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Posted By: Morbo Evolution vs creationism - 02/08/05 05:50 PM
Bush: Intelligent Design Should Be Taught

Sometimes I don't understand those extremist that just ignore common sense.

Now I remember my science teacher saying "You should always examine every theory because if the theory is false it instant nobel price time".

So i have a fairly open mind. I've even read books that suggest that live on earth stated on Mars. But what all these books would have in common. They were scientific books that used FACTS to underline their case.

On the other hand we got a bearded man that created the entire universe in 6 days because he was bored. NO FACTS just FAITH

FAITH != FACT

Basicly what I am saying is sure there might be faults in evolution or the big bang theory but it's the best we got right now. (BTW natural selection is a FACT in the evolutionary theory Evolution isn't just about natural selection. Natural selection is just one piece. Evolution has three main components:
1) Mutation, the ultimate creation of diversity
2) Selection, which acts as a nonrandom filter to select certain mutations and remove others.
3) Drift, which is a consequence of a finite population size). My problem with people who believe creationism is that they completely ignore things like that the earth is more then 6000 years old (FACT) and tiny things as fossils. It's like arugueing with some one that believe the moon landing never took place.

Now I have been brought up in a Christian family. But in my opinion the values of the bible are the important parts (old testament is crap, I am a new testament guy). And then there are the hypocryts who use faith as a knife to get ahead politically.

Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 02/08/05 06:23 PM
The trouble is with facts is that somewhere along the line someones proves them wrong and we have another fact. The problem with faith is that it can't be proven. The problem with religon is that they believe is everyone other than their own followers are damned.

The bible is interpreted differently and is a collection of opinions, nothing more. People see the same event differently, some are better writers than others, and so on...
Posted By: Plowking Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 12:48 PM
The problem is that we have 1000's of years of religious fervour that will not be de-programmed in just a couple of hundred years.

Because we had little or no scientific knowledge back then to explain why we were here and where did we come from, religion/faith was born.

Most people need a reason to be, and a destination after they die, because to fathom the end is just nothingness is a bitter pill to swallow.

Personally that's exactly how I think it is. I have no religion, and don't believe in an afterlife or reincarnation.

...and I'm not 'lost', in need of guidence, depressed, sad etc etc.
I'm perfectly fine!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Evolution is the way to go!
Posted By: Ubereil Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 01:36 PM
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The theory of intelligent design says life on earth is too complex to have developed through evolution, implying that a higher power must have had a hand in creation.


Is it just me who feel this is the idiot's explanation of the creation of life, and is it just me who isn't really suprized that George W Bush is the president who feel this should be taught in school?

‹bereil
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 03:53 PM
If life is too complex to evolve on its own here, then its far more likey that other life forms (or aliens) tampered with the genetics of earlier life. This would also explain things like: The missing Link or paintings by cavemen of spacemen.

You have to wonder how we define a god? What is it, and what is the criteria of a god. What does it take to be a god then?
Posted By: Ubereil Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 04:15 PM
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The missing Link or paintings by cavemen of spacemen


What paintings <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />???

‹bereil
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 04:26 PM
The were paintings found in a couple of caves of people is space suits, and a flying disc. Can't remember where though
Posted By: NeroJB Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 08:09 PM
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The problem with religon is that they believe is everyone other than their own followers are damned.


Ok first of all sorry to be blunt but that is not true. Of some religions yes it is but not most.

[rant]

Now I have a little argument for the materialists in the crowd to consider...Creationism, I first of all do not believe that this is the case, I am not too stubborn to accept for example that the world is millions/billions of years old.

As background I have studied Biology, Chemisty, Physics quite alot I spent 3 years working on a Biology degree before changing my mind and getting one in Philosophy instead.

That said I do believe in evolution, not because it is a supposed fact (as mentioned earlier facts tend to be disproved) but because it makes sense and you can see the trends throughout our history. But consider the argument of intelligent design, a guiding hand aiding the development of life.

