might have also changed things in Act 3).
She's the one that invites the PC to the first romance scene at the party. She's also the one inviting you to the beach scene in act 3. That's plenty of initiative. And while it's left to interpretation what happens with companions between one another (except at the party), we know she won't do anything with another there, and we know that both Lae'zel and Astarion know Shadowheart is not one to randomly screw around. Astarion calls your relationship sweet, but not interesting or passionate. Lae'zel says she'll bore you with endless conversation. As for the Karlach situation, the argument that "they ran out of time to make her into a proper companion so she won't do poly/open" just sounds like an excuse. In act 2 they've written it very clearly that none of them want it, Karlach and Shadowheart included.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
Given how she flirts with the other companions in the early acts, it wouldn't be entirely OOC for her to do so with Halsin. IF it wasn't after you've established a committed relationship with her and it didn't involve him offering to join in on your intimate moments.
She could have lightly flirted with him, like the others, before act 3 but she was too busy hating him in act 2. I wouldn't have cared much if she had flirted before tbh, as its clearly just for fun. But the timing in act 3, the way it involves a highly intimate moment between the two of you, just makes it awkward. They definitely need to get rid if that banter, as it just doesn't fit with the times.
I'd still not buy it because there's still no argument for her to only be interested in open with Halsin and not the rest. But at least it'd make more sense than it does now, which is none at all. Though, by the time Halsin becomes a companion, she's already quite set on wanting you and no one else.
You know something that I haven't seen touched on in the last several pages of this thread I've read (I haven't followed it from the beginning) is that we actually do get evidence that Shadowheart would be open to a poly relationship. If you've been romancing both her and Karlach, you have to choose after Karlach's heart gets fixed in act 2. If you suggest to SH that you don't have to choose between the two of them, (correct me if I'm misremembering) she declines not because she necessarily doesn't want to share you, but because she thinks Karlach deserves to have all of your attention, given her situation. The clear implication being that if Karlach weren't destined to die, Shadowheart would be open to it. And honestly that is a level of concern, thoughtfullness, honesty and emotional maturity that could be the foundation of a functional polyamorous relationship. And we do see throughout that the two of them have solid chemistry together. What stands out most in my mind is Karlach's reaction after Shadowheart betrays Shar. That dialogue alone convinces me that they could work in a relationship and be part of a genuinely healthy and mutually caring polyamorous relationship.
But she doesn't. Which means she isn't open for poly or an open relationship. She gives a reason regardless of companion, but the Wyll one is most telling to me. I only have saves for the Karlach and Wyll situations.
When you start romancing Karlach:
Shadowheart: I can't help but notice you seem happier of late. There's a spring in your step that wasn't there before. Just a pity I'm not responsible for it. Tav: I'm not a swan - I don't mate for life. I want to be with you and Karlach. Shadowheart: I admire your ambition - and your belief in your own stamina - but Karlach deserves you to herself. And perhaps there's someone out there for me... Shadowheart: There's no hard feelings - genuinely. You deserve happiness, and I'm more than glad to remain with you to bear witness to it.
It is not mentioned that it's because of her situation. Otherwise, she'd be interested in hooking up after Karlach dies, no? But she's just straight up not interested in sharing. And well.. lets just remember this is what she says if you choose her over Karlach.
Shadowheart: I can't help but notice you seem happier of late. There's a spring in your step that wasn't there before. Just a pity I'm not responsible for it. Tav: I didn't realise you felt that way about me. Shadowheart: Sometimes it can be difficult to know what you want - what you need - until it's already lost to you. I know that from experience. Shadowheart: I won't lie. I won't pretend that part of me isn't hoping you'll look in my eye and still feel something. Shadowheart: Foolish, I know. But allow me to wallow in the fantasy a moment, bittersweet as it is. Tav: Wait. This is wrong. You're the one I'm supposed to be with. I see that now. Shadowheart: But what about Karlach? You'd break her heart just to be with me? Tav: Consider it done. Shadowheart: I won't lie... I feel a little sorry for her. But only a little bit. Shadowheart: You may be what's been missing from my life.
So it's quite clear she just doesn't want to share. She's straight up happy you dump Karlach and only feels a little sorry for her. The last line is defining that she wants you specifically, but if that's not enough, this is the reply if you ask for open/poly with Wyll.
Shadowheart: I can't help but notice you seem happier of late. There's a spring in your step that wasn't there before. Just a pity I'm not responsible for it. Tav: Must I choose between you and Wyll? We've travelled together, fought together, perhaps we can love together. Shadowheart: Wyll comes from an old, traditional line. I doubt his family would like their heir to introduce them to his lover's lover. Shadowheart: In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity. Shadowheart: There's no hard feelings - genuinely. You deserve happiness, and I'm more than glad to remain with you to bear witness to it.
Those are not the words of a person that's open to sharing. Ever. Because nothing at all ever indicates that she'd be any more of a spare lover to you with Wyll, Karlach, Gale, Astarion or Lae'zel than she would be with Halsin.
And it fits her main romance writing in act 3 perfectly.
Originally Posted by sezz
I guess SH generally prefers monogamous relationship. She accepts player's affair with Halsin since she is aware of wood elf nature (from wiki: Wood elven romantic and sexual relationships were often polyamorous in nature, members of the race freely engaging or ceasing relations with new partners.) very similar to Mizora case.
Unfortunately the Halsin excuse of him being a wood elf falls flat because my first Tav was a wood elf and she was still not interested in poly or open relationship. Never got a single dialogue option pop up that was related to me being a wood elf. Therefore, it is not acknowledged by the game.
You're like really good at spotting details. It's like a super power at this point, it's very impressive lol You brought the receipts and there's certainly no arguing facts. Well done
I also really liked Cowoline's post. It was very informative. I've been very confused as to why Halsin has been considered polyamorous, when that's not what you get in game. Surely Larian should have had experts on polyamory working with them on this? Anyway, shoot Cowoline an upvote if you agree.
Aye, there's been a lot of requests for it to change across the web. I don't think we have to really worry about them knowing about the concerns at least.
And of course, I have also upvoted your and others' feedback on discord, Backinstyle!
I guess SH generally prefers monogamous relationship. She accepts player's affair with Halsin since she is aware of wood elf nature (from wiki: Wood elven romantic and sexual relationships were often polyamorous in nature, members of the race freely engaging or ceasing relations with new partners.) very similar to Mizora case.
Unfortunately the Halsin excuse of him being a wood elf falls flat because my first Tav was a wood elf and she was still not interested in poly or open relationship. Never got a single dialogue option pop up that was related to me being a wood elf. Therefore, it is not acknowledged by the game.
Funny thing is, that poly nature of wood elves was described in one (1) DnD related novel and never set as a rule in any DnD rulebook of any edition. It does not mean, of course, that Larian could not establish such a rule, but if they do, they had to really make it known straight from the character creation screen.
I haven't been in this thread in a while and I have to say, my dudes I see a lot of cope going on, on both sides. You can rationalize all you want as to what makes or doesn't make sense but the answer is simple. To be blunt the issue is poor writing (whether you want to accept that or you enjoy parts of it) and the writers decision to season his stories with his own sexual interests.
And before someone decides to jump down my throat about attacking the writer or dismissing other peoples feelings, I don't care about your sexual interests and I don't not think less of you because of them. My point isn't to insult but to point out a certain thing. (observation)
He has written three companions (DOS2 and BG3) and in all three companions you can find aspects of cucking. (An apology to the Red Queen, I know you dislike the word but in this case it applies. Unless you can give me another name for it.) I would say he felt rather bold when he was writing Halsin since he also decided to add bestiality, a disgusting fetish that I might add Larian decided to market their game with. (No its not one 'funny scene', Halsin has in game/cut dialogue implying he has sexual relations with animals and the whole drow scene leans heavily into it also. As for those that would defend it by saying he is a druid, would you hold the same position if he were to turn into a child? And the consent thing, lol? Scooby-doo can also consent, at the end of the day you are still having sex with an animal.)
So with that said, no its not a bug, not its not an oversight. Its intended and you are not the audience for his characters. (Maybe these things will change if the backlash is loud enough but the same could've been said for Red Prince and he stayed the same)
As for the whole Mizora scene, yes the poor writing shines the most here since she contradicts everything she has said up to that point. And if you decide to sleep with someone else after the said scene she will go back to her base way of thinking and breaking up with the MC. (Unless its Halsin ofc)
And it was/is used to justify polyamory and the sudden change in character seeing how even the militant poly people of reddit are using that scene as a justification for her being poly. (A lot of people don't care about writing or it making sense but are mainly focusing on their own wish fulfillment with addition of projecting their own lives onto it, that's why you will find poly posters being offended as if you were attacking them.)
If multiple versions of a character are supposed to exist and just closing your eyes/ignoring it is enough then I ask for a scene where Wyll is okay with the MC slaughtering refugees in ACT3 and saying he never cared and enjoys mindless killing. Consistency be damned.
I will say this as a closing part of my post. I don't want to play a side NPC in a RPG whether that comes to the main story or romances. (So I don't want to go through a full campaign where my MC is the main hero only to be swept under the rug in the last 5min because a new NPC showed up and killed the bad guy without my input and I don't want to go through a whole romance where the character decided to cheat and the very end.)
ps. Queen you don't have to worry I probably won't be coming back to this thread any time soon.
I guess I fount cut dialog you were mentioning, still in game yet not triggered:
Lae'zel: You've quite the appetite, Halsin. I'd wager you've bedded more of your foes than you've felled. Halsin: Hmm. A challenging sum. The chimera has three heads... but does it still count as one? Lae'zel: Must have been a challenging kill. Halsin: Kill... yes.
I guess I fount cut dialog you were mentioning, still in game yet not triggered:
Lae'zel: You've quite the appetite, Halsin. I'd wager you've bedded more of your foes than you've felled. Halsin: Hmm. A challenging sum. The chimera has three heads... but does it still count as one? Lae'zel: Must have been a challenging kill. Halsin: Kill... yes.
Halsin was clearly "inspired" by Hiravias - a perverted very sexually active companion from the first Pillars of Eternity.
Example of his banter:
Hiravias: "...before I knew it, the stelgaer was on top of me and I was face down in the dirt." Sagani: "Arrow to the throat. That stops them." Hiravias: "What? No. I was spiritshifted. And she was in heat. So I aimed for the throat but not with an arrow..."
I guess I fount cut dialog you were mentioning, still in game yet not triggered:
Lae'zel: You've quite the appetite, Halsin. I'd wager you've bedded more of your foes than you've felled. Halsin: Hmm. A challenging sum. The chimera has three heads... but does it still count as one? Lae'zel: Must have been a challenging kill. Halsin: Kill... yes.
Oh gods, that's... I don't know, I have no good words, it's disgusting. Halsin, why? T_T The situation is worse than I thought.
Originally Posted by Amirit
Halsin was clearly "inspired" by Hiravias - a perverted very sexually active companion from the first Pillars of Eternity.
Example of his banter:
Hiravias: "...before I knew it, the stelgaer was on top of me and I was face down in the dirt." Sagani: "Arrow to the throat. That stops them." Hiravias: "What? No. I was spiritshifted. And she was in heat. So I aimed for the throat but not with an arrow..."
Oh, I remember this dialogue. A weird guy, but he's not bad (well, I played some portion of the game but he seemed ok to me).
I haven't been in this thread in a while and I have to say, my dudes I see a lot of cope going on, on both sides. You can rationalize all you want as to what makes or doesn't make sense but the answer is simple. To be blunt the issue is poor writing (whether you want to accept that or you enjoy parts of it) and the writers decision to season his stories with his own sexual interests.
And before someone decides to jump down my throat about attacking the writer or dismissing other peoples feelings, I don't care about your sexual interests and I don't not think less of you because of them. My point isn't to insult but to point out a certain thing. (observation)
He has written three companions (DOS2 and BG3) and in all three companions you can find aspects of cucking. (An apology to the Red Queen, I know you dislike the word but in this case it applies. Unless you can give me another name for it.) I would say he felt rather bold when he was writing Halsin since he also decided to add bestiality, a disgusting fetish that I might add Larian decided to market their game with. (No its not one 'funny scene', Halsin has in game/cut dialogue implying he has sexual relations with animals and the whole drow scene leans heavily into it also. As for those that would defend it by saying he is a druid, would you hold the same position if he were to turn into a child? And the consent thing, lol? Scooby-doo can also consent, at the end of the day you are still having sex with an animal.)
So with that said, no its not a bug, not its not an oversight. Its intended and you are not the audience for his characters. (Maybe these things will change if the backlash is loud enough but the same could've been said for Red Prince and he stayed the same)
As for the whole Mizora scene, yes the poor writing shines the most here since she contradicts everything she has said up to that point. And if you decide to sleep with someone else after the said scene she will go back to her base way of thinking and breaking up with the MC. (Unless its Halsin ofc)
And it was/is used to justify polyamory and the sudden change in character seeing how even the militant poly people of reddit are using that scene as a justification for her being poly. (A lot of people don't care about writing or it making sense but are mainly focusing on their own wish fulfillment with addition of projecting their own lives onto it, that's why you will find poly posters being offended as if you were attacking them.)
If multiple versions of a character are supposed to exist and just closing your eyes/ignoring it is enough then I ask for a scene where Wyll is okay with the MC slaughtering refugees in ACT3 and saying he never cared and enjoys mindless killing. Consistency be damned.
I will say this as a closing part of my post. I don't want to play a side NPC in a RPG whether that comes to the main story or romances. (So I don't want to go through a full campaign where my MC is the main hero only to be swept under the rug in the last 5min because a new NPC showed up and killed the bad guy without my input and I don't want to go through a whole romance where the character decided to cheat and the very end.)
ps. Queen you don't have to worry I probably won't be coming back to this thread any time soon.
I guess I fount cut dialog you were mentioning, still in game yet not triggered:
Lae'zel: You've quite the appetite, Halsin. I'd wager you've bedded more of your foes than you've felled. Halsin: Hmm. A challenging sum. The chimera has three heads... but does it still count as one? Lae'zel: Must have been a challenging kill. Halsin: Kill... yes.
I'll never understand people who so vehemently defend this character's behavior in act 3. Do they not want him to be an actual character? To have more personality than "I fuck"? Truly baffling that they're so okay with him beingna sexpest and literally nothing else to him.
No, he is not bad. And neither is Halsin. I only mean similarities.
And that's another character for comparison, thank you! We were looking similarities with Dragon Age characters in Halsin's topic since several of us played this series of games. Hiravias is a nice example too.
You know, I found that the people who would defend Shadowheart and Halsin's behavior to the death are people with a certain fetish, people who let horniness cloud all forms of logic, or the people who think that "straight men should have a taste of their own medicine" (don't ask me how people came to that conclusion).
No, he is not bad. And neither is Halsin. I only mean similarities.
And that's another character for comparison, thank you! We were looking similarities with Dragon Age characters in Halsin's topic since several of us played this series of games. Hiravias is a nice example too.
I've never felt that DA characters or any Bioware characters (played all BW games) were too horny. BG3 is closer to representing the current-day sexual revolution, I would say. I do not know what a very modern approach to romances from BW would look like. Yes, there was Iron Bull - an already not topical romance for BW. Still, BW was doing romances since forever, they have a certain style, and tons of feedback over the years to know what people want. And those of us appreciating such things got used to this style.
Obsidian (Pillars of Eternity), on the contrary, was actively avoiding romances wherever possible. Larian also began adding them not that long ago (from DOS2, I believe?). Hence, their approach is both very different, very modern in the most possible sexually free (I's say anarchic even) style, and kind of untested. So, the characters are also quite different.
I mean, it is hard to compare them to classy BW work. A couple more decades and Larian will get it too.
You know, I found that the people who would defend Shadowheart and Halsin's behavior to the death are people with a certain fetish, people who let horniness cloud all forms of logic, or the people who think that "straight men should have a taste of their own medicine" (don't ask me how people came to that conclusion).
That alone is messed up (and vindictive) as it is, but add on the fact that this affects lesbians too (which deal with unwanted advances from men often) that whole point of view is so toxic.
I've also recently had arguments with ppl about the importance of consent and boundaries, in which their replies were basically "Its a video game" "who cares" and "people can change their minds" etc.
I was also recently called a "bearphobe" despite never mentioning anything about the bear scene or bears at all. So I guess we're just making up words now lol
You know, I found that the people who would defend Shadowheart and Halsin's behavior to the death are people with a certain fetish, people who let horniness cloud all forms of logic, or the people who think that "straight men should have a taste of their own medicine" (don't ask me how people came to that conclusion).
That alone is messed up (and vindictive) as it is, but add on the fact that this affects lesbians too (which deal with unwanted advances from men often) that whole point of view is so toxic.
I've also recently had arguments with ppl about the importance of consent and boundaries, in which their replies were basically "Its a video game" "who cares" and "people can change their minds" etc.
I was also recently called a "bearphobe" despite never mentioning anything about the bear scene or bears at all. So I guess we're just making up words now lol
They'd even call you insecure and controlling for not being happy with it too.
Oh I know, it's very disturbing. And they'd even call you selfish and childish too, which is ironic lol It's no wonder Halsin turned out the way he did
You know, I found that the people who would defend Shadowheart and Halsin's behavior to the death are people with a certain fetish, people who let horniness cloud all forms of logic, or the people who think that "straight men should have a taste of their own medicine" (don't ask me how people came to that conclusion).
That alone is messed up (and vindictive) as it is, but add on the fact that this affects lesbians too (which deal with unwanted advances from men often) that whole point of view is so toxic.
I've also recently had arguments with ppl about the importance of consent and boundaries, in which their replies were basically "Its a video game" "who cares" and "people can change their minds" etc.
I was also recently called a "bearphobe" despite never mentioning anything about the bear scene or bears at all. So I guess we're just making up words now lol
Jesus... a "bearphobe". Bestiality fans are getting crazy these days.
But I got called a homophobe the other day by saying that people should not have their value judged by their sexuality, but their interests, personality and how they treat others, as well that people who are poly shouldn't automatically be considered hypersexual.
I really need folk in this thread to stop taking digs at folk who don’t share their particular reading of Halsin’s character or want different things than they do from the game. It doesn’t matter whether those views are expressed here or elsewhere, as these are public, open forums that anyone can read.
And please engage in good faith with arguments posted here, rather than importing one side of arguments elsewhere to these forums.
Another thing I find a little off-putting in act 3, is how after the house of grief, SH is just back to normal (except for that one scene by selune statue). She acts exactly how she did before this life altering choice and it's a little strange tbh.
Like obviously she's not going to let it get in the way of dealing with the Absolute and whatnot, but it would ne nice for Tav to be able to offer her more comfort at camp. Hugging her would obviously be wonderful, but like even some more words of comfort and sympathy, especially if you're romancing her.
I haven't done the save the parents route though, so maybe this is different for it?
The swan dialogue...I kinda wished I could have convinced them to go for the 3way. Karlach has quite an appetite and it might be easier to satisfy with 2 people. Also, she has a limited life expectancy. ...but there's the other point. Shadowheart might not be willing to share at that point because/she/ doesn't take you to bed herself yet. Lae'zel beds you act 1, Karlach act 2, but Shadowheart herself is super patient and waits for act 3. Since the other two bed you first, she won't keep you unless you choose her alone. It might be nice if you could invite Karlach for a 3some act 3 though. Particularly if Karlach banged you in act 2.
Hypothetically, if SH was willing to share, I could see her not accepting anything less than primary partner and wanting to bed you first. Then poor touch starved Karlach would have to wait even longer, and Lae'zel would likely be pissed off at SH again lol
As much as I want more female poly/group options (for equality and roleplay potential), I'm not sure SH would be compatible with them tbh. She'd be way too slow for them lol
Wanting to be primary partner is exactly why she should accept Karlach...pragmatism in knowing Karlach will die off in a few weeks anyway.
Shadowheart wouldn't let the player follow Karlach to Avernus, but any fate less than that she should in theory be fine with. It's like taking a very temporary concubine.
Why are we talking about adding more poly options when this thread is about being blindsided by poly stuff when you thought you were getting a monogamous relationship with Shadowheart. The ability to have a monogamous relationship with her needs to be fixed before anything else.
The problem is that SH isn't ready to bed the player until Act 3 because of her Shar stuff. Karlach having to wait on SH before she can be touched would be brutal tbh.
Karlach and Lae'zel on the other hand would absolutely be compatible. It's not like Lae'zel doesn't compliment Karlach every chance she gets lol And they wouldn't have to wait on anyone.
It would be worth the wait for the player though. Of the three of them, only Shadowheart can give the player a family. Lae'zel has odd biology and lays eggs, and Karlach wouldn't survive a pregnancy in Avernus.
It's the family in the end option that makes it wise for Tav to wait. ...the other other option is the very canon Minthara actually Giving the player babies.
Yes, you're right. It was all good fun though, just hypothetical. We've already established that SH isn't interested in polyamory or casual sex anyway, canonically.
Why are we talking about adding more poly options when this thread is about being blindsided by poly stuff when you thought you were getting a monogamous relationship with Shadowheart. The ability to have a monogamous relationship with her needs to be fixed before anything else.
The problem isn't that Shadowheart is poly, it's that she's so very inconsistent about it. I at least want her character to flow better...it's clear Shadowheart has got some serious kinks to satisfy but only rarely reveals them.
Yeah throughout this thread we've analyzed everything about SH. Her behaviors and dialogue all point to her being only interested in the player and the player only - monogamy. To be clear, that doesn't include the optional, noncanon stuff because that stuff doesn't count.
Should be a couple pages back, but there's a couple posts by Michieltjuhh that bring the receipts on this and we simply can't argue the facts.
Shadowheart might not be willing to share at that point because/she/ doesn't take you to bed herself yet.
This would be hypothetical at best because it's never implied to be the case plus she clearly states she wants you alone regardless. But then you have to remember that the Halsin proposal happens before her final romance scene and suddenly this argument is void.
That said, some minor rewriting and making Karlach an option for open relationship would be the obvious first step to fixing this inconsistent stuff in a direction where she would work as poly, though I'd argue sharing someone you haven't bedded yet is.. odd nonetheless. And then her devotion in act 3 comes out of left field instead.
Originally Posted by Angelalex242
The problem isn't that Shadowheart is poly, it's that she's so very inconsistent about it. I at least want her character to flow better...it's clear Shadowheart has got some serious kinks to satisfy but only rarely reveals them.
Other than the Abdirak scene, when is this actually implied though? The drows? There she's out of character in the first place. And during the Abdirak scene she still has fond memories of her actions at the House of Grief, the torture she inflicted and all that, due to having been recently mind wiped into thinking so. Which is confirmed upon first meeting Raphael, and upon failing the first persuasion check in her first romance scene and some other scenarios I can't recall exactly.
At the House of Grief she starts remembering and noticing the less pleasant parts of it and is disgusted by her actions. Then Shar brings all the negative memories back. After that I can't fathom she'll look at any of those scenarios with anything more than PTSD. It'll just remind her of what she did to her parents.
Either way, that's theory. Reality is at least that she calls the epilogue night together 'perfect' and while we don't get to see what happens there, it's clear we're capable of satisfying whatever she wants.
This would be hypothetical at best because it's never implied to be the case plus she clearly states she wants you alone regardless. But then you have to remember that the Halsin proposal happens before her final romance scene and suddenly this argument is void.
That said, some minor rewriting and making Karlach an option for open relationship would be the obvious first step to fixing this inconsistent stuff in a direction where she would work as poly, though I'd argue sharing someone you haven't bedded yet is.. odd nonetheless. And then her devotion in act 3 comes out of left field instead.
I think minor rewriting in her conversation about Halsin proposal would do better honestly. To make her maybe less enthusiastic about it? And again just removing Halsin/SH banter or locking it behind double romance only(Alternatively they could rewrite it of course) and tweaking Drow convo(Remove disapproval at least, rewrite scene itself to include options to avoid certain writer's fetish. Or just remove halsin self-insert if not romanced completely) would do amazing already.
She is good as she is, just Halsin stuff needs to be fixed as he is the catalyst for all this.
I think minor rewriting in her conversation about Halsin proposal would do better honestly. To make her maybe less enthusiastic about it? And again just removing Halsin/SH banter or locking it behind double romance only(Alternatively they could rewrite it of course) and tweaking Drow convo(Remove disapproval at least, rewrite scene itself to include options to avoid certain writer's fetish. Or just remove halsin self-insert if not romanced completely) would do amazing already.
She is good as she is, just Halsin stuff needs to be fixed as he is the catalyst for all this.
So long as she accepts the Halsin proposal, I consider it out of character, no matter how unhappy she would be about it. Same way I consider Astarion's version out of character for him, and he doesn't show the same enthusiasm. The second either of them agrees regardless of the tone of their voice, I'd want to be able to ask "why Halsin and not the others though?" and that would need some serious explaining that will never happen.
And yes, the banter needs removal entirely regardless unless they rewrite her to be poly from the ground up (a lot of work right there since her act 3 romance arc will no longer fit her character), and then it should be locked behind romancing both.
I think minor rewriting in her conversation about Halsin proposal would do better honestly. To make her maybe less enthusiastic about it? And again just removing Halsin/SH banter or locking it behind double romance only(Alternatively they could rewrite it of course) and tweaking Drow convo(Remove disapproval at least, rewrite scene itself to include options to avoid certain writer's fetish. Or just remove halsin self-insert if not romanced completely) would do amazing already.
She is good as she is, just Halsin stuff needs to be fixed as he is the catalyst for all this.
So long as she accepts the Halsin proposal, I consider it out of character, no matter how unhappy she would be about it. Same way I consider Astarion's version out of character for him, and he doesn't show the same enthusiasm. The second either of them agrees regardless of the tone of their voice, I'd want to be able to ask "why Halsin and not the others though?" and that would need some serious explaining that will never happen.
And yes, the banter needs removal entirely regardless unless they rewrite her to be poly from the ground up (a lot of work right there since her act 3 romance arc will no longer fit her character), and then it should be locked behind romancing both.
Her entire act1-2 needs to be rewritten to justify poly and so are Astarion's and Karlach's because they are not interested in poly either, but they will agree to include Halsin. So AGAIN its just a Halsin problem. At worst they could just specify that Halsin is not even a relationship, but just fling, casual sex source and SH/Astarion/Karlach don't feel "threatened" in their relationship with Tav. I like my Shadowheart the way she is(If I close my eyes and pretend that Halsin doesn't exist and gets fixed somehow), plus its probably way easier to fix Halsin than rewrite 3 characters to justify him, lmao. Thats my take.
The mere thought of them rewriting her to justify poly better makes my skin crawl. The poly crowd has already been pleased just fix what's there for the people that want a monogamous relationship with her. If they rewrite her to make poly her default I'm never touching this game again or any Larian game in the future.
The mere thought of them rewriting her to justify poly better makes my skin crawl. The poly crowd has already been pleased just fix what's there for the people that want a monogamous relationship with her. If they rewrite her to make poly her default I'm never touching this game again or any Larian game in the future.
All I want is good mono relationship with SH. And I dont want to feel "cucked" if I decide to go to drows(It has nothing to do with poly, scene is just questionable), I don't want to get disapproval for rejecting Halsin there, I don't want to hear flirt banter if I'm not in duo romance.
The mere thought of them rewriting her to justify poly better makes my skin crawl. The poly crowd has already been pleased just fix what's there for the people that want a monogamous relationship with her. If they rewrite her to make poly her default I'm never touching this game again or any Larian game in the future.
All I want is good mono relationship with SH. And I dont want to feel "cucked" if I decide to go to drows(It has nothing to do with poly, scene is just questionable), I don't want to get disapproval for rejecting Halsin there, I don't want to hear flirt banter if I'm not in duo romance.
Could not agree more. While not something I have interest in, hiring sex workers you'll never see again for a single night of fun with your significant other should not automatically lead to you having to open the relationship to somebody you're much more closely involved with as a companion and I guess friend. And when you try to make this point people jump down your throat like how dare you try to control her or like why are you the only one that gets to pick who you sleep with. Like I don't get how people can't see the difference here.
And this is why Halsin should just be out of the picture entirely, and a SH Karlach Lae'zel + Tav ( might as well add Minthara cuz why not) should just work instead.
And this is why Halsin should just be out of the picture entirely, and a SH Karlach Lae'zel + Tav ( might as well add Minthara cuz why not) should just work instead.
I'd prefer they just keep them all mono to be honest, instead of adding diversity options. Normally I'd be completely fine with it, but I feel act 3 is already lacking so much content for just their mono paths. It makes me worried that if they were to add more options, they'd just spread their resources too thin and we'd just get more half baked romance stories instead of one full fledged one per companion.
And this is why Halsin should just be out of the picture entirely, and a SH Karlach Lae'zel + Tav ( might as well add Minthara cuz why not) should just work instead.
Personally with how messy the poly stuff is right now, I don't think I'd be a fan of how they'd do it on a larger scale.
At worst they could just specify that Halsin is not even a relationship, but just fling, casual sex source and SH/Astarion/Karlach don't feel "threatened" in their relationship with Tav.
Astarion says exactly this when you bring it up to him, so at least in his case that is what the game assumes.
At worst they could just specify that Halsin is not even a relationship, but just fling, casual sex source and SH/Astarion/Karlach don't feel "threatened" in their relationship with Tav.
Astarion says exactly this when you bring it up to him, so at least in his case that is what the game assumes.
Im convinced this is how Halsin "relationship" all of them see. This way at least it's not out of character for them. Still the point about banter as valid as ever and so is drow-twins encounter.
At worst they could just specify that Halsin is not even a relationship, but just fling, casual sex source and SH/Astarion/Karlach don't feel "threatened" in their relationship with Tav.
Astarion says exactly this when you bring it up to him, so at least in his case that is what the game assumes.
It's such a ridiculous assumption though. Sure, maybe that's the way the characters would view it but for the vast majority of players a "fling" when you're in a committed relationship is cheating, plain and simple. I swear the writers and this community are trying to gaslight me into thinking poly relationships are the standard. I don't want that I want my character to have a monogamous relationship with Shadowheart.
It's such a ridiculous assumption though. Sure, maybe that's the way the characters would view it but for the vast majority of players a "fling" when you're in a committed relationship is cheating, plain and simple. I swear the writers and this community are trying to gaslight me into thinking poly relationships are the standard. I don't want that I want my character to have a monogamous relationship with Shadowheart.
Well this way(if Astarion/SH/Karlach treat Halsin no more than a casual sex source for Tav) its atleast not entirely OOC. Its not a poly thing, more of open relationship. It's ok for both sides, except for Halsin fans it's a bit disrespectful, instead of actual relationship its just a fling.
Im convinced this is how Halsin "relationship" all of them see. This way at least it's not out of character for them. Still the point about banter as valid as ever and so is drow-twins encounter.
No reason to assume it with Halsin and not assume it with any other companions. Especially since you have to ignore a lot of implications to reach that conclusion (them calling Halsin poly, the dialogues regarding an open relationship with other companions, especially Wyll, indicating she'd not even be open to sharing once).
That exchange I had with angel last night I thought was all hypothetical, just fun headcanon stuff. We've already confirmed SH is monogamous.
We've talked about her being monogamous, but what we haven't touched on is how deeply romantic SH is. Drinking wine and talking near a waterfall; swimming and making love on the beach under the moonlight; and even just the way she speaks to you in act 3 are all incredibly romantic. This is how I believe she was intended.
But then they brought the orgy stuff and Halsin into play, and being a hot half elf, decided to force her into it. They distorted her, reducing her into a sex doll, and now thats all some people see. That really pisses me off, but what pisses me off the most is this sex doll version of her is seeped into the beautiful, romantic version and sullies it. They should have been more careful not to let this stuff seep into her intended romance. Now they need to fix it.
That exchange I had with angel last night I thought was all hypothetical, just fun headcanon stuff. We've already confirmed SH is monogamous.
We've talked about her being monogamous, but what we haven't touched on is how deeply romantic SH is. Drinking wine and talking near a waterfall; swimming and making love on the beach under the moonlight; and even just the way she speaks to you in act 3 are all incredibly romantic. This is how I believe she was intended.
But then they brought the orgy stuff and Halsin into play, and being a hot half elf, decided to force her into it. They distorted her, reducing her into a sex doll, and now thats all some people see. That really pisses me off, but what pisses me off the most is this sex doll version of her is seeped into the beautiful, romantic version and sullies it. They should have been more careful not to let this stuff seep into her intended romance. Now they need to fix it.
ikr, first when I started the game(Also played EA) I was just goofing around with friends in multiplayer not really thinking about anything, completely randomly got invited by her after saving the grove and...wow. I think I 've never thought I would be so engaged with fictional character, her story is really romantic and beautiful. I unironically think John did amazing job writing her. Just that damn Halsin thing that leaves sour taste...
Yeah exactly, as soon as Halsin got involved they turned her into something else entirely. But on her own she's so romantic and only interested in the player; it's completely epic. It's such a shame that they did that to her, for no other reason than she's part elf and hot.
Personally I think Lae'zel would have made a better fit for it.
Yeah exactly, as soon as Halsin got involved they turned her into something else entirely. But on her own she's so romantic and only interested in the player; it's completely epic. It's such a shame that they did that to her, for no other reason than she's part elf and hot.
Personally I think Lae'zel would have made a better fit for it.
What a twist that Lae'zel ended up being the based monogamous pick instead of Shadowheart. Again, I can't understate it enough that this inclusion of poly/open relationship content was a mistake. Should have been every character being mono and that once you're locked into a romance, that's it. Like it's too complicated to write well, evidently shown with how it's been handled so far.
Might be me going off tangent, but a source of me not liking poly/harem stuff is that I don't like the idea of my partner being with someone else at all, therefore I don't want to impose that on them either. With how Shadowheart behaved on the beach and when she confessed her love with how sweet it was, she then proceeds to flirt with someone else the day after. Major whiplash, was what that was for me. Also why is she super ready for an orgy when it took a pretty long time for our character to get close to her? I'm not good at arguing at all, but it's still annoying when you're not taken seriously. Why am I not allowed to be upset at this?
I mean it's a pretty traditional romance story of you courting her throughout act 1 with the 'first date' vibe cliff scene, confessing your love for each other in act 2 and having a sweet love scene that also helps her get over her past trauma in act 3, followed by wanting to spend the rest of your life together and starting a family when the world is savedTM. While making it more interesting in that neither of you know she even has that trauma because of the forced amnesia and thus she's somewhat distant and secretive at the start, and as things unfold you both come to realize her being under Shar's control isn't good for her. Which makes it fit well with Dark Urge because that story is somewhat similar, so then it doesn't feel like she's the only one going through shit and the support isn't a one-way thing.
None of it screams 'girl that's dtf everything that moves' which she turns into in act 3 and only during these optional scenarios, while remaining true to her writing for the rest of the romance story. But we already know all of that. I disagree that poly or open would work for Lae'zel though. Only act 1 Lae'zel and Astarion fit this bill, but they both change in act 2 as well. And if you read between the lines a little, Karlach throughout the game can fit it somewhat.
That exchange I had with angel last night I thought was all hypothetical, just fun headcanon stuff. We've already confirmed SH is monogamous.
We've talked about her being monogamous, but what we haven't touched on is how deeply romantic SH is. Drinking wine and talking near a waterfall; swimming and making love on the beach under the moonlight; and even just the way she speaks to you in act 3 are all incredibly romantic. This is how I believe she was intended.
But then they brought the orgy stuff and Halsin into play, and being a hot half elf, decided to force her into it. They distorted her, reducing her into a sex doll, and now thats all some people see. That really pisses me off, but what pisses me off the most is this sex doll version of her is seeped into the beautiful, romantic version and sullies it. They should have been more careful not to let this stuff seep into her intended romance. Now they need to fix it.
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
I mean it's a pretty traditional romance story of you courting her throughout act 1 with the 'first date' vibe cliff scene, confessing your love for each other in act 2 and having a sweet love scene that also helps her get over her past trauma in act 3, followed by wanting to spend the rest of your life together and starting a family when the world is savedTM. While making it more interesting in that neither of you know she even has that trauma because of the forced amnesia and thus she's somewhat distant and secretive at the start, and as things unfold you both come to realize her being under Shar's control isn't good for her. Which makes it fit well with Dark Urge because that story is somewhat similar, so then it doesn't feel like she's the only one going through shit and the support isn't a one-way thing.
None of it screams 'girl that's dtf everything that moves' which she turns into in act 3 and only during these optional scenarios, while remaining true to her writing for the rest of the romance story. But we already know all of that. I disagree that poly or open would work for Lae'zel though. Only act 1 Lae'zel and Astarion fit this bill, but they both change in act 2 as well. And if you read between the lines a little, Karlach throughout the game can fit it somewhat.
God reading these posts just made me even more angry about what they did to her. It's just so fucking out of left field and that people can't see it and belittle you for having that opinion is so infuriating.
God reading these posts just made me even more angry about what they did to her. It's just so fucking out of left field and that people can't see it and belittle you for having that opinion is so infuriating.
Don't be, just don't bring Halsin and enjoy what's there while we await whatever content they're cooking up for us.
So has Larian acknowledged this problem? I, luckily, haven't encountered it in my first playthrough, he was at my camp whole time, but seeing this just fills me with unspeakable disdain for this Halsin character, so I just killed him in the goblin camp in my next 2 playthroughs. What even is his essence past act 2? Getting abducted by Orin? Being a sexual degenerate? Why can't I forbid him, and only him, from joining my party? Why am I forced to include him and endure his worthless company if I want to be a good guy, without any opportunity to separate?
God reading these posts just made me even more angry about what they did to her. It's just so fucking out of left field and that people can't see it and belittle you for having that opinion is so infuriating.
Don't be, just don't bring Halsin and enjoy what's there while we await whatever content they're cooking up for us.
Why would I be excited for anything else after this? They already ruined her romance once there's no reason to have any confidence that they're going to fix it or make it any better when/if they add to it in a theoretical definitive edition or DLC.
So has Larian acknowledged this problem? I, luckily, haven't encountered it in my first playthrough, he was at my camp whole time, but seeing this just fills me with unspeakable disdain for this Halsin character, so I just killed him in the goblin camp in my next 2 playthroughs. What even is his essence past act 2? Getting abducted by Orin? Being a sexual degenerate? Why can't I forbid him, and only him, from joining my party? Why am I forced to include him and endure his worthless company if I want to be a good guy, without any opportunity to separate?
What problem do they even see in their eyes? This thread is like 5-10 of the same people just going back and forth. As much as I want change why would they change anything based on the opinion out of 5-10 people out of millions?
So has Larian acknowledged this problem? I, luckily, haven't encountered it in my first playthrough, he was at my camp whole time, but seeing this just fills me with unspeakable disdain for this Halsin character, so I just killed him in the goblin camp in my next 2 playthroughs. What even is his essence past act 2? Getting abducted by Orin? Being a sexual degenerate? Why can't I forbid him, and only him, from joining my party? Why am I forced to include him and endure his worthless company if I want to be a good guy, without any opportunity to separate?
What problem do they even see in their eyes? This thread is like 5-10 of the same people just going back and forth. As much as I want change why would they change anything based on the opinion out of 5-10 people out of millions?
Well 50% players that bought the game didn't even make it past act 1. Also its not as "easy" to encounter in act 3. Also not many ppl use reddit/forums or willing to give feedback. You have to take this all in consideration. As far as it is right now - I would say there is at least some whiplash.
So has Larian acknowledged this problem? I, luckily, haven't encountered it in my first playthrough, he was at my camp whole time, but seeing this just fills me with unspeakable disdain for this Halsin character, so I just killed him in the goblin camp in my next 2 playthroughs. What even is his essence past act 2? Getting abducted by Orin? Being a sexual degenerate? Why can't I forbid him, and only him, from joining my party? Why am I forced to include him and endure his worthless company if I want to be a good guy, without any opportunity to separate?
What problem do they even see in their eyes? This thread is like 5-10 of the same people just going back and forth. As much as I want change why would they change anything based on the opinion out of 5-10 people out of millions?
Well 50% players that bought the game didn't even make it past act 1. Also its not as "easy" to encounter in act 3. Also not many ppl use reddit/forums or willing to give feedback. You have to take this all in consideration. As far as it is right now - I would say there is at least some whiplash.
What whiplash? I'm way more invested in this particular problem and this character than any person should be in a fictional character. I search this stuff every day multiple times a day on Twitter, Discord, Reddit, etc. Yes, there are a few people here and there voicing their distaste for it but the overwhelming majority is in favor of it. They refuse to see the horrid inconsistencies of the situation often citing a throwaway banter line about preferring short-term engagements back in act 1 as proof or her flirty dialogue with characters BEFORE you are even committed to each other. Mind you a lot of characters have flirty dialogue with each other not just her. I just don't see the uproar that I feel it deserves and a big part of that is because if you argue that you want her romance to be more monogamous, that the scene on the beach actually have meaning, you're just an incel or you're trying to control her and other things of that nature.
What whiplash? I'm way more invested in this particular problem and this character than any person should be in a fictional character. I search this stuff every day multiple times a day on Twitter, Discord, Reddit, etc. Yes, there are a few people here and there voicing their distaste for it but the overwhelming majority is in favor of it. They refuse to see the horrid inconsistencies of the situation often citing a throwaway banter line about preferring short-term engagements back in act 1 as proof or her flirty dialogue with characters BEFORE you are even committed to each other. Mind you a lot of characters have flirty dialogue with each other not just her. I just don't see the uproar that I feel it deserves and a big part of that is because if you argue that you want her romance to be more monogamous, that the scene on the beach actually have meaning, you're just an incel or you're trying to control her and other things of that nature.
I would say the most sensitive topics are : Endings>JusticeforKarlach>Minthara>Halsin(adn SH interaction) as it stand right now. Its not that bad, don't give up just yet.
The way they argue is like when someone punches you, you call them out on it and then they say "did not". This is whenever you bring up that this whole debacle feels like a certain fetish that's not popularly accepted by the majority of people (outside the internet anyway), then they tell you it's not when it quite literally is written that way. That and you shouldn't take this seriously when I'm almost certain they would take other things in the game just as seriously too.
I dunno if I should have faith in Larian or not, because these are the same people who said that Karlach got an "ending that she deserves" in one of the patches, because going back to Hell is definitely what she deserves. And support for her not getting shat on by her endings was way more than what we're doing here. I know, I was one of them.
If you look at threads like in their Discord then problems with this get 65+ votes to change this thing with Shadowheart and Halsin, while the once campaigning to preserve it don't even reach 15.
So the vocal majority/campaigning majority against this is larger.
You also need to remember that this is not just this, bit Halsin's character. And his character has MASSIVE issues. He is the least used companion, there are multiple reasons why people dislike him, there are thread everywhere about him.
Articles are published about how horrible his romance is and how people are saying he should never have been made a companion.
The Shadowheart may seem small to some, but since Halsin's character as a whole is a disaster to many who requested him in the first place, and I have been in contact with 17 SA victims who have been severely triggered by Halsin.
Halsin fans and Shadowheart fans are currently supporting each other.
I can't promise anything will happen, but there is more attention put on this than you suggest.
I am right about the information, but if they will do anything about it is anyone's guess.
From what we know about the internal passion at Larian for this content, and that the major flaws surrounding the Red Prince was never fixed - I don't have great hopes.
I wish they would fix it so I could actually play the game again without being constantly triggered by multiple traumas.
I love Halsin, but at this point I just want the option to dismiss him from camp.
ikr, first when I started the game(Also played EA) I was just goofing around with friends in multiplayer not really thinking about anything, completely randomly got invited by her after saving the grove and...wow. I think I 've never thought I would be so engaged with fictional character, her story is really romantic and beautiful. I unironically think John did amazing job writing her. Just that damn Halsin thing that leaves sour taste...
*member of team Halsin here* I can say the same about Halsin. I was just exploring EA, I met him and had a short conversation, then the game was released, I reached act 2 and OMG this man just won my heart. I also don't remember the time when I was so interested in a fictional character so I could fell in love with him. And there was act 3 and... well.. I can only say (and people in both our threads would agree) we are colleagues in misfortune. Feels like their writer has some strange relationship towards SH and Halsin, like he loves them and dislikes them at the same time or he didn't really know what to do with them at some point of the story.
The way they argue is like when someone punches you, you call them out on it and then they say "did not". This is whenever you bring up that this whole debacle feels like a certain fetish that's not popularly accepted by the majority of people (outside the internet anyway), then they tell you it's not when it quite literally is written that way. That and you shouldn't take this seriously when I'm almost certain they would take other things in the game just as seriously too.
I believe, in most cases at least, it's just misunderstanding of SH character overall, and most importantly the timing this whole stuff gets revealed. And it gets revealed after 2 acts of anticipation, 2 acts of you working hard to earn her trust, to know her better, help her to remember her past, to become that person she's been missing her whole life and getting so close, that under your influence she defies evil goddess whom she served all life as she can remember. Then you get long-awaited love scene and the dialog about your future, basically securing your bond. And she specifically says, how she wants to share her life with you. At this point there should not be even a thought about poly relationship, yet here we are. And game actually plays out like it should, unless you have halsin, and only him, as an active member of your party.
