I'm asking what is cheating?

I've seen a report on blackjackplayers that use a system of counting cards to make millions, but the casino cals it cheating.

Now I think this is not cheating. Cheating is when you have information that other players don't have (x-ray glasses). But with theire system they just used the information given to em, any player has the same information only it's processed in an other way.

Now if i convert this to PC cheating:

Cheating is if you use a program thats enables you to alter information.
But this is not cheating, exploiting a bug (endless crystal in crystal bag) since every player can do it and it's in the rules of the game as given by the developers so this is exploiting a weakness but not cheating agreed?

Is this a good assumption?

In Diablo 2, is maphack cheating? Everyone benefits from it...

Übereil

if the software delivered by the developer allows this it's not cheating it's just using code that already in the game (no 3rd party program is needed) it's an exploit and the developers should fix it in a patch but its not cheating.

In my opinion, cheating is "breaking the rules". The rules must be agreed upon by all players. A maphack is cheating unless all players agree to it. Ability hacking is cheating, unless all players agree to it. Sleeping with someone other than your partner is cheating, unless all three people agree to it. On any massive-multiplayer game, any modification is cheating unless they are listed in the game description.

It all depends on who writes the rules. If everyone wants to change the rules, so be it, but if only one or a few change or break the rules, that is cheating against the others. Also, different rule sets must remain separate forever. Just because your character got +138 Plate Armour without breaking rules in that game, doesn't mean you can legally shift them into a game with different rules where that couldn't happen.

So in your opinion is the sytem those students used cheating? They followed the rules of the game and were just stopped because they were winning to much and the casino disn't want to play any more.

also doe you consider the portable bed a cheat?

That's really weird. In my philosophy, counting cards and remembering what card has already passed by are part of the gameplay when playing a cardgame! I mean, how else are you gonna play whist, for instance?

basicly this was the stategy:

Blackjeck => you can stop at any time but the dealer has to go to 17 before he can quit.

So if the dealer has 16 he has to take an other card. Now if you know that the previous hand a lot of small cards were taken out of the game you know the chance is greater that the dealer would get a high card so you stop early because of that and let the dealer go bust.

Theire strategy:

2-6= +1
7-9=0
A-K-Q-J-10= -1

Now you ony have to remember 1 number and add or subtract from it. You start with 0. if the number gets positive the chances are greater that the dealer would hit a hight card and go bust.

Example
You see the following cards pass: Q-5-K-4-9 == -1+1-1+1+0 = 0 now if you play long enough you have a statitical number that when positive the odds of the dealer going bust are higher an negative the odds of the dealer staying under 21 is greater.

Finally the casino kicked every player out they suspected of card counting. (they identified em with the geekisch looks and the concentration it takes to follow the cards and calculate the number (you can't start talking to your neighbor or you'll lose track))

It is at least for those cheating who don't have such a strong memory.

I don't think I would be able to do that - depending on the type of card game.

I don't think that's cheating. They are just using information that is there for everyone. But that's not really a game, is it? Rather hard work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

I usually don't exploit bugs in a game, since I always play single player games. I feel this is cheating in a way as it is just a mistake the programmers made. It's not in the sense of the game and it would destroy the atmosphere.

My morale in this matter is a bit strange though. So what I sometimes do is use a cheat to achieve something which I feel I deserve but can't get in an honest way. As an example in Gothic I inserted one of the swords which I had found but somehow lost. When I couldn't find it I cheated instead of reloading and replaying some hours.

Cheating is when an action performed by a person is illegal and can be proved, or is obvious. Counting cards can't be proved EVER, since it's in the persons head and is just chance and statistics. Using a maphack can be proved as the software can be located on the cheaters PC.

But casino's, gameservers are property from a peron/firm. They can set the rules as they wish and interpret them as they wish. If a casino decides to remove a player, they can for any reason. In fact I believe every gambler should be pointed on that fact.

Online games cheating? if the admin decides he's cheating, then the admin can do what he wants as it's his server, if Blizzard decides any external programs or bug exploits used to cheat is cheating, it's their right to deny you to play the game, on their servers. (battlenet)

Yep but there are still too much online gamers who are cheating on the Blizzard Battlenet.

Barta

Yup. I think most of the dupers start out by using the 'harmless' maphack.

Which isn't harmless. PK'ers track down their targets that way. People can see the gear you're wearing. Is that good? I haven't been hacked yet thankfully.

Oh yeah, and if you DL maphack from the wrong site you'll probably get a free keystroke logger so some bugger can hijack your account. That's always fun... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mostly, I think cheating is just lame. If you want to do it just do it single-player but even then its still stupid as you should beat the game properly or if you've done it over and over play something else.