Picture this, a father is teaching his son to ride a bike, if he leaves the training wheels on he controls everything...the kid wont fall, he also wont learn. The second father tells his son to go outside and ride the bike...no training wheels no teaching. The third father goes out with his son and sets him on a bike while holding the seat eventually letting go and the child learns.

To explain: The first...creationism...contradicts modern sciencentific theory hard to justify a theory that contradicts what we experience. The second is evolution in the purely material sense of thinking. No guidance no help, likely to fail. The third, intelligent design, the creation of a system either constantly guided or set in motion by a divine being.(whatever that may be)

There is proof that Creationism is flawed, I do not believe that the world was for example created in 7 days ( I am catholic for reference) However I see nothing in modern science to contradict the idea of Intelligent design, I will admit that it is difficult if not impossible to argue against the idea, after all how do you prove that the system you are within is controlled, or not, from without.

That said I have already eliminated Creationism as a viable idea and we are left with two more. Lets take a look at a purely physical/material world. The idea is stimulating and very attractive at first glance. In theory with enough time and advances in our scientific capability we would know the future!!! Outrageous you claim? Impossible you say?? In a purely material world all things are broken down to chemical/physical/biological interactions/reactions. If all this is based on universal rules (i.e. gravity, reaction laws) all we would have to do is input a start point into the supercomputer in the sky and BAM!!! The future history of the world is at your fingertips...

If youve followed me this far I daresay please continue a little longer! That is not the most troubling thing to me...formulate in your mind your conception and ideas on things like Justice and Free Will. Seriously stop and Consider what you think of them, thier value. If all things are physical and all things are therefore based on predictable physical actions they cease to exist or at least cease to matter. If our actions are not based on choice how can we be held responsible for them? If we had no choice but to act as we did how can we punish people for what they do? They couldnt have done otherwise?? Free will in this case would exist only as an illusion, I daresay no one on this forum could logically and believably deny their own free will...

This all has lead me to believe that there is something spiritual in the world, there must be something that transcends the purely physical, I cannot refute that I make my own choices...after all I could have chosen not to write this at all!!

[/rant]

And top it all off with an appropriate quote!

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!" -- As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? -- Thus they yelled and laughed.
The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him -- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us -- for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars -- and yet they have done it themselves.

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"

[Source: Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125; Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.]

Posted By: Stone Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 08:33 PM
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and tiny things as fossils.


God has a strage sense for Humor, so he burried all the Fossils in the Mud after he has created the earth, and then he said, Ok, let us wait for the next 6000 years.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Posted By: NeroJB Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 08:41 PM
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Quote
and tiny things as fossils.


God has a strage sense for Humor, so he burried all the Fossils in the Mud after he has created the earth, and then he said, Ok, let us wait for the next 6000 years.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



That would be a creationists reasoning I believe...
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 03/08/05 11:16 PM
To me God is the initial event. No matter how much sience can explain things (12 dimentions that caused the big bang) you always have the question "Where did that came from?" God to me is the event that happend billions of billions of years ago that started it all. "Action 0" causes a reaction that causes action 1 that causes action 2 ... . Well this is nothing like "god created everything in 6 days" (anyhow how would you measure a day if he hadn't created light yet. ) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Raze Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 01:19 AM
[color:"orange"]That said I do believe in evolution, not because it is a supposed fact (as mentioned earlier facts tend to be disproved) but because it makes sense and you can see the trends throughout our history.[/color]

By definition, you can not disprove facts. You can disprove a theory or explanation, but if you disprove a 'fact', then obviously it was not a fact in the first place.

Evolution is a fact, since there are known cases within recent (in geological terms) history. The example I vaguely recall was a bird being introduced to an island by explorers a few hundred years ago, which developed a different beak to adapt to the available food sources (I think it became shorter and stronger, to break nuts which were tougher to crack than their normal food).

The issue with evolution is whether or not it can, in and of itself, explain all the observed diversity in the world. There are some scientists that question this, but I never bothered to look into their arguments.