I am right about the information, but if they will do anything about it is anyone's guess.
From what we know about the internal passion at Larian for this content, and that the major flaws surrounding the Red Prince was never fixed - I don't have great hopes.
I wish they would fix it so I could actually play the game again without being constantly triggered by multiple traumas.
I love Halsin, but at this point I just want the option to dismiss him from camp.
This is pretty much where I'm at too. Just getting to dismiss him is the least they can do.
Everything else is hope for the best, expect the worst/nothing. I won't be buying any future games from Larian though.
I am right about the information, but if they will do anything about it is anyone's guess.
From what we know about the internal passion at Larian for this content, and that the major flaws surrounding the Red Prince was never fixed - I don't have great hopes.
I wish they would fix it so I could actually play the game again without being constantly triggered by multiple traumas.
I love Halsin, but at this point I just want the option to dismiss him from camp.
This is pretty much where I'm at too. Just getting to dismiss him is the least they can do.
Everything else is hope for the best, expect the worst/nothing. I won't be buying any future games from Larian though.
I'm very hopeful that a "Dismiss Halsin" mod will be made fairly soon. That doesn't sound like such a leap from what I'm seeing modders doing recently.
And ditto, this is my first and will be my last Larian game. I'm also glad that this one was a gift so I didn't spend any money on it.
Where would we be without modders, they are such godsends. I feel bad for console players though who won't have that option.
I'm so jealous, I spent $90 (CDN) on this and I'm deeply regretting it...But now I'm invested financially and emotionally dammit lmao I really don't feel like I got my monies worth tbh.
They refuse to see the horrid inconsistencies of the situation often citing a throwaway banter line about preferring short-term engagements back in act 1 as proof or her flirty dialogue with characters BEFORE you are even committed to each other. Mind you a lot of characters have flirty dialogue with each other not just her.
Haha, I love the idea that people use that one line as an argument AGAINST her being mono. That line is one of the best in the game. If John wrote it I have to give him massive credit for such beautiful foreshadowing. It's literally at the start of the first act and it foreshadows the very epilogue of the game. The line goes as follows, after Gale (I think) asks if the others have someone in Baldur's Gate: Shadowheart: You mean just waiting, like a lovesick puppy? Short-term amusements are much less hassle.
Of course, we know exactly why she's not hyped about relationships. Shar doesn't want them to have one, and she's been recently mind wiped into being a perfectly good Shar slave before you meet her and cause her to fall in love with you and abandon Shar for you.
Now look at the epilogue. She has devoted herself fully to you. To the point that if you decide not to be with her, after she specifically asks you to do so, she'll say that she will be - you guessed it - waiting for you. Like a lovesick puppy.
Of course you're not meant to choose that, you're supposed to be with her unless you've been the one leading her on all along. However, it shows she has become that which she supposedly disliked, because she found her true self throughout the game - with you. It's amazing character development, and incredible foreshadowing for something that can be overlooked so easily. And apparently, has been overlooked by many. The writers don't get enough credit sometimes.
I don't understand the need for a mod. Everything discussed in this thread can be 100% avoided without any mods. The issue is it existing at all contradicts so much about her romance and characterization to the point that it ruins her for people. Honestly after reading some of the posts in the last couple pages I don't believe it belongs in the game at all at least for her. I no longer think there should be any compromise for people that want poly content for her and that if they want poly content it should be given to a brand new character or someone else like Karlach who would make so much more sense than Shadowheart. I do not view her as poly in any way, shape, or form.
They refuse to see the horrid inconsistencies of the situation often citing a throwaway banter line about preferring short-term engagements back in act 1 as proof or her flirty dialogue with characters BEFORE you are even committed to each other. Mind you a lot of characters have flirty dialogue with each other not just her.
Haha, I love the idea that people use that one line as an argument AGAINST her being mono. That line is one of the best in the game. If John wrote it I have to give him massive credit for such beautiful foreshadowing. It's literally at the start of the first act and it foreshadows the very epilogue of the game. The line goes as follows, after Gale (I think) asks if the others have someone in Baldur's Gate: Shadowheart: You mean just waiting, like a lovesick puppy? Short-term amusements are much less hassle.
Of course, we know exactly why she's not hyped about relationships. Shar doesn't want them to have one, and she's been recently mind wiped into being a perfectly good Shar slave before you meet her and cause her to fall in love with you and abandon Shar for you.
Now look at the epilogue. She has devoted herself fully to you. To the point that if you decide not to be with her, after she specifically asks you to do so, she'll say that she will be - you guessed it - waiting for you. Like a lovesick puppy.
Of course you're not meant to choose that, you're supposed to be with her unless you've been the one leading her on all along. However, it shows she has become that which she supposedly disliked, because she found her true self throughout the game - with you. It's amazing character development, and incredible foreshadowing for something that can be overlooked so easily. And apparently, has been overlooked by many. The writers don't get enough credit sometimes.
I was too dumb to put that together but another excellent point. Again, she is not poly.
I believe, in most cases at least, it's just misunderstanding of SH character overall, and most importantly the timing this whole stuff gets revealed. And it gets revealed after 2 acts of anticipation, 2 acts of you working hard to earn her trust, to know her better, help her to remember her past, to become that person she's been missing her whole life and getting so close, that under your influence she defies evil goddess whom she served all life as she can remember. Then you get long-awaited love scene and the dialog about your future, basically securing your bond. And she specifically says, how she wants to share her life with you. At this point there should not be even a thought about poly relationship, yet here we are. And game actually plays out like it should, unless you have halsin, and only him, as an active member of your party.
Just remember that even when you bring Halsin along and any of this dialogue plays, it has absolutely no impact on the future dialogues. It's completely inconsequential. That alone should tell you enough about how canon and intended it really is - it doesn't change anything. Just shrug it off for now and see it for what it is - it's a videogame and sometimes things just don't work out logically. If you haven't played Dark Urge yet, just know that you'll have to get used to doing that as Dark Urge in act 3 anyway. There are a lot of out of character dialogues regarding Dark Urge from companions I'm afraid.
So she is still the character that wants to be with you for the rest of her life, starting a family on a farm with an infinite amount of pets, with or without her parents around. Even when she randomly flirts with Halsin, or.. isn't always as thoughtful about some Dark Urge reveals.
And lets just hope they'll fix things. And if not, at least we'll hopefully get an extended epilogue that cements our argument that she's devoted to Tav, as that's how she has obviously been written otherwise.
At best she has an attraction towards Karlach but that's about it.
I thought it was more of a practical thing. Like she was just commenting on how big of an asset Karlach would be for the team but it's open to interpretation
At best she has an attraction towards Karlach but that's about it.
I thought it was more of a practical thing. Like she was just commenting on how big of an asset Karlach would be for the team but it's open to interpretation
Honestly it'll probably be a while until this gets fixed, if it even does. The game has so many bugs, plus Karlach and Minthara seem to be ahead of us in priority I guess. Super disappointing
Would be nice if they at least acknowledged this problem with SH and Halsin.
It's definitely a bit of both, based on her dialogue when Karlach enters the camp (not the random line upon meeting her, which can be from any other companion). She basically just says Karlach's going to take a lot of rations because those muscles don't grow from nothing and that at least she'll be useful in a fight. So she's both in awe by her physique but also seems to imply she thinks Karlach's not useful beyond beating things up.
Granted, because she's obviously playersexual, she calls you attractive as well in act 2 even when you're a halfling.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
Honestly it'll probably be a while until this gets fixed, if it even does. The game has so many bugs, plus Karlach and Minthara seem to be ahead of us in priority I guess. Super disappointing
Yes and no. It's obviously not a lot of work (remove some triggers and the main issue is gone), and Halsin should be high priority as well with all the feedback going around about him. That is, assuming they care about feedback at all of course.
Plus they're supposedly working on epilogues. An extended epilogue of her main romance story is perfectly fine as well. The more consistent canon content we get, the easier it is to headcanon out the inconsistencies.
It's definitely a bit of both, based on her dialogue when Karlach enters the camp (not the random line upon meeting her, which can be from any other companion). She basically just says Karlach's going to take a lot of rations because those muscles don't grow from nothing and that at least she'll be useful in a fight. So she's both in awe by her physique but also seems to imply she thinks Karlach's not useful beyond beating things up.
Granted, because she's obviously playersexual, she calls you attractive as well in act 2 even when you're a halfling.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
Honestly it'll probably be a while until this gets fixed, if it even does. The game has so many bugs, plus Karlach and Minthara seem to be ahead of us in priority I guess. Super disappointing
Yes and no. It's obviously not a lot of work, and Halsin should be high priority as well with all the feedback going around about him. That is, assuming they care about feedback at all of course.
Plus they're supposedly working on epilogues. An extended epilogue of her main romance story is perfectly fine as well. The more consistent canon content we get, the easier it is to headcanon out the inconsistencies.
Nah the one where SH compliments Karlach and says something about carrying her over her shoulders or something... brb finding quote...
"I like her. She looks like she could throw me over her shoulder and carry me to safety, should the need arise."
.... uhh where does that SH thinks Karlach's unintelligent? From what conclusion did you arrive at that?
I actually misremembered the quote, it's a bit farfetched to assume that's what she meant. For context, it's: Shadowheart: We may need to increase our camp provisions now that we have Karlach along for the journey - those muscles don't run on fresh air, I'll wager. Still, she'll be useful in a fight.
More of a justification of bringing her along than anything else.
I personally sent 1 feedback post on discord and to 1 larian from client. But I do think some ppl a little bit unhinged in their efforts to send feedback.
.... uhh where does that SH thinks Karlach's unintelligent? From what conclusion did you arrive at that?
I actually misremembered the quote, it's a bit farfetched to assume that's what she meant. For context, it's: Shadowheart: We may need to increase our camp provisions now that we have Karlach along for the journey - those muscles don't run on fresh air, I'll wager. Still, she'll be useful in a fight.
More of a justification of bringing her along than anything else.
Still doesn't imply anything to do with her being Unintelligent. Just that another person has been added... nothing to do with intelligence... could be something else I'm not seeing but not that.
I mean I think she was well intentioned and came from a place of concern, so it could have been dealt with differently.
I understand, but I don't really know what happened. Just an observation that feedback spam on discord runs rampant, it doesn't look very good I think.
Still doesn't imply anything to do with her being Unintelligent. Just that another person has been added... nothing to do with intelligence... could be something else I'm not seeing but not that.
I agree. I misremembered it, she's not implying that. I thought the wording was a bit more toward the "well at least she can beat things up for us" direction.
Should probably keep discussion to the topic at hand so they don't close the thread for real.
Ok, I'll start. I love Shart, I want to be able to hug her
after house of grief
and tell her all the good things, also I want expanded ending(farm ending). Also I want to not think about Halsin's interactions and hope Larian team fixes that.
Hugs are honestly something all companions need, and Dark Urge Tav too. We all go through so much in the game, some hugs here and there would make coping a lot easier!
But if we're going to list things that need adding/changing, for SH specifically: - Elephant in the thread. Halsin's interactions need going, at least the unavoidable ones (flirting, twins) if you bring him along in your party without romancing him. The rest isn't as high priority since, while inconsistent with her overall writing, it's all optional. - More romance content in act 3 and something in act 2 to fill the gap and make it (even more) obvious that she's doubting Shar thanks to Tav. - Better epilogue (duh!). - A lot of triggers need fixing. Some dialogue isn't playing (allegedly there's meant to be more !'s pop up in the Lower City that can change the outcome of a very important decision she makes later on) and I doubt she's meant to say nothing after her final story cutscene. Meanwhile some situations play the wrong dialogue (low approval, non-romance stuff), especially related to Dark Urge. - The matter of one of her 'updating' dialogue options not being available more than once during the game, while the permanent dialogue option that replaces it never updates. So the only way to see the different versions is by saving & loading after talking to her. - Hugs hugs hugs hugs hugs. After Nightsong and House of Grief, at minimum!
Issues with Halsin romance is most likely due to a bug in coding logic anyway, there's no check in Halsin's coding after skinnydipping scene which suggests that some of his comments and behavior is just a result from a bug
Issues with Halsin romance is most likely due to a bug in coding logic anyway, there's no check in Halsin's coding after skinnydipping scene which suggests that some of his comments and behavior is just a result from a bug
That's good to hear. Gives me some hope that it might get patched out at some point so long as you don't romance him.
Issues with Halsin romance is most likely due to a bug in coding logic anyway, there's no check in Halsin's coding after skinnydipping scene which suggests that some of his comments and behavior is just a result from a bug
Maybe the banter is a bug but I still think doing the Drow twins scene with her that Halsin should not invite himself in it should be you who initiates it and if they want to keep the absolutely inappropriate nature of him inviting himself then at the very least she should not disapprove of you declining him and shouldn't tell you about her fantasies about him unless you accept. Or just don't say anything about fantasies at all that would be much preferable. And I doubt the Drow twins stuff is simply a bug.
Yeah and they should probably remove the fantasy thing she says entirely and replace it with the regular foursome dialogue, along with not making the orgy scene look like all Tav did was watch with the twins.
I got the game in EA, didn't want it to turn into something you can find on the Hub. Orgies being acceptable for 2 of the most traumatized members of the party, really?
Lol according to them yes. I'm pretty sure the orgy can actually be found on the Hub too lmao
I try to ignore that stuff though and think of the epic romance with SH, and the tasteful, romantic swim scene. That is way better than any and all of the weird porn stuff they have to offer.
In case Larian won't address the Halsin/Shadowheart banter after swimming scene I want to give you the way I look at it that may help put your mind at ease.
I looked up this banter on youtube (idk if I can post links here, so I'll just give the name of the video and timestamp: Party banter [Romances] | Baldur's Gate 3, timestamp 3:51)
Halsins tone there doesn't seem suggestive, he just talks about it like going to a pool with his friends. And Shadowheart doesn't seem super excited, she just seems not confident enough in her swimming skills and genuinely worried that she'll need all the help she can get in case she starts drowning.
And as for the brothel scene I think that given the context, everything there can be seen as just "dirty talk" and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Shadowheart not being upset about Mizora, how good are orgies for her mental health and if it makes sense for her character is a separate discussion, but it shouldn't ruin your experience with her romance.
Yeah I know that banter can be interpreted that way, but it still looks pretty sus if I'm gonna be honest. As for the Mizora thing, I interpreted that as her being disappointed that Tav would do that to her. "If I wanted to bed something loyal and pure, I'd find a swan". The way she said it sounds a bit sad (to me, anyway).
As for the brothel, they could have just kept the default dialogue between Tav/Shadowheart/Twins the same even with Halsin in the party and he butts in so it doesn't look like she's been thirsting for Halsin the entire time she's been with Tav. And in the actual scene, it should have been either way more vague about what happened or the player gets to choose who gets more attention. It feels wrong to me, and I can't pretend that Shadowheart is a certain way in my Shadowheart exclusive playthrough because I can't forget any of what I found out. I know it's just a game and all, but I didn't play to feel this kind of thing.
I can't pretend that Shadowheart is a certain way in my Shadowheart exclusive playthrough because I can't forget any of what I found out.
Look at it this way. All that there is in the game only suggests that Shadowheart is not fully monogamous, she is open for some experimenting. That doesn't mean that she is against exclusive relationship, will be unhappy in exclusive relationship or even considers your relationship not exclusive by default. In drow twins discussion she says "If you are comfortable sharing, so am I". Halsin butting in and everything else happens only after player says "Yes" to that, which indicates being comfortable with at least some sharing.
Although disapproval if you refuse Halsin doesn't make sense and has to go. It also doesn't make sense and has to go for Astarion too while we are on it.
Halsins tone there doesn't seem suggestive, he just talks about it like going to a pool with his friends. And Shadowheart doesn't seem super excited, she just seems not confident enough in her swimming skills and genuinely worried that she'll need all the help she can get in case she starts drowning.
The banter is extremely suggestive. Especially if you keep in mind the fact that she heavily implies the rest knows what you two did in the dialogue after your scene together (the 'sand in my hair' stuff).
Originally Posted by Frog001
And as for the brothel scene I think that given the context, everything there can be seen as just "dirty talk" and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
She not only pushes you into accepting, but when you do and Halsin shows how incredibly creepy he truly is, she will then say she's been dreaming of banging Halsin (even if implied it'd be in a threesome with you included), multiple times, meaning she's been dreaming of it before even having had sex with you. And if you say no, she disapproves? I've said it before in this thread, but the way that plays out would be actual grounds for divorce/separation in real life. If anyone who doesn't know this interaction exists stumbles upon that (which happens when you just ask questions to the drows), I wouldn't blame them if they just drop the game right there and then. Which has happened. People have deleted their saves over this.
And that's ignoring the fact that it's completely out of character. If it was at any point before that implied that she wasn't planning on staying faithful or wanted an open relationship, that's different. But it's not. It's not implied before, it's not implied after. You're lead to believe the complete opposite and the opposite remains true after the fact as well because it has no story consequences, it's just mindless - for the lack of a better word - porn dialogue. It'd belongs in some random fanfic, not in the actual game.
Originally Posted by Frog001
Shadowheart not being upset about Mizora
Judging by how she reacts to similar scenarios (such as you breaking up with her), she should be angry and quite unapproachable. Other companions (at least some, can't speak for all) will let you explain yourself or ask you to double down on wanting to break up. Shadowheart just gets pissed and doesn't even let you explain yourself. But at least the Mizora scene is avoidable - you did just cheat on her, so either you are roleplaying a prick or you're just doing it to see her reply before F8.
It does house the statements regarding how she was raised as well, which are in complete contradiction with her entire Sharran story arc. But that's a problem for another time.
Look at it this way. All that there is in the game only suggests that Shadowheart is not fully monogamous, she is open for some experimenting.
Nothing at all implies she isn't fully monogamous. She remains fully monogamous after these interactions, and she was before these interactions. They have absolutely zero story impact. I'll quote the line she says if you suggest an open relationship with Wyll again: Shadowheart: In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity.
If that doesn't indicate monogamous, plus her actions (declining an open relationship with ANY of the other companions, even those she was actually flirting with) then I don't know what is. She wants you and she doesn't want you wasting energy on anyone else. That's monogamy talk. And that's just one of many examples, while nothing ever implies otherwise.
Originally Posted by Frog001
In drow twins discussion she says "If you are comfortable sharing, so am I". Halsin butting in and everything else happens only after player says "Yes" to that, which indicates being comfortable with at least some sharing.
You conveniently left out the incredibly suggestive "Now there's an idea..." she also says when the twins suggest it without you ever asking them for sex. I hope you realize that in a situation where your love interest pushes for a night of pleasure with prostitutes (no matter how out of character it is for her to do so), some people will feel pressured into accepting. The rest of the dialogue is unavoidable the second you do and as I said in the post above, is grounds for divorce/separation and people have quit the game over it.
Originally Posted by Frog001
Although disapproval if you refuse Halsin doesn't make sense and has to go. It also doesn't make sense and has to go for Astarion too while we are on it.
Yes. Both Astarion and Shadowheart have had part of their character ruined because of the late inclusion of Halsin's creepy romance. Thankfully it's all avoidable by not bringing Halsin. But not everyone knows that bringing Halsin will ruin their immersion.
Edit: But the disapproval isn't the only problem. It's what she says before that already.
She not only pushes you into accepting, but when you do and Halsin shows how incredibly creepy he truly is, she will then say she's been dreaming of banging Halsin (even if implied it'd be in a threesome with you included), multiple times, meaning she's been dreaming of it before even having had sex with you. And if you say no, she disapproves? I've said it before in this thread, but the way that plays out would be actual grounds for divorce/separation in real life. If anyone who doesn't know this interaction exists stumbles upon that (which happens when you just ask questions to the drows), I wouldn't blame them if they just drop the game right there and then. Which has happened. People have deleted their saves over this.
I agree that disapproval over Halsin exclusion in a brothel needs to be removed as well as that Halsin comes off creepy. But she isn't pushing you into accepting, just says that she is comfortable with it ONLY if you are ok with it too.
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
If it was at any point before that implied that she wasn't planning on staying faithful or wanted an open relationship
Yes, it wasn't implied because it isn't the case. In my reply to other poster I said that there is nothing in game indicating that she needs or even wants an open relationship, only that she isn't opposed to the idea ONLY if her partner is ok with it too. She considers your relationship exclusive by default and seems perfectly happy with it. She would never do anything to hurt her true love.
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
The banter is extremely suggestive.
I can see how it may seem that way upon reading it in a text log, but upon hearing it without in-game music and city noise I just don't see it that way. And it is pretty reasonable to think that not every time you go to the beach it has to be very intimate.
My second post refutes most of the above. I'll wait until you've replied to that one as otherwise I'd just be repeating myself (I wrote the first one before you replied to Ehhhh123 so I had to separate them).
Originally Posted by Frog001
I can see how it may seem that way upon reading it in a text log, but upon hearing it without in-game music and city noise I just don't see it that way. And it is pretty reasonable to think that not every time you go to the beach it has to be very intimate.
It happens the day after your intimate night together (sure, it can happen later if you don't bring Halsin until then, but it's coded to happen straight after). Other companions potentially talking about it was foreshadowed by her implying they'll know. It'd be naïve to assume it wasn't referring to the intimate night you had with her. Plus, the way you both talk about wanting more of those nights and how she'll be an eager student if you are a thorough teacher, it's heavily implied that the rest will be quite intimate too.
You conveniently left out the incredibly suggestive "Now there's an idea..." she also says when the twins suggest it without you ever asking them for sex. I hope you realize that in a situation where your love interest pushes for a night of pleasure with prostitutes (no matter how out of character it is for her to do so), some people will feel pressured into accepting. The rest of the dialogue is unavoidable the second you do and as I said in the post above, is grounds for divorce/separation and people have quit the game over it.
Sure, she says "Now there's an idea..." upon hearing drows proposal. All that means is that she says her opinion on the matter before you say yours. It's a discussion. She isn't pushing and if you refuse she won't disapprove (like I said disapproval over Halsin specifically was a bad call from the devs).
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
But the disapproval isn't the only problem. It's what she says before that already.
Forgot about that. But then again at this point player indicates some level of comfort with sharing. And while yes, it is an uncomfortable thought that your romantic partner sometimes may think of someone else, there is no indication that Shadowheart is going to act on it. If player doesn't say they are comfortable sharing, she will keep her thoughts to herself to not compromise what you two have.
I'm not saying that her change of stance on open reltaionships makes sense or I am opposed to Larian making changes discussed here. I am saying that you shouldn't allow it ruin your experience.
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
With the exception of the suggestive banter. It happens the day after your intimate night together (sure, it can happen later if you don't bring Halsin until then, but it's coded to happen straight after).
Sure, but this game already treats time passing and distance travelled very unrealistically. It certainly wouldn't be bad if it was coded to be 3 long rests after or something like that (or removed, again I'm not consdering this banter essential to the game)
Here we go again... 1.) As was stated earlier - banter might be bugged and might get get fixed soon. As I said many times before - it makes sense to hear that banter if you decide to run both romances at once. Also I it is very suggestive, considering it occurs instantly after you've spent night together and obviously it wasn't only "swimming action".
2.) Drow convo. Shadowheart says her line always after you initate and ask if your lover is up for it("If YOU are comfortable sharing, so am I..."), unless you are first time there and you decided to "play fool"(there is an option for her to say this first if you chose dumb responces, like: "What do you want from my lover", or something liek that, can't recall correctly.). Disapproval is the huge thing here aswell and should be fixed asap imo(because it only occurs if you are with Halsin, if you are as 4 and decide to not do it - you don't get any disapproval). Scene itself is rather questionable aswell, but it can be fixed easily for those who dislike "that" fetish without affecting those who do. There was a suggestion in discord to put additional dialogue option that won't require any voice acting. Basically add another dialogue choice after Halsin's line :
"To watch a woman flush with pleasure is one of nature's sweetest gifts... though perhaps you will prove even sweeter, Shadowheart".
Something like: 1. Go for Shadowheart 2. Go for Halsin 3. Remain and watch Obviously Shadowheart's lines about "dreams about Halsin" cannot be fixed without additional voice acting and rewriting, but they are, obviously, questionable and probably in need of fixes eventually. Also it might be better to just lock Halsin's self insert behind active romance with him.
3.) Mizora cheat. I think overall her reaction is fine. She is still jealous and expresses that at the start of the dialogue when she talks to Mizora first. Considering her insecurity in 3rd act, I think her response is fine("Swan..." and her last line does it for me). That being said, some disapproval would't hurt and would add some immersion I guess("Wyll disapproves...Wyll disapproves").
4.) Insecurity. Obviously she is insecure about relationship and it shows all the time throughout 3rd act. 1 time she gets confident during last battle, but that makes perfect sense, because you have to be confident there, there is no hesitation and doubt, you need as high spirit as you can. Insecurity and hesitation is 50% of loss. And it kinda makes sense in the epilogue scene for her back to her "normal" attitude. Also you can see how relieved she is when you tell her that you are with her. Also yes, at worst she "will be waiting and easy to find"(Don't do this to her though).
I'm not saying that her change of stance open relationships makes sense or I am opposed to Larian making changes discussed here. I am saying that you shouldn't allow it ruin your experience.
These are all great takes but each of us is build different. Even if I try to rationalize everything said in Sharress's Caress or banter both characters SH and Halsin are ruined for me. Both are manipulative egoistic beings, to say the least.
Yes, it wasn't implied because it isn't the case. In my reply to other poster I said that there is nothing in game indicating that she needs or even wants an open relationship, only that she isn't opposed to the idea ONLY if her partner is ok with it too. She considers your relationship exclusive by default and seems perfectly happy with it. She would never do anything to hurt her true love.
As you didn't touch on this subject again, I'll reply to this.
She has declined every other attempt from the player to start an open relationship with her. This has happened up to 5 times by the time Halsin shows up. Her dialogue when you suggest an open relationship with any of the other companions sets in stone that she wants a monogamous relationship with you.
This is her reply if you ask for it with Wyll: Shadowheart: In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity.
That's pure monogamy talk. It doesn't even imply that she doesn't want to share, she says she doesn't want to share. The fact that we even suggest an open relationship after that should make her wonder if we had amnesia, considering she's made it very clear she doesn't want it and yet we bring it up again. I think a -50 approval would be way more in character because of how inconsiderate the player is of her decision to keep the relationship closed. The Halsin situation is therefore completely out of character for her, and the game gives no explanation whatsoever as to why it's suddenly different now.
Originally Posted by Frog001
Sure, she says "Now there's an idea..." upon hearing drows proposal. All that means is that she says her opinion on the matter before you say yours. It's a discussion. She isn't pushing and if you refuse she won't disapprove (like I said disapproval over Halsin specifically was a bad call from the devs).
The suggestive tone in her voice shows serious interest. There are a lot of people who don't like saying no to their love interest (or anyone they care about for that matter) when they show interest in doing something, especially people more insecure. They don't want to disappoint the other. That's what happens here. In fact, the writers even know this, because you can do that exact thing to Gale. You can pressure him into accepting through a persuasion check, and while I don't know the exact words used there, I see this as Shadowheart rolling a persuasion check on the player. Some people will be more inclined to accept.
They had relationship experts for this kind of thing. I think those did an inadequate job in this scenario.
Originally Posted by Frog001
Forgot about that. But then again at this point player indicates some level of comfort with sharing. And while yes, it is an uncomfortable thought that your romantic partner sometimes may think of someone else, there is no indication that Shadowheart is going to act on it. If player doesn't say they are comfortable sharing, she will keep her thoughts to herself to not compromise what you two have.
There is a massive difference between being okay with (reluctantly, since she's the one who suggests it) sharing with prostitutes, and sharing with a travelling companion - a "friend". And her comment on dreaming of being with him in a threesome before she's even had sex with you alone is absolutely not okay in any way, shape or form.
Even if she thinks that way about him, supposedly wanting a threesome (it's out of character, lets not forget that), that's not something she's supposed to voice. That kind of thing is grounds for divorce/separation without a serious chat to explain 1. why 2. boundaries. But we don't get to talk to her about it, at all. If my spouse in real life were to suddenly tell me she's dreamt of a threesome with a friend of mine after that friend of mine suggests having one (or in this case, fivesome), I'm genuinely not sure how I would react but it wouldn't end positively. Add her (and him) showing disapproval and.. well, I don't think I'll ever want to see either again.
Originally Posted by Frog001
I'm not saying that her change of stance open reltaionships makes sense or I am opposed to Larian making changes discussed here. I am saying that you shouldn't allow it ruin your experience.
Don't worry. it hasn't for me, but I understand that it has for others. I just dislike inconsistent writing in general, even more so when it touches important subjects like this.
Originally Posted by Frog001
Sure, but this game already treats time passing and distance travelled very unrealistically. It certainly wouldn't be bad if it was coded to be 3 long rests after or something like that (or removed, again I'm not consdering this banter essential to the game)
I'm still against him suggesting it and her reply to it. Neither make sense, as he said he'd respect your decision and she has shown no interest in an open relationship with anyone else thus shouldn't be interested in one with Halsin without some serious explanation as to why she would be.
There are a lot of people who don't like saying no to their love interest (or anyone they care about for that matter) when they show interest in doing something, especially people more insecure.
This can be applied to her Mizora reaction btw, especially when we know that she is, in fact, insecure.
This can be applied to her Mizora reaction btw, especially when we know that she is, in fact, insecure.
I agree, that would technically be a valid way for her to respond. But past the first line, nothing in the dialogue and the tone of her voice show any of that, and Jennifer is an excellent voice actress so I am not going to assume she just messed up - it's clear to me that it wasn't written that way. The only thing she seemed disappointed about is that you didn't ask first. There's plenty of times you can hear genuine disappointment and sadness in her voice throughout the game to know that this isn't it. And I'm still vehemently against the idea that she supposedly expected you to cheat on her. She's not insecure enough to defy a goddess (her only support) for someone and devote herself fully to someone she thinks will cheat.
Though, judging by her reaction if you break up with her, I don't think she'd canonically respond that way anyway.
And like I said, the dialogue regarding how she was raised directly contradicts her entire Sharran story arc and how she acts throughout the game.
Edit: Also, for someone supposedly that insecure, she seems awfully keen on suggesting a session with a bunch of prostitutes. It's just inconsistencies within inconsistencies. All three of these optional scenarios are horribly written.
Guys, what are the chances of this debacle at least being acknowledged by Larian? Some of the feedback threads on Discord regarding it can't be reacted to for some reason, and I have no idea how they would even sort through them in the first place. As for Reddit, the posts that criticise this don't seem that popular and get downvoted/ignored. I've only ever seen one get around 7k upvotes. I guess that this and the Halsin thread are one of the more popular threads on the forum, so we have that going for us.
This can be applied to her Mizora reaction btw, especially when we know that she is, in fact, insecure.
I agree, that would technically be a valid way for her to respond. But past the first line, nothing in the dialogue and the tone of her voice show any of that, and Jennifer is an excellent voice actress so I am not going to assume she just messed up - it's clear to me that it wasn't written that way. The only thing she seemed disappointed about is that you didn't ask first. There's plenty of times you can hear genuine disappointment and sadness in her voice throughout the game to know that this isn't it. And I'm still vehemently against the idea that she supposedly expected you to cheat on her. She's not insecure enough to defy a goddess (her only support) for someone and devote herself fully to someone she thinks will cheat.
Though, judging by her reaction if you break up with her, I don't think she'd canonically respond that way anyway.
And like I said, the dialogue regarding how she was raised directly contradicts her entire Sharran story arc and how she acts throughout the game.
Edit: Also, for someone supposedly that insecure, she seems awfully keen on suggesting a session with a bunch of prostitutes. It's just inconsistencies within inconsistencies. All three of these optional scenarios are horribly written.
Her break up line is ok, you are not supposed to press it out of random anyways. I think they could've tweaked it to play different lines based on approval and what you did to your LI. She seems like she blames Mizora for this obviously(some people tend to react this way) and she doesn't say anything about her expecting to cheat though. She just expects you not to praise her because of what she thinks of herself, what a bad person(and lost person, she feels like she is nothing without her godess) she is. That's also main source of her insecurity. First line to Mizora, swan line, last 2 lines suggest that she is not ok. I read it this way. Thus being said, some disapproval would seal a deal(Seriously I watched yt reactions to Mizora cheat and only who disapproves is Wyll).
Originally Posted by Ehhhh123
Guys, what are the chances of this debacle at least being acknowledged by Larian? Some of the feedback threads on Discord regarding it can't be reacted to for some reason, and I have no idea how they would even sort through them in the first place. As for Reddit, the posts that criticise this don't seem that popular and get downvoted/ignored. I've only ever seen one get around 7k upvotes. I guess that this and the Halsin thread are one of the more popular threads on the forum, so we have that going for us.
Guys, what are the chances of this debacle at least being acknowledged by Larian? Some of the feedback threads on Discord regarding it can't be reacted to for some reason, and I have no idea how they would even sort through them in the first place. As for Reddit, the posts that criticise this don't seem that popular and get downvoted/ignored. I've only ever seen one get around 7k upvotes. I guess that this and the Halsin thread are one of the more popular threads on the forum, so we have that going for us.
Our problem is a rather niche problem, it makes sense that it doesn't get that much attention. Halsin is a much bigger problem. If the Halsin problem gets fixed, our problem gets (partially) fixed with it. I don't know how Larian reacts to feedback so I have no idea how likely it is, though. Evidently they make an effort to have it at least seem like they care otherwise they wouldn't give us so many tools to provide it.
Originally Posted by Netav
Her break up line is ok, you are not supposed to press it out of random anyways. I think they could've tweaked it to play different lines based on approval and what you did to your LI. She seems like she blames Mizora for this obviously(some people tend to react this way) and she doesn't say anything about her expecting to cheat though. She just expects you not to praise her because of what she thinks of herself, what a bad person(and lost person, she feels like she is nothing without her godess) she is. That's also main source of her insecurity. First line to Mizora, swan line, last 2 lines suggest that she is not ok. I read it this way. Thus being said, some disapproval would seal a deal(Seriously I watched yt reactions to Mizora cheat and only who disapproves is Wyll).
The breakup line shows that she's not intent on giving you the chance to reply if you do something she's really disappointed about. Other companions let you either explain yourself or ask you if that's truly what you want (at least for Karlach and Wyll).
She doesn't blame Mizora for it, that's something Karlach does. Karlach specifically says that she understands how devils are with their tricks. Karlach is also truly disappointed in you and you have to be very careful with dialogue choices to not have her break up with you. That's what I at the very least expected from Shadowheart as well. But all she does is say she understands and even if you pick the most brutal dialogue options indicating that you're more or less planning on doing it again, she just reacts sarcastically. There's no disappointment, no sadness, no "my world just broke apart, is this what I abandoned Shar for?" level of breakdown you'd expect if she was truly as insecure as you think she is and you double down on the decision to cheat on her.
The "swan" stuff is where she essentially says she expected you to cheat on her, because if she didn't want to get cheated on she'd have gotten together with a swan. It's ridiculous.
And yes, at the very least there should be a massive approval drop. But that's the case for all companions. Approval just feels more or less abandoned as a system in act 3.
She doesn't blame Mizora for it, that's something Karlach does. Karlach specifically says that she understands how devils are with their tricks. Karlach is also truly disappointed in you and you have to be very careful with dialogue choices to not have her break up with you. That's what I at the very least expected from Shadowheart as well. But all she does is say she understands and even if you pick the most brutal dialogue options indicating that you're more or less planning on doing it again, she just reacts sarcastically.
The "swan" stuff is where she essentially says she expected you to cheat on her, because if she didn't want to get cheated on she'd have gotten together with a swan. It's ridiculous.
And yes, at the very least there should be a massive approval drop. But that's the case for all companions. Approval just feels more or less abandoned as a system in act 3.
It has nothing to do "expecting you to cheat", its more of "I understand that other ppl are attractive too, but we are in relationship, so please ask me about it next time". Yes it's shitty and I dont like it too, however they'll need to rework whole conversation if changes are to be made. I don't think Larian will do that. Thats why I talk about just adding disapproval, because it makes sense. P.S. I won't cheat on her anyway, so I'll stay as pure as swan.
I also believe that the best course of action to fix Shadowheart's character inconsistencies is to remove everything related to the orgy/poly relationship with Halsin. She has displayed a kinky side to her in earlier acts for sure (Abdhirak whipping you, mentioned being tied up with some rope), but that shouldn't mean that she's interested in orgies. Halsin should be the only one that's able to do the drow twin orgy with you, if anything.
It has nothing to do "expecting you to cheat", its more of "I understand that other ppl are attractive too, but we are in relationship, so please ask me about it next time". Yes it's shitty and I dont like it too, however they'll need to rework whole conversation if changes are to be made. I don't think Larian will do that. Thats why I talk about just adding disapproval, because it makes sense. P.S. I won't cheat on her anyway, so I'll stay as pure as swan.
Saying "If I wanted something pure, I'd have bedded a swan." is synonym for saying "I did not expect you to be pure."
That means that at the very least, it didn't surprise her. I think that's ridiculous. She wouldn't abandon Shar for you if she had that little faith in you.
It's unlikely that they'll change this, yes, even if the biggest skeleton in the closet during that dialogue is still the massive contradiction about how she was raised. But I think the vast majority of people don't even notice that because this entire dialogue is a F5 -> F8 situation and expecting perfection from the writing is a little extreme.
Originally Posted by Ehhhh123
I also believe that the best course of action to fix Shadowheart's character inconsistencies is to remove everything related to the orgy/poly relationship with Halsin. She has displayed a kinky side to her in earlier acts for sure (Abdhirak whipping you, mentioned being tied up with some rope), but that shouldn't mean that she's interested in orgies. Halsin should be the only one that's able to do the drow twin orgy with you, if anything.
That kinky side is very likely gone by the time she realizes what she had actually been doing when you reach the House of Grief. Remember that all she had was good memories of the atrocities she inflicted upon others (including her parents) there due to Sharran Mind Wipe MagicTM making her forget the rest. The tied up stuff is just her lowkey flirting with you. She asked what you'd do if she started to turn, you can say you'd tie her up and look for a cure, she says she'd kill you on the spot if you started to turn and that you shouldn't dream of tying her up.
Halsin is a much bigger problem. If the Halsin problem gets fixed, our problem gets (partially) fixed with it. I don't know how Larian reacts to feedback so I have no idea how likely it is, though. Evidently they make an effort to have it at least seem like they care otherwise they wouldn't give us so many tools to provide it.
Halsin fan here, been lurking the last few pages of this thread. Im biased of course but I think this is the best route for Larian to take. Ultimately Halsin is the problem.
While Im pessimistic about a real fix I think it would behoove Larian to do something. I myself went through their official feedback thing and pointed them in the direction of the Halsin thread, ultimately because all of his issues are too complex to put in their system, and we have also discussed the SH issue there as well.
The game is only a couple months out of release so its really just going to be a wait and see situation for at least a few months but probably longer just to see if theyd even consider it.
Even if they do fix Halsin, they're not going to remove their precious porn content with the orgy. Sex sells - the uptick in sales, after the bear scene was revealed, is proof of that. A lot of ppl are perfectly fine with porn without plot. They don't care if it makes sense, or they'll do mental gymnastics to make it fit for them. Anything for a bit of erotic content. Larian also doesn't care if it makes sense if it improves sales.
You would think a writer would care about maintaining their characters integrity, but it's also possible someone higher up forced this decision. Either way, it's not going anywhere. So we either have to ignore it and focus on the good content we have or choose not to play the game anymore. It's unfortunate that Larian did this to it's characters and the genuine fans of them. For that reason, this is the first and last Larian game I'll ever buy or play.
Even if they do fix Halsin, they're not going to remove their precious porn content with the orgy. Sex sells - the uptick in sales, after the bear scene was revealed, is proof of that. A lot of ppl are perfectly fine with porn without plot. They don't care if it makes sense, or they'll do mental gymnastics to make it fit for them. Anything for a bit of erotic content. Larian also doesn't care if it makes sense if it improves sales.
You would think a writer would care about maintaining their characters integrity, but it's also possible someone higher up forced this decision. Either way, it's not going anywhere. So we either have to ignore it and focus on the good content we have or choose not to play the game anymore. It's unfortunate that Larian did this to it's characters and the genuine fans of them. For that reason, this is the first and last Larian game I'll ever buy or play.
Don't be so harsh, I have faith in them. You have to remember that only 50% players left act 1. Also this whole Halsin/SH fetish thing or w/e is not easy to come across(Halsin is probably less taken in group than obvious Jaherira), many probably genuinely enjoy the game and SH romance.
So far I don't think a lot of people know about this whole thing. Hell, I didn't at all until a few days ago. Maybe once the post nut clarity starts and the rose tinted glasses come off more people would talk about this.
I have no faith in them. The fact that they added this at all proves that I shouldn't. There's no fixing certain aspects of the game, they purposely put in, for nothing but meaningless erotic entertainment. They should never have lowered SH's character to that, it's demeaning. I'm going to try and focus on her romance, but I can't forget what they've done. I paid $90 for this bullshit and I won't forgive them for this disgusting lack of care.
Maybe more ppl will agree once they know about it, but I doubt it will change anything about the porn stuff.
Larian just doesn't care about Shadowheart as a character, otherwise they would have never done this to her, it contradicts everything about her. So screw Larian, they don't deserve the praise they're getting.
Even if they do fix Halsin, they're not going to remove their precious porn content with the orgy. Sex sells - the uptick in sales, after the bear scene was revealed, is proof of that. A lot of ppl are perfectly fine with porn without plot. They don't care if it makes sense, or they'll do mental gymnastics to make it fit for them. Anything for a bit of erotic content. Larian also doesn't care if it makes sense if it improves sales.
You would think a writer would care about maintaining their characters integrity, but it's also possible someone higher up forced this decision. Either way, it's not going anywhere. So we either have to ignore it and focus on the good content we have or choose not to play the game anymore. It's unfortunate that Larian did this to it's characters and the genuine fans of them. For that reason, this is the first and last Larian game I'll ever buy or play.
I agree with you. This is definitely the very last game from them I bought or played. I bought this game 2.5 years ago while it was in EA. The only thing I asked was better inventory management and it was not only me. I guess this is a lesson for pre-ordening/early access.
I have no faith in them. The fact that they added this at all proves that I shouldn't. There's no fixing certain aspects of the game, they purposely put in, for nothing but meaningless erotic entertainment. They should never have lowered SH's character to that, it's demeaning. I'm going to try and focus on her romance, but I can't forget what they've done. I paid $90 for this bullshit and I won't forgive them for this disgusting lack of care.
Maybe more ppl will agree once they know about it, but I doubt it will change anything about the porn stuff.
Larian just doesn't care about Shadowheart as a character, otherwise they would have never done this to her, it contradicts everything about her. So screw Larian, they don't deserve the praise they're getting.
They can fix it, they can remake orgy to make sense and other interactions.
So far I don't think a lot of people know about this whole thing. Hell, I didn't at all until a few days ago. Maybe once the post nut clarity starts and the rose tinted glasses come off more people would talk about this.
This is how I feel about Halsin's character. Hes really popular right now but the game is still so new, I wonder what will happen as more and more players who romanced him solo get his ending.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
I have no faith in them. The fact that they added this at all proves that I shouldn't. There's no fixing certain aspects of the game, they purposely put in, for nothing but meaningless erotic entertainment. They should never have lowered SH's character to that, it's demeaning. I'm going to try and focus on her romance, but I can't forget what they've done. I paid $90 for this bullshit and I won't forgive them for this disgusting lack of care.
Maybe more ppl will agree once they know about it, but I doubt it will change anything about the porn stuff.
Larian just doesn't care about Shadowheart as a character, otherwise they would have never done this to her, it contradicts everything about her. So screw Larian, they don't deserve the praise they're getting.
Again, this is how I feel about what they did to Halsin. Its gross and sad and I dont like it, and as more people make their way through the game they will hopefully start seeing what we all see.
Im gonna go ahead and leave it at that since this thread is for SH. But it seems we feel very similarly about these charactera doing seemingly out of character things and the game getting a little too ridiculous with the sex for these characters.
I have no faith in them. The fact that they added this at all proves that I shouldn't. There's no fixing certain aspects of the game, they purposely put in, for nothing but meaningless erotic entertainment. They should never have lowered SH's character to that, it's demeaning. I'm going to try and focus on her romance, but I can't forget what they've done. I paid $90 for this bullshit and I won't forgive them for this disgusting lack of care.
Maybe more ppl will agree once they know about it, but I doubt it will change anything about the porn stuff.
Larian just doesn't care about Shadowheart as a character, otherwise they would have never done this to her, it contradicts everything about her. So screw Larian, they don't deserve the praise they're getting.
They can fix it, they can remake orgy to make sense and other interactions.
That wouldn't be "fixing" it. That would be retconning her character entirely to force it to fit. So instead of changing her specifically for the porn content, you would rather see them change her character entirely just so that porn stuff makes sense? She wouldn't be the Shadowheart we know anymore if they did that. That would completely ruin her.