I'd never dream of cheating online as it:

a) affects other players, usually detrimentally
b) will get you banned

Also hackers and cheaters are the reason why Diablo 1 is unplayable online and you have to pay to play WoW. Oh well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Cheating in real life is even worse. We all hear the amazing stories of card counters who fleeced millions out of a string of Vagas casinos but you never hear about the ones who are buried out in the desert do ya? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, cheating multiplayer sucks (playing CS when someone's useing all the hax IS useless since yoiu can't do ANYTHING).

But if you whant to do it singleplayer, then shure, go ahead. And if it makes the game funnier to play, I can't really see any harm in it.

Übereil

Cheating against the computer i dont mind.... cheating against another human (or living organism, since i feel half the "people" on this planet cant be human <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) is just a sign of your unworthyness....

THe only cheating i do is at jugsaw puzzles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> (that i do professionally)

Some of you have a misconception. I'm not talking af entering cheat code or programs. But exploits

For instance if you notice int the gam MMORPG or RPG a that you can duplicate items by usind a bug in the game (not changin files of the game) now thats an exploit that you can take advantage of and you can't call it cheating because you follow the "bad" rules of the game as written by the programmers.

(remembers IIS from Microsoft) Professor found a bug that allowed the surfer to enter the server just by entering it in a browser. He mailed it to microsoft with code to exploit it included. He mailed 10 time and waited 6 months. No word from microsoft. Then he placed it on the internet en it was one of th most used hack-trick.

In that case, it would be Microsoft's fault, imho. He mailed it to them, but if there is no reaction, then it's their fault, imho.

But before putting it on a web-site, I would've mailed it to a *serious* magazine or to BugTraq or so, just to make sure the security-related persons get it first.

I've used the 'marrowalk bug' for quite a while now in D2.

I call it a 'feature'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

What bug? Since I'm gonna start again...

Übereil

There's no advantage in calling poeple cheaters, most won't mind and just target you (more)... get proof (screenshots etc..), and warn the admins, case closed imo.

Besides you can't complain about CS and Battlenet anymore, accounts get banned, anti-cheats aren't all that bad.

There's a bug with the elete boots 'marrowalk' which allowed the necromancer to get a free 33 point synergy to bone spear, bone spirit, teeth etc. Any item with 'charges' of a spell on it (in this case lvl 33 bone prison) will act as if the points have actually been put into that skill as far as the synergies are concerned. In this case 33 points!

As you can imagine the bonus damage is very good. (about a 2000pt increase in bone spear damage. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> )

Marrowalks are very difficult to obtain though... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Now those bugs in games is what i affectionately call easter eggs.... you hunt them out, and EAT them... the whole game through <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> its fun, it makes you feel like you are stealing apples (i like that adrenalin rush feeling, when i am doing something that would make anyone else lift their eyebrows)

In BD, i used the skill duplicate trick extensively, until they fixed it (darn, but also better i suppose) i also dont have any problems with changing files <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

In multiplayer games.... NO WAY..... i am as honourable as .... as..... as... hmmmm ok, i give up.... i AM honourable <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

To the original question:
[color:"orange"]I've seen a report on blackjackplayers that use a system of counting cards to make millions, but the casino cals it cheating.[/color]

If the system they worked out runs on an electronic device for example, then I would call this equivalent to using a 3rd party program = cheating;

If the system worked on several individuals playing together (in memorizing and telling each other), I would also call it cheating, as the concept of the game is individual versus bank.

If however they worked out a system that one individual (trained possibly) could apply without any artificial or outside help - then I would say he outsmarted the casino, which then would have to change the rules, but cannot prosecute him for cheating.

In PC-games, taking advantage of bugs is IMHO not cheating, however the concept of the developpers merits some respect. Classic example here is the two potions/three sick people concept in DD. The game designers intent is clear - but people could not live with an unsolved quest, be it only for maxing XP-points at all cost - is stealing the potion back and curing the 3rd person really ethical?

Indeed, but in the real world I think he would end up in the alley behind the casino stuffed into the dumpster.
Pretty much banned from there anyway. I've heard of that happening.

I agree however, he wasn't cheating. He just figured out the game. I personally just wouldn't piss off the Vegas casino owners. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Since i worked in a casino for a long time, i can tell you what the odds are of you being able to "count cards"

If you have a casino that still plays with the old "shoes" you have to cope with 7 packs of 52 cards. (364 cards) if you are able to remember what cards and how many of them are out, you will only be able to win on the last 10 hands at MOST, more likely 5.... the casino wont see this as a big threat... (or hasnt in the years that i was there and i worked in the privé with all your big players. No one was ever accused of counting cards / cheating by counting cards.

Most casino's now use "shuffle stars" An electronic show that shuffles the cards constantly, and after every hand, the dealer puts the "used" cards back into the shuffle star to be shuffled and added to the pile again. No, a shuffle star only uses 5 packs 260 cards, but they are CONSTANTLY moving around. There is absolutely no way you can even have a clue as to what cards are up next, and there is no end to the "shoe" for 24 hours!!!!!! (they then change the cards, and the shuffling starts over). The shuffle starts also get swopped around every 25 days with other tables (the punters dont know which table they move to - and the casino replaces their sequences often too - this changes the shufle intervals.