[color:"orange"]However I see nothing in modern science to contradict the idea of Intelligent design[/color]

There is none, and there very likely never will be. In order to disprove intelligent design, you have to understand everything, to show that everything has progressed as would be expected from natural causes. Even then, our current understanding of all physical laws breaks down in a singularity. Despite various theories on what may have caused the big bang, or what may have existed before it, there is no way to prove them, so (as Morbo said) there will always be an opening for both creationism and intelligent design.


[color:"orange"]I will admit that it is difficult if not impossible to argue against the idea, after all how do you prove that the system you are within is controlled, or not, from without.[/color]

Philosophers have been doing so for eons....


[color:"orange"]If all this is based on universal rules (i.e. gravity, reaction laws) all we would have to do is input a start point into the supercomputer in the sky and BAM!!! The future history of the world is at your fingertips...[/color]

This was not an uncommon belief a hundred years ago, before the development of quantum mechanics. It is physically impossible to know all of the initial conditions, even if you had the formulas to plug them into.

Even on a non-atomic scale, there are systems which show extreme dependence on initial conditions (chaos theory). Even with a very accurate starting point, there are some things which are random or can not be measured, which can have a significant impact. With the weather being the most obvious example of a chaotic system, the common example of chaos theory is that a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a storm half way around the world.


[color:"orange"]And top it all off with an appropriate quote![/color]

That reminds me of a related quote;

"God is dead"
- Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882

"Nietzsche is dead"
- God, 1900
Posted By: LaFille Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 03:08 AM
Morbo, you please me with that subject! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />
It is a pain that I don't have the time to read & answer well yet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> But... I will be back soon!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

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The example I vaguely recall was a bird being introduced to an island by explorers a few hundred years ago, which developed a different beak to adapt to the available food sources (I think it became shorter and stronger, to break nuts which were tougher to crack than their normal food).

Such experiences & observations were made involving several species. What is the most perticular with the bird experiments that you talk about is that it was on those finches from the different Galapagos Islands (among a few other species) that Darwin funded its theory on the origin of species by the natural selection; and that confirmed it several times after.
Posted By: Stone Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 04:42 AM
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That would be a creationists reasoning I believe...


No, this is an atheistic sarcasm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LewsTherinKinslayer13 Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 04:55 AM
I believe in both. Ooh, Lews wins auto.
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 06:03 AM
To believe in a god, you have to define what a god is. If no one knows what a god is, then what is the point in believing in something you know nothing about?

For example, I could tell you that a swertixl exists, without knowing anything about a swertixl at all, how can you consider any aspect about it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: NeroJB Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 01:01 PM
Ill answer if we really want to get into the nature of God...but...lets stay on topic its a good one.
Posted By: Ubereil Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 04:38 PM
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[color:"orange"]However I see nothing in modern science to contradict the idea of Intelligent design[/color]

There is none, and there very likely never will be. In order to disprove intelligent design, you have to understand everything, to show that everything has progressed as would be expected from natural causes. Even then, our current understanding of all physical laws breaks down in a singularity. Despite various theories on what may have caused the big bang, or what may have existed before it, there is no way to prove them, so (as Morbo said) there will always be an opening for both creationism and intelligent design.


[color:"orange"]If all this is based on universal rules (i.e. gravity, reaction laws) all we would have to do is input a start point into the supercomputer in the sky and BAM!!! The future history of the world is at your fingertips...[/color]

This was not an uncommon belief a hundred years ago, before the development of quantum mechanics. It is physically impossible to know all of the initial conditions, even if you had the formulas to plug them into.

Even on a non-atomic scale, there are systems which show extreme dependence on initial conditions (chaos theory). Even with a very accurate starting point, there are some things which are random or can not be measured, which can have a significant impact. With the weather being the most obvious example of a chaotic system, the common example of chaos theory is that a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a storm half way around the world.