So far I don't think a lot of people know about this whole thing. Hell, I didn't at all until a few days ago. Maybe once the post nut clarity starts and the rose tinted glasses come off more people would talk about this.
This is how I feel about Halsin's character. Hes really popular right now but the game is still so new, I wonder what will happen as more and more players who romanced him solo get his ending.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
I have no faith in them. The fact that they added this at all proves that I shouldn't. There's no fixing certain aspects of the game, they purposely put in, for nothing but meaningless erotic entertainment. They should never have lowered SH's character to that, it's demeaning. I'm going to try and focus on her romance, but I can't forget what they've done. I paid $90 for this bullshit and I won't forgive them for this disgusting lack of care.
Maybe more ppl will agree once they know about it, but I doubt it will change anything about the porn stuff.
Larian just doesn't care about Shadowheart as a character, otherwise they would have never done this to her, it contradicts everything about her. So screw Larian, they don't deserve the praise they're getting.
Again, this is how I feel about what they did to Halsin. Its gross and sad and I dont like it, and as more people make their way through the game they will hopefully start seeing what we all see.
Im gonna go ahead and leave it at that since this thread is for SH. But it seems we feel very similarly about these charactera doing seemingly out of character things and the game getting a little too ridiculous with the sex for these characters.
We should form an alliance
Yeah I believe most of us are on each other's sides here. I would love for you guys to get what you want and deserve, and I know a lot of Halsin fans want the same for us.
The more I think about, the more I'm convinced that this whole drow twins thing is just a bad joke from the devs.
Because, really, not only Halsin and Shadowheart act out character there. Take Minthara and Lae'zel for example. Sure, they won't join on a foursome, but players can still hire one of the drow for themselves and the only consequence is a few points of disapproval. They would break up over Mizora, but not over this? Why? It's not like Mizora thing is somehow more serious than the drow.
So much character consistency compromised just for horny players to look at black screen for a minute. Masterclass of trolling.
The more I think about, the more I'm convinced that this whole drow twins thing is just a bad joke from the devs.
Because, really, not only Halsin and Shadowheart act out character there. Take Minthara and Lae'zel for example. Sure, they won't join on a foursome, but players can still hire one of the drow for themselves and the only consequence is a few points of disapproval. They would break up over Mizora, but not over this? Why? It's not like Mizora thing is somehow more serious than the drow.
So much character consistency compromised just for horny players to look at black screen for a minute. Masterclass of trolling.
Lmao wait I would've genuinely expected Minthara to break up over that. She's a drow herself, she should be furious for you even considering going with a lesser drow.
I have no faith in them. The fact that they added this at all proves that I shouldn't. There's no fixing certain aspects of the game, they purposely put in, for nothing but meaningless erotic entertainment. They should never have lowered SH's character to that, it's demeaning. I'm going to try and focus on her romance, but I can't forget what they've done. I paid $90 for this bullshit and I won't forgive them for this disgusting lack of care.
Maybe more ppl will agree once they know about it, but I doubt it will change anything about the porn stuff.
Larian just doesn't care about Shadowheart as a character, otherwise they would have never done this to her, it contradicts everything about her. So screw Larian, they don't deserve the praise they're getting.
They can fix it, they can remake orgy to make sense and other interactions.
That wouldn't be "fixing" it. That would be retconning her character entirely to force it to fit. So instead of changing her specifically for the porn content, you would rather see them change her character entirely just so that porn stuff makes sense? She wouldn't be the Shadowheart we know anymore if they did that. That would completely ruin her.
THIS THIS THIS
As a Halsin fan I dont want to try to work with the bad stuff they gave us. I want them to take it back and give me good stuff instead.
The more I think about, the more I'm convinced that this whole drow twins thing is just a bad joke from the devs.
Because, really, not only Halsin and Shadowheart act out character there. Take Minthara and Lae'zel for example. Sure, they won't join on a foursome, but players can still hire one of the drow for themselves and the only consequence is a few points of disapproval. They would break up over Mizora, but not over this? Why? It's not like Mizora thing is somehow more serious than the drow.
So much character consistency compromised just for horny players to look at black screen for a minute. Masterclass of trolling.
Why did they even do that with Mizora anyway. It came out of no where when she propositioned me.
Truth be told I've only read 4 or 5 posts. I kept waiting for this thread to die but it seems to resurrect itself more often than Manshoon.
1. It's good that Larian listened to the fans. People wanted Halsin, they wanted Halsin to be romanceable and they got it. If just want Halsin to be a camp follower don't talk to him.
2. There are an infinite number of ways to approach polyamory. I have my own approach others have theirs. Poly is not a "fetish" approach to relationships. Some poly people are kinksters, some are not.
3. If you are dissatisfied with Halsin either ignore him or ask for more companions. I don't want to see him rewritten.
To me it's as simple as this: every character should be severely disappointed by any type of cheating. They've established this for all of them with the exception of Halsin and Halsin should be rewritten to have his romance start after he frees Thaniel and you convinced Oliver.
Mizora, drows, Emperor, Haarlep all should lead to a -50 approval at best, breakup at worst. You get a pleasurable scene (or some text in the case of drows), your love interest is pissed, what's not to be expected, they've all written to be mono by act 2 and by act 3 are very much yours and you theirs. Personal story choices determine the outcome of the romance otherwise, not these optional scenes, they should just anger them or cause them to break up with you.
I still don't really understand how all of this got a pass when the writing otherwise has been done so wonderfully.
Truth be told I've only read 4 or 5 posts. I kept waiting for this thread to die but it seems to resurrect itself more often than Manshoon.
1. It's good that Larian listened to the fans. People wanted Halsin, they wanted Halsin to be romanceable and they got it. If just want Halsin to be a camp follower don't talk to him.
2. There are an infinite number of ways to approach polyamory. I have my own approach others have theirs. Poly is not a "fetish" approach to relationships. Some poly people are kinksters, some are not.
3. If you are dissatisfied with Halsin either ignore him or ask for more companions. I don't want to see him rewritten.
If you don't mind inconsistent writing that's fine, but others do. The knowledge that all of that is there is enough to ruin immersion and it's even worse for people who don't want Halsin to be a camp follower, but want to actually bring him along.
Truth be told I've only read 4 or 5 posts. I kept waiting for this thread to die but it seems to resurrect itself more often than Manshoon.
1. It's good that Larian listened to the fans. People wanted Halsin, they wanted Halsin to be romanceable and they got it. If just want Halsin to be a camp follower don't talk to him.
2. There are an infinite number of ways to approach polyamory. I have my own approach others have theirs. Poly is not a "fetish" approach to relationships. Some poly people are kinksters, some are not.
3. If you are dissatisfied with Halsin either ignore him or ask for more companions. I don't want to see him rewritten.
I mean this topic is more of a SH's inconsistency regarding Halsin, so. The main issue ppl have in this thread is Halsin/SH banter post skinny dip scene that would make sense when you romance both. Also weird Drow scene, which again would make sense if you romance both, but not solo SH.
Truth be told I've only read 4 or 5 posts. I kept waiting for this thread to die but it seems to resurrect itself more often than Manshoon.
1. It's good that Larian listened to the fans. People wanted Halsin, they wanted Halsin to be romanceable and they got it. If just want Halsin to be a camp follower don't talk to him.
2. There are an infinite number of ways to approach polyamory. I have my own approach others have theirs. Poly is not a "fetish" approach to relationships. Some poly people are kinksters, some are not.
3. If you are dissatisfied with Halsin either ignore him or ask for more companions. I don't want to see him rewritten.
The problem is:
1. They didn't get someone romanceable, they got a fuck buddy instead.
2. Polyamory isn't explored much in media, so if all they show is ppl who are polyamorous as kinksters and nothing more, that's all ppl will see them as.
3. We literally can't tell Halsin to fuck off at the end of act 2. And ignoring problems doesn't solve them. I can never have Halsin in my party because he's too busy trying to sleep with my partner, which means I'll never get to know him further than that, because his horniness overshadows the rest of his character. I would have liked to be friends with Halsin, but most ppl won't tolerate someone trying to fuck their girlfriend. So that means his character is useless or outright antagonistic, for a lot of ppl. Why did they even bother spending money on creating him then?
Forgive but this must have been said already. How is she inconsistent? She's happy to either be poly or mono.
You can hint at a poly relationship at the wine sharing moment. From memory
Tav: "not wanting to share with others?" Shadowheart: "Not right away"
Drow twins:
"I don't want our first time to be with others"
And the refusals make sense. "Wyll is a from a very traditional Baldurian family, I doubt they would be okay being introduced to their lover's lover"
"Something tells me that Lae'zel will not be willing to share"
She is willing to be a poly relationship with another poly person but the only other poly person Halsin so . . .
Don't talk to Halsin, don't hire the twins and it's not an issue
So you read the line where she justifies it to herself, then ignore the followup line where she speaks the truth? She doesn't want to be your spare lover. That's the reason. She wants you all to herself. She's very happy if you tell her you'll break up with Wyll. Same idea with Lae'zel and all other companions. It's all her trying to be kind, because she wants you all for herself.
Nothing, and I repeat nothing, changes regarding Halsin.
Don't talk to Halsin, don't hire the twins and it's not an issue
The issue for people is that although they can avoid this on their playthrough, it is still a part of their characterisation. And in this case, if taken seriously, this characterisation shows that under certain circumstances Shadowheart would show great disrespect towards her romantic partner, her true love. In case of Halsin and twins for example, she would push for including Halsin and voice her fantasies about him, without making sure that her partner approves of it.
I guess I read it differently. The first being the truth and the second the balm for her heart.
It often causes conflict in a poly relationship when someone develops an interest in someone who is mono only and it's not unusual for someone to want to be the primary in a poly relationship. Yes, "spare lover" is a pretty dismissive way to refer someone who is a secondary in a relationship . . . Shadowheart has some rough edges.
I guess I read it differently. The first being the truth and the second the balm for her heart.
It often causes conflict in a poly relationship when someone develops an interest in someone who is mono only and it's not unusual for someone to want to be the primary in a poly relationship. Yes, "spare lover" is a pretty dismissive way to refer someone who is a secondary in a relationship . . . Shadowheart has some rough edges.
The whole poly thing should have been centered around Tav, not Halsin. The fact that its a Halsin thing is the entire problem, it screws up not only his character but other characters too. The companions should only be poly when Tav is poly.
Don't talk to Halsin, don't hire the twins and it's not an issue
The issue for people is that although they can avoid this on their playthrough, it is still a part of their characterisation. And in this case, if taken seriously, this characterisation shows that under certain circumstances Shadowheart would show great disrespect towards her romantic partner, her true love. In case of Halsin and twins for example, she would push for including Halsin and voice her fantasies about him, without making sure that her partner approves of it.
Do you have a youtube link to that moment? I'll respond when I've viewed the scene.
I guess I read it differently. The first being the truth and the second the balm for her heart.
It often causes conflict in a poly relationship when someone develops an interest in someone who is mono only and it's not unusual for someone to want to be the primary in a poly relationship. Yes, "spare lover" is a pretty dismissive way to refer someone who is a secondary in a relationship . . . Shadowheart has some rough edges.
And this is why it's all bad. Poly isn't simple. It requires serious consideration and a lot of dialogue to set up correctly. They did none of that. What they did is write every origin companion as mono, wrote dialogue to explain why they're mono, and that's where it ends.
That's why none of them are okay with having a poly relationship with each other. Or open relationship, for that matter. You don't get the choice to even ask for a compromise, it's mono or nothing. That, to me, in addition to the dialogue itself, is more than clear enough to prove that they're all mono.
Don't talk to Halsin, don't hire the twins and it's not an issue
The issue for people is that although they can avoid this on their playthrough, it is still a part of their characterisation. And in this case, if taken seriously, this characterisation shows that under certain circumstances Shadowheart would show great disrespect towards her romantic partner, her true love. In case of Halsin and twins for example, she would push for including Halsin and voice her fantasies about him, without making sure that her partner approves of it.
Do you have a youtube link to that moment? I'll respond when I've viewed the scene.
Starts from 3:51. All of this can happen even if player rejected Halsin outright.
Gosh. It seems a little silly but I don't think it's big change in her character.
Tav has to suggest hiring sex workers and then SH response is "well if we are going to involve others let's involve Halsin".
Again, she expressed openness to involving others at during the wine dialogue and if anything it seems consistent with a desire to be the primary in a poly relationship. She's happy to be with people who don't threaten her position at the top of the relationship hierarchy.
Quote
All of this can happen even if player rejected Halsin outright.
I mean this topic is more of a SH's inconsistency regarding Halsin, so.
I'm quoting you more as a jumping point, most of this isn't directed at you. While that's generally become true of the topic there are definitely a couple people that have been very frequently vocal about how they they don't accept Shadowheart being read as anything but monogamous (I saw one person repeat that "we determined she's just monogamous and the rest isn't canon" several times even in other threads). The interactivity IS there and should remain there though, and I see a lot more fetishizing of that interactivity from the people calling it pornographic who can simply choose not to make the choices that trigger that content than I do from the game itself (barring Halsin's totally inappropriate interjections and the general state of his content in Act 3 which most people seem to all agree is very bad). The closest the game gets to pornographic is the Minthara goblin camp scene and that has entire other types of gratuitous fantasy fulfillment and moral problems tied into it (which is referring to a lot more than the grove stuff you have to do to get the scene). A scene being very sexual, or a character opening up about their sexual interests is simply not the same thing as being fetishistic or pornographic. This is true of movies too, lots of sexual content can be depicted without it being pornographic.
Being poly and sex involving more than two people in general are only fantasy fulfillment or a fetish for people that fantasize about it or fetishize it. They're otherwise kinda just normal things that can and do happen in real relationships and it's actually truly a nice thing that a game like this somewhat allows people to express that instead of the greater industry constantly shying away from that aspect of human life. It absolutely could have been better developed but the dev cycle ended up being what it is, so that's unfortunate. I've said before I don't read any inconsistency with Shadowheart's character and more specifically I think triggering some of those lines later in the game because you genuinely want your Tav to make those choices can and should change the context of how you understood things she's said prior the same way you'd do in real life when you learn more about a person you become close with, but specifically for that Tav. After all if you don't make those choices you don't learn those things so your read of the characterization won't have a reason to change, and simply knowing the content exists also should not change your read of the character, especially if you're never going to make those choices anyway. Sure, Shadowheart can absolutely be monogamous. But she can also be open to poly pending your choices and how an individual reads the results. There's a more involved discussion about characters being a little too malleable based on player choice and "show don't tell" (the game does show if you pursue it far enough so I don't understand that particular thing as an argument against it) but most of the time this stuff just won't be perfect and we have to be able to deal with that.
But nah Halsin in Act 3 absolutely needs a revamp, I just don't talk about it in this thread beyond that basic acknowledgement cuz the greater conversation about that already has its own thread.
Again, she expressed openness to involving others at during the wine dialogue and if anything it seems consistent with a desire to be the primary in a poly relationship. She's happy to be with people who don't threaten her position at the top of the relationship hierarchy.
Sure, but players openness to involving others wasn't established. Like was pointed in previous posts, openness to sex workers doesn't mean openness to Halsin.
Tav has to suggest hiring sex workers and then SH response is "well if we are going to involve others let's involve Halsin".
It happens even when you just ask questions to them. The drows will ask you and she will jump in and show interest.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Again, she expressed openness to involving others at during the wine dialogue and if anything it seems consistent with a desire to be the primary in a poly relationship. She's happy to be with people who don't threaten her position at the top of the relationship hierarchy.
There is no expression of openness during the party. She does say "not tonight" to you asking to share. But there are two problems with making the assumption that this is foreshadowing to her being open to share. 1. She only drinks wine with you and has a very romantic kiss with you that has her completely infatuated with you afterward. There is no sex sharing implied. 2. You're not actively romancing her at that point. This dialogue is in act 1, and STARTS the romance. By the time you reach act 2, your relationship gets serious, and if she were ever accepting of any kind of open relationship before, she certainly isn't anymore based on up to 5 different dialogues regarding one with the other companions. She goes through a lot of character development that leads to that.
And the "she's not threatened anymore" is just 100% pulled out of thin air and is not even an argument. There's nothing that implies this. It is never mentioned. It's a pointless and baseless thing to assume.
And the "she's not threatened anymore" is just 100% pulled out of thin air and is not even an argument. There's nothing that implies this. It is never mentioned. It's a pointless and baseless thing to assume.
I mean the line IS there and while you don't read it that way the line you just talked about is also there to support it for people who do read it as implication/foreshadowing similar to the bare skin in the brambles line I brought up a few days ago being readable as an implication of familiarity with casual flings. It's not baseless, it's just not how you read it and it's fine to read it either way. Because either way, the result is determined by player choice in the game.
I mean the line IS there and while you don't read it that way the line you just talked about it is also there to support it for people who do read it as implication/foreshadowing similar to the bare skin in the brambles line I brought up a few days ago being readable as an implication of familiarity with casual flings. It's not baseless, it's just not how you read it and it's fine to read it either way. Because either way, the result is determined by player choice in the game.
Then you can also justify Lae'zel being fine with it. She is the fastest one to have sex with you and it's completely casual. Same with Astarion, he'll have casual sex with you quite early.
You two are just blatantly ignoring character development. Something they do in act 1 is no longer relevant if their character is written to have changed in act 2.
What I called baseless is the idea that she's not threatened by Halsin for some reason. NOTHING says that.
With the caveat that I'm new to the discussion and I've not read every post in this thread I'm inclined to agree with @Auric's post 100%
Quote
She does say "not tonight" to you asking to share.
Right. And there are layers of meaning to this conversation since, one the surface, you are talking about wine but you are really discussing the possibility of a relationship so "not tonight" is really about the bounds of the relationship. And a died in the wool monogamist would say something like "I think this bottle only has enough for two glasses"
But there are two problems with making the assumption that this is foreshadowing to her being open to share. 1. She only drinks wine with you and has a very romantic kiss with you that has her completely infatuated with you afterward. There is no sex sharing implied.
You are right that it's just . But but "no, not tonight" is not "no, not ever" and that's significant in the context of the conversation.
Quote
And the "she's not threatened anymore" is just 100% pulled out of thin air and is not even an argument. There's nothing that implies this. It is never mentioned. It's a pointless and baseless thing to assume.
Really? I think it's in the choice of partners - the sex workers are no threat her status as primary. Neither is Halsin who seem like something of a relationship anarchist.
Then you can also justify Lae'zel being fine with it. She is the fastest one to have sex with you and it's completely casual. Same with Astarion, he'll have casual sex with you quite early.
You two are just blatantly ignoring character development. Something they do in act 1 is no longer relevant if it is written to be no longer relevant in act 2.
What I called baseless is the idea that she's not threatened by Halsin for some reason. NOTHING says that.
Chill with the accusatory tone, man. For real. It's also a bit weird to imply what people have said and done in the past as part of getting to know them just stops mattering in a discussion involving your belief that the two are inconsistent. If it doesn't matter then the supposed inconsistency doesn't matter and the discussion is pointless.
My bad on misreading that it was about Halsin. I thought you were talking more generally about her characterization.
With the caveat that I'm new to the discussion and I've not read every post in this thread I'm inclined to agree with @Auric's post 100% Right. And there are layers of meaning to this conversation since, one the surface, you are talking about wine but you are really discussing the possibility of a relationship so "not tonight" is really about the bounds of the relationship. And a died in the wool monogamist would say something like "I think this bottle only has enough for two glasses"
But there are two problems with making the assumption that this is foreshadowing to her being open to share. 1. She only drinks wine with you and has a very romantic kiss with you that has her completely infatuated with you afterward. There is no sex sharing implied.
You are right that it's just . But but "no, not tonight" is not "no, not ever" and that's significant in the context of the conversation.
In act 1, she's attracted to you, but she's not interested in a relationship because she's still devoted to Shar and throughout the story, that changes and she falls in love with you. The "no, not ever" is written in act 2, by her declining an open relationship with ALL other companions. That's character development.
What it foreshadows is that she changes and only wants you when she falls in love with you. It literally foreshadows the opposite of what you seem to think it does.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Really? I think it's in the choice of partners - the sex workers are no threat her status as primary. Neither is Halsin who seem like something of a relationship anarchist.
Then why don't they write that? Why is there no question to ask her why she's okay with Halsin and not the rest? Why's there no question to ask for a compromise with the rest?
Because it's not the case. I can't make it easier than just saying that things that aren't there.. aren't there.
I mean this topic is more of a SH's inconsistency regarding Halsin, so.
I'm quoting you more as a jumping point, most of this isn't directed at you. While that's generally become true of the topic there are definitely a couple people that have been very frequently vocal about how they they don't accept Shadowheart being read as anything but monogamous (I saw one person repeat that "we determined she's just monogamous and the rest isn't canon" several times even in other threads). The interactivity IS there and should remain there though, and I see a lot more fetishizing of that interactivity from the people calling it pornographic who can simply choose not to make the choices that trigger that content than I do from the game itself (barring Halsin's totally inappropriate interjections and the general state of his content in Act 3 which most people seem to all agree is very bad). The closest the game gets to pornographic is the Minthara goblin camp scene and that has entire other types of gratuitous fantasy fulfillment and moral problems tied into it (which is referring to a lot more than the grove stuff you have to do to get the scene). A scene being very sexual, or a character opening up about their sexual interests is simply not the same thing as being fetishistic or pornographic. This is true of movies too, lots of sexual content can be depicted without it being pornographic.
Being poly and sex involving more than two people in general are only fantasy fulfillment or a fetish for people that fantasize about it or fetishize it. They're otherwise kinda just normal things that can and do happen in real relationships and it's actually truly a nice thing that a game like this somewhat allows people to express that instead of the greater industry constantly shying away from that aspect of human life. It absolutely could have been better developed but the dev cycle ended up being what it is, so that's unfortunate. I've said before I don't read any inconsistency with Shadowheart's character and more specifically I think triggering some of those lines later in the game because you genuinely want your Tav to make those choices can and should change the context of how you understood things she's said prior the same way you'd do in real life when you learn more about a person you become close with, but specifically for that Tav. After all if you don't make those choices you don't learn those things so your read of the characterization won't have a reason to change, and simply knowing the content exists also should not change your read of the character, especially if you're never going to make those choices anyway. Sure, Shadowheart can absolutely be monogamous. But she can also be open to poly pending your choices and how an individual reads the results. There's a more involved discussion about characters being a little too malleable based on player choice and "show don't tell" (the game does show if you pursue it far enough so I don't understand that particular thing as an argument against it) but most of the time this stuff just won't be perfect and we have to be able to deal with that.
But nah Halsin in Act 3 absolutely needs a revamp, I just don't talk about it in this thread beyond that basic acknowledgement cuz the greater conversation about that already has its own thread.
I don't claim to be some expert writer or anything, but it's basic writer 101 that when you've already established a character in a certain way, throughout all of the story, that suddenly making them pull a 180 often leaves the audience confused and even sometimes angry. A writer can make a 180 work, but there has to be foreshadowing for them to pull it off properly.
There simply isn't any foreshadowing to this change in SH. Nothing in her main story has ever even implied she's interested in anything other than monogamy with the player.
I have no issue with polyamory if it's written properly and makes sense for the character. But in this case, with everything established about her, it doesn't make sense for SH. It's actually quite obvious that she was always intended to be this way, but when they added Halsin last minute, they shoehorned her into being a poly/open option for him and never changed her characterization. It's like trying to fit your left foot in the right shoe, it just doesn't work.
They would be better off scrapping SH and Astarion as the poly options for Halsin and just create characters that actually were designed to fit. That way people are given the polyamory they want and deserve, but then leave SH and Astarion to be the characters in which they were always designed to be.
Chill with the accusatory tone, man. For real. It's also a bit weird to imply what people have said and done in the past as part of getting to know them just stops mattering in a discussion involving your belief that the two are inconsistent. If it doesn't matter then the supposed inconsistency doesn't matter and the discussion is pointless.
My bad on misreading that it was about Halsin. I thought you were talking more generally about her characterization.
It doesn't stop mattering, but like I said in the post above, it shows that they've changed throughout the story.
Lae'zel will have sex with you casually in act 1 and says it's nothing more than that. She doesn't care if you bang Astarion on the side. Lae'zel in act 2 falls in love with you and wants you for herself. That implies character development. It shows she has changed. To then have her be okay with you having a relationship with Halsin in act 3 all of a sudden and say "well, in act 1 she was okay with it?" is ignoring that character development she went through. That's what I meant.
Similarly, Shadowheart flirts with you in act 1 and while she declines attempts at making it open at the party, she evidently didn't flat out say "no". However, she does flat out say "no" in act 2. Therefore, the act 1 interaction is replaced by her character development, so it can't be used as an argument for her saying yes in act 3.
Or, honestly, to make it even more simple, here's an example.
Lets assume a companion says "oh I'm up for an open relationship" in act 1. As the story goes on, they fall in love with you. In act 2, they'll say "nevermind, I'm actually not up for that, I didn't expect to love you as much as I apparently do". To then have them suddenly be okay with it again in act 3 is inconsistent, even if they were okay with it in act 1. Unless they stops loving you as much. Which needs to be mentioned, implied, written down.
Because it's not the case. I can't make it easier than just saying that things that aren't there.. aren't there.
I wouldn't be opposed to a longer discussion of a poly relationship with her but in video games I assume there are lots of conversations that are happening off screen. You also haven't discussed the possibility of remaining monogamous, right? But you are assuming that that's the sort of relationship she prefers.
I wouldn't be opposed to having the discussion gated behind Tav's decision to hire the sex workers but, again, I'm surprised that people feel so strongly about this issue. I always read SH as poly, Lae'zel as a free agent and Gale as a monogamist.
I wouldn't be opposed to a longer discussion of a poly relationship with her but in video games I assume there are lots of conversations that are happening off screen. You also haven't discussed the possibility of remaining monogamous, right? But you are assuming that that's the sort of relationship she prefers.
I wouldn't be opposed to having the discussion gated behind Tav's decision to hire the sex workers but, again, I'm surprised that people feel so strongly about this issue. I always read SH as poly, Lae'zel as a free agent and Gale as a monogamist.
The conversation doesn't happen off screen. It just straight up doesn't happen. I can also say Lae'zel will kill you after the fifth time you have sex with her because she mentions it to Wyll offscreen.
That doesn't make it true, lol.
Nobody's assuming she prefers that relationship. She says she prefers that in act 2. Never does she change her stance on that, except according to you, offscreen. And for some reason only for these two interactions. After that she's all back to being mono for the rest of her main story in act 3.
Lets assume a companion says "oh I'm up for an open relationship" in act 1. As the story goes on, they fall in love with you. In act 2, they'll say "nevermind, I'm actually not up for that, I didn't expect to love you as much as I apparently do". To then have them suddenly be okay with it again in act 3 is inconsistent, even if they were okay with it in act 1. Unless they stops loving you as much. Which needs to be mentioned, implied, written down.
I think the flaw in your argument is the assumptions that loving relationships = monogamous ones. Poly relationships are loving relationships - that's why the latin and greek are smashed together poly-amory / multiple-love
So she loves you and is open to being with other people who will share nicely.
I literally do not understand this and I see it so many times when this topic is brought up else where. Have you done her romance? It is all about you and her she will never, and I mean NEVER, bring up anything about opening it to somebody else. She talks about wanting to spend her life with YOU, wanting kids with YOU, going and living with her parents in secluded cottage with YOU. If she's poly why doesn't she ask you to open the relationship? Compare it to Halsin the second you "romance" him he is immediately asking you to bring somebody in with him. Or even the Drow twins scene if you try to do it with somebody else and you're not romancing her she doesn't try to get involved. I legitimately see nothing about her that says she's poly until you get to act 3 and the complete 180 is pulled with, conveniently, the character she just happens to have the same writer as.
Nobody's assuming she prefers that relationship. She says she prefers that in act 2. Never does she change her stance on that, except according to you, offscreen. And for some reason only for these two interactions. After that she's all back to being mono for the rest of her main story in act 3.
I think people in this thread are assuming that SH prefers monogamous relationships. Yet no conversation about monogamy takes place on screen and three poly relationship dialogues do happen on screen. So . . .
Lets assume a companion says "oh I'm up for an open relationship" in act 1. As the story goes on, they fall in love with you. In act 2, they'll say "nevermind, I'm actually not up for that, I didn't expect to love you as much as I apparently do". To then have them suddenly be okay with it again in act 3 is inconsistent, even if they were okay with it in act 1. Unless they stops loving you as much. Which needs to be mentioned, implied, written down.
I think the flaw in your argument is the assumptions that loving relationships = monogamous ones. Poly relationships are loving relationships - that's why the latin and greek are smashed together poly-amory / multiple-love
So she loves you and is open to being with other people who will share nicely.
I don't mean to be rude by repeating myself, but I really want to know what you think about this.
Even if I agree that it is clearly established in Acts 1-2 that SH is open for poly/including others, where is it established that player is open to including Halsin and is not threatened by him?
It doesn't stop mattering, but like I said in the post above, it shows that they've changed throughout the story.
Lae'zel will have sex with you casually in act 1 and says it's nothing more than that. She doesn't care if you bang Astarion on the side. Lae'zel in act 2 falls in love with you and wants you for herself. That implies character development. It shows she has changed. To then have her be okay with you having a relationship with Halsin in act 3 all of a sudden and say "well, in act 1 she was okay with it?" is ignoring that character development she went through. That's what I meant.
Similarly, Shadowheart flirts with you in act 1 and while she declines attempts at making it open at the party, she evidently didn't flat out say "no". However, she does flat out say "no" in act 2. Therefore, the act 1 interaction is replaced by her character development, so it can't be used as an argument for her saying yes in act 3.
I understand this a lot better, thanks. I still don't necessarily agree cuz people change their minds all the time. It's definitely a problem for Lae'Zel, because as you say what isn't there isn't there and she IS quite fierce about her boundaries. But likewise what is there IS there for Shadowheart, and it's just Halsin's causing most of the problems other than the usual fan quibbling we're all doing wanting the rest of the writing to be more ideal in some way.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I think people in this thread are assuming that SH prefers monogamous relationships. Yet no conversation about monogamy takes place on screen and three poly relationship dialogues do happen on screen. So . . .
Huh, kinda wild I didn't think to just say it like this myself. But yeah, generally this.
I literally do not understand this and I see it so many times when this topic is brought up else where. Have you done her romance? It is all about you and her she will never, and I mean NEVER, bring up anything about opening it to somebody else. She talks about wanting to spend her life with YOU, wanting kids with YOU, going and living with her parents in secluded cottage with YOU. If she's poly why doesn't she ask you to open the relationship? Compare it to Halsin the second you "romance" him he is immediately asking you to bring somebody in with him. Or even the Drow twins scene if you try to do it with somebody else and you're not romancing her she doesn't try to get involved. I legitimately see nothing about her that says she's poly until you get to act 3 and the complete 180 is pulled with, conveniently, the character she just happens to have the same writer as.
I guess because I am poly these don't seem inconsistent with a pretty straightforward poly relationship. My last partner had primary that she nested with, had kids with and she and I spent the weekends together hiking and such.
I think the flaw in your argument is the assumptions that loving relationships = monogamous ones. Poly relationships are loving relationships - that's why the latin and greek are smashed together poly-amory / multiple-love
So she loves you and is open to being with other people who will share nicely.
Of course poly is loving as well. There's nothing wrong with poly. But that's not how the characters are written until their sudden 180 change in act 3. Not even Halsin.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I think people in this thread are assuming that SH prefers monogamous relationships. Yet no conversation about monogamy takes place on screen and three poly relationship dialogues do happen on screen. So . . .
What do you mean? 5 of them happen. All of them in act 2. Way before their random 180 in act 3. One conversation per other origin companion. ALL of them are shut down because they're ALL mono. Not a single one of them wants poly or open with another.
Nobody's assuming she prefers that relationship. She says she prefers that in act 2. Never does she change her stance on that, except according to you, offscreen. And for some reason only for these two interactions. After that she's all back to being mono for the rest of her main story in act 3.
I think people in this thread are assuming that SH prefers monogamous relationships. Yet no conversation about monogamy takes place on screen and three poly relationship dialogues do happen on screen. So . . .
Monogamy is the default though. They don't need to have her spell it out, when it's already shown naturally through her behavior and dialogue with the player.
ALL of them are shut down because they're ALL mono. Not a single one of them wants poly or open with another.
This is where the crux of all the perceived inconsistency comes from. The design choice to not only have all the companions flirt with each other, but to to have cases like Karlach volunteer themselves to be involved only to heelturn on it later because of a general lack of development. The entire dynamic that was advertised to us got pinned on Halsin doing an absolutely terrible portrayal of it, and signs of a better dynamic that DOES involve the other origins they didn't get to develop it for remain leaving us all disappointed with the dynamic we were left with.
I understand this a lot better, thanks. I still don't necessarily agree cuz people change their minds all the time. It's definitely a problem for Lae'Zel, because as you say what isn't there isn't there and she IS quite fierce about her boundaries. But likewise what is there IS there for Shadowheart, and it's just Halsin's causing most of the problems other than the usual fan quibbling we're all doing wanting the rest of the writing to be more ideal in some way.
People do change their minds all the time. But this is a video game. Random 180 changes to characters should be explained. If she would no longer be interested in mono after she was written to want it in act 2, then that needs to be implied. Add conversations with her about it, where she shows displeasure with the way things are in the relationship, and that she'd rather have it be an open one.
Now don't get me wrong, nobody actually wants this, but at least it'd remove the inconsistency from it.
Even if I agree that it is clearly established in Acts 1-2 that SH is open for poly/including others, where is it established that player is open to including Halsin and is not threatened by him?
That's a good point. I didn't realize that she suggested that before Tav hired the twins. Again, wouldn't be opposed to having it gated behind that point but the following doesn't seem like a strange conversations:
A: We should have a foursome with some sex workers. B: Okay, but I want to include that hippie body builder so make it fivesome
This is where the crux of all the perceived inconsistency comes from. The design choice to not only have all the companions flirt with each other, but to to have cases like Karlach volunteer themselves to be involved only to heelturn on it later because of a general lack of development. The entire dynamic that was advertised to us got pinned on Halsin doing an absolutely terrible portrayal of it, and signs of a better dynamic that DOES involve the other origins they didn't get to develop it for remain leaving us all disappointed with the dynamic we were left with.
You got it entirely right, but that's why it's not "perceived" inconsistency, that's why it IS inconsistency. They, for reasons only they know, decided to have all origin companions be mono. Any kind of flirting they did with each other becomes irrelevant by the time you're nearing the end of act 2, because you are forced to choose a companion, meaning their character development has reached the stage where they are no longer interested in each other. At least not together with you. They want you, or nothing.
If they chose to have some of the more obvious choices be poly (Shadowheart/Karlach/Tav or Astarion/Lae'zel/Tav) then there wouldn't be a problem anymore. But they didn't do that, they instead wrote them all to be mono and gave them mono romance progression. Thus, the inconsistency when Halsin suddenly shows up.
Monogamy is the default though. They don't need to have her spell it out, when it's already shown naturally through her behavior and dialogue with the player.
That's a bugbear of mine. A relationship is monogamous / exclusive when two people agree it is, not before.
Where or when is it established that player is open to including Halsin and is not threatened by him?
You've misunderstood me. Halsin's forced involvement that even breaches consent is absolutely THE problem. I'm on about Shadowheart as polyamorous being a totally valid read of the characterization if your choices pursue that in general.
Monogamy is the default though. They don't need to have her spell it out, when it's already shown naturally through her behavior and dialogue with the player.
That's a bugbear of mine. A relationship is monogamous / exclusive when two people agree it is, not before.
Except for most people that isn't the case. Most people are monogamous, therefore the relationship is assumed to be monogamous until discussed and agreed otherwise.
Monogamy is the default though. They don't need to have her spell it out, when it's already shown naturally through her behavior and dialogue with the player.
That's a bugbear of mine. A relationship is monogamous / exclusive when two people agree it is, not before.
What? If you want to be poly more power to you but let's not pretend like monogamy isn't the default for the vast majority of people on this planet.
Monogamy is the default though. They don't need to have her spell it out, when it's already shown naturally through her behavior and dialogue with the player.
That's a bugbear of mine. A relationship is monogamous / exclusive when two people agree it is, not before.
What? If you want to be poly more power to you but let's not pretend like monogamy isn't the default for the vast majority of people on this planet.
This is going to start going in a direction that will be uncomfortable for everyone so let's just not argue what type of relationship is or isn't default on behalf of a planet full of people being presumed to be spoken for.
It genuinely doesn't even matter which is the norm. You mutually agree to mono in act 2 anyway, and that mutual agreement is never written to have changed after that.
Except for most people that isn't the case. Most people are monogamous, therefore the relationship is assumed to be monogamous until discussed and agreed otherwise.
I think it's always a good idea to talk about the bounds of a relationship - unexpressed assumptions cause problems in relationships. I think mono people can learn some things from poly sorts
And, no, the best assumption is that you are dating until you agree on exclusivity. And once you agree to be exclusive it's good idea to share your assumptions of what the relationship will look like.
Where or when is it established that player is open to including Halsin and is not threatened by him?
You've misunderstood me. Halsin's forced involvement that even breaches consent is absolutely THE problem. I'm on about Shadowheart as polyamorous being a totally valid read of the characterization if your choices pursue that in general.
If they took Halsin, the drows, Mizora, all that optional content out of the game, SH is shown as being naturally monogamous throughout her whole romance with the player. Just because the player has the option to make her join a polyamorous/open relationship doesn't mean she is written to be like that normally.
It genuinely doesn't even matter which is the norm. You mutually agree to mono in act 2 anyway, and that mutual agreement is never written to have changed after that.
I don't remember that conversation. Do you have video of it?
Except for most people that isn't the case. Most people are monogamous, therefore the relationship is assumed to be monogamous until discussed and agreed otherwise.
I think it's always a good idea to talk about the bounds of a relationship - unexpressed assumptions cause problems in relationships. I think mono people can learn some things from poly sorts
And, no, the best assumption is that you are dating until you agree on exclusivity. And once you agree to be exclusive it's good idea to share your assumptions of what the relationship will look like.
So they need to give us a god damn way to do that with her in game. That is what people are asking for in this thread. Let us define the relationship as exclusive with her so, as it is implied throughout the entire romance, people don't get upset when this stuff is sprung on them out of nowhere.
I don't remember that conversation. Do you have video of it?
Every single conversation where you ask for a shared relationship between the origins. They'll all shut it down, saying they want you and will not compromise, establishing mono.
It's a lot of dialogue, and it happens between a lot of different companions.
Except for most people that isn't the case. Most people are monogamous, therefore the relationship is assumed to be monogamous until discussed and agreed otherwise.
I think it's always a good idea to talk about the bounds of a relationship - unexpressed assumptions cause problems in relationships. I think mono people can learn some things from poly sorts
And, no, the best assumption is that you are dating until you agree on exclusivity. And once you agree to be exclusive it's good idea to share your assumptions of what the relationship will look like.
It is established that the player and SH are exclusive at the end of act 2. Plus most people will assume she means she wants to be with you now and always, as meaning only you. You may look at things differently, but the vast majority would take this as meaning monogamy.
It is established that the player and SH are exclusive at the end of act 2. Plus most people will assume she means she wants to be with you now and always, as meaning only you. You may look at things differently, but the vast majority would take this as meaning monogamy.
I'd say the conversations where she forces you to pick between her and <other origin companion> are even more telling, but yes, this too, just to a lesser extent because if you really feel like reading between the lines you can still find ways to say "Nah man she meant otherwise" even if that would be blatant bad writing.
Every single conversation where you ask for a shared relationship between the origins. They'll all shut it down, saying they want you and will not compromise, establishing mono.
It's a lot of dialogue, and it happens between a lot of different companions.
But we're talking about SH, right? She never agreed to be exclusive and indeed she is open to idea of involving others so . . .
I don't remember the conversation at the end of the Temple of Shar but I would have noticed if she said "only with you". If you have a video that contradicts it I'll watch but otherwise I think that an imagined conversation.
If they took Halsin, the drows, Mizora, all that optional content out of the game, SH is shown as being naturally monogamous throughout her whole romance with the player. Just because the player has the option to make her join a polyamorous/open relationship doesn't mean she is written to be like that normally.
Sure if none of it existed you'd be right. But it does exist, and that allows what I said to be true. And I will never agree those choices should be wholesale removed from the game. I would much rather they finish developing the dynamic to be better. This is of course still with exception to Halsin whose behavior if you turn him down is unacceptable and needs to be adjusted.
But we're talking about SH, right? She never agreed to be exclusive and indeed she is open to idea of involving others so . . .
I don't remember the conversation at the end of the Temple of Shar but I would have noticed if she said "only with you". If you have a video that contradicts it I'll watch but otherwise I think that an imagined conversation.
5 of those are with Shadowheart. I've said that to you about 3 times now. You're just repeating yourself with no arguments left to be made.
What is your point, exactly, other than ignoring what I said, and ignoring what is said in game?
Sure if none of it existed you'd be right. But it does exist, and that allows what I said to be true. And I will never agree those choices should be wholesale removed from the game. I would much rather they finish developing the dynamic to be better.
One way or another, it needs to be changed. As it stands it's inconsistent, because they exist in a vacuum that has no writing to back up why they exist. That's the whole problem.
If he wants to go the direction where he makes it actually make sense, that's his choice to make. And it will take a LOT more work than just removing them, because oh boy is there a lot of dialogue in the game that would have to be changed and added.
But nobody's going to tell you you're wrong if you prefer these interactions. I will tell you you are wrong if you say they make sense in their current context.
But we're talking about SH, right? She never agreed to be exclusive and indeed she is open to idea of involving others so . . .
I don't remember the conversation at the end of the Temple of Shar but I would have noticed if she said "only with you". If you have a video that contradicts it I'll watch but otherwise I think that an imagined conversation.
5 of those are with Shadowheart. I've said that to you about 3 times now. You're just repeating yourself with no arguments left to be made.
What is your point, exactly, other than ignoring what I said, and ignoring what is said in game?
What? When, exactly, does she say that? I get that you are saying it but I think you are imagining it. Evidence please.
What? When, exactly, does she say that? I get that you are saying it but I think you are imagining it. Evidence please.
You might've wanted to read more than 5 posts if you're going to be asking for evidence while you yourself say "things make sense because they happen off screen." But here, out of courtesy. Here's the full quote from a post I made on page 31:
When you start romancing Karlach:
Shadowheart: I can't help but notice you seem happier of late. There's a spring in your step that wasn't there before. Just a pity I'm not responsible for it. Tav: I'm not a swan - I don't mate for life. I want to be with you and Karlach. Shadowheart: I admire your ambition - and your belief in your own stamina - but Karlach deserves you to herself. And perhaps there's someone out there for me... Shadowheart: There's no hard feelings - genuinely. You deserve happiness, and I'm more than glad to remain with you to bear witness to it.
It is not mentioned that it's because of her situation. Otherwise, she'd be interested in hooking up after Karlach dies, no? But she's just straight up not interested in sharing. And well.. lets just remember this is what she says if you choose her over Karlach.
Shadowheart: I can't help but notice you seem happier of late. There's a spring in your step that wasn't there before. Just a pity I'm not responsible for it. Tav: I didn't realise you felt that way about me. Shadowheart: Sometimes it can be difficult to know what you want - what you need - until it's already lost to you. I know that from experience. Shadowheart: I won't lie. I won't pretend that part of me isn't hoping you'll look in my eye and still feel something. Shadowheart: Foolish, I know. But allow me to wallow in the fantasy a moment, bittersweet as it is. Tav: Wait. This is wrong. You're the one I'm supposed to be with. I see that now. Shadowheart: But what about Karlach? You'd break her heart just to be with me? Tav: Consider it done. Shadowheart: I won't lie... I feel a little sorry for her. But only a little bit. Shadowheart: You may be what's been missing from my life.
So it's quite clear she just doesn't want to share. She's straight up happy you dump Karlach and only feels a little sorry for her. The last line is defining that she wants you specifically, but if that's not enough, this is the reply if you ask for open/poly with Wyll.
Shadowheart: I can't help but notice you seem happier of late. There's a spring in your step that wasn't there before. Just a pity I'm not responsible for it. Tav: Must I choose between you and Wyll? We've travelled together, fought together, perhaps we can love together. Shadowheart: Wyll comes from an old, traditional line. I doubt his family would like their heir to introduce them to his lover's lover. Shadowheart: In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity. Shadowheart: There's no hard feelings - genuinely. You deserve happiness, and I'm more than glad to remain with you to bear witness to it.
Those are not the words of a person that's open to sharing. Ever. Because nothing at all ever indicates that she'd be any more of a spare lover to you with Wyll, Karlach, Gale, Astarion or Lae'zel than she would be with Halsin.
And it will take a LOT more work than just removing them, because oh boy is there a lot of dialogue in the game that would have to be changed and added.