What i HAVE seen, is when they play old shoes (games like baccara still uses them), there will be one player on the table, who is either not playing(or playing minimum bets the whole night), but giving "advice" to his friends / coleages. THey are considered card counters, and is likely to get warned if the casino notices a big difference in winnings on that table at the time. The next time he tries to do that, he will either not be allowed to participate in the game, or will be banned for 48 hours (if you get 3 bans like that, you get banned for a full year. and the bans are effective in ALL casino's in that state / province.

thats the beaty of the system it doesnt matter if you play with 1 deck or 8 decks. Granted it takes longer for the system to work but you just have to play till you get a positve value and then start betting larger ammounts. But indeed only works if the dealer doesn't suffle the decks but I think that doesn't happen alot.

I believe that the only safe whay to acually eartn on going to a casino is to first bet something like $ 1000. If you don't win, bet $ 2000. Then if you don't win, bet $ 4000, and so on. This whay (if you can afford it in the long run...), you will when you win, not only get all the money you've lost back, you will allso GET extra money you didn't have before (ie win money).

Übereil

ha the old double up system.

Yep that doesn't work. From our math teacher we got the assignment to write a simultion program that uses the double up system. I was down 5 000 000$ at the end since theore is always a limit. With the simulation (it was roulette black/red bets) but since every casino has a limit at the ammount you can bet you can lose alot of money.

That was because you didnät win. Cos you didn't win, right?

Übereil

the problem is with the double up system is that when you start with 100$ and the limit is 1000$

that means

100$ loose
200$ loose
400$ loose
800$ loose

woops you cant double up any more and you've lost 1500$

Yes... What if there's no limitations though?

Übereil

then you're save. But believe me all casino's have a minimun and maximum bet to undermine the double up system.

The house ALWAYS wins.... the rules are designed that way...

With Roulette, your payouts are 1 chip lower than the possible number of bets...

(beucause some people used to play a chip on everything, so they cant loose.... now you can still do that, but you loose 1 chip per spin)

The dealers shuffle the cards for 7 minutes after EACH shoe is finished.

If the minimum bet on a table is 100, the max will be 5 000 (but yea the idea is there, that the double up system doesnt work) Some people still use the double up system.... but if they lose, they lose BIG.

The max of each table can be changed by the pit boss, so on request you CAN raise the max of a table (but they wont do it for small-time players). They also wont do it on a normal casino-floor table. If you are playing in the privé, they will move you to a private(no access to any other players) / semi private (no access, but has windows so people can see in) room. In these cases, you will be assigned a fixed dealer (normally one of the better dealers, or "breakers" on roulette), once an hour, a relief dealer will come for 15 minutes, and then your fixed dealer will come back again.

The "breakers" on roulette, are dealers that can spin so accurately that they can nominate the "neighbours" of where the ball will land. If a player wins too big, they can change your dealer and put a breaker on. The rules of breakers, are that 1 in 3 spins they can "nominate" numbers or do a specific number roll.... the result, you lose that spin, the dealer will spin for a number you DIDNT bet on.

as i said, the house always wins....

except with blackjack the system those students worked out made it so that they had a 1% infavor of them instead of a 5% chance for the casino.

Congratulations to them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> if they are smart enough to beat the casino, they DESERVE to win <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

What system is this???? havnt heard of it before (probably because i am on the other side of the planet)

see page 1 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

It just that they play small ammounts when starting and big ammounts when the odds are in theire favor.

Card counting: This is not cheating. The casino is "reserving their right to remove patrons at their discression." Namely, they don't want to lose money. Also, these games are designed to be pure chance. With pure chance, the casino should come out on top. They want it to stay this way.

Portable bed: This was intentionally left in. Given that it is a single player game, this isn't cheating. There is no one to upset by using this exploit. If you found such an item in a multi-player game, it could be cheating because you are exploiting an obvious oversight. On that same note, leaving treasure chests open to make them weightless is an exploit and is cheating. In single-player, there's no harm because it's only you. In multi-player, that is blatent abuse of an exploit.

I LOVED that bed.... it just looked Snazzy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> I also loved the Sound organ... no function, but it looked (and felt) cool to have it in my backpack <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

for once, i'd like to cheat in Pazaak (the card game in KOTOR) as i have that feeling the computer is cheating. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] as i have that feeling the computer is cheating. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

Heh you maybe right there Jangg, but then I dont know any computer that doesn't cheat ...
still remember that marquee from MS fondly "Do you want to save"
option No or Cancel ..... that is cheating <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Hmm... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> I pick alternastive three...

Übereil