Maybe the tecnique of psyco history practised in The Foundation books by Isaac Asimov co0uld work in practise <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />. It doesn't dewal with what WILL happen, it deals with chances (like: there is a 90% chance that the imperium will fall within 50 years).

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[color:"orange"]And top it all off with an appropriate quote![/color]

That reminds me of a related quote;

"God is dead"
- Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882

"Nietzsche is dead"
- God, 1900


Good one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />. Even though I don't believe in god...

‹bereil
Posted By: Stone Re: Evolution vs creationism - 04/08/05 08:09 PM
I think everybody remeber the Poster from Fox Mulder, I want to believe"

This is the problem with the People who belive in creationism. They want to belive.
I belive in science, and if one theory is good enough that other scientists can proof it, and think it is right so i can belive at this theory.
Maybe after some years (or earlier) the theory has to change, or will complet throw over the bord.
Then i can belive in the next new theory, and can say, "ok, i was wrong but know there are better facts and greater knowledge."

I don`t "want" to belive, it is not so much importand for me. I don`t have reasons to hold an overtaking theory.

But by the creationist, there is a reason. God.

Normaly no problem, not for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> We live in a free Country and everybode can make a donkey out of him self if he want. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

But these people mean often that they have a mission. A mission to spread this holy knewledge all over the world. And i really dont like people who think that they can other people say what they have to belive.
I do not say that i have right in not beliving in god, maybe there is someday a bad awoke for me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> but at last, this will be a mostly positiv disappointment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 05/08/05 05:43 AM
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Ill answer if we really want to get into the nature of God...but...lets stay on topic its a good one.


Fair enough, what is the purpose of the design?
Posted By: NeroJB Re: Evolution vs creationism - 05/08/05 12:42 PM
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Ill answer if we really want to get into the nature of God...but...lets stay on topic its a good one.


Fair enough, what is the purpose of the design?


You know I have never been asked that, its a good question...hmm, at first glance I would say to promote life...but Ill have to think about it.

So did anyone catch the part about the loss of free will in a materialists world? How would you non-believers answer that?

Do you deny free will?
Do you accept that there is something beyond the physical?
Something else?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 05/08/05 01:18 PM
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Rather than offer you the illusion of free choice, I will take the liberty of choosing for you... if and when your time comes round again.
--G-man, Half-life≤--


That quote always bugged me since it suggested that everything you do in the game was predetermined. Scary it would be so in real life. That would mean that all the wars destruction diseases and suffering is determined by a higher being. I for one don't believe in being a toy of the gods.
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 05/08/05 04:03 PM
The one about free will is difficult. It would depend on time i suppose. If time isn't moving then there is no free will.

For example: If you could travel into the future 10 days, then then the future has always been there, since the beginning of time. If this is true then everying predetermined. If you could go backwards, then it's the same. If however, the future and the past do not exist on any level, then free will determines the next event.

I might be talking complete crap here, so many things are involved <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 05/08/05 04:44 PM
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The one about free will is difficult. It would depend on time i suppose. If time isn't moving then there is no free will.

For example: If you could travel into the future 10 days, then then the future has always been there, since the beginning of time. If this is true then everying predetermined. If you could go backwards, then it's the same. If however, the future and the past do not exist on any level, then free will determines the next event.

I might be talking complete crap here, so many things are involved <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />


Everyone knows from "back to the future" time spits in an other time line if you go to the past and change things or change things you know would happen by going into the future.

Unless you are folowing Futurama's pre destination rules from the "why of fry"?
Posted By: galadriel Re: Evolution vs creationism - 06/08/05 04:20 PM
I always found it interesting to go back in time, I could prevent the Hitlers' parents to have sex that night, I could arrange to win the lottery and I would find a cure for the diseases yet to come. But what if all that would turn out bad and I throw my future away?? Something to think about... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 06/08/05 05:54 PM
Well Futurama uses 2 different time travel rules

roswell that ends well seems to indicate of pre destination of the future when fry became his own grandfather while "the why of fry" indicates that you can change the future since he said to nibbler "scotty puff Jr" suuuuuucccccks . We see him then transported back now with a "scotty puff Sr". But in anthology of interest when fry changes his future not to be frozen the universe ends?