Since I don't have any of the problems with Shadowheart's content in general that you do, I see things different. If they fix Halsin to respect consent, that pretty much solves the basic necessities I think need to be addressed. Second on the list is his general characterization in Act 3 being so wildly out of character compared to who we get to know before then, a problem completely unique to him and the circumstances of his inclusion as a companion in development. Third on the list if they get ambitious is yes a lot of work to follow through on developing better poly dynamics involving Origins in a better way than was done with Halsin, but that's still better to hope for than deleting options entirely imo.
One way or another, it needs to be changed. As it stands it's inconsistent, because they exist in a vacuum that has no writing to back up why they exist. That's the whole problem.
I don't think it needs to be changed but one place I would like to see is to invite nocturne into the relationship. I got the sense they were more than friends once.
following doesn't seem like a strange conversations:
A: We should have a foursome with some sex workers. B: Okay, but I want to include that hippie body builder so make it fivesome
And there is a problem. Earlier I argued basically the same point, but I was met with the following counterarguments, which shouldn't be ignored IMO (I'll copy the parts that are most important to me, I'm sorry for not including everything):
- In relation to her saying "There's an idea...":
Quote
The suggestive tone in her voice shows serious interest. There are a lot of people who don't like saying no to their love interest (or anyone they care about for that matter) when they show interest in doing something, especially people more insecure. They don't want to disappoint the other. That's what happens here. In fact, the writers even know this, because you can do that exact thing to Gale. You can pressure him into accepting through a persuasion check, and while I don't know the exact words used there, I see this as Shadowheart rolling a persuasion check on the player. Some people will be more inclined to accept.
- About her basically telling that she thought about Halsin many times and fantasized about him:
Quote
There is a massive difference between being okay with sharing with prostitutes, and sharing with a travelling companion - a "friend".
Even if she thinks that way about him, supposedly wanting a threesome, that's not something she's supposed to voice.
For some added context: It is not shown in the video I linked previously, but it possible to navigate drow conversation in a way that results in SH saying "There's an idea..." before player suggests it, by asking questions, so it results in SH saying "We should have a foursome with some sex workers.", not the player.
But they are OPTIONAL. Her main romance is written as monogamous so that is the canon experience.
The main Absolute story is the canon experience, everything else that's optional is simply just for fun and more stuff to do. They become part of the players individual story, if they choose to do it. But when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter if you do it at all because it doesn't affect the main story. These optional things simply can't be considered canon because that wouldn't make any sense.
Well they gave Tav a crappy line with Karlach - "I'm not swan?" Yuk.
But, again, doesn't seem mono to me. Sounds like a gracious response to someone who is announcing themselves to be a free agent.
(very) unpopular opinion: I don't think Karlach is very well written.
On Wyll, that is undoubtedly the response of someone poly.
"Wyll comes from an old, traditional line. I doubt his family would like their heir to introduce them to his lover's lover."
Notice she's putting it on Wyll and his family not her own inclinations.
"In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover." It's a dig - SH has sharp edges - but I read it as "I don't want to your secondary, I want to your primary"
Since I don't have any of the problems with Shadowheart's content in general that you do, I see things different. If they fix Halsin to respect consent, that pretty much solves the basic necessities I think need to be addressed. Second on the list is his general characterization in Act 3 being so wildly out of character compared to who we get to know before then, a problem completely unique to him and the circumstances of his inclusion as a companion in development. Third on the list if they get ambitious is yes a lot of work to follow through on developing better poly dynamics involving Origins in a better way than was done with Halsin, but that's still better to hope for than deleting options entirely imo.
Read the quotes I posted over from page 31 and tell me how it makes sense that she will accept poly/open with Halsin but not with the characters that she was way more attracted to.
It requires so much suspension of belief that it's just incredibly bad, inconsistent writing. That's the whole problem. And yes, Halsin's characterization in act 3 is incredibly bad right now. That's why the Halsin thread is even longer than this one.
I personally would prefer them deleting these vacuumed scenarios than pull them out of the vacuum and write additional dialogue around them so they make sense. But either way, I'd be content, because what bothers me is the inconsistent out of character replies that have no consequences. I just think that it would cost too much time that I'd prefer they spent on - for example - superior epilogues, and therefore removing these interactions is just significantly easier because it's much less work.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I don't think it needs to be changed but one place I would like to see is to invite nocturne into the relationship. I got the sense they were more than friends once.
Nocturne herself heavily implies it was a platonic relationship, so they'd have to tweak her dialogue a bit to make that work, but not much. I was actually quite surprised by that myself.
The entire romance is optional so again, I'm going to stop here as I will not engage with your opinions about canon.
Even if you don't romance her though she shows no interest in Halsin or polyamory. Lae'zel has casual sex with one of the guys at the grove party and you aren't romancing her. Why does SH not show any interest in Halsin or anyone then?
Well they gave Tav a crappy line with Karlach - "I'm not swan?" Yuk.
But, again, doesn't seem mono to me. Sounds like a gracious response to someone who is announcing themselves to be a free agent.
(very) unpopular opinion: I don't think Karlach is very well written.
Indeed, it's her graciously bowing out. Until you decline Karlach for her, then she hardly feels bad for her because she's happy she got you. Even though she has flirted a lot with Karlach and therefore evidently cares for her. But not enough to want a relationship with her, because she wants mono with you.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
On Wyll, that is undoubtedly the response of someone poly.
"Wyll comes from an old, traditional line. I doubt his family would like their heir to introduce them to his lover's lover."
Notice she's putting it on Wyll and his family not her own inclinations.
"In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover." It's a dig - SH has sharp edges - but I read it as "I don't want to your secondary, I want to your primary"
So what she says that backs you up if you ignore the rest is true, and what she says that proves you wrong and blatantly states she's mono is just her lying?
Ok.
Here's what someone who doesn't assume she's lying about everything that's convenient for your argument sees: She gives an excuse as to why Wyll doesn't want it, but then speaks the truth about why she doesn't want it. And the reason she doesn't want it is because she wants you alone. With nobody else involved. I think they have a word for those type of relationships.
Nocturne herself heavily implies it was a platonic relationship, so they'd have to tweak her dialogue a bit to make that work, but not much. I was actually quite surprised by that myself.
That's interesting. I felt like Nocturne was trying to jog memories and was sad to see they didn't emerge. I think it was the braiding hair line. I also felt like the noblestalk conversation was an analogue for nocturne coming out as trans. Funny how different people read different things into the same conversation, isn't it?
So what she says that backs you up if you ignore the rest is true, and what she says that proves you wrong and blatantly states she's mono is just her lying?
Ok.
I responded to that earlier. SHE IS NOT SAYING SHE"S MONO. She's saying "not with X, not as a secondary"
You do realize that the you are the one arguing against the dialogue in the game, right? You are reading monogamy into a person who clearly expresses an interest in having others in the relationship. Halsin doesn't threaten her, Wyll does. Wyll would demand monogamy.
That's interesting. I felt like Nocturne was trying to jog memories and was sad to see they didn't emerge. I think it was the braiding hair line. I also felt like the noblestalk conversation was an analogue for nocturne coming out as trans. Funny how different people read different things into the same conversation, isn't it?
Nocturne called it "small things you would've forgotten anyway even without the memory loss". I think she wouldn't have worded it that way if it was something more serious, but I can understand if you assume Nocturne simply didn't want to stir shit because Nocturne knew Shadowheart was in a new relationship with the person right next to her. This situation is actually somewhat up to interpretation, indeed.
I responded to that earlier. SHE IS NOT SAYING SHE"S MONO. She's saying "not with X, not as a secondary"
You do realize that the you are the one arguing against the dialogue in the game, right? You are reading monogamy into a person who clearly expresses an interest in having others in the relationship. Halsin doesn't threaten her, Wyll does. Wyll would demand monogamy.
You never, ever, explained why Wyll, Karlach, Lae'zel, Astarion or Gale would threaten her, but Halsin not. Except that supposedly, this somehow happened off screen.
Well, I think it didn't happen off screen. I guess we are at an impasse. Do you have proof it happened off screen?
Also I'm not sure in what world the line "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity." implies "clear interest in having others in the relationship." Except if you read the line in the completely other direction, somehow.
tell me how it makes sense that she will accept poly/open with Halsin but not with the characters that she was way more attracted to.
It requires so much suspension of belief that it's just incredibly bad, inconsistent writing. That's the whole problem. And yes, Halsin's characterization in act 3 is incredibly bad right now. That's why the Halsin thread is even longer than this one.
I generally think that's something that would be adjusted about the interactions if they did fix Halsin's Act 3 characterization so that's just me not thinking it needed to be specified separately.
I generally think that's something that would be adjusted about the interactions if they did fix Halsin's Act 3 characterization so that's just me not thinking it needed to be specified separately.
If they "fix" Halsin to have his poly make sense, it's not automatically "fixed" for other companions (Shadowheart/Astarion). They need their own justifications, which they do not have right now, in the slightest.
Honestly, the fact that there's so much stuff, that is apparently open to interpretation, shows they didn't do their job right. If they wanted to write SH as poly they should have foreshadowed, and they should have done so in a clear way that can't be confused as something else.
If you're very important information, that requires foreshadowing to be believed by everyone, is "open to interpretation" or is "shown offscreen" then it's blatantly shitty writing.
I generally think that's something that would be adjusted about the interactions if they did fix Halsin's Act 3 characterization so that's just me not thinking it needed to be specified separately.
If they "fix" Halsin to have his poly make sense, it's not automatically "fixed" for other companions (Shadowheart/Astarion). They need their own justifications, which they do not have right now, in the slightest.
I just have enough faith in the writers' abilities to assume if they fix an entire characterization arc, they'd adjust what kinds of reactions there are to it (I expect a similar amount of work/change if they were to finish developing Karlach's quest in Act 3 instead of just leaving plot devices for it all over the floor with no way to use them). But maybe that's closer to the big ambitious hope.
I just have enough faith in the writers' abilities to assume if they fix an entire characterization arc, they'd adjust what kinds of reactions there are to it (I expect a similar amount of work/change if they were to finish developing Karlach's quest in Act 3 instead of just leaving plot devices for it all over the floor with no way to use them). But maybe that's closer to the big ambitious hope.
Of course, I also have full faith in their ability to do it. They got more than enough feedback to explain what's wrong. I however do not have full faith in their ability to work more than a normal human being can, especially because they got it this wrong already which is likely due to time constraints, and any work that goes towards making these poly situations make sense is work that doesn't go toward other content that I would much rather have.
Well, I think it didn't happen off screen. I guess we are at an impasse. Do you have proof it happened off screen?
We probably are. Again I came to thread in state of confusion - "why has this thread gotten so long"
She's not threatened by the twins or Halsin. Others have mentioned Minthara but I've never had her in the party.
I guess it's my reading as someone who is poly. If a partner takes an interest in someone who is strictly monogamous that is a threat to the relationship. Halsin - who doesn't really do 'relationships' - isn't a threat. Neither are sex workers.
So the pattern seems pretty clear to me - no to sharing with people who don't like to share, yes to sharing with people who like to share. It makes much more sense than reading monogamy backwards into the previous conversations.
I came to thread in state of confusion - "why has this thread gotten so long".
It would probably behoove you to read the entire thread.
I read the entire Halsin thread before I made my first post in it on page like, 47 or something, so I knew what was going on and what people were talking about.
It seems to me that you feel the need to defend the poly thing in game because you feel you need to defend yourself in real life as a poly person.
We probably are. Again I came to thread in state of confusion - "why has this thread gotten so long"
She's not threatened by the twins or Halsin. Others have mentioned Minthara but I've never had her in the party.
I guess it's my reading as someone who is poly. If a partner takes an interest in someone who is strictly monogamous that is a threat to the relationship. Halsin - who doesn't really do 'relationships' - isn't a threat. Neither are sex workers.
So the pattern seems pretty clear to me - no to sharing with people who don't like to share, yes to sharing with people who like to share. It makes much more sense than reading monogamy backwards into the previous conversations.
Poly is a type of relationship, first of all. You of all of us here should know. Which means Halsin, as a supposed representation of poly, isn't even actually poly. Secondly, it is not yet established that Halsin doesn't do relationships at the point of his proposal. The proposal is no different than the one you make regarding any other companion. No, off screen is not an argument, I think we've established that and as someone who asks for proof on the regular, I hope you acknowledge that too.
Additionally, you never even get the option to make a poly proposal regarding other companions. If Shadowheart would be up for poly, then she would accept your suggestion - after all, you ask for the exact same thing as you ask with Halsin, and we established above that he's no less a "threat". Then, you would return to the other party (Wyll, Karlach, Lae'zel, Astarion or Gale) and make the proposal to them too. But that is not how it happens. How it happens is that Shadowheart is not interested in poly whatsoever. Because she's mono. As is clear through the dialogue.
And yes, you do read things very differently, if you think "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity." implies "clear interest in having others in the relationship."
Well, I think it didn't happen off screen. I guess we are at an impasse. Do you have proof it happened off screen?
We probably are. Again I came to thread in state of confusion - "why has this thread gotten so long"
She's not threatened by the twins or Halsin. Others have mentioned Minthara but I've never had her in the party.
I guess it's my reading as someone who is poly. If a partner takes an interest in someone who is strictly monogamous that is a threat to the relationship. Halsin - who doesn't really do 'relationships' - isn't a threat. Neither are sex workers.
So the pattern seems pretty clear to me - no to sharing with people who don't like to share, yes to sharing with people who like to share. It makes much more sense than reading monogamy backwards into the previous conversations.
How does she know Halsin isn't a threat? It's never discussed so how could she possibly know that?
I also wanna add: you can solo romance Halsin without him showing any interest in SH, nor her with him. But if you solo romance SH they suddenly show interest in one another. Can you explain that?
I came to thread in state of confusion - "why has this thread gotten so long".
It would probably behoove you to read the entire thread.
I read the entire Halsin thread before I made my first post in it on page like, 47 or something, so I knew what was going on and what people were talking about.
Good for you. I wouldn't do that.
But I announced that I hadn't read it in full which I think is good form. I'm leaving concluding that a few individuals are really invested in the topic and at least some of them believe that monogamy is the 'natural' assumption in any relationship and this attitude impacts the way they interpret the dialogues.
But you can romance Karlach and Halsin at the same time and Astarion and Halsin at the same time too, so that means they are poly too. How come SH doesn't agree on poly with Astarion or Karlach? There is other explanation though - SH/Astarion/Karlach treat Halsin no more than a fling, casual sex source for Tav and they ok with open relationship if Tav is.
Most people are monogamous so they're likely to interpret it as monogamous as well. Maybe the writers should have taken that into consideration when attempting to write something that is supposed to be coherent.
They would have to be very clear on the polyamory aspect, and based on the existence of this thread, they weren't. So like maybe they should have written it better...
But I announced that I hadn't read it in full which I think is good form. I'm leaving concluding that a few individuals are really invested in the topic and at least some of them believe that monogamy is the 'natural' assumption in any relationship and this attitude impacts the way they interpret the dialogues.
It was indeed good form to say you didn't read the rest of the thread. Even if it can sometimes be slightly annoying.
I never made clear what I think is a natural assumption. To me that is not very relevant in a videogame, because I think anything that isn't written down is an inconsistency anyway. If romance is an option, the preference should be implied in game, not in real life. Thankfully, in this game it is. And that is not why we interpreted dialogue differently. You are free to reply to my most recent post above, but you are also free to take a break from the thread. Either way, thank you for your contribution. Keeping this thread alive is one of the chances we have at having Larian acknowledge this situation, which is beneficial to both those that wish the interactions between Shadowheart and Halsin are changed, but also those who just wish a complete rehash of Halsin's romance.
But you can romance Karlach and Halsin at the same time and Astarion and Halsin at the same time too, so that means they are poly too. How come SH doesn't agree on poly with Astarion or Karlach? There is other explanation though - SH/Astarion/Karlach treat Halsin no more than a fling, casual sex source for Tav and they ok with open relationship if Tav is.
That seems mostly right. SH is fine is she the primary. Apologies if this has already been posted but I just found this on youtube - she also forgives Mizora but asks that Tav consult with her first. She also mentions that she had many flings while being trained as a Sharran:
But you can romance Karlach and Halsin at the same time and Astarion and Halsin at the same time too, so that means they are poly too. How come SH doesn't agree on poly with Astarion or Karlach? There is other explanation though - SH/Astarion/Karlach treat Halsin no more than a fling, casual sex source for Tav and they ok with open relationship if Tav is.
That seems mostly right. SH is fine is she the primary. Apologies if this has already been posted but I just found this on youtube - she also forgives Mizora but asks that Tav consult with her first. She also mentions that she had many flings while being trained as a Sharran:
So yes, as I said, if you treat Halsin's thing not as proper romance , but fling or just casual sex - it makes much more sense with all her dialogue in act 2(her denying poly proposals). She is just ok with open relationship(just like Astarion/Karlach) if Tav is ok with that, but remains mono.
So yes, as I said, if you treat Halsin's thing not as proper romance , but fling or just casual sex - it makes much more sense with all her dialogue in act 2(her denying poly proposals). She is just ok with open relationship(just like Astarion/Karlach) if Tav is ok with that, but remains mono.
I think it comes down to understanding of poly - I've read all the attempt the classify poly relationships and think it comes down to this: it's poly if the partners think it's poly.
I consider "open relationships" a type of poly. Usually used by people who want to be poly but don't want to consider themselves part of a club or who just really, really hate mashing latin and greek roots together.
But you can romance Karlach and Halsin at the same time and Astarion and Halsin at the same time too, so that means they are poly too. How come SH doesn't agree on poly with Astarion or Karlach? There is other explanation though - SH/Astarion/Karlach treat Halsin no more than a fling, casual sex source for Tav and they ok with open relationship if Tav is.
This other explanation falls flat because it's something the player has to assume. The second you have to assume that's just how it is, that's bad writing. Reality is that Halsin was added late as a romance option and they wanted him to be poly/open, thus they changed the other companions reactions to fit that. If they wanted us to think it was just a fling, they should have dialogue for that. They have not. And even then, them being okay with a fling is awkward, because then you should be able to ask for a fling with all companions, which leads to a can of worms they probably don't want opened.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
She also mentions that she had many flings while being trained as a Sharran:
The Mizora scene has also been talked about indeed. And it's also out of character, though less so, reasons I don't really feel like repeating right now because we'll just be juggling 5 different conversations at once that kind of already happened in this thread.
The dialogue about casual sex being encouraged as Sharran is unfortunately a complete contradiction, and thus not canon, because it is otherwise mentioned that Shar looked down on sex without purpose (aka sex that helps with doing her bidding), which makes sense because she is or at least was the goddess of, amongst other things, seduction. They therefore had to actually do it in secret or come up with excuses to do so, which means she obviously had action, but not to that extent. Also explains why her relationship with Nocturne is implied to be platonic. This is established during her entire Sharran path in act 3 amongst a few other scenarios and implications, where she will eventually break up with you despite still loving you because she has no time for you.
And even if they were to make this canon, it would not explain why she would still be like that in act 3. After all, she went through 2 acts of character progression and as we already established, she has changed into a mono person who wants Tav alone.
So yes, as I said, if you treat Halsin's thing not as proper romance , but fling or just casual sex - it makes much more sense with all her dialogue in act 2(her denying poly proposals). She is just ok with open relationship(just like Astarion/Karlach) if Tav is ok with that, but remains mono.
I think it comes down to understanding of poly - I've read all the attempt the classify poly relationships and think it comes down to this: it's poly if the partners think it's poly.
I consider "open relationships" a type of poly. Usually used by people who want to be poly but don't want to consider themselves part of a club or who just really, really hate mashing latin and greek roots together.
I'm not gigaexpert on this topic, but isn't this description pretty accurate?: What is the difference between polyamory and open relationships? In an open relationship, you're free to have sex with other people but stay emotionally committed to only one primary partner. In a polyamorous relationship, you're committed to loving multiple partners equally. I understand that its different for everyone, but it applies pretty well to SH and her general behaviour through earlier acts(again she denies any poly proposal even for Karlach and Astarion). I mean that she is just ok with open relationship, but shes not poly and not interested in it.
I just have enough faith in the writers' abilities to assume if they fix an entire characterization arc, they'd adjust what kinds of reactions there are to it (I expect a similar amount of work/change if they were to finish developing Karlach's quest in Act 3 instead of just leaving plot devices for it all over the floor with no way to use them). But maybe that's closer to the big ambitious hope.
I think this pretty much answers my question from before. But we still don't know if devs/writers even aware of the problem and if they are, how they are planning to address it (if at all).
Best way (IMO) would be a rewrite that would fix issues with characterization and everything else discussed in the Shadowheart and Halsin threads and (hopefully) would make both players wanting open/poly and players wanting exclusive romance happy. But it is the hardest option therefore the least likely. Second best (for SH issue at least) would be removing problematic interactions at least from monomancers playthrough and all the missing characterization then could be just headcanoned - easier, therefore more likely. Doing nothing - easiest, but many people are left unhappy, because there are issues that can be immersion breaking at best or completely ruin the experience at worst.
Oh and there is still a chance that if they will go with a rewrite they will mess up something again and we'll be back at square 1.
This is why so many people argue for removing content that they don't like. Not because they are opposed to poly representation, but because it is most likely way to resolve writing inconsistencies, ambiguity and problematic interactions.
I'm not gigaexpert on this topic, but isn't this description pretty accurate?: What is the difference between polyamory and open relationships? In an open relationship, you're free to have sex with other people but stay emotionally committed to only one primary partner. In a polyamorous relationship, you're committed to loving multiple partners equally. I understand that its different for everyone, but it applies pretty well to SH and her general behaviour through earlier acts(again she denies any poly proposal even for Karlach and Astarion).
In what world does her general behavior in act 1 and act 2 imply she's open/poly, how is that the conclusion you've come to after all that's been said and done here? And why would you even use something that proves the exact opposite as an argument for that? I don't even have to prove you wrong anymore, you're doing it yourself.
I'm not gigaexpert on this topic, but isn't this description pretty accurate?: What is the difference between polyamory and open relationships? In an open relationship, you're free to have sex with other people but stay emotionally committed to only one primary partner. In a polyamorous relationship, you're committed to loving multiple partners equally. I understand that its different for everyone, but it applies pretty well to SH and her general behaviour through earlier acts(again she denies any poly proposal even for Karlach and Astarion).
In what world does her general behavior in act 1 and act 2 imply she's open/poly, how is that the conclusion you've come to after all that's been said and done here? And why would you even use something that proves the exact opposite as an argument for that? I don't even have to prove you wrong anymore, you're doing it yourself.
I meant that she is ok with open relationship, but not interested in poly though? If that wasn't clear.
I consider "open relationships" a type of poly. Usually used by people who want to be poly but don't want to consider themselves part of a club or who just really, really hate mashing latin and greek roots together.
I'm not gigaexpert on this topic, but isn't this description pretty accurate?: What is the difference between polyamory and open relationships? In an open relationship, you're free to have sex with other people but stay emotionally committed to only one primary partner. In a polyamorous relationship, you're committed to loving multiple partners equally. I understand that its different for everyone, but it applies pretty well to SH and her general behaviour through earlier acts(again she denies any poly proposal even for Karlach and Astarion).
I think that's right, I think that was the original idea but words evolve and it's become something of a catch all. And weird dynamic emerge. I always aim for kitchen table polyamory but I dated a relationship anarchist for a number of years. Was it a poly relationship? It was our own weird thing. But "poly" works in lieu of an essay.
I meant that she is ok with open relationship, but not interested in poly though? If that wasn't clear.
But.. how do you come that conclusion? HOW is she up for an open relationship? The word poly or open is never even used in the game. You ask if she's up for ANY KIND of relationship with the other origin companions, and she says no because she wants YOU ALONE. If that somehow wasn't clear enough, then the following dialogue is: "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity."
That doesn't just refute poly. That refutes open. She does not want to share you, casual or not. Case closed.
I meant that she is ok with open relationship, but not interested in poly though? If that wasn't clear.
But.. how do you come that conclusion? HOW is she up for an open relationship? The word poly or open is never even used in the game. You ask if she's up for ANY KIND of relationship with the other origin companions, and she says no because she wants YOU ALONE. If that somehow wasn't clear enough, then the following dialogue is: "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity."
That doesn't just refute poly. That refutes open. She does not want to share you, casual or not. Case closed.
I'm just trying to justify her behaviour with all we have right now, I'm not implying this is true, because I too think that she acts out of character and I want pure monogamous relationship with her. I'm just trying to point out that she is AT BEST monogamous that ok with open relationship. Not poly.
I'm just trying to justify her behaviour with all we have right now, I'm not implying this is true, because I too think that she acts out of character and I want pure monogamous relationship with her. I'm just trying to point out that she is AT BEST monogamous that ok with open relationship. Not poly.
It's already justified. By fact that it is inconsistent, which is a completely valid - albeit very unfortunate - justification. There is no other justification to be found. She's not okay with open, and definitely not okay with poly, but Halsin isn't even poly, so there's no such thing as a poly relationship in the game anyway.
KillerRabbit, I asked you something earlier and you haven't responded. I'm hoping you will now, as I'm curious to your thoughts on this.
If you solo romance Halsin, neither he nor SH show interest in one another. You can bring Halsin to the drow twins, with SH in your party, and he doesn't ask her to join, nor does she ask to be included. Now Halsin isn't interested in an actual relationship, so he's not a primary partner or a partner at all really. So why wouldn't SH be interested joining in here if it's just casual sex between everyone?
So they don't show interest in one another when you solo romance Halsin. Yet they suddenly show interest in one another when you try to solo romance SH? Even after you've rejected Halsin earlier he asks to join in? None of this makes any sense.
Thank you counselor. The judge has ruled against you.
Thank you for proving my suspicions. I already reported you but I wasn't 100% sure until now.
I thought you were going to leave this thread? I didn't know that just meant you were going to ignore any sense of discussion while flooding it with posts about how you are poly. I would've gladly continued discussing things, but accepted you bowing out. You didn't do that, you decided to turn things petty.
KillerRabbit, I asked you something earlier and you haven't responded. I'm hoping you will now, as I'm curious to your thoughts on this.
If you solo romance Halsin, neither he nor SH show interest in one another. You can bring Halsin to the drow twins, with SH in your party, and he doesn't ask her to join, nor does she ask to be included. Now Halsin isn't interested in an actual relationship, so he's not a primary partner or a partner at all really. So why wouldn't SH be interested joining in here if it's just casual sex between everyone?
So they don't show interest in one another when you solo romance Halsin. Yet they suddenly show interest in one another when you try to solo romance SH? Even after you've rejected Halsin earlier he asks to join in? None of this makes any sense.
Same question applies regarding Astarion, and any other companion that would at that point still be interested in casual sex. Lae'zel comes to mind - she will not go through her romance character development at all, so she should be very interested in a casual fling with Tav and Shadowheart. And both of those establish quite a decent relationship toward the end, yet this is never an option. Or even Karlach, after all, she's touch starved as heck. She'll take whatever she can get, and Shadowheart is definitely into her. Perfect opportunity for a one night stand, a nice threesome. Or fivesome with the drow twins. Doesn't happen.
I'm just trying to justify her behaviour with all we have right now, I'm not implying this is true, because I too think that she acts out of character and I want pure monogamous relationship with her. I'm just trying to point out that she is AT BEST monogamous that ok with open relationship. Not poly.
It's already justified. By fact that it is inconsistent, which is a completely valid - albeit very unfortunate - justification. There is no other justification to be found. She's not okay with open, and definitely not okay with poly, but Halsin isn't even poly, so there's no such thing as a poly relationship in the game anyway.
Honestly I think we wont get whole rewrite to get fully monogamous SH. I think what I described is the best we can get probably(monogamous that ok with open relationship, if player wants it).
Honestly I think we wont get whole rewrite to get fully monogamous SH. I think what I described is the best we can get probably(monogamous that ok with open relationship, if player wants it).
If nothing changes, you don't have to twist truths to justify it. It's a story. Inconsistencies happen. There is no such thing as perfect writing. See it for what it really is: an out of character optional interaction that doesn't define her character otherwise. If you start justifying it the way you are, you'll start seeing her that way, and that'll just ruin her character for you.
That's why it's a problem in the first place. Some people struggle way more staying immersed because they try to justify it and then just see her as someone she wasn't meant to be portrayed as. Which will just make the rest of her interactions more odd again, because she's suddenly back to her old writing. But she's not a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde character, it's just a few inconsistent optional interactions in a 150 hour story.
Second best (for SH issue at least) would be removing problematic interactions
I see this as the worst thing they could do if it's the only thing that's done because I don't see the non-Halsin interactions to be problematic. Some of them aren't ideal and some of them seem intentionally written to allow individual player calls on how to contextually read them but removing them just for the few people (in general, not pointed at anyone here) essentially saying "if it isn't done in a way that I find good enough don't do it at all" would just be destructive to the player experience for people who are okay with it even in a non-ideal state.
In a bigger picture sort of way it's so rare for high-budget games to even approach these dynamics that I think it's far better for the industry at large to allow them to make a couple mistakes (again, not including Halsin in that because his is quite major) learning how to portray it appropriately than it is to just discourage trying in the first place.
A lot of the people in the Halsin thread agree that there's issues/inconsistencies with both Halsin and SH.
They should just add two new characters that are actually written as poly from the start, with nothing open to interpretation. That way people can have a healthy, consistent polyamorous experience, without stepping on anyone else's toes.
I see this as the worst thing they could do if it's the only thing that's done because I don't see the non-Halsin interactions to be problematic. Some of them aren't ideal and some of them seem intentionally written to allow individual player calls on how to contextually read them but removing them just for the few people (in general, not pointed at anyone here) essentially saying "if it isn't done in a way that I find good enough don't do it at all" would just be destructive to the player experience for people who are okay with it even in a non-ideal state.
In a bigger picture sort of way it's so rare for high-budget games to even approach these dynamics that I think it's far better for the industry at large to allow them to make a couple mistakes (again, not including Halsin in that because his is quite major) learning how to portray it appropriately than it is to just discourage trying in the first place.
I'll take a breather after this one because I've been posting a lot.
To me the issue isn't that it's been attempted, it's how it has been attempted. It should've been added from the ground up with an origin companion, not shoehorned in as optional inconsistent scenarios into the stories of companions that were already written a certain - different - way, while not having impact on said stories because that wouldn't feel right. As it stands I simply think it would take too much effort to make right, especially considering people already like the companions for who they canonically are right now, not necessarily who they would become, and it should instead be something they could add to their next game. Make it a learning experience rather than something forced to continue here and now. Of course, I have absolutely no say in any of this as this is just the opinion of a random (very opinionated) person on the internet, and they'll likely - if anything - make very minor changes at best.
But that won't stop me from enjoying discussing the topic, while having a sliver of hope that Larian is just built different than what I'm used to.
Second best (for SH issue at least) would be removing problematic interactions
I see this as the worst thing they could do if it's the only thing that's done because I don't see the non-Halsin interactions to be problematic. Some of them aren't ideal and some of them seem intentionally written to allow individual player calls on how to contextually read them but removing them just for the few people (in general, not pointed at anyone here) essentially saying "if it isn't done in a way that I find good enough don't do it at all" would just be destructive to the player experience for people who are okay with it even in a non-ideal state.
In a bigger picture sort of way it's so rare for high-budget games to even approach these dynamics that I think it's far better for the industry at large to allow them to make a couple mistakes (again, not including Halsin in that because his is quite major) learning how to portray it appropriately than it is to just discourage trying in the first place.
I personally agree with you on that only Halsin interactions are problematic, that's pretty much all I meant under "problematic interactions". Option pointed out by Netav (SH that is open for open relationship ONLY if player wants it) should work. There would still be arguments over how consistent it is over Acts 1,2,3. But at least then ultimately everyone gets what they want out of the romance story. If players want it they can open relationship. If they don't, SH won't suddenly try to open relationship (for Halsin or anyone else) on her own initiative and won't pressure players into anything.
P.S. To be clear I consider SH talking about her Halsin fantasies a part of "problematic Halsin interactions".
That's such a cheap, bandaid solution, though I'm sure it's the one they'll go with. God forbid they actually put in the time and work to provide new companions, who could actually be written as polyamorous, from the get go. People keep asking for more companions anyway, so why not do both at the same time?
No matter how you spin it, SH's behavior and dialogue are intended to be monogamous throughout her romance. She is inconsistent with the other stuff. So the only way to actually have consistent, logical writing is to either retcon her whole character and romance or scrap the other stuff with her.
They could create new companions specifically for a poly experience, if they actually cared enough to do so. But they'll take the easy way out I'm sure, if they even bother to do anything at all.
They could create new companions specifically for a poly experience, if they actually cared enough to do so. But they'll take the easy way out I'm sure, if they even bother to do anything at all.
If they did it before release then there wouldn't be any problems. But at this point even if these new characters were added in some addon/dlc/update, completely removing SH being ok with including Halsin (on players initiative) would invalidate playthroughs of some players. And players shouldn't be punished for mistakes of the devs (imo).
There have been games that have had content removed from them after release. They would have to make the new companions interesting enough to make up for it and even offer other goodies. But it can be done; it just won't be.
Now I know Larian can't write worth shit though, so I won't be buying games from them anymore.
Thank you counselor. The judge has ruled against you.
Thank you for proving my suspicions. I already reported you but I wasn't 100% sure until now.
I thought you were going to leave this thread? I didn't know that just meant you were going to ignore any sense of discussion while flooding it with posts about how you are poly. I would've gladly continued discussing things, but accepted you bowing out. You didn't do that, you decided to turn things petty.
My friend, I'm sure the mods will give your report all the attention it due. Bit of life advice: If you can't have discussion without calling for mom to bail out when you fail to persuade you should just avoid internet conversations.
I have shared your interpretation of that dialogue, you have shared yours. Your case is very, very weak.
And frankly this post confirms my theory - you are just offended by poly people. I haven't flooded anything - the fact that you think "oh my I have direct experience with this" is flooding confirms that.
Likewise, I thought you had closed your case? The judge has ruled against you. You are asking people to ignore the content of chapters 1 and 3 because of your misinterpretation of the dialogue at the end of chapter 2. Frankly, your interpretation is risible. You have imagined that you have "established" your point when you have simply repeated it ad nauseam.
Edit: I cant' comment on solo Halsin romance. I haven't tried it. Halsin doesn't interest me very much.
I haven't tried solo Halsin romance either, but many have and have commented on this in the Halsin thread. They have no reason to lie. Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean you can't comment on it. Humor me for a minute. Even if it were hypothetical, just imagine these two scenarios and do they make sense?
It looks like to me that you simply don't have anything to argue your point against when it comes to this. It doesn't fit your narrative so you simply ignore it. How convenient.
Everyone is bringing up that Shadowheart is fine with Tav cheating on her with Mizora and that is one of her ooc moments. I don't know about you guys, but to me that scene looked like she's very much not fine at all about it. I think you pretty much ignored the dialogue she has said: "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity." The second sentence is the most telling that she wants you to herself, and is not okay with an open relationship or you being poly. But with Halsin for some reason that's all forgotten about.
No, if they wanted to make a poly character and allow you to be in a poly relationship with them, they shouldn't have done it with Shadowheart. In fact, they should have made a companion (besides Halsin) specifically for this kind of thing that's explicit about it so there wouldn't be any confusion or people feeling burned by it.
But hypothetically. If you solo romance Halsin and go to the twins SH doesn't want to join? Do I have that right?
That makes sense and even seems like good writing to me.
SH is happy to explore in the context of the relationship but isn't interested in seeking out sex on her own. Once she has a secure base, once she feels love, she feels free to explore other feelings. Just like a dungeon delve - first secure a base camp and then go looking for adventure.
You snide tone isn't helping the discussion. Drop it.
One important point in favor "SH is supposed to be percieved only as mono at least in Acts 1-2"
When players actually initiate poly/open relationship with Halsin and SH they have to have a conversation with Shadowheart that can be seen in this video (timestamp 1:57)
She says it's "Bold of you to ask" in responce to player suggesting it. I am no expert, but isn't it the type of conversation that is expected for open/poly people? What is so bold about it?
A) There is clear implication somewhere in Acts 1-2 that Shadowheart is not mono. B) It is bold to ask her about including someone else.
To me it seems that statements A and B can't be true at the same time.
"Bold" comes up in romance more than once. It's one her phrases - she both likes boldness and it violates her Sharran principles. "I always had a weakness forthe confident ones . . ."
From memory:
SH What should we toast to?
Tav: to us
SH: Bold. What does "us" mean I wonder? heh. I guess we'll find out.
Many poly people tried to be mono at one time - the initial conversation does take a certain level of boldness.
But hypothetically. If you solo romance Halsin and go to the twins SH doesn't want to join? Do I have that right?
That makes sense and even seems like good writing to me.
SH is happy to explore in the context of the relationship but isn't interested in seeking out sex on her own. Once she has a secure base, once she feels love, she feels free to explore other feelings. Just like a dungeon delve - first secure a base camp and then go looking for adventure.
You snide tone isn't helping the discussion. Drop it.
And yet you say she was comfortable having casual sex with her fellow sharrans? It was never explicitly stated she was in love with someone while there. So who was it that gave her a "secure base" to explore casual sex there?
I feel like the same things are just being re-hashed and dwelled for pages and pages.
What it all comes down to is that there is an option within the game to play out your relationship with Shadowheart as an open relationship. There are three instances where this can be opened up. One is through flirting with Halsin and then asking Shadowheart if she is ok with you having a fling with Halsin. The second one is by proposing to share her with the drow twins (and Halsin if he is present) and the third is by sleeping with Mizora (though I am not sure that one really establishes that you now have an open relationship, just that she won't throw your sorry ass out the door this time). Unfortunately the option to open up my relationship with her and other characters does not exist, but we can't always have everything. None of these options are forced upon you, though there are some uncomfortable and problematic situations with Halsin, but they are more related to his character than Shadowheart. And the dialogue tree in the drow scene sometimes seems to miss a step where Tav needs to propose this first, but that only leads as far as to Shadowheart saying that she is comfortable sharing if they are, and you can establish that you aren't.
I understand how this raises ideas and thoughts around her character, but I wouldn't overthink it. The writing that follows these paths and choices is just adapted and fitted to work within those "universes". For the drow scene to work it is simply necessary to provide Shadowheart with some enthusiasm for it. I don't think there is some deep character arc involved.
As much as you can find this inconsistent with the character, that's just what it is, something you feel plays out wrong in your story. Then just re-load and change your story. I can find it inconsistent that if I support Shadowheart towards the Dark Justiciar path I will automatically raise her approval so high that she will instead choose to abandon Shar and refuse to kill Nightsong if leave the choice up to her. That's inconsistent with how I've been playing the story, why would she do that if I've been actively supporting her to stay loyal to Shar and her desire to become a dark justiciar? Well, fortunately I can re-load and just intervene with a different choice in the dialogue and make her follow my intented story.
Likewise if I've been playing the story as an exclusive relationship with Shadowheart, I find my story inconsistent if all of a sudden she wants an open relationship. Again the game kindly gives me the option to keep my story going the way I want to by allowing me to choose other options and paths (aside from the unwelcome intrusion of a certain sexcreep that has issues with consent and boundaries). My story where Tav was in an exclusive lesbian relationship with Shadowheart (where I was a bit fortunate to make certain choices that lead to certain creepy men not trying to weasel their way in not being around) was very touching and appealing. But I don't find my story ruined because some other player decided to play a pansexual Tav that had an open relationship with Shadowheart.
Spending page after page just reiterating your thoughts around this and jumping down the throat on anyone who comes in and gives another opinion and perspective, does not seem productive or worth anyone's time really.
Halsin's writing and how he behaves in an unacceptable and very problematic way is a discussion that I think pertains more to him than Shadowheart, though she has a minor part in it with how the drow scene is scripted.
Only makes sense... If you ignore things she said that make her more monogamous than anything (which honestly seems like you have, read my post in page 45 for more detail). If they wanted to include a poly relationship in the game, it shouldn't have been with Shadowheart and instead they should have made a character that's explicit about it with no room for misinterpretation.
Replay the conversation From her tone it's not clear she enjoyed those encounters or would have engaged in them without Viconia's encouragement.
So it could be character development - she's gone from someone who has casual sex to someone who is in a loving relationship with a supportive tav. sex workers and horny druids are just the frosting on the cake.
Only makes sense... If you ignore things she said that make her more monogamous than anything (which honestly seems like you have, read my post in page 45 for more detail). If they wanted to include a poly relationship in the game, it shouldn't have been with Shadowheart and instead they should have made a character that's explicit about it with no room for misinterpretation.
can you post it here? On page 45 of the Halsin thread I see something from portionbeans which seems to be based on a misunderstanding of poly relations but I don't see your post.
So her excuse for being okay with Tav cheating on her is entirely dependent on encounters she never enjoyed or wanted to begin with? You're not really doing anything for your case here.
If she didn't like or want the casual sex and was prohibited from having an actual relationship, it only makes more sense she would choose monogamy with Tav.
Sorry, I wrote the wrong number. It's page 44. But here's the whole thing:
Everyone is bringing up that Shadowheart is fine with Tav cheating on her with Mizora and that is one of her ooc moments. I don't know about you guys, but to me that scene looked like she's very much not fine at all about it. I think you pretty much ignored the dialogue she has said: "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity." The second sentence is the most telling that she wants you to herself, and is not okay with an open relationship or you being poly. But with Halsin for some reason that's all forgotten about.
No, if they wanted to make a poly character and allow you to be in a poly relationship with them, they shouldn't have done it with Shadowheart. In fact, they should have made a companion (besides Halsin) specifically for this kind of thing that's explicit about it so there wouldn't be any confusion or people feeling burned by it.
So her excuse for being okay with Tav cheating on her is entirely dependent on encounters she never enjoyed or wanted to begin with? You're not really doing anything for your case here.
If she didn't like or want the casual sex and was prohibited from having an actual relationship, it only makes more sense she would choose monogamy with Tav.
Truth be told I'm not making a 'case'. My position is indisputable. SH dates more than one person at a time - you can like that or not but it just IS. I'm just getting at the why of it.
Tav cheated, she let her know that it would have been okay if she had just asked. Which is a pretty generous response and, yes, this is a *very* poly conversation. Cheating can happen in a poly relationship - poly is not free pass.
Why would she engage in casual sex if she doesn't want or enjoy it though? Why would she encourage Tav to do it either if she doesn't consider it to be a good experience, but merely something she was "trained" for?
She also implies in this convo that she never wanted a swan. Yet in another conversation, while breaking up with you over Karlach, if Tav says they aren't a swan and they want to be with them both, Shadowheart rejects you. So which is it? Does she want a swan or not? Because two different conversations contradict one another. SH has even shown attraction to Karlach, so why not join a poly relationship then?
And where does SH date more than one person at a time? Who else does she date?
Ehhh also makes a solid point: "I would always want more of you than you'd have to spare" is a done deal. This right here is the icing on the cake.
My guess? Timing matters. The swan conversation come right after SH decides she wants a relationship. The cheating happens some time later. I've only seen it on youtube but it possible that Tav helped her rescue her parents and got the Viconia off her trail.
The relation is stronger at the cheating point. The swan line is a bit cringe but it seems an insightful exchange - seeing Tav cheat on her with a devil is likely to push SH back towards Shar and so memories of life the cloister return. If Tav is smart she will try and heal the wound the cheating inflicted.
SH is being generous but she's feeling hurt. Tav should have asked and should have chosen a different partner.
edit: obvs she flirts with and sleeps with Halsin. That's what we're discussing, right?
Only makes sense... If you ignore things she said that make her more monogamous than anything (which honestly seems like you have, read my post in page 45 for more detail). If they wanted to include a poly relationship in the game, it shouldn't have been with Shadowheart and instead they should have made a character that's explicit about it with no room for misinterpretation.
papercut was in the conversation before you made your account, making basically the same point as now. The dialogue choices pending on the player allow reading the character either way. It's up to the player to determine that. Not every player is going to agree with you, and that's okay. Imposing an opinion about a contextual reading on other players, or demanding that the ability to read the character that way by having the existing choices and interactions that support the read removed from those players for the sake of what amounts to a minor inconvenience due to a personally perceived inconsistency (which I will continue saying as not every player sees it as inconsistent, like myself) about choices that you sound like you'll never personally make is kinda just unnecessary. Cuz as I said, you can absolutely read her the way you're saying... if you don't pursue anything non-monogamous. And the ability to pursue that does absolutely currently exist and can be established as part of the relationship for a Tav that goes that route.
Sure it'd be nice to have even more characters with even more variety to them but as the game is it would've just been (and would still be) better to develop the concept more and not pin the lion's share of it on one redundant druid with some really toxic behavior. For all we know Shadowheart had things like the Mizora reaction and drow twins reactivity before Halsin was upgraded to be a companion, and if so therefor may always have been intended to at least be comfortable opening the relationship if a player pursues that. We have no way of knowing but given the dissonance between her interactions without Halsin compared to with Halsin I lean in the direction that Halsin was tacked onto something that already existed. But whether it exists or not should not affect how you read the character if you're not going to ever make those choices. The choices exist for the people that will make them. The writing could have been better, certainly. But I think we all just enjoy what IS there so much that we want perfection even when it isn't reasonable to expect it.
Speaking of misinterpreting, I personally didn't see anyone imply Shadowheart is okay with Tav cheating with Mizora because she is very clearly scolding you for it. She's being very forgiving of it, but certainly did not appreciate it being done behind her back. That's not being okay with it. But the scene does then serve to develop her character further based on the choice of having done it while in a Shadowheart romance. Whether a player accepts that development is again entirely personal to the individual who makes the choice leading to it and the people who most want these interactions to be gone were never going to make those choices to begin with anyway (unless they're lying on the internet), so their Shadowhearts remain entirely unaffected by them regardless, meaning there's not much of a compelling reason to damage the experience for the players that do make those choices.
Halsin is the exception to all this specifically because if he's in the party his behavior and reactivity to him circumvents all that, which is why Halsin (and reactivity to him) is the one in need of adjusting.
No one, who isn't monogamous, would say "I would always want more of you than you'd have to spare." And there's nothing in all of act 1 or 2 to engage in anything other than monogamy with her because she always shuts the idea down.
This is how her writing is established, to do a 180 so suddenly in act 3 is bad writing period. We all know the only reason they made SH into it is because she's a hot half elf and they needed to add some porn. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking it's anything more than that lol
The key line around everything really is: "I am comfortable sharing, if you are."
That really establishes and allows for so much.
Is she happy to stay in a committed exclusive relationship with Tav if that is what Tav wants? Yes
Is she initiating and pushing for them to have other partners? No, but if Tav wants it she is ok with it.
Is she expressing anything to suggest she would cheat on Tav or do anything behind their back? No.
Does she assume that her relationship with Tav is, or should be, an open or poly relationship. No, not until Tav initiates things and communicates that they want this.
I can't really find anything questionable, dishonest or inconsiderate in her behaviour or approach here. Apart from when she expresses disapproval around a sexual encounter that Tav isn't comfortable with. She should respect Tav's feelings there, regardless of the circumstances around it. We shouldn't show disappointment towards our partners around their sexual boundaries and comfort.
I don’t think I’ve said it for a while, so here’s your regular reminder that it’s okay to agree to disagree. It’s clear that no amount of discussion here is going to result in everyone thinking the same thing about this element of Shadowheart’s romance, and that’s fine.
But please recognise when you have made your point and don’t just keep reiterating it again and again, just because others don’t agree, and please respect others’ rights to hold and express views other than your own.
But her saying that after she has already stated "I would always want more of you than you'd have to spare" is contradictory. First she says she doesn't want to share, then she conveniently is okay with it when it comes to Halsin, etc. It's shitty writing, through and through.
Red Queen, I'm not sure if ppl are seeing my posts or something. I feel I have to reiterate because it's like mine are ignored and not taken into consideration often. But yes, we can agree to disagree in here.
She doesn't want to simply share wine and convo with the others because she wants Tav to herself. With the others it would simply be only wine/convo, nothing romantic like it is with Tav alone. She didn't want it to be a group hangout.
A primary partner would still have to be shared. She says she would always want more than you'd have to spare, which means she wants your full attention.
Honestly, I don't think that this is the kind of thing I can ignore now that I know about it. I'll try to explain how I came across all of this. I played the game with Shadowheart as the only companion I actively tried romancing. I thought it was great, the slow build up was nice and I thought it felt rewarding. I was randomly scrolling through the feedback threads on Discord and found out that people weren't satisfied with Halsin. Then I found this on Reddit:
Not long after that I found the orgy scene on Youtube. Basically implied that you and the drow twins watched Shadowheart and Halsin go at it. Again, I can't forget that kind of thing. Her romance dialogue points towards her being interested in you and only you and not being okay with an open/poly relationship. The fact she's suddenly turning 180 degrees for Halsin or becomes interested in a foursome is jarring and the fact that this thread exists at all with it probably being at least top 5 in terms of popularity here speaks for itself.
She doesn't want to simply share wine and convo with the others because she wants Tav to herself. With the others it would simply be only wine/convo, nothing romantic like it is with Tav alone. She didn't want it to be a group hangout.
"Not tonight" suggest openness to the idea in the future. Think about it would you say "not tonight" to something you were dead set against? "excuse me, would you like to drink some sewer water"? "oh, not tonight" (said no one ever)
Quote
A primary partner would still have to be shared. She says she would always want more than you'd have to spare, which means she wants your full attention.
Which I read to mean - I want the lion's share of attention. Which she does get in a poly relationship with Tav.
I agree with what @papercut_ninja and @Auric have said here
"Not tonight" suggest openness to the idea in the future. Think about it would you say "not tonight" to something you were dead set against? "excuse me, would you like to drink some sewer water"? "oh, not tonight" (said no one ever)
It also can be interpreted as "Tonight I want to have a drink only with you, because I want to be more intimate, only between us. We might share friendly drinks with others some other time."
Why is your interpretation more accurate than mine?
Her saying she'd always want more than you'd have to spare means it would never be enough for her. She would always want more, including more than the lions share. She would want everything.
I agree with Frog. I've always interpreted it as Tav being oblivious to Shadowheart's clear invitation for a romantice date. It's like if a person who secretly likes you invites you to a bar and your reply is "That sounds fun, mind if I bring a few friends along?" and they're gonna be like, "Uhm, maybe another time, I want to drink with you and you alone."
Why is your interpretation more accurate than mine?
It isn't. Both are equally valid because both are a result of an individual's own thoughts on the matter. But a few people continue being vocal about how they want interactions that support a non-monogamous interpretation removed wholesale, while the people who interpret it that way are kinda just here to be like no reading it the other way is fine and valid please don't simply remove it entirely, it'd be cooler to improve on it.
Originally Posted by Ehhhh123
in terms of popularity here speaks for itself.
The thread is so active because of the constant argument caused by the premise, not necessarily the premise itself. We all got invested in one aspect of the character/romance or another and are arguing from a place of that enjoyment. And the one point we (mostly) all agree on is what you just emphasized: the problems with Halsin.
It isn't. Both are equally valid because both are a result of an individual's own thoughts on the matter. But a few people continue being vocal about how they want interactions that support a non-monogamous interpretation removed wholesale, while the people who interpret it that way are kinda just here to be like no reading it the other way is fine and valid please don't simply remove it entirely, it'd be cooler to improve on it.
Oh, my bad then. I must have misread it as implying that was a canon set in stone. My apologies.
I think it likely comes down to some people understanding proper writing procedure better than some others. I mean simply typing in "writing inconsistent characters" in Google you get:
"One of the fastest ways to lose your readers and credibility as a writer is to create a story in which the characters are inconsistent."
I recommend learning more about writing practice, even readers have a lot to gain from the knowledge.
Anyway, I'm only reacting to SH's inconsistency the way it's as expected as an audience member in this situation. I have lost my "suspension of disbelief" because the writers did a poor job on act 3. This thread is here because others have also lost this suspension of disbelief. Had they foreshadowed better and done the work to convey her in a consistent manner then this thread wouldn't exist.
I don't know, it has a ton of views and replies. So I have at least a slight bit of hope that this topic would be addressed. But still, this whole thing kind of makes me feel like dirt if Im gonna be honest. I know it's a game, but I still hate this feeling.
SH is being generous but she's feeling hurt. Tav should have asked and should have chosen a different partner.
edit: obvs she flirts with and sleeps with Halsin. That's what we're discussing, right?
She doesn't do anything in game though and it is not implied. Again, she denies any poly proposal from player with Karlach(she's attracted to her at least) or Astarion. But she is ok with an idea of having casual sex without any hard feelings(or relationship). Doesn't that mean that she is ok with an open relationship, but not poly(she wants Tav for herself)?
SH is happy to explore in the context of the relationship but isn't interested in seeking out sex on her own. Once she has a secure base, once she feels love, she feels free to explore other feelings. Just like a dungeon delve - first secure a base camp and then go looking for adventure.
This conclusion comes from absolutely nothing more than your mind, and is instantly refuted because the only person she seems okay with to have such a relationship is with Halsin, while shutting down all 5 other companions in the exact same scenario, for absolutely no explained reason at all.
Originally Posted by Frog001
She says it's "Bold of you to ask" in responce to player suggesting it..
It is considered "Bold to ask" here because it completely and utterly ignores the fact that it has been asked 5 times prior already, where it was apparently not bold to ask. This means it ignored 5 counts of headcanon character progression. The very definition of an inconsistency.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
1. She didn't rule out sharing in the wine conversation. Just not tonight. And that was written almost 3 years in patch 1
and
Originally Posted by Auric
It isn't. Both are equally valid because both are a result of an individual's own thoughts on the matter. But a few people continue being vocal about how they want interactions that support a non-monogamous interpretation removed wholesale, while the people who interpret it that way are kinda just here to be like no reading it the other way is fine and valid please don't simply remove it entirely, it'd be cooler to improve on it.
Lets assume she indeed seemed more open to sharing in act 1 based on this conversation, because it's up to interpretation. You did not yet have an active romance with her at this point, so she is not in love with you yet, just attracted to you. Throughout act 1, she starts falling in love with you. Her character starts changing based on this. This changes entirely in act 2, where you get the opportunity to take the relationship to the next level. In act 2, the dialogue makes it clear she went through the needed character development that turns her into mono, because while during the act 1 dialogue she says "not tonight", in act 2 she will shut down any such attempt instead, because she's no longer just attracted to you but in love with you. After act 2, she is no longer open to sharing. You can't ignore character development, which is what you are doing.
If a character is written to slap people in act 1, and they lose their arm in act 2, you can't write that they slap people again in act 3 without explaining how they got their arm back, but instead with the argument that they did it in act 1. That's not how these things work, and that's exactly what happened here.
I mean why would you even argue... She just DENIES any poly proposal attempt in act 2. I just don't get it, it's not headcannon or anything, it's what she does. And no, it's not because she "cares" about others being mono, she denies Karlach AND Astarion aswell. Again AT BEST you can argue that she is ok with an open relationship(and treat Halsin no more than a fling). Or it's just inconsistency to let Halsin be the way he is right now in the game.
I mean why would you even argue... She just DENIES any poly proposal attempt in act 2? I just don't get it, it's not headcannon or anything, it's what she does. And no, it's not because she "cares" about others being mono, she denies Karlach AND Astarion aswell. Again AT BEST you can argue that she is ok with open relationship(and treat Halsin no more than a fling). Or it's just inconsistency to let Halsin be the way he is right now in the game.
Precisely. And if the Halsin thing is to be considered as no more than a fling, then three things need to happen: 1. Allow you to ask for the same regarding other companions 2. Make it clear as day that this is what it is intended to be seen as 3. Explain why she is okay with it in the first place, so that she can develop past her dialogue in act 2 where she makes it clear she wouldn't be up for that
They did none of the above. Instead, they wrote that it is "bold to ask", something that was not the case in all 5 scenarios regarding the same question in act 2.
Until rewrites, it's nothing more than an inconsistency that ignores the rest of her dialogues ever happened.
Speaking of misinterpreting, I personally didn't see anyone imply Shadowheart is okay with Tav cheating with Mizora because she is very clearly scolding you for it. She's being very forgiving of it, but certainly did not appreciate it being done behind her back. That's not being okay with it. But the scene does then serve to develop her character further based on the choice of having done it while in a Shadowheart romance. Whether a player accepts that development is again entirely personal to the individual who makes the choice leading to it and the people who most want these interactions to be gone were never going to make those choices to begin with anyway (unless they're lying on the internet), so their Shadowhearts remain entirely unaffected by them regardless, meaning there's not much of a compelling reason to damage the experience for the players that do make those choices.
I'm the person who considered her being okay with it. I continue being that person. The only thing she doesn't seem okay with is you not asking prior. And I think her implication that she isn't surprised that you would cheat 'because she didn't bed a swan' comes completely out of left field. She abandoned Shar for you and devotes herself entirely to you at that point. It just doesn't make sense she isn't surprised you'd not return that devotion. Especially considering that when you break up with her, her reaction is a lot more emotionally charged than that of at least Wyll and Karlach. Because of that, I was expecting a similarly emotionally charged reply to her finding out you cheated, instead of the beyond-forgiving nature of the reply you get right now, where you can basically say you'll do it again, and she simply says "just don't forget about my needs yeah?".
No, I do not actually plan on going through that dialogue ever again (well, I will, F5 -> F8 when romancing other companions to see their replies, I know most of those do stay in character). I don't roleplay those type of characters, but I just dislike inconsistent writing regardless. If I were to give her over to Viconia just to see what her reply would be, I would be annoyed if she said "Haha, this was my master plan all along together with Viconia!" and then fights you with her. No, I will not choose this dialogue option canonically in my playthrough, but the lingering idea that this is what could have happened is still there.
Edits below: Very late edit, but I have a better example of what I mean. Lets say you break up with her and instead of the emotionally charged reply you get now, she'll say "I was kind of planning on doing that anyway". We know she doesn't ever do this. But the IDEA that she was supposedly planning on doing so would still be there. That will kill immersion, because it's completely out of character. I see the Mizora chat as a less severe version of this.
That doesn't mean I'm not okay with "bad outcomes" or anything like that. It's not like I don't know what happens if you let her kill the Nightsong, for example. But that doesn't give a similar bad lingering feeling, because it's a perfectly logical outcome. It's completely in character for her to halt the romance at that point.
Either way, it's not even remotely as bad as the Halsin situation, and if they don't change that or the drows (foursome version) at all, but do change Halsin's scenario, I would be more than content regardless. But it is in my fields of expertise to point out all the potential problems, with the hope that at least one gets acknowledged.
Honestly, I don't think that this is the kind of thing I can ignore now that I know about it. I'll try to explain how I came across all of this. I played the game with Shadowheart as the only companion I actively tried romancing. I thought it was great, the slow build up was nice and I thought it felt rewarding. I was randomly scrolling through the feedback threads on Discord and found out that people weren't satisfied with Halsin. Then I found this on Reddit:
Not long after that I found the orgy scene on Youtube. Basically implied that you and the drow twins watched Shadowheart and Halsin go at it. Again, I can't forget that kind of thing. Her romance dialogue points towards her being interested in you and only you and not being okay with an open/poly relationship. The fact she's suddenly turning 180 degrees for Halsin or becomes interested in a foursome is jarring and the fact that this thread exists at all with it probably being at least top 5 in terms of popularity here speaks for itself.
If you can't shake that thought, you can always just get rid of Halsin entirely (thus making it impossible to happen, even "off screen"), and remember that during the orgy, she seems quite displeased with the performances, considering she actively pushes you to join in. Your Tav is apparently better than the 350 year old heavily experienced fuckboy. Might have something to do with all the necrophilia you went through as Dark Urge...
But most importantly, just remember nothing actually happens, because even in these optional moments it's not implied to happen (except the fivesome itself, of course). It's just in your mind because of some inconsistent writing.
I don't know, it has a ton of views and replies. So I have at least a slight bit of hope that this topic would be addressed. But still, this whole thing kind of makes me feel like dirt if Im gonna be honest. I know it's a game, but I still hate this feeling.
As things get longer more people take a look. But - to put this as kindly as possible - that isn't a measure of quality. I came here because of the length of thread and was shocked to find a small number of people who post very often have somehow convinced themselves the poly romance partner is - deep in her heart - a monogamist. But the argument just doesn't hold up.
Originally Posted by Netav
Again, she denies any poly proposal from player with Karlach(she's attracted to her at least) or Astarion. But she is ok with an idea of having casual sex without any hard feelings(or relationship). Doesn't that mean that she is ok with an open relationship, but not poly(she wants Tav for herself)?
Here's a good article that lists was people think of primary partners / nesting paryners / anchor partners. As Tav likes to say "first in my heart". SH wants to be first in Tav's heart:
And using the terms in that list she feels hurt and jealousy with Mizora but compersion when Tav asks about being with Halsin. To me this seems a very consistent poly principle - ask first, not asking is cheating.
Now you are on to something that SH's desire to "first in Tav's heart" is so strong she might qualify as monogomish*. She only wants Tav to be with people who won't threaten her primary relationship. Karlach is a threat, Halsin is not. Note that she also says no to the twins if she and Tav haven't had sex by themselves first. She wants to establish base camp and then go exploring.
* (and if you start doing some research your will *hundreds* other terms
Here's a good article that lists was people think of primary partners / nesting paryners / anchor partners. As Tav likes to say "first in my heart". SH wants to be first in Tav's heart:
And using the terms in that list she feels hurt and jealousy with Mizora but compersion when Tav asks about being with Halsin. To me this seems a very consistent poly principle - ask first, not asking is cheating.
Now you are on to something that SH's desire to "first in Tav's heart" is so strong she might qualify as monogomish*. She only wants Tav to be with people who won't threaten her primary relationship. Karlach is a threat, Halsin is not. Note that she also says no to the twins if she and Tav haven't had sex by themselves first. She wants to establish base camp and then go exploring.
* (and if you start doing some research your will *hundreds* other terms
Hold up, she straight up says no to every proposal, how the hell do you know who she sees "threatening"? Sounds like headcannon. She just says no and thats it, even no to those who she finds attractive or to those who you would describe "poly" or "open". She even knows that Karlach is doomed and attracted to her, but she still says no. Not to mention what she says if you propose Wyll("In fact I don't want to be your spare lover"). And what the hell is that drow convo argument? You can sleep early with Laezel while being in "starting" relationship with SH and she won't say a word.
Lets summarize what we have about poly/mono things in act 1-2: 1.)She shows NO interest in poly relationship if asked directly. Thats just it, stop trying to headcanon anything. 2.)She is flirty but won't sleep with others if not romanced/shows no interest at others. 3.)The only indication that you can classify as "poly" - at tiefling party where she says "not today" if you ask her about sharing a bottle with all friends. But, I may be dumb, how the hell you came into this conclussion. I even rewatched this scene and it's just blatant that she wants you 1v1 and it's funny dialogue choice to play dumb? It doesn't even end with sex or anything.
SH is happy to explore in the context of the relationship but isn't interested in seeking out sex on her own. Once she has a secure base, once she feels love, she feels free to explore other feelings. Just like a dungeon delve - first secure a base camp and then go looking for adventure.
This conclusion comes from absolutely nothing more than your mind, and is instantly refuted because the only person she seems okay with to have such a relationship is with Halsin, while shutting down all 5 other companions in the exact same scenario, for absolutely no explained reason at all.
That's not true or only true in the way that we are both interpreting the same material. And the evidence is on my side. SH is happy to have more than one partner. For some reason you think that's the anomaly despite it being hinted at in chapter 1 and confirmed in chapter 3. You have one camp conversation - that you misinterpret - and I have most of chapter 3. So if you want place our evidence on each on side of the scale . . .
Would I like it be changed to make it clearer that SH wants to be the primary partner -- the pattern she shows in Chapter 3 -- yes. Do I think this is a more urgent ask than changing the end game? Absolutely not. Again, I'm suprised that a small handful of highly vocal people feel so strongly about this issue.
I just remembered this - in EA she flirts with Wyll. This was changed in the final release. Wyll talks about a fight with a minotaur in EA she expresses an interest in seeing the scars, in the final she says she doesn't want to see them.
Quote
Lets assume she indeed seemed more open to sharing in act 1 based on this conversation, because it's up to interpretation. You did not yet have an active romance with her at this point, so she is not in love with you yet, just attracted to you. Throughout act 1, she starts falling in love with you. Her character starts changing based on this. This changes entirely in act 2, where you get the opportunity to take the relationship to the next level. In act 2, the dialogue makes it clear she went through the needed character development that turns her into mono, because while during the act 1 dialogue she says "not tonight", in act 2 she will shut down any such attempt instead, because she's no longer just attracted to you but in love with you. After act 2, she is no longer open to sharing. You can't ignore character development, which is what you are doing.
This is really key. And I think it is at the heart of your misunderstanding of poly relationships. Poly relationships are loving relationships. Reread that last sentence.
You are working on the implicit assumption that a move from attraction to love is a desire for exclusivity, that love expresses itself as a desire for monogamy. Now I do think you are correct that SH is changing but I think she is discovering that she wants a nesting partner - house in country, parents nearby - but also some fun at the local druid grove from time to time.
She says to no multiple partners at the very start of the loving relationship but then opens to it when Tav suggests it. Note that she says no to hiring sex workers if she and Tav haven't had sex by themselves yes. Again, establish base camp before exploring.
Quote
If a character is written to slap people in act 1, and they lose their arm in act 2, you can't write that they slap people again in act 3 without explaining how they got their arm back, but instead with the argument that they did it in act 1. That's not how these things work, and that's exactly what happened here.
This made me giggle a little bit, thanks It's the forgotten realms, rings of regeneration exist, she grew her arm back. But seriously it's a nesting story once she has built her nest she feels free to fly. Or, to use the metaphor in the game, she needs Tav to teach her how to swim before he is ready to go to party at the swimming hole.
I don't know, it has a ton of views and replies. So I have at least a slight bit of hope that this topic would be addressed. But still, this whole thing kind of makes me feel like dirt if Im gonna be honest. I know it's a game, but I still hate this feeling.
As things get longer more people take a look. But - to put this as kindly as possible - that isn't a measure of quality. I came here because of the length of thread and was shocked to find a small number of people who post very often have somehow convinced themselves the poly romance partner is - deep in her heart - a monogamist. But the argument just doesn't hold up.
Originally Posted by Netav
Again, she denies any poly proposal from player with Karlach(she's attracted to her at least) or Astarion. But she is ok with an idea of having casual sex without any hard feelings(or relationship). Doesn't that mean that she is ok with an open relationship, but not poly(she wants Tav for herself)?
Here's a good article that lists was people think of primary partners / nesting paryners / anchor partners. As Tav likes to say "first in my heart". SH wants to be first in Tav's heart:
And using the terms in that list she feels hurt and jealousy with Mizora but compersion when Tav asks about being with Halsin. To me this seems a very consistent poly principle - ask first, not asking is cheating.
Now you are on to something that SH's desire to "first in Tav's heart" is so strong she might qualify as monogomish*. She only wants Tav to be with people who won't threaten her primary relationship. Karlach is a threat, Halsin is not. Note that she also says no to the twins if she and Tav haven't had sex by themselves first. She wants to establish base camp and then go exploring.
* (and if you start doing some research your will *hundreds* other terms
Why do you keep ignoring every instance of her rejecting poly and being mono herself, and pushing your own headcanon based on ONE instance at the start of the game? All while linking some obscure articles irrelevant to the conversation.
I don't know, it has a ton of views and replies. So I have at least a slight bit of hope that this topic would be addressed. But still, this whole thing kind of makes me feel like dirt if Im gonna be honest. I know it's a game, but I still hate this feeling.
As things get longer more people take a look. But - to put this as kindly as possible - that isn't a measure of quality. I came here because of the length of thread and was shocked to find a small number of people who post very often have somehow convinced themselves the poly romance partner is - deep in her heart - a monogamist. But the argument just doesn't hold up.
Originally Posted by Netav
Again, she denies any poly proposal from player with Karlach(she's attracted to her at least) or Astarion. But she is ok with an idea of having casual sex without any hard feelings(or relationship). Doesn't that mean that she is ok with an open relationship, but not poly(she wants Tav for herself)?
Here's a good article that lists was people think of primary partners / nesting paryners / anchor partners. As Tav likes to say "first in my heart". SH wants to be first in Tav's heart:
And using the terms in that list she feels hurt and jealousy with Mizora but compersion when Tav asks about being with Halsin. To me this seems a very consistent poly principle - ask first, not asking is cheating.
Now you are on to something that SH's desire to "first in Tav's heart" is so strong she might qualify as monogomish*. She only wants Tav to be with people who won't threaten her primary relationship. Karlach is a threat, Halsin is not. Note that she also says no to the twins if she and Tav haven't had sex by themselves first. She wants to establish base camp and then go exploring.
* (and if you start doing some research your will *hundreds* other terms
Why do you keep ignoring every instance of her rejecting poly and being mono herself, and pushing your own headcanon based on ONE instance at the start of the game? All while linking some obscure articles irrelevant to the conversation.
She literally rejects every poly proposal in act 2. All 5 options. Thats not headcanon. Headcanon here is only that you assume she rejects it ONLY because she feels threatened to not be first in Tav's heart. Karlach for example is doomed and SH herself shows attraction to her in act 1. All you have for "poly" evidence is her tiefling party line, where in order to make her say it - you have to play dumb, and make weird, not obvious interpretation there.
I don't know, it has a ton of views and replies. So I have at least a slight bit of hope that this topic would be addressed. But still, this whole thing kind of makes me feel like dirt if Im gonna be honest. I know it's a game, but I still hate this feeling.
As things get longer more people take a look. But - to put this as kindly as possible - that isn't a measure of quality. I came here because of the length of thread and was shocked to find a small number of people who post very often have somehow convinced themselves the poly romance partner is - deep in her heart - a monogamist. But the argument just doesn't hold up.
Originally Posted by Netav
Again, she denies any poly proposal from player with Karlach(she's attracted to her at least) or Astarion. But she is ok with an idea of having casual sex without any hard feelings(or relationship). Doesn't that mean that she is ok with an open relationship, but not poly(she wants Tav for herself)?
Here's a good article that lists was people think of primary partners / nesting paryners / anchor partners. As Tav likes to say "first in my heart". SH wants to be first in Tav's heart:
And using the terms in that list she feels hurt and jealousy with Mizora but compersion when Tav asks about being with Halsin. To me this seems a very consistent poly principle - ask first, not asking is cheating.
Now you are on to something that SH's desire to "first in Tav's heart" is so strong she might qualify as monogomish*. She only wants Tav to be with people who won't threaten her primary relationship. Karlach is a threat, Halsin is not. Note that she also says no to the twins if she and Tav haven't had sex by themselves first. She wants to establish base camp and then go exploring.
* (and if you start doing some research your will *hundreds* other terms
But...it's not? Like, just reading through this and I have to say something here because it seems to me that you are reading WAY into what isn't there. For example, the whole 'primary' thing. There is no negotiation there. She isn't setting boundaries, expectations or ultimatums in that conversation because the context is her offering to break it off entirely when the subject is brought up at all. Saying she just wants to be the primary in a poly arrangement, when she doesn't even try to do just that, doesn't hold water at all.
The second issue is you taking poorly written out-of-character moments as not being poorly written OOC moments. The same thing can be seen in the characterization of the Emperor, where if you are trusting or suspicious, the game will always prove you right. Even if you flip flop between conversations, exposing the lack of coherency. SH suffers from the same thing, such as making a quip about relationship drama to my Durge, conveniently forgetting her prior experience with relationships (little) and the fact that she has amnesia. Starting the romance she tells you casual flings aren't a Sharran thing, but if and only if you cheat does she pull a 180 and say the exact opposite. This is not a reflection of her being interested in open or poly, it's the writer bending over backward to 'justify' the player's romantic decisions.
Third is, while you can make an argument for an alternate interpretation of one thing, it does not happen in a vacuum. Further developments and additional context should inform of your interpretation of that first thing, not the other way around, especially when it starts not making a lot of sense or starts reaching.
Lets summarize what we have about poly/mono things in act 1-2: 1.)She shows NO interest in poly relationship if asked directly. Thats just it, stop trying to headcanon anything. 2.)She is flirty but won't sleep with others if not romanced/shows no interest at others. 3.)The only indication that you can classify as "poly" - at tiefling party where she says "not today" if you ask her about sharing a bottle with all friends. But, I may be dumb, how the hell you came into this conclussion. I even rewatched this scene and it's just blatant that she wants you 1v1 and it's funny dialogue choice to play dumb? It doesn't even end with sex or anything.
Lol. We're both "headcannoning" here. We have different interpretations of the party conversation - I don't think it's playing dumb I think it's being playful. We don't see Tav's facial expression but I imagined that Tav was trying to suppress a grin when asking "just a bottle"?
This is what flirting looks like. You are talking about sex and relationships while ostensibly talking about wine.
She literally rejects every poly proposal in act 2. All 5 options. Thats not headcanon. Headcanon here is only that you assume she rejects it ONLY because she feels threatened to not be first in Tav's heart. Karlach for example is doomed and SH herself shows attraction to her in act 1. All you have for "poly" evidence is her tiefling party line, where in order to make her say it - you have to play dumb, and make weird, not obvious interpretation there.
I'm sorry to see you change from a productive, conversational tone to confrontational one. I would ask you to change your tone.
Did you read the article I sent? I think you make some good points but that the nesting partner or monogamish is the better interpretation.
Do I have to repeat myself? You are just trying to headcanon there for some reason. She just rejects every poly proposal. She never says anything about "being threatened", thats just your headcanon here. The fact there is that she REJECTS them, even with Karlach, even after she flirted with all of them(if thats inportant for you). You really don't need more proofs. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just see you ignoring that fact.
Do I have to repeat myself? You are just trying to headcanon there for some reason. She just rejects every poly proposal. She never says anything about "being threatened", thats just your headcanon here. The fact there is that she REJECTS them, even with Karlach, even after she flirted with all of them(if thats inportant for you). You really don't need more proofs. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just see you ignoring that fact.
I have seen people make that claim in the thread more than once. I think you are projecting. You are accusing me of your crime. You are headcannoning and finding others guilty.
Since I am bit annoyed I'll be blunt - I think your reading of the party event is shallow and your seem incapable of understanding nuance and are demonstrating an inability to read subtext. All forgivable sins if your weren't presenting your headcannon as the obvious interpretation.
This is life advice here: replay the wine conversation but just experiment with the idea that there are layers of meaning to the conversation. "Just a bottle" is playful. Sh response "it's quite a bottle" is simultaneously playful, a barb and a demand for respect "don't underestimate the quality of this vintage - I'm not offering you a cheap merlot"
Second time today: please, everyone, respect others’ rights to hold and express views other than your own.
And in response to a question asked above, no, no one needs to repeat themselves. If they find themselves doing so, then that indicates they’ve already made their point of view clear and it’s time to agree to disagree.
Cool, we ignored main argument again I guess. Wine dialogue is that she only say's "not today", both side can headcanon this I agree, alright.
Can you tell me what I am "headcanoning" in her poly proposal rejects though? She just says no. "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare."
*Ahem* (We were possibly posting at the same time.)
Originally Posted by The Red Queen
Second time today: please, everyone, respect others’ rights to hold and express views other than your own.
And in response to a question asked above, no, no one needs to repeat themselves. If they find themselves doing so, then that indicates they’ve already made their point of view clear and it’s time to agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by Netav
Cool, we ignored main argument again I guess. Wine dialogue is that she only say's "not today", both side can headcanon this I agree, alright.
Can you tell me what I am "headcanoning" in her poly proposal rejects though? She just says no. "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare."
Cool, we ignored main argument again I guess. Wine dialogue is that she only say's "not today", both side can headcanon this I agree, alright.
Can you tell me what I am "headcanoning" in her poly proposal rejects though? She just says no. "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare."
As I've said repeatedly. That interpretation of the words is not inconsistent with a desire to be a primary parter / nesting partner / ect.
You may not like my interpretation but I have responded to that point repeatedly. I think you have shallow reading of the conversation and that my interpretation is consistent with the options in chapter 3 while yours are not. Which is the point of this thread. A small number of high engaged people would like to see their interpretation of SH be the only one.
Cool, we ignored main argument again I guess. Wine dialogue is that she only say's "not today", both side can headcanon this I agree, alright.
Can you tell me what I am "headcanoning" in her poly proposal rejects though? She just says no. "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare."
As I've said repeated. That interpretation of the words is not inconsistent with a desire to be a primary parter / nesting partner / ect.
You may not like my interpretation but I have responded to that point repeatedly. I think you have shallow reading of the conversation and that my interpretation is consistent with the options in chapter 3 while yours are not. Which is the point of this thread. A small number of high engaged people would like to see their interpretation of SH be the only one.
When does SH ask the player if Karlach is someone to be threatened by? Does she ever ask how serious you are with any of the other companions? Why is she just assuming she wouldn't be the primary partner with Karlach or the others? The player should decide who is a primary partner or not, not an npc just assuming things. If SH is fine with Halsin, there's no reason she shouldn't be with Karlach, period.
Cool, we ignored main argument again I guess. Wine dialogue is that she only say's "not today", both side can headcanon this I agree, alright.
Can you tell me what I am "headcanoning" in her poly proposal rejects though? She just says no. "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare."
As I've said repeated. That interpretation of the words is not inconsistent with a desire to be a primary parter / nesting partner / ect.
You may not like my interpretation but I have responded to that point repeatedly. I think you have shallow reading of the conversation and that my interpretation is consistent with the options in chapter 3 while yours are not. Which is the point of this thread. A small number of high engaged people would like to see their interpretation of SH be the only one.
But thats headcanon on your side though? What makes you think that she is "threatened" by 5 origins, but not by Halsin? My interpretation about her being monogamous and ok with open relationship is also consistent, is it not? Only that I consider Halsin as a fling. The only difference we have here is that you continue to classify her as default poly, ignoring the fact that she rejects said "poly" in act 2. Her lines about this are as blunt as they are. Your description with different classifications of poly relationships is just an attempt to "shoehorn" her into being poly and thats what I consider headcanon from you. I agree that wine dialogue can be read differently and hence we get 2 different "headcanons".
When does SH ask the player if Karlach is someone to be threatened by? Does she ever ask how serious you are with any of the other companions? Why is she just assuming she wouldn't be the primary partner with Karlach or the others? The player should decide who is a primary partner or not, not an npc just assuming things. If SH is fine with Halsin, there's no reason she shouldn't be with Karlach, period.
I don't think the Karlach bit is well written. In fact don't think Karlach is a very well written character at all. (I know that is a very unpopular opinion)
But the only answer I can give is the one you must also give: it isn't there in the text. SH never says "nesting partner" neither does she say "exclusive", "monogamous" or any other words that would support your interpretation.
But my interpretation is consistent with all of her dialogues while yours is not. And, again, that's what you are asking for, right? To have your interpretation become cannon and my interpretation to be eliminated from the game?
Alright, enough. We're all repeating ourselves. We see one thing while you see another thing entirely. Let's just leave it at that. Although, most people playing the game as monogamous will believe that Shadowheart leans the same way. That's all I'll say.
You are putting words in SH's mouth that are never there. You say she is threatened, yet she doesn't even IMPLY it. So your interpretation is simply headcanon, like you're pulling things out of thin air.
My interpretation is also consistent without headcanon, even though some don't like it. The difference between our interpretations is you try to headcanon her act 2 poly proposal as wanting "nesting partner" or seeing "threat" in other companions to be not number 1, while I just consider Halsin as a fling(He even says that he doesn't like word "relationship" when you ask him about it). P.S.
My interpretation is also consistent without headcanon, even though some don't like it. The difference between our interpretations is you try to headcanon her act 2 poly proposal as wanting "nesting partner" or seeing "threat" in other companions to be not number 1, while I just consider Halsin as a fling(He even says that he doesn't like word "relationship" when you ask him about it).
That still isn't consistent with what's established in act 1/2 but okay lolb
My interpretation is also consistent without headcanon, even though some don't like it. The difference between our interpretations is you try to headcanon her act 2 poly proposal as wanting "nesting partner" or seeing "threat" in other companions to be not number 1, while I just consider Halsin as a fling(He even says that he doesn't like word "relationship" when you ask him about it).
That's right. We're all head cannoning here. I'm sincerely happy we came to an agreement. I can't get the party emoji to show up on this forum so: *party emoji*!
I wouldn't mind some improvements to the dialogue - especially the cringe swan line - but prefer to see poly interpretations better supported instead of having the monogamy path be the only path. Ironically I end the game with a pretty mono SH since my Tav doesn't want to hire the twins, cheat with Mizorra or climb mount Halsin. But I'm glad those are in the game for the people who like them.
But this just doesn't seem like a pressing issue where the endgame does. I want Larian to fix that before the revise the romances.
Originally Posted by Ehhhh123
Alright, enough. We're all repeating ourselves. We see one thing while you see another thing entirely. Let's just leave it at that. Although, most people playing the game as monogamous will believe that Shadowheart leans the same way. That's all I'll say.
Agreed. I will see her as a nesting partner, others as strictly mono. I hope the game supports both interpretations. I don't think it's an accident that mono people see SH as mono and poly people as poly. Is this the best interpretation of poly one could get? No. Is better than PF: Kingmaker? I think so, yes.
She literally rejects every poly proposal in act 2. All 5 options. Thats not headcanon. Headcanon here is only that you assume she rejects it ONLY because she feels threatened to not be first in Tav's heart. Karlach for example is doomed and SH herself shows attraction to her in act 1. All you have for "poly" evidence is her tiefling party line, where in order to make her say it - you have to play dumb, and make weird, not obvious interpretation there.
If she was truly poly, she would agree on poly proposal in act2. That's the itchy part(In Gale dialogue Tav even asks her: "Why let monogamy get in our way" but she prefers that it does get in our way in the end, because she refuses.). Too much headcanon about "nesting partner" here to justify her answer. Mizora and Drows have nothing to do with being poly too. Halsin is the only question and, shockingly, thats the main reason why this topic was created in the first place(friendly reminder that Karlach and Astarion also let you do your thing with Halsin, but you can't have any poly relationship between those(SH,Astarion,Karlach), hence it supports idea that Halsin is just a fling). But hey, if you prefer to read it your way - do it.
But...it's not? Like, just reading through this and I have to say something here because it seems to me that you are reading WAY into what isn't there. For example, the whole 'primary' thing. There is no negotiation there. She isn't setting boundaries, expectations or ultimatums in that conversation because the context is her offering to break it off entirely when the subject is brought up at all. Saying she just wants to be the primary in a poly arrangement, when she doesn't even try to do just that, doesn't hold water at all.
Would it be better if the orgy was followed up by a conversation about relationship boundaries? Absolutely. Do I think it's OCC? I really don't.
If you speak to the dryad in the circus it makes it clear the core of SH's character is that she doesn't know what she wants. Now you are right that this is narrative support for game logic - "what am I to do?" She, like the other characters, change according to Tav's wishes. But what's happening in the this thread is that people want to remove the possibility from the game. And do so despite the fact that it's pretty easy to avoid the "offensive" conversations. For Bhaal's sake you have to hire sex workers to be offended. Don't hire sex workers and you won't end up in an orgy!
Your point about the lore is good one. Shar lost the portfolio of seduction to Sharess and while seduction was part of the lore at one point it no longer is the case. That could be repaired - although the I think the contradiction between the Dror Ragzlin mindflayer is a bigger issue. Depending on when you talk to the corpse you either identify it as the one that infected you or conclude that some other mind flayer infected you.
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Third is, while you can make an argument for an alternate interpretation of one thing, it does not happen in a vacuum. Further developments and additional context should inform of your interpretation of that first thing, not the other way around, especially when it starts not making a lot of sense or starts reaching.
Correct And I think the people who see SH as mono are reaching because they see mono as the natural end point of a loving relationship whereas I see poly as the best option in a loving relationship.
Act 1. Shadowheart is attracted to your Tav(You can read her thoughts at some points), but is not in love yet and doesn't really know what she wants. Flirts with other companions, shows some interest in Karlach. Doesn't act on anything though, doesn't sleep with others if not romanced. Invites Tav at Tiefling party to romantic evening(Option to get her say not today if ask her about shared arrangment. You can read it differently, sure. I read it more as she points that she wants to spend actually not in friend's company, but romantic one with Tav. Tav is playing dumb obviously. Also it does not end up in sex or anything.). Act 2. She actually falls in love but is hindered by her faith and duty(Thats the key here). Denies any poly proposal at this point(Even with her conflict between faith/love. Isn't it a bit selfish or hypocritical if she was actually poly all this time?), she wants Tav all for herself. Post Shadowfell she actually goes on confession about this and tells Tav first time in the game that she wants to be with Tav now and always. Act 3. She actually is ok with open relationship if Tav is. She is ok at "having fun" with drows, she is ok with Halsin fling(Again, I consider this as fling, because of her absolute 180 turn with act 2 behaviour), ok with Mizora. Never asks Tav about opening relationship herself and stays faithful till the end(So its only on Tav to "not be faithful"). She is monogamous, but ok with opening relationship(Which makes sense considering how she was raised and lived her life pre Tav). Thats how I read it.
She is monogamous, but ok with opening relationship(Which makes sense considering how she was raised and lived her life pre Tav). Thats how I read it.
Then we only disagree on the type of poly we see. Please the read the article I posted - you just described 'mongomish' which is a type of ENM
I've checked your article, dont worry. She falls under "monogomish" descripion yes, only if you consider Halsin as not a fling. If you do however, she is basically "open monogamy". And sorry, I haven't intented to be mean or anything btw.
Most people playing with her romance in mind will never think: "Hmm, Shadowheart must be poly" with everything she does and says outside of interactions with Halsin. Why? Because most people tend to play as monogamous. Besides, even if she were secretly poly it still isn't a good thing at all. I'd 100% like to know if she's into that kind of thing before so I don't get emotionally invested in her and feel stupid later.
Most people playing with her romance in mind will never think: "Hmm, Shadowheart must be poly" with everything she does and says outside of interactions with Halsin. Why? Because most people tend to play as monogamous. Besides, even if she were secretly poly it still isn't a good thing at all. I'd 100% like to know if she's into that kind of thing before so I don't get emotionally invested in her and feel stupid later.
At worst poly ppl can have relationship with mono ppl, I see no reason why wouldn't she agree to be mono with Tav, if Tav wishes so. Considering how faithful she stays and cares about Tav. Nothing points at her being poly anyway, it's only Halsin inconsistency(Fling or not).
Most people playing with her romance in mind will never think: "Hmm, Shadowheart must be poly" with everything she does and says outside of interactions with Halsin. Why? Because most people tend to play as monogamous. Besides, even if she were secretly poly it still isn't a good thing at all. I'd 100% like to know if she's into that kind of thing before so I don't get emotionally invested in her and feel stupid later.
She only mentions it if you encourage her to do so. I don't like the idea that variant SH pours the blood of the nightsong on the statue of Selune. But I never have to see that in my game even as I know she has that potential. Is potential for poly any worse than potential for true evil?
Let other have their fun in the way they choose to do so - my choices shouldn't ruin your fun.
That at least makes sense for her story though as we know she is written as being on the fence about Shar and Selune. Several points in the story show her heretical side, so it's not a surprise for the player if she were to go the Shar route if you don't have enough approval etc. But on the other hand, she expresses doubts on several occasions. That is proper foreshadowing. We as the player are not confused by this because it's handled properly and there isn't anything open to interpretation.
Its just not the case with her being into polyamory. If they wanted her to be that way they should have been more clear and had more foreshadowing. As it stands, it's written very poorly and looks shoehorned in. Writers cannot just plop something randomly in act 3 like that, that's not how proper writing is done.
No it wasn't clear. Most people don't think it was anything more than her wanting you all to herself. She didn't want to bring the rest of the group along because why would she when its meant to be a date??? Are you suggesting on another night she would wanna date with all of the group or another party member?
The entire discussion has probably run its course if this implication is going start becoming a pattern from people that won't even consider the idea of individual interpretation to be a valid experience while playing a videogame wherein the character is written for non-monogamy to be a possibility that can actively be explored and established in the romance. It's probably more worthwhile to focus on writing quibbles instead of going this direction which based on prior personal experience in this thread I am interpreting as a certain kind of accusation about the real people posting here.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
That at least makes sense for her story though as we know she is written as being on the fence about Shar and Selune. Several points in the story show her heretical side, so it's not a surprise for the player if she were to go the Shar route if you don't have enough approval etc. But on the other hand, she expresses doubts on several occasions. That is proper foreshadowing. We as the player are not confused by this because it's handled properly and there isn't anything open to interpretation.
Its just not the case with her being into polyamory. If they wanted her to be that way they should have been more clear and had more foreshadowing. As it stands, it's written very poorly and looks shoehorned in. Writers cannot just plop something randomly in act 3 like that, that's not how proper writing is done.
I mean if you want proper foreshadowing it was brought up recently: why does a Shadowheart that you've encouraged to lean deeper into her Shar worship time and time again randomly decide NOT to in Act 2 if the choice is left to her? Cuz the doubt is almost non-existent on that route. The answer is obviously a mechanical issue with it being based on approval rather than anything about the writing or your choices to that point, but it's a far more blatant inconsistency where you aren't just reading lines differently than other players interpret them, the game has actively gone against everything it's presented to you and that you've chosen to that point. With her romance opening up, a player who has made choices in pursuit of that will likely have come across dialogue that such a player can rather easily read as supporting the possibility of it, and then sure enough the game does allow it to happen. I personally think this is consistent writing. The writing is open to the interpretation of the player, and the game's own design tells us that BOTH interpretations are correct, it just depends on what you choose in this extremely choice-heavy game.