And then their are Terminator rules (why no clothes???) terminator 1 suggest pre destination since the man sent back was the father of the rebel leader. terminator 2 seems you can change the future since the nuclear war was averted when they destroyer the terminator chip. But where did the chip come from when the chip was needed for the trigger the nuclear war? Well terminator 3 suggest that it was enevatable and that terminator 2 with the chip of terminator 1 could have speed up the process.

Well back to the topic.

futurama had somthing of a inteligent design once in the episode goddafellows where the god being says this quote

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God: When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.


also bender interprets this as
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Leela: Oh no the monks. We forgot to let them out of the laundry room.

Fry: Do we have to? I mean they're monks. I'm sure their God will let them out or at least give them more shoes to eat.

Bender: Fat chance. You can't count on God for jack. He pretty much told me so himself. Now come on. If we don't save those monks no one will!
Posted By: NeroJB Re: Evolution vs creationism - 08/08/05 01:18 PM
Morbo you are amazingly efficient at getting off topic! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Cleglaw Re: Evolution vs creationism - 08/08/05 02:55 PM
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Morbo you are amazingly efficient at getting off topic! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />


It is the evolution of a topic, or did Morbo create it?
Posted By: Ubereil Re: Evolution vs creationism - 08/08/05 02:58 PM
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Morbo you are amazingly efficient at getting off topic! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />


It is the evolution of a topic, or did Morbo create it?


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

‹bereil
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 08/08/05 03:35 PM
Perhaps there is something beyond the psyical world but there is no reason to believe it is spiritual. There could be different planes of existance all over-lapping. Each one slightly influencing the others. Like in the book: The Talisman. Yeah, I know this is pure fiction (the book) but it's as reasonable as any other theory <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 08/08/05 04:19 PM
I wasn't off-topic that much I think. every post had a loose link to the thread.
Posted By: LaFille Re: Evolution vs creationism - 09/08/05 09:08 PM
I think it is a good thing if they teach in schools what the intelligent design ďtheoryĒ is and what it is based on, as long as it is made on an objective mind. Examining every belief & point of view is a good thing; it promotes open-mindness and forces people to be more acute towards the explanations & reasons that they take for granted. When it would become a bad thing would be if it was imposed as THE truth, condemning & without teaching objectively the evolutionism theory and the Facts on wich it is based too.
The problem with a lot of the big religions, and that is at the origin of the one with the creationism defenders, is that lack of open-mindness and that tendency to feel that they have to convert people to their view. The scientific method is: Here are the facts; what conclusion can we make of it? But the creationist one is: There is the conclusion; what facts can we find to support it? And what is also deplorable is that they spread major comprehension errors about what is really evolution.

As for the question about the origins, I agree that nothing will ever be found to contradict that life here comes from intelligent design, even if we come to be able to show that life can born out of inorganic matter by chemichal reactions. Pushed to that limit, theyíll always can say: ok, it can be; but what proves that itís what happened, and not that a superior being saw to it?
And about the initial event... my knowledge expectations donít go that far. What was there before the big bang? Where does the matter come from? We donít even know well what the world is made of... And it is not a question to wich I need an answer to the point of choosing one. Same for the question of whatís after death.

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So did anyone catch the part about the loss of free will in a materialists world? How would you non-believers answer that?


Free will can be explained in another way that does not contradict the materialist point of view and that also fits the evolution principle. Take what Erich Fromm states like the essential characteristics of the human condition: the decreasing of the instinctual determinism and the increasing of the brain. Manís decisions arenít taken for him by the instinct, he doesnít know automaticly where to go and what to do; he is conscious and has to make choices. And the consequences of that conciousness are the insecurity, helplessness and disorientation, wich Man prevents to get drown by by searching for answers to all those hard questions, that quest to have certitudes and the tendency to rely on religions. There would the cultural aspect come from. Man is a product of nature but would transcend it; he makes himself.