Again, most people don't think like that. If they did, every conversation ever had by any person ever would be psychoanalyzed to death to find meaning in nothing. In fact, with that kind of thinking you can justify two people who are a couple inviting others out to lunch as being an invitation of polyamory. Please understand that most believe that kind of thinking is pretty bizarre, exactly like "Literature Teacher" memes levels of bizarre.
Again, most people don't think like that. If they did, every conversation ever had by any person ever would be psychoanalyzed to death to find meaning in nothing. In fact, with that kind of thinking you can justify two people who are a couple inviting others out to lunch as being an invitation of polyamory. Please understand that that kind of thinking is pretty bizarre, almost like "Literature Teacher" memes kind of bizarre.
You and Backinstyle keep on leaning on this "most people are monogamous" reasoning for why people won't read a line a certain way. This is getting EXTREMELY uncomfortable to see you keep saying because what you're doing by projecting that into the argument is saying it's not valid to be non-monogamous as a person. It's getting extremely uncomfortable.
I don't want to get involved in this topic again but I'll just say this...
I think both of you, people that see a mono SH & people that see a poly SH, are right. This is a roleplay game, meaning that you gonna read the game in the way you see things.
I think there should be a conversation in the game exploring the possibility of her beign poly. And if you answer negatively to said conversation, it should lock you out of the poly path. That conversations should be in act 1. That way everyone is happy.
Halsin needs to stop flirting/self inserting in your character's relationship, the only way that would be acceptable is IF your Tav opens his relationship with him. Also, I don't know why the only (true) poly character they make was a male, where's my poly female character?
And if they wanted to implement poly, they should've made it VERY CLEAR that certain characters are going to be that way. Leave no room to speculation, this, after all, are sensitive topics that not everyone agrees on (and that's ok).
The entire discussion has probably run its course if this implication is going start becoming a pattern from people that won't even consider the idea of individual interpretation to be a valid experience while playing a videogame wherein the character is written for non-monogamy to be a possibility that can actively be explored and established in the romance. It's probably more worthwhile to focus on writing quibbles instead of going this direction which based on prior personal experience in this thread I am interpreting as a certain kind of accusation about the real people posting here.
Originally Posted by Backinstyle
That at least makes sense for her story though as we know she is written as being on the fence about Shar and Selune. Several points in the story show her heretical side, so it's not a surprise for the player if she were to go the Shar route if you don't have enough approval etc. But on the other hand, she expresses doubts on several occasions. That is proper foreshadowing. We as the player are not confused by this because it's handled properly and there isn't anything open to interpretation.
Its just not the case with her being into polyamory. If they wanted her to be that way they should have been more clear and had more foreshadowing. As it stands, it's written very poorly and looks shoehorned in. Writers cannot just plop something randomly in act 3 like that, that's not how proper writing is done.
I mean if you want proper foreshadowing it was brought up recently: why does a Shadowheart that you've encouraged to lean deeper into her Shar worship time and time again randomly decide NOT to in Act 2 if the choice is left to her? Cuz the doubt is almost non-existent on that route. The answer is obviously a mechanical issue with it being based on approval rather than anything about the writing or your choices to that point, but it's a far more blatant inconsistency where you aren't just reading lines differently than other players interpret them, the game has actively gone against everything it's presented to you and that you've chosen to that point. With her romance opening up, a player who has made choices in pursuit of that will likely have come across dialogue that such a player can rather easily read as supporting the possibility of it, and then sure enough the game does allow it to happen. I personally think this is consistent writing. The writing is open to the interpretation of the player, and the game's own design tells us that BOTH interpretations are correct, it just depends on what you choose in this extremely choice-heavy game.
It's isn't clear if it just based on approval as I've seen ppl in other forums/apps say they had high approval and she chose Shar. So I have no idea what decides this.
Still, we know she's capable of choosing one or the other because it's explained clearly. There's no guesswork here. Nobody has a thread open to dispute this. We all understand this is what her story was leading to. There is no such thing with the polyamory stuff, it just simply doesn't exist prior to act 3. If she was polyamorous they should have stated it right away, so players know what to expect and quite simply that this is who she is. But there's none of that.
The problem I'm seeing here is that some don't seem to grasp story structure/techniques and how they shape a proper story. Writing isn't like real life. We do things out of the blue IRL but that doesn't often work in writing because the audience can get confused and doesn't believe it. This is just standard writing practice.
I don't want to get involved in this topic again but I'll just say this...
I think both of you, people that see a mono SH & people that see a poly SH, are right. This is a roleplay game, meaning that you gonna read the game in the way you see things.
I think there should be a conversation in the game exploring the possibility of her beign poly. And if you answer negatively to said conversation, it should lock you out of the poly path. That conversations should be in act 1. That way everyone is happy.
Halsin needs to stop flirting/self inserting in your character's relationship, the only way that would be acceptable is IF your Tav opens his relationship with him. Also, I don't know why the only (true) poly character they make was a male, where's my poly female character?
And if they wanted to implement poly, they should've made it VERY CLEAR that certain characters are going to be that way. Leave no room to speculation, this, after all, are sensitive topics that not everyone agrees on (and that's ok).
No, they should treat SH the way she is treated during a solo Halsin romance, where they show no interest in one another. It makes no sense that she suddenly would be interested if you try to romance her.
If she's one way when you romance him solo, she should be the same way she is when you romance her solo.
I don't want to get involved in this topic again but I'll just say this...
I think both of you, people that see a mono SH & people that see a poly SH, are right. This is a roleplay game, meaning that you gonna read the game in the way you see things.
I think there should be a conversation in the game exploring the possibility of her beign poly. And if you answer negatively to said conversation, it should lock you out of the poly path. That conversations should be in act 1. That way everyone is happy.
Halsin needs to stop flirting/self inserting in your character's relationship, the only way that would be acceptable is IF your Tav opens his relationship with him. Also, I don't know why the only (true) poly character they make was a male, where's my poly female character?
And if they wanted to implement poly, they should've made it VERY CLEAR that certain characters are going to be that way. Leave no room to speculation, this, after all, are sensitive topics that not everyone agrees on (and that's ok).
I agree on this. She is right now though(based on her actions in act 2) "monogamish" or "open monogamy". There are no true "poly" companion outside of Halsin. Karlach and Astarion I wouldn't call poly aswell, but they agree on Halsin proposal for Tav.
Second time today: please, everyone, respect others’ rights to hold and express views other than your own.
And in response to a question asked above, no, no one needs to repeat themselves. If they find themselves doing so, then that indicates they’ve already made their point of view clear and it’s time to agree to disagree.
And, for clarity, respecting others’ rights to hold and express other views means not accusing those others of failing to appreciate or understand storytelling and not continuing to insist your own interpretation is the only right one when you’ve already said that multiple times. I really think there are some posters here who should seriously consider taking a break from this thread, or at the very least cutting down on the number of posts they add here each day.
If she's one way when you romance him solo, she should be the same way she is when you romance her solo.
It's almost like Halsin is the one causing inconsistencies due to the circumstances of his disrespectful writing when roleplaying an open/poly Tav, whereas with Shadowheart that content (not involving Halsin) is a valid part of what some players can experience about her character in their playthroughs romancing her.
It's still inconsistent with her writing in act 1 and 2 no matter how you slice it. So I think both SH and Halsin are inconsistent with how they are written.
My goodness I've missed a lot. I'll just reply to two general things because.. there's too much otherwise. Sorry if these have already been covered en masse (I did read most of it, don't worry!).
1. The act 1 wine dialogue. I've read the argument that it is supposedly her being playful, but if you look at what happens, it's actually exactly what she says it is. She doesn't want to share because she wants a 'first date' with you, alone. And all you do is kiss by the end of it, assuming you even succeed the insight check (not a tough one, mind). And after that, she'll talk about how she was genuinely happy about that first kiss. So no, it's not her being playful. It's just her wanting to share a bottle, but she doesn't want to share it with others there. So even if you ignore her character development, her comment about "not tonight" actually does not indicate anything more than her unwillingness to share a bottle of wine with anyone but you because she does not consider it part of the party going on (where a lot of wine is being shared, you can drink Astarion's!) - she considers it a first date with you. Which it is.
You asking if she doesn't want to share a bottle with others is, after all, a reply to her saying she wants to wait with sharing it until the others are asleep. Another implication that she wants to share the bottle (not anything else) with you and not with the others while the party is still going on.
2. This is mainly for Netav. I'm afraid that while you prefer to read Halsin as a fling, the game doesn't seem to agree. I completely forgot about this previously when talking about it but don't forget that Halsin will actually be considered a romance partner after your sex scene together and you can continue kissing him all the way until the end. You can also break up with him. He becomes no different than any other romance, so there is no fling, it's actual romance. If that wasn't enough, the writers themselves called him poly, so the assumption of him being a fling because nothing else except "this is an inconsistency" would explain why she would accept him and not the others is unfortunately false until they change their stance, change the dialogue, and make it an actual fling (remove the romance trigger after your sex scene together, so you don't get romance specific dialogue with him).
Not something I want them to do, of course. For the sake of those that like Halsin I really want them to make him into a proper romance partner that gives them what they asked for, and turning him into an actual fling is the complete opposite of what they hoped for.
So it would seem we're back to square 1. The only line that could've possibly implied that she is open to sharing is not actually related to anything romantic (and would've been developed out of in act 2 anyway), and the idea that she would be up for open relationships because Halsin is considered a fling is unfortunately debunked by the game itself considering Halsin more than a fling. She's mono for ~2 hours of her romance content (almost the entire romance part), but for 3 scenes that amount to about 5 minutes that do not have consequences to her romance or add character development, she's randomly open for more without any explanation why. After which she's back to mono again.
TL:DR: It's an inconsistency, unfortunately, and we'll have to live with knowing it is until they change/remove it or change her story drastically to have it be consistent with it. Either way, I'd be content, even if I have my preferences on how they deal with it. I just want the inconsistency gone.
You asking if she doesn't want to share a bottle with others is, after all, a reply to her saying she wants to wait with sharing it until the others are asleep. Another implication that she wants to share the bottle (not anything else) with you and not with the others while the party is still going on.
I think it's deeper than that. Try streaming this movie - it's fantastic movie where people are talking about personalities, psychological struggles and relationships while ostensibly talking about wine. Here the MC is talking about his favorite wine but his date is savvy enough to figure out that he's talking about himself:
[quote=Rahaya] Correct And I think the people who see SH as mono are reaching because they see mono as the natural end point of a loving relationship whereas I see poly as the best option in a loving relationship.
There we go. Thank you for explicitly outing yourself as a bad faith actor with an agenda instead of actually engaging with what makes sense given what is in the game.
'What is best' is not, and has never been, the topic of this conversation. I would advise everyone to ignore KillerRabbit as they are not here to actually discuss your concerns and indeed have a vested interest in pretending they aren't valid.
[quote=Rahaya] Correct And I think the people who see SH as mono are reaching because they see mono as the natural end point of a loving relationship whereas I see poly as the best option in a loving relationship.
There we go. Thank you for explicitly outing yourself as a bad faith actor with an agenda instead of actually engaging with what makes sense given what is in the game.
'What is best' is not, and has never been, the topic of this conversation. I would advise everyone to ignore KillerRabbit as they are not here to actually discuss your concerns.
Second time today: please, everyone, respect others’ rights to hold and express views other than your own.
And in response to a question asked above, no, no one needs to repeat themselves. If they find themselves doing so, then that indicates they’ve already made their point of view clear and it’s time to agree to disagree.
And, for clarity, respecting others’ rights to hold and express other views means not accusing those others of failing to appreciate or understand storytelling and not continuing to insist your own interpretation is the only right one when you’ve already said that multiple times. I really think there are some posters here who should seriously consider taking a break from this thread, or at the very least cutting down on the number of posts they add here each day.
Second time today: please, everyone, respect others’ rights to hold and express views other than your own.
And in response to a question asked above, no, no one needs to repeat themselves. If they find themselves doing so, then that indicates they’ve already made their point of view clear and it’s time to agree to disagree.
And, for clarity, respecting others’ rights to hold and express other views means not accusing those others of failing to appreciate or understand storytelling and not continuing to insist your own interpretation is the only right one when you’ve already said that multiple times. I really think there are some posters here who should seriously consider taking a break from this thread, or at the very least cutting down on the number of posts they add here each day.
TL:DR: It's an inconsistency, unfortunately, and we'll have to live with knowing it is until they change/remove it or change her story drastically to have it be consistent with it. Either way, I'd be content, even if I have my preferences on how they deal with it. I just want the inconsistency gone.
God no. I can put up with inconsistencies that I can choose to not just engage with but if they were to rewrite her to make her strictly poly it would ruin not only her but the entire game for me and probably many others considering shes one of if not the most popular romance option.
You asking if she doesn't want to share a bottle with others is, after all, a reply to her saying she wants to wait with sharing it until the others are asleep. Another implication that she wants to share the bottle (not anything else) with you and not with the others while the party is still going on.
I think it's deeper than that. Try streaming this movie - it's fantastic movie where people are talking about personalities, psychological struggles and relationships while ostensibly talking about wine. Here the MC is talking about his favorite wine but his date is savvy enough to figure out that he's talking about himself:
I'm sure it's a good movie, and the conversation indicates such, but I do not see how it is even remotely related to her simply saying she doesn't want to share a bottle of wine with the others during the party but instead wants to share it with you alone after the party?
Which is exactly what she does, and even your attempts at making it more than that are shut down by her. So reading more into it than it is, is reading more into it than what actually happens. Which doesn't make sense, does it.
On a sidenote, you should probably throw all these links you're adding to the topic in a spoiler tag. They're taking up quite a lot of space.
Originally Posted by Bigli
God no. I can put up with inconsistencies that I can choose to not just engage with but if they were to rewrite her to make her strictly poly it would ruin not only her but the entire game for me and probably many others considering shes one of if not the most popular romance option.
What I mean is that by removing the inconsistency from it all, they wouldn't be removing her mono romance path. They would simply make her poly/open romance path actually make sense. And by having it make sense, it also means that we get some closure as to why she'd even accept it in the first place, which we don't have right now. We still don't have to pursue it, but if her argument is - for example - "I'm fine with whatever you want so long as you don't forget about me", then I'd be 100% okay with that. Of course it needs to be more nuanced than a single line, but I hope you get my point.
To me, that's similar to choosing to spare or kill the Nightsong. We know the other path exists, and we know it's not quite as romantic (to us, anyhow) but we can avoid it entirely and it's explained why it exists.
If you follow the link you can watch the entire scene - best scene in the whole movie. (although the merlot scene is hilarious) You miss out the character development - this guy is a wash up, a fraud, a bit prickly . . . - but you can get much of that from his appearance. The follow up is worth while because she describes what she wants from the night and from a relationship. All while discussing wine, of course.
If we agree that the wine conversation in BG3 is like the wine conversation in this movie. Then then Tav has the option say - want to involve others and SH is indeed saying "just you tonight"
Which is consistent with her reaction to the twins. If you run from chapter 2 right into the brothel SH will say something to the effect of "that's a possibility but let's wait until we've had our first time together" As I see it (and believe me I know you don't) the two conversations are mirrors of each other.
Maybe later but I want you all to myself for the moment]
TBH, I wonder if the BG3 wine scene was inspired by this movie.
If you follow the link you can watch the entire scene - best scene in the whole movie. (although the merlot scene is hilarious) You miss out the character development - this guy is a wash up, a fraud, a bit prickly . . . - but you can get much of that from his appearance. The follow up is worth while because she describes what she wants from the night and from a relationship. All while discussing wine, of course.
If we agree that the wine conversation in BG3 is like the wine conversation in this movie. Then then Tav has the option say - want to involve others and SH is indeed saying "just you tonight"
Which is consistent with her reaction to the twins. If you run from chapter 2 right into the brothel SH will say something to the effect of "that's a possibility but let's wait until we've had our first time together" As I see it (and believe me I know you don't) the two conversations are mirrors of each other.
Maybe later but I want you all to myself [b]for the moment[/b]
TBH, I wonder if the BG3 wine scene was inspired by this movie.
We do not agree that the wine conversation is like the conversation in the movie. It is absolutely nothing like that and you have a VERY wild imagination if you think it is. She literally says nothing more than asking to share a bottle of wine with you, and if you ask if she doesn't want to share it with others during the party, she says "not tonight" because she wants to share it with you alone after the others are asleep.
That's not her being a fraud, or her going in depth about what wines she likes while actually explaining who she herself is. That's just her asking to share a bottle of wine with you after the party instead of with the others during the party, which is exactly what she does. Sorry to say.
That's not her being a fraud, or her going in depth about what wines she likes while actually explaining who she herself is. That's just her asking to share a bottle of wine with you after the party, which is exactly what she does. Sorry to say.
Then we understand where we disagree. I believe there is a subtext to that conversation that you are missing and that is part of the reason the chapter 3 seems disjointed.
Btw, the fraud comment was directed at Miles, the MC of the movie Sideways. Highly recommended.
Then we understand where we disagree. I believe there is a subtext to that conversation that you are missing and that is part of the reason the chapter 3 seems disjointed.
Btw, the fraud comment was directed at Miles, the MC of the movie Sideways. Highly recommended.
I don't think there's subtext to that conversation that anyone is missing, I think there's subtext to that conversation that you are making up. Just like the subtext you made up when saying she's not "threatened" by Halsin, but is "threatened" by the rest.
Which is fine, don't get me wrong. But we can't see the headcanon that you add to the game in your mind, because it's not in the actual game.
Dear one, I got it. We all get it. I literally said that I knew your position. (and to be blunt the subtext was: you don't need to repeat your position yet again)
I've lost count about how many times you've repeated yourself. You: a) don't need to keep reinstating your position. No one is going to be convinced by rote repetition b) please try to express yourself without implying that I am "making stuff" up. It's insulting. And by insulting me you demean yourself because you are demonstrating that you are incapable of carrying on a conversation without insulting others. I see something you don't. I could be mistaken but that doesn't mean I am making things up.
In no way, shape or form was that meant as an insult. I am sorry if you perceived it as such.
The reason I and others have ended up repeating ourselves is because you have, for about 5 pages now, not really had much more of an argument than these two points and both of them include you adding subtext to the game that isn't in the actual game. That's why I call it made up. There's nothing wrong with making things up. The entire game is made up, after all. But what you make up for your own roleplayed story doesn't actually get added to the game. Therefore, we can't see it.
Lets agree to disagree, either way. This doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Though I must say, if you bring these same arguments up again, you can't blame me or others for arguing against it. Repetition goes both ways.
[quote=Rahaya] Correct And I think the people who see SH as mono are reaching because they see mono as the natural end point of a loving relationship whereas I see poly as the best option in a loving relationship.
There we go. Thank you for explicitly outing yourself as a bad faith actor with an agenda instead of actually engaging with what makes sense given what is in the game.
'What is best' is not, and has never been, the topic of this conversation. I would advise everyone to ignore KillerRabbit as they are not here to actually discuss your concerns and indeed have a vested interest in pretending they aren't valid.
Agreed. It's pointless engaging with someone like that.
Very well but I hope you understand that I see you doing the same thing. Right? I understand that you believe that I am seeing things / making this up / fooling myself by believing that the this conversation - ostensibly about wine - is actually a conversation about the bounds of a potential relationship. I understand that you believe my position lacks evidence. Is that right?
Do you understand that I believe you are doing something similar? Denying subtext, making a molehill out one conversation and that you position could only be maintained if you removed large portions of chapter 3, removed the sharing line from chapter 1 and rewrote the dialogues after the temple of shar?
To be clear I'm not asking if you agree. BELIEVE ME I know you do not. But I am wondering if you've actually engaged with what I've said in any meaningful manner.
No one else here has ever claimed that mono was "the best" or superior in any way. All we've said is that SH doesn't seem to be poly in the game. That's the difference.
Very well but I hope you understand that I see you doing the same thing. Right? I understand that you believe that I am seeing things / making this up / fooling myself by believing that the this conversation - ostensibly about wine - is actually a conversation about the bounds of a potential relationship. I understand that you believe my position lacks evidence. Is that right?
The conversation isn't even about wine. That's the problem. Whatever you're reading into it is not actually there. Here's the facts of the conversation. 1. Wine is being shared, as is a norm during a party. 2. She asks to share a bottle with you, alone, after the party. 3. When you ask if she doesn't want to share it with the rest during the party, she says "not tonight" because she wants to share it with you alone. 4. There is some (optional) dialogue where you can ask "Just a bottle?". This is you implying that you want more than just wine. She rejects it by saying it's a fine wine that she pilfered, thus she doesn't want more. She just wants a first date. 5. You don't do more than that during the night. You share the bottle, talk like people would during a first date. 6. She'll once again shut down an (optional) attempt at getting more done and you share a romantic first date kiss at the end of it. 7. You start your relationship officially after that night.
That's not a conversation about wine. Whatsoever. The wine is irrelevant. The conversation is about having a first date together, and such first date is done in private. Then you have the first date. Wine hardly even gets mentioned if you don't act like a horny teenager that keeps pushing her for sex.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Do you understand that I believe you are doing something similar? Denying subtext, making a molehill out one conversation and that you position could only be maintained if you removed large portions of chapter 3, removed the sharing line from chapter 1 and rewrote the dialogues after the temple of shar?
Read the above and understand that I am not denying subtext. You have never even explained why she would be "threatened" by the 5 origin companions but not Halsin. It's been asked to you multiple times, but you ignored it every time and instead of saying why you think so, all you've done is repeat that you think so. What you call "large portions of chapter 3" are also incredibly short dialogues, accumulate to a very tiny part of her romance, that are all optional, and have no impact on the outcome of anything during her main unavoidable romance story.
I do not know what dialogue after the Temple of Shar you are referring to. If you mean the incredibly short dialogues I referred to above, then read above.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
To be clear I'm not asking if you agree. BELIEVE ME I know you do not. But I am wondering if you've actually engaged with what I've said in any meaningful manner.
I am, otherwise I wouldn't be writing entire paragraphs about it. I question if this is mutual, however. After all, you've already insulted me by saying I supposedly think mono is baseline while I have stated I think nothing in a game is baseline; by saying that I supposedly hate poly people while I have stated that all I want is the inconsistency removed, even if they double down on the decision to give her a storyline that involves it; and you refuse to answer certain questions.
To be clear I'm not asking if you agree. BELIEVE ME I know you do not. But I am wondering if you've actually engaged with what I've said in any meaningful manner.
I am, otherwise I wouldn't be writing entire paragraphs about it.[/quote]
Then I thank you for engaging. I partially agree but I encourage you to view the "just a bottle" line again. There are two different variants. If you've agreed to spend the night with anyone else she says ". . . first come, first served" Which is a saucy line:
And if you haven't spoken to anyone else she says "it's quite a bottle"
I partially agree but I encourage you to view the "just a bottle" line again. There are two different variants. If you've agreed to spend the night with anyone else she says ". . . first come, first served" Which is a saucy line:
She can't have a first date with you that night if you already promised to spend the night with someone else, indeed. As we already know, her saying she would want to keep you is for that first date, which is what you get if you take her up on the offer. What am I supposedly missing there?
And for the record, something missing from the video, but if you choose the dialogue option "I've arranged some.. company, yes. It could be a long evening." then she actually does exactly what she says she will do. She shares the bottle with you on the spot by filling your glass, because she knows you have other plans for the night. Do you need more proof that there's no subtext here?
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
And if you haven't spoken to anyone else she says "it's quite a bottle"
This is a reply to you asking for more than just the sharing of a bottle together. You are asking for sex. It's her stating she does not want more, she wants just a first date. It's evident here, and throughout the game, that she's just not that kind of girl (Lae'zel is, though). I explained that already in the post you replied to. Here's the quote:
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
4. There is some (optional) dialogue where you can ask "Just a bottle?". This is you implying that you want more than just wine. She rejects it by saying it's a fine wine that she pilfered, thus she doesn't want more. She just wants a first date.
I know you 'explained' it, I was responding to your #4 and was asking you look at with new eyes.
I guess I do think she is "that sort of girl" which is to say she's the sort of woman I like: free, open, in control of her sexuality. But I understand why you want to see her differently. It's a sweet scene.
I know you 'explained' it, I was responding to your #4 and was asking you look at with new eyes.
I guess I do think she is "that sort of girl" which is to say she's the sort of woman I like: free, open, in control of her sexuality. But I understand why you want to see her differently. It's a sweet scene.
There's no specific way I want to see her as. I simply see her as the person the game portrays her as. And that person is someone who, based on the evidence we just spoke of, wants to have a first date with you, and will ask you to reconsider your plans with someone else that night to spend the night with her on a date, but isn't willing to sleep with you on your first date.
None of which indicates any kind of want to share you with others, then or otherwise, and none of which is related to the intricacies of wine except that happens to be what you're drinking on the night that you have your first date.
You, on the other hand, seem to want to see her as a "free, open girl". And thus, you made up some subtext that fits that for your own game's roleplay.
And I believe you are doing the same - seeing her as you want to see her. Again. Try to understand that this isn't obvious - this is a matter of interpretation. We are doing the same thing - each seeing through our own lenses. Neither of can cast true sight - we must look through colored lenses.
(and for the love of Bhaal try to remember that you are taking a position can only be maintained if the game dialogue is changed so your interpretation isn't obvious to either me or to the author)
You, on the other hand, seem to want to see her as a "free, open girl". And thus, you made up some subtext that fits that for your own game's roleplay.
This is the exact problem the discussion continues to run into. Some people are saying "this is how I read the interactions" and some other people are saying "you're making that up." That's why this will continue to circle forever. Agreeing that it is open to interpretation is meaningless when one party will continue to assert that one interpretation is invalid.
You, on the other hand, seem to want to see her as a "free, open girl". And thus, you made up some subtext that fits that for your own game's roleplay.
This is the exact problem the discussion continues to run into. Some people are saying "this is how I read the interactions" and some other people are saying "you're making that up." That's why this will continue to circle forever. Agreeing that it is open to interpretation is meaningless when one party will continue to assert that one interpretation is invalid.
This is the exact problem the discussion continues to run into. Some people are saying "this is how I read the interactions" and some other people are saying "you're making that up." That's why this will continue to circle forever. Agreeing that it is open to interpretation is meaningless when one party will continue to assert that one interpretation is invalid.
I will not lie and say that the a tiny part of me is hoping that John himself randomly shows up and says that this seemingly rather easy to interpret interaction between Shadowheart and Tav indeed didn't have some insanely elaborate and hard to understand meaning behind it.
Because if it does, then I suppose I have misunderstood not just this interaction. I have misunderstood the entire game, because it's full of similar dialogues that can be interpreted in a similar manner while - based on evidence on what happens afterwards - are not meant to be seen as such.
This is the exact problem the discussion continues to run into. Some people are saying "this is how I read the interactions" and some other people are saying "you're making that up." That's why this will continue to circle forever. Agreeing that it is open to interpretation is meaningless when one party will continue to assert that one interpretation is invalid.
I will not lie and say that the a tiny part of me is hoping that John himself randomly shows up and says that this seemingly rather easy to interpret interaction between Shadowheart and Tav indeed didn't have some insanely elaborate and hard to understand meaning behind it.
Because if it does, then I suppose I have misunderstood not just this interaction. I have misunderstood the entire game, because it's full of similar dialogues that can be interpreted in a similar manner while - based on evidence on what happens afterwards - are not meant to be seen as such.
I honestly had the same thought. I thought about posting this to end of my last comment but decided it would be too aggressive. Annie Hall starts at 2:27. "Oh yeah well I happen to have Marshal McLuhan right here . . ."
I will not lie and say that the a tiny part of me is hoping that John himself randomly shows up and says that this seemingly rather easy to interpret interaction between Shadowheart and Tav indeed didn't have some insanely elaborate and hard to understand meaning behind it.
Because if it does, then I suppose I have misunderstood not just this interaction. I have misunderstood the entire game, because it's full of similar dialogues that can be interpreted in a similar manner while - based on evidence on what happens afterwards - are not meant to be seen as such.
I mean flirting is flirting, right. It can be a lot of different things with a lot of different subtle hints associated with it. If you believe everything Shadowheart says is 100% face value with absolutely nothing else to it, that's fine. In my experience flirting is not often that forward so I read some of my experience with vague flirtatious hints and extra meanings into that type of flirty interaction. There's nothing elaborate, it's just, get this, open to interpretation. That's why sometimes flirting goes well when you interpret well, and sometimes it goes poorly when you don't (as a videogame the designers have opted for more than one interpretation to go well).
I mean flirting is flirting, right. It can be a lot of different things with a lot of different subtle hints associated with it. If you believe everything Shadowheart says is 100% face value with absolutely nothing else to it, that's fine. In my experience flirting is not often that forward so I read some of my experience vague flirtatious hints and extra meanings into that type of flirty interaction.
It's not even the flirting that matters, however little of it there is. It's literally just her asking you on a first date, which is what you get. And if you decide to decline her invitation to said first date, she will - as she says - share the bottle with you on the spot before you leave her. The ACTIONS disagree with you two, thus the GAME disagrees with you. Yet you decide to interpret it that way anyway. The game says it's going to give you A, then it gives you A, and yet you still somehow read that as it saying it'll give you B.
I can't put it simpler than saying that you two seem to think you're more clever than the game. Sorry. But I disagree with that.
So, with that said, lets agree to disagree as I asked a bunch of posts ago already which got declined. At least I learned a lot from the chat afterwards, though.
Well I guess this is where I tap Red Queen's sign again and just walk away from the thread forever because damn. God forbid other individuals have other understandings even when the game has content for that.
It's not even flirting. It's literally just her asking you on a first date, which is what you get..
Try saying this "I don't see it that way. In my mind it's not even flirting. I see as her asking you" That we could break the circle we're stuck in. We are going to leave this discussion with different opinions but if you saying "see it that way" you are acknowledging that you are not divination wizard who can magically discern truth from fiction.
[quote=Michieltjuhh] [quote=Bigli] God no. I can put up with inconsistencies that I can choose to not just engage with but if they were to rewrite her to make her strictly poly it would ruin not only her but the entire game for me and probably many others considering shes one of if not the most popular romance option.
What I mean is that by removing the inconsistency from it all, they wouldn't be removing her mono romance path. They would simply make her poly/open romance path actually make sense. And by having it make sense, it also means that we get some closure as to why she'd even accept it in the first place, which we don't have right now. We still don't have to pursue it, but if her argument is - for example - "I'm fine with whatever you want so long as you don't forget about me", then I'd be 100% okay with that. Of course it needs to be more nuanced than a single line, but I hope you get my point.
To me, that's similar to choosing to spare or kill the Nightsong. We know the other path exists, and we know it's not quite as romantic (to us, anyhow) but we can avoid it entirely and it's explained why it exists.
I don't see it that way. Regardless of the path you take with her as Selune or Shar you are left with a great degree of confidence that she will not stray from that path in the future. If they rewrite her to better fit as being poly then you do not have that same degree of confidence that she would be happy with a monogamous relationship so no, that is not good enough for me. I do no want my character to have a poly relationship with Shadowheart. I do no want her to want a poly relationship while in a relationship with my character. As things stand right now there is always that thought in the back of your mind that she would eventually want to open things up and I hate that. If the game ever gets updated with some supposed definitive edition, DLC, a free patch, or what have you if that is the direction they go with her I will not be buying it and I will never buy another Larian game again. I will accept nothing less than the option to have her say she would be happy with your character, and only your character, for the rest of their lives.
I don't see it that way. Regardless of the path you take with her as Selune or Shar you are left with a great degree of confidence that she will not stray from that path in the future. If they rewrite her to better fit as being poly then you do not have that same degree of confidence that she would be happy with a monogamous relationship so no, that is not good enough for me. I do no want my character to have a poly relationship with Shadowheart. I do no want her to want a poly relationship while in a relationship with my character. As things stand right now there is always that thought in the back of your mind that she would eventually want to open things up and I hate that. If the game ever gets updated with some supposed definitive edition, DLC, a free patch, or what have you if that is the direction they go with her I will not be buying it and I will never buy another Larian game again. I will accept nothing less than the option to have her say she would be happy with your character, and only your character, for the rest of their lives.
I do agree that it has to be done with serious care. Certainly more than what they've shown the subject thus far, just look at poor Halsin. And therefore I agree that they are better off not doing it, because it would require a lot of resources that would be better spent elsewhere. I'd rather they just add a poly relationship from the start to an origin companion that is added as DLC, or added into their next game. But if they somehow found themselves to have inhumane levels of inspiration to write it properly, I wouldn't deny them the chance if I could (which I can't anyway, obviously). And I think if done properly, it wouldn't retract from her mono story. But that's a very optimistic way of looking at it.
As for definitive editions, they did make those for their previous two titles. I never played D:OS without and I never played D:OS2 with, so I don't know how much those changed. I do know D:OS2 had a very lackluster final act on release, similar to BG3. While D:OS (with the definitive edition) felt more finished, even if it was a smaller game because they had a much smaller team at the time.
For now though, just look at what is actually in her main romance story to help you forget these situations. She wants to start a family with you on a remote farm out of town. Which is exactly what you will do after the epilogue, the game says as much. She wouldn't even be able to open up the relationship there, because there's nobody else around. But that's obvious, because we know she doesn't want to - again, the game says as much. Let that be your memory of the ending.
For now though, just look at what is actually in her main romance story to help you forget these situations. She wants to start a family with you on a remote farm out of town. Which is exactly what you will do after the epilogue, the game says as much. She wouldn't even be able to open up the relationship there, because there's nobody else around. But that's obvious, because we know she doesn't want to - again, the game says as much. Let that be your memory of the ending.
You may or may not be right about that, but I personally find the "out of sight out of mind" mindset hard to adapt to, but let's see. I also hope by fixing Halsin by extension fixes Shadowheart, at least to the point the weird dialogue between them no longer exists.
I would absolutely love if they gave us an ending where they showed Tav and SH on their farm, with Scratch, the owlbear and various other animals, and her parents if you saved them. Maybe they could do something with the githyanki egg too (if you take it) because it would be hilarious, yet heartwarming seeing SH raise a gith child, considering how she was before lol Perhaps they also have a baby already or on the way. Either way, it would be such a beautiful family moment. As far as I'm aware, SH never says she wants anything more than this. So she should get what she truly wants and deserves. Us getting to see it would make it so much more meaningful.
It wouldn't be enough for me to buy their future games, but this would be better than nothing.
For now though, just look at what is actually in her main romance story to help you forget these situations. She wants to start a family with you on a remote farm out of town. Which is exactly what you will do after the epilogue, the game says as much. She wouldn't even be able to open up the relationship there, because there's nobody else around. But that's obvious, because we know she doesn't want to - again, the game says as much. Let that be your memory of the ending.
You may or may not be right about that, but I personally find the "out of sight out of mind" mindset hard to adapt to, but let's see. I also hope by fixing Halsin by extension fixes Shadowheart, at least to the point the weird dialogue between them no longer exists.
On the other note, act1 is a perfect time for some bear hunting Uh, oops, that bear who I totally didn't know was halsin, turned out to be Halsin? I'm soo sorry.
I would absolutely love if they gave us an ending where they showed Tav and SH on their farm, with Scratch, the owlbear and various other animals, and her parents if you saved them. Maybe they could do something with the githyanki egg too (if you take it) because it would be hilarious, yet heartwarming seeing SH raise a gith child, considering how she was before lol Perhaps they also have a baby already or on the way. Either way, it would be such a beautiful family moment. As far as I'm aware, SH never says she wants anything more than this. So she should get what she truly wants and deserves. Us getting to see it would make it so much more meaningful.
It wouldn't be enough for me to buy their future games, but this would be better than nothing.
That would truly force a very heteronormative view with core family values upon the player. My Tav is a woman, where did this baby come from? (I am not sure I even want to know!) And not everyone sees a Jane Austen fantasy as their dream relationship. Yes, Shadowheart expresses this as a future she would like, but I find her character to be very open minded and receptive to Tav's wishes as well. So I don't think she would force them into a certain lifestyle. I think it's best to leave certain things unknown so the player can paint their own picture of their future. Sure you could put a bunch of flags and checks that only leads to this ending under very specific conditions, but that seems like a lot of work and their track record with implementing flags and checks properly isn't exactly stellar.
I am not accusing you of any bigotry or anything, I don't think you meant it with any sort of malice. It just shows how these norms are so prevalent and can unintentionally exclude minorities and other people.
Please read carefully, part "Maybe they could do something with the githyanki egg too (if you take it) because it would be hilarious, yet heartwarming seeing SH raise a gith child..."
I'm literally a lesbian. I've read there's a way for lesbians to have a biological child together in 5e. This world is full of magic so I don't see why it can't be possible.
Maybe they could do something with the githyanki egg too (if you take it) because it would be hilarious, yet heartwarming seeing SH raise a gith child, considering how she was before lol
You can convince the caretaker of the Gith egg to hand it over to you for a better future (the Creche were planning to eliminate it, but he was the last of his clutch so he had a soft spot for latecomers). He'll ask you what your plans with it are, and if you tell him you'll raise it as your own flesh and blood, Shadowheart will approve.
Pretty much settles that she'd be completely fine with that! After all, if she approves of you doing that, and she becomes your spouse, then she'll automatically be part of that too.
I'm literally a lesbian. I've read there's a way for lesbians to have a biological child together in 5e. This world is full of magic so I don't see why it can't be possible.
Ok, I suppose Shadowheart has one use of Divine Intervention and that would certainly be a very sweet thing to save it for.
But it's still a bit restrictive in terms of how narrow this version of their future relationship is. Like I said, I am not against it for some players if it is written for them. Just that it could feel unsatisfying for others so then make it an option related to player choice.
Oh I usually leave my group behind to get to the egg, without them walking threw traps like the dummies they are, so I didn't know she approves! I love this!
I'm literally a lesbian. I've read there's a way for lesbians to have a biological child together in 5e. This world is full of magic so I don't see why it can't be possible.
Ok, I suppose Shadowheart has one use of Divine Intervention and that would certainly be a very sweet thing to save it for.
But it's still a bit restrictive in terms of how narrow this version of their future relationship is. Like I said, I am not against it for some players if it is written for them. Just that it could feel unsatisfying for others so then make it an option related to player choice.
Fair enough. Perhaps they could give a few options for players to choose from. Getting a cutscene that actually shows where they go and what happens to them would be so nice though.
That would truly force a very heteronormative view with core family values upon the player. My Tav is a woman, where did this baby come from? (I am not sure I even want to know!) And not everyone sees a Jane Austen fantasy as their dream relationship. Yes, Shadowheart expresses this as a future she would like, but I find her character to be very open minded and receptive to Tav's wishes as well. So I don't think she would force them into a certain lifestyle. I think it's best to leave certain things unknown so the player can paint their own picture of their future. Sure you could put a bunch of flags and checks that only leads to this ending under very specific conditions, but that seems like a lot of work and their track record with implementing flags and checks properly isn't exactly stellar.
I am not accusing you of any bigotry or anything, I don't think you meant it with any sort of malice. It just shows how these norms are so prevalent and can unintentionally exclude minorities and other people.
It's an interesting thought, because there's still the matter of the (bugged, imo) dialogue options that update which are only available once eventually updating to her essentially asking you to "get her in a family way". And since it takes an entire playthrough of not asking her the question (that's available the second you meet her on the beach) before you have it updated to that, nobody seems to know if this dialogue changes based on Tav's gender.
Because if it doesn't, then the game seems to follow the 5e rule that lesbians can have children (according to Backinstyle, but I believe him her (5 hour late edit, misgendered, sorry!)! I'm no expert on the matter). Which is actually relevant for Karlach and Lae'zel too (I know Lae'zel can't bear children, but I don't recall if that was a permanent thing, and besides, Tav still can unless you roleplay one that can't).
Edit: There is the matter of a Gondian lesbian couple that has a child as well, but it's not explained if that was through adoption or not, since it's not really a big talking point while they're being oppressed.
No I think you can go with women in a lesbian relationship having children. Gods and magic can certainly explain it. I wasn't expanding my mind far enough to think of that when I responded (I stopped at thinking that modern science wasn't available in Faerun so it wouldn't be possible that way).
I have a question. Does the flirting banter with Halsin or orgy scenes you get with Shadowheart appear if you have her on her Dark Justiciar route (Black hair Act 3)? I saw that you can still get a happy ending with her if you save her parents, which is why I'm asking. That and I couldn't find those scenes with her as a Dark Justiciar on Youtube, which is ironic lmao.
I have a question. Does the flirting banter with Halsin or orgy scenes you get with Shadowheart appear if you have her on her Dark Justiciar route (Black hair Act 3)? I saw that you can still get a happy ending with her if you save her parents, which is why I'm asking. That and I couldn't find those scenes with her as a Dark Justiciar on Youtube, which is ironic lmao.
The flirting, at least the way it plays out right now, will not happen because you never get the skinny dipping scene as Dark Justiciar. In fact, you get no romance scene at all if you save her parents as Dark Justiciar (officially the full romance path with the least amount of romance scenes, with only 1), but I do not know if she'll accept the drow twins regardless.
It's honestly not even that ironic, but actually in character. Sharrans aren't encouraged to have sex for pleasure, that's stated during her entire "romance" path as Dark Justiciar in act 3, and it's why you get none despite her loving you until she finds an elaborate excuse to do so "oops, forgot the feast but have to feast to complete this ritual for Shar, guess you'll have to be my feast". The only time this is stated otherwise is during the Mizora scene, which, being a complete contradiction to an entire story arc, is just false and it's part of why I consider that scene as bad as it is.
I think you can still get a happy ending anyway, which is what's important.
Not as happy as the same outcome (save parents) when you spare the Nightsong, I'd say. But I might be reading too much into things with this.
At the point where she's about to turn on Shar on her own accord - for you - you instead push her to remain loyal - push her away from you (eventhough you don't really know that at the time, she does, it's why she's been doubting about becoming a Dark Justiciar in the first place). Because of this, neither of the chats about being together forever after happen (the one straight after Nightsong & the one when entering the Lower City in act 3). It makes the epilogue dialogue when saving her parents make a lot more sense; she's never confirmed with you that you're actually planning to stay with her. All she knows is that when she was ready to devote herself to you, you instead made her devote herself to Shar.
Unless this chat happens after you save her parents as Dark Justiciar, I don't actually know about that.
Yeah that's still a bummer now that I thought about it more. However, you can still get a happily ever after together if Dark Justiciar Shadowheart saves her parents, it seems. Just won't be as happy as it could have been. Here's the youtube video:
Yeah that's still a bummer now that I thought about it more. However, you can still get a happily ever after together if Dark Justiciar Shadowheart saves her parents, it seems. Just won't be as happy as it could have been. Here's the youtube video:
Yup, it's a very slightly tweaked version of the same dialogue as you get with the Selune path. It really seems to have been written for the Dark Justiciar version, which is why it makes little sense for her Selune path, because there you've already confirmed twice before that you'll join her.
If there is choice Nightsong or Halsin, I'd kill Halsin every freaking time. Also I love her look with silver hair(I've heard somewhere though that she is supposed to be silver-haired instantly after the shadowfell, because Shar have tortured her till her hair turned white).
If there is choice Nightsong or Halsin, I'd kill Halsin every freaking time. Also I love her look with silver hair(I've heard somewhere though that she is supposed to be silver-haired instantly after the shadowfell, because Shar tortured her till her hair turn white).
I thought it might be related to her turning into a Cleric of Selune, because the game says she's now empowered by Selune (in the dialogue after the Nightsong), but that's certainly possible. She went through a lot while leaving the Shadowfell, Shar did not hold punches based on how she explains it. The pain that poor girl suffered just to be with Tav (and to rid herself of Shar's influence, of course).
All the more reason to believe the inconsistent interactions should be removed/changed, I'd say!
Yeah, hopefully more people notice so that there can be a change taking place. Come on 50k people, where you at?
It's been said before but I have no faith in anything being changed because this is not an issue to the overwhelming majority of players. Once again the discussion was brought up in their Discord and once again met with nothing but personal insults and belittlement for daring to have an opinion opposite of theirs. And this is what happens every time it's discussed on Reddit or Discord yet people here can manage to be civilized. Like the argument with KillerRabbit that went on for 5 pages sure a lot of people repeating themselves but nobody was insulting each other.
Yeah, hopefully more people notice so that there can be a change taking place. Come on 50k people, where you at?
It's been said before but I have no faith in anything being changed because this is not an issue to the overwhelming majority of players. Once again the discussion was brought up in their Discord and once again met with nothing but personal insults and belittlement for daring to have an opinion opposite of theirs.
Because it makes sense? Pretty much all sides agree that Halsin/SH banter and drow shit are problems. I cant take discord seriously when ppl write shit like:
"I can have a wolf in me"(with their Tav screenshot from Halsin scene), or "why druid have no option to turn into owlbear during Halsin's scene"
. Feedback in discord, on Larian's site and this topic are better indications.
Damn, that's worse than what I got. Although I will say that people on the feedback threads keep bringing this issue up multiple times day from what I've seen, and their votes outnumber the people pushing back against fixing it. But eh, if they don't fix it, this is probably gonna be the last time I buy anything from Larian.
We'll see. To me it looks like a group of ~5 people who post *very* frequently so the length of the thread is no indication of the popularity. Lots of people are upset about Halsin - I don't have much of opinion since I never have space for him the in party anyway. Jaheria is fantastic character and I don't need two druids in a 4 person party.
I'm glad that Netav and have come to some points of agreement but I don't see widespread upset about the foursome with the twins. Most people on reddit seem to think it's funny. I'm not a fan of the subreddit but assure you people over there are NOT upset the the horny scenes in the game.
If Tav wants an cinnamon bun romance that ends with a farmstead why are they hiring sex workers? Just ignore them. Just I ignore the fact that SH can become a Sharran who revels in the murder of Dame Alyin.
We'll see. To me it looks like a group of ~5 people who post *very* frequently so the length of the thread is no indication of the popularity. Lots of people are upset about Halsin - I don't have much of opinion since I never have space for him the in party anyway. Jaheria is fantastic character and I don't need two druids in a 4 person party.
I'm glad that Netav and have come to some points of agreement but I don't see widespread upset about the foursome with the twins. Most people on reddit seem to think it's funny. I'm not a fan of the subreddit but assure you people over there are NOT upset the the horny scenes in the game.
If Tav wants an cinnamon bun romance that ends with a farmstead why are they hiring sex workers? Just ignore them. Just I ignore the fact that SH can become a Sharran who revels in the murder of Dame Alyin.
More of Halsin problem in drows-twin scene. Scene itself is alright I guess.
Yes I do think lots of people are upset with Halsin. I think that might get changed. Again, don't really have an opinion since I never travel or talk to Halsin.
We'll see. To me it looks like a group of ~5 people who post *very* frequently so the length of the thread is no indication of the popularity. Lots of people are upset about Halsin - I don't have much of opinion since I never have space for him the in party anyway. Jaheria is fantastic character and I don't need two druids in a 4 person party.
I'm glad that Netav and have come to some points of agreement but I don't see widespread upset about the foursome with the twins. Most people on reddit seem to think it's funny. I'm not a fan of the subreddit but assure you people over there are NOT upset the the horny scenes in the game.
If Tav wants an cinnamon bun romance that ends with a farmstead why are they hiring sex workers? Just ignore them. Just I ignore the fact that SH can become a Sharran who revels in the murder of Dame Alyin.
Its not the 4some by itself that people have a problem with, tho I can only speak on why its a problem as a Halsin fan. Im not gonna go into it as it may not be appropriate for this thread but its not the scene in and of itself that we take issue with.
Only about 48% of players have left act 1 and only about a 1/3 have left act 2, according to steam. So most people haven't even reached act 3 at all and have no idea about any of this, unless they look at spoilers anyway.
Imagine someone goes up to them and is like: "Are you planning to play as monogamous and have Shadowheart as your character's love interest? Boy do I have something to show you!"
Yeah lol I feel like most ppl are going to want monogamy, so it's likely they aren't going to react well, especially when they actually experience it firsthand.
And while a handful of us do post regularly, there have been many who have come and went. Even the original creator of the thread sometimes pops back in and leaves for a while.
I had one of the highest upvoted feedback posts on discord recently, so ppl do care, even if they don't spend their time on this forum.
But then I also wouldn't be surprised if ppl like that this is part porn game, as many are quite shallow. The funny thing is that it isn't even good porn too, it's just fade to black lmao
I'm glad that Netav and have come to some points of agreement but I don't see widespread upset about the foursome with the twins. Most people on reddit seem to think it's funny. I'm not a fan of the subreddit but assure you people over there are NOT upset the the horny scenes in the game.
I've seen Reddit on both sides of the fence.
Speaking of Netav, I wonder if they changed their stance regarding Halsin being - at best - a fling without explanation of why only he is a fling and not the rest of the cast? Because that's about the only Halsin-related thing the two of you seemed to agree on, and they haven't gotten to reply with their thoughts on the following, but it's been buried a few pages back now:
Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh
2. This is mainly for Netav. I'm afraid that while you prefer to read Halsin as a fling, the game doesn't seem to agree. I completely forgot about this previously when talking about it but don't forget that Halsin will actually be considered a romance partner after your sex scene together and you can continue kissing him all the way until the end. You can also break up with him. He becomes no different than any other romance, so there is no fling, it's actual romance. If that wasn't enough, the writers themselves called him poly, so the assumption of him being a fling because nothing else except "this is an inconsistency" would explain why she would accept him and not the others is unfortunately false until they change their stance, change the dialogue, and make it an actual fling (remove the romance trigger after your sex scene together, so you don't get romance specific dialogue with him).
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
If Tav wants an cinnamon bun romance that ends with a farmstead why are they hiring sex workers? Just ignore them. Just I ignore the fact that SH can become a Sharran who revels in the murder of Dame Alyin.
So long as the inconsistency exists, I will have a problem with it. I do not intend to actually engage with it, though, I just dislike inconsistencies. It's a pet peeve if you will.
Though as others have said, the Halsin part is an unavoidable problem in some cases and does need to be removed.
Because it's inconsistency or my "headcanon" fling(Him freaking out from the word "relationship" kinda supports that, not to mention inconsistency around other companions, as SH won't agree for Tav to be with anyone else, she cuts it instantly, without any elaboration). Thats why I think this way. Rabbit headcanon is wine dialogue hinting at "poly in the future maybe" and her wanting "nesting partner" first(thats why in his headcanon she refuses poly as she sees 5 origins to threaten her relationship with Tav). I disagree, because to me its obvious that she just wants you alone for that bottle and first date. It doesn't end up in sex aswell. So is her poly proposal denials, there is nothing that indicates her wanting "nesting partner", if you propose Gale to her as poly partner, there is "why let monogamy get in our way" line - she refuses again. Wyll response, etc. I don't overthink it. He just reads this way with his headcanon and its consistent in all 3 acts. My headcanon lets story by sorta consistent(I know that you disagree) and let her relationship with Tav be "open mogonamy" more or less. We agreed to disagree, everyone has right to read situation how they want basically.
Well i actually never Bring Halsin to act 3 becouse i never need of him i actually wish they add a option for me to save the Grove and the Shadowcurse and REFUSE him to came to act 3.. No dude yu wanted to save the Kid !? now stay with him. in my games i always left him on act 2 becouse i never went to speak with him again after the party (becouse i actually hate him.) or i always treat him the worst way i can so he can never like me..huahauhauha
"She approves and gets inspired if you let the priest beat you and you get the blessing, too. She knows what she likes."
Here's a post that could be in this thread - 6 upvotes.
Quote
I feel like it doesn’t match her personality to not care when you bang mizora for example, she seems to be against poly relationships so why does she just say whatevs? Idk but it feels like a lapse in judgement in her characters writing.
Again, I don't like the subreddit and don't think it's truly representative of the opinions of BG3 fans because the mods delete critical threads. But we are JUST talking about the mood on the subreddit about 1600 redditors found that scene funny and I've not seen a "what's up with SH and poly" thread take off.
Perhaps you've seen a thread I haven't but reactions over there confirm the opinion I come to here:
"SH is really mono" / "SH should be mono only" is the opinion of highly engaged, vocal minority.
How do you not bring him to act 3? Do you just kill him? Because there's no dialogue to refuse him joining, and if you just leave the convo as he proposes to join, he just shows up at my camp anyway.
Their half assed attempt with him in act 3 just seems like a waste of time and money too. And in act 2 they could have had Jaheira do the shadow curse quest. Like when you really think about it, they could remove Halsin from the game entirely and it wouldn't make much difference. Sorry to Halsin fans maybe reading this, but it's kinda true, he's pretty irrelevant tbh.
Oh he's in camp. So is Mizorra. But they both just sit there. I never talk to them and I don't take them with me. Jaheria joins me at the end of chapter 2 and don't need another druid.
Sometime I take a swing at Mizorra to make Lae'zel and Wyll happy.
Honestly at this point, they should just add dialogue with SH(and other romanced companions) about setting up boundaries and what you expect in your relationship. Shadowheart is flexible so you should be able to chose both routes(mono and poly) and she should be ok with that. That way both groups of ppl would be happy. Maybe also change her reactions to certain situations(like mizora for example) based on chosen "route".
I propose beating his ass with fists till he leaves on free will. Every 3rd hit inflicts -10 approval, he leaves at -50. Heal and beat heal and beat(sounds a bit too kinky, especially if SH the one that heals him...)
Honestly at this point, they should just add dialogue with SH(and other romanced companions) about setting up boundaries and what you expect in your relationship. Shadowheart is flexible so you should be able to chose both routes(mono and poly) and she should be ok with that. That way both groups of ppl would be happy. Maybe also change her reactions to certain situations(like mizora for example) based on chosen "route".
That would be a good addition to the game - a discussion about the bounds of the relationship
Oh sure. I agree that lots of people are disappointed with Halsin. But I was talking about SH
That's 7000k ppl that don't care for Halsin, so that means they don't care for his poly stuff or anything about it him really. So, they're not actively for or against the drow scenes, but they certainly wouldn't care if the drow scenes disappeared lol
There are a lot of horny young ppl on reddit though. It's pretty sad how desperate they are, if a fade to black scene gets them so excited lol Like if you want porn, just play an actual porn game. This isn't like Dragon Age or Mass Effect where the sex scenes are done well and are romantic (at least for the ones I seen).
Even the normal sex scenes we get are done well in BG3. The porn stuff just sticks out and looks so gimmicky. All of it just looks like a joke tbh. I don't even think they want us to take it seriously because how could anyone? They have that weird ass bear scene too lmfao
Just Avoid him at act two and never Do his quest in act 2 then he will never follow yu to act 3 yu even get a chance to actually talk to him after the boss battle and say strait to his face.. the Shadowcurse was always your stuff not mine so see ya loser..hauhauhauhauahuha feells so great man.. i never cured the shadowcurse after the fist time i did becouse i really dont need him in my game for nothing..he is just Useless becouse yu will get the Better Druid just Seconds after unlocking him.. i actually never understood why he is a companion he should always be only a NPC in act 1 i would rather have anyother thiefling as companion then him. from the First time i speak with him when i save him i just hate him.. dont know i just dont like the dude and druids grove from the Get Go. i really wish i had a option to only save the Thieflings i tried a Lot to let him die and yu only save the thieflings but never find a Way.. the Best way to avoid him coming to act 3 is just never do his quest on act 2 or speak with him again after the party. BtW yu can actually be a Bad Guy and tell him the dude yu wake up for his quest after the boss too but the dude is already dead and he will react in not a good way.. really fun hahaha i really enjoy make him hate me in the game. RS
Honestly at this point, they should just add dialogue with SH(and other romanced companions) about setting up boundaries and what you expect in your relationship. Shadowheart is flexible so you should be able to chose both routes(mono and poly) and she should be ok with that. That way both groups of ppl would be happy. Maybe also change her reactions to certain situations(like mizora for example) based on chosen "route".
SH isn't "flexible" until Act 3 though. Again, it's inconsistent with how a lot of ppl view her character in acts 1 and 2, so it would look like they're retconning her. Most ppl don't like retcons, in most cases.
Though I suppose in act 3 she already is retconned. So either way, Larian has shitty writing.
That's 7000k ppl that don't care for Halsin, so that means they don't care for his poly stuff or anything about it him really.
Yeah didn't care for the bear scene either. But that's a bad inference -- I've seen plenty of poly people and poly friendly sorts say they are dissatisfied with Halsin. Halsin isn't SH.
Last I looked 1 in 9 people are ENM support for poly people increases every year. We're at tipping point and soon prejudice against poly people will viewed in the same light as prejudice against LGBT folk
Honestly at this point, they should just add dialogue with SH(and other romanced companions) about setting up boundaries and what you expect in your relationship. Shadowheart is flexible so you should be able to chose both routes(mono and poly) and she should be ok with that. That way both groups of ppl would be happy. Maybe also change her reactions to certain situations(like mizora for example) based on chosen "route".
SH isn't "flexible" until Act 3 though. Again, it's inconsistent with how a lot of ppl view her character in acts 1 and 2, so it would look like they're retconning her. Most ppl don't like retcons, in most cases.
Though I suppose in act 3 she already is retconned. So either way, Larian has shitty writing.
Just Avoid him at act two and never Do his quest in act 2 then he will never follow yu to act 3 yu even get a chance to actually talk to him after the boss battle and say strait to his face.. the Shadowcurse was always your stuff not mine so see ya loser..hauhauhauhauahuha feells so great man.. i never cured the shadowcurse after the fist time i did becouse i really dont need him in my game for nothing..he is just Useless becouse yu will get the Better Druid just Seconds after unlocking him.. i actually never understood why he is a companion he should always be only a NPC in act 1 i would rather have Althira or any other as companion then him.. from the First time i speak with him when i save him i just hate him.. dont know i just dont like dude and druid groves from the Get Go.
I suppose that's one way to do it lol I would just kill him in act 1 immediately if I'm not going to bother with the shadow curse. I agree, they could have spent the time and money on an actually good companion that isn't useless. Alfira would have been awesome.
You're really confusing me. It's like you can't make up your mind on it. Like one minute you say it's "kinky and a fling", then another you're like agreeing that it's mono. So I dunno if you're just trolling? But this back and forth is giving me whiplash.
Either you believe she is mono or she isn't. Which is it?
Does anyone know how the feedback thread works? I can't react to some of them, specifically the ones talking about the Shadowheart/Halsin issues. Does this mean our problems were noticed? I don't think I'm gonna get my hopes up about it too much, however.
You're really confusing me. It's like you can't make up your mind on it. Like one minute you say it's "kinky and a fling", then another you're like agreeing that it's mono. So I dunno if you're just trolling? But this back and forth is giving me whiplash.
Either you believe she is mono or she isn't. Which is it?
I have 2 interpretations: 1.) She is in "open monogamy" with Tav and it is "sorta" consistent through the story if you only consider Halsin as a fling(He doesn't even like when Tav asks about relationship, the word I mean). 2.) She is full mono with inconsisteny in writing to let all the kinky act 3 staff in. Some companions had to be "shoehorned" into this to justify these activities(Astarion, SH and Karlach were the choice, sadly).
INDEEED ALFIRA FOR SURE MAN>> Jesus WHY 2 druids Larian WHYYYYYYYYY ??!?!?!?! he is so Useless for gods sake.. i actually kill him in act 1 too a lot of times when he is in bear form trying to only save the thieflings but never find a way..hauhauhauha did anyone managed ? if so please share with me huahauhauha
That's 7000k ppl that don't care for Halsin, so that means they don't care for his poly stuff or anything about it him really.
Yeah didn't care for the bear scene either. But that's a bad inference -- I've seen plenty of poly people and poly friendly sorts say they are dissatisfied with Halsin. Halsin isn't SH.
Last I looked 1 in 9 people are ENM support for poly people increases every year. We're at tipping point and soon prejudice against poly people will viewed in the same light as prejudice against LGBT folk
And that's great, but it still doesn't change the fact that most ppl could care less about it in the game, based on the upvotes. SH isn't poly unless Halsin is around though, so without him in game, she would only ever be considered mono for the whole game. Take Halsin out and she has no one to do poly with. Sex with the drow twins don't really count I think, as it's just random prostitutes and not sex with someone you know. So I don't think SH makes for good poly representation, because she only is in this one instance with Halsin and done very poorly.
Here we get into the problem of definitions. Relationships are complex in your view people can be monogamous but have foursomes with sex workers - I would call that 'monogamish' which is a type of ENM.
Also seems to be Netav's view. I prefer to think of SH as someone who wants a nesting partner because he has a strong desire for home and hearth. And some fun at the local druid grove if Tav is okay with it. I think the FR equivalent of Saturnalia is mid-winter fest and something tell me SH will want to attend.
You're really confusing me. It's like you can't make up your mind on it. Like one minute you say it's "kinky and a fling", then another you're like agreeing that it's mono. So I dunno if you're just trolling? But this back and forth is giving me whiplash.
Either you believe she is mono or she isn't. Which is it?
I have 2 interpretations: 1.) She is in "open monogamy" with Tav and it is "sorta" consistent through the story if you only consider Halsin as a fling(He doesn't even like when Tav asks about relationship, the word I mean). 2.) She is full mono with inconsisteny in writing to let all the kinky act 3 staff in. Some companions had to be "shoehorned" into this to justify these activities(Astarion, SH and Karlach were the choice, sadly).
But where does she ever state or even imply that she's in "open monogamy" with Tav? Why would Halsins lack of interest in open relationship only affect her and Astarion (Karlach doesn't actually join in on this I believe)? Do they ever mention Halsin' openness as an excuse for them being into poly? Why does Halsins relationship preference have anything to do with SH or Astarion? Neither of them care in solo Halsin romance and I've never heard of Origin SH or Astarion being into him either. Why is she suddenly into him when she never expresses this throughout the whole rest of the game? Why him? Why is she not okay with Karlach or anyone else?
Here we get into the problem of definitions. Relationships are complex in your view people can be monogamous but have foursomes with sex workers - I would call that 'monogamish' which is a type of ENM.
Also seems to be Netav's view. I prefer to think of SH as someone who wants a nesting partner because he has a strong desire for home and hearth. And some fun at the local druid grove if Tav is okay with it. I think the FR equivalent of Saturnalia is mid-winter fest and something tell me SH will want to attend.
Open monogamy is a type of relationship that has its roots in traditional monogamy, but with a twist. In a traditional monogamous relationship, both partners agree to be exclusive and committed to each other. There’s no room for any type of romantic or sexual relationship with anyone else.
However, in an open monogamous relationship, both partners agree to be committed to each other while allowing for a level of openness. This means that both partners are open to the possibility of having romantic or sexual relationships with other people, but only within certain boundaries.
These boundaries can vary from couple to couple and can include rules such as always using protection, not developing emotional attachments to other partners, or only engaging in sexual activities with others together as a couple. Open monogamy requires a high level of communication and trust between partners to ensure that both parties feel comfortable and respected in the relationship.
Here we get into the problem of definitions. Relationships are complex in your view people can be monogamous but have foursomes with sex workers - I would call that 'monogamish' which is a type of ENM.
Also seems to be Netav's view. I prefer to think of SH as someone who wants a nesting partner because he has a strong desire for home and hearth. And some fun at the local druid grove if Tav is okay with it. I think the FR equivalent of Saturnalia is mid-winter fest and something tell me SH will want to attend.
What I meant is, that the drow twins are a one time deal, you aren't joining a relationship with them, so it doesn't count as polyamory. Halsin is the only character that SH and Tav can have a poly/open relationship with. Why is that? SH doesn't even like him in act 2 and never expresses any interest in him prior, so it feels so shoehorned in. It doesn't look like very good poly representation tbh.
(SH doesn't even like him in act 2 and never expresses any interest in him prior, so it feels so shoehorned in.) Man yu just said what iv been thinking the entire time whaching this post.. in my game the Only time i actually did his quest and bring him along in the party the only banters i get with then both were like she and Laezel she even Mock hin in the middle of the shadowcurse when he talks about animals she mock hin teling him that she can make some birds noises man that make me laught so hard..hauhauh and i dont know maybe it was becouse i never treat him well in my game so he never liked me to propose nothing.. and i was already super high aproval with her but what yu said is what i felt she actually dosent like him in act 2 then in act 3 she sudenly want a 5 some with the dude she even mock weird.. and they actually get some heavy arguing in Shar gountlet when she starts speak her Stuff he really get pissed off and even say yu dont know what yure are talking about children or something like that. Felt like she and Laezel at the start of the Game..
I know he was so annoying in the gauntlet of Shar, in my first playthrough. Like my Tav ain't a big fan of Shar either but Halsin shouldnt belittle SH like that. I was ready to off him right then and there. Don't speak to my lover like that weird bear freak lol She hated him.
And then she does a complete 180 in act 3? Which is like 3 days later lol I don't buy it, not one bit. It's never shown if they bury the hatchet so it feels completely forced.
Indeed.. i felt the Same Thing.. theres something weird as F in all of this.. there another things that i think is weird for the character too like the 4 some.. for the entire game she dosent even want to share a Bottle of wine in the party with the rest becouse whant yu just for her..then she is ok with a 4 some.. in my game when i get there i always never had the romance scene with her so the Reaction is different and i Liked a LOOOOOOOT more.. she said straight in your face that she want yu only at least for the first time.. so she dosent want to have the 4 some but she will acept if yu want later.. but i never get back to drakos pass so in my game i never had to deal with these weird stuff.. i actually found all weird interactions Online BTW sorry for my Poor english thats not my first language so im trying my best..Rs
You might interested to read the account of monogamish woman who hires sex workers.
The idea that marriage about safety and security and once you have those basic needs met you can get other needs met. That's why the 'no to sharing' at the party and no to twins 'until we've been together' makes sense. SH needs to feel secure in the relationship, to feel like she is first in Tav's heart and *then* involving others sounds fun
You're viewing it the way most of us here have as well. The 4 some and orgy, feel very out of place, for SH as a character. Like it completely felt like it came out of nowhere.
It's okay, you're doing pretty well for someone who's English isn't their first language. I'm able to understand you quite well.
You might interested to read the account of monogamish woman who hires sex workers.
The idea that marriage about safety and security and once you have those basic needs met you can get other needs met. That's why the 'no to sharing' at the party and no to twins 'until we've been together' makes sense. SH needs to feel secure in the relationship, to feel like she is first in Tav's heart and *then* involving others sounds fun
Apparently she's willing to let you sleep with Halsin before you've slept with her though. So I'm not sure you're argument holds up when he's involved. She'll refuse the twins saying she wants you first but has no issues with letting Halsin have you first. It's weird.
Maybe yu are right and im wrong.. but i still think that this is weird.. dosent really make sense for her character but ok.. felt shoehorn like Backinstyle said.. i always get the feeling that she Hate halsin in my games the she want a 5 some with the dude that she mocked and had almost a fight inside the char gountlet.. weird but its ok.. in my game he never get to act 3 so i never have to deal with this kinda stuff.. my game runs as i wanted and i love it..huahauha he probably dead in the shadowcurse in my Timeline.. actually in all of then he died.. sorry halsin i dont have any love for yu.. he only have hate from me.. huahauhauha and the only time i saved Orin get him.. and i only saved him for last..RS sorry halsin i really dont care if orin kill yu
You might interested to read the account of monogamish woman who hires sex workers.
The idea that marriage about safety and security and once you have those basic needs met you can get other needs met. That's why the 'no to sharing' at the party and no to twins 'until we've been together' makes sense. SH needs to feel secure in the relationship, to feel like she is first in Tav's heart and *then* involving others sounds fun
Drows is the different scenario though, because party doesn't end in sex or anything. Drows are just sex workers and she does it with Tav obviously. She is just kinky and ok with some casual sex and ok if Tav wants some, just a reminder that she doesn't ask or do herself, she is fine with only Tav, she joins drows if asked. Thats why I consider her in "open monogamy" with Tav. And yes she basically proposes marriage at her lower city confession.
If they fix Halsin interactions - everything would fit.
You might interested to read the account of monogamish woman who hires sex workers.
The idea that marriage about safety and security and once you have those basic needs met you can get other needs met. That's why the 'no to sharing' at the party and no to twins 'until we've been together' makes sense. SH needs to feel secure in the relationship, to feel like she is first in Tav's heart and *then* involving others sounds fun
Drows is the different scenario though, because party doesn't end in sex or anything. Drows are just sex workers and she does it with Tav obviously. She is just kinky and ok with some casual sex and ok if Tav wants some, just a reminder that she doesn't ask or do herself, she is fine with only Tav, she joins drows if asked. Thats why I consider her in "open monogamy" with Tav. And yes she basically proposes marriage at her lower city confession.
If they fix Halsin interactions - everything would fit.
It's like you have her romance with Tav and only Tav throughout the whole game, then there's this weird fetish fan fiction section tacked into it.
If they wanted her to be polyamorous they should have made it clear from the beginning. And they should have added options for lesbians and straight men. Not this half assed attempt at polyamory that has left a lot of SH and Halsin fans disappointed, confused, and even disgusted at times. It's treated as a gimmick.
Larian treats polyamory like garbage in this game, and I dont think we should be defending it here. It's not just a few lines with Halsin. It's the fact that they treat both SH and Halsin as sex dolls/porn stars as soon as polyamory/casual sex gets involved. Is that how they view polyamory or ppl who engage in it? Is this how ppl who play this game will view polyamory? They could have treated it like an adult would, but instead it just looks childish and like they didn't even give a shit.
I agree, Halsin thing needs to be resolved. I don't think they will make her full mono though, requires too much rewriting. I don't think this is a bad thing that she is "open monogamous". She is very clear what she wants and needs and in the end you still will get your happy farm ending with kids etc. Remember that she is happy with your Tav and never asks or does anything on her own(poly related).
I agree, Halsin thing needs to be resolved. I don't think they will make her full mono though, requires too much rewriting. I don't think this is a bad thing that she is "open monogamous". She is very clear what she wants and needs and in the end you still will get your happy farm ending with kids etc. Remember that she is happy with your Tav and never asks or does anything on her own(poly related).
Well I completely disagree and I am not okay with your "open monogamy" take. Without a way to get her to explicitly state that she would only ever want your character if that is what you desire then the door is always open to cheating or her trying to open the relationship herself with the current way she is written.
The bare minimum Larian needs to do is remove the flirting banter between SH and Halsin, remove SH and Halsin disapproval ratings if you deny an orgy, then remove the "I've always had fantasies of Halsin" dialogue completely from the game, period. If I had my way, the poly stuff wouldn't be in the game to begin with (because look how messy this is, there are even poly people complaining about this), like if you cheat, the romance is over for you. But I have no idea how much of the people who bought this game are into that kind of thing.
I agree, Halsin thing needs to be resolved. I don't think they will make her full mono though, requires too much rewriting. I don't think this is a bad thing that she is "open monogamous". She is very clear what she wants and needs and in the end you still will get your happy farm ending with kids etc. Remember that she is happy with your Tav and never asks or does anything on her own(poly related).
She is written as being mono for most of the game though, which you have said you agreed with before. They can't write a character as both monogamous and polyamorous, because they completely contradict one another, with two vastly different relationship views. A character can't be both at the same time and be expected to make sense.
So that's why they should have went all in on one direction, not this laughable attempt to appease both sides. It just doesn't work. Shadowheart is broken.
The only "fix" is to retcon her into being completely one or the other. But if they do that, either way some fans are going to be pissed. They have created such a mess and I don't there's any actual fix where everyone comes out happy. Ppl wouldn't even consider it a fix anyway probably.
I agree, Halsin thing needs to be resolved. I don't think they will make her full mono though, requires too much rewriting. I don't think this is a bad thing that she is "open monogamous". She is very clear what she wants and needs and in the end you still will get your happy farm ending with kids etc. Remember that she is happy with your Tav and never asks or does anything on her own(poly related).
Well I completely disagree and I am not okay with your "open monogamy" take. Without a way to get her to explicitly state that she would only ever want your character if that is what you desire then the door is always open to cheating or her trying to open the relationship herself with the current way she is written.
But she never suggest herself and happy with Tav, no ? It's Tav who tehcnically can do it. Bold of you to think that she would cheat(I get where this all coming from, her problematic SH/Halsin banter). She never asks "hey lemme fuck Halsin/Karlach"(or something like that). Thats why I think that would be cool to have a dialogue to state your boundaries and what you want from relationship(tell her that you are exclusive couple as example, I don't think she would have anything against it).
She is written as being mono for most of the game though, which you have said you agreed with before. They can't write a character as both monogamous and polyamorous, because they completely contradict one another, with two vastly different relationship views. A character can't be both at the same time and be expected to make sense.
So that's why they should have went all in on one direction, not this laughable attempt to appease both sides. It just doesn't work. Shadowheart is broken.
Yes and thats why I stated 2 my views on this situation and I like the one where it is wrong and is out of character. Yes she is mono and wants your Tav alone in act 1-2 and does 180 for some reason in act 3(reason is to let Halsin be horndog).
Well that was an interesting read lol. The absolute state of this thread.
At the request of a friend (that is probably laughing her ass of right now) I'm going to pop in this thread for a quick post.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Last I looked 1 in 9 people are ENM support for poly people increases every year. We're at tipping point and soon prejudice against poly people will viewed in the same light as prejudice against LGBT folk
I'm going to ignore the absurdity and the subtle comparison between the LGBT (a sexuality) and Polyamory (a sexual practice) and just going to throw in a few question about the biased research that you have linked. (Seeing how you have a tendency to link biased research/articles when it comes to polyamory.)
Frontiers publishing you say? (not the most reputable place that isn't looked too kindly by many, seeing how they are for-profit despite claiming otherwise.) Research done by the Kinsley Institute you say? (Institute with a clear bias.) Alfred Kinsley you say? Children from birth have orgasm, pedophilia and incest sex benefits children - that Alfred Kinsey? Maybe I should write more about his followers or what this individual has said and done.
"The whole system is designed to publish as many papers as possible", says Matthias Barton of the University of Zürich in Switzerland
"Frontiers has used an in-house journals management software that does not give reviewers the option to recommend the rejection of manuscripts" and the "system is setup to make it almost impossible to reject papers"
In May 2015, Frontiers Media removed the entire editorial boards of Frontiers in Medicine and Frontiers in Cardiovascular Medicine after editors complained that Frontiers Media staff were "interfering with editorial decisions and violating core principles of medical publishing". In total 31 editors were removed. Following this incident, Nature Publishing Group ended its collaboration with Frontiers with the intent "never to mention again that Nature Publishing Group has some kind of involvement in Frontiers."
A demand by Frontiers Media to open a research misconduct case against Beall, to which the University of Colorado acquiesced, is reported as the immediate reason for Beall to take down the list. The university's investigation was closed with no findings.
In an interview in 2018, Beall stated that "my university began to attack me in several ways. They launched a research misconduct investigation against me (after seven months, the result of the investigation was that no misconduct had occurred). They also put an unqualified, mendacious supervisor over me, and he constantly attacked and harassed me. I decided I could no longer safely publish the list with my university threatening me in these ways."
(you'll find that people are split on them, bad but not as bad as MDPI)
The CEO of Frontiers personally threatened a library faculty, Jeffrey Beall, for identifying Frontiers journals as predatory. Filed complaints with his university trying to get him fired. This ended Beall's List, which was widely used by libraries to identify predatory publishers.
As for Kinsley and those that venerate him, well you can read that on your own. (Before someone decides to bring up the good of sex research stop ignoring the horrific parts of it)
-----
Either way, outside of bpudd1ng, Ravenna and Rahaya it seems that the majority of this threads participants (some even becoming a bit too emotional) haven't notices the manipulation tactics and a disingenuous stance Rabbit and another poster have taken in discussing this topic. From outright ignoring arguments, being selective and leaving out details to asserting their own headcanon as a fact behind the veil of 'my interoperation' while accusing others of doing the same, they have it all.
But I will ask this one thing of you, if you would indulge me. Could you write/show me every part of Shadowheart/Shadowhearts story that implies that she is poly? I'm genuinely curious. (fyi despite my dislike for polyamory as a practice, I don't care if someone has decided to dip their toes or entirely submerge themselves in it and to be honest I stopped caring about SH but I see too many people here talking about what they want and not what is in the game or whether is it done properly/shoved in at the last second/contradictory to the established.)
Okay, these forums are - or should be - a friendly place for all fans of the game, whether poly or not, and that’s not up for debate. I do not see that getting into discussions of research into real life attitudes is relevant or likely to end well. Let’s stick to discussing the game.
And negative comments about polyamory in real life are totally unacceptable here. No one should have to come to a gaming forum and face derogatory comments about their sex life.
I’m going to ask that, if there are any more such comments in this thread, then please use the report post functionality and the culprit will be taking a break from these forums, and if this thread continues to attract people making judgemental comments about others’ sexual activity it may even get locked.
If you don’t want that to happen, please express your views in a way that respects that this topic has implications for very personal aspects of people’s real lives.
And while it feels like banging my head against a brick wall at this point, please respect others’ rights to their own interpretations and opinions and recognise when it’s time to agree to disagree rather than going round and round in circles and saying the same things again and again.
I don't see any indications of her being poly pre act 3. Halsin in act 3 and kinda Mizora cheat only(rest of act 3 has no indications obviously). If you were accusing my headcanon, thats it.
And I thank for you kind comments about poly people.
At your request I will avoid any discussions about the quality of research and I'll not link to research articles. I will continue to send links to opinion articles when I think they are relevant to the discussion. In this case I did so because one of the claims made was that a relationship couldn't considered poly / ENM if sex workers were involved. So I thought an article from a married woman who - in consultation with her husband - hired sex workers was relevant to the discussion. We are talking about the game but when claims like "this isn't the way it works" are brought up I thought I think links to pages with definitions aid the conversation and I do think have helped Netav and I come to some points agreement.
I will continue to be very light on the "report" button - as you know I only flag the worst of the worst. (looking at you Dubai call girls) I'm a killer rabbit - most of the time I try to be nice but I can be pretty aggressive when attacked. Calling mods tends to lead to retaliation and the discussion devolves into a game where people goad each other in saying something that could be flagged.
And I appreciate that you are tolerant - if I were to flag something I would Rosten's post. Because I think the claims of "subtle manipulation" are form of trolling. The purpose of which is to invalidate any statement that begins with "in my view" and which I do perceive as an attack since it questions my sincerity and indeed my character. (as you know I have strong feelings about manipulation)
But you were obviously okay with it so I don't want to flag it. Even as I call out @Rosten for playing dirty and acting like an ass.
But, my dear sweet @Rosten I think I've done that repeatedly. SH is okay with Mizorra if you ask, she's okay with Halsin if you ask, she's okay with the twins if you satisfy her criteria. So, if you read the articles I linked your question would answered. I saying you are not ethically non monogamous but you are okay with your partner sleeping with other people under certain conditions is bit like saying you aren't vegan but you don't eat any animal products.
It's intriguing position, one that tells me that you have some reason for avoid the 'vegan' label even if you actions make you - by any / all objective criteria - a vegan.
TL;DR if you have foursomes / fivesomes with your partner, if you give you partner permission to sleep with others you are something other than monogamous and 'poly' works as a catchall.
Not to put you on the spot or in a difficult position ( I really hold no ill will towards you) but you seem to had no issues with multiple attempts to derail the thread with topics and links discussing things that are in no way relevant to the game. No issue at subtle jabs and insults at the 'heteronormative' and the dramatic post and accusations of poly (and its characters) erasure/jealousy. (Not to say that the other side hasn't done the same because they have.) But my response (Which is the same thing they've been doing and they are the ones that brought in real life/sexuality/sexual practices into this thread.) to an individual that has been derailing this thread for multiple pages is where you draw the line?
Both sides have acted childish at times (and I do not agree with all of it) but to say any criticism (or saying that you dislike something - people are allowed not to be a fan or a practitioner of something?) levelled at poly people is an attack or derogatory is a bit disingenuous.
Either way, you have been kind and fair with me so I'll respect your request and leave the topic of sexuality and sexual practices out of this thread or anywhere on these forums.
(If you decide to ban me for this post well, Que Sera, Sera. See you around but don't close the thread at least not yet for the sake of others.)
It's intriguing position, one that tells me that you have some reason for avoid the 'vegan' label even if you actions make you - by any / all objective criteria - a vegan.
TL;DR if you have foursomes / fivesomes with your partner, if you give you partner permission to sleep with others you are something other than monogamous and 'poly' works as a catchall.
You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. Nowhere have I said that I like it or that I have done that. (I know some other posters have shown their distaste for her willingness to share when put into that position by them - the player - but not me) My issue was always with how it was written/handled. That's why I asked you to show me where it is clear that she is poly and not a victim of poor writing/planning.
Very well. Here's one of the three I mentioned. You find the others on youtube.
SH makes it clear that she would have been okay if Tav asked first. Asking first = setting boundaries on the relationship = ethical non monogamy.
Edit: would it have been to have a longer discussion about this in one of the "I want to talk about your relationship" options? Yes. Do I want Larian to revise that in lieu of fixing the end game? Hell no.
But where does she ever state or even imply that she's in "open monogamy" with Tav? Why would Halsins lack of interest in open relationship only affect her and Astarion (Karlach doesn't actually join in on this I believe)? Do they ever mention Halsin' openness as an excuse for them being into poly? Why does Halsins relationship preference have anything to do with SH or Astarion? Neither of them care in solo Halsin romance and I've never heard of Origin SH or Astarion being into him either. Why is she suddenly into him when she never expresses this throughout the whole rest of the game? Why him? Why is she not okay with Karlach or anyone else?
Never, because she isn't. She's full mono in the current state and 5 minutes of optional inconsistent dialogue don't change the 2 hours of writing that envelop it.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Oh sure. I agree that lots of people are disappointed with Halsin. But I was talking about SH
As Backinstyle mentioned, if they fix Halsin they'll largely fix Shadowheart's problem. And people don't like Halsin. The problem only exists because of Halsin's late addition as romance partner. Everything about her writing is mono, because it was written prior to Halsin's addition. They added him late, felt the weird need to turn him into this abomination he is right now and added a few optional dialogues (except his creepy flirting/self insert, which needs removal) to some existing companions to fit Halsin's agenda, not their own. Which is why those inconsistent moments have no consequences otherwise for those companions' overall romance, while Halsin's horribly written romance.. well, has consequences for Halsin's overall romance.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Very well. Here's one of the three I mentioned. You find the others on youtube.
SH makes it clear that she would have been okay if Tav asked first. Asking first = setting boundaries on the relationship = ethical non monogamy.
The fact you can't even force her to break up with you, or even get upset with you, by being the biggest prick in the world shows how badly written and out of character the Mizora scene truly is. And that's ignoring the contradictory statements that are a part of that conversation.
But either way, you're using an optional inconsistency that adds no consequential character development to explain away another optional inconsistency that adds no consequential character development. So long as these choices have no impact on her overall story, are they truly part of it? The answer is no. Because things like this should be reflected in her overall character, but they aren't.
Here's an example: in Smash Bros, you can have Link fight Mario. Does that mean that canonically in either of their story, Link has fought Mario? No. It's not canon, and them having fought in Smash Bros does not change their characters whatsoever. This is the same thing. It's optional - for the lack of a better word - fanfic quality porn content (not Smash Bros, mind), and nothing more.
The other companions are basically just an out of character cameo appearance in Halsin's shit romance.
"But either way, you're using an optional inconsistency"
Three 'inconsistencies' (as you know I argue 4 'inconsistencies' ) sounds like a pattern, don't you think? Is it really inconsistent if it happens three times?
"But either way, you're using an optional inconsistency"
Three 'inconsistencies' (as you know I argue 4 'inconsistencies' ) sounds like a pattern, don't you think? Is it really inconsistent if it happens three times?
Is 5 minutes of inconsequential optional dialogue more than 2 hours of consequential unavoidable dialogue?
You know my position already, right? We've already discussed our differing views on the wine scene and you know I think SH wants a nesting partner so I've answered that question repeatedly. In your view SH is mono in chapers 1-2, in my view we get some foreshadowing / hints that she's open to sharing in the wine scene and that her desire to be first in Tav's heart is not a desire to be monogamous.
I know we are going to disagree but haven't we progressed past the point where you would need to ask me that?
To be clear, I have not read every post in this thread. EDIT: for reasons I hope are clear, given the number of posts there have been since I started to type this post in response to replies to my earlier post above.
I will comment if I happen to see something I think warrants moderator intervention when reviewing active threads, or if someone reports something. It’s not the case that if a moderator doesn’t say something about a post then they think it’s okay, it could simply be they haven’t seen it.
If folk want moderator action then please use the post report functionality, and if they have any issues or questions about moderator guidance they should PM me rather than entering into discussion about it in thread. I am not going to enter into debate here, particularly on potentially sensitive topics.
I will say that apart from the specific things I have called out, and with the same caveat that I’ve not read everything, I have not seen people derailing the thread. I have seen some people saying they think one thing on this topic, and others who think another, and that is okay. I have also seen it going round in circles, but that’s not something any one poster is responsible for. It is open to anyone to take the moral high ground and agree to disagree, and accept that even those with whom they disagree are posting in good faith and are entitled to their views. I have also seen some folk getting frustrated for various reasons, and while I’d prefer they didn’t and we kept things light, friendly and constructive, I also recognise that we’re all human beings (probably!) and there are things about this topic that folk find emotive. As long as we don’t go too far, understand that getting heated or negative will naturally lead to an equal and opposite reaction, and help de-escalate if things get tense, then we’ll be okay.
You know my position already, right? We've already discussed our differing views on the wine scene and you know I think SH wants a nesting partner so I've answered that question repeatedly. In your view SH is mono in chapers 1-2, in my view we get some foreshadowing / hints that she's open to sharing in the wine scene and that her desire to be first in Tav's heart is not a desire to be monogamous.
I know we are going to disagree but haven't we progressed past the point where you would need to ask me that?
Not really, it was a rhetorical question anyway, because the answer is set in stone.
Here's a different question. I wonder how you feel about the fact that she doesn't change to your viewpoint, regardless of these few dialogues implying she might. For some reason, after all's said and done, she remains mono. As if those dialogues never happened. Does it frustrate you any? Don't you just wish you had an ending where you could actually be poly/open with a single companion? The only open companion in the game leaves you, after all.
But this is meta but how to avoid having Halsin in your party while healing the land. Spoilers.
Interact with sleeping man
Find out that man wants the lute - there are a number of different ways
Bring the lute to sleeping man
Talk to Halsin in camp
Return to awakened man.
Help Halsin - who is acting like an NPC - kill the shadows so he can rescue Thaniel
Talk to Halsin in camp
Find Thaniel's dark twin. Persuade the twin to unite with Thaniel
Talk to Halsin in camp.
Never talk to Halsin again.
I shouldn't have to go through these gymnastics in order to avoid a character that could potentially ruin my romance for me. I don't even like Shadowheart (sorry for the blasphemy in this thread), but please, that's ridiculous game design.
Very well. Here's one of the three I mentioned. You find the others on youtube.
SH makes it clear that she would have been okay if Tav asked first. Asking first = setting boundaries on the relationship = ethical non monogamy.
Edit: would it have been to have a longer discussion about this in one of the "I want to talk about your relationship" options? Yes. Do I want Larian to revise that in lieu of fixing the end game? Hell no.
And there we go, scene number 1.
You say that she has no issue with sharing, she even goes as far to say that she isn't looking for 'something loyal and pure, a swan' but isn't happy with you going behind her back (cheating - which surprisingly in this case she is willing to overlook without breaking up unlike with the others.) And yet she rejects sharing with the same line 'the swan' from the player if you were to initiate sharing/poly dialogue concerning other companions/npcs.
'The way I was raised, the way I was trained...well. It was positively encouraged to get to know each other.' Is her other line in this video. Does casual sex indicate polyamory? If it did everyone would be classified as such so, no. That scene tells me that she is open minded when it comes to sexual experimentation at least. (Which again, changes for this scene but not for others.)
My issue with this scene and my statements in the past that it contradicts what she said before comes from her ending things when you sleep with others. ( I might add the breakup still happens if you decided to pursue someone else that isn't Halsin after the Mizora scene even if you tell her first.) Its not that she might be the way you claim her to be but the way it was handled/written.
The scene and the writing in it are a clear (to me) example of a late addition to the game that goes against what was established throughout multiple conversations you have with her throughout act1/2 and partly 3.
I mentioned this before but if a scene popped up out of nowhere in act 3 where Wyll was saying that he was cool with killing innocent refuges/civilians it would stick out the same way Mizora scene does.
Didn't see that edit. so here's mine - Yes the option 'I want to talk about our relationship' and establishing what the player wants (and if that's possible with this character) would've been a great addition but then again this game lacks so many things, especially in the writing department. (I don't think there is a single character in this game that was well written, the focus was obviously on making them waifus/husbandos.)
No, it doesn't frustrate me that people have a different experience than I do. If you want a mono SH you can have that. (and it's pretty easily
If do I have a frustration when RPGs devote lots of energy to evil paths *when that takes away for the main path*. Steam numbers tell us that 70-90 % of players go for the good path and I dislike what I see as waste of time that reduces my content.
But that doesn't apply here - I think I got my money's worth with BG3 even as I have some critiques. I got hundreds of hours and I never have to see the evil content.
Let me return your question to you - does it bother you that SH can kill the nightsong and pour her blood on the statue of Selune in attempt to deepen the grief of a mourning mother? If not, why does her capacity for evil offend you less than her capacity for ethical non monogamy?
I shouldn't have to go through these gymnastics in order to avoid a character that could potentially ruin my romance for me. I don't even like Shadowheart (sorry for the blasphemy in this thread), but please, that's ridiculous game design.
To be honest I just found that by accident. I just responded to Halsin as if he was a quest giver and not a companion and it fell into place.
Again, I have no strong opinions about Halsin. I've never traveled with him and I was surprised to learn that some believe you have to travel with him.