Now, see an evidence of the evolutionism (and how some people seem to have evolved less that others <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />):

[Linked Image]
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: galadriel Re: Evolution vs creationism - 09/08/05 11:50 PM
@ Lafille
Great evidence of the existence of the Bush-chimp!! I knew that animal existed somewhere, but I never saw any pics of it!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Stone Re: Evolution vs creationism - 10/08/05 04:05 AM
This is abusive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />
We can`t compare an intelligent creature with a stupid Animal.

So please LaFille excuse you by the Chimp <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Pic 11 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Virgo_Bluefire Re: Evolution vs creationism - 10/08/05 07:12 AM
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
i feel like im back at college reading text books again when i read some of these posts heh with some of this cited material and mobo jumbo <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

anyways if and when this super computer gets built and causes a war of machine vs human......then it will know it shall be terminated
cause it predicted from the molecules in my blood sample that i would bust it with a baseball bat <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

:P

in any case i would believe it to be healthy to strike middle ground, for if both ends of the cirlce do not meet then its not a circle at all :P

its a dot
Posted By: Cleglaw Re: Evolution vs creationism - 10/08/05 11:00 AM
Clearly Jacques Chirac could not be the result of intelligent design.
Posted By: Draghermosran Re: Evolution vs creationism - 10/08/05 11:23 AM
for more material to proof evolution and its flaws:

[Linked Image]
made this myself mind u.
Posted By: galadriel Re: Evolution vs creationism - 10/08/05 12:08 PM
@ Dragh
Now you have given me a new nightmare!! Poor mother of that creature!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I never knew that Bush sr. couldn't keep his hands of an Orangutan. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


edit: btw Dragh, good job! I would like to have one made of my mother in law looking like Hyacint Bucket! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LaFille Re: Evolution vs creationism - 10/08/05 09:06 PM
@Stone
Oh yes, I have so much remorse that this morning when I woke up I found out that I had I dissimulated banana rinds everywhere in the house during my sleep so I would slip (or at least get dirty) by stepping on it, just to punish myself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />
Or maybe was it just doggie who stole a banana and didn't like the rind... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

@Dragh
Good work! Just add the ears, and he could replace Mr. DoubleU when he's tired without anybody noticing it... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> (after a little shaving, of course; that must be his weekend-look <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> )
Posted By: MASTER_GUROTH Re: Evolution vs creationism - 24/08/05 09:34 AM
Quote
Clearly Jacques Chirac could not be the result of intelligent design.


I agree
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 25/08/05 05:22 PM
And finally New Rule: You don't have to teach both sides of a debate, if one side is a load of crap.

Now, President Bush recently suggested that public schools should teach intelligent design, alongside the theory of evolution. Because, after all, evolution is quote, "just a theory." Then the President renewed his vow to drive the terrorists straight over the edge of the earth.

Now, here is what I don't get. President Bush is a brilliant scientist. He's the man who proved you can mix two parts booze with one part cocaine, and still fly a jet fighter. And yet... yet he just can't seem to accept that we descended from apes.

It just seems pathetic to be so insecure about your biological superiority, to a group of feces-flinging, rouge-buttocked monkeys, that you have to make up fairy tales. Like we came from Adam and Eve, and then cover stories for Adam and Eve like, intelligent design. Yeah, leaving the Earth in the hands of two naked teenagers. That's a real intelligent design.

I'm sorry, folks, but it may very well may be that life is just a series of random events. And that there is no... master plan. But enough about Iraq. Let me instead restate my thesis. There aren't necessarily two sides to every issue. If there were, the Republicans would have an opposition party.

And an opposition party would point out that even though there's a debate, in schools, and government, about this, there is no debate among scientists. Evolution... is supported by the entire scientific community. Intelligent design is supported by guys online to see "The Dukes of Hazzard."