I mentioned this before but if a scene popped up out of nowhere in act 3 where Wyll was saying that he was cool with killing innocent refuges/civilians it would stick out the same way Mizora scene does.
If you've read my comment you know that I think this was foreshadowed / hinted at in the wine sharing conversation. I even provided some youtube links to that conversation. That conversation was in the very first EA release so I've been expecting this for 3 years. "not tonight" is not a hard no. A died in wool monogamist would have given a different response.
So this doesn't stick out for me at all.
You are correct that there is contradiction in the dialogues - does Shar encourage casual sex or no? She did at one point but she lost the portfolio of seduction to Sharess. At the same time SH was raised by Viconia deVir so casual sex might have been then norm in the BG cloister.
If they were to remove one of the two dialogues I think I would remove the "no sex" one - simply because of Viconia's influence and because it works well in this scene.
And I think there's another subtext to this conversation -- an indication that Tav's cheating is moving SH back towards Shar. "so it seems like you are actings just like the asshats that raised me. Perhaps you are more Sharran than I thought you were. I guess I'll forgive this but I expected better from you"
There's an even more glaring contradiction in the Dror Ragzlin - mind flayer conversation. Depending on when you interrogate the corpse you are either certain in infected you or are certain it did not.
Let me return your question to you - does it bother you that SH can kill the nightsong and pour her blood on the statue of Selune in attempt to deepen the grief of a mourning mother? If not, why does her capacity for evil offend you less than her capacity for ethical non monogamy?
Her capacity for evil offends me not for the same reason I will never have her go full evil. Because the only truly evil act she performs here out of her own will is take the Nightsong's blood. Which I agree, is actually very petty of her. But we're all capable of pettiness, and she wanted to impress her evil goddess.
She ends her storyline as Dark Justiciar with you having abandoned her to Shar while you were the only person that could've saved her. She's literally begging Shar to forget not only her murdering her own parents in frustration, but also forgetting that you did that to her. After that, Shar made her forget what it is like to be a good person again; back to square one, except now she's even more of a religious zealot based on position of power.
It fits well. I really like the writing, but I find it dark enough that I will not dabble. I can't do that to a person, fictional or not. The writing about any kind of non-monogamy, on the other hand, in its current state is inconsistent. I've said many times already that I would be content if it was written to make sense so long as a full-mono playthrough didn't get impacted. I still wouldn't dabble, just like her evil path, but I'd be fine with its addition.
But as it stands, a full-mono playthrough isn't impacted (with the exception of Halsin's self insert/flirting, for those that bring Halsin along), however the writing of these half assed attempts at having her fit Halsin as a out of character cameo are inconsistent and don't make sense.
If you don't dabble why are you hiring sex workers? Why are you cheating with Mizorra? Avoid those situations and you will never have a SH who is open to sharing. You don't have have hire the twins. You can say no to Mizorra. And if you rescue Wylls father while defying Mizorra you never have the option to cheat.
You don't have to see that anymore than I have to see evil SH.
Don't cheat, don't try to open the relationship and you will have cinnamon bun romance.
I mentioned this before but if a scene popped up out of nowhere in act 3 where Wyll was saying that he was cool with killing innocent refuges/civilians it would stick out the same way Mizora scene does.
If you've read my comment you know that I think this was foreshadowed / hinted at in the wine sharing conversation. I even provided some youtube links to that conversation. That conversation was in the very first EA release so I've been expecting this for 3 years. "not tonight" is not a hard no. A died in wool monogamist would have given a different response.
Lets not get into this again shall we? I think you'll find that your logic remains flawed no matter how many times you bring this up. Repetition does not make something correct. The game disagreed with you. Stop arguing with the game about how to interpret that scene.
why does her capacity for evil offend you less than her capacity for ethical non monogamy?
Because her "capacity" for ethical non monogamy is intristicly tied to Halsin
Halsin is only non monagamous because Larian needed an excuse for him to shapeshift into a bear and rail Astarion
It's also tied to the sex workers and Mizorra. Ugh. Bear sex. No. Nope. *barf emoji*
At the end of the game, she doesn't bring up wanting to visit Halsin (a trip to the druids Grove as you put it) She doesn't say anything about adding anyone else or wanting anyone else in the relationship. So those optional 5 minute porn quests have no consequence on the actual relationship.
You can headcanon all you want, but at the end of the day, she ends up with Tav only and there's nothing to indicate there's anyone else sexually/romantically included in this.
Ok, I'm going to bed now but please do go into into it Rabbit. I want to hear your logic behind the stance you have taken. I have read all of your (and others) comments but you'll have to forgive me when I say I like dancing one on one, that's why I'm asking you these questions. (so keep some of those answers for me) Have fun with others tho.
I'll respond to your post tomorrow. (of course this site doesn't have a sleepy emoji)
If you don't dabble why are you hiring sex workers? Why are you cheating with Mizorra? Avoid those situations and you will never have a SH who is open to sharing. You don't have have hire the twins. You can say no to Mizorra. And if you rescue Wylls father while defying Mizorra you never have the option to cheat.
You don't have to see that anymore than I have to see evil SH.
Don't cheat, don't try to open the relationship and you will have cinnamon bun romance.
The beauty of a videogame that has save & load functionality is that you can ask "What if" and find out as well. That doesn't mean that "What if" should be answered with an inconsistent out of character reply. That can just as much ruin immersion as any unavoidable inconsistent out of character reply can (such as her current reply to finding out about the Dark Urge's past from Gortash).
Edit: Especially because we're on the internet in a day and age where everything is shared. I did not even know this issue existed because I did not "What if" these situations in my playthrough. I came to these forums to share a different opinion regarding a completely different subject that nobody seemed to agree with and thus just ignored (which I have nothing against), and then found this topic.
Edit2: And there is still the issue of Halsin forcing the conversation on you if you so much as have him in your party. That, most of all, needs removal. Entirely, no questions asked.
[q Stop arguing with the game about how to interpret that scene.
I'm not arguing with the game, I'm arguing with the people who have head cannoned SH into a monogamist. I'm with YOU. In my POV you are arguing with the game. I'll be happy to stop bringing it whenever others stop saying that the SH was mono only in chapters 1-2 or they start acknowledging that the sharing the wine comment was a really question about sharing partners.
I'll be quiet when you and others are - what I won't do I just submit to your flawed interpretation. And lets' be clear - we both have interpretations. You aren't a divination wizard, you can't cast true sight.
Unless, of course you are and you can. In that case: where did I put my car keys?
Besides I was talking to Rosten. Happy to have you here but I'll shut up when you do.
At the end of the game, she doesn't bring up wanting to visit Halsin (a trip to the druids Grove as you put it) She doesn't say anything about adding anyone else or wanting anyone else in the relationship. So those optional 5 minute porn quests have no consequence on the actual relationship.
You can headcanon all you want, but at the end of the day, she ends up with Tav only and there's nothing to indicate there's anyone else sexually/romantically included in this.
She doesn't exclude it either - be strange thing to bring up then wouldn't it? Right now you are both homeless. Time to think about getting off the streets and then you can think about Saturnalia.
At the end of the game, she doesn't bring up wanting to visit Halsin (a trip to the druids Grove as you put it) She doesn't say anything about adding anyone else or wanting anyone else in the relationship. So those optional 5 minute porn quests have no consequence on the actual relationship.
You can headcanon all you want, but at the end of the day, she ends up with Tav only and there's nothing to indicate there's anyone else sexually/romantically included in this.
She doesn't exclude it either - be strange thing to bring up then wouldn't it? Right now you are both homeless. Time to think about getting off the streets and then you can think about Saturnalia.
The only thing that matters is the information we are given by the game. So if it isn't included, then it doesn't matter. What you are doing is headcanon.
I could say that at the end of the game she wants to become a circus clown, but if she doesn't mention it herself, then it doesn't matter and isn't canon.
The only thing that matters is the information we are given by the game. So if it isn't included, then it doesn't matter. What you are doing is headcanon.
I could say that at the end of the game she wants to become a circus clown, but if she doesn't mention it herself, then it doesn't matter and isn't canon.
As are you. For the xteenth time. You, my friend, are arguing against the material in the game. Lol. Lolercoaster. With all due respect you are leaning into the weakest part of your argument because YOU WANT THE GAME MATERIAL TO BE CHANGED.
Sorry I have to shout that - but you, my friend, are the one being cut with Occam's razor
SH is hints at being open to sharing chapter 1 and that is confirmed in 3. Sorry you don't see that
Like, I'm not gonna go to bat for Halsin's writing, because a lot of the late addition writing could've used a couple more drafts and passes, but this thread is wild in its ability to Olympic level leap to conclusions
To say Shadowheart is strictly monogamous, that she isn't game for sexual partners outside of Tav isn't supported by the narrative. She gets real into the drow twin scene whether Halsin is there or not, like, that's in the game, you can't argue with that.
You (royal you) don't have to like it, which is totally fine, but to ignore aspects of a character because you don't like them and then say they don't exist is insanity.
Like if I'm to be uncharitable, it really just feels like a lot of this thread is upset that this idealized, waifu version of the character you imagined doesn't mesh with the actual narrative
I'm not arguing with the game, I'm arguing with the people who have head cannoned SH into a monogamist. I'm with YOU. In my POV you are arguing with the game. I'll be happy to stop bringing it whenever others stop saying that the SH was mono only in chapters 1-2 or they start acknowledging that the sharing the wine comment was a really question about sharing partners.
The game does blatantly contradict you in the very cutscenes straight after your misinterpretation, with every single outcome possible. They ALL say you're wrong. That means you're arguing with the game. She is mono only in act 1 and act 2. This is factual, your misinterpretation of a single scene to have it fit your own roleplay session does not change that.
The game said A. You heard B. The game then gave you A. You double down on it being B, because you don't want A. You want B, at least in this situation. You're free to see it that way, but don't use it as an argument.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Besides I was talking to Rosten. Happy to have you here but I'll shut up when you do.
This is accurate, and I apologize, I should've just kept quiet until they replied to it.
The fact is that your argument is nothing but headcanon and has no basis in reality. It's not even interpretation, it's headcanon - completely made up in your head. You have given nothing concrete to support your argument. You have given subtext that you've imagined have any meaning, that just doesn't have any. You add things to the game that aren't even actually in it. And 99% of the people here disagree with you.
Until there's a scene at the end of the game, where SH says they should include others or are actively already including others, then her and Tav are in a monogamous relationship canonically. Because optional porn doesn't change the ending and adding things you imagined doesn't count.
The fact is that your argument is nothing but headcanon and has no basis in reality. It's not even interpretation, it's headcanon - completely made up in your head. You have given nothing concrete to support your argument. You have given subtext that you've imagined have any meaning, that just doesn't have any. You add things to the game that aren't even actually in it. And 99% of the people here disagree with you.
The content in the game exists. It's there, you can make choices that lead to it. Like @gray_sparrow said you cannot argue that it does not exist in the game. It's unfortunate that you find it so objectionable that you want it removed and to have the player experience damaged for the people that like or are okay with it, but it's also behind player choices that you will never make so your repeated appeals to how it doesn't count is strictly limited to you and people like you who will never make choices that cause them to count. Other people do and you should be able to acknowledge that reality. No one is arguing that your interpretation is absolutely incorrect the way you are arguing that the interpretations supported by existing content is absolutely completely made up.
Of anyone in the thread, Red Queen's repeated appeals for us to respect the interpretations of others applies most to you.
The optional porn stuff is in game. Yet it doesn't affect the ending of the game in any way, so it doesn't matter. Tav and SH are still going to live on a farm. And no where in the ending does it even hint there's others included in their relationship. That is the canon ending. Are you arguing that isn't how the ending goes?
The fact is that your argument is nothing but headcanon and has no basis in reality. It's not even interpretation, it's headcanon - completely made up in your head. You have given nothing concrete to support your argument. You have given subtext that you've imagined have any meaning, that just doesn't have any. You add things to the game that aren't even actually in it. And 99% of the people here disagree with you.
Lol. You want three interactions REMOVED so it fits with you interpretation. I don't think the rabbit with 4 scenes on their side is the one lacking evidence. Physician, heal thyself.
The truth is we are both 'headcannoning" which to say we are both interpreting ambiguous material. You think I am seeing things that aren't there I think you are blind to things that are there. Think you are only attending to surface of the text you believe I am hallucinating. But I also think you are hearing voices.
But let's be clear - chapter 3 supports my conclusions and refutes yours. That, if your words, is "reality". Again, using your own words "you add things to the game that aren't even actually in it" Apparently at some point SH says "let's be exclusive" Apparently she says "I'm a monogamist" Either I missed that or you, good Backinstyle, are the one hallucinating.
And to be clear this is meant to playful but I also think you are SO VERY WRONG. So wrong it makes me giggle. Which is why I'm still here I guess, this is great entertainment.
The optional porn stuff is in game. Yet it doesn't affect the ending of the game in any way, so it doesn't matter. Tav and SH are still going to live on a farm. And no where in the ending does it even hint there's others included in their relationship. That is the canon ending. Are you arguing that isn't how the ending goes?
You do realize that just because people are open or poly, that does not necessarily mean they always have multiple partners at once, right? Especially in the case of a person like Shadowheart, whose boundaries include being each other's primary partners. Being open/poly doesn't just stop being true of the person when secondary partners for whatever reason exit the relationship or don't work out.
Your read that she's monogamous is true of your experience with the game and your ending(s). It is not necessarily true for others who chose to pursue the relationship opening up. As I've said to you in the past, your idea of what counts or not "because it's optional" or "because I don't consider it canon" is totally immaterial to how other people interpret the character development because they are not you and do not necessarily share your content filters. You need to at least accept that much because right now all you're doing is projecting that anyone who thinks otherwise is objectively wrong for how they've interpreted it.
The content in the game exists. It's there, you can make choices that lead to it. Like @gray_sparrow said you cannot argue that it does not exist in the game. It's unfortunate that you find it so objectionable that you want it removed and to have the player experience damaged for the people that like or are okay with it, but it's also behind player choices that you will never make so your repeated appeals to how it doesn't count is strictly limited to you and people like you who will never make choices that cause them to count. Other people do and you should be able to acknowledge that reality. No one is arguing that your interpretation is absolutely incorrect the way you are arguing that the interpretations supported by existing content is absolutely completely made up.
Assuming you're referring to the wine scene debacle, the problem with saying it's open to interpretation is that it was only open to interpretation until it played out.
If someone says they're going to punch you, you can interpret this in different ways. The most logical is of course to assume that they indeed mean to punch you. But if you wish to interpret it differently, and assume they mean something else, that's fine. Depending on context, that can be a logical thing to do.
However, if they then proceed to punch you, it is no longer open to interpretation. It happened. Claiming anything otherwise is choosing to be ignorant of the fact that it happened.
Originally Posted by Auric
Of anyone in the thread, Red Queen's repeated appeals for us to respect the interpretations of others applies most to you.
With the above said, I don't think he's out of line. The word misinterpretation exists for a reason.
Lol. You want three interactions REMOVED so it fits with you interpretation. I don't think the rabbit with 4 scenes on their side is the one lacking evidence. Physician, heal thyself.
He doesn't want them removed to fit his interpretation. He wants them removed to fit what played out before, and continues to play out after, these scenes happened. That's not interpretation, that's fact. Again, you have 5 minutes of optional content that has no consequences. We have 2 hours of unavoidable content that does have consequences that states those 5 minutes are wrong. It is clear as day which is to be considered inconsistent, and which is not.
Personally, I just want it removed or changed to fit what played out before and after. But I do agree that removal is the far easier solution, because it takes a lot less time and people aren't happy with Halsin anyway so no need to compromise Shadowheart anymore if Halsin gets changed in the first place.
I'm just going off what I see in game. When you romance her, it doesnt include other people in her main romance. If they wanted her to be polyamorous, it wouldn't have been something optional, but something they would have made absolutely clear.
The fact that there's no consequences, no cause and effect, to doing the optional porn stuff is very telling. They should have done an ending where that stuff has actual consequences on their relationship, if they wanted it to look like it matters. But alas, they did not.
To be fair, they have shown they don't actually care about polyamory anyway. If they did, they wouldn't basically equate it to an orgy. They would have actual, meaningful poly relationships but they don't.
However, if they then proceed to punch you, it is no longer open to interpretation. It happened. Claiming anything otherwise is choosing to be ignorant of the fact that it happened.
Yes! I like that metaphor.
I know the horse is dead but I'm going to hit it one more time and see what happens.
Yes, yes, yes. The response "not tonight" in reference to sharing with others could simply refer to wine. Or if we're really stretching it could mean "I only do monogamy" and will only "share a bottle" with one other person. But since Shadowheart later says (in paraphrase) "not with the twins tonight, let's wait until we've had sex with each other first" and then she says "sure, lets be with the twins and, hey, let's add someone else" the clear pattern, the punch that has landed, is that Shadowheart is open to sharing.
To belabor - "not tonight" wine, "not tonight" twins and then okay tonight is the night let's invite even more people to the party. Tells me that the "threat to land a punch" was a real threat indeed.
With the above said, I don't think he's out of line. The word misinterpretation exists for a reason.
It's about the general argument about the characterization as a whole. In that sense Backinstyle has as correct an interpretation as anyone else at this point. The problem is that he is going out of his way to repeatedly deny the validity of any other interpretation up to and including saying existing content doesn't count as part of valid interpretation. That's not misinterpretation, that's just trying to shut down other opinions.
In my estimation if the romance goes there and the player commits to it then that's part of the romance for that playthrough, and it won't go there for every player or playthrough thus the different experiences and interpretations. He has with 100% consistency denied the validity of every reason anyone has brought up for interpreting Shadowheart as even just open to the idea of poly much less how people might interpret her after she says she's okay sharing and then continues on to say she enjoyed it.
On that note I'm not interested in debating logical vs contextual/interpretive reading with you as we both already know exactly where that brick wall is because we've already run into it before.
Why would the writers convolute the scene like that? That's just unnecessarily confusing for ppl, if they went with anything other than the obvious here. Most ppl here, and Im sure most ppl in general, know she was simply talking about the wine. Anything else is just overly complicated for what the scene is: just a simple date night together sharing wine.
The words "not tonight" are such a common thing for ppl to say to one another. I have no idea why you're considering this as an argument. Like oh no they used the same two words together, it must be a conspiracy! Lol
I have no idea why you're considering this as an argument.
~Personal Interpretation~ just as your interpretation is personal to you. For instance I clearly don't agree with your interpretation, but I also don't agree with KillerRabbit's about the wine dialogue because I have a mysterious THIRD interpretation (it's not that mysterious I talked about it yesterday). Imagine how many different interpretations there are between MILLIONS of individual players who do not aggregate how they read dialogue based on what other people find objectionable or not. You should not presume to speak for "most people".
Let me try to explain this differently. In writing, there are things called plot lines. Now when we choose to romance SH, that main romance and its content only (without anything optional), becomes plot line A.
Now the optional porn stuff doesn't even become plot line B because it doesn't actually have any plot. Plot requires cause and effect; a beginning and an end. The optional stuff does not have this. It has no effect on you or the relationship. The ending of the game proves this. Therefore it can't actually be considered a part of the story at all. No plot, no story.
It's just something there for entertainment, but has no actual value.
Why would the writers convolute the scene like that? That's just unnecessarily confusing for ppl, if they went with anything other than the obvious here. Most ppl here, and Im sure most ppl in general, know she was simply talking about the wine. Anything else is just overly complicated for what the scene is: just a simple date night together sharing wine.
Because good writing is multi layered. And that's the way flirting works. Words that mean one thing in one context mean another thing in the context of flirting.
Let's talk about a truly great writer.
When I first went to college I thought the love of Shakespeare was snobbery. "Oh, yeah, some old dead white guy. People just think he's great because he's difficult to understand" But good bhaal was I wrong.
The truly wonderful thing about S. - besides his amazing vocabulary - is his ability to sandwich in multiple layers of meaning in just a few sentences. When you really get into S. you will find 2, 3, 4 layers and -- in the case of one sonnet -- 5 layers of meaning. In a single sentence! I've never seen his equal. It's stunning. And of course you ask yourself - am I just imaging this? Can there really be 4 levels of meaning in this sentence?! But then you ask yourself "do I ever find 4 layers of meaning with any other author"? And why do so many scholars agree that there are layers of meaning?
Let's take an example not from a play or poem but from his will. S. left "the second best bed in the house" to his wife. What did that mean? On one level - the surface - it told her what bed she was getting. On another level he was admitting to his infidelity. Now the bit that is debated is: was it an insult or not? Some people argue that it was - he was taking a swipe at wife by telling her that the dark skinned sex worker he liked to visit was the better lover. Others say it was a kindness. In his time, the best bed in the house was reserved for guests and the married couple slept in the second best bed. So perhaps S was saying "I always returned to you, she was just a guest"
One short sentence - three layers of meaning and the third level could mean one two different things but was left deliberately ambiguous. He was amazing. Better than anyone else. Well, perhaps he was a shit husband but his way with words . . .
I won't cost that much to rent Sideways. Do it. Once you start seeing layers of meaning in words new worlds will open to you. You won't be confused, you will have found a new source of pleasure
I have no idea why you're considering this as an argument.
~Personal Interpretation~ just as your interpretation is personal to you. For instance I clearly don't agree with your interpretation, but I also don't agree with KillerRabbit's about the wine dialogue because I have a mysterious THIRD interpretation (it's not that mysterious I talked about it yesterday). Imagine how many different interpretations there are between MILLIONS of individual players who do not aggregate how they read dialogue based on what other people find objectionable or not. You should not presume to speak for "most people".
However, if they then proceed to punch you, it is no longer open to interpretation. It happened. Claiming anything otherwise is choosing to be ignorant of the fact that it happened.
Yes!
I know the horse is dead but I'm going to hit it one more time and see what happens.
Yes, yes, yes. The response "not tonight" in reference to sharing with others could simply refer to wine. Or if we're really stretching it could mean "I only do monogamy" and will only "share a bottle" with one other person. But since Shadowheart later says (in paraphrase) "not with the twins tonight, let's wait until we've had sex with each other first" and then she says "sure, lets be with the twins and, hey, let's add someone else" the clear pattern, the punch that has landed, is that Shadowheart is open to sharing.
To belabor - "not tonight" wine, "not tonight" twins and then okay tonight is the night let's invite even more people to the party. Tells me that the "threat to land a punch" was a real threat indeed.
Fine, I'll indulge you. Here's the facts about what actually happens. Not what happens in your mind, but in the game. I will, for the sake of clarity, quote the entire conversation, including all relevant dialogue paths (optional dialogue that can be skipped past will have an (O) in front of it, different choices numbered (1) and (2)). This is all so you understand how badly you interpreted this scene for the sake of your own headcanon in the case of no other companion being involved, and how badly you ignored character development in the case of another companion being involved.
If you go to Shadowheart without going to another companion first: Shadowheart: Share a bottle with me? (O)Tav: Just a bottle? (O)Shadowheart: It's quite a bottle. I liberated one of the finer vintages earlier. (O)Shadowheart: Best enjoyed someplace private, I think. Tav: I'd be glad to. Shadowheart: We should wait a little while. Until the others have drifted off. Tav (1): Not keen on sharing with others? Shadowheart (1): Not tonight. OR Tav (2): I'll find you after everyone's turned in for the night. Shadowheart (2): Best not keep me waiting, I'd prefer not to entertain myself...
So lets ignore what actually plays out for now. In that sense, it's still open for interpretation. The optional dialogue is you hinting at wanting sex with her. This cannot really be interpreted another way. She doesn't want that, as is implied by the dialogue. Her saying "best enjoyed someplace private" is irrelevant, because it will be repeated in the non-optional dialogue.
You then agree to sharing a bottle with her. She mentions that she wants to do it after the rest has gone to sleep. You ask if she doesn't want to share it with others, OR you simply agree. She says not tonight, OR she tells you not to leave her hanging. Again, lets ignore what actually plays out. She wants to wait with sharing the bottle until the rest are asleep. You wonder if she's not interested in sharing it with others. The logical, most basic interpretation is that you simply ask if she's not interested in sharing good wine with the rest of the folks at the party, and she implies she wants to share it with you alone. She's asking you on a date. However, here you can also interpret it as her asking you for more.
However, the only, and I mean ONLY, way you can interpret the "not tonight" in a sexual way, even if you think her proposition is sex, is by interpreting it as you implying that you want a full party orgy and she doesn't want that tonight. This already makes ZERO sense, but remember we haven't looked at what actually happens yet, we're still interpreting.
Which we're stopping here. It's reality check time. You start the long rest. The scene plays out. It's a first date. You share a bottle, just as what was implied, said, and now done. There is no sex, in fact a second attempt made to make it so is shut down again. Any interpretation of "not tonight" meaning more than just sharing a bottle at the party is therefore, completely, and utterly, wrong. And it was already a massive stretch.
If you go to Shadowheart after going to another companion first: Shadowheart: Share a bottle with me? Tav(1): I'd be glad to. Shadowheart(1): I won't keep you long - I gather you've already made plans with someone for your evening. OR Tav(2): Just a bottle? Shadowheart(2): Just a bottle. I think you have other plans afterwards - wouldn't want to keep you. Shadowheart(2): ...Well, maybe I would. But first come, first served.
(Both the above lead to these 2 replies)
Tav(1): I've arranged for some... company, yes. It could be a long evening. Shadowheart(1): There - some liquid courage. And try to get some rest too if you can; tomorrow's another day. OR Tav(2): Maybe those plans could change, for the right person... Narrator: *Shadowheart says nothing, but the glimmer of interest in her eyes is unmistakable.* (O)Tav: I don't suppose you'd consider some sort of shared arrangement? (O)Shadowheart: Not tonight. Tav(2): I'll find you later, once the camp's asleep. Shadowheart(2): Best not keep me waiting. I'd prefer not to entertain myself...
So she knows you have plans, but she's still interested in sharing the bottle with you. If you tell her you are going to honor those plans, she does EXACTLY what she says she will and said she will in the dialogue where you don't go to another companion first: she shares the bottle with you, but now on the spot.
If you indulge her interest, you get to ask her if she wants a shared arrangement. This heavily implies a threesome. This time, the "not tonight" is her saying she's not up for that tonight. She wants a night just with you. As we know, she doesn't even want anything sexual in the first place. However, you can interpret this "not tonight" as her being open for a threesome with that origin companion another time. Regardless of you asking for this, the rest plays out the same as before. You get your first date, nothing more, which means she never meant to share anything more than a bottle with the rest at the party, which is also shown by her sharing it with you on the spot if you double down on going with the other companion.
So that leaves the question of the interpreted interest in a threesome - everything else, you misinterpreted.
Well, guess what. We know what happens with this, too! Screw interpretations, bring on the facts.
Just like I said many, many posts ago, this implied threesome is with another origin companion. And do you know when else such a proposition with other origin companions is made? In act 2. Up to 5 times, including with that same origin companion. And she shuts all of them down. Because she, if she was ever interested in the first place (this is left to interpretation), is no longer interested in it (not left to interpretation, because she shuts the idea down even with the very person that you suggested it with in the first place). This is because she's now in love with you. It's not about asking you for a first date anymore to see if she really likes you. It's her actually really liking you, and thus no longer even considering the idea that she may have considered at the party. She's entirely, utterly, mono at this point, and wants only you. That's the character development she went through. Assuming anything other than that is insanity. Just like me making this post was insanity.
Therefore it can't actually be considered a part of the story at all
Originally Posted by Auric
~Personal Interpretation~
You can't go into writing structure and technique with this either because tons of writers absolutely want their readers to have fun with their own interpretations of things. Even in the rare case when an audience does get the Word of God from the writer Death of the Author exists for a reason; because sometimes authors aren't just inconsistent in their writing, but inconsistently remember their own writing because humans aren't static entities and how we see things differs between each other and over time. If I argue with you about the content of the ending this will just go in the same damn circle because you've already made clear that if you personally define it as optional that means NO OTHER PERSON IN THE WORLD is allowed to let it affect how they interpret character development which is, pardon my language, absolutely RIDICULOUS.
Every Origin character (arguably except Karlach) can end the game as two completely different people in terms of their beliefs and convictions, with TONS more nuance between those primary two results based on your choices and relationships with them. There is simply too much to point at any of it and say "only this one thing is correct." It is just as correct to say that Tav doesn't know what Shadowheart's relationship preferences are in a playthrough that you never approach or learn anything about her romantically in which case it would be presumptuous to call her EITHER mono or poly because in that playthrough you simply don't discuss the subject with her at all. It is designed first and foremost for individual players to make their own judgements calls about pretty much everything choice-based. You've made yours, and others have made theirs, and others are not all going to have judged the same as you do. This should not be so difficult for you to understand. No one is asking you to find any way you possibly can to justify why you're right, because everyone already accepts your interpretation is valid. What people are asking is that you accept their interpretation is also valid. If you can't consider what others think as valid, you have no reason to engage in discussion with them other than to shut their opinions down. Mich isn't exactly super open to other interpretations being expressed either the way he constantly tries to find logical fault in them.
For the record, I have most certainly used analogous innuendo to carefully suggest something about myself to another, when I'm not sure how they'd react, or when I don't wish to be overt about the topic (especially a personal or sexual one). I don't, personally, think that the wine dialogue was intended to be double layered (I don't believe Larian has the authorial skill to do that deliberately), but I also don't think that reading it as such is unusual - If I were Shadow in that scene, and spoke so, I'd definitely understand and forgive a person who read more into it than I intended to put there, if it wasn't my intention to imply that information.
Everyone here is working with a personal interpretation and reading of the scene - Everyone Everyone here is working with incomplete information - Everyone
We actually do not know - none of us know - whether that scene was intended to be multi-layed in its meanings or not. We don't have that information, and we may never have that information. the idea that there may have been more to it than the face-value words spoken is entirely reasonable, but it's also not something we can prove or disprove, short of an official comment from her writers.
Everyone needs to acknowledge this and to admit that how they see a scene, and what they feel it shows, or does not show, and especially what they take a character to mean or not mean by the things they say, is Not in any way an objective truth or fact. - Everyone
It's been warned about that trying to tell other people that their opinions about the meaning of a scene are invalid is not acceptable. Treating other posters in condescending or belittling ways when they do not see things your way, or do not agree with you, is also not appropriate; several folks here have been doing that, and I'd like to ask you to please stop... it takes away from the discussion.
Therefore it can't actually be considered a part of the story at all
Originally Posted by Auric
~Personal Interpretation~
You can't go into writing structure and technique with this either because tons of writers absolutely want their readers to have fun with their own interpretations of things. Even in the rare case when an audience does get the Word of God from the writer Death of the Author exists for a reason; because sometimes authors aren't just inconsistent in their writing, but inconsistently remember their own writing because humans aren't static entities and how we see things differs between each other and over time. If I argue with you about the content of the ending this will just go in the same damn circle because you've already made clear that if you personally define it as optional that means NO OTHER PERSON IN THE WORLD is allowed to let it affect how they interpret character development which is, pardon my language, absolutely RIDICULOUS.
Every Origin character (arguably except Karlach) can end the game as two completely different people in terms of their beliefs and convictions, with TONS more nuance between those primary two results based on your choices and relationships with them. There is simply too much to point at any of it and say "only this one thing is correct." It is just as correct to say that Tav doesn't know what Shadowheart's relationship preferences are in a playthrough that you never approach or learn anything about her romantically in which case it would be presumptuous to call her EITHER mono or poly because in that playthrough you simply don't discuss the subject with her at all. It is designed first and foremost for individual players to make their own judgements calls about pretty much everything choice-based. You've made yours, and others have made theirs, and others are not all going to have judged the same as you do. This should not be so difficult for you to understand. No one is asking you to find any way you possibly can to justify why you're right, because everyone already accepts your interpretation is valid. What people are asking is that you accept their interpretation is also valid. If you can't consider what others think as valid, you have no reason to engage in discussion with them other than to shut their opinions down. Mich isn't exactly super open to other interpretations being expressed either the way he constantly tries to find logical fault in them.
At this point you are just outright ignoring all logic and arguing facts. If it doesn't affect the story, it doesn't matter. There is no interpretation here. That is how plot works, for a fact!
If the optional porn stuff mattered the writers would have shown it did! That is fact. Stop trying to gaslight me. I learned about story structure and plot in high school, this is something most ppl are taught.
In all of the other plot points, there is cause and affect. There isn't with any of the porn stuff. It makes no sense that there's no change in the ending for it. Therefore, we must conclude that it's not considered to be part of the actual story, unless they add an ending for it. Because that is how plot - writing stories - works. And you cannot dispute this. It is fact. Trying to say otherwise is completely nonsensical.
If you indulge her interest, you get to ask her if she wants a shared arrangement. This heavily implies a threesome. This time, the "not tonight" is her saying she's not up for that tonight. She wants a night just with you. As we know, she doesn't even want anything sexual in the first place. However, you can interpret this "not tonight" as her being open for a threesome with that origin companion another time. Regardless of you asking for this, the rest plays out the same as before. You get your first date, nothing more, which means she never meant to share anything more than a bottle with the rest at the party, which is also shown by her sharing it with you on the spot if you double down on going with the other companion.
So that leaves the question of the interpreted interest in a threesome - everything else, you misinterpreted.
Well, guess what. We know what happens with this, too! Screw interpretations, bring on the facts.
Just like I said many, many posts ago, this implied threesome is with another origin companion. And do you know when else such a proposition with other origin companions is made? In act 2. Up to 5 times, including with that same origin companion. And she shuts all of them down. Because she, if she was ever interested in the first place (this is left to interpretation), is no longer interested in it (not left to interpretation, because she shuts the idea down even with the very person that you suggested it with in the first place). This is because she's now in love with you. It's not about asking you for a first date anymore to see if she really likes you. It's her actually really liking you, and thus no longer even considering the idea of what at the party would've been a casual threesome. She's entirely, utterly, mono at this point, and wants only you. That's the character development she went through. Assuming anything other than that is insanity. Just like me making this post was insanity.
(My emphasis added)
This is very helpful, thanks! We are discussing a video game romance. We're all mad here
To use some words you suggested recently. Would you reply to this sentence "would you like a punch in the face"? With: "not tonight"? Perhaps. But if you did you would probably be making a joke. You'd be playing with irony. Because (with very rare exceptions) people don't enjoy being punched in the face. The answer to that question is "no". No, you want don't be punched. You wouldn't say "not tonight" which implies that perhaps you wouldn't mind if I asked the question again on Saturday night.
While this is likely to get me accused of 'flooding' poly comments again - I was once with someone who kept mentioning another person she had a great sexual relationship with. After they were mentioned about 5 times I asked her if she wanted to involve them and the answer was "not at this point, it would be too confusing". But later . . .
So, yes, my interpretation is influenced by life experiences - and Auric and Niara are correct to emphasize that we ALL interpreting - all of us. Humans are flawed creatures and we are forced to interpret the world through the limits of our experience. Hell, we can't even see in the dark! In my experience it's not at all unusual to for a relationship to start with two people and then expand.
I agree with Auric - one SH's boundaries is that she MUST be primary, she is unwilling to be the secondary in the relationship. As someone who is usually the secondary in relationships I found the "spare lover" a bit insensitive but think the author meant it to be coming from a place of pain. In my interpretation - SH who has just had her entire reason living taken from her at the time she commits to the relationship - is looking for an anchor, she needs rock to stand on. But, once her feet are on solid ground, once she feels secure, once she knows Tav won't abandon her she's happy to explore. Backpacking rules apply - establish base camp before you explore.
What is obvious is that "not tonight" was said twice - once in wine conversation, once with the twins and then "tonight" happens.
Btw, how did you extract that text? That was very helpful
To use some words you suggested recently. Would you reply to this sentence "would you like a punch in the face"? With: "not tonight"? Perhaps. But if you did you would probably be making a joke. You'd be playing with irony. Because (with very rare exceptions) people don't enjoy being punched in the face. The answer to that question is "no". No, you want don't be punched. You wouldn't say "not tonight" which implies that perhaps you wouldn't mind if I asked the question again on Saturday night.
While this is likely to get me accused of 'flooding' poly comments again - I was once with someone who kept mentioned another person she had a great sexual relationship with. After they were mentioned about 5 times I asked her if she wanted to involve them and the answer was "not at this point, it would be too confusing". But later . . .
Not relevant at all to the conversation, is it? This isn't what plays out. You are comparing apples to oranges. Stick to the apple we're discussing.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
So, yes, my interpretation is influenced by life experiences - and Auric and Niara are correct to emphasize that we ALL interpreting - all of us. Humans are flawed creatures and we are forced to interpret the world through the limits of our experience. Hell, we can't even see in the dark! In my experience it's not at all unusual to for a relationship to start with two people and then expand.
We indeed all interpret things. Interpretation stops being relevant when facts are out there. I've shown you the facts. Now it's your turn.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I agree with Auric - one SH's boundaries is that she MUST be primary, she is unwilling to be the secondary in the relationship. As someone who is usually the secondary in relationships I found the "spare lover" a bit insensitive but think the author meant it to be coming from a place of pain. In my interpretation - SH who has just had her entire reason living taken from her at the time she commits to the relationship - is looking for an anchor, she needs rock to stand one. But, once her feet are on solid ground, once she feels secure, once she knows Tav won't abandon her she's happy to explore. Backpacking rules - establish base camp before you explore.
Nothing is written in the game to support this, therefore you are making this up. Or do you have evidence from the game to support this claim, and to support who you think she's "threatened" by, and who not?
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
What is obvious is that "not tonight" was said twice - once in wine conversation, once with the twins and then "tonight" happens.
Then you are free to explain to me why she'd be okay with it in act 3, but not act 2 with the very companion she was potentially interested in doing it with in act 1. Go on, I'll wait (I'll see it later, going to be gone for a couple hours). I've posted the entire thing. All the facts are laid bare. And no, I don't want to hear "she's a primary" and thus "threatened", because that's all made up. I want actual proof from something in the game, not in your head.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Btw, how did you extract that text? That was very helpful
I am a serial saver. I have saves for a lot of different scenarios, in case I want to indulge in "What ifs", romance different companions without having to start a new playthrough, et cetera. I played them out again, typed out the text, that's it.
And here we are again. "I interpreted it a certain way based on my lived experience" met with "well screw that, the game the way I read it says no and that's factual" even when the game absolutely has content explicitly saying yes. What value is there to this type of discussion. Notice the lack of a question mark there.
And here we are again. "I interpreted it a certain way based on my lived experience" met with "well screw that, the game the way I read it says no and that's factual" even when the game absolutely has content explicitly saying yes. What value is there to this type of discussion. Notice the lack of a question mark there.
You're saying I read actual cutscenes that play out to explain what was meant the wrong way? Should I remind you again that your, and my, interpretation become irrelevant when the meaning is explained by the author? Stop arguing with facts, please, and explain to me why "yes" is said in act 3 when "no" is very clearly said in act 2, even regarding the very companion "yes, but at a later date" was implied with in act 1. With in-game facts, not what's in your head.
Anyway, gone for a while. I hope you two can find some evidence in game to back up your claims meanwhile. Maybe John did leave you some random clue that I and everyone else skipped over.
You would have to either make things up or again draw meaning from nothing. Even if she were secretly poly this entire time with hidden messages about her that apparently a small percentage of people can see, it would still be deceptive and silly on the writer's part in the first place. Neither of these scenarios are good at all. The only time the game explicitly suggests that she's poly is... Halsin, which still remains inconsistent with what majority of people doing her romance will see, and nothing is ever going to change that.
Not relevant at all to the conversation, is it? This isn't what plays out. You are comparing apples to oranges. Stick to the apple we're discussing.
Isn't it? "Not right now" is not absolute no. This human said not right now just as SH said not tonight and then later said "yes, let's have the twins AND Halsin" For you there's a disconnect between "not tonight" and "okay, tonight" for me there is no such disconnect. Because I've been in an analogous position - not to sharing now became a yes to sharing later. It's relevant.
I'm inviting you see the world through my eyes. You have an opportunity to think "how does someone who is not like me view the world"?
Again - not tonight.
Tav:"Do you want to play BG3 together?"
Shadowheart: "Not tonight, let's play scrabble" Does that Shadowheart never wants to play BG3? Is Shadowheart a monogamer? Will she only play scrabble and no other game?
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I've shown you the facts. Now it's your turn.
Lol. You have not. I repeat - you want to change "the facts" The facts A) are that SH drinks wine with and then kisses Tav in the morning. Yes, those are facts. The idea that his makes her mono is your interpretation. I don't agree.
Indeed you would like to change "the facts" - to have "facts" removed from the game - the fact that she flirts with Halsin, the fact that she expresses a desire to sleep with Halsin, the fact that she is fine with Tavsleeping with Halsin, the fact that she sleeps with Halsin, the fact that she is okay with Tav sleeping with the twins, the fact that she sleeps with the twins, the fact that she forgives your infidelity with Mizzora.
Thems the facts mam.
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Nothing is written in the game to support this, therefore you are making this up. Or do you have evidence from the game to support this claim, and to support who you think she's "threatened" by, and who not?
Perhaps you could extract the dialogue for the exit from the Guantlet of Shar? She's lost everything. The ground beneath her feat has shifted. She's trying to get her footing.
I think she's in a vulnerable position - would you not agree?
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Then you are free to explain to me why she'd be okay with it in act 3, but not act 2 with the very companion she was potentially interested in doing it with in act 1. Go on, I'll wait. I've posted the entire thing. All the facts are laid bare. And no, I don't want to hear "she's a primary" and thus "threatened", because that's all made up.
Fine. I don't want hear that she's obviously mono but here we are - when the thread is locked we will no longer have to listen to one another. I think the difference is that I and some others acknowledge that we do not have god level ability to discern truth from fiction while you claim to have supernatural powers. And good on you. Please use those powers to make me rich and beautiful.
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I want actual proof from something in the game, not in your head.
Why do you think so many people are mentioning that it ALL in everyone's head? All of it? All of us? Is this some conspiracy against you? Do we all have tadpoles and mentally agree to make the same point? Or perhaps you and I should listen to the chorus?
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Btw, how did you extract that text? That was very helpful
I am a serial saver. I have saves for a lot of different scenarios, in case I want to indulge in "What ifs", romance different companions without having to start a new playthrough, et cetera. I played them out again, typed out the text, that's it.[/quote]
I have to ignore this person I can't take it anymore the constant gaslighting based on their own personal feelings instead of what's in the game. I will not have my opinion of her poisoned by you people. She is not poly. I will not accept her as poly. I do not care what optional scenes they shoehorned in the game for her for degenerates like her writer. They are fanfiction as far as I am concerned and I will never accept them as part of her character.
Stop arguing with facts, please, and explain to me
I'm kinda shocked KillerRabbit has stuck with the argument so long considering how you continue to demean lived experience coloring interpretation as irrelevant. Again, god forbid people think differently, interact with and understand a videogame differently. There's no value in acquiescing to your demands. I will not stop "arguing with facts" because the ROLEPLAYING VIDEOGAME is open to be interpreted however a player wants and the content does exist supporting it, that's one of those facts you're so fond of demanding. You're hung up on what you see as inconsistency, and that's fine for you. I'm not because I like to insert more of my real life experience into the interaction than you seem to. You seem to see every dialogue as nothing more than the written words with no subtext, implication, insinuation, or innuendo, no room for characters to reconsider if it isn't explicitly presented to you in plain text in the scripting before your choices initiate it. I don't see it that way (especially since Shadowheart in particular is as fond of intentional vagueness as a character ever gets in the game). I don't believe most authors would see it that way which is not a statement of what you think of authors, just that I personally believe, specifically in this case, they wrote it with intent to be interpreted by the audience.
So tell me when the brick wall starts to give, I guess.
It's also very interesting that the people who most vehemently deny the validity of any non-monogamous reading are now going around accusing people of gaslighting and degeneracy. They aren't being told they're wrong, they aren't being told to change their views, they aren't being repeatedly challenged to empirically prove their experience deserves to be acknowledged by people with no intent of ever doing so, and they've been told repeatedly that their interpretation is valid. But that is the degree to which they deny similar validity to any other experience or interpretation besides their own. And that is where the argument will continue to stem from.
Lol I know right. Like it's blatant porn without plot: "A piece of erotic fanfiction with little to no regard for characterization or plot"
It is merely there for entertainment. They could remove it entirely from the game and it wouldn't affect your relationship with SH, because it has no actual value. You still get the same ending lol
But congrats to those who think this makes for great polyamory representation I guess.. being equated to nothing but an orgy.
I believe this thread has lost the plot beyond redemption and is now just reports and bickering every other post - it's lived its due course.
I am not going to time anyone out but I do ask you collectively to reflect on why I say enough is enough and refer back to the multiple attempts Red Queen has made to explain what kind of attitude and behaviour we expect from you and to one another.
If the same attitude repeats from the same users in other threads, we may find it necessary to take further individual action.
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. Yes, I vastly would have preferred Helia over Halsin or in fact any character, that didn't change personality completely, if you recruit them, but yeah, mostly Helia.
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