And the reason there is no real debate, is that intelligent design isn't real science. It's the equivalent of saying that the thermos keeps hot things hot and cold things cold, because it's a god. It's so willfully ignorant you might as well worship the U.S. Mail. It came again! Praise, Jesus!

No, stupidity isn't a form of knowing things. Thunder is high pressure air meeting low pressure air. It's not God bowling. Babies come from storks is not a competing school of thought... in medical school. We shouldn't teach both. The media shouldn't equate both. If Thomas Jefferson...

If Thomas Jefferson knew we were blurring the line this much between church and state, he would turn over in his slave. Now as for me, I believe in evolution and intelligent design. I think God designed us in his image, but I also think God is a monkey! God bless you and goodnight!

Bill Maher
Posted By: HandEFood Re: Evolution vs creationism - 26/08/05 02:30 AM
Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory
Posted By: Ubereil Re: Evolution vs creationism - 26/08/05 12:47 PM


OK, I'll try to comment this later. For now I will just sit in shocked silence.

‹bereil
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 26/08/05 07:01 PM
I noticed there was a lot of references to jesus and god in there. So where's their proof of that? All they are truely saying is:

1. that the theory of gravity is flawed.
2. We don't understand how it works.
3. Therefore it must be god.

Science has the hard part. It has to prove everything in order to gain support. Relgious people need no proof of anything, because they can always play their trump card... God.

Everything needed to create the universe, is in the universe.
Posted By: Raze Re: Evolution vs creationism - 26/08/05 07:22 PM
The Onion is a satire / spoof publication (website and short radio clips), not a real newspaper. I can see where you could miss that, though, since it is not funny.

The very first 'article' I saw of The Onion was funny, so I started going through the back issues and only found a couple that got up to slightly amusing. The few radio clips I've heard have just been stupid.
Posted By: xAcesx Re: Evolution vs creationism - 26/08/05 08:06 PM
You're right. There's nothing funny about it at all. I didn't read it all though, but I obviously didn't miss anything then. The funny sites in the other threads are better.

That site seems to have the same purpose as intelligent design <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Ubereil Re: Evolution vs creationism - 26/08/05 09:33 PM
...

So it is all fake? Seriouslly? They're not putting something THIS stupid up in American schools? Why didn't you say so right away <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />? I got nervous there! I even posted it in anouther forum...

‹bereil
Posted By: LaFille Re: Evolution vs creationism - 26/08/05 10:31 PM
Reminds me of the 1938 broadcast of Orson Well's War Of the Worlds... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: HandEFood Re: Evolution vs creationism - 27/08/05 06:29 AM
Sorry about the confusion! I think the Onion relies on their reputation as a satire for their articles. Of course a reputation is only as good as the distance it's travelled.
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 27/08/05 07:00 AM
Quote
since it is not funny.


ROFL

raze pwn3d The Onion. Satire is a very difficult thing to get away with. most satire sites are not funny.


Raze gains +2 respect in my book.

any way the onion is wrong. Newton law of gravity is a law meaning it has been proved and considered unbreakable (if you do find a flaw => nobel prize)

Thats why creationism is still bieng mentioned. Evoluion is not a law. you can't create a matimatical formula that when you implement it it comes out human after thousands of years.
Posted By: Morbo Re: Evolution vs creationism - 13/09/05 07:30 PM
Watch the daily show this week. It's the Evolution Smevolution week.

Daily show
Posted By: Lady_Rain Re: Evolution vs creationism - 14/09/05 08:29 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm at least THIS makes sense <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

(not to be against females... but its well done regardless)

Equasions of life.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Draghermosran Re: Evolution vs creationism - 14/09/05 09:20 PM
lol, it funnier when it says woman are evil, (root of evil <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)
Posted By: Lady_Rain Re: Evolution vs creationism - 17/09/05 02:52 PM
I cant say THAT about my own species!!!! so i'll just stick to the facts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
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